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Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your 

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host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance 

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marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing. 

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We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, 

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marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and 

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have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned. 

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Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of Always Be Testing. I'm 

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your host, Ty DeGrange, and I am really, really happy to have Chase 

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Messenie on our show today. What's up, Chase? What up, my brother? How are you? Good to be here. Thanks 

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for having me. It's good to see you. Yeah. Good to see you too. Thanks for having me. It's awesome 

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to have you and, feel like you've brought so much podcast 

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love, so much knowledge to so many communities. And, it's just awesome to 

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have you on the call and dive in with you and talk about all the things. Yeah. Hundred percent. 

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Very, very excited to do that. I appreciate you, having the gumption to wear the the 

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Padres hat today. It shows some shows some guts, and I appreciate that. Yeah. You 

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know, this is what we do. This is what we do. We, we try to poke our friends in the ribs to remind 

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them that, you know, just because you got more rings than us doesn't mean anything. We're still out 

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here. We're still fighting. Still in the arena fighting. It's Yeah. I love it. I love it, 

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baby. You, man. Awesome. Chase, for those of you who don't know, he's very active 

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in a number of amazing, growth, performance marketing, SaaS, and d to c communities. 

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He's the current CMO of Heatmap. He's been active and awesomely helpful 

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to a ton of folks, including myself, on d to c Twitter. 

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He's a b two b SaaS growth and performance marketing pro. Prior to Heatmap, he 

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was leading marketing for Pencil, awesome AI ad tool. He's 

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run performance marketing at brands like Guthy Ranker and Houzz, and so he's just got a wealth of knowledge. 

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I'm fired up to dive in with him today. Yeah. Thanks, man. I'm really excited. How'd I do? Yeah. Not bad. 

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Not bad. I I'm more impressive than I think, maybe. I think so. Chase, you you, 

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you talk a little bit about vibe check. I know it's a term that might get a bit of an eye roll, 

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maybe be a question mark for some people. Like, how would you define that, and how do you 

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kind of think about that when you collaborate with people and you talk to individuals? 

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Yeah. It gets an eye roll because it's not it's nontechnical. I'm doing air 

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quotes. There's a lot of things that go into that that are technical, which is, let's just say 

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it's a personal vibe check. Well, say you've been in the game 10:12, fifteen, twenty 

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years, you essentially have a certain amount of rigor around the people you associate 

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yourself with, both in terms of their kind of personality, but also 

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their rigor with which they employ kind of business practices. And so when I say vibe check, it's just a fun way of saying, does this person kind of 

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cross the floor of what your expectation of your inner circle would be on a personal 

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level in terms of business, or are they kind of outer 

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circle people? In terms of businesses, ecommerce is also especially interesting 

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across this because how much of an insular community even at the really scaled 

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enterprise levels it is. People are always watching what everyone is doing and 

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trying to get an edge or learn something new that they can take back home. So if it's them watching 

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rising seven figure brands and their nine figure, ten figure brand, they're they're trying to figure out what everyone is 

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doing. And so as one of their partners in growth across all of these 

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companies, you're essentially trying to say, hey. Look. We are absolutely 

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fantastic at what we do, I e, what our software provides, but we also make it delightful to spend 

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time with us providing said software to your company, whether you have some sort of 

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issue or you're trying to become part of kind of our marketing, you know, like, part of our 

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marketing sphere where we push your personal brand, etcetera, you're not gonna have you're gonna have a delightful experience either 

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way. And so the vibe check goes on your personal side, but it also goes on the business 

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side. And, I don't know how many deals I have won that have been say, okay. Well, I mean, you 

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can speak to this. How much you how many years we've been in business together? And it's been, hey. Maybe this 

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platform isn't giving me all the value that I can extract from it from a dollar ROI, but because we have a great 

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personal relationship, I'm able to know that I can extract said value plus have you as an add 

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on bonus to the value that I'm receiving from the platform. So I think Yeah. It 

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sounds nontechnical, but it one hundred percent is. It's just predicated on you know, I wouldn't 

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twenty two year old me wouldn't be able to have as good of an answer to that. So I was like, oh, it's just my it's my homies. We 

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we do business together. Now it is, do we all seem like we're pointed in the right 

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direction together and we are willing to only provide value? Like, that is the floor Yeah. 

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Of the ability to pass the by. You're touching on all sorts of great important things 

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that I think are are real real valuable. You know, there's the 

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saying of, like, you're not gonna hire an individual unless you can, what is it, be 

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stuck in an airport with them or something like that. There's a lot of these barometer 

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gut checks, if you will. And I think as you get more mature in your 

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professional career and you get more comfortable with your own gut check and your 

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own gut level assessment of things, And, obviously, you're looking at data. You're looking performance. You're 

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looking at all sorts of metrics as we do in our industry. I think it just is a 

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good reminder that one's gut is a really important data point that 

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sometimes I think as you mature and improve in your judgment, in your career and 

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in your life, becomes an even more valuable measurement. I think that, 

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what you just said is probably the most important one, which is this ability to 

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listen to your gut matures as you mature. And so, you know, you heard that 

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don't overthink through kind of thing, and I have done it many times. And so there's this old saying that 

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I heard from a filmmaker back in the day. So I'm repeating what he said. So if anyone wants to cancel me, this is from 

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him. It's not from me. It says if nine Russians tell you to lie down, you lie down. And the idea 

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is, like, if you're if you have, like, this very visceral response to any sort of situation, whether 

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it's, like, situation you've been put in, one that you go into with the person in interaction, 

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and you have a very visceral response to it, you should probably listen to that because you will either regret it later 

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or you'll regret it in the moment because you did it or you'll pay the piper kind of down the road. 

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Like, generally, generally, because people say don't listen to your don't listen to your gut. I 

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think when it comes to people, always listen to your gut. When it comes to partnering 

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companies, always listen to your gut. If it's just you versus you, that's another conversation because that's a whole host of other 

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things that we're not gonna deal with on your own personal psychology. But when it comes to kind of this 

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outward, the different spheres of influence that are kind of trying to attack the 

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inner castle, those things, I think, you can listen to your gut a little bit more. Inner castle, you 

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versus you, that's the whole, you know, talk to your therapist. That's that's not for us here. Yeah. We can provide 

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some recommendations for, pros, but we're not gonna dispense, legal, 

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tax, or psychological advice on today's Yeah. This is not therapeutic advice. 

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Maybe jumping to a more tangible topic Yeah. Perhaps. What would 

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you describe in a very simple terms? Like, you've really operated at a very high level in 

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driving marketing for b to b SaaS brands in the last last two roles with Pencil and 

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now with Heatmap. Can you distill it down into the really core of what 

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you what you do in your current role and your in your previous role? Yeah. So, 

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there's a lot of the whole technical. We drive leads. We do this. We do that. So the best way 

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I heard someone say they said it to me recently is they think of b two 

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b marketing as surround sound marketing, I e, you have to be 

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ubiquitous and ever present in everyone's minds. 

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And the idea is they won't be in funnel yet, 

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but the minute they are, you're the first person they speak to. And 

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so how do you do this? Well, there are multiple channels across organic that you can interact 

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with. There are multiple ways across paid that you can essentially kind of blend the numbers, 

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and there are multiple ways through product growth that you can do these things. And so my 

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job essentially is to look at kind of the different tranches of interactions with 

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people and understand where we can hit them that's gonna have the highest impact for today and the 

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future. And so, like, a a way I look at it is I've been working on this. This is early 

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stage. It's the first time I'm talking about this out loud. I've been working on this framework called, like, reasons to contact or or 

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RTC. And the idea is, like, what what spheres do people sit in that 

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allow you to contact them? And so it's like, there's your product, there's your organic marketing, there's your paid. And 

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people say that might be a little too, a little too simplistic in terms of the different spheres. 

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The way I look at it though is it's my job to understand the spheres, understand the 

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impact of all of the different the different activities we can do under those spheres and kind of benchmark 

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it against what we're trying to hit downstream and then take a couple big bets every 

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time we kind of go into that and have and have the vision for those 

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specific things. So TLDR. I like the surround sound. Yeah. TLDR. 

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You wanna essentially be ever present and ubiquitous in people's lives and have a kind of a 

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surround sound marketing approach. And it's my job to make those things happen, and there's gonna be 

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some really tactical stuff we can do. And then there's gonna be some stuff where you brute force it around some organic 

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things that aren't, quote, unquote, scalable, but will have a lot of impact, especially when you're starting out. So 

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Love it. There's some you you know, you listen to other podcasts, and we'll give you very, very, like, you do this, you do this, you do this. I think 

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Sure. That is so company and category dependent 

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that it's unfair to paint with such a wide brush. What I will say is you just wanna be on top of people's 

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mind. That's it. Yeah. So how do you do that? I like that. The surround sound 

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is a nice, I think, succinct understanding. And I I also wanna tip the 

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cap to you because I feel like with your work in your last, you 

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know, in your last few years, you have really, I think, cemented yourself 

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as a really trusted voice. You have you have shown just 

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awesome support, integrity, empathy, 

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marketing knowledge to the DTC Twitter community, to the 

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SaaS b2b knowledge community in terms of how you market, how do you go to 

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market, how do you think about growth, how do you how do you take action, You 

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kind of combine a lot of that into a pretty awesome like, 

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we joke and have sports analogies about Giants versus Padres, but you're kind of like a a good 

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athlete and a good player on the field and a good teammate, and I wanna wanna commend that. Oh, thanks, man. Thank 

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you. I appreciate that. Coming from you, it means, it means the world. I think the only thing we can 

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do is try our best to such a cliche analogy, but it's like Sure. At the 

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end of the day, the business is the business. You don't leave with 

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that scorecard. You leave it like, did I leave it all out on the field today? And 

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so forgive all the cringe, sports analogies Ty and I are gonna make. We're we're still in 

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the early innings. We're in the early innings of the podcast. Yeah. Grab grab a seat. Grab a 

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water. Corn. Yeah. Yeah. Grab a Bud Light. Maybe we'll have a seventh inning stretch. Sorry, guys. It's 

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just dad jokes all around here. Yeah. It's gonna inter 

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interweave sports, salary cap, free agency, performance marketing, 

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Twitter. It's gonna get it's gonna get weird. You name it, it's gonna yeah. Absolutely. Totally 

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weird. Well, probably People can only see our text message. Like, talk. Yeah. Yeah. We hopefully, those 

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don't don't get leaked. Yeah. I don't have to show a lot of data. I, 

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will spare you the Napoleon talk. We'll we'll see maybe maybe for another episode. There's 

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so much to talk about. And then, obviously, we'll get into some good stuff, not just 

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for our own amusement. I wanna come back to the front row, back row concept because I I think 

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it's interesting in terms of, like, people you associate yourself with. So maybe we'll put a pin in that 

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one. Sure. You dropped a a really good one on kind of what you do. Maybe 

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we talk a lot about learnings, you know, career, individual experiment learnings, life learnings. 

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Yep. As you kind of made this kind of progression from 

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running paid marketing in a consumer brand to really, like, building a 

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SaaS brand for what used to be the the consumer and the 

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the the d to c e com brand, and now doing 

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it, in spades for Heatmap. Can you discuss a little bit what that was like 

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for you? How did you navigate that transition? What do you maybe some of the 

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learnings you you gathered through that process? It's really easy to look back and connect all the 

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dots and say that, you know, this this map was incredibly linear, and it let it was always leading 

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here and all of these things. I think the the real truth of the matter is when you look back, it's 

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all kind of atoms exploding across the universe and, like, you just hit on something. You're like, oh, shit. I'm gonna double 

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down on said thing. I just worked really hard. 

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That sounds crazy. And I am a, I'm a learning machine. 

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And so if I you ask my wife, she literally hates it. If I don't, if I'm not 

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spending time with her or the kids, and sometimes when I am, I have an AirPod in and I'm listening to a 

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book or a podcast. If I'm not watching something with her or talking to her, I have my nose 

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in a book or I'm reading some sort of blog post. And the idea is 

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I have always felt, like, not the smartest person in the room, and I used to think that was a 

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detriment. Now I know it's a huge, huge benefit to me because it means I'm willing to work 

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harder than almost anybody. And so most people and it's 

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it gets cliche, work the hardest in the room. It really just comes down to the old Elon Musk. If I work 

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twelve hours in every a day and everyone else works eight hours a day, I'm getting however many 

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percent what what is that? Like, I'm getting fifty percent more work done every single day. So for every two days they work, I 

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work three. For every four days they work, I work what is that? I work five or six. And so 

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the idea is, like, well, if you're a learning machine plus you're willing to do more, what does that make 

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you, and what how does that compound over time? And so I always come back to the thing I tell myself all the time, 

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and maybe this is just me saying it to myself so I feel good about it. But Ben Franklin said, 

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compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world, or I'm paraphrasing a little bit. But this goes for anything that you're 

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essentially allowing to compound in the positive and the negative. So that's my macro 

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rant. In terms of tactically, what I did is I looked at the people 

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that I really respected, and then I looked at the people that they really respected. And I went and 

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figured out what where they went for their knowledge. And so one of the things you and I have 

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bonded on a lot is Reforge. And so Reforge was an incredible two things. It it it really helped 

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me have a base floor understanding of all of the component pieces. 

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What these companies have allowed me to do is have a playground with which to experiment through 

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all of the different learnings and figure out my version of them. Right? Like, frameworks are just a jumping off 

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point for all the things you figure out as you build and what becomes unique to you. 

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So I I frequently come back to those things to kind of reassess how I'm looking at things. You know, they 

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built an amazing product called Artifacts where it's a fun thing to go and look at other people's the way they look at things. 

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And the the funny thing is if you look at every single one, the heart of everything is kind of the same, but the way they do it is 

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different. And so you can kind of go and say, okay. I'm gonna Frankenstein all this shit and put it together. I think the 

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other big one is how have you done this? Well, I have a a 

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framework that I go with any job or advising or anything, which is, does 

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the problem excite me, and do the people challenge me? 

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And so the problem excited me. Yeah. There are a lot of exciting problems that you can 

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solve. But, like, do you think about it before you go to bed? Do you think about it when you wake up? 

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Are the people there make you feel like, oh, man, I've gotta really up my game because I'm not 

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even close to their level, and I don't think I will be for a long time. And so 

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those two things that requires a huge amount of humble pie to say, I know I'm 

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great, and I wanna be around people who make me feel like shit. Because it's people just wanna 

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feel good all the time. Right? It's it's a pretty natural state of being. So it's a very nontechnical answer 

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I just gave you, but, essentially, the the kind of the core thread of what I have said 

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is be a learning machine, understand who your influences are and 

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then what their influences are and go study their influences to figure out those things, and just rigorously 

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test every single thing that you can. I'm not a numbers person by trade. I've 

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turned I've become one. And really where I find my, 

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and I can I'm sure former bosses could tell you I'm not a numbers person by trade. What I have 

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learned is I find a lot of truth in numbers that then I can go and, dance with. 

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On the other side, which comes more natural to me, which is branding or all all these other things that that is the 

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world I came from and speak more naturally to my personality Yeah. What I value. And so I think 

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you just gotta figure out what's the language that everyone speaks, learn how to speak it very proficiently, and then layer on 

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what's magic about you. Love it. There's you folks that know us both are you know, who 

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are listening are probably thinking like, yeah. I could see 

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why these guys are clicking because, like, the the work ethic, the the 

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lifelong learning and be a learning machine aspect, the love for, 

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Charlie Munger and and, you know, history. Like, there's I know that these are maybe cheesy to or bro y to folks, but I think they're 

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real and genuine and come from a good place. And and it's it's good for 

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good for a lot of folks, and it it fuels us. So it's impressive to hear, and it's appreciated that you're sharing 

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that. Hundred percent. No. Thank you. Yeah. The what's your favorite do you have a 

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referred framework that kinda maybe jumps out at you that you wanna share with the the 

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group or one that just is, like, what's on your greatest hit list there? It's not framework 

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within. It's it's an article written, by Michael Taylor and Yousef Baidji. 

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It's about word-of-mouth coefficient, and how to measure, like, k factor and 

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virality. So as a SaaS company, my and it sounds crazy because a lot of people, I 

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think, will disagree with me, but my my god metric is can I build something with a really 

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powerful k factor? Because that means that I built something that has impact for customers and 

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that they're willing to share, which brings down my CAC. And so the same way 

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people are trying to find amazing ad hooks and and better, landing pages and and 

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websites through the software that I've provided, I similarly wanna provide something that makes them 

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wanna say, oh, fuck. Let me tell my friends about this or community that I'm in 

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or get all of my teammates on here so that, essentially, our retention gets better and then they 

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have the ability to tell their friends and, you know, teammates and and communities about it. And 

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so that's probably the biggest one. It had a really huge impact on me. I I was very lucky at that time 

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as a fledgling b to b marketer to just because, 

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again, lifelong learner, people start talking about stuff in communities. Like, I'll help. You know, I'll just whatever. 

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Let me be a fly on the wall. And so when they were concepting that entire framework and structure, I was in, like, a 

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Slack chat with them somehow. And I've I've come to become, buddies with both of them, 

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and it was a real it made a really indelible impact on me looking at 

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the the data behind what they were talking about. And so that's probably the one that has the 

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biggest impact biggest impact on me. I think the other one is just a standard growth loop. Like, how do 

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you actually build something that has continuous inputs out of outputs? I think, 

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like, you can sit here and say, oh, there's all these other big, really, like, more 

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intense detailed bills on top of that. But it's the same thing as any sort 

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of meat and potatoes type sports analogy you wanna make. To have a good passing game, 

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you gotta run the ball well. To be able to score runs, you gotta hit singles and doubles 

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and move runners move runners across. And similarly, to build all these other advanced frameworks, 

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you have to have a naturally occurring growth loop or one that you know that you can spend in 

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some sort of meaningful way once you get customers into your into your product. And so 

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just constantly thinking about that because all the other things are just icing on top of that cake, to be honest with you. 

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Yeah. I think that the the loops emphasized by Reforge were so 

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foundational. I think there was a lot of other kind of, like, you know, common language, you know, intelligent 

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thinking and systems thinking that I think was not necessarily revolutionary, 

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but I think it gave a lot of people a chance to kind of build upon it, prove it. There's a lot of, 

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like, specific wins and learnings that I think people gain, and it kind of allowed it to build 

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on on top of itself. So it's been it's been pretty awesome part of with you and 

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with others and love to hear your thoughts on it. What a good example. You talked a little bit 

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about being a learning machine. Can you maybe give the audience a little you've given me 

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personally Yeah. Some great book recommendations over the years, and I think we're, 

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like, sharing books, like, just minutes before this call hit Yeah. Hit record. 

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Is there one in particular or a couple that maybe you wanna share with the audience? I'll give a 

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couple that have really impacted my thinking recently. I just finished listening to Only the 

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Paranoid Survive, which is a quick Andy Grove book that I think, he wrote it twenty 

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five, thirty years ago. And some of the stuff is really funny because how salient it was 

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back then and how essentially all of his predictions came true. But at the core of that book, it is, like, 

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very, very impactful. What are ten x factors that are gonna change your business in some way? And so it's, like, always trying to 

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look over your shoulder to say, is there something coming that I can use? Is there something coming that's trying to kill me? What 

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do I do? Another one is seven power laws. So you can see kind of there's a string here going along 

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between those two things, which really, really helpful in terms of thinking, like, what actually makes 

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you the possibility to make an enduring, durable business. I'm reading one right now 

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that I've been finding really fascinating and good called trillion dollar coach about old 

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Intuit CEO, Bill Campbell, that, I don't know, speaks to my soul because it's about coaching and 

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he was a football coach and then became a a tech CEO. So those three 

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have been really, really fascinating. I'm I'm reading a book called The Beautiful 

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and the Vile, and it's about, Churchill in the first year of the blitz. 

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And so that's been that's been fun. I've been I've been a little slow on that one, to be honest 

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with you. And then I'm reading an I'm reading a thing called the daily dad, 

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which is essentially a build on the daily stoic by Ryan Holiday. And so it's 

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essentially about, like, what should you think about on a daily basis. And it's really funny. Not not every day 

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reframes your thinking, but every once in a while. And it's such a funny, like, if I hadn't read it, I 

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wouldn't have thought this way. It's just one page a day, but there's these days you just need it. 

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It's weird how, like, the page, you know, the the teacher arrives or the master arrives when the student is 

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ready. It's like that page arrives when when I'm ready to, to accept it. So those 

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are some of them, but I would say the like, if I had to in terms of just books, it 

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really indexes on business history and philosophy. Like, those are the three things 

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that I spend, most of my time reading about. And then on blogs, 

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it's really just, like, all growth marketing related. Love 

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it. There's so much good stuff in there and a lot for people to dive 

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into. Yeah. I'm I'm a huge I'm a huge fan. More more to share. 

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Yeah. More to add to the RBL reading list, my reading list, all good stuff. Hundred 

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percent. You know, you obviously spent a lot of time with ads, you 

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know, running ads in in in house, talking agencies like 

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ours, just going so deep with the Pencil experience and 

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building that out, improving. What are your thoughts on kind of, like, the AI ad 

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ecosystem for those interested in it? There's a lot to unpack there, but I'm curious to 

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know maybe what what are people maybe missing that they could should know about 

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AI applied to paid ads? I'll give a more macro view on AI and 

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then dive into ads. And so I think if you don't understand where or what 

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you're trying to do and accomplish, like, an AI is not a good partner in 

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crime. If you have a very, very direct focused 

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output that you're looking for and you can give it a very rigorous input, you'll be able to 

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have a really good outcome. And so what does that mean? It means shit in, shit out, gold in, gold 

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out, just more gold faster. And so I think the the way 

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that this whole thing has been positioned is, oh my god. AI is the most incredible thing ever. And when you really 

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see people getting massive impact out of it, it is, oh, they're 

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like, people are not prompt engineers. Right? This is on their LinkedIn. And so people have an amazing prompt that they can 

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get chat GBT or Bard or something else something else like that, one of the other LLMs. They have the whole 

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Midjourney community. It's like, okay. They have classes about doing good prompts in Midjourney now 

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on Maven, and they're great classes. I have friends who have taken them. They have an an amazing time. And so 

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the idea is when I first started, it was just this expectation that there was 

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magic. And I still think there is a huge expectation of magic from 

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the audience writ large. I think what builders are starting to learn is, like, how to 

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frame that by forcing people into something, but giving them an easy 

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on ramp to that. So I'm using something called, called Cast Magic right now, which you should check 

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out. It's by the guys who started Trend, IO, which got bought by Suna. 

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And they built this thing. So you just upload your it's similar. It's kind of Riverside, which 

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we're using right now, has similar kind of stuff where, like, Riverside now, for instance, will get it 

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has AI built into it. So it builds these show notes for you right away. Right? And it logs time 

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stamps, etcetera. Oh my god. Like, that is huge value. Before I had to 

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go through it, I had to have a VA do it. It's like it was just a horrible fucking experience. 

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Now it's done. Okay. You wanna make some AI clips, so there's Opus or which has gotten quite good, 

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or you can do it in Riverside, which is getting better and better. Are the clips perfect? No. But it cuts 

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something that's eighty percent of the way there and they've made it really easy to do that. So it's an on ramp to getting something 

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faster. But if I expected it to cut something perfectly and I expected the description 

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that I wrote for me to be perfect, I would always be angry. But if I understand, like, look, I'm just getting eighty 

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percent of the way there, that cuts out if I was gonna work on something for an hour, now I gotta work on it 

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for twelve minutes. Like, that is a fantastic outcome for me in my life. And so 

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with ads specifically, if you're trying to make a video ad, there are a lot of 

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inputs you need to you need to make it work. There are a lot of 

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preconceived notions about the ad creative that come in with years of building said ads for your company. 

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What I would say is understand what the AI can do for you and don't get 

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frustrated that it didn't do the thing that's in your head. The point of it is to get you closer 

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to the end of the experience than you would have been if you had not done it at 

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all and be able to scale that to, say, 10:20, thirty different outputs that 

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you wouldn't have had. I also think a lot of small companies are looking for a 

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silver bullet, and there's no silver bullet other than 

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testing and having a good product. And, like, that that is not what people 

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wanna hear, but it this is just eating your Wheaties. Right? Have a good product. Have a good 

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value proposition. Have a good funnel. Stop fucking around with hacks. Like, they they never 

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actually work Yeah. Term unless you want to just make a quick buck, which is, by the way, totally 

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fine. Again, everyone has done it a little bit here and there. But you're trying to build something build, 

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enduring and durable. The basics will always apply. AI is just an 

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accelerant to those things. It may be a good segue of when you say 

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enduring, durable. Yeah. We talk about long term things, like, not to get 

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too philosophical, but what are you what kind of has your eye on the horizon ahead 

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for Chase? Like, what does what does the future hold for you that you can share 

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with the audience in terms of what you're aiming for and what you're striving for? Yeah. I mean, I 

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think we're just trying to build a heat map into the, into the best CRO 

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software the world has ever seen. That sounds like really lofty. I can't I think the thing 

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we talk about internally is can we help every brand in the world that works 

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with us have a better outcome by simply using our software? And can we make it a 

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delightful experience along the way? Whether they're interacting with us through our content, whether they're interacting 

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which as most people know, making more money is generally not a delightful experience. It's a very difficult experience. 

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So our job is to make that easier and faster for people. That's awesome. What's top of 

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mind for that? Essentially, it's like building an incredible go to market engine that, 

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has has an incredible, virality coefficient. And I think my 

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business mission in life is to just help entrepreneurs have an easier time. And so it's just really trying to 

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unlock that through building useful companies. So Heatmap dot com is top of 

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mind on doing that right now, but also just helping any friends that I have that are 

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doing the same thing. Make sure that, you know, just asking them questions that might help them do that in a 

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in a make it easier for them or maybe it's been harder for me. That's awesome. I love that. 

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Yeah. Are there particular things as you think about building Heatmap to 

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what the goal is? And it's it sounds like it's it's super exciting. What are some of the things you're kinda 

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like, okay, I'm hoping to kinda line out the following this coming 

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year? What are you looking forward to maybe in twenty twenty four as it relates to heat map? It's a 

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good question. We've been doing some, our annual planning, looking at kind of our revenue 

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projections, what we need to do. And so I always laugh at revenue projections because essentially, like, 

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between current revenue projection and next revenue projection is a lot of human 

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things that need to be done. But it's like, here's a number figured out. And that's not a bad thing, by the way. 

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That's more of a, like, this is a good thing. And so I was talking to a friend of mine who's CEO at a pretty a 

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CMO at a pretty big company. He says, look. This whole annual planning thing is like a dance. And so 

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here's my version of it. It's like a the way I heard it in my head was like, it's a dance during, 

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West Side Story where it's essentially like the two warring factions going back and forth. 

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Like, here's my version. Here's my version. Obviously, it doesn't have adversarial. But 

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Sure. What do I wanna accomplish this year for us? Obviously, there are certain numbers that I I can't 

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share that I wanna hit. Yeah. What I do wanna do is essentially build this whole 

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surround sound marketing engine so that we become 

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the predominant ecommerce solution for 

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for heat mapping and CRO software. And so lofty vision 

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but whenever we get inside of a, or we get attached to a website, 

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within a week, we can give them stuff that's gonna, like, double their conversion rate. And 

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so my whole thing is, who is stupid enough not to wanna do that? 

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Yeah. If they're there, then I have not done my job at making it feel so easy that they 

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can do that. And so it's just building out the channels that essentially allow people to 

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allow people to have a really easy I keep saying on ramps, but I really mean it. Like, a really easy on ramp 

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into the, into the business. Yeah. I do all the product stuff we work on and all the, 

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all of the tactical things, but on a macro level, I just wanna make it super easy 

387
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for businesses to feel like they have their business and their analytics 

388
00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:07,300
are in good hands so that they can make really, really impactful decisions that drive, you know, drive 

389
00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:12,200
business results. Love it. I love that. And I think you have I've been impressed at 

390
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:16,300
your ability to go go in deep with rigor, 

391
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,300
get nerdy, and go through get your hands dirty with conversations, 

392
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:27,200
execution, data, knowing a lot of the levers that can 

393
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,000
be pulled and and suggesting, recommending helpful ways for people to pull those 

394
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,800
levers. But I also commend you for there's 

395
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:42,000
a ability to distill down the message to people in a simple way 

396
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,300
that cuts through the noise and really, I think, helps people digest, 

397
00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:52,900
helps people make buying decisions. It's yeah, I just wanna give you props for that 

398
00:32:52,900 --> 00:32:57,600
from my observation. Thanks, man. I think it's, it's just about spending time with 

399
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,600
customers. Like, by the way, that's not just everyone's like, go interview your customers. I don't mean that. I mean, like, watch 

400
00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:07,900
user sessions, have surveys, talk to them through, you know, Slack. You have 

401
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:12,800
that as as a part of it. Talk to them through social. Whatever ways you can get feedback 

402
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:18,100
and understand what's going on in the market at large, but also what's going on individually with 

403
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:23,100
your customers. Because Yeah. Really a lot of times what companies do is they say, like, oh, okay. Well, this is 

404
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:27,900
this is happening in the market or, you know, my customers are churning. It's like, well, have you what if 

405
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:32,900
companies shut down? Like, Smile Direct Club just officially shuttered. What if they're one of your clients? You're like, oh my 

406
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:37,900
god. We lost an enterprise clients. Like, no. They went fucking bankrupt. Like, that's actually what happened. 

407
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:42,700
Had nothing to do with you. You don't know that, unless you're reading the trades. And, I mean, who if you don't know 

408
00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:47,500
that, you're not really reading or paying attention, but you kinda get what I'm saying is there's a lot of different 

409
00:33:48,100 --> 00:33:52,900
headwinds and things that are going on internally at companies that, you know, dashboards don't show you Yep. 

410
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,800
At going to an event or talking to someone that you won't get unless you really have a pulse on 

411
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,600
what's going on. And so you say like, okay. That's not that's not scalable. We have 

412
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,800
x amount of customers. Okay. We have a team. You can train your team to have a 

413
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,700
pulse as well on everything that's going on. If you can build an army of people that 

414
00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:17,300
are keeping a check on it and maybe they only do it, you know, thirty percent as well as you, but you 

415
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:21,900
have five people. That's one and a half versions of you out there in the world. I 

416
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:26,800
think it is understanding that, you know, you wanna be same thing. We're talking about being a learning machine. 

417
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:31,800
You wanna be kind of built a customer centric engine within your business. And this comes 

418
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,700
top down, by the way. Like, you really have to say, okay. The top level people have to care about their customers at a really 

419
00:34:36,700 --> 00:34:41,700
deep level. So anyway, that is, that's that's what I think. I love 

420
00:34:41,700 --> 00:34:46,600
it. I was gonna kinda segue into the customer asking of questions and 

421
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,500
learning about their challenges and pain point and journey and all that fun stuff. Yeah. Can 

422
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:56,300
you share some, maybe, examples through your understanding of the Heatmap 

423
00:34:56,300 --> 00:35:00,600
customer or perhaps, you know, previous roles? Like, I'd love to learn a couple 

424
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:05,700
examples that really just jumped off the page for you either in a Zoom call or 

425
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:10,500
in a, you know, Loom or or looking at user testing dot com. Like, 

426
00:35:10,500 --> 00:35:15,500
what's what's a customer experience that really, like, hit you hard that made 

427
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:20,400
them you know, that really kind of was an moment for you with heat map or with other 

428
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:24,400
experiences? I'll use a data centric example 

429
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,100
from Pencil where we were looking at our, I would look at our our daily dashboards and 

430
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:35,000
weekly dashboards, monthly dashboards to see you're like, okay. Is this a trying to figure this out. Is this a weekly, 

431
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:39,700
monthly, daily kind of active usage platform? We don't know because we're, you know, we're building in the dark 

432
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:44,800
because we're this is not 05:10 years worth of data. We're we're building all of the, 

433
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:50,100
data runway that we have. So what we found was, okay, we're watching 

434
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:55,100
exports. This is kind of the kind of key metric that we have. How many people have exported on a weekly 

435
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:59,900
basis? What we found was if we can get someone into 

436
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,600
a bimonthly so we wanted weekly, but just bimonthly cadence of 

437
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,400
exporting their LTV, like, doubled. So, like, okay. Let's go talk to people 

438
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,400
now and understand. Alright. This is a data insight here. Let's go we have a quantitative piece of feedback. Let's go get some 

439
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,400
qualitative feedback. So if anyone's tried to do this, it's very hard to get customers on the phone because no one wants to 

440
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,400
talk to you because they have hard things going on in their lives. What I had been doing on the back end is a lot of these 

441
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,000
people we had closer relationship with. So you're cultivating them through Slack, you know, text, whatever. 

442
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:35,100
And, essentially, like, this sounds very pointed, but you wanna just give as much 

443
00:36:35,100 --> 00:36:40,000
value away as you can. So, like, hey. I thought about this for you. I thought about this for you. And I really do mean it when I do 

444
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,900
it, but you can look at it and say, like, okay. There is a business imperative around it as well 

445
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:49,700
so that when you go bake the ask, people are willing to say, like, an hour? Fuck it. Let's spend three hours together. I'll show you 

446
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:54,100
everything. And I can't tell you the amount of times that I've had people be willing to lift the veil 

447
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:59,300
on their business, what's going on. In a really surprising degree, when you start asking 

448
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:04,100
questions, you say, look. Our goal in doing this is say, like, we understand that we get the benefit of 

449
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:08,900
you exporting because you stay around longer. But how can we make it even more delightful either so 

450
00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:13,900
that you wanna do it once a week or that even they're doing it twice a week, you do it at a higher 

451
00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:18,900
scale and you tell your friends about it. And so then you start saying, okay. Well, this is this. This 

452
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:23,500
is this. These these three things are incredible, but these four things kind of add 

453
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:28,200
friction. Alright. Let's go now let's go to the product and, hey. I've had these conversations. It's from this 

454
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,000
cohort. These are the most valuable people. Let's go and look at how we have 

455
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,800
designed this engine. Okay. What are the things that I can do right now that are kind of duct 

456
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,800
tape that are duct tape versions of this? What are the things that are gonna take a long time? Anyone has built any sort 

457
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,700
of product. You understand implementing product changes always two to 

458
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:52,400
three times as long as it is scoped to be. Oh, it's gonna be two weeks, four weeks guaranteed. 

459
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,600
Right? And that's if that is a main focus. If it is something kind of middle road map or you have something else 

460
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,400
that you're shipping, six weeks, eight weeks, these kind of things change, so you have to find a new way. So, 

461
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,000
like, there are there are things for onboarding, for instance. You know, you can build 

462
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,400
the Notion workspaces. You can go, there's a company, called Ever After, which Ever After AI, 

463
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,200
which you can build kind of no code onboardings. You can use intercom. Some of these other intermediaries 

464
00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:22,200
that aren't owned solutions, and they aren't final solutions, but there are things you can 

465
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,100
do in the interim to get to forty, fifty, 

466
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:32,000
sixty percent of the answer. They won't feel good. You won't say they're not branded well enough, all of 

467
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,800
these things, but they at least are helping the cuss you get your customers into a 

468
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,700
world that you want them to live in. So the way I always look at it is, you know, New York used to be just New 

469
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:46,600
York City was this island with a bunch of trees. I read this book called the City at the Center of the Earth or 

470
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,300
something, and it's about founding of New York. And it's like, oh, it just used to be this 

471
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:56,300
little outpost that was covered in covered in trees. Would you believe that there was only 

472
00:38:56,300 --> 00:39:01,300
trees on Manhattan Island four hundred years ago? Absolutely not. But, like, they went 

473
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:06,100
and built a city, then they went and built some streets, then they went and built this and this and this and this. And 

474
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:11,000
so a place that was just trees now is a a metropolis, an urban metropolis that is 

475
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,800
made of concrete. And the same thing goes for same thing goes for products. So that's a 

476
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,800
very, I don't wanna say linear, but like a a TLDR version of something that happened over the course of, like, 

477
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,700
two and a half, three months that had a a huge impact on the company. 

478
00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:31,100
But it all comes down to grounding yourselves in either some sort of quantitative or qualitative feedback from 

479
00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:35,500
your customers, understanding what their wants versus their needs are. 

480
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:40,800
And, essentially, this is how I look at it. Build what they need, but couch it in what they 

481
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,700
want so that they feel like they made the decision to get you this thing and it feels really 

482
00:39:45,700 --> 00:39:50,500
good to them, but they're actually doing the thing that you know they need more. And so, 

483
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:55,200
again, very nebulous answer there. That's gonna mean something for everybody, 

484
00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,200
but let's just say, you know No. We're trying to make this podcast. What do we want to do? Well, 

485
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,100
we want just two friends want to share. What do we need to do? Well, we need to share very deep learning so that someone else 

486
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:10,000
who's listening gets something out of it and learn something or passes it along so that the next person who's 

487
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,800
having this problem doesn't have to have the same problems. Right? That's for me my want versus my need. Right? Same 

488
00:40:14,900 --> 00:40:19,700
it's all it's all kind of work from there. You just you just dropped, quite a lot of 

489
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:24,700
knowledge of what you learned through the test. So Yeah. You know, honoring the the namesake of the pod, and, 

490
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:30,000
I I love it. Yeah. Absolutely. What gets you most fired up about twenty twenty four as 

491
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:35,000
we approach the the new year? I mean, you know me, man. I'm like perpetual fired 

492
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,500
up. I think, if just speaking towards 

493
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,600
heat map dot com, it's really the early innings of that game. And I think, Yeah. The 

494
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:50,600
more I spend time with companies understanding their needs, I still 

495
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,500
think people are very not undereducated, just, like, unenlightened about 

496
00:40:55,500 --> 00:41:00,500
what CRO does for businesses Mhmm. And what the actual impact 

497
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:05,200
is over time. So I think when people think about ads or they think about optimizing, you know, 

498
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:10,100
their shopping cart, it's like automatic. We get money, and they 

499
00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:15,100
don't think about what happens, you know, upstream, downstream to their customers, to their like, the size of their funnel, 

500
00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:20,000
all of these things. It's like, well, I'm gonna get better customers today. Okay. What happens when the 

501
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:25,000
river runs dry and there are no more trout? Right? Because you overfished. Or you put a dam on it, and you're 

502
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,700
like, oh, go. Only need this amount of, only this amount of, a fish. 

503
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:34,900
So Mhmm. What does a website do? It is the conduit from your traffic to 

504
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:39,900
your money. And so what I wanna do is help people understand as much as 

505
00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:44,900
possible how much they need that that bridge to actually lead them to 

506
00:41:44,900 --> 00:41:49,900
the promised land. It's a ridiculous thing to say. But, like, revenue land, is probably profit land is a 

507
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:54,900
better way to say it. So we oh, and that should be our conference. True. Profit land. I like that. 

508
00:41:55,100 --> 00:42:00,100
So that's really I I'm very excited about being able to educate and enlighten, as many 

509
00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:05,100
people as possible on the the impact CRO has on their business. And they wanna use heatmap 

510
00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:10,000
dot com. I'm I'm not angry about it. But on a macro level, just make sure people are not 

511
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,000
leaving their website behind because far too many people do. Yeah. One 

512
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,800
hundred percent. I could not agree more. I love that. Do you have any, any any predictions 

513
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:24,900
for twenty twenty four? It can be bold and crazy if you'd like, and there's no wrong answer. I think we'll 

514
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:29,700
see the investment market swing back a little bit, not twenty twenty, twenty 

515
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:34,700
twenty one levels by any means, but kind of this valley we've seen in twenty back half of twenty twenty 

516
00:42:34,700 --> 00:42:39,700
two and twenty twenty three. Interesting signals I've been I've been seeing and and talking to investors, 

517
00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:43,800
etcetera. So we'll see. Maybe I'll you know, six months, you'll be like, you fucking moron. 

518
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,300
I think the other one is companies like, everyone 

519
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:54,500
swings very quickly between pendulums. I I always say, like, look. I'm just a history guy. So I I 

520
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:59,500
sit back and I say, like, okay. This is just a cycle. And so we spent a lot of money. 

521
00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:04,500
Now we're being really fiscally conservative. And then we spent a lot of money. Now we're being fiscally conservative. Then we spent a lot of money that we're being 

522
00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:09,400
fiscally conservative. And so we're in a fiscally conservative cycle right now. 

523
00:43:09,700 --> 00:43:14,700
I think the companies that got early, that were early on being fiscally conservative 

524
00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:19,700
are gonna start spending again because there's there's opportunity to to win because 

525
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:24,600
people are saying, okay. I wanna push towards profitability. I'm trying to watch these numbers, and there's just, for 

526
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:29,500
instance, ad inventory or other things that it's gonna exist at a more efficient cost 

527
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:34,300
than it did before. One thing that I am, I'm always very 

528
00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:39,200
bearish on in the long term is every time anyone talks about a channel, 

529
00:43:39,300 --> 00:43:44,200
they're like, it's crushing. And nine months later, they're like, oh, it's not that great anymore. 

530
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:49,300
And it's like, okay. You have first mover advantage. Yeah. It's it's just arbitrage. And so right now, 

531
00:43:49,300 --> 00:43:54,100
one thing and I don't know when this is gonna come out, but everyone is talking about TikTok shops. And it's like, alright, dude. 

532
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:59,200
Cool, man. This is just another placement on channels. Instagram stories used 

533
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,100
to quote, unquote slap before it got saturated. Oh, okay. We're 

534
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:08,800
gonna like, every single one becomes just another placement. 

535
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,900
And so what I'm bearish on in the in the extreme 

536
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,300
is anyone saying that any placement is a panacea for their business. 

537
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,600
Just being good at what you do is a panacea. There's no other 

538
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:28,400
there's no other silver bullet. There's nothing else that is going to actually save you or your business than 

539
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,300
being really good at all the fundamentals. Everything else is just an accelerant that 

540
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:38,200
will eventually die down. So for instance and this is a throwback, Ty. Maybe the 

541
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:43,100
kids listening to this won't remember, but fast and the furious one. You hit the NAS to have a ten 

542
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:48,100
second car. Right? Well, you hit the NAS. Okay. You get that ten second car, and then the 

543
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:53,000
NAS is gone. And so all these channels are just NAS or gasoline, but the fire eventually 

544
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:58,000
needs kindling, and that is being great at the basics. And so I would 

545
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:03,000
just call out everyone, be great at the basics, use the accelerants, understand what they can and can't 

546
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,400
do for you, but don't fall prey to hyperbole. Like, it's just Yeah. 

547
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:12,700
Doesn't it doesn't help anybody, like, say, hey. This is a great channel for me. You should test 

548
00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:17,700
it. I don't know how long it's gonna be like this. Okay. Easy money. Yeah. Absolutely 

549
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:22,700
can do that. That is a great, great callout. But business fundamental, companies that have done well 

550
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:27,400
for a hundred years, they spent less money than they make, and they make 

551
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,400
exceptional products, and they take care of their customers. Pretty simple. Yeah. 

552
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:37,500
Back to our friend, Munger and Buffett and, you know, kinda 

553
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:42,400
calling out that that law of shitty click click throughs concept. It's Mhmm. These things rise 

554
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:47,400
and fall. You have to have that long term view and be ready for when 

555
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:51,800
they do come back around. Hundred percent. I think I'll post a hot take on Twitter saying that, 

556
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,600
anyone who says any sort of channel or placement is, gonna save their business like TikTok 

557
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,400
shops is, an asshat. Let's see how that goes. Yeah. I think that'll that'll 

558
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,100
play well Yeah. With, you know, the Twitter community. Valid. Yeah. We're definitely gonna have a lot of churn on 

559
00:46:07,100 --> 00:46:12,000
heatmap dot com after that that tweet. Let's keep the conversation 

560
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:17,100
going. Yeah. I love it. Who inspires you? I'm gonna have some cheesy ones and then some good 

561
00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:21,700
ones. Yeah. All of the above. My wife inspires me a lot because of kind of, like, endless 

562
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:26,300
compassion and willingness to keep going, like, when things are tough. I mean, I think anyone who 

563
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,600
Love it. Is married and has kids will pretty much say the same thing as, like, dude, my wife 

564
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,500
is way cooler and better than me. You should be pumping punching above your weight class, by the way. 

565
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:42,900
Wise words. Yeah. See, my parents, a lot of things they've done, and gone through. My dad's an 

566
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:47,900
immigrant, so just seeing stuff him and my mom went through to build our lives, like, endlessly grateful 

567
00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:52,700
and just kind of, like, a endless reservoir of, you know, get up off the mat from watching 

568
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:57,600
them. Yeah. And then, like, through history, I think there's a few different people who kind 

569
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,600
of will endlessly inspire you. One of them for me and people might disagree with this one, but just watching 

570
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,500
someone, you've heard me say this a thousand times, so forgive me. But Mhmm. There's a few people who 

571
00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:12,300
have had impact on history, have not as much impact on 

572
00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:17,200
history as people like Napoleon Bonaparte. So I think coming from very humble beginnings and being 

573
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,300
able to essentially rule all of all of Europe is a really 

574
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:26,900
incredible story. I think also apocryphal in that if you become too big for your 

575
00:47:26,900 --> 00:47:31,800
britches, as my grandfather would say, no matter how much you think you're in power, it's pretty 

576
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:36,100
fragile. And so Yeah. Over the last few years, how many people have we seen 

577
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:41,300
that thought that they were invincible and because of some mistakes that they made that were 

578
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:46,500
heinous at hell because they thought they were invincible. You know? They lost all they 

579
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:51,100
lost everything. Now they hurt people along the way, so fuck them, obviously. But I 

580
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:55,900
think my kind of big one is every time you read these stories that are histories, 

581
00:47:55,900 --> 00:48:00,500
it's stay humble and stay hungry. It's kind of a thing my brothers and I say to each other all the 

582
00:48:00,500 --> 00:48:05,300
time. So stay humble. Don't get too big for your britches. Stay hungry. Like, you gotta 

583
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:10,300
keep going. You know? Like, a shark never stops swimming and looking for food. Mhmm. Like, 

584
00:48:10,300 --> 00:48:14,400
you gotta keep just swimming and looking for food, and then you'll be this dense 

585
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:19,700
muscular thing that's a machine. And, it's a very visceral kind of 

586
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:24,700
example because, like, over the sharks are kinda killing machines. But if you look at it like learning, growing, all of 

587
00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:29,700
those other things Yeah. That's what they're doing. They're essentially trying to stay alive by kinda keep swimming 

588
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,700
forward and growing, and they grow by obviously eating other fish. 

589
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:40,100
But that's kind of the entire point of life in my opinion is you keep moving forward and you keep growing as much as you 

590
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:44,400
possibly can. Obviously, financial outcomes are just an outgrowth, 

591
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:50,000
that growth if you're pointed in the direction of commerce. I love it. Yeah. If you were a teacher or 

592
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,700
something else, you would just be writing papers and helping students and all of those things, same same concept. 

593
00:48:55,000 --> 00:49:00,000
We're just pointed in the direction of dollars. You know? Yeah. Just so happens. Yeah. Things 

594
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,600
things change and ebb and flow. And I think it's that constant search and 

595
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,500
quest for improvement and learning and betterment of yourself and your family 

596
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:14,500
and others and your clients and teammates. And that's that's kind of what we're essentially 

597
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:19,300
doing, and love that answer. Hundred percent. And if you grow and 

598
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:24,200
get strong enough, eventually, you can become the forty niners. You know? That that's 

599
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,900
that could happen too. Ninety five, man. Never forgive you. Never forgive you. 

600
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:35,400
The charger niner rivalry, the padre giants rivalry. What rivalry? We suck. 

601
00:49:35,500 --> 00:49:40,500
Like, the chargers suck. I was like, maybe a little more with the Giants and the and the Padres 

602
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:45,800
over over the last thirty years, but Chargers and Niners, it's a tale of 

603
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:51,100
people who couldn't win and people who could win. So it's not no rivalry. It's just jealousy. 

604
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:58,100
I appreciate the honesty. You know? And, hey, live to fight live to fight slash 

605
00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:03,000
play another day. Right? Yeah. Fingers crossed, man. It's a good one to end on right there. Yes, sir. While 

606
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:08,000
I'm ahead. Yeah. Hundred percent. Well, I appreciate you, man. This was this was lovely. Thank you for the amazing questions. Chase, 

607
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,900
you're you're so well respected within a number of communities. There's been 

608
00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:17,800
awesome awesome life and work lessons dropped. Thank you for 

609
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:22,800
those that wanna learn more about you that don't know about Chase Mosseini. Where can we find 

610
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:27,700
you? LinkedIn, you can find me there. Twitter, I'm my handle is I'm 

611
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:32,700
Chase Mosseini. And if you know You are. Yeah. I that's that's what it is. And if you know how 

612
00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:37,700
small companies work, you probably can figure out my email address. Heatmap dot com is our URL, 

613
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:42,500
so you might be able to figure it out. Challenge accepted. Yes. I'm excited to 

614
00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:47,400
see what you guys are building, in particular as an agency. We're gonna be plugging in and going 

615
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:52,300
ham on the product and helping our clients improve all the things and pages 

616
00:50:52,300 --> 00:50:56,900
and conversions. And I'm excited to see what you guys are building. There's a lot of exciting things 

617
00:50:56,900 --> 00:51:01,500
happening with heat maps. So congrats to you and the team, and I'm sure you'll 

618
00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:06,400
be it'll be dropping updates for us all as we follow along and and and 

619
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:11,400
work with you on it. Feel sad for everyone who's gonna have to deal with my tweet storm. So 

620
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,800
enjoy, and, yeah, remember, everyone, always be testing with There it is. 

621
00:51:16,100 --> 00:51:19,100
Thank you. Thank you, guys. Bye. Bye.