WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.097 --> 00:00:27.017 Anke: Hello and welcome Nancy. 00:00:27.017 --> 00:00:28.637 I'm super excited to have you here. 00:00:29.387 --> 00:00:29.807 Nancy: Thank you. 00:00:29.807 --> 00:00:31.037 I'm excited to be here. 00:00:32.057 --> 00:00:32.627 Anke: Wonderful. 00:00:32.627 --> 00:00:38.057 So we ha we just had a little discussion on makeup of all things that we both not 00:00:38.057 --> 00:00:39.497 interested in, so it was quite funny. 00:00:39.857 --> 00:00:45.227 Um, so let people know where in this lovely world are you based and you know, 00:00:45.227 --> 00:00:47.327 as always, what's your business with dogs? 00:00:48.107 --> 00:00:48.737 Nancy: Sure. 00:00:49.097 --> 00:00:51.077 So I live in California. 00:00:51.137 --> 00:00:51.527 Um. 00:00:52.352 --> 00:00:54.302 I moved here in 2020. 00:00:54.302 --> 00:00:58.232 I'd been in California before, but then I spent a decade in North Carolina 00:00:58.832 --> 00:01:04.202 and now I'm back, um, coincident with the birth of my oldest grandchild. 00:01:04.952 --> 00:01:09.002 Uh, I live in northern California in the San Francisco Bay area. 00:01:09.662 --> 00:01:11.192 Uh, dogs. 00:01:11.252 --> 00:01:16.982 I, I like to say that I, uh, left the womb in love with animals, 00:01:17.372 --> 00:01:21.452 and by the age of 10, I knew that I wanted to be a veterinarian. 00:01:22.022 --> 00:01:25.022 And lo and behold, that's what I became. 00:01:25.442 --> 00:01:30.542 Um, I went to veterinary school at Cornell and then came to California 00:01:30.542 --> 00:01:36.452 to U University of California Davis to do residency training and became a 00:01:36.452 --> 00:01:42.692 specialist in small animal veterinary medicine, and I practiced for 35 years. 00:01:42.752 --> 00:01:46.382 I'm retired from clinical practice, although I still have 00:01:46.382 --> 00:01:50.702 a license so I can take care of my friends and loved ones dogs. 00:01:51.452 --> 00:01:52.052 Cats. 00:01:52.142 --> 00:01:59.912 Um, and I, so I practiced, had a very lovely fulfilling career and 00:01:59.942 --> 00:02:07.262 in 2008, um, I wrote my first book and I can tell you about why I wrote 00:02:07.262 --> 00:02:10.892 it, if you like, but, uh, I wrote my first book and then that led to more 00:02:10.892 --> 00:02:13.382 writing, blogging for many, many years. 00:02:13.742 --> 00:02:18.602 I continue to blog weekly, and since then I wrote another book. 00:02:19.742 --> 00:02:22.652 And I am releasing a third book this year. 00:02:23.672 --> 00:02:24.332 Anke: Very exciting. 00:02:24.332 --> 00:02:27.512 So now obviously I can't, like you've, you've made it easy. 00:02:27.627 --> 00:02:30.452 I can't, I can't help take the bite. 00:02:30.842 --> 00:02:36.002 Um, so what made you write, like what inspired, you know, because I mean, you 00:02:36.002 --> 00:02:38.972 know, I've written a book, there's a lot of work in it, so you don't do that in 00:02:39.032 --> 00:02:40.952 unless you feel you have something to say. 00:02:41.252 --> 00:02:47.017 You know, what inspired the first one and um, you know, how did that story evolve? 00:02:47.867 --> 00:02:52.487 Nancy: And approximately 2006, as you know, women of a certain age 00:02:52.697 --> 00:02:56.897 have mammograms, routine screening mammograms, and something showed 00:02:56.897 --> 00:03:02.567 up on the mammogram, which led to other procedures in a biopsy, and the 00:03:02.567 --> 00:03:05.267 biopsy revealed some atypical cells. 00:03:05.717 --> 00:03:09.707 And it, I was, it was recommended that I have what's called a lumpectomy, 00:03:09.707 --> 00:03:12.287 a surgical removal of that area. 00:03:12.902 --> 00:03:19.712 And I happened to have a client who was a pathologist, meaning looking at 00:03:19.712 --> 00:03:24.962 tissue samples under the microscope, and his specialty was breast tissue. 00:03:25.502 --> 00:03:29.192 And so I contacted him and he said, yeah, bring the slides 00:03:29.192 --> 00:03:30.572 over, bring the mammogram over. 00:03:30.572 --> 00:03:32.192 We'll look, and I went to his office. 00:03:32.507 --> 00:03:37.727 And he's the person who wrote the textbook on breast pathology. 00:03:37.937 --> 00:03:39.647 Like he is the guy. 00:03:40.247 --> 00:03:44.927 And uh, and he said, you have absolutely nothing to worry about. 00:03:44.927 --> 00:03:49.877 This is why people get concerned about these cells, but nothing to worry about. 00:03:49.877 --> 00:03:55.757 And so I left the office so relieved and thinking, wow, you know, it's my 00:03:55.757 --> 00:04:01.727 medical advocacy skills that allowed me to avert and needless surgery. 00:04:01.757 --> 00:04:01.817 Wow. 00:04:02.507 --> 00:04:05.477 And how does the average person do that? 00:04:05.477 --> 00:04:08.267 I mean, I have all this medical wisdom and knowledge. 00:04:09.467 --> 00:04:13.067 I know how to do it, but how does the average Joe know how to do it? 00:04:13.697 --> 00:04:16.967 And so I thought, I wonder if I could teach people how to do this. 00:04:16.967 --> 00:04:20.387 And I felt it would be presumptuous for me to write a 00:04:20.387 --> 00:04:22.427 book pertaining to human medicine. 00:04:22.907 --> 00:04:26.057 So I wrote a book about dogs called Speaking for Spot. 00:04:26.147 --> 00:04:29.807 Be the Advocate Your dog needs to live a happy, healthy, longer life. 00:04:30.587 --> 00:04:34.307 And originally I thought it would just be lists of questions to ask 00:04:34.307 --> 00:04:36.377 the doctor, but you're veterinarian. 00:04:36.377 --> 00:04:43.457 But it became so much more, um, became a bestseller and many people told me 00:04:43.457 --> 00:04:46.697 that yes, it applied to their dogs, but they took the same advice with 00:04:46.697 --> 00:04:48.197 them when they went to the doctor. 00:04:48.677 --> 00:04:52.517 So that was the evolution of speaking for Spot, which has 00:04:52.517 --> 00:04:54.107 kind of become my brand name. 00:04:54.107 --> 00:04:58.757 I'm publishing my next book, um, under Speaking for Spot Press. 00:05:00.227 --> 00:05:01.127 Anke: Oh wow. 00:05:01.427 --> 00:05:05.747 So, I mean, that I love, I love that so much because literally soul touched 00:05:05.747 --> 00:05:07.457 by dogs was born 'cause of that. 00:05:08.132 --> 00:05:08.352 Oh. 00:05:08.357 --> 00:05:12.047 I ended up like, okay, found a puppy in the street now walk, right? 00:05:12.047 --> 00:05:12.107 Yeah. 00:05:12.287 --> 00:05:19.097 So, and it was always that, um, sense that I didn't, I knew I didn't know anything. 00:05:19.307 --> 00:05:22.307 So I started looking at learning and. 00:05:24.752 --> 00:05:31.232 I was advised by beds, by trainers, by, you know, didn't make sense, you know? 00:05:31.232 --> 00:05:31.322 Yes. 00:05:31.532 --> 00:05:37.112 And there was always that, Hmm, you can't take at face value what you're being told. 00:05:37.592 --> 00:05:44.432 So that whole journey of knowing I don't know anything, so I'm gonna 00:05:44.522 --> 00:05:47.342 believe anything anybody tells me to. 00:05:48.542 --> 00:05:52.442 I need to educate myself so that. 00:05:52.967 --> 00:05:58.577 I can make an informed decision and I can kind of weigh up one opinion against 00:05:58.577 --> 00:06:02.717 another and, and sort of, you know, be an advocate for my dog, you know? 00:06:02.717 --> 00:06:02.927 Right. 00:06:03.257 --> 00:06:06.977 'cause the dog will fall through the cracks between all the different 00:06:06.977 --> 00:06:08.957 opinions and different approaches. 00:06:08.957 --> 00:06:13.067 And so the advocacy of it is, is really what, what sparked this 00:06:13.067 --> 00:06:14.867 whole, this whole project, you know? 00:06:15.287 --> 00:06:21.557 But you come at this from the, from the, um, medical angle. 00:06:22.082 --> 00:06:22.682 Nancy: Correct. 00:06:23.102 --> 00:06:28.742 And in my book I convey that you, the person who takes care of that 00:06:28.742 --> 00:06:32.732 dog, you are actually the team captain of your dog's healthcare. 00:06:33.182 --> 00:06:33.212 Mm. 00:06:33.212 --> 00:06:35.012 And you have veterinarians. 00:06:35.012 --> 00:06:39.662 You have trainers, have a lot of people, uh, that you rely on for 00:06:39.662 --> 00:06:42.002 advice, but you, you are the team cap. 00:06:42.887 --> 00:06:45.377 And you get to make the tough decisions. 00:06:46.097 --> 00:06:46.487 Anke: Yeah. 00:06:46.487 --> 00:06:47.837 Well, I mean, that's the thing. 00:06:47.837 --> 00:06:52.577 It's like, I guess it's, I guess it's no different than having kids in a sense. 00:06:52.577 --> 00:06:52.787 Right. 00:06:52.787 --> 00:06:56.032 You know, it's also like, yeah, you don't go to school for that, you know? 00:06:56.032 --> 00:06:56.312 Right. 00:06:56.312 --> 00:06:59.867 And you have to make the decisions and, and choose who to trust and who you don't. 00:06:59.867 --> 00:07:02.987 So I guess it's not that different, but I somehow. 00:07:03.797 --> 00:07:08.057 Didn't quite see that coming when I found that little puppy in the street, you know? 00:07:08.477 --> 00:07:08.567 Yes. 00:07:08.567 --> 00:07:13.067 I didn't realize there was gonna be so much conflicting advice and so much, 00:07:13.157 --> 00:07:17.777 you know, outdated advice that was still kind of like regurgitated as if nothing 00:07:17.777 --> 00:07:19.847 else had been discovered since, you know? 00:07:19.902 --> 00:07:21.887 Yes, yes. 00:07:23.147 --> 00:07:26.867 So, so what inspired the other books after, after that? 00:07:26.867 --> 00:07:27.437 So. 00:07:28.307 --> 00:07:30.497 You just, did you get bitten by the writing book then? 00:07:31.037 --> 00:07:32.027 Nancy: Um, I, yeah. 00:07:32.027 --> 00:07:36.077 I definitely have the writing bug as evidenced by how much I've 00:07:36.077 --> 00:07:38.417 blogged once a week for years. 00:07:38.837 --> 00:07:47.387 Um, the second book, uh, is called, uh, your Dog's Best Health, A Dozen 00:07:47.387 --> 00:07:50.147 Reasonable Things To Expect From Your Vet. 00:07:50.147 --> 00:07:51.437 Mm-hmm. 00:07:53.297 --> 00:07:57.887 People sometimes have difficulty expressing their needs and 00:07:57.887 --> 00:08:00.377 opinions with their veterinarian. 00:08:00.437 --> 00:08:02.507 Their veterinarian, they put on a pedestal. 00:08:02.507 --> 00:08:07.697 And that's not, that's not what I encourage anyone to do it. 00:08:07.697 --> 00:08:12.707 I encourage what we call relationship centered care, where it's a team approach, 00:08:13.127 --> 00:08:17.327 not just sitting and being told what to do, but discussions of options and. 00:08:17.852 --> 00:08:22.382 What makes the most sense for your dog, who you know better than anyone else, 00:08:22.832 --> 00:08:27.302 and what makes sense for you, what you can afford, your lifestyle, all of that. 00:08:27.872 --> 00:08:32.672 Um, and so many people didn't really know what's reasonable 00:08:32.672 --> 00:08:33.902 to expect from their vet. 00:08:33.902 --> 00:08:39.842 And it's reasonable to expect a lot of things that people often don't get. 00:08:40.352 --> 00:08:41.822 And I encourage, like, can 00:08:41.822 --> 00:08:42.317 Anke: you give a. 00:08:44.057 --> 00:08:44.777 Nancy: Sure. 00:08:45.137 --> 00:08:50.177 Um, discussion of all options and the cost for all options. 00:08:50.927 --> 00:08:54.647 Uh, there may be a best approach, but if it's not affordable, 00:08:54.647 --> 00:08:56.057 it's not the best approach. 00:08:56.927 --> 00:08:58.427 Um, yes. 00:08:58.517 --> 00:09:03.767 And that your veterinarian encourages you to be part of the team, 00:09:03.767 --> 00:09:05.777 not just being told what to do. 00:09:06.527 --> 00:09:09.407 Um, things like that. 00:09:09.437 --> 00:09:11.147 Oh, uh, for example. 00:09:11.612 --> 00:09:15.962 Many people leave their pets in the hospital overnight not 00:09:15.962 --> 00:09:18.662 knowing that there's no one there with the dog overnight. 00:09:19.532 --> 00:09:22.772 And if your dog is sick enough to be in a hospital overnight, there 00:09:22.772 --> 00:09:25.082 should be someone providing care. 00:09:25.082 --> 00:09:30.857 So 24 hour care is something that, uh, is reasonable to expect from your vet. 00:09:31.142 --> 00:09:34.892 And if they don't provide 24 hour care, they should refer 00:09:34.892 --> 00:09:36.872 you to a facility that does. 00:09:37.337 --> 00:09:38.597 So various things like that 00:09:39.647 --> 00:09:43.397 Anke: that Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's reminds me of a conversation 00:09:43.397 --> 00:09:47.867 with a friend I had, like where that was literally the case, you know, where Yeah. 00:09:47.867 --> 00:09:51.887 The dog was there overnight and you know, they came in the morning and she had 00:09:52.187 --> 00:09:58.097 smashed the glass of that each thing and you know, probably eaten some of it in 00:09:58.097 --> 00:10:01.007 that, you know, in her distress state. 00:10:01.247 --> 00:10:01.457 Yeah. 00:10:01.457 --> 00:10:04.637 Nobody was there, you know, so it's like, yeah, it's kind. 00:10:04.817 --> 00:10:06.167 You wouldn't even think that. 00:10:06.332 --> 00:10:06.422 Right. 00:10:06.692 --> 00:10:12.452 You would not imagine that they just go close people and come back to Exactly. 00:10:12.512 --> 00:10:12.992 Yeah. 00:10:13.202 --> 00:10:13.562 Yeah. 00:10:13.562 --> 00:10:14.222 Totally. 00:10:14.552 --> 00:10:15.092 Totally. 00:10:15.512 --> 00:10:20.012 I, I think it's also that, that asking for a second opinion and 00:10:20.012 --> 00:10:24.062 I, you know, I'm, I, I only know, like, I've not had a dog before. 00:10:24.062 --> 00:10:27.722 I lived in Spain, so I only know the way it goes here. 00:10:27.782 --> 00:10:33.212 And I definitely often found it quite frustrating, you know, so to 00:10:33.212 --> 00:10:35.522 ask for, Hey, what are the options? 00:10:36.092 --> 00:10:38.072 They will all just tell you one. 00:10:39.752 --> 00:10:40.112 Nancy: Right. 00:10:40.112 --> 00:10:40.987 That's not okay. 00:10:41.447 --> 00:10:47.822 Anke: You know, and I not, well, don't you, then I'll go, you know, I'm, but 00:10:47.822 --> 00:10:53.462 I'll research everything I can, you know, to sort of see and, and, um. 00:10:54.167 --> 00:10:59.537 I mean, example was the, the first girl I had, you know, and so it was 00:10:59.537 --> 00:11:03.377 like, okay, I don't want puppies, like, you know, all I knew she was a 00:11:03.377 --> 00:11:06.977 puppy still, you know, and I'm like, I all, all I know is like I don't 00:11:06.977 --> 00:11:08.567 want to have a whole bunch of puppies. 00:11:08.807 --> 00:11:10.517 So what are the options right? 00:11:11.882 --> 00:11:15.542 Literally every, I called every single, I called five different beds. 00:11:15.542 --> 00:11:18.542 And then every single one said, oh, well, you know, we just need to take 00:11:18.542 --> 00:11:21.452 everything out like before the first hit. 00:11:21.572 --> 00:11:25.472 And I'm like, from what I've read, that's not kind of the only option. 00:11:25.472 --> 00:11:28.532 And I remember friends in Germany, people told me that there are other 00:11:28.742 --> 00:11:32.612 different ways and different approaches and you know, I'm thinking timing. 00:11:32.852 --> 00:11:37.352 I expected them to say, well, here are the options. 00:11:37.592 --> 00:11:39.362 Here's the one I recommend, here's why. 00:11:40.442 --> 00:11:41.792 That's what I was hoping for. 00:11:41.792 --> 00:11:43.532 And none of them actually gave that. 00:11:43.532 --> 00:11:43.772 Exactly. 00:11:43.772 --> 00:11:45.572 They all said the same thing. 00:11:45.872 --> 00:11:50.462 You know, this is the, on the only way, and, and then I, I have a trust problem. 00:11:50.612 --> 00:11:54.962 You know, if I think they don't know, then I don't really trust them anymore, 00:11:55.202 --> 00:11:55.322 Nancy: you 00:11:55.322 --> 00:11:55.382 Anke: know? 00:11:55.382 --> 00:11:55.472 Right. 00:11:56.432 --> 00:12:00.332 Nancy: In my book, uh, speaking for Spot, there's a whole chapter, uh, on this. 00:12:00.572 --> 00:12:05.492 It's titled A Second Opinion Is a Second Opinion is Always Okay. 00:12:05.942 --> 00:12:06.182 Hmm. 00:12:06.182 --> 00:12:09.482 And that's true for us as well with our own medical care. 00:12:10.022 --> 00:12:15.422 And people get hung up on requesting a second opinion from their veterinarian. 00:12:15.422 --> 00:12:18.737 They're worried that they're going to hurt their veterinarian's feelings. 00:12:19.772 --> 00:12:23.402 And what I say is what's more important? 00:12:24.662 --> 00:12:28.442 Dog's health or your veterinarian's feelings, and to 00:12:28.442 --> 00:12:30.722 me that's, that's a no brainer. 00:12:31.022 --> 00:12:31.412 Anke: Hmm. 00:12:32.222 --> 00:12:32.612 Nancy: Yeah. 00:12:32.672 --> 00:12:32.882 Yeah. 00:12:32.972 --> 00:12:37.142 Anke: But I guess then you are almost like, you also, between, if you have vet 00:12:37.142 --> 00:12:41.072 number one says this and vet number two says something the opposite, and then 00:12:41.072 --> 00:12:42.542 you don't know which ones, right, right. 00:12:42.632 --> 00:12:42.812 Then you, 00:12:43.712 --> 00:12:47.372 Nancy: then you go to vet number three, or you consult with a specialist 00:12:47.972 --> 00:12:48.242 Anke: who's 00:12:48.242 --> 00:12:53.222 Nancy: going to be most up to date, most current on what's involved. 00:12:53.597 --> 00:12:56.207 There's four different ways to spay a dog. 00:12:56.807 --> 00:12:59.627 Um, I recently blogged about all those different ways. 00:12:59.717 --> 00:12:59.807 Mm-hmm. 00:13:00.317 --> 00:13:04.637 And actually Europe is more progressive about this than 00:13:04.877 --> 00:13:06.857 veterinarians in the United States. 00:13:07.457 --> 00:13:07.547 Anke: Mm-hmm. 00:13:07.547 --> 00:13:12.317 Nancy: And so it's very common in Europe, for example, to simply remove the ovaries. 00:13:12.947 --> 00:13:16.577 And leave the uterus in place in the United States. 00:13:16.637 --> 00:13:18.767 It's very rare that veterinarians do that. 00:13:18.767 --> 00:13:20.957 They remove the uterus and the ovaries. 00:13:21.017 --> 00:13:21.107 Anke: Yeah. 00:13:22.067 --> 00:13:25.097 Nancy: And removing the uterus isn't at all necessary, and it involves more 00:13:25.097 --> 00:13:27.317 trauma, more time, more surgical time. 00:13:27.767 --> 00:13:30.257 So, um, yeah. 00:13:30.347 --> 00:13:32.987 Uh, and there's also ovary sparing spay. 00:13:32.987 --> 00:13:37.247 So the dog is still producing hormones, but she can't conceive. 00:13:37.397 --> 00:13:39.662 Um, and there's a, well, I've 00:13:39.662 --> 00:13:43.457 Anke: heard of all of this from my friend in Germany because there they did have 00:13:43.457 --> 00:13:46.637 all these, that was even like a pill or something, you know, there's all these 00:13:46.637 --> 00:13:51.317 different options, you know, and then you come here and, and they go, oh no, 00:13:51.347 --> 00:13:57.017 you just kind of have to like, before you know, they can even like walk basically. 00:13:57.287 --> 00:13:59.807 Nancy: Well, there's also a lot of data about the timing 00:13:59.807 --> 00:14:01.847 of Spain in particular breeds. 00:14:02.207 --> 00:14:04.757 And I have all that research on a website. 00:14:05.222 --> 00:14:07.772 Called spay neuter advice.com 00:14:08.132 --> 00:14:14.672 and for, and it's for certain breeds, neutering before a year to a year and 00:14:14.672 --> 00:14:20.012 a half of age, increases the incidences of orthopedic issues and increases the 00:14:20.012 --> 00:14:22.022 incidences of certain types of cancers. 00:14:22.622 --> 00:14:25.172 And it's, it's very brief, specific. 00:14:25.502 --> 00:14:31.652 So, um, veterinarian should be taking all of that into account when advising 00:14:31.652 --> 00:14:33.632 on the methodology for neutering. 00:14:34.352 --> 00:14:38.072 With male dogs, I questioned if a dog really needs to be neutered, 00:14:38.252 --> 00:14:42.962 if the owner is responsible and can prevent unintentional litters. 00:14:43.742 --> 00:14:47.732 Um, yeah, and, and the timing of the neutering is also important, 00:14:48.272 --> 00:14:50.882 so, uh, there's a lot to consider. 00:14:50.882 --> 00:14:54.062 It's not just neuter between four and six months of age. 00:14:54.062 --> 00:14:55.292 That's all you need to know. 00:14:55.682 --> 00:14:57.842 There's a lot more to consider these days. 00:14:58.982 --> 00:14:59.252 Anke: No. 00:14:59.252 --> 00:14:59.882 And I do 00:14:59.882 --> 00:15:02.732 Nancy: find, by the way, that veterinarians, at least in the 00:15:02.732 --> 00:15:07.892 United States, it usually takes them 10 to 20 years to begin 00:15:07.892 --> 00:15:11.642 to adopt the newest research. 00:15:11.642 --> 00:15:15.662 So for example, when we learned that dogs don't need to be vaccinated once a year 00:15:15.662 --> 00:15:20.792 for everything, it took veterinarians in the United States about 20 years. 00:15:21.287 --> 00:15:22.667 To really embrace that. 00:15:23.027 --> 00:15:24.332 Anke: Well, they haven't started here. 00:15:25.512 --> 00:15:27.137 No, no, they haven't started yet. 00:15:27.137 --> 00:15:31.757 Like this looks like, it looks to me like what's going on here is, is like 20, 30 00:15:31.757 --> 00:15:33.977 years behind of everybody else, you know? 00:15:34.727 --> 00:15:38.447 And yeah, it's, it's, I guess it also evolves. 00:15:38.447 --> 00:15:44.717 I mean, you know, I've literally heard like, like there was a, a, a Spanish vet 00:15:44.717 --> 00:15:48.617 and she was very young actually, so she just sort of finished and she was in this. 00:15:49.757 --> 00:15:53.567 Program and she was talking to this other person and they go, oh, well I've 00:15:53.567 --> 00:15:57.557 just finished, like this is the last, like, I've just finished my studies. 00:15:57.917 --> 00:16:00.017 I will never open a book again. 00:16:00.017 --> 00:16:01.157 Like I'm done. 00:16:01.607 --> 00:16:02.087 You know? 00:16:02.092 --> 00:16:05.657 And I'm like, alright, like you've just disqualified yourself in 00:16:05.657 --> 00:16:07.877 my book because I guess Exactly. 00:16:07.877 --> 00:16:09.407 You know, like if there's any. 00:16:10.952 --> 00:16:16.712 Field where ongoing learning would have to be, you know, it, it has to be 00:16:16.712 --> 00:16:18.152 anything to do with medicine, right? 00:16:18.152 --> 00:16:20.552 You don't wanna kind of stay stuck at what you learned when 00:16:20.552 --> 00:16:22.112 you finished uni, you know? 00:16:22.202 --> 00:16:22.502 Yes. 00:16:22.502 --> 00:16:25.952 So, and somebody who comes in with that attitude is, yeah. 00:16:25.952 --> 00:16:26.912 That learning thing. 00:16:26.912 --> 00:16:27.692 I'm, I'm with that. 00:16:27.692 --> 00:16:29.252 I thought that was scary. 00:16:30.572 --> 00:16:31.082 Hmm. 00:16:31.772 --> 00:16:35.102 Nancy: Um, and then is it okay for me to talk about my third book? 00:16:35.282 --> 00:16:35.972 Anke: Oh, absolutely. 00:16:35.972 --> 00:16:36.992 I was gonna ask you anyway. 00:16:37.357 --> 00:16:37.577 So, 00:16:39.692 --> 00:16:44.552 Nancy: um, as a human being, as a veterinarian, uh. 00:16:45.872 --> 00:16:50.042 Probably my biggest soapbox issue, uh, it, it has to do with 00:16:50.042 --> 00:16:53.792 anything having to do with animal welfare is a soapbox issue for me. 00:16:53.792 --> 00:16:59.342 But in particular, puppy mills, and I believe that puppy mills exist in Spain. 00:16:59.402 --> 00:17:01.322 I know they exist in the uk. 00:17:01.862 --> 00:17:07.982 Um, and puppy mills are, are basically large commercial breeding facilities. 00:17:08.447 --> 00:17:13.667 Where profit is prioritized over the humane treatment of the animals and 00:17:13.667 --> 00:17:18.407 meeting the both the physical and psychological needs of the animals. 00:17:18.827 --> 00:17:22.877 Many of the animals in puppy mills spend their entire lives in small 00:17:22.877 --> 00:17:28.817 cages being bred cycle after cycle after cycle, and when they're useful 00:17:28.817 --> 00:17:31.337 breeding life if it is over there. 00:17:32.747 --> 00:17:33.977 They're eliminated. 00:17:34.127 --> 00:17:38.267 They're in a variety of ways, many of which are unsavory. 00:17:39.017 --> 00:17:46.187 So, um, I have grown weary of adults not getting the job done in 00:17:46.187 --> 00:17:48.077 terms of eliminating puppy mills. 00:17:48.437 --> 00:17:53.747 And the way that one eliminates puppy mills is to, to diminish the demand 00:17:53.747 --> 00:17:55.907 for puppies coming from puppy mills. 00:17:56.747 --> 00:17:57.587 So. 00:17:58.067 --> 00:18:01.697 Um, do you, are you familiar with Greta Thunberg? 00:18:02.327 --> 00:18:02.927 Yeah, I think that's her. 00:18:03.497 --> 00:18:04.037 Yes. 00:18:04.277 --> 00:18:10.127 And so she's a kid who's all about climate change, and I thought, you know what? 00:18:10.127 --> 00:18:13.037 Maybe I need to teach kids about puppy mills. 00:18:13.937 --> 00:18:18.437 And I thought I would write a nonfiction book because that's what I've written. 00:18:19.427 --> 00:18:21.107 And I wrote a number of. 00:18:22.052 --> 00:18:25.022 Of iterations of it, and I just thought, man, if I were a 00:18:25.022 --> 00:18:26.582 kid, I would never read this. 00:18:27.092 --> 00:18:30.182 And so I ended up writing a fiction book. 00:18:30.212 --> 00:18:34.202 That's an adventure story about a 12-year-old girl that has a chance 00:18:34.202 --> 00:18:38.192 encounter with a pregnant runaway golden retriever from a puppy mill. 00:18:38.552 --> 00:18:41.912 Oh, and one thing leads to another. 00:18:41.912 --> 00:18:45.212 She and her best friend discovered the puppy mill, and now it's a 00:18:45.212 --> 00:18:47.372 matter of rescuing all of those dogs. 00:18:48.002 --> 00:18:50.342 And it's going to be released later this year. 00:18:50.342 --> 00:18:57.227 It's called a dog named 6 4 7, and I'm, I'm really excited about it because, and, 00:18:57.232 --> 00:19:03.572 and I did have several beta readers, 11 middle grade beta readers, and most of 00:19:03.572 --> 00:19:05.432 them had never heard about a puppy mill. 00:19:05.432 --> 00:19:06.752 Never heard of puppy mills. 00:19:07.262 --> 00:19:12.242 So I'm really excited to get this in the hands of kids at a time 00:19:12.242 --> 00:19:17.102 when their awareness of the world around them is really budding. 00:19:17.777 --> 00:19:18.137 Anke: Yeah. 00:19:18.557 --> 00:19:19.457 Oh God, I love that. 00:19:19.457 --> 00:19:22.042 I love that so much because that's, it's, thank you. 00:19:22.042 --> 00:19:26.357 Literally, it's, it's, it's that next generation that, you know, where 00:19:26.357 --> 00:19:29.267 when, when kids are taught something different, then the whole thing 00:19:29.267 --> 00:19:31.097 can change in a fundamental way. 00:19:31.667 --> 00:19:32.207 Yeah. 00:19:32.267 --> 00:19:36.167 I mean, that feels like this, this is sort of mandatory reading and, 00:19:36.407 --> 00:19:38.987 you know, schools and libraries and, and things like that. 00:19:39.302 --> 00:19:39.522 Yes. 00:19:39.522 --> 00:19:39.523 I 00:19:39.528 --> 00:19:44.747 Nancy: hope I'm website sort of organization called. 00:19:45.012 --> 00:19:49.662 Kids united for animal welfare and so puppy mills will be one of the 00:19:49.662 --> 00:19:54.372 topics, but there's so many other topics they can become aware of. 00:19:54.372 --> 00:19:56.472 Factory farming of animals. 00:19:56.982 --> 00:20:01.212 What happens to all the male baby chicks that are born who aren't 00:20:01.212 --> 00:20:02.772 going to be able to lay eggs? 00:20:03.372 --> 00:20:09.072 There's just so many topics and uh, I would love for kids to become 00:20:09.372 --> 00:20:11.952 fluent in animal welfare issues. 00:20:12.527 --> 00:20:12.917 Anke: Yeah. 00:20:12.977 --> 00:20:16.367 And they, you know, and a lot, and a lot of them do love, you know, like 00:20:16.367 --> 00:20:19.787 kids when you, when you see, you know, I, I just love, love like sort of 00:20:19.787 --> 00:20:23.507 four or five year olds, you know, when they still, the way they approach an 00:20:23.507 --> 00:20:26.807 animal with that sense of like wonder and that, you know, like they're 00:20:26.807 --> 00:20:30.257 open, they're open to things and yeah. 00:20:30.257 --> 00:20:34.247 And I think it's, it's giving them a chance to, to learn about these 00:20:34.247 --> 00:20:38.177 things as, as, um, yeah, I think that's making a huge difference. 00:20:38.177 --> 00:20:41.117 And it's sort of starting at the right place, right. 00:20:41.492 --> 00:20:42.542 I hope so. 00:20:42.842 --> 00:20:48.422 Nancy: I hope so, because appealing to adults hasn't worked and there's 00:20:48.422 --> 00:20:50.852 legislation at least in the United States. 00:20:50.882 --> 00:20:56.732 Okay, so now the, the cages are large enough that a dog can lay down. 00:20:57.512 --> 00:21:00.872 Um, whoopie, do you know it? 00:21:00.872 --> 00:21:05.282 There's nothing about how the dogs need social engagement 00:21:05.282 --> 00:21:07.682 with humans, with other dogs. 00:21:08.042 --> 00:21:09.032 They need blankets. 00:21:09.032 --> 00:21:10.772 They need enrichment toys, they. 00:21:11.702 --> 00:21:13.592 They need to be fed more than once a day. 00:21:13.592 --> 00:21:15.032 They need clean water. 00:21:15.362 --> 00:21:19.832 They need to be in a climate controlled environment so it 00:21:19.832 --> 00:21:21.722 doesn't get too hot or too cold. 00:21:23.132 --> 00:21:23.822 Come on. 00:21:24.542 --> 00:21:29.312 And having been in puppy mills and looked into the eyes of those dogs, 00:21:29.312 --> 00:21:33.812 well, oh, I just can't not work on this. 00:21:34.227 --> 00:21:36.607 Anke: Mm, I don't, you know what I, I. 00:21:37.322 --> 00:21:40.832 Like, I admire you for being able to go in there because it's almost 00:21:40.832 --> 00:21:42.092 like it's gotta be heartbreaking. 00:21:42.602 --> 00:21:43.202 You know? 00:21:43.442 --> 00:21:46.592 I always think like a dog looks you straight into the soul anyway. 00:21:46.592 --> 00:21:50.732 And you know, seeing like this, it's just, it's just horrific. 00:21:50.882 --> 00:21:54.572 I mean, this is a very public invitation. 00:21:54.572 --> 00:21:58.037 Like once your book is out, I would love to have you back too, you know. 00:21:58.037 --> 00:21:58.317 Thank you. 00:22:05.442 --> 00:22:10.212 Um, showcase that in a thank you for another, for another round. 00:22:10.482 --> 00:22:15.192 So in the meantime, where could people, you know, get your books, find out 00:22:15.192 --> 00:22:16.932 more about you, connect with you? 00:22:17.952 --> 00:22:21.882 Nancy: Um, so one easy way to connect with me is via my Substack, and I 00:22:21.882 --> 00:22:24.102 know you write on Substack as well. 00:22:24.702 --> 00:22:34.692 And the Substack, uh, website is k, my last name KN for nancy.substack.com. 00:22:34.982 --> 00:22:36.662 So that's a way to find me there. 00:22:37.022 --> 00:22:41.222 Um, I'm working on a new website, author website, um, which will 00:22:41.222 --> 00:22:52.052 be DR Nancy k uh, dot com and uh, I'm working on the kids website, 00:22:52.052 --> 00:22:54.122 animals United for Animal Welfare. 00:22:54.212 --> 00:22:59.552 My old website, which still exists, is speaking for spot.com. 00:23:00.137 --> 00:23:01.127 So those are cool domain. 00:23:02.327 --> 00:23:02.627 Yes. 00:23:02.627 --> 00:23:07.937 Don't feel that that's, uh, a variety of ways to catch up with me 00:23:07.937 --> 00:23:10.757 and I always respond to questions. 00:23:11.417 --> 00:23:12.077 Always, 00:23:12.647 --> 00:23:12.917 Anke: always. 00:23:13.007 --> 00:23:13.697 Wonderful. 00:23:13.817 --> 00:23:15.017 Well, thank you so much. 00:23:15.257 --> 00:23:19.937 And I'm, I'm like, I'm getting the books now because I think they, 00:23:19.937 --> 00:23:24.467 they really feel like, uh, mandatory reading for any, for any dog. 00:23:25.067 --> 00:23:27.047 Guardian who wants to be that advocate. 00:23:27.047 --> 00:23:28.787 And I think that's, that's what we're here for. 00:23:28.787 --> 00:23:30.797 So thank you so much for You're welcome. 00:23:32.057 --> 00:23:32.867 Nancy: You're welcome. 00:23:33.797 --> 00:23:35.237 It's been a pleasure meeting 00:23:35.897 --> 00:23:35.957 Anke: you. 00:23:35.957 --> 00:23:36.707 Same, same. 00:23:36.707 --> 00:23:37.187 Likewise. 00:23:37.187 --> 00:23:37.577 Likewise. 00:23:37.607 --> 00:23:39.917 Nancy: And by the way, I love reading your substack. 00:23:40.817 --> 00:23:41.297 Anke: Oh, thank you. 00:23:42.137 --> 00:23:42.617 Thank you. 00:23:42.617 --> 00:23:43.277 Nancy: They're great. 00:23:43.367 --> 00:23:44.147 They're awesome. 00:23:44.674 --> 00:23:45.904 Thanks so much for listening. 00:23:46.424 --> 00:23:50.724 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:23:50.824 --> 00:23:52.604 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:23:53.394 --> 00:23:56.884 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:23:57.314 --> 00:24:02.884 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:24:02.984 --> 00:24:05.354 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:24:05.354 --> 00:24:09.084 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:24:09.504 --> 00:24:10.644 I'd love an introduction. 00:24:11.124 --> 00:24:12.954 Email me at Anke. 00:24:13.224 --> 00:24:17.459 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.