Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome Nancy.
I'm super excited to have you here.
Nancy: Thank you.
I'm excited to be here.
Anke: Wonderful.
So we ha we just had a little discussion on makeup of all things that we both not
interested in, so it was quite funny.
Um, so let people know where in this lovely world are you based and you know,
as always, what's your business with dogs?
Nancy: Sure.
So I live in California.
Um.
I moved here in 2020.
I'd been in California before, but then I spent a decade in North Carolina
and now I'm back, um, coincident with the birth of my oldest grandchild.
Uh, I live in northern California in the San Francisco Bay area.
Uh, dogs.
I, I like to say that I, uh, left the womb in love with animals,
and by the age of 10, I knew that I wanted to be a veterinarian.
And lo and behold, that's what I became.
Um, I went to veterinary school at Cornell and then came to California
to U University of California Davis to do residency training and became a
specialist in small animal veterinary medicine, and I practiced for 35 years.
I'm retired from clinical practice, although I still have
a license so I can take care of my friends and loved ones dogs.
Cats.
Um, and I, so I practiced, had a very lovely fulfilling career and
in 2008, um, I wrote my first book and I can tell you about why I wrote
it, if you like, but, uh, I wrote my first book and then that led to more
writing, blogging for many, many years.
I continue to blog weekly, and since then I wrote another book.
And I am releasing a third book this year.
Anke: Very exciting.
So now obviously I can't, like you've, you've made it easy.
I can't, I can't help take the bite.
Um, so what made you write, like what inspired, you know, because I mean, you
know, I've written a book, there's a lot of work in it, so you don't do that in
unless you feel you have something to say.
You know, what inspired the first one and um, you know, how did that story evolve?
Nancy: And approximately 2006, as you know, women of a certain age
have mammograms, routine screening mammograms, and something showed
up on the mammogram, which led to other procedures in a biopsy, and the
biopsy revealed some atypical cells.
And it, I was, it was recommended that I have what's called a lumpectomy,
a surgical removal of that area.
And I happened to have a client who was a pathologist, meaning looking at
tissue samples under the microscope, and his specialty was breast tissue.
And so I contacted him and he said, yeah, bring the slides
over, bring the mammogram over.
We'll look, and I went to his office.
And he's the person who wrote the textbook on breast pathology.
Like he is the guy.
And uh, and he said, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
This is why people get concerned about these cells, but nothing to worry about.
And so I left the office so relieved and thinking, wow, you know, it's my
medical advocacy skills that allowed me to avert and needless surgery.
Wow.
And how does the average person do that?
I mean, I have all this medical wisdom and knowledge.
I know how to do it, but how does the average Joe know how to do it?
And so I thought, I wonder if I could teach people how to do this.
And I felt it would be presumptuous for me to write a
book pertaining to human medicine.
So I wrote a book about dogs called Speaking for Spot.
Be the Advocate Your dog needs to live a happy, healthy, longer life.
And originally I thought it would just be lists of questions to ask
the doctor, but you're veterinarian.
But it became so much more, um, became a bestseller and many people told me
that yes, it applied to their dogs, but they took the same advice with
them when they went to the doctor.
So that was the evolution of speaking for Spot, which has
kind of become my brand name.
I'm publishing my next book, um, under Speaking for Spot Press.
Anke: Oh wow.
So, I mean, that I love, I love that so much because literally soul touched
by dogs was born 'cause of that.
Oh.
I ended up like, okay, found a puppy in the street now walk, right?
Yeah.
So, and it was always that, um, sense that I didn't, I knew I didn't know anything.
So I started looking at learning and.
I was advised by beds, by trainers, by, you know, didn't make sense, you know?
Yes.
And there was always that, Hmm, you can't take at face value what you're being told.
So that whole journey of knowing I don't know anything, so I'm gonna
believe anything anybody tells me to.
I need to educate myself so that.
I can make an informed decision and I can kind of weigh up one opinion against
another and, and sort of, you know, be an advocate for my dog, you know?
Right.
'cause the dog will fall through the cracks between all the different
opinions and different approaches.
And so the advocacy of it is, is really what, what sparked this
whole, this whole project, you know?
But you come at this from the, from the, um, medical angle.
Nancy: Correct.
And in my book I convey that you, the person who takes care of that
dog, you are actually the team captain of your dog's healthcare.
Mm.
And you have veterinarians.
You have trainers, have a lot of people, uh, that you rely on for
advice, but you, you are the team cap.
And you get to make the tough decisions.
Anke: Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's the thing.
It's like, I guess it's, I guess it's no different than having kids in a sense.
Right.
You know, it's also like, yeah, you don't go to school for that, you know?
Right.
And you have to make the decisions and, and choose who to trust and who you don't.
So I guess it's not that different, but I somehow.
Didn't quite see that coming when I found that little puppy in the street, you know?
Yes.
I didn't realize there was gonna be so much conflicting advice and so much,
you know, outdated advice that was still kind of like regurgitated as if nothing
else had been discovered since, you know?
Yes, yes.
So, so what inspired the other books after, after that?
So.
You just, did you get bitten by the writing book then?
Nancy: Um, I, yeah.
I definitely have the writing bug as evidenced by how much I've
blogged once a week for years.
Um, the second book, uh, is called, uh, your Dog's Best Health, A Dozen
Reasonable Things To Expect From Your Vet.
Mm-hmm.
People sometimes have difficulty expressing their needs and
opinions with their veterinarian.
Their veterinarian, they put on a pedestal.
And that's not, that's not what I encourage anyone to do it.
I encourage what we call relationship centered care, where it's a team approach,
not just sitting and being told what to do, but discussions of options and.
What makes the most sense for your dog, who you know better than anyone else,
and what makes sense for you, what you can afford, your lifestyle, all of that.
Um, and so many people didn't really know what's reasonable
to expect from their vet.
And it's reasonable to expect a lot of things that people often don't get.
And I encourage, like, can
Anke: you give a.
Nancy: Sure.
Um, discussion of all options and the cost for all options.
Uh, there may be a best approach, but if it's not affordable,
it's not the best approach.
Um, yes.
And that your veterinarian encourages you to be part of the team,
not just being told what to do.
Um, things like that.
Oh, uh, for example.
Many people leave their pets in the hospital overnight not
knowing that there's no one there with the dog overnight.
And if your dog is sick enough to be in a hospital overnight, there
should be someone providing care.
So 24 hour care is something that, uh, is reasonable to expect from your vet.
And if they don't provide 24 hour care, they should refer
you to a facility that does.
So various things like that
Anke: that Yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's reminds me of a conversation
with a friend I had, like where that was literally the case, you know, where Yeah.
The dog was there overnight and you know, they came in the morning and she had
smashed the glass of that each thing and you know, probably eaten some of it in
that, you know, in her distress state.
Yeah.
Nobody was there, you know, so it's like, yeah, it's kind.
You wouldn't even think that.
Right.
You would not imagine that they just go close people and come back to Exactly.
Yeah.
Totally.
I, I think it's also that, that asking for a second opinion and
I, you know, I'm, I, I only know, like, I've not had a dog before.
I lived in Spain, so I only know the way it goes here.
And I definitely often found it quite frustrating, you know, so to
ask for, Hey, what are the options?
They will all just tell you one.
Nancy: Right.
That's not okay.
Anke: You know, and I not, well, don't you, then I'll go, you know, I'm, but
I'll research everything I can, you know, to sort of see and, and, um.
I mean, example was the, the first girl I had, you know, and so it was
like, okay, I don't want puppies, like, you know, all I knew she was a
puppy still, you know, and I'm like, I all, all I know is like I don't
want to have a whole bunch of puppies.
So what are the options right?
Literally every, I called every single, I called five different beds.
And then every single one said, oh, well, you know, we just need to take
everything out like before the first hit.
And I'm like, from what I've read, that's not kind of the only option.
And I remember friends in Germany, people told me that there are other
different ways and different approaches and you know, I'm thinking timing.
I expected them to say, well, here are the options.
Here's the one I recommend, here's why.
That's what I was hoping for.
And none of them actually gave that.
Exactly.
They all said the same thing.
You know, this is the, on the only way, and, and then I, I have a trust problem.
You know, if I think they don't know, then I don't really trust them anymore,
Nancy: you
Anke: know?
Right.
Nancy: In my book, uh, speaking for Spot, there's a whole chapter, uh, on this.
It's titled A Second Opinion Is a Second Opinion is Always Okay.
Hmm.
And that's true for us as well with our own medical care.
And people get hung up on requesting a second opinion from their veterinarian.
They're worried that they're going to hurt their veterinarian's feelings.
And what I say is what's more important?
Dog's health or your veterinarian's feelings, and to
me that's, that's a no brainer.
Anke: Hmm.
Nancy: Yeah.
Yeah.
Anke: But I guess then you are almost like, you also, between, if you have vet
number one says this and vet number two says something the opposite, and then
you don't know which ones, right, right.
Then you,
Nancy: then you go to vet number three, or you consult with a specialist
Anke: who's
Nancy: going to be most up to date, most current on what's involved.
There's four different ways to spay a dog.
Um, I recently blogged about all those different ways.
Mm-hmm.
And actually Europe is more progressive about this than
veterinarians in the United States.
Anke: Mm-hmm.
Nancy: And so it's very common in Europe, for example, to simply remove the ovaries.
And leave the uterus in place in the United States.
It's very rare that veterinarians do that.
They remove the uterus and the ovaries.
Anke: Yeah.
Nancy: And removing the uterus isn't at all necessary, and it involves more
trauma, more time, more surgical time.
So, um, yeah.
Uh, and there's also ovary sparing spay.
So the dog is still producing hormones, but she can't conceive.
Um, and there's a, well, I've
Anke: heard of all of this from my friend in Germany because there they did have
all these, that was even like a pill or something, you know, there's all these
different options, you know, and then you come here and, and they go, oh no,
you just kind of have to like, before you know, they can even like walk basically.
Nancy: Well, there's also a lot of data about the timing
of Spain in particular breeds.
And I have all that research on a website.
Called spay neuter advice.com
and for, and it's for certain breeds, neutering before a year to a year and
a half of age, increases the incidences of orthopedic issues and increases the
incidences of certain types of cancers.
And it's, it's very brief, specific.
So, um, veterinarian should be taking all of that into account when advising
on the methodology for neutering.
With male dogs, I questioned if a dog really needs to be neutered,
if the owner is responsible and can prevent unintentional litters.
Um, yeah, and, and the timing of the neutering is also important,
so, uh, there's a lot to consider.
It's not just neuter between four and six months of age.
That's all you need to know.
There's a lot more to consider these days.
Anke: No.
And I do
Nancy: find, by the way, that veterinarians, at least in the
United States, it usually takes them 10 to 20 years to begin
to adopt the newest research.
So for example, when we learned that dogs don't need to be vaccinated once a year
for everything, it took veterinarians in the United States about 20 years.
To really embrace that.
Anke: Well, they haven't started here.
No, no, they haven't started yet.
Like this looks like, it looks to me like what's going on here is, is like 20, 30
years behind of everybody else, you know?
And yeah, it's, it's, I guess it also evolves.
I mean, you know, I've literally heard like, like there was a, a, a Spanish vet
and she was very young actually, so she just sort of finished and she was in this.
Program and she was talking to this other person and they go, oh, well I've
just finished, like this is the last, like, I've just finished my studies.
I will never open a book again.
Like I'm done.
You know?
And I'm like, alright, like you've just disqualified yourself in
my book because I guess Exactly.
You know, like if there's any.
Field where ongoing learning would have to be, you know, it, it has to be
anything to do with medicine, right?
You don't wanna kind of stay stuck at what you learned when
you finished uni, you know?
Yes.
So, and somebody who comes in with that attitude is, yeah.
That learning thing.
I'm, I'm with that.
I thought that was scary.
Hmm.
Nancy: Um, and then is it okay for me to talk about my third book?
Anke: Oh, absolutely.
I was gonna ask you anyway.
So,
Nancy: um, as a human being, as a veterinarian, uh.
Probably my biggest soapbox issue, uh, it, it has to do with
anything having to do with animal welfare is a soapbox issue for me.
But in particular, puppy mills, and I believe that puppy mills exist in Spain.
I know they exist in the uk.
Um, and puppy mills are, are basically large commercial breeding facilities.
Where profit is prioritized over the humane treatment of the animals and
meeting the both the physical and psychological needs of the animals.
Many of the animals in puppy mills spend their entire lives in small
cages being bred cycle after cycle after cycle, and when they're useful
breeding life if it is over there.
They're eliminated.
They're in a variety of ways, many of which are unsavory.
So, um, I have grown weary of adults not getting the job done in
terms of eliminating puppy mills.
And the way that one eliminates puppy mills is to, to diminish the demand
for puppies coming from puppy mills.
So.
Um, do you, are you familiar with Greta Thunberg?
Yeah, I think that's her.
Yes.
And so she's a kid who's all about climate change, and I thought, you know what?
Maybe I need to teach kids about puppy mills.
And I thought I would write a nonfiction book because that's what I've written.
And I wrote a number of.
Of iterations of it, and I just thought, man, if I were a
kid, I would never read this.
And so I ended up writing a fiction book.
That's an adventure story about a 12-year-old girl that has a chance
encounter with a pregnant runaway golden retriever from a puppy mill.
Oh, and one thing leads to another.
She and her best friend discovered the puppy mill, and now it's a
matter of rescuing all of those dogs.
And it's going to be released later this year.
It's called a dog named 6 4 7, and I'm, I'm really excited about it because, and,
and I did have several beta readers, 11 middle grade beta readers, and most of
them had never heard about a puppy mill.
Never heard of puppy mills.
So I'm really excited to get this in the hands of kids at a time
when their awareness of the world around them is really budding.
Anke: Yeah.
Oh God, I love that.
I love that so much because that's, it's, thank you.
Literally, it's, it's, it's that next generation that, you know, where
when, when kids are taught something different, then the whole thing
can change in a fundamental way.
Yeah.
I mean, that feels like this, this is sort of mandatory reading and,
you know, schools and libraries and, and things like that.
Yes.
I
Nancy: hope I'm website sort of organization called.
Kids united for animal welfare and so puppy mills will be one of the
topics, but there's so many other topics they can become aware of.
Factory farming of animals.
What happens to all the male baby chicks that are born who aren't
going to be able to lay eggs?
There's just so many topics and uh, I would love for kids to become
fluent in animal welfare issues.
Anke: Yeah.
And they, you know, and a lot, and a lot of them do love, you know, like
kids when you, when you see, you know, I, I just love, love like sort of
four or five year olds, you know, when they still, the way they approach an
animal with that sense of like wonder and that, you know, like they're
open, they're open to things and yeah.
And I think it's, it's giving them a chance to, to learn about these
things as, as, um, yeah, I think that's making a huge difference.
And it's sort of starting at the right place, right.
I hope so.
Nancy: I hope so, because appealing to adults hasn't worked and there's
legislation at least in the United States.
Okay, so now the, the cages are large enough that a dog can lay down.
Um, whoopie, do you know it?
There's nothing about how the dogs need social engagement
with humans, with other dogs.
They need blankets.
They need enrichment toys, they.
They need to be fed more than once a day.
They need clean water.
They need to be in a climate controlled environment so it
doesn't get too hot or too cold.
Come on.
And having been in puppy mills and looked into the eyes of those dogs,
well, oh, I just can't not work on this.
Anke: Mm, I don't, you know what I, I.
Like, I admire you for being able to go in there because it's almost
like it's gotta be heartbreaking.
You know?
I always think like a dog looks you straight into the soul anyway.
And you know, seeing like this, it's just, it's just horrific.
I mean, this is a very public invitation.
Like once your book is out, I would love to have you back too, you know.
Thank you.
Um, showcase that in a thank you for another, for another round.
So in the meantime, where could people, you know, get your books, find out
more about you, connect with you?
Nancy: Um, so one easy way to connect with me is via my Substack, and I
know you write on Substack as well.
And the Substack, uh, website is k, my last name KN for nancy.substack.com.
So that's a way to find me there.
Um, I'm working on a new website, author website, um, which will
be DR Nancy k uh, dot com and uh, I'm working on the kids website,
animals United for Animal Welfare.
My old website, which still exists, is speaking for spot.com.
So those are cool domain.
Yes.
Don't feel that that's, uh, a variety of ways to catch up with me
and I always respond to questions.
Always,
Anke: always.
Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much.
And I'm, I'm like, I'm getting the books now because I think they,
they really feel like, uh, mandatory reading for any, for any dog.
Guardian who wants to be that advocate.
And I think that's, that's what we're here for.
So thank you so much for You're welcome.
Nancy: You're welcome.
It's been a pleasure meeting
Anke: you.
Same, same.
Likewise.
Nancy: And by the way, I love reading your substack.
Anke: Oh, thank you.
Thank you.
Nancy: They're great.
They're awesome.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.