Music.
To the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. And I'm Pastor Cameron.
And this is the Uncut Podcast. We have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and
ministry, and today we're just gonna turn on the mics and kind of have some conversation,
continue the conversation we were just beginning to have. Last week we talked about deconstruction,
And I thought it'd be interesting to just start off with like, that's a, you know, seems
like a very popular topic right now.
But there was one thing that I had in when I was reflecting on that conversation post,
having that conversation last week when we recorded it was I wanted to clarify that I
don't necessarily think, or I do think, let me say this.
Deconstruction does not always move in the direction from conservative to liberal, right?
Or in the direction from, I have faith now and I'm moving in the direction of no faith. Yes, yeah.
I think the stories that get a lot of, maybe get talked about a lot,
are the ones that we maybe focus on because they're the ones that maybe make us most anxious
or something like that,
are the ones where people move from faith to non-faith or from conservative to liberal,
because we're like, oh my gosh, they're becoming liberal or something like that.
But lots of people, I can think of a couple who went from arguably a more liberal space to.
And I say liberal in a general frame, I don't actually mean like liberal and conservative
in a political sense, but, and then became more conservative in their expression of faith.
And, you know, and that's in a lot of ways, people's move, like anytime someone comes to a place,
of non-faith or atheism into faith, right?
That's like, you know, so I guess the deconstructionism or deconstructing does not lead you necessarily
in only one direction.
Yeah, it seems to me like we could probably define it more or we could not more, not better,
but just in that deconstruction kind of represents
the transforming of a general worldview, even a theological worldview.
So like whether that's moving from one side of the spectrum to the next, or.
And wherever you wherever you would start on that spectrum So if you would start on the evangelical side and move to the liberal side or yeah or conservative or whatever you're whatever you're preferred,
labels are.
But Yeah, you ought you do often see you know people who have maybe lived a good portion of their lives,
without faith without any sense of hope for the future,
without any regard for a relationship with Jesus.
And it's usually, in my experience, through some circumstances, some sort of circumstance
where they come to the realization that the worldview that they were holding
or the way in which they were processing the world and living life did not have significant answers
answers or meaning for either what they're experiencing or life in general.
And so they actually deconstructed the worldview that says, I don't need anything or anyone
but myself and turned to life in Jesus.
And we would consider that deconstruction as well, that deconstructed a godless worldview
into one where they are now relying on Jesus.
Right. Yeah. So, it's a, yeah, it doesn't necessarily move in one direction. No.
It's just sometimes the other directions that it tends to move, we tend to use other words for that.
Right. Like, you know, finding faith, coming to Jesus, like, we don't typically associate that with
deconstructing. Right.
But, you are deconstructing something.
Yeah. Right? Or detangling. Did you have any other reflections on that conversation since we've had it?
I would say my reflections are that I am really sympathetic.
I feel really like pastorally sympathetic to those who are in like a deconstructive,
mind or like in a deconstructive pattern because my experience is that typically deconstruction happens out of a really negative experience with someone
who holds the worldview that the person used to hold. And it makes me,
it makes me sad that sometimes the worldview or like say we're talking about someone who's moving from maybe a conservative evangelical position to
to either faithlessness, faithlessness in general,
disregard for the church, disregard for the scriptures, for Jesus himself or whatever.
I am really sympathetic to that process and that position because it usually happens,
as a reaction to a really negative experience that a person has had with a person who holds that
rather than the belief structure itself.
Right, or sometimes a like church culture.
Right. It's not always necessarily located in a person, but.
Right, but there again, I think church culture is usually encapsulated in people.
Yeah. You know, like when people say, you know, I, oh, I have a lot,
well, we've talked maybe a little bit about this. Like I have a lot of church hurt.
You know, and they're kind of placing that hurt on the institution of the church as a whole.
Globally, historic, universally. Yeah, and while I understand that,
the reality is that we don't really actually have church hurt. We have people hurt.
People have hurt us, and sometimes a group of people have hurt us, maybe they have not advocated for us, or they have had
questionable moral or ethical character, or they have not led faithfully or well.
Or they have really unhealthy theology. Unhealthy theology, unhealthy personal culture, leadership culture, whatever.
But to say that the church has hurt is a little bit, I think, of throwing the baby out with
the bathwater and not considering that people hurt people.
And that the only way through hurt is forgiveness.
And that becomes a very large and difficult pill,
to swallow when you've been hurt. Yeah.
Well, the thing that is so sad is that the person who has caused hurt in those people's lives,
And if that becomes a significant reason to abandon faith or the abandon the church,
like that person continues to maintain a presence effect and like control over the outcome of that person's life.
If it's like this person or this church did something so awful to me,
they said this thing to me and I just like cannot, and so therefore I must abandon faith or church, right?
Really what you're doing is you're continuing allowing the effect of that hurt being done to you to some degree
if you choose the route of unforgiveness.
Well, and we very rarely go scorched earth on our lives.
Like we do with church, you know? So kind of as a classic, people will tell me a lot, I love Jesus, but I just can't stand the
church. And I've said this many times, like, Jesus is not overly impressed with that sentiment.
Because Jesus loves the church, and the scriptures say that he died for the church,
and he's the head of the church, and the church is his body, and the church is his bride, and,
like, lots of truth that Jesus loves the church. So to say that we love Jesus but we hate the
church is not something that really impresses Jesus or that he would advocate for. But I
I understand the sentiment that exists there,
but what happens is we very rarely take that type,
of attitude with really anything else in life.
For instance, if you go to a restaurant.
And you have a really horrible experience. The server is rude and you there's hair in your food,
right and you know they overcharge you and you know whatever you have a bad bad bad experience.
You don't say I hate restaurants. I'm never eating out at a restaurant ever again.
You kind of take a little bit of step back and you have some you gain some perspective about like I had a really,
negative experience at that particular,
Restaurant and sometimes if you've gone to that restaurant and you frequented it and you've had really good experiences prior,
You chalk it up to a fluke, correct?
Or you might talk to the manager and the manager might say oh wow I don't know how this happened or I'm so sorry for how this happened and how can we make this right?
You actually kind of pursue your own sense of you know, like justice or just for the flea in my suit,
Or reconciliation or whatever you want to say, but very rarely Do you say I am never going to another restaurant ever again?
The whole institution of restaurants is tainted and gross and horrible and forever and ever and ever
I love eating food, but I hate restaurants destroy tips, right?
We don't do that, right? So So...
So I think that it would be, but I think that there's something much deeper and more emotionally
tied and more significant to our relationship with churches that puts us in the space of
being willing to do that when we're not willing to do that with other things.
And I honestly think seeing over the last 20 years people do that, I honestly think that it is,
is, part of it is demonic, I do think that the enemy will take the littlest thing, and
I'm not saying that every church, that every hurt that you experience in the context of
church is little, that's not what I'm saying at all.
Some of it is very, very significant and very, very big.
What I'm saying is, I think that the enemy will use anything that he possibly can to
to leverage people's disconnection from the body of Christ.
Because if he can get them separated from Christ, if he can separate the branch from the vine,
then the branch dies, it withers away, and it's useful and good for nothing.
And so I don't think that we're talking just about a thing where, well, churches just need to do better.
They do, but I think we'd be silly to say that it's only, that's the only thing that's going on here,
is that just people are flaky.
No, I think that there is a very significant spiritual battle going on that we do not always see
or recognize that is actively seeking to destroy those who follow Jesus, period.
You know, I'm, I'm thinking of one particular, one particular deconstruction story that.
Some famous, famous person in the Christian world, I'm not gonna talk about,
I'm not gonna name the specifics or whatever, cause it's not, it's not really pertinent to the point,
but they had, they were like heavily involved in ministry and leading in a church,
And they had a really awful experience.
I think they were, if I remember the story correctly, they were trying to conceive and have a child
and they were having miscarriages and they weren't able to have a kid.
And somebody or multiple people came up to them in the church and said, you know,
well, if you can't conceive, it must be because of sin.
Or you do not have enough faith or something like that.
And- I mean, not to interrupt you, but Sherry and I, my wife and I after infertility for seven years.
Before we adopted, well, infertility for our entire marriage, we have people tell us that. Right. Right.
That, you know, you guys obviously aren't believing in faith strongly enough. Obviously.
Right. I have so many feelings about that because I think it's so wrong.
Yeah.
And extremely biblically ignorant to the testimony of scripture. Yeah.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. It just is. Yeah.
And the thing is, is I'm like, so many stories are things like that, where they experience
something or someone comes and says something or states a belief, maybe says it with authority
even like saying it's biblical or something like that.
I'm just like, that does not represent Christ, does not even closely represent what the Bible
teaches regardless of what they think it says. That is, you wanna talk about the, if I was to
take the book of Job and I was to maybe rewrite it as a new parable for the modern age, I'd do it
with that scenario of like not being able to conceive or a miscarriage and then friends
coming and saying, well, then you must be doing X, Y, and Z. That's the plot of Job.
Right. And God's like, you're all wrong. Right.
Right. Like that's, there isn't necessarily an answer to be had for why all of suffering happens to us.
Right. Right. Yeah. Or there is a big comprehensive answer that we, it's not yet revealed, or that is encapsulated in the brokenness of the world,
and that will be redeemed through Jesus Christ. But yeah, for sure and for certain, those types of,
of comments happen, and they often are true.
So extraordinarily uncompassionate or without compassion, without nuancing really the frailty of human life
or human experience or the brokenness of the world.
Yep. Right? And really can.
It can wreck damage in people's lives. Yes. Absolutely can. Yep.
In a significant, significant way.
The comments like that, I don't want to be unduly harsh, because I know that a lot of times comments like that
come out of ignorance or come out of discomfort for the situation.
They want to find a way to solve or fix it and put it into a category,
even though it's not their suffering.
But it really just, for me, what's coming to mind is the mocking of Christ.
Like, if you're the son of Christ, why don't you come down from the cross?
Like, for me, comments like that feel similar to that.
Like they, it feels like you're coming to Christ and saying like, well, if you just had enough faith,
you wouldn't be on the cross. Right.
Yeah. But the Christian life is a cruciform life. Right. Yeah, completely disregarding the fact
that like God's purposes were greater and that Christ understood that.
And so he stayed on the cross because that was what was needed and that, you know.
Whatever, in whatever ways that we either understand or don't understand that suffering was a part of that plan
or a part of that process.
Yeah, which is not a popular.
Not a not a popular, you know, you're not gonna see like well, you maybe will see that on the Instagram real once in a while
but well, you're more likely to get a like Jesus wants you to get up today and seize the day and have a great day and,
you know achieve your goals like,
Motivational Jesus. Yeah, rather like yeah rather than Jesus wants you to get up today and pick up an instrument of death,
And in all in every area of your life absolutely die
Unto yourself, unto others, unto your plans or your opinions, and suffer for him because
we know that suffering with him is unity with him, right?
And all those who suffer with Christ, all those who follow Jesus suffer with him.
Yeah. There's a quote, and I won't be able to say it correctly, but I know it was by St.
John of the Cross, and he said something to the effect of, do you suffer, do you experience
inconvenience or pain, look to the cross, right?
Like that's like the solution to whatever it is that you're going through.
If you're like, there is a God, there is person, there is Christ who identifies with our suffering
and who, through which we have healing and promise of a future and like,
let us look to the cross in the midst of suffering and be reminded that God was crucified.
Right, yes.
So yeah, I mean, in general, the conversation of deconstruction,
I'm sympathetic with those who are going through
a pattern of deconstruction, maybe because of comments or experiences that they have had
that have been damaging or hurtful,
but that probably exist in a context of very little nuance nuance or very little comprehensive understanding of the scripture may be said out of a sense
of wanting to say the right thing or wanting to say something.
But also sometimes things are said to people in order to leverage guilt and shame against
them and that ends up causing just a lot of damage.
So I would cherish the opportunity.
To sit down with those types of people and to hold space open for a more compassionate,
truthful still, we don't have to abandon principles.
In order to maintain a compassionate response to people who have significant questions
about their faith or their relationship with God or their relationship with the church.
I don't think we can do that. We can do it faithfully. We should do it faithfully.
We should, yeah. There's, I think, I think when we react harshly to stories of, if someone comes and experiences doubt,
someone who's coming in and doing a,
is in a process of deconstruction, I think our harsh reaction usually comes out
comes out of a place of fear or insecurity and a wanting to give the right answer that solves it,
that fixes it, that makes them being, that makes the person who's experiencing doubt or,
deconstruction, like go back to just as perfectly form-fitted, like understanding where they were.
But ultimately what we have to do, and this is ultimately like the call to us as pastors,
is to trust people to Christ.
Yep. Is to say like, I am not responsible, nor can I even on my best days,
like be responsible for control, manipulate or impact their choices,
their deconstruction, their faith.
I have to trust them to the great shepherd and simply be a instrument of him.
Him. Yes. That's right. And so I think, I think that's the,
anytime you're dealing with anyone, a loved one or someone who's an unbeliever or someone who is a believer,
but going through deconstruction or doubt or wrestling or sin,
there's this place of coming to and like, Lord, I have to trust them to you.
And when you do that, I think we're less prone to do things that would push them away.
And I think we have a better.
We have more capacity to hold space and allow people to go through what they're going through
and trust the outcome to God ultimately. Do you have a sense that people's discomfort,
with people around them deconstructing is at least in some parts wrapped up in their own.
Fear of what if the thing that I have been believing this whole time actually isn't
the thing that I should believe or right.
And so I'm kind of gonna like, I'm gonna overcompensate by making sure
that this person continues to hold my perspective
because if they hold a different perspective,
it maybe may call into question the veracity of what I believe.
Yeah, definitely. That's very much what I think, which is in psychobabbles called projection. Right, yeah.
Like, that's what I think so much of, that's what I think a lot of stuff is.
I think any, I think if you look at a lot of, this is a broad statement,
so like I'm open to being corrected and I don't necessarily mean it applies
to every single situation,
but if you look at any segment of Christianity or Christian leader or Christian who is responding
in really strong, vehement, loud,
like demanding, controlling ways,
behind that is almost always fear, projection, insecurity.
It's like when you talk about people who are like.
Massively angry at like people for living alternative sexual lifestyles Like you on the other side of that is like probably someone who has a whole lot of guilt and shame over their own,
sin or desires or,
or at least,
That tendency exists. Like you said, it's not,
not every single time but like it's,
More often than not when I see someone react harshly to somebody else else, they almost always have something that they have not yet experienced God's grace
impact in their internal life yet.
Right, right.
Yeah, I, I agree with that. Like it.
There's the cultural saying that confidence is silent and insecurity is very loud.
I've not heard that before. That's a perfect way of putting that.
Yeah, I think that that that maybe holds true for the way in which we interact with people around that.
But confidence doesn't, and you might change your, whatever your word is there for confidence,
but it doesn't require us to power up and be louder than the person that we disagree with.
But when we're really insecure in our belief, we feel necessary to like, we have to be louder
because what if, what if we're wrong?
What do you think, maybe we talked a little bit about this last time, I don't really recall,
but what would be maybe the most.
I suppose the relationship is different, but the most compassionate, understanding,
but still principled way in which we would interact with maybe, let's just say a loved one
that is deconstructing in a,
what we would perceive to be a negative way. Yeah.
You know, I read, there's a really good book that I didn't mention.
I believe it is called After Doubt.
It's a book that seeks to hold the balance I think we're trying to have here
of like not all deconstruction is bad, but like do it with guardrails.
How do you detangle but not, you know, toss out what is good as well.
You know, I think the big, I think you're always you're one of your biggest
encouragements to me consistently is to listen, right? That's probably like the biggest things
like can I hear and not just hear, but can I understand? Can I listen? Can I let them
explain to me from point A to point B with not critical questions, but like discerning questions,
It's just like, so you're saying this particular incidence or this thing really, but could you tell me more about that?
Can I put on a genuine capacity of curiosity to understand what is the other person's going through.
So that I can hear and then I can truly understand?
Can I say back to them what they've said to me in a way that they agree, right?
Can I say, so you are saying X, Y, and Z, da, da, da, da, da, da, da,
and it would be right to say this, and then they say, yes.
If you've gotten to that point, right, you have listened, and the amount
that that probably means to that person is immense, right?
You might just be surprised at how much that just levels down the conversation entirely.
Yeah, you know, like in the counseling world, from a clinical standpoint,
they would call that a primary accurate empathy.
And I think sometimes when we're in that type of relationship, we feel the,
like say we're hearing someone, we feel the pressure to respond in a specific way.
Or to have an answer. And when we don't, we start to babble.
And so sometimes there is like, we do need to have a, or we might have an answer.
We might have a truth or something like that. But what I find is the most like,
affirming of the person, not necessarily the belief, but affirming of the person is to essentially
just restate to them my understanding of what they just said.
And usually when that happens, oh, so what I hear you say is that you feel very betrayed
by the people that were supposed to be trusting,
and leading you in a positive direction, an example in your faith,
and that's made you really question whether or not you wanna be a part of something like that again.
Yes, that's exactly true. And then what happens is, and da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da, because
when they hear, when it's reflected back on them, that, oh my gosh, I've been heard, I've.
Been understood, someone else is holding that space of empathy for me, right?
It kind of opens the door now to, and I feel this way, and this happened,
and, and, and, and, and.
All the other things. All the other things that are behind the hurt that they're holding,
but that they've never been invited to talk about because no one has genuinely listened to the first hurt, the primary hurt.
It's not safe to talk about those things. Yeah.
And then I think the thing for, this isn't going to be the, again,
like I'm not giving solutions that fit every scenario,
but if someone is truly like, after having some genuine hearing,
some genuine healing and listening.
And the person who's deconstructing might need to come to a wrestling point of saying,
I am not God, God is God.
Coming back to, I've been reflecting on and since I've read it, and I've shared it a couple
different places now, Job 28, where Job reflects on wisdom, he's like, where can you find wisdom?
You cannot find it.
And then ultimately, he says that God is the only person who knows where wisdom is.
And he has said to mankind, that wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and understanding is to flee from evil.
And, right? Yeah. And you want to, like, Proverbs says, the beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord.
And I would say that in a lot of ways, that's the beginning of faith.
And it's a primary facet of, do you, like, maybe you're deconstructing and you're like,
really, because sometimes when unhealthy deconstruction is happening, what's coming up
against is what seems to be the mystery of God or the revealed will of God comes in the conflict
with what we want, and then we want to conform things to fit what we want. And what we need to
do is we need to come back to a place of fear of the Lord, and then understanding is fleeing from
sin. And that is the guardrail that I think is the backstop of much deconstruction. If you get to a
place where in your most honest moments, you're just like, I think what I'm doing is I'm molding
God into what I want. If in your most honest moments, if that's the conviction you come to,
you need to stop.
Yeah. It's, it is, you know, in its most, like in the most honest terms, it's self idolatry. Yes.
You know, it's the idolatry of self, the idolatry of individualism.
Of I am a God unto myself.
And so whatever is appropriate for me to believe is what is now true, which is...
Extraordinarily dangerous if you still have a conception of the reality of God.
You know, you better, you better really quickly, you better really quickly come to a place
of whether or not you think God is real and alive.
And all of the things because, you know, I think from a really, just a basic standpoint,
if I were taking a very clinical, sterile approach to it.
If there is a God, he likely believes things and thinks things and is probably not really eager
to compromise on the things that he thinks and believes because he is God, right?
And so what level of security do we have or do you have in the midst of your deconstruction
or the place where you end up
that the positions that you hold are the positions that God holds?
And it seems like it would be a really dangerous position to be like, no, I have now arrived at the place
for I am sure and confident that the positions that I hold are the exact positions that God holds.
But that's often what the conclusion is.
And tread my very sincere pastoral wisdom, and that would be tread very lightly
when you come to a place of like, no, God and I completely are in unity about this thing.
Right, and the funny thing is, is that that's the same advice I imagine
we would probably give someone who is in a place
of like absolute militant resistance to deconstruction.
Or like, again, if we're dealing with someone who's just like in a place of like, I know.
Extraordinary legalism. Extraordinary legalism. This is the theological system.
That everyone must. This is the only position.
Right, this is the only, you know, when we come into secondary issues and all of that,
and like a kind of an anger, my way or the highway type of Christianity, like, really?
Right? Fear of the Lord. Yes. Right. His ways are higher than my ways.
Let me not presume that I have discerned the mind of the Lord.
Sure. Sure. It'd be, I think, another interesting topic for us to tackle. Probably not today.
Definitely not today. Would be to talk about what fear of the Lord is.
Yeah, I don't even know if I'd like that is such a it's such a big theological concept
Yeah that I think undergirds a lot of things in the Bible,
We don't necessarily talk about a lot. No, we don't and,
my experience, you know without getting too far into the conversation without actually getting into the conversation is,
My experience is that we try to nuance It out of being fear fear. Yeah, it's all it's honor. It's all it's worship
It's glory like why can't it just be fear?
You know does the Does the creation say to the Creator, you know, like,
The the clay does not say to the Potter You know, why have you formed me or this or that, right?
The creation does not say to the creator, does not question the creator.
Yeah. Isaiah is always, I always, when I think of fear of the Lord, I think of Isaiah.
It's Isaiah, right? Is encountering the throne room of the Lord and it's filled with this glory.
And what does he say? Woe is me.
I am ruined. Yes. Right. I am unclean. That is fear. That is not just reverence.
That is absolute terror.
Yep.
Right. Right. Counteracted again with like the words of C.S. Lewis, like describing Aslan, the
metaphor for God. Right. Is he safe? No, of course not. No, he's not safe. He's a lion. Yeah. Right.
But he's good. He's very good. Yeah. Oh, love it. Yeah. Beautiful picture.
Well, I mean, I don't know if, you know, any of you out there listening or watching today
have any other maybe questions or like feelings or thoughts on deconstruction in any direction
or any of the things that we talked about today. But if you do, we would love to hear your comments,
love to hear your questions about it, love to be able to talk about these things.
And we hope that you will comment or that you'll send in a question to our mailbag texting line, 716-201-0507.
And we will add that to a mailbag episode or just kind of take them as one-offs as we're feeling so led.
We do have a couple topics coming up that we'd like to talk about, but we're always Willing and ready to,
Maybe take a break and what we think we should talk about to hear what you all out there,
Want to talk about as always we ask if you enjoy this that you like,
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Would really appreciate that. Thanks for listening today, and we'll catch you on the next,
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See y'all next time.
Music.