It is time once again for another First Things First podcast. I am your host Dano and right across from me, I have Mac Miners. He is a board director for First Things First and founder. I gotta add that in there, Mac. And Don Haviger who's joining us on the phone this time.

He's your executive director for First Things First Foundation, but we have a lot to unpack for this show. And I'm very excited because as long as I can remember, for as long as I've lived here, I have heard so much about Juno's Second Crossing. When will they build the bridge Mac? When? When are they going to build the stuff out?

I feel like those things go hand in hand. When are they going to build the road and when are they going to build the bridge?

Forty more years. We're into forty already.

Personally, would love to see some traction on this in 2026. So I think it's a great topic to talk about for our First Things First podcast today. Remember, you can download any old podcast of First Things First or this episode at kinyradio.com. Don, let's open this up. Don Habiger, executive director of First Things First.

Why is Juno's second crossing so important to First Things First, Don?

Well, certainly as I've mentioned on other shows, our purpose is education about strong economy here in Southeast Alaska. And that is through development and natural resource management. And it is wise use of our resources. And certainly infrastructure and planning is a big component of the wise use of our resources. And so the second crossing, getting to the backside of Douglas, all of those things that keep our community growing.

And there's certainly some indicators that suggest our community is stagnant and maybe even declining. If you look at a population report from the state, it shows that we may decline. And so how do we turn those negative indicators around to positive? And we think, first things first, that something as important as a second crossing can let us grow again. So that's why we're interested in this project.

Where does the project even stand right now? I feel like this has been talked about so much. There's been studies done for this, right? Pell studies have been done for this already. Yes,

they have.

You bet. And you wanna take that one, Max?

Oh, I can I can hint on it and talk about it for a minute? Why and first things first, we invite people to come in and talk about what's going on around town. And we invited the state in and they gave us an overview of how far along they are on the project. And they're pretty much race ready. All they need to do I think is to get the city, light a fire underneath them, to pick the spot and start working on it.

And they have pretty much laid out where they really like to put it. And that's right at Switzer Creek where they built the overpass there and everything. And it's just a natural if you look at it because it's the shortest distance. And you know, a lot of these people have never lived here that long to realize how long it took them to build Outer Drive. I actually worked on one and two phases of that, and they brought a dredge in here.

And before that, the state workers and this people that work downtown at the Federal Building had to drive the old Glacier Highway. And let me tell you something, if you want to see traffic, that was bad. They even had to change the amount of hours so it didn't conflict with the federal government and the state governor government. That's when they went to the seven and a half hour workday and tried to beat so they could get leave town and get the traffic. But once they got the outer drive built, it seemed to just kind of roll right along.

Recently, the state completed their planning and environmental leakage study report, and that is a a formal planning document that identifies several locations, several options. And it's the precursor to going into the NEPA or a much more formal planning design process. So we are certainly getting closer to the second crossing. Why do we need a second crossing? One of the things that this, for short, Pell study showed is that a turnabout by Douglas Island there or on Douglas Island right by the bridge, and the bridge is at capacity or or nearing capacity.

And there are times when traffic just slows down because we're at that stage. So that's just another reason. Mac talked about Old Glacier Highway, and we're at that spot again. And Eagan Drive was the solution at one time, a second crossing is the solution for community growth this time. So that's why we're bringing this up.

And that's where we're at. We're at the Pell study process. And next part, and and, again, Mac referred to that, is state law talks about getting certain projects that are permissible across the Mineral Hall Game Refuge. And one is a transportation link, one is a port development, and one is airport infrastructure development. So it's only those three things that can be the wetlands can accommodate, and we need to accommodate the second crossing using that section of law.

So that's kinda where we're at. One of the things that I I kinda wanted to throw out on the table, and and as Mac said, the state and this was the Department of Transportation representatives. One of the things that we tossed around at at a first things first meeting was the safety issue. And I'm gonna bring out two items here. One is the state looks at various sites.

And each of these sites, they kind of grade, if you will. And so their study came up with five different sites. And let's see those sites are. And they call it Salmon Creek directly across kind of the Diepak area or the hospital area. Twin Lakes, and that is a section that bifurcates Twin Lakes and goes across to Douglas there.

Vanderbet Hill, and that's by the dump there. And then a little bit further, as Mac was talking about, kind of that overpass area in Eagan Drive that that was put in, I don't know what, ten years ago now. That's Sunny Pointe, and they do it two ways. Sunny Pointe East, which is on the downtown side of Sunny Pointe, and Sunny Pointe West, which is on the airport side. So, as Mac said, we would love to see it as far west as possible.

And here's one of the things that we learned is that and this was not fully investigated yet, and the state mentioned it in their report, and that is catastrophic Salmon Creek Dam failure. And anything that is near that that particularly near the Salmon Creek area may be threatened by a catastrophic failure of the Salmon Creek Dam. So they pointed that out in their PEL study, and it's something that we started to look at as an organization.

What did that know when you were studying on those dams, what did that tell you? Because I think this is important to point out when they're pointing out locations, especially when we dive into who's picking these locations and why. So what did it tell you between the difference of east and west, especially when it comes to the dams? What do we know about the Salmon Creek Dam and possibly other dams built around that time?

Well, excellent. What we what the state said in their report, and they also confirmed that when we had an opportunity to meet with some of their our DOT representatives, is that they don't know enough yet. And they're looking into into other reports and trying to dig more into that. So they really only mentioned it as a potential issue that needs further study, and they intend to follow those rabbit trails to study. But in preparation for this show, I did reach out to ALMP.

They are the owners of the Salmon Creek Dam, and I invited them to talk about safety issues. They did not get back to me. I also reached out to the CBJ emergency planner and planning manager, and that individual did not get back to me. So we were trying to get that perspective out in this show. And without them, we decided to do something a little bit different.

And that's where we came up with kind of this study. And so using a wonderful tool, AI, I think, many of us are using that to help us understand the world around us these days. I asked AI if there were any other dams similar to the Salmon Creek Dam that have had a catastrophic failure. And lo and behold, there is one. So in nineteen twenty eight six, the Saint Francis Dam in California was built.

And in 1928, had a catastrophic failure around midnight, and it it failed completely. What's interesting is the Salmon Creek Dam is built in 1914. They are similar in size, but not quite. And let's just kinda go over some of those numbers to to understand what we're looking at here. So the Saint Francis Dam is 200 feet 205 feet high or was.

And Salmon Creek Dam is a 175 feet high. And now here's where there's a big difference. The crest length or at least the top of the crest, and they were both arc type dams, gravity dams is how they define them. But the Saint Francis Dam was is twice was twice as long as the Salmon Creek Dam. So big difference there.

And so what that really means is that water capacity at the time of failure was estimated at 13,000,000,000 gallons. And what we know about 13,000,000,000 gallons since I live on View Drive, can watch 13,000,000,000 gallons rush by my house in twenty four hours. That is a whole lot of water. And in 2025, we know that that not quite 13 billions billion, but close to that flood approximately 300 households. So it's got some impact.

And the estimate if Salmon Creek fails is really quite minimal. It's about just under 6,000,000,000 gallons of water. So there are some differences, and I through through actual records. And the peak wave height of the Saint Francis Dam is a 180 feet, and that was the initial wave height. And then and these were witnesses and those kinds of things about that.

And the average speed of that water that rushed through, I think it was the San Clemente Valley, was 18 miles an hour, and it ended up in in the Pacific Ocean, 54 miles away as a wall of mud, rock, and trees. And and so that's what we know from history. Now, again, I gotta remind the folks that this is AI interpretation, but estimated wall of water, if we had catastrophic failure of the Salmon Creek Dam is a 130 to a 160 feet. So pretty high. And this is where it gets really interesting is that the average speed, because of the grade of of the valley there, is approximately 30 to 50 miles an hour.

And the good news is that Salmon Creek, I E A E L And P, they have a twenty four hour monitoring and a site sign. So we're all warned. Now instead of 53 miles to the Pacific Ocean where the Saint Francis Dam ends, we've got three miles to gas no channel. And so AI sorta estimates that the time to gas no channel is about ten minutes. So if you hear that siren and you're in that area, you don't want to wait.

You want to move because at a hundred hundred and fifty, 160 feet of water coming at you, you don't have much time. So those are some of the things that we just need to put on the on the table, if you will. We need to discuss it as a community. We need to put these issues on the table. And if we are going to build first of all, if we're gonna look at a site that could be threatened by a 100 foot way tidal wave or a debris wave coming down out of Salmon Creek Dam at at catastrophic failure.

Maybe we don't want to put a second crossing there because it would be damaged, and it could be be completely wiped out in the event of a dam failure, catastrophic dam failure. And how would we get to Bartlett Hospital, for example, from the Douglas Island if we were going to do that? It could be that that wave goes completely across Gassana Channel. In fact, there is an estimate, again, AI, that that wave is 20 to 30 feet high, that a secondary wave across the Gas Now Channel is going to impact about 25 to 35 miles an hour. And I was right.

Anywhere from 20 to 50 feet high pounding into the bank of Douglas Island there. And that secondary wave, I. E, bouncing off bedrock of the island there and coming back. So coming back to kind of the Bartlett area, hospital area, would be 10 to 25 feet high, traveling at 15 to 25 miles an hour. An estimated time of rock after going across the channel, bouncing off, coming back according to AI is, you know, ten to eighteen minutes.

So all that to say that the event is going to be certainly catastrophic, significant. It's going to wipe out anything that is built in that area. And this issue certainly needs to be explored fully by the state, by the city, and moving up as far away to ensure that we have resilient traffic patterns that gets our community, particularly in an emergency event like that, moving and folks to, you know, the airport if they're flying people out or whatever is vitally important in our second crossing choice.

So it's safe to say that the western site closest to the airport mitigates safety risks of everything that you just talked about. But that brings up the more important question of this and why I wanted to point this out and why I even asked this question. Where does the CBJ stand on this? Where do they want to pick or what what is their opinion or where they stand on this? Because, Meg, you even said in the beginning of this interview here on the First Things First podcast talking about Juno's Second Crossing that we're kind of waiting on the city.

Well, it's their choice. I mean, it's a dealer's choice deal here. Either they can take the potential catastrophic new bridge that'll be left and use that as their fill or go ahead and start the project. Because they started that prod talk about that project forty years ago and they didn't ever do anything and talk about it, throw it around, talk about it. But I think it's time for less talk, more action.

I know they got a lot on their plate with all the other things that have kinda fallen in their lap, but I think they I'm sure there's money available through federal stuff and highways, and we have not had a project around here, and I can't even count the years. Because for whatever reason, whether it's our legislative body or whether they're tied up in education or anything like that, they've kinda forgot the town and we're shrinking. And that would really help opening up Douglas Island out North Douglas and open up some land and get it rolling. Mean it just plays into that whole thing. It plays into Eagle Crest, it plays into Gold Belt's new project, it gives you a new site to take and put your boat in the water.

All those things can only help Juneau in expanding and have it more available for people to recreate or live.

Well, and it sounds like the state has a positive perspective on this and even supports it in some ways. They do.

Well, I I you know, and that's part of the Pell study, and it all wraps around purpose and need. And so they looked at the very core. Does could Juno use a second crossing? Would it meet the state's get Alaska moving overall, you know, goal? And the answers to that were were yes.

So so they've already done that work, and they say, we we can do this project. It lines up with the state's transportation goals, and really now the city needs needs to pick one of these locations. And, actually, I'm gonna throw this out because one of our board members talked about this the other day. I said early in the show that the Menenhall Peninsula was one of the options. The state took that off the table because of the soils out there didn't support pile driving, those kinds of things.

So those they were very concerned about that. And even if you you could get piles down far enough, they thought maybe the piles were were so would be so long before you hit bedrock that it would just be an astronomical cost. So it kinda dropped off the list, but here's our what our board member says. And, again, first things first, loves to think outside the box. So why not float a bridge or or why not put a floating road road out there and use our water.

Again, we have to discuss as a community, do we really need a gas now channel as a navigable channel? Do we use it that much? And I would defer to Mac on these issues because he's a lifelong fisherman, and he's been around here longer than I have. He's probably seen, at least I've pushed this for forty years, not many boats using that anymore.

That's a great question, Meg.

Well, how would you like me to answer it? Truthfully. Scope only. I mean, I've run my boat through there for many years, but right now, I don't think you you gotta have at least 17 feet of water to run a four foot draw boat through there. And it better be shallow draft.

And, even the skiffs I've taken my sport boat in and out, but man, and I fish that other end, and I know how shallow it gets. It's it dries up. And you get kind of catty corner to the airport. Even when you fly over it and you go, oh, there's no water anymore. And the trail between the pilasters really shouldn't be followed.

It's totally local knowledge. And, you know, few people get stuck up there, but, it's easier to either trailer your boat to Douglas, launch out Knock Bay, or unless you're a seasoned veteran of running the bar, you shouldn't do it unless you got a little skiff.

And and that's the point, you know, with all these years of hydrostatic rebound, the water just isn't what it used to be. And is it now time to repurpose that area and put a second crossing there? I think first things first, would submit its time to get our second crossing in. And if we have to re rethink the navigability of that end of the channel, maybe we should. And I think we discussed as a board that maybe the Coast Guard would love to give up the job of putting buoys in there every year because it's a lot of work and not much traffic in there.

Let me pose a question to you two then based on this what you're telling me. Do you think the backside of Douglas has any chance of developing any faster without this? Or is this just gonna be a huge catalyst that it needs to drive the backside of Douglas?

Well, it's gonna take at least three years to do it.

I feel like we gotta start thinking like that, Mac. We gotta start thinking about the future here in Juneau.

Well, that's the problem. They don't think positively that the longer you wait, the more it costs. And cost right now are a big issue because today, it might be this amount, and then five years later, it might be another $100,000,000 or more.

Real gondola situation right there.

Or the dock downtown.

Yeah. That is the gondola situation. But we have to make a move. Certainly, Gold Belt is taking a significant lead in in getting a project out there. We all know that housing is an issue here in this community, and we need quality land to develop for additional housing.

We know we have an opportunity to bring in the icebreaker, maybe two icebreakers. I think I read recently where the coast guard went to congress and said they're gonna have five icebreakers. So could we get one here? Could we get two here? And how do we expand?

All of these are pieces to our economic viability and survival, instead of letting our our population decline. Do we need kids back in our school? Absolutely. So we better start thinking about our future and how we're going to get there. And we think the second crossing is a significant piece of helping us develop.

I agree. And, the longer you wait, the more it costs. And you just can't sit there and think about it for twenty years. You gotta make a move. And however they rate their projects, this should be about number one.

So let's get moving. That's all we can do.

And another point, you know, you were talking about Douglas Island, and we certainly have a lot of residential activity. And we know that or the Douglas Iwix is, you know, it's it's kind of a residential road in in many respects. But a western location puts the interchange out there at 6 Mile. And so you are kind of taking away that entire length of residential road, and you're kinda jumping in just below Eagle Crest and developing the backside. So that's another argument for choosing the westernmost viable project as identified in the Pell study.

So let's skip that residential area. Let's not impact them any more than we have to. Let's go west. Let's start at six mile there. Let's use that infrastructure that was put in with a potential eye of going across having our second crossing there as Mac has mentioned several times.

And let's get this project moving. And, really, what we need to do is we need to have the city tell the the state that this is our preferred location. And first things first, through this program and other ways is starting that process of the city, I. Our assembly, can make that decision.

What can the people do? What what is this even on the city's radar right now? Like, what what what can we do to even get this bank out there again? I feel like it gets talked about then and it gets swept under the rug again. And then it comes out every so often then swept under the rug again.

I was listening to Problem Corner and, who was in here? Wade. And he must have picked a piece of paper up off the desk over here saying that we were gonna do this podcast. And that kinda started a little conversation, but that was about it. And I don't know how to approach those people downtown to really get off it and go.

I mean, to me, it's just a matter of sitting down saying, go. Saying to the state, let's go. There's our that's it. Here's what we wanna do and there's the spot. So let's get going.

You know what I mean? And it's

just Well, this creates part of the buzz, and I agree with Mac. And so it's time to make that decision. One of the things, you know, any community member can certainly write an email to every assembly member, and it's it's one click, one email box, and it hits them all. And perhaps if they hear enough of us saying, let's let's pick that site. Let's pick a western site, in fact.

Let's let's pick the Sunny Point West or any one of those. Then we have community input, and we begin to bring a build that momentum to get the assembly to pull that yes lever and say, this is our project. And then they send that to the state. The state begins their NEPA process because now the city has done their piece, and they picked the location. And then we go back into that more formal environmental study, make sure that that what we do, saves our fish because we know that's an important habitat area out there and we wanna do it right.

I think it blows me away that we're just sitting here waiting for that. When you put it like that and we're just waiting on a location in the city to act, it kinda just goes, all right. Can just shake your head at it.

Yeah. They could have acted a long time ago.

Here we are doing a podcast about it.

They move slowly. You know, and I I don't it could be inexperienced. Could be because they wanna play politics for longer and get still get elected. So I really don't know. It's like if it was me, it'd be go time.

And, hopefully, someday, we'll

Here's a request for any one of our assembly members through this podcast. We ask for a a motion or an ordinance to pick the West Juneau excuse me, Sunny Point West location and, pass that ordinance. So let's get that ordinance done and let's get it moving.

Well, and let's welcome any assembly members that actually hear this to come on and talk about this. Like you said, you guys invited what, three different entities onto this show to talk about this subject and nobody's here.

No. Oh, uh-uh. I get Well, we're not

really Somebody's here. First things first is here.

Exactly. First things first showed up.

We're not toxic, you know.

Guys, I wanna thank you so much. We're gonna wrap this up. I think we really unpack this and hopefully reach out to your assembly. Tell them to pick a location. Western location obviously mitigates safety risk if you were listening to the podcast or do research on your own.

That's what it's all about. That's what first things first is all about. That's what this podcast is all about. If you like what you hear and you wanna get involved with first things first, I gotta throw it over to Don Habiger, your executive director. Don, how do people get involved?

How do people help get their voice heard through First Things First?

Absolutely. The easiest way is our website and it is f t f a k the word foundation dot org. And we certainly have a message board. And so go to the bottom of the our opening page, find our messaging link, and send us an email. Or if you wanna send an an email directly, it is the word first, t f I n c, Inc.

So FirstThingsFirstInc@Gmail.com. And we're happy to engage. We answer all our emails, by the way.

And you can check out any episode we have done. We've been doing this over a year now tackling all of the Juno issues out there and more that First Things First likes to handle. You can check that out over at kinyradio.com or the First Things First website as well. Mac, you're cracking up over there. You wanna say a parting parting words as we get out of here?

Let's move on.

There we go.

Mac Miner's board director, First Things First Foundation. Don Habiger, executive director, First Things First. And I am Dan O. Thank you so much for tuning in. Stay informed.

Get involved. Check out First Things First.

Thank you.

Thank you.