Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast. Brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Krysia: Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology podcast. I'm Krysia, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

If you'd like to access the transcript of this episode, it can be found by the link in show notes today on CATChat ian and I are gonna have a, I'd say a semi topical discussion actually, because obviously we have a, a conference coming up at CAT in the next couple of weeks and about how we share our research and things we do more generally.

Outside of research and basically share them so that they, it's accessible. Accessible by lots of different people. So I guess, Ian, what kind of things have you done in the past that you've found work and that have been quite good in. 

Ian: Um, yeah. So a couple of things that I have done, um, that have seemed somewhat effective.

I was, uh, I, I guess last year, almost a year ago now, I was, um, part of a webinar, uh, the Church for Everyone series that Stuart Rapley, who is a, um, member of the CAT Group, um, invited me to be a part of. And, uh, I felt wildly. Underqualified considering who else was a part of it, um, because, uh, John Bayer was there.

Um, Joanna Leidenhag

I felt wildly underqualified because of who else was a part of it. Um, but, but my piece of that was really talking about, um, the, the, the webinar was on the image of God and autistic people.

Right. Um, and so what I was talking about was practical applications. Um, and this is one of the things that I really love about being part of CAT and being part of Practical Theology at University of Aberdeen, is, is that, um, the, it seems like the animating question for practical theology is always, why does this matter?

Right? Um, and that's, I think, a really, really valuable question to answer and, and, and helps us take it from theory to Praxis. And so this is. Uh, that was an opportunity to sort of talk [00:03:00] about how can, how, if we're, if we're interested in trying to identify and see the image of God in autistic people, what does that mean for church communities and how do we actually implement that?

And that's a tough question. And what a lot of people are looking for when they ask that question is the checklist that we've talked about before. Uh, when in reality it's a much more complicated process, um, which I think is, is. It, it, it, it has its pros and cons, we'll say. Um, it would be nice if there were a checklist that would just sort of solve it for you, but unfortunately, it's a, it's, it's, it's much more involved than that, um, as it always is when you're dealing with people.

But, so that was a really effective tool. Um, I heard from a number of people who said that was really helpful for thinking about some of the things that could be done, um, to incorporate autistic people into, into worshiping communities. Um. Another thing that I've also done recently, and this is really sort of precipitated by current events, um, was I wrote an article for Sojourners, which is a, um, a sort of, um, social justice oriented Christian magazine, um, that, that, uh, deals with, with sort of social justice in the world.

How do we, how do we live out our faith? In a faithful way, in a, in a, in a, um, justice oriented way. And that was precipitated by, um, comments that RFK Junior made in the US about what it means to be autistic. His, his talking about, you know, autistic people will never, uh, play baseball or never do this, never do that.

And just the, the, the alarming, um. Debasement of autistic people that was lying behind his commentary on it. And I, I, I, you know, there are people who consider that overtly political. I think that if we're not willing to stand up for the dignity of human beings. Then I don't know what we're doing as a church.

Right. And I think that goes for whoever's in power. Um, I think that we have, if, if, if we refuse to address those issues because they might be deemed political, then we have no valuable witness to the world anymore. We're not, we're not, um, testifying to anything. So anyway, that, that was a, that was, um. Both of those were intended to be less academic and more approachable and invite a wider conversation, and I think have helped that in some regards.

Um, but it's always, it's always difficult. It's never gonna be, it's never gonna be perfect. Um, so those are two things that I've done recently. Um, what about you, Krysia? 

Krysia: We'll make sure that Ian's Sojourner piece is also in the show notes as well. And I guess one of the things I'm gonna talk about, we're also gonna put in the show notes, so, but I know we both know that a lot of [00:06:00] times we can talk about these things, but people sometimes will want kind of examples of what they might look like.

So we, we can pop them in there. You can obviously have a look if you want to find out a bit more. I guess there's a couple of things I'd like to kind of bounce off of, and I guess from being someone who's really applied in my research, it's really important that I, I can share stuff in a way that's not just for academic articles, so much like Ian.

I guess there is a practical, the within me in terms of, well, what, what, what are we doing here to make some practical change? And I guess it's also the applied sociologist within me as well, and kind of really wanting to intertwine those together. One thing I have found that what has worked quite well is kind of short videos.

So I've been co-editing a couple of books actually, with my colleague, Dr. Nathan Keiths, and although they're based around kind of. Education and learning about what it means to be neurodivergent and identity. I think there's actually an awful lot that churches could take from it and other religious and faith groups as well.

Um, 'cause they talk a lot about what it means to be autistic. A DHD, dyslexic. We have chapters where people are reflecting on what it means for them, how we can do things differently. And I think a lot of things within um. Schools particularly are sometimes quite transferable because you're looking at groups of people coming together all with different needs.

So we made, um, an I Doc website, which we'll have in the show notes, and we got all our offers to make a short video. And we were, I guess part reason we did this is because we know that, um. Pay, and neither of us are overly keen on our stuff. Being kind of hid behind people. And we know some of the people who would actually benefit best from doing really practical applied stuff on the ground don't necessarily have the institutional access, but it also allows people to either read a transcript, listen to someone talk, it's shorter, it's about three to five minutes per bit.

So if you want to kind of get up and move around or. Knit crochet have, have kind of really s mix up what you do. It allows you to be really be authentic in that space of engaging with something like that. Um, I've also like even found webinars quite useful as well to share to a really, really wide audience.

And I think that's something that CAT does really well in terms of inviting a real variety of different people with different backgrounds and um, perspectives as well. And I, I guess also it's part of our responsibility as very practical researchers be it mean we more theological or social scientists by background to be able to.

Cultivate further discussions and kind of bouncing off Ian again around this Sojourner article and we kind of, it's our responsibility to be [00:09:00] talking, almost talking back and talking to what's going on. I think that is just so important for us, especially when in the position that we are and what we're researching and what we're adding to dialogue about, particularly in the current context.

It is just our voices are just so important, especially as autistic researchers, I think. 

Ian: Yeah, I, I, you know, I, I, I think I've said something to this effect before, but it always seems like if you wait for things to sort of trickle out of the academy, it takes like 15 to 20 years Right. To reach the pop culture.

So, um, we're, the church is always that far behind the academy. So, you know, disability studies really, um. It, it really sort of reached a, a, a, a turning point in the mid nineties, and it's only now that the church is, is sort of getting on board with that. Right. And so I, I, I think. I think you're absolutely right, especially in this day and age, not just because of everything that's going on, because there are so many people who are willing to ignore the image of God and other people willing to, um, willing to sort of shove other people to the side.

Marginalize other people that we have a responsibility to do as much as we can, but also because this, the time that we're living in represents such a unique opportunity that it used to be, it was so complicated and so hard to develop a public platform. Right. Um, 20 years ago, it would've taken years and years to build a following to the point where you could actually speak out in a way that, that people would even hear ever.

Um, and now it is so easy to. Start a podcast or do a webinar or start a TikTok or something along those lines. And if you have something valuable to say or something important to say, then you can find an audience for that. And not necessarily overnight, I don't mean to make that sound easier or, or act as though people who have big TikTok followings or something like that aren't putting the work in.

But it is so much. It is so much more possible to develop that following and to propagate and, and spread a message than it was 10, 15, 20 years ago. And so we have an opportunity to really do more than we're used to as academics in terms of getting the word out about what it is that we're studying and what we're learning.

Krysia: Exactly. And I guess almost in a way that also gives us more of a, an ethical responsibility to spread. Good information to stuff that's properly robust. It's not harmful, that's not dehumanizing. So I guess it's almost a double-edged sword. It can be really good. We can get loads of followers and get our work out really quickly, but we have to do it in a way that's responsible for the people we're [00:12:00] working about and to, especially if we're doing, for example, um, autistic neurodivergent led theology, or alongside autistic and other neurodivergent people.

Who's gonna pick that information up and who's gonna go, yes, that's great. Or Hang on a minute, you didn't do any talking to people or, or something, you know? So I guess there's almost a, a responsibility in how we present our work and ourselves as well. Because effectively, and I guess this has been another change in the last 15, 20 years, is now academics are really public figures as well.

People can Google us, find our university profile. If we have a link tree, they can look at that. If we have like a blue sky account or a LinkedIn profile or anything like that, people can just have a look. And I do know academics who have made the choice not to put, other than their university profile, not put things out because they actually value their privacy.

And I completely respect that in a way. 

Ian: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's fair. I don't, I, you know, when we say responsibility, I think you're, I think you're right to a degree, although that doesn't necessarily apply to every single academic, right? Yeah. It's not a incumbent on every last academic to, to be public figures in that regard.

Yeah. But I think you're right. The, the, the truth is, and, and looking at it through an autism lens, you know, looking at it from a, from a US perspective, right? The reality is. We have so many people propagating misinformation or shoddy studies or, or slanted or biased studies that have to do with autism. 90% of the funding goes towards, I, I, I don't think this is true anymore, but it used to be very true that, that the overwhelming majority of autism research funding went towards studying cause, um, rather than quality of life.

Right? Yeah. And that's shifting some, but, but still, I mean, the average, I, I don't mean this to be derogatory, this is not a judgment, but the average person who is not a specialist in this area isn't attuned to how many studies are performed and what the difference between a really well designed study in our area of specialty looks like versus a really shoddy one.

And so, yes. You have, I guess that's 

Krysia: what I mean by responsibility in terms of we not going and propagating stuff that is poor quality, effectively science and philosophy. That is actually, and I think part of the reason I use the word philosophy is just 'cause, because we are dealing this idea of autism, we're automatically implicating autistic people and autistic people's, families, partners, parents.

Friends, there's a load of people that are implicated in this and because of we're doing theology churches as well.[00:15:00] 

Ian: Exactly, and you can see in the US the most recent sort of flurry of stuff around this has to do with the, the, um, discussion around Tylenol, paracetamol, right, as a quote unquote cause of autism, which is. Uh, is nonsense. If you look at the actual bulk of scientific studies, there's one study that indicates a correlation, um, that probably had a conflict of interest and the vast majority of all the other studies sort of undermine that one study right there.

Also, the announcement was also about the possibility of Luca vRAN, which is a, um. Uh, folinic acid, right? Um, which, which is helpful for certain autistics who have a co-occurring condition that involves, that involves a, a, essentially a vitamin deficiency, right? So there, it, it's not, it's not wrong necessarily.

There is some promise to that for some autistic people who have. A, a co-occurring condition that that enables or that that does not enable them to, to, uh, incorporate that particular vitamin as well as, as, as, as well as is necessary for proper functioning. Right? So. There's a kernel of truth there, but it's being proposed as though this is a quote unquote, cure for autism, which is utter nonsense even if you read the studies that the, that they're speaking based off of.

But you have to know how to read that study. You have to understand autism research. You have to be, you have to be sort of in it to be able to discern is this, is this accurate? And so. Um, researchers in this field. I, I mean, I'm not a scientist. I'm not a, I I I'm not conducting research. Um, that's, that's, that's around Luca vRAN, and yet I'm immersed in this world enough that I can say, actually this is, this is, this isn't saying what you're saying.

It's saying, right. This doesn't demonstrate what you say it demonstrates so. Yeah, I mean it, with so much misinformation out there with so many people desperate to latch onto anything, you know, we, we just have to be willing to say. Let's tap the brakes, right? Let's figure out whether this is actually saying what we think.

It's saying. Let's make sure that we can actually replicate this research because how many times throughout history have we seen experiments that seemed promising and then, and then could never be replicated, right? 

Krysia: Yeah. And I guess that kind of goes back to when we think about public engagement, why putting the almost the right information out is so.

Important because people will always use, and I guess this is where I think like algorithms come into it and [00:18:00] AI kind of people suck, can be manufactured. And this is where I guess if you want to have an online presence and be that public figure almost that that's where you kind of might say and share.

We'd be committed to sharing stuff that is humanizing and rigorous. And helps facilitate discussion to kind of increase literacy around some of the stuff that might be our bread and butter as academics. Perhaps your average Joe box on the street wouldn't necessarily be able to pay to access or would have lots of technical language in it, especially with some different types of academic research.

It can be really, really technical and you have to have quite a bit. If you are looking at specific genomes or really kind niche things to help you really kind of unpick what's going on.

Ian: And so that, that talk about responsibility, I think I keep coming back to because I do agree with that. Right? And, and, and it's part of what has, um, if I'm honest, I am not comfortable being a public figure. I don't really want to be one. I'm not interested in, in, in.

In furthering myself or, or sort of self-aggrandizement or anything like that. And sometimes there's a tendency to, to view it as that, right? Um, but I have pushed myself to be more vocal, um, when I see that kind of mis misinformation. And it's because if I'm not willing to share from my experience why this is incorrect and who's going to right.

Um, and I can't speak to everything. That goes on in the entire world. But I know this area, um, to an extent. And so I, I, I think it's worth sharing what I can, so I'm not trying to lift myself up as an example, like look at how great I am, but it, but, but my discomfort, like if you see me opining on this publicly, it's not because I'm super comfortable doing so.

Right. It's just because I think we need to do it. 

Krysia: Yeah. And I guess it almost opens the fact that not everybody will be comfortable doing that and people will have their own. Kind of positions on it. Some people will be accidentally quite public, some people will try to be public. And I guess all I would, I'd say all types of public engagement is good because you can do public engagement and be working with people and being, you know, that's much more structured and that's less exposed, and that's still really, really, really valuable.

Things like webinars. Prerecorded things or blogs, magazine articles, you can still have that exposure without necessarily being that TikTok LinkedIn person. And I guess my take is whatever we do, there's a certain amount of responsibility because in autism world that that is what we have. We working kind of with autistic people, but it's [00:21:00] very much a personal choice as to how, what bits.

You want to almost divulge and share, especially when we think around, not some people, some academics might know they're autistic but not disclosed because they've been diagnosed later in life or been identified later in life. So there's all sorts of nuances and entangles that I don't think Ian and I could probably unpick within a, within a short catch episode.

But I think just from our reflections today, I think it just shows how important. Sharing our research in other ways other than your traditional monograph or the core paper is important to have that difference in that variety and be able to have it in lots of different ways that aren't that normal.

The average Joe blogs on the street could access and enjoy if they wanted to. 

Ian: Yeah. And I, I, the other, the last thing I wanna highlight, I guess is, is that there are, there are different levels or tiers of public engagement, right? Um, I don't mean to suggest that every public, every academic needs to be a public academic or, or that they need to have a million followers on, on social media platform of your choice.

So, you know, anything that you can do. Um, that engages with your research and raises, understanding is a net positive. Right. So I, one of the things that I didn't talk about is just the, the conversations that I've had with members of my parish about. Disability, theology and around autism. Right? Um, and so that I think is a net positive.

There are, there are people in my church, which is admittedly not a massive church, who have a, a, a greater understanding of autism and what autism means and how to incorporate, uh, a, a holistic understanding of autistic people into our theology then existed prior to me being in my parish and talking about it.

Right? So. Even if you just belong to a community, even if you're just able to go to a, I don't, in the UI don't know if in the UK they have the same organizations. I'm sure they're not the, not the same. But we have like Lions Club or Rotary Club, which are organizations, social organizations. Okay. Um, I know I actually, I know Rotary is international.

I didn't know about Lions Club for sure. But, um, but so even going to an organization like that and just. Um, talking about your research or talking about, um, autism in a way that increases people's understanding. Like look at how far we have come from the time when everyone thought autism meant, um, elephant man.

Right. Um, we, we've, we've come a long way, but we still have a long way to go. So anything that we can do, even if it's engaging with. 10 or 12 people is a, is a positive and is public [00:24:00] engagement. So it's not that you have to go and write something that's gonna be, um, in op-ed in the New York Times. It's not that you have to build a massive social media following, but any way of, of sort of lending your expertise, making your expertise available even to a small group of people is, is wonderful, is necessary.

Krysia: So it's almost like, uh, I guess almost see this a bit like the neurodiversity paradigm. All forms of public engagement are equally valued and are equally great as long as they're almost responsible and doing the good cause. Um, yeah, that's kind of where I'd, I think it might be a good place also to end, because I think Ian and I could chat about this for hours, but then we would have a very long episode.

So thank you listeners for joining us for this episode. If you have any questions, you can message us on at autism Theology on Bluesky or Instagram, or you can send us an email at cat@abdn.ac.uk, even if it's just to say hi. We'd love to hear from you.

Zoe: Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just wanna say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.