WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:04.040 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.680 have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they 00:00:09.680 --> 00:00:13.888 got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. 00:00:14.032 --> 00:00:18.839 How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, 00:00:19.169 --> 00:00:21.689 and most importantly, find joy. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.259 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:24.373 --> 00:00:27.463 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:31.456 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:31.456 --> 00:00:37.146 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:37.196 --> 00:00:42.746 Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free, where we talk to people who are living 00:00:42.836 --> 00:00:47.406 and have lived and still are living and will keep living self actualized lives. 00:00:47.416 --> 00:00:48.196 What does that mean? 00:00:48.436 --> 00:00:50.876 Lives where they are living. 00:00:51.336 --> 00:00:53.696 on their own terms, through their own interests, through their 00:00:53.696 --> 00:00:57.326 imaginations what we would really call the definition of success. 00:00:57.326 --> 00:00:58.656 It has nothing to do with money. 00:00:58.946 --> 00:01:00.346 It has nothing to do with fame. 00:01:00.636 --> 00:01:03.956 Some of the people that we are interviewing are public figures. 00:01:03.986 --> 00:01:06.076 Some of them are people you've never heard of. 00:01:06.346 --> 00:01:11.356 Some of them are people who are at home looking after elderly parents. 00:01:11.516 --> 00:01:15.816 Some of them are people who are changing the world very publicly in different ways. 00:01:16.386 --> 00:01:19.026 It doesn't matter how you do it. 00:01:19.076 --> 00:01:24.296 What matters is, are you living on your own terms, or do you want to? 00:01:24.866 --> 00:01:29.616 And of course, would you like to be mentored because This is always helpful. 00:01:29.866 --> 00:01:31.976 So I've got a great mentor on this week. 00:01:31.986 --> 00:01:33.426 This is Diana Elbaum. 00:01:33.466 --> 00:01:34.156 She's amazing. 00:01:34.546 --> 00:01:36.046 She's an independent film producer. 00:01:36.046 --> 00:01:38.516 She's based in Belgium, but she works all over the world. 00:01:38.746 --> 00:01:40.026 She's done all sorts of things. 00:01:40.306 --> 00:01:42.776 And those of you who've always thought, Oh yeah, I'd quite like to make a 00:01:42.776 --> 00:01:46.391 movie, you know, I'd quite like to be a independent, you know, film. 00:01:46.831 --> 00:01:47.061 person. 00:01:47.061 --> 00:01:48.451 I can make a documentary. 00:01:48.641 --> 00:01:52.451 Well, she's the person who has sort of done that and has done that in a 00:01:52.761 --> 00:01:54.831 very quiet but very effective way. 00:01:54.931 --> 00:01:57.571 She wouldn't be, most producers are people you haven't heard of. 00:01:57.581 --> 00:02:00.561 You hear about directors, you hear about actors, but you don't 00:02:00.561 --> 00:02:02.801 hear about producers, and you don't hear about screenwriters. 00:02:03.081 --> 00:02:06.461 But they are the people who actually get films done and made. 00:02:06.781 --> 00:02:09.581 And the reason why you don't hear about them is because that's how they like it. 00:02:09.871 --> 00:02:11.701 They want to be the people behind the scenes. 00:02:11.701 --> 00:02:17.011 They want to be what you call in French, the Eminence Grise, which was the, the 00:02:17.011 --> 00:02:21.291 name for the Cardinal Richelieu, who was the power behind the throne of Louis XIII. 00:02:21.491 --> 00:02:25.301 They want the director and the actors to be out front. 00:02:25.481 --> 00:02:27.791 Meanwhile, they, they are always not only. 00:02:28.331 --> 00:02:33.091 Brewing up the witch's potion of the film that you're seeing now, but they're 00:02:33.101 --> 00:02:39.721 usually working on about 10 different ones and They often are working on things 00:02:39.721 --> 00:02:44.451 that you don't even know that they were working on Music producers are like this 00:02:44.451 --> 00:02:48.701 too So if you really read the sleeve notes of an album, you might say oh my gosh 00:02:48.931 --> 00:02:52.481 This person pops up here and here and here and here and here across all these 00:02:52.481 --> 00:02:56.441 different genres It's a little bit the same and Diana is one of these people. 00:02:56.651 --> 00:02:58.836 So We're going to ask her how it's done. 00:02:58.836 --> 00:03:01.556 We're going to ask her how she got there, but more than that, we're going 00:03:01.556 --> 00:03:06.686 to ask her why this work is, is so fulfilling and what can we learn from it? 00:03:06.716 --> 00:03:10.316 So Diana, thank you so much for coming on. 00:03:10.806 --> 00:03:11.376 Who are you? 00:03:12.436 --> 00:03:14.146 Diana Elbaum: Oh, thanks Rupert. 00:03:14.656 --> 00:03:16.766 I don't know if I can live up to what you just said. 00:03:17.346 --> 00:03:19.296 So yeah, I'm Diana. 00:03:19.356 --> 00:03:23.156 I'm based in Belgium, born in Belgium, lived 00:03:26.426 --> 00:03:26.946 in the U. 00:03:26.946 --> 00:03:27.236 S. 00:03:27.236 --> 00:03:30.276 for a long time, lived in the Middle East for a long time. 00:03:31.086 --> 00:03:40.536 I think from the get go I'm a person who's always been really 00:03:40.726 --> 00:03:42.756 fascinated by storytelling. 00:03:43.746 --> 00:03:50.256 And I can remember for a long, long time when I was a teenage and I was totally 00:03:50.256 --> 00:03:56.096 a bookworm and by the chance, by the chance of meeting a great teacher in 00:03:56.096 --> 00:04:04.176 high school, she opened up the door to an amazing, um, storytelling world. 00:04:04.786 --> 00:04:09.986 Starting with, believe it or not, Dutch literature, and then moving on 00:04:09.986 --> 00:04:17.386 to American literature with the like of Faulkner, who then led me on to the magic 00:04:17.386 --> 00:04:19.366 realism of South American literature. 00:04:20.126 --> 00:04:26.916 And I think it opened in me as a teenager, a vision of a world so 00:04:26.916 --> 00:04:28.346 much bigger than I thought it was. 00:04:29.091 --> 00:04:36.511 And also it also open capacity of touch me emotionally, I was quite lonely. 00:04:36.731 --> 00:04:42.071 I was a very not reserved because I'm not, but I was a loner and 00:04:42.071 --> 00:04:44.421 I'm still am, but those spaces. 00:04:45.331 --> 00:04:50.291 That a book allows you and then after that, of course, that films allows you for 00:04:50.301 --> 00:04:56.361 me, I think it was always a trigger into what's so amazing about the connection 00:04:56.361 --> 00:05:02.721 we have with stories and how much it's needed for connecting for a stranger 00:05:02.721 --> 00:05:05.811 in an airport, in a train a friend. 00:05:06.296 --> 00:05:08.426 Or and I think that was my connection. 00:05:09.276 --> 00:05:13.756 And the first start and who I am really started, I mean, there is a lot of other 00:05:13.756 --> 00:05:19.166 things about me, but I think in regarding what I am today, I think as far as I 00:05:19.186 --> 00:05:24.486 can remember where those this curiosity, it triggered in me into the others. 00:05:25.886 --> 00:05:29.336 So literature was really my the door that opened my life. 00:05:30.621 --> 00:05:34.581 And and then I went on to study literature, South American 00:05:34.591 --> 00:05:36.381 literature, more precisely. 00:05:36.781 --> 00:05:39.371 And then of course, when I came out of school was the 00:05:39.371 --> 00:05:41.011 question, so what do I do now? 00:05:41.381 --> 00:05:48.051 And then that's yet another story, but which I will tell, but I think 00:05:48.071 --> 00:05:53.511 it also triggers something even deeper than just reach out to emotion 00:05:54.121 --> 00:05:57.331 and the capacity to travel within. 00:05:58.276 --> 00:05:59.796 Somebody's writing. 00:05:59.826 --> 00:06:02.116 It was also a huge curiosity. 00:06:02.116 --> 00:06:02.826 I didn't have. 00:06:02.926 --> 00:06:04.236 I didn't know I have. 00:06:04.236 --> 00:06:04.866 I had. 00:06:05.186 --> 00:06:06.016 I still have. 00:06:06.706 --> 00:06:08.776 So that's the second element about me. 00:06:08.776 --> 00:06:12.016 I'm extremely curious and very versatile. 00:06:12.856 --> 00:06:16.356 I'm absolutely not one street of I like only this or that. 00:06:16.876 --> 00:06:23.256 Every, everything that I read or see or people that I meet immediately 00:06:23.256 --> 00:06:25.336 trigger in me zillion of questions. 00:06:25.336 --> 00:06:28.196 It's quite unbearable, actually, but that's the way it is. 00:06:28.696 --> 00:06:37.696 So, and then, uh, when I was thinking about what I was going to do to to make 00:06:37.696 --> 00:06:46.391 money after university, It just so happened that the advantage of going 00:06:46.391 --> 00:06:51.201 into South American literature is that I came out at 24 from university 00:06:51.201 --> 00:06:53.581 with a, a baggage in languages. 00:06:54.171 --> 00:06:58.071 You know, Spanish, and of course my native language is French. 00:06:58.281 --> 00:06:59.361 I studied in the U. 00:06:59.361 --> 00:07:02.101 S., so English was an asset. 00:07:02.141 --> 00:07:04.641 And I also speak from home. 00:07:04.671 --> 00:07:08.811 I speak Hebrew and there were other languages spoken around me. 00:07:09.151 --> 00:07:15.331 And I think the capacity of speaking those languages is also something 00:07:15.341 --> 00:07:20.951 that really very, very early on told me that there was no border. 00:07:21.411 --> 00:07:22.831 So I could go wherever I wanted. 00:07:23.541 --> 00:07:31.021 So after leaving New York, I went to Israel and of course, there's very little 00:07:31.021 --> 00:07:35.541 work in South American literature in Israel, but then by the chance encounter 00:07:35.541 --> 00:07:39.541 of some friends in the bar, somebody told me, Oh, you speak all those languages. 00:07:39.551 --> 00:07:43.721 You know, there's this film that's coming and, you know, they need 00:07:43.791 --> 00:07:47.221 kind of people who speak languages, French production, and they are 00:07:47.221 --> 00:07:49.041 looking for a production assistant. 00:07:49.181 --> 00:07:51.031 I had no idea what film was. 00:07:51.776 --> 00:07:54.916 I had no idea what it was all about, but I knew there was a 00:07:54.916 --> 00:07:55.976 check at the end of the day. 00:07:55.976 --> 00:07:59.066 So, you know, it's better than a lot of other jobs. 00:07:59.066 --> 00:08:05.956 So I went and I discovered a world that I literally fell in love with, which is 00:08:05.976 --> 00:08:12.936 the set and the set had this energy of a whole unit working towards a vision. 00:08:13.461 --> 00:08:18.861 I don't have exactly the same feeling about it today, but at the time was 00:08:18.881 --> 00:08:23.131 this collective effort to create something and something that is not 00:08:23.151 --> 00:08:25.001 what I read because it became a film. 00:08:25.621 --> 00:08:28.521 And I found that energy totally incredible. 00:08:28.551 --> 00:08:30.761 And from there on, I was hooked. 00:08:31.421 --> 00:08:35.001 So I've been hooked now for more years than I can count. 00:08:35.801 --> 00:08:41.496 And I slowly started to move into, bigger production because that was an 00:08:41.496 --> 00:08:46.736 era in Israel between around the end of the Lebanese war in the eighties, 00:08:46.776 --> 00:08:51.366 where the weirdly the Lloyd insurance was insurance production coming to 00:08:51.376 --> 00:08:53.366 Israel, which is stopped afterwards. 00:08:53.656 --> 00:08:55.686 But I mean, all the American production came. 00:08:56.476 --> 00:09:01.806 So back to back, I did like 10 production and of course there were crews coming 00:09:01.806 --> 00:09:06.886 from all over the world coming to shoot, whether they were the stuntmen, horse 00:09:06.936 --> 00:09:12.841 stuntmen from Spain or the American actors or French crews or whatever. 00:09:13.081 --> 00:09:13.591 Name it. 00:09:14.131 --> 00:09:18.861 And the languages was always what allowed me to keep on working in the job. 00:09:18.861 --> 00:09:22.221 I don't think I was really good, but at least I spoke languages 00:09:22.241 --> 00:09:23.591 that a lot of people didn't. 00:09:24.191 --> 00:09:31.716 So it really triggered more work for me and more curiosity about what is it to. 00:09:32.256 --> 00:09:36.606 Put a film together, but of course at that time was only I was, you 00:09:36.606 --> 00:09:38.026 know, a little mouse on the set. 00:09:38.656 --> 00:09:44.806 So, you know, I started from being the the person that was distributing water 00:09:44.816 --> 00:09:49.146 because that was something that we needed to do for the insurance and make sure 00:09:49.146 --> 00:09:50.986 that people wouldn't go dehydrated. 00:09:51.366 --> 00:09:54.876 But that allowed me to go from department to department and actually speak with the 00:09:54.876 --> 00:09:56.546 people and learn what they were doing. 00:09:57.066 --> 00:09:59.986 I was never interested in anything else in production. 00:09:59.986 --> 00:10:01.296 I have to say though. 00:10:02.031 --> 00:10:03.861 You know, the art was interesting. 00:10:03.861 --> 00:10:05.431 Wardrobe was interesting. 00:10:05.721 --> 00:10:08.221 The DP camera, all the camera was interesting. 00:10:08.491 --> 00:10:10.801 It feels like so much out of my reach. 00:10:11.381 --> 00:10:13.351 And and then arrived 88. 00:10:13.601 --> 00:10:15.841 And 88 was the first Intifada in Israel. 00:10:15.851 --> 00:10:16.951 There was no more work. 00:10:17.001 --> 00:10:19.471 The situation politically was unbearable for me. 00:10:20.091 --> 00:10:21.211 And I had just 00:10:21.521 --> 00:10:23.351 Rupert Isaacson: What arrived in Israel in 88? 00:10:23.591 --> 00:10:25.031 Because a lot of listeners will not know. 00:10:25.101 --> 00:10:25.711 Tell us about it. 00:10:25.711 --> 00:10:25.781 In 00:10:25.781 --> 00:10:26.861 Diana Elbaum: Israel in 88. 00:10:26.876 --> 00:10:31.336 It started the first uprising of the Palestinian against the 00:10:31.436 --> 00:10:35.746 Israeli authorities and the occupation and everything shut down. 00:10:36.116 --> 00:10:40.416 It was almost war zone, though it wasn't really, but for the insurance, it was 00:10:40.416 --> 00:10:45.786 enough not to insure any more films, hence the it was December, I think November 00:10:45.786 --> 00:10:48.246 or December 88, everything shut down. 00:10:49.146 --> 00:10:50.536 And so I had no more work. 00:10:51.426 --> 00:10:55.956 But besides having no more work, I think I've always been linked politically 00:10:55.956 --> 00:11:03.926 and on a very wide, um, when I say politically on a very wide sense of it. 00:11:04.396 --> 00:11:05.916 One of the reasons why I left the U. 00:11:05.916 --> 00:11:06.136 S. 00:11:06.136 --> 00:11:10.426 I could have stayed after my study was because it was Grenada stories, it was 00:11:10.436 --> 00:11:15.616 Regan, there was Regan then president, and those, and, and you know, they were... 00:11:16.356 --> 00:11:21.606 so many social injustices that I can't stand. 00:11:21.676 --> 00:11:24.586 And I think that's probably another factor of the films that I've 00:11:24.586 --> 00:11:27.096 done afterwards as a producer. 00:11:27.526 --> 00:11:32.376 The notion of the I know it sounds maybe a little tacky, the notion of injustice. 00:11:32.406 --> 00:11:34.726 Maybe there's a way to repair it if I can. 00:11:35.281 --> 00:11:39.381 Which, you know, on a very small scale, but those, those, you know, when you're 00:11:39.381 --> 00:11:44.051 in those formative years of your 20 and you try to define who you are, I know 00:11:44.051 --> 00:11:47.791 that those were the triggers also for me to move from one place to the other. 00:11:48.191 --> 00:11:51.891 So I moved from the US, yes, because I could, again, as I 00:11:51.911 --> 00:11:55.611 said, I could have stayed, but the political situation was so awful. 00:11:55.681 --> 00:12:01.951 And also living in New York at the time where the homeless were just increasingly 00:12:05.831 --> 00:12:06.911 how shall I say that? 00:12:07.431 --> 00:12:10.171 I mean, if we really were to go back, I'm sorry, I'm going to 00:12:10.181 --> 00:12:11.581 backtrack a little bit on that. 00:12:11.961 --> 00:12:14.951 When I lived in the US, I lived in New York, the time Reagan 00:12:14.961 --> 00:12:17.091 arrived, he closed all the asylums. 00:12:17.261 --> 00:12:21.571 And so a lot of, a lot of people found themselves in the streets. 00:12:21.851 --> 00:12:26.041 And it was at the same time, the crazy years of the Wolf of Wall 00:12:26.071 --> 00:12:29.481 Street and the start of Wall Street, but at the same time, really on 00:12:29.481 --> 00:12:32.361 the street, it was, it was awful. 00:12:32.521 --> 00:12:33.641 It was a total despair. 00:12:33.651 --> 00:12:36.921 It was unbearable because also I felt a lack of. 00:12:37.366 --> 00:12:38.716 knowing what to do about it. 00:12:39.436 --> 00:12:41.406 So for those years I left. 00:12:42.616 --> 00:12:44.346 I didn't want, I wasn't American. 00:12:44.666 --> 00:12:46.546 I couldn't do anything more than that. 00:12:46.606 --> 00:12:51.626 So I left and then I arrived in Israel and then in 88 started in Tefada, 00:12:51.726 --> 00:12:53.296 there's nothing I could do about it. 00:12:53.336 --> 00:12:54.456 And I decided to leave. 00:12:54.466 --> 00:12:57.356 So it wasn't only because I had no more work. 00:12:57.601 --> 00:13:00.481 Because at the end of the day, you can always find work. 00:13:00.721 --> 00:13:06.301 But it was some, this, this situation was just, I couldn't figure out 00:13:06.321 --> 00:13:08.741 what to do within that realm. 00:13:08.841 --> 00:13:11.371 I couldn't, I just couldn't, I didn't know. 00:13:12.931 --> 00:13:14.521 So I, and I wasn't active. 00:13:14.571 --> 00:13:15.731 I wasn't an active. 00:13:15.926 --> 00:13:17.206 Member of any kind of party. 00:13:17.206 --> 00:13:17.986 I'm still not. 00:13:18.526 --> 00:13:22.456 But the right and wrong I had decided I couldn't live by is 00:13:22.456 --> 00:13:23.956 really what dictated my leaving. 00:13:24.516 --> 00:13:27.336 And my idea was then to go back, then it was not Reagan 00:13:27.336 --> 00:13:28.756 anymore, to go back to the U. 00:13:28.756 --> 00:13:31.866 S., but then I stopped in Belgium to say hi to my friends. 00:13:32.476 --> 00:13:35.416 I had left since high school and I got stuck here. 00:13:35.826 --> 00:13:39.366 And actually it's an okay place because, yeah, you don't have to 00:13:39.366 --> 00:13:40.796 take any political stand here. 00:13:40.796 --> 00:13:42.256 It's a weird place, Belgium. 00:13:42.716 --> 00:13:47.036 It's an amazing place for those who don't know, but I was I was immediately 00:13:47.036 --> 00:13:53.716 hired because then at that time, just pure sheer luck in 88, 89 started 00:13:53.736 --> 00:13:55.326 advertising on television here. 00:13:55.326 --> 00:13:58.836 There wasn't that before there was massive work and then 00:13:58.836 --> 00:14:00.526 nobody had work in the industry. 00:14:00.966 --> 00:14:05.496 It was very tiny, tiny industry or a few films a year and that's it. 00:14:05.496 --> 00:14:08.376 And here I arrive and I have all those connection and I'm 00:14:08.386 --> 00:14:10.116 like, yeah, I've done this. 00:14:10.116 --> 00:14:15.266 And I've, you know, kind of also being very not humble about what I had done, 00:14:15.286 --> 00:14:19.536 but also then everybody considered me as like, oh, she knows how to do it. 00:14:19.856 --> 00:14:22.186 And it was really a weird time because I was. 00:14:22.671 --> 00:14:24.791 Doing all those huge advertising. 00:14:24.841 --> 00:14:26.951 I was there were no woman around me. 00:14:27.151 --> 00:14:29.221 I had no role figure in that business. 00:14:29.861 --> 00:14:34.721 And I did an incredible advertising all over the world from Japan 00:14:34.721 --> 00:14:36.491 to Australia back to the U. 00:14:36.491 --> 00:14:36.791 S. 00:14:36.911 --> 00:14:37.701 to South Africa. 00:14:38.121 --> 00:14:39.601 And it was the time of like. 00:14:39.801 --> 00:14:46.401 Endless bounty in the industry in the advertising world till a few years 00:14:46.401 --> 00:14:54.011 later, where my kind of sense of, I don't know if you call it sense of 00:14:54.011 --> 00:15:00.801 justice, but at least sense of, of, reality or whatever hits me again, 00:15:00.851 --> 00:15:03.291 where I was, it's kind of a funny story. 00:15:03.621 --> 00:15:06.831 I was in a pre production meeting for Frozen Peas. 00:15:06.861 --> 00:15:08.031 That was a local shoot. 00:15:08.391 --> 00:15:09.281 Frozen Peas. 00:15:09.331 --> 00:15:12.891 And, and I remember the, the client, you know, those pre production is 00:15:12.891 --> 00:15:15.071 when we decide how it's going to be. 00:15:15.081 --> 00:15:18.301 The look, there is a director and the client and the agencies and 00:15:18.301 --> 00:15:23.041 the producers around the table to just really go down in detail how. 00:15:23.306 --> 00:15:26.836 The commercial is going to look like and, you know, the music 00:15:26.876 --> 00:15:27.986 that's going to be with it. 00:15:27.996 --> 00:15:34.156 And I remember spending four hours in that meeting where half of the time to decide 00:15:34.156 --> 00:15:38.846 the exact color of the actress or the model they needed to compare to the piece. 00:15:39.516 --> 00:15:43.026 And I totally broke down and I left at that point, I had 00:15:43.026 --> 00:15:44.466 done a lot of commercial. 00:15:44.486 --> 00:15:48.746 I was really high end commercial producer, or I wasn't a producer, 00:15:48.746 --> 00:15:50.136 but I was production manager. 00:15:50.631 --> 00:15:54.461 And I knew they had really little other choice on the market, but me, 00:15:54.901 --> 00:15:56.481 and I just looked at all of them. 00:15:56.481 --> 00:16:00.411 I said, do you know how many children die from hunger while 00:16:00.421 --> 00:16:02.061 we're deciding the call to dress? 00:16:02.241 --> 00:16:03.991 Because I had it, I had it. 00:16:03.991 --> 00:16:06.561 And I really hope at that time they would throw me out and 00:16:06.561 --> 00:16:07.691 say, never come back again. 00:16:07.691 --> 00:16:12.631 And, you know, here, but they kept on hiring me and I had to decide in the early 00:16:12.641 --> 00:16:18.771 nineties that if I didn't make a change in my life, then I would never get out of it. 00:16:20.311 --> 00:16:27.601 So then I started the other part of the story, but I have to say that to 00:16:27.611 --> 00:16:33.621 go back to a point you made earlier about how do you take those decisions 00:16:34.241 --> 00:16:39.011 of being able to throw tons of money away because it doesn't feel right. 00:16:39.021 --> 00:16:44.361 It takes guts, but I never, I think it doesn't, it, it takes a 00:16:44.381 --> 00:16:48.891 specific kind of people that are not afraid of what tomorrow will bring. 00:16:49.911 --> 00:16:51.991 And I've never been afraid of that. 00:16:52.281 --> 00:16:59.011 I think it's partly educational and I think it's partly being completely newly 00:16:59.251 --> 00:17:04.521 and crazy because I was never afraid not to know if I could pay my rent. 00:17:04.581 --> 00:17:06.201 I was never afraid not to know. 00:17:06.441 --> 00:17:08.121 And I had those really hard moment. 00:17:08.131 --> 00:17:09.821 I'm not to think that I didn't have them. 00:17:10.341 --> 00:17:18.481 But it wasn't That was not going to be ever that I remember some kind of break 00:17:18.531 --> 00:17:23.671 to what I wanted to do and I yet didn't know what I wanted to do, but I know and I 00:17:23.671 --> 00:17:28.751 remember and I think it's still today and I think it's not only it's still today. 00:17:28.751 --> 00:17:33.531 I think it also cost me money to have this kind of attitude of saying nobody's going 00:17:33.661 --> 00:17:35.511 to tell me what I'm going to do tomorrow. 00:17:36.521 --> 00:17:39.891 And so there is a toll for the people living around you 00:17:39.891 --> 00:17:41.841 around, but at the same time. 00:17:42.836 --> 00:17:46.596 I can today, 30 years later, or a little more than 30 years later, 00:17:46.606 --> 00:17:51.116 I can say, you know, every day I wake up, every day I, I'm saying 00:17:51.116 --> 00:17:52.776 to myself, I'm going to change job. 00:17:53.126 --> 00:17:55.966 I can't, uh, and every day I'm happy. 00:17:56.596 --> 00:18:03.996 So, you know, the counterbalance of that is that and so when I threw out 00:18:03.996 --> 00:18:09.846 the frozen peas and I had to decide what to do, they kept on calling me. 00:18:09.846 --> 00:18:13.636 So I did a few more commercial, but then I went back to literature. 00:18:13.746 --> 00:18:15.246 Literally, that's what I did. 00:18:15.486 --> 00:18:18.206 My first refused when I was a teenager came back. 00:18:18.206 --> 00:18:19.906 Another refused when I was now. 00:18:21.026 --> 00:18:21.856 Hold was it? 00:18:21.956 --> 00:18:23.376 I was like late twenties. 00:18:24.626 --> 00:18:25.506 Early 30s. 00:18:25.646 --> 00:18:29.556 And I say, well, I don't really know what I want to do. 00:18:29.556 --> 00:18:33.986 I want to stay in the environment of making storytelling, which, 00:18:34.036 --> 00:18:37.246 of course, even advertising is sometimes storytelling. 00:18:37.886 --> 00:18:39.806 And but I want to do bigger. 00:18:39.806 --> 00:18:41.226 I want to change the world. 00:18:41.871 --> 00:18:43.101 I want to save the world. 00:18:43.351 --> 00:18:48.501 I had all those like really beautiful dreams and I went back to literature and I 00:18:48.561 --> 00:18:54.041 optioned a book, which was a Swedish book by a Swedish author called Tony Lindgren. 00:18:54.661 --> 00:18:56.431 And I said, this is for me. 00:18:56.461 --> 00:19:00.201 This is a book that I need, get the rights, find a director. 00:19:00.251 --> 00:19:03.271 And then I was stuck and I was like, how do I do now? 00:19:03.771 --> 00:19:05.621 Because I don't really know how to do a feature. 00:19:05.621 --> 00:19:06.051 Right. 00:19:06.366 --> 00:19:08.356 I just know how to do commercials. 00:19:08.876 --> 00:19:13.986 And so I got training and I went to a training program that still exists today 00:19:13.986 --> 00:19:18.716 in the film world for professional called European audio visual entrepreneur. 00:19:18.906 --> 00:19:24.406 I'm training there now for the past 15 years, but it really opened my 00:19:24.446 --> 00:19:26.126 eyes to the fact that I knew nothing. 00:19:27.276 --> 00:19:32.226 So the next skill you need to learn is to make it till you believe it. 00:19:32.826 --> 00:19:37.466 And some other would say fake it till it's happening, but I really. 00:19:37.981 --> 00:19:44.531 Made it and I start to believe in it that film was never made, but it was a 00:19:44.531 --> 00:19:48.791 great learning curve because then you realize that the other things you need to 00:19:48.791 --> 00:19:53.411 do is get out of your shell and getting out of your shell is actually starting 00:19:53.411 --> 00:19:57.021 to go on market and starting to meet people and starting to talk people and 00:19:57.021 --> 00:20:00.411 not only thinking that you're going to do a story, but maybe somebody else has 00:20:00.411 --> 00:20:02.151 a great story that they want to tell. 00:20:02.741 --> 00:20:07.561 And and get to know people and then see how it works. 00:20:07.571 --> 00:20:11.111 So those years were difficult one because I wasn't making any money. 00:20:11.571 --> 00:20:16.991 But I was free as a bird and I traveled sense and sleep, 00:20:17.001 --> 00:20:18.461 but I met a lot of people. 00:20:18.481 --> 00:20:20.331 And of course, 30 years later. 00:20:20.711 --> 00:20:23.401 Those same people are the people that I'm still working with. 00:20:23.401 --> 00:20:27.591 A lot of them are still people that I'm working with because the revolution 00:20:27.601 --> 00:20:32.751 then wasn't so fast in terms of turnover of, you know, the people in 00:20:32.751 --> 00:20:35.111 the position of financing and all that. 00:20:35.111 --> 00:20:37.521 It was just lower, slower mode that today. 00:20:37.521 --> 00:20:40.081 Today you speak to one person, you're not sure they're going 00:20:40.081 --> 00:20:41.381 to be around for six months. 00:20:41.391 --> 00:20:44.121 So, but then we were all starting. 00:20:44.891 --> 00:20:46.701 I'm speaking mainly European now. 00:20:47.161 --> 00:20:52.311 I'm not, I totally abandoned the idea of, there was a half a second where 00:20:52.311 --> 00:20:55.221 I thought, well, maybe I'll go to Los Angeles and it's going to be easier. 00:20:55.251 --> 00:20:57.391 I abandoned that very, very fast. 00:20:57.891 --> 00:21:00.511 I really liked European freedom actually. 00:21:00.761 --> 00:21:03.981 And the fact that it wasn't entirely driven by a market. 00:21:05.026 --> 00:21:11.086 So it's and that, that allowed me to really dream, actually. 00:21:12.696 --> 00:21:20.226 And then came 1994, and was my first Cannes, and it was a film festival. 00:21:20.596 --> 00:21:21.456 Can film festival. 00:21:21.456 --> 00:21:21.786 Yeah, 00:21:22.086 --> 00:21:22.916 Rupert Isaacson: I knew what you had. 00:21:23.316 --> 00:21:24.036 You had a film. 00:21:24.036 --> 00:21:24.546 You had made 00:21:24.976 --> 00:21:25.526 Diana Elbaum: nothing. 00:21:25.726 --> 00:21:26.526 I came there. 00:21:27.166 --> 00:21:27.446 Yeah. 00:21:27.446 --> 00:21:29.296 No, I didn't have a film. 00:21:29.446 --> 00:21:32.086 I still was trying to figure out how to make it. 00:21:32.456 --> 00:21:36.256 But I had a dear friend in Israel was a distributor and she called me and she 00:21:36.256 --> 00:21:38.066 say, you know, you should come to can. 00:21:38.686 --> 00:21:41.006 I'll introduce you to all those people. 00:21:41.196 --> 00:21:44.556 You can sleep in my room as maybe your listener don't know. 00:21:44.626 --> 00:21:48.186 Cannes is the most expensive place to go during the film festival. 00:21:48.186 --> 00:21:51.836 I would not advise because it's extremely expensive. 00:21:52.246 --> 00:21:54.356 So, you know, having the invitation, I say, okay, I 00:21:54.356 --> 00:21:56.006 need only to pay for my train. 00:21:56.026 --> 00:21:56.976 That's going to be fine. 00:21:56.976 --> 00:21:57.326 You know? 00:21:57.326 --> 00:21:59.226 And, and so I did. 00:21:59.896 --> 00:22:00.616 Full of hopes. 00:22:01.411 --> 00:22:05.641 And I think after maybe six hours there, I was like trying in the 00:22:05.651 --> 00:22:09.161 bathroom of the most prestigious, you know, hotel in the world, like 00:22:09.161 --> 00:22:12.021 the Majestic, because I couldn't figure out what people were doing. 00:22:13.051 --> 00:22:15.101 And unfortunately, this friend... 00:22:16.271 --> 00:22:20.441 Was a trigger for something else because she saw me like, literally, 00:22:20.441 --> 00:22:22.591 I was drinking and crying. 00:22:22.601 --> 00:22:25.131 That's basically because of, you know, I went to all those 00:22:25.151 --> 00:22:26.951 parties, all the drinks were free. 00:22:26.991 --> 00:22:31.231 I didn't know that many people, though I had met people, but not yet to the massive 00:22:31.711 --> 00:22:33.801 amount of people that are in Cannes. 00:22:34.201 --> 00:22:37.451 And I was like, well, we're all trying to do the same thing, sell 00:22:37.451 --> 00:22:38.851 our little stories and all that. 00:22:38.851 --> 00:22:39.811 I'm never going to make it. 00:22:40.346 --> 00:22:44.166 That was really a done moment for me, but I was happily drinking for 00:22:44.166 --> 00:22:49.076 free and I was happily, you know, crying in really beautiful bathrooms. 00:22:49.536 --> 00:22:53.736 But anyway, and she took me and then she saw me really desperate on day 00:22:53.736 --> 00:22:55.186 two and she took me by the hand. 00:22:55.186 --> 00:22:58.686 And the advantage of speaking Hebrew is that a lot of people do speak Hebrew. 00:22:59.086 --> 00:23:02.836 So she literally in the majestic took me from table to table where 00:23:02.836 --> 00:23:06.306 all the executive Americans and Europeans were like doing deals. 00:23:06.826 --> 00:23:11.436 You know, this like, like really, it's, it's almost a cliche, right? 00:23:11.476 --> 00:23:13.396 Mainly men, of course. 00:23:13.706 --> 00:23:17.846 And she was, so she took me from table to table and she told me, you know, the only 00:23:17.846 --> 00:23:20.376 thing everybody does here is sell dreams. 00:23:22.106 --> 00:23:23.666 You can sell dreams as well. 00:23:24.436 --> 00:23:27.826 And what she meant by that is two way things. 00:23:28.266 --> 00:23:30.406 Two way, two way to look at it. 00:23:31.006 --> 00:23:34.486 We do sell dream because what we do is we have a written document 00:23:34.486 --> 00:23:35.716 and we're making into films. 00:23:35.796 --> 00:23:38.756 It's prototype So prototype is deals. 00:23:38.836 --> 00:23:40.436 It's a dream in itself. 00:23:41.436 --> 00:23:48.926 And What's not a prototype is a remake Every film is a prototype because it 00:23:48.936 --> 00:23:53.836 starts on paper if it's got the chance to find the financing it needs Then 00:23:53.836 --> 00:23:57.756 it becomes a film so, you know And 00:23:57.756 --> 00:24:00.326 Rupert Isaacson: at this first can were you did you have a story 00:24:00.326 --> 00:24:03.376 you were trying to get made or you were still I was the same Story 00:24:03.566 --> 00:24:04.096 Diana Elbaum: where am I? 00:24:05.406 --> 00:24:05.836 Yeah. 00:24:05.906 --> 00:24:06.856 It was the same story. 00:24:06.856 --> 00:24:09.206 And I would receive answers from sales agents. 00:24:09.266 --> 00:24:11.396 It was the Swedish story. 00:24:11.726 --> 00:24:12.066 Yeah. 00:24:12.066 --> 00:24:12.846 The Swedish story. 00:24:12.846 --> 00:24:15.336 And it was like, you know, yeah. 00:24:15.346 --> 00:24:16.396 How many films have you made? 00:24:16.396 --> 00:24:17.976 Well, I've made only advertising. 00:24:17.986 --> 00:24:18.776 Who's your director? 00:24:18.776 --> 00:24:20.256 Oh, he's a first time director. 00:24:20.256 --> 00:24:22.956 He did a really successful short, which wasn't true. 00:24:23.446 --> 00:24:24.816 And who are your actors? 00:24:24.816 --> 00:24:25.896 Well, we casting. 00:24:25.896 --> 00:24:28.566 And of course I was like name dropping like crazy. 00:24:28.876 --> 00:24:31.676 And people would look at me and say, first film director, 00:24:31.686 --> 00:24:33.076 first film for the producer. 00:24:33.076 --> 00:24:33.436 No way. 00:24:33.436 --> 00:24:34.606 How are we going to finance that? 00:24:35.471 --> 00:24:35.711 What 00:24:35.711 --> 00:24:37.471 Rupert Isaacson: was the book, by the way, that you were trying to get 00:24:37.471 --> 00:24:37.641 Diana Elbaum: made? 00:24:37.641 --> 00:24:40.981 It's called, oh, good question, Twenty Lindgren. 00:24:40.991 --> 00:24:42.111 I have to go on Google. 00:24:42.131 --> 00:24:45.651 It's oh my god, Robert, I just forgot. 00:24:45.811 --> 00:24:46.691 And I love the book. 00:24:47.201 --> 00:24:47.611 But... 00:24:48.501 --> 00:24:50.561 What was it about the book that grabbed you? 00:24:50.561 --> 00:24:52.301 It was something about a fake... 00:24:52.716 --> 00:24:59.676 It was something about a fake painter and a young singer and how her family, he 00:24:59.676 --> 00:25:05.746 was totally in love, like teens, he was totally in love with her and always wanted 00:25:05.746 --> 00:25:09.606 to impress, but her family decided she was going to be the next big thing in music. 00:25:10.246 --> 00:25:18.236 And so he was never considered as a, the real pretender for her, for her love. 00:25:18.836 --> 00:25:20.796 Rupert Isaacson: Tell me, tell me the name of the author again. 00:25:20.886 --> 00:25:21.246 I'm going to. 00:25:22.756 --> 00:25:26.176 Diana Elbaum: Lin Tony, N-G-R-E-N, 00:25:26.666 --> 00:25:27.686 Rupert Isaacson: Tony Lin 00:25:28.406 --> 00:25:30.436 Diana Elbaum: Gren, I think it was called in French. 00:25:38.921 --> 00:25:40.391 I can't, I can Google it, but 00:25:40.601 --> 00:25:41.141 Rupert Isaacson: I can't. 00:25:45.366 --> 00:25:45.656 Okay. 00:25:45.661 --> 00:25:46.151 I'm just gonna 00:25:49.381 --> 00:25:53.251 it looks like there aren't many great matches for your search . Oh my God. 00:25:53.351 --> 00:25:53.641 Tony. 00:25:53.866 --> 00:25:54.346 Tony. 00:25:54.346 --> 00:25:55.516 That's the story of my life. 00:25:55.786 --> 00:25:56.476 Did you say Tony 00:25:56.806 --> 00:25:56.986 Diana Elbaum: Ren? 00:25:57.316 --> 00:25:57.826 Thorny. 00:25:57.826 --> 00:26:00.106 It's T-O-R-J-N-Y. 00:26:00.286 --> 00:26:00.646 Rupert Isaacson: Oh oh. 00:26:00.646 --> 00:26:02.176 That would be YT Sorry. 00:26:02.206 --> 00:26:02.681 Let, let 00:26:03.416 --> 00:26:05.936 Diana Elbaum: T-O-R-T-O. 00:26:10.226 --> 00:26:11.266 J N Y. 00:26:11.706 --> 00:26:13.046 Rupert Isaacson: J N Y. 00:26:13.086 --> 00:26:13.566 Tony. 00:26:13.566 --> 00:26:16.486 Yeah, that's not a name that an English speaker 00:26:16.486 --> 00:26:16.516 Diana Elbaum: would... 00:26:16.516 --> 00:26:17.306 Lindgren. 00:26:17.396 --> 00:26:20.336 L I N D J R E N. 00:26:20.786 --> 00:26:21.456 Lindgren. 00:26:22.226 --> 00:26:23.766 He passed a few years ago. 00:26:24.036 --> 00:26:24.516 J 00:26:24.546 --> 00:26:25.256 Rupert Isaacson: R E N. 00:26:25.576 --> 00:26:26.616 Not G R E N. 00:26:26.726 --> 00:26:27.556 Diana Elbaum: Oh, J R E N. 00:26:28.206 --> 00:26:28.716 J R 00:26:28.726 --> 00:26:29.016 Rupert Isaacson: E N. 00:26:29.441 --> 00:26:31.781 Well, I've got him. 00:26:32.471 --> 00:26:33.621 Tony Lindgren. 00:26:34.261 --> 00:26:37.131 And you say 00:26:37.141 --> 00:26:40.871 Diana Elbaum: that his, I can't remember the title in English. 00:26:42.141 --> 00:26:43.291 Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay. 00:26:43.371 --> 00:26:48.131 I'm seeing the way of the serpent pulse and sweetness. 00:26:48.131 --> 00:26:58.391 But I thought it was polar, but Shaba Shaba is a great writer, by the way. 00:26:58.471 --> 00:27:00.021 Well, thanks for turning me on to him. 00:27:00.021 --> 00:27:02.581 How did you, how did you discover him out of interest? 00:27:05.566 --> 00:27:06.436 Diana Elbaum: No, you can kill me. 00:27:06.436 --> 00:27:07.576 I will never remember. 00:27:07.696 --> 00:27:08.566 I can't remember. 00:27:09.076 --> 00:27:09.106 Okay. 00:27:09.106 --> 00:27:10.036 It's one of those things. 00:27:10.041 --> 00:27:13.606 I love secondhand bookstores, so I think I just picked it up. 00:27:13.986 --> 00:27:15.216 Maybe I love the cover. 00:27:15.246 --> 00:27:15.786 I don't know. 00:27:15.936 --> 00:27:16.326 You know? 00:27:16.356 --> 00:27:18.246 Why did you pick another, another one? 00:27:20.026 --> 00:27:20.836 Maybe it's Paula. 00:27:22.126 --> 00:27:23.146 Anything on Paula? 00:27:24.066 --> 00:27:24.576 Rupert Isaacson: Paula? 00:27:25.186 --> 00:27:25.516 Okay. 00:27:25.516 --> 00:27:26.416 I think I did see that. 00:27:26.421 --> 00:27:26.836 Hold on. 00:27:29.456 --> 00:27:29.996 Hold on. 00:27:34.396 --> 00:27:35.986 Diana Elbaum: I don't know, but I can find it. 00:27:36.136 --> 00:27:36.766 Hold on. 00:27:42.561 --> 00:27:44.441 It was about, it's funny. 00:27:47.651 --> 00:27:49.961 It was about the truth and the fake. 00:27:50.121 --> 00:27:54.471 So I guess I'm a precursor of what we live today. 00:27:55.651 --> 00:27:59.761 So it's Paula, that's the name in French. 00:28:00.291 --> 00:28:01.411 Yeah, I guess it's a cover. 00:28:01.411 --> 00:28:04.721 Not that I see the cover, but how can I find in English? 00:28:04.801 --> 00:28:11.506 Because my Google is in French, maybe in English, let's do English. 00:28:11.506 --> 00:28:13.246 See what it brings. 00:28:22.746 --> 00:28:25.096 There's a cover with a woman in dark glasses. 00:28:26.556 --> 00:28:28.496 That's the French cover. 00:28:30.276 --> 00:28:31.236 Rupert Isaacson: Was it set in modern 00:28:31.236 --> 00:28:31.726 Diana Elbaum: times? 00:28:32.336 --> 00:28:34.006 Well, it was set then, yeah. 00:28:34.006 --> 00:28:40.216 It's a book written in 1993, actually. 00:28:41.306 --> 00:28:42.356 Oh, yeah, I know. 00:28:42.436 --> 00:28:43.706 I know how I get on that. 00:28:43.706 --> 00:28:49.386 There was this then upcoming, uh, editor called Actorsuit who was really 00:28:49.386 --> 00:28:53.386 going into a different literature than usual, and I really loved that one, 00:28:53.386 --> 00:28:59.406 so I think I read, uh, what is the I, I don't even know the, I don't know 00:28:59.406 --> 00:29:01.226 how I can find the original title. 00:29:02.896 --> 00:29:04.256 And he's a wonderful writer. 00:29:07.696 --> 00:29:09.546 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I shall, I shall look up. 00:29:09.886 --> 00:29:14.376 Okay, so you, you were trying, you were still trying to get this book made. 00:29:15.026 --> 00:29:16.536 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, I was and I was getting all those. 00:29:17.236 --> 00:29:17.476 Yeah. 00:29:17.476 --> 00:29:20.886 And I was getting all those like either macho backlash or whatever. 00:29:21.056 --> 00:29:23.966 I was getting those kind of signals. 00:29:24.966 --> 00:29:28.796 And so after crying my heart out that I will never make it 00:29:28.806 --> 00:29:30.216 for like two or three days. 00:29:30.456 --> 00:29:36.253 I got a lucky break when I came back home, whereby the producer of Chantal 00:29:36.433 --> 00:29:41.503 Ackerman, who's an amazing Belgian food. 00:29:42.998 --> 00:29:48.088 director who did Jeanne Dilman, who's been voted as one of the best 00:29:49.388 --> 00:29:54.748 film in the last, I don't know, 50 years or something like that. 00:29:56.518 --> 00:29:57.978 Like a few months ago. 00:29:58.933 --> 00:30:03.323 Called me and she said, well, Chantal is doing this film who's the most 00:30:03.323 --> 00:30:06.783 commercial film she's going to do with Juliette Binoche and William Hurt. 00:30:06.803 --> 00:30:08.973 And it's between Paris and New York. 00:30:09.523 --> 00:30:13.163 And we've heard about you and we are looking for somebody to produce 00:30:13.163 --> 00:30:14.713 a film because we will not do it. 00:30:16.263 --> 00:30:19.833 And it was then a co production with France, with Balenciaga. 00:30:20.523 --> 00:30:22.083 And that was my break. 00:30:22.353 --> 00:30:22.493 And 00:30:22.493 --> 00:30:22.923 Rupert Isaacson: what was the 00:30:22.923 --> 00:30:23.573 Diana Elbaum: name of the film? 00:30:24.123 --> 00:30:25.853 It was called A Couch in New York. 00:30:26.083 --> 00:30:27.233 Rupert Isaacson: A Couch in New York. 00:30:28.613 --> 00:30:28.973 Okay. 00:30:29.093 --> 00:30:31.583 And that was your first, the first film that you produced. 00:30:32.033 --> 00:30:32.173 That 00:30:32.173 --> 00:30:32.693 Diana Elbaum: was your break. 00:30:33.213 --> 00:30:33.503 Yes. 00:30:33.753 --> 00:30:34.853 That was my really 00:30:34.853 --> 00:30:35.283 Rupert Isaacson: lucky break. 00:30:35.283 --> 00:30:38.053 William Hurt and Juliette Bouchard. 00:30:38.053 --> 00:30:38.613 Diana Elbaum: Sounds great. 00:30:39.123 --> 00:30:39.583 Yeah. 00:30:39.833 --> 00:30:47.523 And it was a, it was a huge, huge lesson of understanding the craziness of the job. 00:30:48.553 --> 00:30:56.893 As a producer, um, because it was really, you know, already Juliette 00:30:56.893 --> 00:31:00.153 Binoche was very known, of course, William Hurt was very known. 00:31:00.613 --> 00:31:07.653 Chantal is a very specific, deep art house, a world of her own, but the film 00:31:07.653 --> 00:31:11.003 was financed by very commercial companies. 00:31:11.658 --> 00:31:16.978 And that already, I understood there was red flag all over the project 00:31:17.218 --> 00:31:22.148 because on one hand, it was a rom com between Paris and New York. 00:31:22.148 --> 00:31:25.498 You can't go better than that with those actors. 00:31:25.648 --> 00:31:28.738 And on the other hand, it was a very author film. 00:31:29.788 --> 00:31:34.958 And but regardless of, I love the film and also it, it, it, it allowed me to, 00:31:34.958 --> 00:31:40.438 what to witness something else I had never witnessed is when the film came out, it 00:31:40.438 --> 00:31:43.738 didn't really do well except in Belgium. 00:31:45.288 --> 00:31:47.358 And It was my first film. 00:31:47.358 --> 00:31:51.788 So I was literally buying tickets for every screening, you know, in Brussels 00:31:52.118 --> 00:31:54.688 just to see how the audience would react. 00:31:55.458 --> 00:31:58.918 And then when I saw the audience coming out with kind of a smile on their 00:31:58.918 --> 00:32:01.268 face, I was like, how magical is that? 00:32:02.188 --> 00:32:06.656 Actually delivering to the world, something that people will take 00:32:06.656 --> 00:32:12.195 time to come and see, sit down two hours in a black, you know, in a 00:32:12.195 --> 00:32:14.618 theater, black place and pay for it. 00:32:15.888 --> 00:32:20.258 And come out with a smile or a tear afterwards, or an emotion. 00:32:20.958 --> 00:32:26.418 And that totally made sense all of a sudden about what my job could be. 00:32:27.498 --> 00:32:33.198 And it allowed me really to understand, thanks to that film, not only the, what 00:32:33.198 --> 00:32:38.718 was happening inside a film production, or rather inside of, yeah, trying to put 00:32:38.718 --> 00:32:44.503 together a film, and then working this kind of really crazy, High end Parisians, 00:32:45.113 --> 00:32:50.333 German, at the same time, preserving Chantal, whom I became very, I knew her 00:32:50.333 --> 00:32:56.023 before, but I became much closer to her, a real author and a voice of another 00:32:56.363 --> 00:32:58.123 against this pressure of the market. 00:32:58.393 --> 00:33:03.113 And on the other hand, seeing an audience, seeing people deliberately 00:33:03.143 --> 00:33:07.323 choosing to go and buy a ticket and then being really happy about it. 00:33:08.843 --> 00:33:11.233 Rupert Isaacson: I'm just gonna tell the listeners too. 00:33:11.233 --> 00:33:12.103 I'm just looking. 00:33:12.133 --> 00:33:18.033 I just, I just wikied both Paula, which is the name of the movie that 00:33:18.033 --> 00:33:20.163 didn't get made by Tony Lundgren. 00:33:20.203 --> 00:33:20.923 Yes, indeed. 00:33:21.413 --> 00:33:26.683 An aging painter versus a up and coming young diva, which sounds brilliant. 00:33:26.713 --> 00:33:31.283 And then this one that you made your first big break, a couch in New York. 00:33:31.373 --> 00:33:36.373 Where there's anonymous, an anonymous apartment swap and Juliette Binoche 00:33:36.473 --> 00:33:41.553 who's a dancer swaps with William Hurt, who's a psychoanalyst, and she 00:33:41.553 --> 00:33:46.963 starts rather illegally seeing his patients who show up, and a succession 00:33:46.963 --> 00:33:52.643 of her lovers start showing up in, in her apartment, and in the course 00:33:52.643 --> 00:33:56.818 of this, Of course, they fall out of love and then in love it looks great. 00:33:58.238 --> 00:34:02.898 Interestingly though as mainstream movies go, it's on the arthouse side. 00:34:03.568 --> 00:34:03.638 It's... 00:34:04.208 --> 00:34:09.148 So now here you are, you've sort of got a foot in Hollywood with a movie like this. 00:34:09.608 --> 00:34:10.468 Well, not really. 00:34:10.748 --> 00:34:11.638 Well, exactly. 00:34:11.648 --> 00:34:14.628 You would think you have because it's, it's, it's an American, these 00:34:14.628 --> 00:34:16.288 are, this is a big American actor. 00:34:16.538 --> 00:34:19.408 There would have been presumably some American financing. 00:34:20.148 --> 00:34:22.928 Diana Elbaum: No, on this one, there was French, mainly financing. 00:34:23.288 --> 00:34:23.518 Okay. 00:34:23.518 --> 00:34:27.836 And yeah, it's I think Chantal really... 00:34:30.076 --> 00:34:33.056 People were drawn, people are drawn to big name directors 00:34:33.056 --> 00:34:34.596 or very interesting directors. 00:34:34.616 --> 00:34:40.776 And of course, both of them had done amazing work before with great directors. 00:34:40.806 --> 00:34:47.946 And having a European director, having this kind of like, take on RomCom and 00:34:47.956 --> 00:34:51.076 New York and Paris was very infatuating. 00:34:51.106 --> 00:34:55.576 We actually shot in Germany in Babelsberg studio, so that was another thing of 00:34:55.596 --> 00:34:58.156 being in a mythic studio like Babelsberg. 00:34:58.886 --> 00:35:02.716 For those who don't know, we have a few mythic studios in the world, 00:35:02.716 --> 00:35:08.211 Cinecitta in Rome, Babelsberg, And Barandov in Babelsberg in Berlin 00:35:08.211 --> 00:35:12.331 and Barandov in Hungary, where like the history of cinema was made. 00:35:12.341 --> 00:35:16.641 So it was also for me being still the younger kid on the block around 00:35:16.661 --> 00:35:18.231 was like, Ooh, all those actors. 00:35:18.231 --> 00:35:18.421 Yeah. 00:35:18.421 --> 00:35:20.391 So I thought I was like, you know. 00:35:21.681 --> 00:35:25.671 I sort of, I thought I had made it then, but the road was still 00:35:25.671 --> 00:35:27.741 long to go after that one. 00:35:28.121 --> 00:35:30.441 Rupert Isaacson: Before we embark on that road, why is Babelsberg, 00:35:31.621 --> 00:35:35.481 um, such a legendary place for those of us not in the movie industry? 00:35:35.521 --> 00:35:38.181 A lot of us be the first time we've heard that name. 00:35:38.461 --> 00:35:40.461 Why was film history made there? 00:35:41.021 --> 00:35:43.681 Diana Elbaum: Because all those studios were built really 00:35:43.681 --> 00:35:45.641 at the golden age of cinema. 00:35:46.121 --> 00:35:49.511 I don't exactly know if Babelsberg was, I think Babelsberg was 00:35:49.521 --> 00:35:51.131 even built before the war. 00:35:51.171 --> 00:35:55.801 So we're talking about studios that are today almost a hundred years old, where 00:35:56.181 --> 00:36:00.641 At the time, I don't think there were so many films made on location on relocation. 00:36:00.651 --> 00:36:02.311 A lot of stuff was done in studios. 00:36:02.321 --> 00:36:08.301 So they've seen the like of the Fellini's and, and, and at least I can't really 00:36:08.301 --> 00:36:14.271 name, I don't know if I I'm not a big historian in film, but the thing is 00:36:14.281 --> 00:36:16.311 that there is something in those walls. 00:36:16.511 --> 00:36:18.431 that ooze 00:36:18.511 --> 00:36:19.281 Rupert Isaacson: greatness. 00:36:19.521 --> 00:36:21.431 Like Pinewood in the UK, for example. 00:36:21.431 --> 00:36:22.661 Diana Elbaum: Pinewood in the UK. 00:36:22.731 --> 00:36:22.971 Yeah. 00:36:23.321 --> 00:36:27.161 So there's, there is not that many, I'm not even talking about the American lots 00:36:27.221 --> 00:36:32.531 but I'm talking about European studios and they, and you see the people work 00:36:32.531 --> 00:36:37.511 there and you see the art department, you have all the profession, a film 00:36:37.511 --> 00:36:40.181 business there and a filmmaking there. 00:36:40.586 --> 00:36:45.176 Which is still very, I mean, up until the digital era was extremely 00:36:45.206 --> 00:36:47.556 traditional and extremely artisanal. 00:36:48.046 --> 00:36:53.746 And you have those people who have those amazing qualities of building and creating 00:36:53.876 --> 00:37:00.486 spaces in the clutch in New York, the whole Paris apartment was made there. 00:37:01.031 --> 00:37:03.361 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so was it not shot in New York at all? 00:37:03.371 --> 00:37:03.521 Was 00:37:03.521 --> 00:37:03.861 Diana Elbaum: it only? 00:37:03.861 --> 00:37:07.611 We did, we shot the apartment, the New York apartment in New 00:37:07.611 --> 00:37:10.971 York, but the Paris one was shot in, because it was a small space. 00:37:10.981 --> 00:37:15.191 The thing also, you just have to imagine, she was a dancer, had no 00:37:15.191 --> 00:37:16.971 money, it was a small apartment. 00:37:16.981 --> 00:37:17.231 So. 00:37:17.766 --> 00:37:20.936 To be able to fit a crew and move the cameras, you have to be able 00:37:20.936 --> 00:37:23.866 to move the wall, which is in real life really complex to do. 00:37:23.926 --> 00:37:25.186 So you do it in studios. 00:37:25.646 --> 00:37:28.446 You can do top shots, you can do the lighting you want. 00:37:28.476 --> 00:37:33.266 So we had a beautiful, beautiful backdrop of Paris behind it 00:37:33.296 --> 00:37:34.606 and it's all hand painted. 00:37:34.606 --> 00:37:40.666 And you had all those craft people around the studios who were just amazing. 00:37:41.106 --> 00:37:45.516 It's amazing to see it's kind of, being inside of yeah, inside 00:37:45.516 --> 00:37:47.606 of Inside of inside the art. 00:37:47.646 --> 00:37:49.156 I don't know how to better say it. 00:37:49.916 --> 00:37:55.166 And yeah, so those studios are really, if anybody goes to Berlin 00:37:55.166 --> 00:37:59.796 or to Rome, um, are visitable. 00:37:59.886 --> 00:38:02.056 So it's really great stuff to visit. 00:38:02.991 --> 00:38:03.411 Cause it's 00:38:03.561 --> 00:38:03.961 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:38:04.191 --> 00:38:08.511 Okay, so there you are, you're at this Babersberg golden age 00:38:08.511 --> 00:38:11.731 of movie place in, in Berlin. 00:38:11.731 --> 00:38:13.701 You're making an international film. 00:38:13.701 --> 00:38:15.331 You've, you've, you've kind of made it. 00:38:15.331 --> 00:38:16.851 Well, 00:38:17.431 --> 00:38:18.551 Diana Elbaum: yeah, in my head, I made it. 00:38:18.551 --> 00:38:20.911 And I didn't know it was such a long road afterwards. 00:38:20.911 --> 00:38:26.001 But yeah, then I get an offer to go to Paris by the Balenciaga production house. 00:38:26.131 --> 00:38:27.951 And I was I decided not to do it. 00:38:28.586 --> 00:38:31.916 There was there was something in me who said, I'm not a big city girl. 00:38:32.376 --> 00:38:37.856 And and I was starting to get my environment clearer in Belgium. 00:38:38.476 --> 00:38:44.426 Then came after that so, you know, and also it, it's, it, it kind of 00:38:44.426 --> 00:38:49.326 need to remember that in, in the, in the nineties, again, I was though 00:38:50.106 --> 00:38:52.206 the Balenciaga producer was a woman. 00:38:52.761 --> 00:38:56.761 But there was still an era of very complex for a younger 00:38:56.771 --> 00:38:59.141 woman to try to be entrepreneur. 00:38:59.951 --> 00:39:02.481 And also, that's part of the job. 00:39:03.031 --> 00:39:07.661 I think what I was mentioning before, my fear, I have no fear of tomorrow, has 00:39:07.661 --> 00:39:11.031 to, is a kind of entrepreneurial thought. 00:39:11.031 --> 00:39:15.381 And I'm going to build my own business. 00:39:16.191 --> 00:39:22.681 And so I felt Paris was too big, um, and, and not the place I wanted to be 00:39:22.681 --> 00:39:26.571 anyway, because I'm, I like Paris, but I don't like Paris at the same time. 00:39:27.471 --> 00:39:29.361 And already then and still now. 00:39:29.461 --> 00:39:34.991 And what happened is that God, this is so long ago. 00:39:35.161 --> 00:39:38.681 What happened is that those young kids came to my office. 00:39:39.476 --> 00:39:44.726 One day my office, big name my one room in my one apartment, one 00:39:44.726 --> 00:39:49.206 room apartment and said, Oh, we heard you are producing films. 00:39:49.236 --> 00:39:53.546 You know, we know you've done the Chantal Ackerman and we have this 00:39:53.556 --> 00:39:57.706 script and we also know, because one of the things I said to myself, if 00:39:57.706 --> 00:39:59.236 I need to make it, I need the tools. 00:39:59.286 --> 00:40:02.136 So the came out, Sony came out with those mini. 00:40:02.376 --> 00:40:04.596 Cassette kind of camcorder. 00:40:05.066 --> 00:40:05.896 And I bought one. 00:40:05.906 --> 00:40:07.496 It was quite expensive at the time. 00:40:07.496 --> 00:40:09.016 And I was like, well, I have the tool now. 00:40:09.166 --> 00:40:10.036 I need the stories. 00:40:10.036 --> 00:40:10.366 Right. 00:40:10.716 --> 00:40:11.966 But they came for the tool. 00:40:12.376 --> 00:40:15.176 And I was like, yeah, I'll give you my camera if you want for your film, 00:40:15.176 --> 00:40:16.496 but I'd love to read the script. 00:40:16.566 --> 00:40:18.136 And I fell in love with the script. 00:40:18.736 --> 00:40:20.786 And I say, not only I'm going to give you the camera, but I'm 00:40:20.786 --> 00:40:22.046 going to find money for the film. 00:40:22.046 --> 00:40:28.016 And that's really my first, that's yet another thing being a producer because 00:40:28.016 --> 00:40:29.836 it's a generic term for a lot of. 00:40:30.466 --> 00:40:34.406 Different kind of way of working as a producer as more moving into 00:40:34.406 --> 00:40:36.186 the creative producing space. 00:40:37.886 --> 00:40:38.546 Okay, 00:40:38.616 --> 00:40:41.686 Rupert Isaacson: I was just, by the way again, wiki ing madly 00:40:41.786 --> 00:40:43.076 while you were talking there. 00:40:43.356 --> 00:40:44.406 Babelsberg Studios. 00:40:44.406 --> 00:40:47.526 For those who I wondered about this, if it was where Metropolis 00:40:47.526 --> 00:40:48.616 was made, you know, the great... 00:40:48.656 --> 00:40:49.326 I think so. 00:40:49.486 --> 00:40:50.036 It was. 00:40:50.056 --> 00:40:50.516 It was. 00:40:51.166 --> 00:40:53.336 Diana Elbaum: It's really even more than a century old. 00:40:53.626 --> 00:40:55.816 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it goes back to 1912, apparently. 00:40:56.136 --> 00:41:00.546 But if you, if people, if listeners might think it's consigned to history, 00:41:01.686 --> 00:41:06.086 Uh, V for Vendetta, Captain America, Civil War, Inglourious Basterds, The 00:41:06.086 --> 00:41:10.166 Bourne Ultimatum, Cloud Atlas, The Grand Budapest Hotel, One of the Hunger 00:41:10.166 --> 00:41:14.176 Games, et cetera, et cetera, and The Matrix Resurrections, all filmed there. 00:41:14.566 --> 00:41:15.866 So, interesting. 00:41:16.046 --> 00:41:18.976 For those of us who, you know, see movies... 00:41:20.166 --> 00:41:24.986 Now mostly on Netflix, honestly we all kind of think Hollywood and even if 00:41:24.986 --> 00:41:29.556 they're sort of apparently Hollywood movies And I know this from my time Riding 00:41:29.556 --> 00:41:35.256 on movie sets to finance my way through college That I would be at Pinewood or 00:41:35.256 --> 00:41:38.706 Shepperton or somewhere on location and sitting around on horses for you know 00:41:38.716 --> 00:41:41.946 hours and hours and hours waiting to be told to do something for five minutes and 00:41:41.946 --> 00:41:46.346 then go home after sitting on the horse for 10 hours, you know, and that's, as 00:41:46.346 --> 00:41:47.906 you know, what life on movie sets is. 00:41:47.906 --> 00:41:49.006 It's waiting around. 00:41:49.446 --> 00:41:54.976 But often these movies would be shot partly there, but of course, part 00:41:55.026 --> 00:41:59.706 shot, part shot, partly elsewhere, but they might be American movies, 00:41:59.706 --> 00:42:02.386 but they'd be shot in England for tax reasons or this or that. 00:42:02.416 --> 00:42:05.446 And it was this kind of, I remember at the time realizing, oh my gosh, this is 00:42:05.476 --> 00:42:07.326 this complex, complex, complex world. 00:42:07.656 --> 00:42:12.576 So just before you go on there, thank you for illuminating for those of us 00:42:12.646 --> 00:42:16.916 in You know, don't know Babelsberg and there are studio tours there. 00:42:16.916 --> 00:42:21.226 If you're next in Berlin and Potsdam, the Weimar film thing, go check it out. 00:42:21.426 --> 00:42:22.066 So, okay. 00:42:22.066 --> 00:42:27.456 So now you're at the point Diana, where having had this conversation in 00:42:27.456 --> 00:42:33.176 a bar in in Israel and by hook and by crook, you have now found yourself. 00:42:33.841 --> 00:42:39.251 Going out to get your first money for a movie and it's now, now the 00:42:39.251 --> 00:42:41.231 movie life has shifted to Paris. 00:42:41.981 --> 00:42:45.281 How do you, how do you find money to make a film? 00:42:45.391 --> 00:42:46.831 And what is this film again, by the way? 00:42:46.991 --> 00:42:47.521 Diana Elbaum: Give us the time. 00:42:47.681 --> 00:42:49.641 That film, that film is a great film. 00:42:50.071 --> 00:42:52.751 That film is called Thomas in love, Thomas 00:42:52.851 --> 00:42:53.081 Rupert Isaacson: in 00:42:53.091 --> 00:42:53.431 Diana Elbaum: love. 00:42:54.431 --> 00:42:59.731 So yeah, we can do a whole podcast on that one another time. 00:42:59.741 --> 00:43:00.951 But yeah, how did 00:43:00.951 --> 00:43:01.671 Rupert Isaacson: you, how did you. 00:43:02.041 --> 00:43:03.621 How did you find the money for Thomas in love? 00:43:03.901 --> 00:43:08.851 Diana Elbaum: Well, we in Europe, so we have a lot of we are, 00:43:08.861 --> 00:43:13.431 there's a lot of investment from the government into the culture. 00:43:14.401 --> 00:43:19.321 So we are calling it in the jargon of filmmaking self funding. 00:43:20.221 --> 00:43:21.361 So it's all the subsidies. 00:43:22.076 --> 00:43:28.036 So you go subsidy, then you go market, meaning broadcaster, distributors, 00:43:28.406 --> 00:43:31.916 and then you go to international sales, which are the people will 00:43:31.916 --> 00:43:33.246 sell the film around the world. 00:43:34.491 --> 00:43:38.521 Those were the scheme at the time that I started there are many more 00:43:38.521 --> 00:43:43.621 today as the one you mentioned tax credit and regional fund today. 00:43:43.621 --> 00:43:47.451 And then, of course, there's private equity, but at a time in Europe, it was 00:43:47.451 --> 00:43:52.821 only subsidy and a little bit of a little bit of market money, like a broadcaster, 00:43:52.851 --> 00:43:57.181 or, of course, there were no streamers at the time and then distribution, 00:43:57.211 --> 00:43:58.881 the exhibition, the theaters. 00:44:00.471 --> 00:44:03.181 The the those were the way of financing. 00:44:03.581 --> 00:44:07.181 There were, you know, so that's how I got the first one made. 00:44:07.181 --> 00:44:13.051 It was very low budget, ended up in Venice, film festival and competition. 00:44:13.901 --> 00:44:18.531 And yeah, and then, and it actually sold all over the world. 00:44:18.541 --> 00:44:20.041 It was quite a big success. 00:44:20.421 --> 00:44:22.071 Rupert Isaacson: Just, just to pause you there. 00:44:22.251 --> 00:44:27.271 Thomas is an agoraphobe who hasn't left his apartment in eight years. 00:44:27.351 --> 00:44:33.681 His psychoanalyst consults him to meet a woman through some online services. 00:44:33.991 --> 00:44:37.441 And of course, this is a 2000 movie when this was something quite new. 00:44:37.871 --> 00:44:39.231 Will he find love online? 00:44:39.721 --> 00:44:41.071 Will he ever leave his apartment? 00:44:41.681 --> 00:44:46.921 So, okay, so you're making this movie in 2000 when the whole online. 00:44:47.161 --> 00:44:49.061 com thing is still somewhat new. 00:44:49.741 --> 00:44:50.771 Yeah, especially in Europe. 00:44:50.971 --> 00:44:57.031 Right, and online dating then, you know, people would have died rather than admit 00:44:57.061 --> 00:45:01.691 that they were looking for love online, let alone Tinder and Grindr, and now 00:45:01.691 --> 00:45:03.058 it's like, what, you're not on Tinder? 00:45:03.058 --> 00:45:06.541 You know, do you remember, it's so interesting how 00:45:06.541 --> 00:45:08.551 social norms move on so fast. 00:45:09.241 --> 00:45:09.481 But of course, 00:45:09.691 --> 00:45:15.371 Diana Elbaum: and also that was part of, I mean, to, to just add to that, I think 00:45:15.381 --> 00:45:19.451 that was part of the, of the success because everybody was like the way we are 00:45:19.451 --> 00:45:24.391 with artificial intelligence, not knowing what was that revolution was starting. 00:45:24.701 --> 00:45:27.751 Everybody was freaked out and say, why are you going to make love on online? 00:45:27.751 --> 00:45:31.461 And you know, your life will be dictated, so of course, but so we. 00:45:31.711 --> 00:45:36.011 We, we unknowingly, because we're Belgian, so we have no afterthought. 00:45:36.051 --> 00:45:37.461 We just like what we do. 00:45:37.461 --> 00:45:40.871 And like, there's no like a long term thought about it, but that 00:45:41.301 --> 00:45:45.561 those kids or those directors that came to me and writers that came 00:45:45.561 --> 00:45:48.641 to me and said they, that's the way they were looking at the future. 00:45:49.001 --> 00:45:52.681 And I, and what I love, I still love the film because I sold 00:45:52.681 --> 00:45:54.561 it like a lot during COVID. 00:45:54.966 --> 00:46:00.976 Funnily enough, I resold the rights to a lot of broadcaster and local streamers 00:46:00.996 --> 00:46:02.916 during COVID because it's exactly that. 00:46:03.356 --> 00:46:08.186 And the funny thing also is that my director who's a very Christian man, I 00:46:08.186 --> 00:46:13.366 have to say, uh, probably the only one that I know who's devoted Christian, 00:46:13.916 --> 00:46:18.206 was, uh, everybody had tattoos. 00:46:18.646 --> 00:46:23.166 In the a lot of people had tattoo in the in the film and it was 00:46:23.166 --> 00:46:24.536 a time there were no tattoos. 00:46:24.846 --> 00:46:26.516 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, before there was a tattoo. 00:46:26.516 --> 00:46:27.146 And it was always a 00:46:27.146 --> 00:46:27.936 Diana Elbaum: big discussion. 00:46:27.996 --> 00:46:29.756 I say, why is everybody having tattoos? 00:46:29.756 --> 00:46:31.796 They say one day people will lose God. 00:46:32.096 --> 00:46:33.746 They will need to connect to something else. 00:46:33.796 --> 00:46:35.026 Tattoo will be the way. 00:46:35.276 --> 00:46:38.376 Now that I look around me, I have to say, he's still a good friend 00:46:38.376 --> 00:46:40.546 and was like, how visionary was he? 00:46:40.816 --> 00:46:44.586 Whether on his belief, but at least the way he saw the world becoming. 00:46:44.586 --> 00:46:46.206 And, and so Thomas in Love was... 00:46:46.581 --> 00:46:50.331 Was playing on the fears of what internet would be without us knowing, 00:46:50.331 --> 00:46:52.071 we're just playing with the idea. 00:46:52.831 --> 00:46:56.431 And so, and there, that's really when things start to take off. 00:46:56.921 --> 00:46:59.331 Because of the success of that film, because it was at the Venice 00:46:59.331 --> 00:47:01.811 Film Festival in competition. 00:47:01.831 --> 00:47:04.461 And because, you know, it was sold all over. 00:47:04.461 --> 00:47:08.221 So my name started to go around the circles of, well, she 00:47:08.221 --> 00:47:09.431 actually, you know, know how to 00:47:09.431 --> 00:47:10.101 Rupert Isaacson: do stuff. 00:47:10.526 --> 00:47:13.366 Now I just want to pause you again there to ask you a couple of questions. 00:47:13.366 --> 00:47:16.426 So these are the kinds of things one hears when one is listening 00:47:16.426 --> 00:47:18.676 to movie people being interviewed. 00:47:18.676 --> 00:47:21.946 Oh, you know, well, I, I've got the money that sort of a bit this 00:47:21.946 --> 00:47:23.136 way, and then I sold it here. 00:47:23.646 --> 00:47:27.736 Having made and sold an independent movie myself, I know that it's 00:47:27.736 --> 00:47:29.236 not quite such a smooth process. 00:47:29.901 --> 00:47:33.911 When you say that and I think for listeners, this is quite fascinating how 00:47:33.911 --> 00:47:35.881 movies get financed and how they get sold. 00:47:36.931 --> 00:47:40.901 And of course, this is part of living free and writing free that one would like to 00:47:41.361 --> 00:47:42.891 maybe do this sort of thing for a living. 00:47:44.121 --> 00:47:49.461 I know you said that you found the money to make the film through EU subsidies 00:47:49.461 --> 00:47:55.141 for the arts, but I'm sure there's millions of people constantly trying 00:47:55.141 --> 00:47:58.591 to dip into those, um, piles of money. 00:47:58.751 --> 00:47:59.241 What? 00:48:00.356 --> 00:48:04.236 What made you successful there and then I'm going to ask you 00:48:04.236 --> 00:48:07.736 as a subsequent question, how do you sell a film at a festival. 00:48:07.836 --> 00:48:13.206 So let's start with the first one, how do you get this EU money that's 00:48:13.246 --> 00:48:16.726 floating around, but there's a bazillion people out there trying to get it. 00:48:18.686 --> 00:48:20.766 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, it's, it's a good question because I think 00:48:20.766 --> 00:48:24.706 it's quite beautiful definition of Europe, actually in which I 00:48:24.706 --> 00:48:27.446 believe really dearly and fiercely. 00:48:27.716 --> 00:48:31.256 Firstly, there is the national funding. 00:48:32.156 --> 00:48:36.496 So, you, you have to understand something about the film industry. 00:48:36.516 --> 00:48:40.106 We are as much a creative industry as we are an industry. 00:48:41.566 --> 00:48:43.866 So those two poles are really interesting. 00:48:43.916 --> 00:48:46.526 And continue to be throughout my career. 00:48:46.566 --> 00:48:50.276 Interesting because we provide a lot of work for a lot of people. 00:48:50.606 --> 00:48:52.536 It's a huge provider of work. 00:48:53.186 --> 00:48:55.886 And at the same time, we are a voice of. 00:48:56.306 --> 00:48:56.896 a country. 00:48:58.176 --> 00:49:02.566 So the same way Belgian chocolate is known around the world, I wish Belgian 00:49:02.566 --> 00:49:06.266 film were known around the world, but it has actually a similar value in 00:49:06.316 --> 00:49:12.966 terms of employment and in, in terms of, of getting people to know us. 00:49:14.276 --> 00:49:17.616 I'll give you an example that I think is going to highlight much more is 00:49:17.636 --> 00:49:21.876 that, for example, when there was Green Card, this film with I'm not even 00:49:21.946 --> 00:49:23.556 going to name the name of the actor. 00:49:23.596 --> 00:49:26.326 Unnameable French actor today. 00:49:26.696 --> 00:49:28.336 The film was such a big success. 00:49:29.056 --> 00:49:30.276 It was shot in New York. 00:49:30.286 --> 00:49:33.806 The New York then film commission was starting, decided to put a 00:49:33.806 --> 00:49:37.686 tax break because they realized that films bring tourism. 00:49:39.161 --> 00:49:42.781 People go to Southern France to look at the chocolate where chocolate, 00:49:42.791 --> 00:49:45.621 the chocolate film was shot. 00:49:45.751 --> 00:49:50.551 It brings people when I go to New Zealand because my son wants to go and 00:49:50.551 --> 00:49:52.391 see where Lord of the Rings was shot. 00:49:52.891 --> 00:49:54.321 Then it brings stories. 00:49:54.341 --> 00:49:58.751 There's an after effect to the industry was extremely important for the people, 00:49:58.751 --> 00:50:01.221 for the places where it was shot. 00:50:01.291 --> 00:50:02.751 So you have to consider that. 00:50:03.216 --> 00:50:07.996 Films in itself is a creative, creative act, but at the same time, 00:50:08.026 --> 00:50:11.216 it's also a return on economy for the places where films are shot. 00:50:11.516 --> 00:50:13.696 And that's why today wasn't happening. 00:50:13.726 --> 00:50:19.066 Then you see all, every single region, I won't say in the world, 00:50:19.106 --> 00:50:21.386 but at least in Europe, in the U. 00:50:21.386 --> 00:50:21.666 S. 00:50:22.601 --> 00:50:25.881 And now it's going, it's, it's opening up to the rest of the world. 00:50:25.891 --> 00:50:32.171 The Middle East per se have what we call regional funding, which means that 00:50:32.211 --> 00:50:36.261 come to us, we'll give you money, part of the money you need for your shoot, 00:50:36.581 --> 00:50:39.811 because if the film is successful, they know it will trigger tourism. 00:50:41.301 --> 00:50:41.701 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:50:41.781 --> 00:50:42.371 Interesting. 00:50:42.771 --> 00:50:43.441 I didn't know that. 00:50:43.441 --> 00:50:47.401 I thought the tax breaks were, were from a different thing. 00:50:47.401 --> 00:50:49.131 I didn't realize they were connected to tourism. 00:50:49.181 --> 00:50:50.541 That's really interesting. 00:50:50.791 --> 00:50:53.621 So that's, so they're thinking if this movie gets made and is 00:50:53.621 --> 00:50:56.601 successful, people are going to want to come and check out the locations. 00:50:57.431 --> 00:51:00.741 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, not only that, it also provides a lot of work. 00:51:00.791 --> 00:51:03.591 I mean, I can give you an example, for example, of the southern region 00:51:03.591 --> 00:51:09.201 of Sweden, which is the region of Malmö and Gothenburg, uh, that 00:51:09.281 --> 00:51:14.481 region was entirely I mean, the main business was Saab, those cars. 00:51:14.931 --> 00:51:17.971 If you remember, everybody wanted to have a sub when we're at least. 00:51:18.021 --> 00:51:18.361 Yeah. 00:51:18.361 --> 00:51:18.581 Yeah. 00:51:18.581 --> 00:51:19.031 Subs. 00:51:19.031 --> 00:51:19.281 Yeah. 00:51:19.451 --> 00:51:20.081 Yeah. 00:51:20.401 --> 00:51:21.971 And there was this one 00:51:22.031 --> 00:51:23.101 Rupert Isaacson: get a moose and survive. 00:51:23.131 --> 00:51:23.361 That's right. 00:51:23.371 --> 00:51:24.181 No, that was Volvo. 00:51:24.231 --> 00:51:24.471 Sorry. 00:51:24.471 --> 00:51:24.651 Yeah. 00:51:24.711 --> 00:51:24.961 Yeah. 00:51:25.461 --> 00:51:29.191 Diana Elbaum: So the thing is that the entire, this entire 00:51:29.191 --> 00:51:31.691 region mainly lived off. 00:51:32.021 --> 00:51:33.231 Of that one industry. 00:51:33.251 --> 00:51:38.491 And this one politician way back then, like 25 years ago, asked the question, 00:51:38.491 --> 00:51:40.521 what if the car industry crashes? 00:51:40.651 --> 00:51:42.871 What's going to happen to the people who live there? 00:51:43.551 --> 00:51:48.281 And so he managed, it was really, I mean, and this is really how the 00:51:48.291 --> 00:51:50.371 regional fund started to be created. 00:51:50.601 --> 00:51:54.381 He managed to convince the politician to invest in filmmaking. 00:51:54.391 --> 00:51:57.331 They build a studio where Las Ventrilles is mainly shooting. 00:51:57.661 --> 00:51:58.181 I don't know. 00:51:58.201 --> 00:51:59.721 I don't remember the name of the studio. 00:52:00.126 --> 00:52:05.546 They create a special branch at the university for our directing and other 00:52:06.266 --> 00:52:10.566 profession in the in the film business and they start to give subsidies 00:52:10.566 --> 00:52:14.186 out a lot of subsidies and then. 00:52:14.626 --> 00:52:17.576 It boomed because we are very cheap people. 00:52:17.586 --> 00:52:19.026 We go where the money is, huh? 00:52:19.536 --> 00:52:22.606 So a lot of people, Lars von Trier went to shoot there, open a production 00:52:22.606 --> 00:52:26.256 company there, but a lot of other, a lot of other films were made there. 00:52:26.686 --> 00:52:33.306 And when Saab actually crashed, they of course failed it, but not as much 00:52:33.476 --> 00:52:36.251 as if there was no alternative to it. 00:52:37.351 --> 00:52:44.201 So that's what the industry part of our job it's so that's why we also very we can 00:52:44.211 --> 00:52:48.781 make policy change either because of the content and I'll give you another example 00:52:48.781 --> 00:52:56.131 if you'd want about that, or because of the sheer manpower we use on making films. 00:52:57.461 --> 00:52:58.651 We do make a difference. 00:52:59.511 --> 00:53:01.061 And, and it's culture. 00:53:01.681 --> 00:53:06.121 Also to one of the thing I want to mention regarding Europe. 00:53:06.131 --> 00:53:06.701 You're right. 00:53:06.701 --> 00:53:07.861 There is European money. 00:53:07.861 --> 00:53:13.291 The European money is basically linked to the creation of the European Union, 00:53:13.611 --> 00:53:17.801 which was set up after World War Two to make sure that we will never 00:53:17.801 --> 00:53:22.541 fight each other again and oblige us somehow to collaborate with each other. 00:53:22.961 --> 00:53:26.561 So besides the national funding, you have the European funding. 00:53:26.571 --> 00:53:28.161 European funding is only. 00:53:28.411 --> 00:53:33.681 given if you are co producing, that's a term, with other European countries. 00:53:34.486 --> 00:53:38.786 So like, for example, if I have a film where the basement is in Belgium, but 00:53:38.816 --> 00:53:42.826 I'm going to go to shoot in Slovenia because I need mountains and then going 00:53:42.826 --> 00:53:46.326 to go to Spain because I need beach and it can be anywhere in Europe, the 00:53:46.326 --> 00:53:49.436 fact that I'm working with another two European countries, or even in Europe, so. 00:53:49.436 --> 00:53:54.266 Only one allows me to go to super funding, European funding. 00:53:55.416 --> 00:54:00.266 And this is really stems from that time after World War II, when, you know, they 00:54:00.266 --> 00:54:03.756 needed to find Schumann and the rest of them needed to find a solution for 00:54:03.756 --> 00:54:06.016 the European not to fight each other. 00:54:06.086 --> 00:54:10.866 So, so far it's still holding a little bit, but that allowed us, that's how 00:54:10.876 --> 00:54:14.766 we start then to co produce with other country, discover other way of telling 00:54:14.766 --> 00:54:19.476 stories, discovering new talent, discovering other way of functioning 00:54:19.666 --> 00:54:21.386 and getting to know each other better. 00:54:21.946 --> 00:54:22.316 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:54:22.316 --> 00:54:25.696 So, I mean, something I was going to ask you was, you know, you said you're 00:54:25.696 --> 00:54:28.876 looking back on your younger self saying, well, I wanted to change the world. 00:54:28.876 --> 00:54:29.776 And I, you know, I was. 00:54:30.326 --> 00:54:34.086 Worried about social injustice, and I was going to say, okay, well, how did films 00:54:34.086 --> 00:54:39.066 like Thomas in Love and Couch in New York and so on look at that, but it's quite 00:54:39.106 --> 00:54:43.616 interesting to look at it through this lens now later to say, and I do know that 00:54:43.616 --> 00:54:47.366 you have, obviously, and still do make films that do address social injustice, 00:54:47.366 --> 00:54:51.306 and we'll talk about that in a minute, but it's something which might, would not 00:54:51.306 --> 00:54:55.736 have occurred to me until you made this point just now, for example, this story 00:54:55.736 --> 00:55:00.631 in South Sweden where someone says, look, what happens if This industry crashes. 00:55:00.631 --> 00:55:04.721 This is the only thing we've got some farsighted person persuades government 00:55:05.081 --> 00:55:08.091 to invest down there in an industry that hasn't really yet happened. 00:55:08.311 --> 00:55:13.061 They invest the car industry does indeed crash and they've got something and where 00:55:13.061 --> 00:55:15.061 the note I made here was policy change. 00:55:15.631 --> 00:55:21.826 I think you're right that the, the influence that movies have, the only 00:55:21.826 --> 00:55:24.916 thing I think that's, that's ever exceeded it, which is now beginning 00:55:24.916 --> 00:55:28.806 to exceed it is, of course, computer gaming and that, of course, is now 00:55:28.826 --> 00:55:34.166 marrying perhaps an unholy alliance, but nonetheless, marrying the movie industry. 00:55:34.386 --> 00:55:34.716 Yeah, 00:55:36.096 --> 00:55:39.186 Diana Elbaum: I'm going to have to tell you, it's not only the 00:55:39.276 --> 00:55:43.406 impact of the industry as an industry, it's also the impact of. 00:55:44.861 --> 00:55:49.201 When you have films like Rosetta, who was a Pandora, the Belgian Pandora, in, 00:55:49.301 --> 00:55:55.411 I can't remember when, 90s something, the film was about a young woman not 00:55:55.421 --> 00:55:59.361 being able to find, who dropped out of the society, of, it was on the 00:55:59.371 --> 00:56:02.001 margin of society, and had to endure... 00:56:02.541 --> 00:56:07.041 Labor almost forced labor, no pay harassment and so forth. 00:56:07.521 --> 00:56:08.731 And it was a trend. 00:56:08.741 --> 00:56:10.091 It started a trend. 00:56:10.101 --> 00:56:13.561 It was a trend where the young people coming on the market 00:56:13.581 --> 00:56:15.501 without any skills socially. 00:56:15.501 --> 00:56:18.321 I mean, literally here were overlooked. 00:56:18.331 --> 00:56:19.691 There was no protection for them. 00:56:19.741 --> 00:56:24.001 And after the film came out, became the Rosetta law to protect. 00:56:24.831 --> 00:56:25.251 the kids. 00:56:25.261 --> 00:56:26.971 So this is the social impact. 00:56:26.971 --> 00:56:27.401 You have that. 00:56:27.401 --> 00:56:29.121 Absolutely. 00:56:29.121 --> 00:56:34.911 And you have the beautiful example of in Kenya of Rafiki was the first film 00:56:35.001 --> 00:56:40.221 recently who spoke about homosexuality was banned, but because he was taken in 00:56:40.231 --> 00:56:45.001 the festival, because it was a revelation of a voice from coming from Kenya on 00:56:45.001 --> 00:56:48.431 LGBTQ issues of the sudden it opened. 00:56:48.806 --> 00:56:57.026 Then it allowed the discussion on LGBTQ rights in Kenya and in Africa as a whole, 00:56:57.176 --> 00:57:00.056 but it starts, it's a trigger for more. 00:57:00.056 --> 00:57:04.576 So you have the entertainment world, like I did, Thomas in Love for me was 00:57:04.576 --> 00:57:08.516 a social, totally political and social film, because it had to do with somebody 00:57:08.546 --> 00:57:11.906 who was neurodivergent, actually. 00:57:12.116 --> 00:57:13.026 Yeah, yeah. 00:57:13.026 --> 00:57:16.406 And nobody was like, everybody was laughing, but literally. 00:57:17.406 --> 00:57:22.046 When you have that, I mean, it is about then what do we do with the 00:57:22.046 --> 00:57:26.916 people in our society and he so the world is invented around that. 00:57:26.916 --> 00:57:29.846 But I think you have the entertainment world. 00:57:29.906 --> 00:57:31.636 And yes, I saw Barbie and I love it. 00:57:31.636 --> 00:57:33.726 And I think it's still quite political, actually. 00:57:34.016 --> 00:57:37.206 But I think everything you see, you can actually look at the political. 00:57:37.416 --> 00:57:38.176 angle of it. 00:57:38.726 --> 00:57:42.446 Some you might like and some you might hate and that's totally okay. 00:57:42.446 --> 00:57:45.016 And I think that's actually what makes the world better. 00:57:45.416 --> 00:57:49.176 But the fact is to go and see it and decide which film you're going to 00:57:49.176 --> 00:57:54.526 go and see and not being, not being dictates by the algorithm and still 00:57:54.596 --> 00:57:56.386 keep the curiosity about the film. 00:57:56.386 --> 00:57:56.656 Yeah. 00:57:56.656 --> 00:58:00.906 Let's go and see a Chinese film and let's go and see you know, South African film 00:58:00.906 --> 00:58:02.366 and let's go and see a Chilean film. 00:58:02.416 --> 00:58:04.666 It's amazing how it connects. 00:58:05.376 --> 00:58:07.856 Because we all live differently the same 00:58:07.866 --> 00:58:08.206 Rupert Isaacson: things. 00:58:08.446 --> 00:58:08.856 It's true. 00:58:08.856 --> 00:58:11.116 And I think that's something that's become more mainstream now. 00:58:11.146 --> 00:58:15.196 I mean, for example, you know, if you take a long haul airline flight some 00:58:15.196 --> 00:58:18.916 years ago, the movies that would have been offered would have just been 00:58:18.916 --> 00:58:21.286 all new releases and some classics. 00:58:21.566 --> 00:58:22.146 Now. 00:58:22.776 --> 00:58:25.156 You know, even on something like American Airlines, which is a 00:58:25.176 --> 00:58:29.716 relatively conservative, uh, would make relatively conservative offerings. 00:58:30.346 --> 00:58:33.056 I fly back and forth to Texas on American all the time. 00:58:33.346 --> 00:58:37.846 And I, I noticed that just sometime before COVID, they started doing 00:58:37.846 --> 00:58:39.026 all this international cinema. 00:58:39.496 --> 00:58:41.486 And I don't think they were doing it. 00:58:42.111 --> 00:58:47.711 Particularly through a social message motivation. 00:58:47.711 --> 00:58:50.731 I think they were realizing that they just had a lot of international passengers 00:58:50.731 --> 00:58:51.941 who kind of wanted to see these films. 00:58:52.391 --> 00:58:57.021 And suddenly you had all these movies about issues in the Arabic world and 00:58:57.021 --> 00:58:59.651 issues in India and issues in Thailand. 00:58:59.891 --> 00:59:04.251 That you just, and even if only a certain fraction of the, of 00:59:04.251 --> 00:59:06.391 the passengers are watching them. 00:59:06.861 --> 00:59:09.171 It's still a much greater group. 00:59:09.731 --> 00:59:13.461 Than would have been in traditional quote unquote, art house cinema. 00:59:15.001 --> 00:59:16.831 Diana Elbaum: But it's whether the cinema will take it. 00:59:16.841 --> 00:59:20.301 That's another another door to open or not. 00:59:20.401 --> 00:59:23.281 I'd rather not because it's very complex, but you're right. 00:59:23.281 --> 00:59:24.331 Then I would, I did. 00:59:24.371 --> 00:59:29.511 I know when I fly to Ethiopian airline, wherever I go, I fly to Qatar airways. 00:59:29.861 --> 00:59:32.661 Oh, I flew right now, a lot to Canada. 00:59:34.561 --> 00:59:38.111 I've been enjoying seeing films that I would never see anywhere else. 00:59:38.481 --> 00:59:41.331 So it's not the best condition, of course, because the headphones are awful. 00:59:41.351 --> 00:59:45.741 But it's still it's still some way to discover, instead of looking 00:59:45.741 --> 00:59:49.341 again at an American film, or, you know, something that you've heard of. 00:59:49.791 --> 00:59:52.761 And just take the time, because you're stuck in the airplane anyway. 00:59:52.921 --> 00:59:54.121 But I would still. 00:59:54.441 --> 00:59:59.301 Tell you try to, you know, the big screen is a unique experience, but I just want 00:59:59.431 --> 01:00:03.221 to address the second question you asked me regarding how do you sell a film. 01:00:03.551 --> 01:00:08.201 So basically the way it's structured is that not everybody can do the good job. 01:00:08.461 --> 01:00:08.871 Right. 01:00:09.141 --> 01:00:11.691 So, The world of selling is a world apart. 01:00:12.271 --> 01:00:15.171 So you basically there are a lot of companies that are selling films. 01:00:15.671 --> 01:00:21.981 And those, those, and they're actually interesting enough have dedicated 01:00:21.981 --> 01:00:23.561 person per region of the world. 01:00:24.031 --> 01:00:27.321 So if somebody sells a film in Europe, if you have a sales agent that they call 01:00:27.331 --> 01:00:31.451 that sells film in Europe will not be able to sell a film in Asia, because it's all 01:00:31.451 --> 01:00:34.631 through connection and who do you know and what kind of film work, what kind of 01:00:34.631 --> 01:00:36.881 film didn't work in a specific region. 01:00:37.371 --> 01:00:43.371 So when you go and shop, quote, unquote, for a sales agent for your film, it 01:00:43.371 --> 01:00:49.671 depends on the genre, whether it's kids film, horror, romance you know, art house 01:00:49.801 --> 01:00:54.731 and, you know, name, you know, action, or you name all the genre of the films. 01:00:54.731 --> 01:00:58.851 Do you would have dedicated sales agent for either the genre? 01:00:59.851 --> 01:01:04.361 And if it's more of a kind of social drama, then. 01:01:04.916 --> 01:01:09.226 They will tell you this, you know, we can see it work here and there. 01:01:10.481 --> 01:01:12.941 They will actually, they know so well the market. 01:01:12.951 --> 01:01:16.441 They have the pearls, they have, you know, they have the pearls of the market. 01:01:16.441 --> 01:01:21.521 They know exactly what sells where, how, how much, and everything. 01:01:21.831 --> 01:01:24.621 Those guys are, those guys, sorry. 01:01:24.886 --> 01:01:28.666 those people, a master of the world in knowing what's 01:01:28.666 --> 01:01:30.066 happening and how does it work. 01:01:30.346 --> 01:01:34.946 Of course for Art House Film, the first step necessary to make it 01:01:34.946 --> 01:01:39.776 happen is a A list, what we call in our language, a A list festival. 01:01:40.126 --> 01:01:43.686 So A list festival is, it's, there are very few of them. 01:01:43.986 --> 01:01:49.276 So you can, it's Busan in Korea, it's Cannes Film Festival. 01:01:49.956 --> 01:01:54.486 It's Venice Film Festival, San Sebastian in Spain, Film Festival, 01:01:54.506 --> 01:01:56.816 and there's probably a few others. 01:01:57.476 --> 01:01:59.836 Interesting enough, none of them in North America. 01:02:00.516 --> 01:02:00.846 Not Sundance? 01:02:02.186 --> 01:02:02.736 Sundance. 01:02:02.736 --> 01:02:03.836 I'm not sure it's a list. 01:02:04.496 --> 01:02:05.246 I'm not sure. 01:02:05.426 --> 01:02:06.156 It's very specific. 01:02:06.156 --> 01:02:08.826 It's a world classification. 01:02:09.286 --> 01:02:14.776 But once you have your film in competition or a sidebar competition 01:02:15.186 --> 01:02:18.986 in those festival, the eyes of the world are on those films. 01:02:19.356 --> 01:02:24.656 So just to give you an appreciation of how complex it is. 01:02:25.126 --> 01:02:27.806 We have a film this year in competition in Venice. 01:02:28.491 --> 01:02:29.701 So it's upcoming in a month. 01:02:29.981 --> 01:02:31.211 The film is called Green Border. 01:02:31.211 --> 01:02:35.741 It's a Polish Belgian French Czech co production. 01:02:36.701 --> 01:02:41.121 It's based, it's a beautiful film by veteran filmmaker Agnieszka Holland. 01:02:42.291 --> 01:02:47.371 And when Alberto Barbera, the head of the Venice Film Festival, announced the 01:02:47.371 --> 01:02:52.711 lineup of this year, he actually mentioned that he watched more than 5, 000 films. 01:02:53.311 --> 01:02:58.111 And they are make, maybe taking for the entire not only the competition, but 01:02:58.121 --> 01:03:03.731 the sidebar, the special screenings, and all that, they maybe take 80 films. 01:03:05.301 --> 01:03:10.571 So, The level does, that's why then all the eyes for the good or 01:03:10.571 --> 01:03:14.401 the worse, because I had filming the film festival in Cannes or in 01:03:14.401 --> 01:03:18.351 competition, they should have never get there because they get destroyed. 01:03:18.861 --> 01:03:21.831 But all the eyes are focused on those films and you know that 01:03:21.831 --> 01:03:23.611 those films will have more sales. 01:03:24.221 --> 01:03:27.731 Especially for the arthouse, again, I'm not talking about Netflix films, and I'm 01:03:27.731 --> 01:03:32.671 not talking about the Amazon films, and I'm also little, not that much talking 01:03:32.681 --> 01:03:36.311 about the American films, but for the European and non European, because we're 01:03:36.311 --> 01:03:40.511 not the only one in the world, there are African, Asian, South American films. 01:03:42.061 --> 01:03:48.301 Those, being able to be selected in one of those festivals is essential for the film. 01:03:49.256 --> 01:03:52.816 Rupert Isaacson: So, presumably, it must be rather difficult to get your 01:03:52.816 --> 01:03:54.216 film into one of these festivals. 01:03:54.226 --> 01:03:55.066 How do you do that? 01:03:55.606 --> 01:03:56.996 Diana Elbaum: Well, just make good films. 01:03:58.856 --> 01:03:59.186 Yeah. 01:03:59.726 --> 01:04:00.496 Rupert Isaacson: How do you submit? 01:04:00.506 --> 01:04:01.906 What's the submission process? 01:04:03.181 --> 01:04:03.781 Gatekeepers. 01:04:03.781 --> 01:04:04.501 How do you get past the 01:04:04.501 --> 01:04:05.161 Diana Elbaum: gatekeepers? 01:04:05.371 --> 01:04:07.891 Well, sales agent is a gate, a sales agent. 01:04:07.891 --> 01:04:08.341 At that gate. 01:04:08.401 --> 01:04:12.211 Gatekeeper is the, the artistic director of the festivals that are gatekeepers. 01:04:12.271 --> 01:04:12.421 Mm-Hmm. 01:04:12.841 --> 01:04:16.711 . It's really, I mean, I have country example of amazing film 01:04:16.711 --> 01:04:18.241 that were never in festivals. 01:04:18.241 --> 01:04:19.416 Sometime they also miss. 01:04:20.346 --> 01:04:25.006 I can think about a Belgian film was called in English broke man, my, 01:04:25.186 --> 01:04:29.816 my brain is, is is on the verge of collapsing in French, it was called 01:04:29.866 --> 01:04:32.256 Alabama Monroe, but it's not in French. 01:04:32.316 --> 01:04:39.706 The original title is Broken Circle Breakdown, a beautiful, beautiful film 01:04:39.706 --> 01:04:41.206 that film went through the cracks. 01:04:41.961 --> 01:04:46.381 Of every festival, but it was an amazing sales agent, a German 01:04:46.381 --> 01:04:48.021 sales agent called Match Factory. 01:04:48.321 --> 01:04:52.641 And they managed to turn it around in Berlin where they did, 01:04:52.771 --> 01:04:55.191 it's a based on country music. 01:04:55.191 --> 01:04:59.821 So they had the country music band coming and then get people interested in it. 01:04:59.871 --> 01:05:03.321 And of course, the director had made a huge bus and can with 01:05:03.321 --> 01:05:07.731 this previous film whose poster was a lot of men naked on bikes. 01:05:08.271 --> 01:05:10.911 And so they had the men, naked men on bikes. 01:05:10.911 --> 01:05:14.331 They're actually the actors riding their bikes on the croisette. 01:05:14.361 --> 01:05:16.081 So he was known for the first film. 01:05:16.081 --> 01:05:21.401 So it was not like a new upcomer, but that film wasn't selected in 01:05:21.401 --> 01:05:26.051 any festival, not at least it became afterwards, it became like a huge event. 01:05:26.071 --> 01:05:28.201 So it's marketing slash. 01:05:28.906 --> 01:05:30.196 Great concept. 01:05:30.196 --> 01:05:31.296 Where should the film go? 01:05:31.326 --> 01:05:32.796 That's what the sales agent do. 01:05:32.826 --> 01:05:34.496 This film is good for this festival. 01:05:34.506 --> 01:05:35.066 It's not good. 01:05:35.356 --> 01:05:38.966 It's going to get killed in this festival or it's too small for this festival. 01:05:39.266 --> 01:05:44.556 So it's a whole continuous conversation we have with this so important part 01:05:44.556 --> 01:05:46.056 of getting a film to the market. 01:05:46.286 --> 01:05:47.476 And it starts at script. 01:05:48.326 --> 01:05:53.256 Usually you get your sales agent at the script level and they will say yes or no, 01:05:53.256 --> 01:05:58.446 but those that say yes, then they will see the, the, the cut, the editing cut. 01:05:58.796 --> 01:06:04.516 And then they will work with us, with production director on the, on the 01:06:04.516 --> 01:06:08.646 communication, the marketing, the poster and where it's best placed. 01:06:08.876 --> 01:06:09.496 Sales agent will 01:06:09.496 --> 01:06:12.546 Rupert Isaacson: come in before you've actually shot the movie 01:06:12.786 --> 01:06:13.986 on the basis of the script. 01:06:14.491 --> 01:06:16.281 Diana Elbaum: Well, yeah, there are two reasons for that. 01:06:16.291 --> 01:06:19.371 Once they used to be able, and they still bring a lot of money, 01:06:19.401 --> 01:06:23.201 they can bring private equity, they can pre sell to territories. 01:06:23.241 --> 01:06:28.211 Let's say I have a film my sales agent loves, it's a great subject and then 01:06:28.221 --> 01:06:32.591 we're going to go and pre sale to the UK, and we're going to, we could pre 01:06:32.591 --> 01:06:34.265 sale to the US, and that money will 01:06:34.265 --> 01:06:36.291 Rupert Isaacson: When you say pre sale, you're talking to distribution. 01:06:36.601 --> 01:06:38.211 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, sorry, to distributor. 01:06:38.211 --> 01:06:41.971 And the pre sale notion is that they buy on script. 01:06:43.036 --> 01:06:43.456 Okay. 01:06:43.946 --> 01:06:45.476 Rupert Isaacson: They don't buy It's like a bit like a 01:06:45.476 --> 01:06:47.976 publisher buying on a proposal. 01:06:48.476 --> 01:06:48.756 Yes. 01:06:49.126 --> 01:06:49.506 Okay. 01:06:49.556 --> 01:06:49.966 Okay. 01:06:50.126 --> 01:06:50.826 That I understand. 01:06:51.126 --> 01:06:51.536 But then you'd 01:06:51.556 --> 01:06:52.316 Diana Elbaum: have to package. 01:06:52.376 --> 01:06:55.206 I mean, they just don't read the script and say we want it. 01:06:55.216 --> 01:06:58.726 They want to know who are the actors, who's the, the cameraman. 01:06:58.916 --> 01:06:59.616 You have to have 01:06:59.616 --> 01:07:01.586 Rupert Isaacson: good actors and a director attached. 01:07:01.786 --> 01:07:02.346 Yeah, of 01:07:02.346 --> 01:07:02.826 Diana Elbaum: course. 01:07:03.906 --> 01:07:06.446 It's the packaging, what we call the packaging of the film. 01:07:06.896 --> 01:07:13.106 So this is an extremely important part of the way the film circulates, and the 01:07:13.116 --> 01:07:18.216 fact that you either see them on Netflix when it's not an original, or Amazon or 01:07:18.286 --> 01:07:21.446 Apple, and or you see it in the theater. 01:07:21.971 --> 01:07:28.031 That's because behind that, before the theater, there's a local distributor, but 01:07:28.261 --> 01:07:33.351 the local distributor then gets in touch with the sales agent to be able to get 01:07:33.351 --> 01:07:37.571 the film and then this, hopefully, what you hope for, is a bid war on the film. 01:07:37.571 --> 01:07:39.271 How much are you going to, how much are you going to pay? 01:07:40.461 --> 01:07:45.981 That the money then goes back to the investors originally and then to me. 01:07:46.661 --> 01:07:47.021 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:07:47.121 --> 01:07:54.181 So, in terms of Getting all of these people attached. 01:07:54.181 --> 01:07:58.411 You've got, you've got to have your director, you've got to have some actors 01:07:58.581 --> 01:07:59.741 attached before we can go to the film. 01:08:00.531 --> 01:08:01.231 It's interesting. 01:08:01.251 --> 01:08:02.361 It comes back down. 01:08:03.011 --> 01:08:03.781 Look at my notes. 01:08:03.781 --> 01:08:08.711 It you said script where you began at the beginning of this interview, 01:08:08.721 --> 01:08:10.101 which is storytelling, right? 01:08:10.151 --> 01:08:12.181 If the story is not sound. 01:08:12.821 --> 01:08:20.291 If the script is not amazingly compelling, then presumably these people 01:08:20.291 --> 01:08:21.781 will not attach themselves, right? 01:08:21.801 --> 01:08:25.341 So the script must be, at the end of the day, the most important thing. 01:08:25.761 --> 01:08:28.881 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, it's script and it's a vision. 01:08:29.461 --> 01:08:36.611 How it will be made, and it's an interesting question. 01:08:39.031 --> 01:08:43.421 Yeah, it's a combination of, it's an alignment of it's an alignment. 01:08:43.651 --> 01:08:45.321 Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. 01:08:45.981 --> 01:08:47.041 It's the right script. 01:08:48.351 --> 01:08:52.081 With the right director and the right actors, 01:08:54.001 --> 01:08:56.111 Rupert Isaacson: but without the script, those, that director 01:08:56.141 --> 01:08:56.811 and those actors, there's 01:08:57.221 --> 01:08:57.781 Diana Elbaum: nothing. 01:08:58.091 --> 01:08:58.351 Yeah. 01:08:58.751 --> 01:08:59.911 The story does nothing. 01:09:00.081 --> 01:09:00.391 So the, 01:09:00.401 --> 01:09:03.011 Rupert Isaacson: so the, the, the raw material is always, always the 01:09:03.011 --> 01:09:03.451 Diana Elbaum: story. 01:09:03.671 --> 01:09:03.991 Yeah. 01:09:04.721 --> 01:09:05.691 And the raw material. 01:09:05.691 --> 01:09:06.241 What's funny. 01:09:06.271 --> 01:09:07.561 Maybe you're listening. 01:09:07.771 --> 01:09:10.741 Listener will not know, but I'm just going to tell the truth. 01:09:10.771 --> 01:09:12.671 That is so weird for. 01:09:13.186 --> 01:09:18.026 The entire world and you know it better than I do referred is the fact that 01:09:18.036 --> 01:09:24.336 the we always think about filming and filming and the production of a film, 01:09:24.356 --> 01:09:26.596 but the writing of a script takes years. 01:09:26.786 --> 01:09:27.986 Yeah, absolutely. 01:09:28.146 --> 01:09:31.696 And actually the shorter periods in the whole process of 01:09:31.696 --> 01:09:33.276 making a film is the shooting. 01:09:34.376 --> 01:09:39.756 Yeah, because shooting is usually in Europe is around 35 to 40 days for a film 01:09:39.906 --> 01:09:44.706 could go to 60 of course it can go to much, much higher number of days depending 01:09:44.706 --> 01:09:49.486 on the film, but the post production meaning the editing and the VFX and 01:09:49.486 --> 01:09:54.466 the music and the sound and the putting the film together, which is a lot of. 01:09:54.781 --> 01:09:59.431 Technical steps after that can take, you know, almost a year for more complex film 01:09:59.731 --> 01:10:04.531 usually takes nine months, but the writing of the script is something that can take 01:10:05.571 --> 01:10:12.361 a long time and, and on average, when you have an idea or you have, because I'm 01:10:12.361 --> 01:10:16.501 not always starting on script, I'm also either on a book, as you heard, and I'm 01:10:16.501 --> 01:10:24.311 still doing that and and Or just an idea, an article, a podcast now it, it, it can 01:10:24.311 --> 01:10:30.431 take, you know, the average for a film to be made in the right circumstances 01:10:30.431 --> 01:10:31.861 is around four to five years. 01:10:32.661 --> 01:10:36.401 So that's why when you're saying, you know, making a few films at the same time 01:10:36.401 --> 01:10:38.321 is because you have to make a living also. 01:10:38.741 --> 01:10:44.611 And and so there's no other option for producer and which also shows the 01:10:44.981 --> 01:10:47.821 extremely complex work of directors. 01:10:48.336 --> 01:10:52.996 Because they're only attached to maybe one or two films or one TV series and a film. 01:10:53.026 --> 01:10:58.276 So, it, the process is extremely long to get from start 01:10:58.276 --> 01:10:58.686 Rupert Isaacson: to finish. 01:10:58.716 --> 01:11:00.836 So how do you get paid as a producer? 01:11:00.936 --> 01:11:06.706 If, if everything is speculative and it's going to take four to five years from 01:11:06.706 --> 01:11:12.186 conception to execution, and that's before you've even sold the thing, how on earth 01:11:12.216 --> 01:11:15.051 can you pay the rent in the meantime? 01:11:15.421 --> 01:11:15.631 So, 01:11:15.631 --> 01:11:18.341 Diana Elbaum: there's, there's a few, there's, I mean, depending 01:11:18.341 --> 01:11:19.661 on where you are in your career. 01:11:19.661 --> 01:11:21.431 So, there's a few a few things. 01:11:21.941 --> 01:11:23.881 As I mentioned, they were, we are in Europe. 01:11:23.881 --> 01:11:27.621 So there's the subsidy that allows you to get some money for the development. 01:11:27.631 --> 01:11:30.581 What we call the development is actually the process of writing. 01:11:31.121 --> 01:11:35.221 Usually that money goes to the director actually, and never to the producer, 01:11:35.221 --> 01:11:38.101 which is historically like that. 01:11:38.261 --> 01:11:39.281 And that's the way it is. 01:11:39.501 --> 01:11:41.371 Then you can find partners. 01:11:41.931 --> 01:11:47.251 To partner with and, and you can get private equity for the development. 01:11:47.251 --> 01:11:50.921 It's rare, but you can still get it if somebody really believes into the story. 01:11:51.401 --> 01:11:57.271 But basically the way producers make a living mainly is actually by filming. 01:11:58.071 --> 01:11:59.651 So you put together a budget. 01:11:59.711 --> 01:12:02.741 Once you have a script, you have to budget it. 01:12:03.321 --> 01:12:04.691 So you put together a budget. 01:12:05.266 --> 01:12:09.196 How many days of shooting, how many extras, how many location, where 01:12:09.196 --> 01:12:10.566 is it going to be shot, et cetera. 01:12:10.886 --> 01:12:16.536 Once you have the budget, usually producer keep, you know, are 01:12:16.546 --> 01:12:20.056 budgeting themselves at around 17 percent of the cost of the film. 01:12:20.786 --> 01:12:24.256 The 17 percent are divided and it's very regulated, so we can't 01:12:24.266 --> 01:12:26.397 really, Germany will be much less. 01:12:26.397 --> 01:12:30.436 Germany would be 10%, France is, if I'm, 12%. 01:12:30.706 --> 01:12:34.956 It's for a country, it's a very regulated because we're working with public funding. 01:12:35.691 --> 01:12:37.961 So it's very regulated. 01:12:38.311 --> 01:12:41.621 So the 17 percent is 10 percent for producer, which means production 01:12:41.621 --> 01:12:43.311 company is 7 percent for overheads. 01:12:43.421 --> 01:12:46.931 Like, you know, the back office, my accountant, my financial 01:12:46.971 --> 01:12:50.511 director, you know, my assistant are all paid out of that. 01:12:51.501 --> 01:12:54.821 More often than not, you will hear a lot of European producers 01:12:54.831 --> 01:12:56.001 say, well, I'll never get that. 01:12:56.051 --> 01:12:58.841 Of course you never, because you're never sure you're going to get the amount, 01:12:58.861 --> 01:13:00.431 total amount of the budget you need. 01:13:01.021 --> 01:13:05.481 So more often than not, they reinvest virtually that went 01:13:05.481 --> 01:13:07.411 into the finance of the film. 01:13:08.141 --> 01:13:12.161 So once you finance the film, so you have a lot of partners, so it's 01:13:12.161 --> 01:13:16.121 like a cake and you divide your cake and everybody get a share according 01:13:16.121 --> 01:13:18.441 to what they put except exception. 01:13:18.451 --> 01:13:22.061 The exception is private equity, which kind of serve itself before and 01:13:22.061 --> 01:13:23.571 a little more than everybody else. 01:13:23.901 --> 01:13:27.341 You have to make sure you still have some crumbs left at the end of the day. 01:13:28.101 --> 01:13:30.511 And then and then the film goes out. 01:13:31.741 --> 01:13:32.881 And the film is sold. 01:13:33.241 --> 01:13:36.901 So the money comes back to you on that level. 01:13:37.951 --> 01:13:42.031 Now, the fact that I'm making, I've made a lot of films, there's still 01:13:42.031 --> 01:13:47.511 money on, on, on coming, incoming money from all the films, not all of them, 01:13:47.511 --> 01:13:48.971 but a lot of films that I've made. 01:13:49.281 --> 01:13:54.306 So after a few years and starting to have what we call a slate of films 01:13:54.806 --> 01:13:58.556 you start to generate your film, start to generate money that come back to 01:13:58.646 --> 01:14:03.196 you and then you reinvest those film, you reinvest that money in further 01:14:03.196 --> 01:14:05.306 project in buying IP and all that. 01:14:05.686 --> 01:14:06.936 So the equilibrium 01:14:07.536 --> 01:14:08.736 Rupert Isaacson: intellectual property. 01:14:09.126 --> 01:14:10.796 I don't 01:14:10.796 --> 01:14:11.046 Diana Elbaum: know. 01:14:11.086 --> 01:14:11.316 Right. 01:14:11.356 --> 01:14:11.546 Yeah. 01:14:12.596 --> 01:14:16.536 So the, the equilibrium is really to make sure that you pay your rent. 01:14:16.776 --> 01:14:20.926 And also when the company grows, make sure that you pay your staff. 01:14:21.366 --> 01:14:21.596 Yeah. 01:14:21.776 --> 01:14:27.466 So your business model is changing, obviously, because it's not anymore. 01:14:27.466 --> 01:14:31.136 One person is maybe two, three at times, much more than that. 01:14:31.536 --> 01:14:33.266 My latest company, we were 12. 01:14:33.666 --> 01:14:38.426 So the pressure it puts on you to bring bigger project, to make more 01:14:38.426 --> 01:14:42.286 margin, to make sure that they're more in tune with what the market 01:14:42.536 --> 01:14:47.486 wants, shifts your way of looking at the stories you're going to develop. 01:14:47.696 --> 01:14:49.216 You cannot go to the first. 01:14:50.506 --> 01:14:54.616 Like I've done so many times and there are still, you know, my, 01:14:57.626 --> 01:15:01.456 unfortunately for a lot of people, but fortunately for me and unfortunately 01:15:01.456 --> 01:15:04.146 for whatever reason, but you can understand what I'm getting at. 01:15:04.576 --> 01:15:06.956 I'm still going to go after the first thing from Peru. 01:15:07.846 --> 01:15:11.576 Where I'm still going to go because those are the stories that I love, but 01:15:11.576 --> 01:15:13.476 I have to compensate it with comedies. 01:15:13.536 --> 01:15:14.706 I really love comedies. 01:15:14.716 --> 01:15:18.956 So I'm doing, and comedies, I'm not even looking at telling them around the world. 01:15:18.956 --> 01:15:23.816 Comedies don't sell well, but they do bring audience in my home, in my country. 01:15:24.216 --> 01:15:27.276 So I've done a lot of comedies, which are not artists, but I 01:15:27.276 --> 01:15:31.076 think comedy is another, another way of being, of telling stories. 01:15:31.076 --> 01:15:32.116 And I really love that. 01:15:32.556 --> 01:15:35.086 But I, so I, I really juggle. 01:15:35.451 --> 01:15:37.641 Between what's, where is my heart? 01:15:37.691 --> 01:15:38.671 Where is my pocket? 01:15:39.971 --> 01:15:44.741 And that's how you build basically the film you're going to go after. 01:15:44.761 --> 01:15:46.091 It's a business sense. 01:15:46.251 --> 01:15:47.931 It's just business modeling. 01:15:48.361 --> 01:15:48.781 It's right. 01:15:48.781 --> 01:15:49.041 And when 01:15:49.041 --> 01:15:51.311 Rupert Isaacson: you say that the films generate income after they be 01:15:51.341 --> 01:15:55.341 made, presumably that's because rights in different areas of the world get 01:15:55.341 --> 01:16:02.991 sold rights to new online streaming things, rights to television rights. 01:16:04.426 --> 01:16:04.796 Okay. 01:16:04.806 --> 01:16:05.396 Airlines. 01:16:05.396 --> 01:16:05.646 Right. 01:16:05.646 --> 01:16:05.876 Right. 01:16:05.876 --> 01:16:10.766 So, and that these things get sold gradually over some years after the 01:16:10.766 --> 01:16:15.496 initial film distribution in, for say, cinema or whatever has been sold, right? 01:16:15.496 --> 01:16:19.026 So that you can, you can keep selling that film to different 01:16:19.636 --> 01:16:22.316 areas for a decade or more. 01:16:22.846 --> 01:16:23.236 Yeah, well, 01:16:23.236 --> 01:16:29.586 Diana Elbaum: the lifespan of a film, unless it's a super master film or a 01:16:29.586 --> 01:16:35.216 cult film, becomes a cult film, or is a winner of those A list festivals, 01:16:35.236 --> 01:16:41.636 Golden Bear, Pandora you know, or A Lion in Venice the lifespan on the 01:16:41.636 --> 01:16:43.656 market is maybe two to three years. 01:16:44.031 --> 01:16:44.311 Yeah. 01:16:44.421 --> 01:16:48.731 So I have a few that I've outlived that because they became cults without, you 01:16:48.731 --> 01:16:50.101 know, you're not making a cult film. 01:16:50.321 --> 01:16:52.441 It's the audience who decide it's cult. 01:16:52.831 --> 01:16:57.871 But yeah, otherwise, so it's, it's really the balancing act that it's so complex 01:16:58.541 --> 01:17:04.141 in this world that for any entrepreneur, but especially in our world, balancing 01:17:04.181 --> 01:17:09.431 act between Keep on being keep on doing the things that you're good at and 01:17:09.431 --> 01:17:14.341 defending voices that might not have an outlet and keep on making films 01:17:14.341 --> 01:17:16.071 that allow you to keep on doing that. 01:17:16.101 --> 01:17:20.531 So it's always been oscillating between the two as far as I'm concerned 01:17:20.571 --> 01:17:22.281 and the films I've made always. 01:17:23.151 --> 01:17:27.681 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, we left you last in the year 2000 with 01:17:27.791 --> 01:17:31.291 this film, A Couch in New York, which was a commercial break. 01:17:31.321 --> 01:17:35.061 But as you said, also, oddly enough, a film about neurodivergence. 01:17:35.101 --> 01:17:36.666 No, that was Thomas in Love. 01:17:36.666 --> 01:17:38.291 That was Thomas in Love, yes. 01:17:38.651 --> 01:17:42.821 Well, right, although I imagine that the Couch in New York character too, you're 01:17:42.821 --> 01:17:47.261 dealing with this idea of the, you know, the crusty, fusty person who's, you know, 01:17:47.261 --> 01:17:51.406 not, lucky in love, da da da da da, which these days we probably call that person 01:17:51.406 --> 01:17:55.116 perhaps Asperger's or, you know, somewhere on the autism spectrum, because back then 01:17:55.306 --> 01:17:57.136 we weren't using that sort of language. 01:17:58.336 --> 01:18:05.796 You, you said yes, you know, every, every film becomes a political act 01:18:05.806 --> 01:18:10.571 to some degree because of the way it affects how people look at social things 01:18:10.571 --> 01:18:13.831 that can affect policy, for example, like the story you told in South 01:18:13.831 --> 01:18:15.781 Sweden when Saab collapsed and so on. 01:18:16.301 --> 01:18:19.711 Yeah, I do know that activism is dear to your heart. 01:18:19.711 --> 01:18:23.121 And you mentioned a little bit earlier that you've been back and forthing to 01:18:23.121 --> 01:18:27.671 Canada, and you've also been making other films in other parts of the world 01:18:27.671 --> 01:18:28.711 that have to do with social issues. 01:18:29.051 --> 01:18:33.751 So, where does it go for you after Thomas in Love? 01:18:33.801 --> 01:18:34.181 And, 01:18:34.261 --> 01:18:38.051 Diana Elbaum: so I'm making a lot of film and I'm, I'm giving a try documentaries. 01:18:38.071 --> 01:18:39.201 I'm not very good at it. 01:18:39.371 --> 01:18:44.731 I think I have too much perversion for I know really wrong term. 01:18:45.151 --> 01:18:47.021 I think I, I think I have a hard time. 01:18:47.021 --> 01:18:48.511 I just want to change the world. 01:18:48.511 --> 01:18:51.161 So documentary is too much in my face, but I love them. 01:18:51.241 --> 01:18:52.021 Absolutely. 01:18:52.361 --> 01:18:56.601 And I'm like, You know, we had those discussion before that just amazing 01:18:56.651 --> 01:18:58.801 and I just don't get to feel for it. 01:18:58.881 --> 01:19:01.871 I don't think I'm the right person for documentaries and 01:19:02.151 --> 01:19:03.631 believe you me every two minutes. 01:19:03.631 --> 01:19:05.061 I have an idea for documentary. 01:19:05.091 --> 01:19:08.201 So anyway, so I'm trying that. 01:19:08.621 --> 01:19:13.151 I'm doing a lot of co production with France and those are the reverse where 01:19:13.161 --> 01:19:14.931 French people won the Belgian money. 01:19:14.981 --> 01:19:17.701 So I'm like working like a mad person. 01:19:18.231 --> 01:19:18.761 I have, 01:19:19.055 --> 01:19:21.065 At the end of the 90s, I have 01:19:21.749 --> 01:19:26.989 a personal issue, health issue, that I have to stop for two years, not 01:19:26.989 --> 01:19:28.339 sure I'm going to be able to get back. 01:19:29.189 --> 01:19:32.779 And that was quite a traumatic time personally, so I had to take 01:19:32.779 --> 01:19:35.299 like a year break around 96, 97. 01:19:36.424 --> 01:19:38.234 It lasted actually more than that. 01:19:38.244 --> 01:19:38.574 Sorry. 01:19:38.584 --> 01:19:43.944 It's around 97 to 99 of not being able to work. 01:19:43.944 --> 01:19:48.144 My parents dying one after 10 months apart. 01:19:48.184 --> 01:19:52.034 And also my decision that I was still quite young, I have to 01:19:52.154 --> 01:19:55.264 say, and the decision that maybe the party was a little over. 01:19:55.744 --> 01:19:59.104 of like going right and left, taking a plane here, going there, doing 01:19:59.114 --> 01:20:00.904 this, going to festival, you know. 01:20:01.334 --> 01:20:02.914 And but it wasn't true. 01:20:02.934 --> 01:20:04.264 That's what I thought at the time. 01:20:04.624 --> 01:20:11.544 And so I decided that maybe I had another I had to consider my life. 01:20:12.364 --> 01:20:15.714 So it was a really two year, I had to break down. 01:20:15.754 --> 01:20:16.574 It wasn't a breakdown. 01:20:16.594 --> 01:20:17.964 That was a physical stop. 01:20:18.074 --> 01:20:21.364 I couldn't work, but it wasn't, you know, it was physical. 01:20:21.404 --> 01:20:25.774 It wasn't anything mental or, you know, kind of a burnout or whatever. 01:20:25.994 --> 01:20:26.554 Not that. 01:20:26.954 --> 01:20:30.504 Then I had another break 10 years after we might get into it. 01:20:30.944 --> 01:20:35.174 But and then I've decided my life was maybe not. 01:20:35.684 --> 01:20:38.534 I was only centered about those things that I was making all 01:20:38.534 --> 01:20:39.824 those films that I was making. 01:20:40.344 --> 01:20:44.604 And I decided then that I would go and adopt my first child. 01:20:45.144 --> 01:20:48.734 So that was a big, big, big, and I was still working. 01:20:48.764 --> 01:20:52.904 I went back to work and, but it gives you another kind for anybody, anybody who's 01:20:52.904 --> 01:20:57.744 a parent knows when a child comes, how much energy gives you to do even more 01:20:58.824 --> 01:20:59.404 Rupert Isaacson: wonderful. 01:20:59.684 --> 01:21:01.074 I have no idea what you mean, Diana. 01:21:01.104 --> 01:21:01.354 Yeah. 01:21:01.464 --> 01:21:01.654 Yeah. 01:21:01.874 --> 01:21:02.244 Diana Elbaum: Yeah. 01:21:02.634 --> 01:21:04.704 It's just like, you know, this energy. 01:21:04.714 --> 01:21:11.904 And then I, I got another amazing, um, I'm not really sure I'm on timeline, but 01:21:11.904 --> 01:21:18.694 I think it was around those same time that I was waiting at the taxi station 01:21:18.694 --> 01:21:23.754 in Brussels, at the train station, and it was pouring rain, as it usually is. 01:21:24.224 --> 01:21:27.894 And there was this tour that was putting people in taxis, you know, 01:21:27.924 --> 01:21:31.984 because otherwise people would go crazy and start to fight each other. 01:21:32.364 --> 01:21:36.224 And that person was so amazingly funny. 01:21:37.339 --> 01:21:42.079 It was just, it was just sunshine and I just couldn't figure out 01:21:42.119 --> 01:21:45.229 how somebody could be doing that job and be really funny. 01:21:45.229 --> 01:21:49.419 So we engaged in the discussion and I kept on saying to people, no, take that taxi. 01:21:49.459 --> 01:21:49.919 It's fine. 01:21:49.919 --> 01:21:53.309 And I was talking to him and he was like, yeah, I do that, you know, 01:21:53.309 --> 01:21:55.229 but I really want to get into films. 01:21:55.229 --> 01:21:56.989 And it just started like that. 01:21:57.029 --> 01:21:59.219 And he became my biggest hit ever. 01:21:59.779 --> 01:22:04.609 It was a young who he also became a big director. 01:22:05.819 --> 01:22:08.749 Afterwards, we did one film, two films together. 01:22:09.189 --> 01:22:15.339 And he was the, a Belgian Moroccan young kid. 01:22:16.459 --> 01:22:17.049 And... 01:22:18.224 --> 01:22:22.654 So I, I said to him, well, listen, you know, maybe it's our lucky break 01:22:22.654 --> 01:22:25.794 for you and I, if you want, we can keep on having this discussion. 01:22:26.084 --> 01:22:30.564 He took me, he took him a few months to call me back and he came with 01:22:30.564 --> 01:22:37.814 a comedy called the Barons and the Barons, like Kingdom Belgium, then 01:22:37.814 --> 01:22:39.194 the Barons, you know, you have Duke. 01:22:39.194 --> 01:22:39.394 I don't 01:22:39.394 --> 01:22:39.734 Rupert Isaacson: know how it's called. 01:22:39.735 --> 01:22:40.364 Yeah. 01:22:40.364 --> 01:22:40.744 Barons. 01:22:40.744 --> 01:22:40.924 Diana Elbaum: Yeah. 01:22:40.974 --> 01:22:41.154 Yeah. 01:22:41.634 --> 01:22:42.014 Yeah. 01:22:42.274 --> 01:22:50.694 And it was and it was the first time I also had this weirdly enough with 01:22:50.694 --> 01:22:54.814 all my travel and all my storytelling from everybody around the world, they 01:22:54.814 --> 01:22:56.884 went to China, South Africa, whatever. 01:22:57.684 --> 01:23:02.464 All of a sudden I realized that there is a whole community in Belgium, at 01:23:02.464 --> 01:23:08.884 least in Brussels, of Belgian, from Moroccan descent, that had no voice. 01:23:10.969 --> 01:23:19.129 And that was a beautiful moment because we laughed a lot and we cried a lot and it 01:23:19.129 --> 01:23:23.279 was a massive hit, massive, massive hit. 01:23:23.739 --> 01:23:26.869 Everybody went around and I loved it because, you know, when you 01:23:26.869 --> 01:23:28.429 say, how do you sell the film? 01:23:28.429 --> 01:23:29.799 How do you finance the film? 01:23:30.059 --> 01:23:31.119 That was my best. 01:23:32.194 --> 01:23:37.094 ever financing scheme, not because people wanted it because nobody wanted it. 01:23:38.344 --> 01:23:42.354 So I had to find the resources to play against the machine somehow. 01:23:42.824 --> 01:23:47.914 And to have all those executive again, the same one with suits. 01:23:47.914 --> 01:23:51.514 And I come with this project about the Moroccan community in Brussels. 01:23:51.554 --> 01:23:56.019 And they were like, yeah, Well, no, no thanks. 01:23:57.259 --> 01:23:59.139 And I was, so I had to switch. 01:23:59.209 --> 01:24:01.329 I had to understand that I had to outsmart them. 01:24:01.689 --> 01:24:02.729 And I really did it. 01:24:03.049 --> 01:24:04.229 And we did it together. 01:24:04.599 --> 01:24:06.979 And it was just amazing how it went. 01:24:06.979 --> 01:24:12.419 Because that film, being a comedy, went from the cultural pages of the newspaper 01:24:13.069 --> 01:24:15.319 into the society page of the newspaper. 01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:16.699 And that's exactly what you want. 01:24:17.089 --> 01:24:18.709 That's why we call it the crossover. 01:24:19.479 --> 01:24:19.989 Okay. 01:24:21.814 --> 01:24:23.864 Rupert Isaacson: By the way, I've just, I've just, I've just wikied 01:24:23.864 --> 01:24:25.984 it for the listeners, the Barons. 01:24:26.364 --> 01:24:27.094 This sounds great. 01:24:27.704 --> 01:24:31.264 But it does sound like it must've been a hard sell commercially. 01:24:31.704 --> 01:24:34.894 In Brussels three friends lead a life of pleasant apathy. 01:24:35.534 --> 01:24:39.694 They spend their days loafing around in unhurried torpor, bantering with each 01:24:39.694 --> 01:24:44.414 other and adhering to the theory that the fewer steps one takes, the richer 01:24:44.734 --> 01:24:46.894 one's interior, one's interior life. 01:24:48.079 --> 01:24:53.219 But, as is so often the case, when real life crashes unpleasantly into their dream 01:24:53.219 --> 01:24:58.039 world, Hassan, Aziz, and Munir are forced to deal with life, love, and the future. 01:24:58.739 --> 01:24:59.429 This must have been... 01:24:59.429 --> 01:24:59.579 I 01:25:00.149 --> 01:25:04.449 Diana Elbaum: fired the person who wrote that, but no, basically... 01:25:04.639 --> 01:25:05.169 And that wasn't you? 01:25:05.619 --> 01:25:11.679 But you know, basically what it was, it's like the cliché assumption when you see 01:25:11.729 --> 01:25:17.679 three Moroccan kids standing on the wall, they are thieves, except they're not. 01:25:18.514 --> 01:25:20.664 Just society hasn't opened the door to them. 01:25:21.014 --> 01:25:24.194 So the only job they can get is bus driver in the neighborhood. 01:25:24.984 --> 01:25:27.194 And those guys have other, other, other dreams. 01:25:27.614 --> 01:25:30.974 So that's exactly how the pitch went for the, for the financing. 01:25:31.264 --> 01:25:34.754 Because the pitch was, yeah, it's a first film about, you know, the 01:25:34.754 --> 01:25:36.554 young Moroccans that are done. 01:25:36.774 --> 01:25:38.884 The people were like, not even listening to me. 01:25:38.884 --> 01:25:41.634 And you don't even need to, they don't need to say anything. 01:25:41.664 --> 01:25:43.154 I saw the language. 01:25:43.434 --> 01:25:47.004 But when I came with a pitch and say, so what do you say when you see 01:25:47.004 --> 01:25:49.594 five Moroccans in a brand new BMW? 01:25:51.389 --> 01:25:54.209 100 percent of the answers were it's stolen. 01:25:55.689 --> 01:26:01.169 And I was, then my pitch was like anybody, any five people can buy any car. 01:26:02.369 --> 01:26:05.689 The problem with our film is that there are six and there's only five seats. 01:26:07.024 --> 01:26:11.804 It had nothing to do with the story, but then I triggered their attention and 01:26:11.804 --> 01:26:13.484 that's how we started financing the film. 01:26:14.734 --> 01:26:16.694 And it's a really, really funny film. 01:26:16.904 --> 01:26:20.274 It's extremely funny, but it made a whole change. 01:26:20.294 --> 01:26:25.349 And what was delighted, delighting is that, All of a sudden, that 01:26:25.349 --> 01:26:29.389 neighborhood who unfortunately got a worse reputation during the attack, 01:26:29.409 --> 01:26:33.479 which is Molenbeek, it's right next to me where I'm sitting right now, who was 01:26:34.299 --> 01:26:39.279 always where the Moroccan families, is being gentrified now, unfortunately, 01:26:39.299 --> 01:26:45.289 also for that city, but where the Moroccan families were, was unknown. 01:26:45.289 --> 01:26:47.519 It was like, don't go there, you're going to get killed. 01:26:48.984 --> 01:26:54.344 You know, and we change, we put a spotlight on it and say, no, the normal 01:26:54.344 --> 01:26:59.474 people having normal family life and they just, and they just, you know, 01:27:00.184 --> 01:27:02.174 they, they not giving the opportunity. 01:27:02.174 --> 01:27:07.184 There was no representation in the newspaper, in politics, in nowhere. 01:27:07.589 --> 01:27:09.099 of the Maroccan community then. 01:27:09.399 --> 01:27:10.969 And it did make the change. 01:27:11.699 --> 01:27:13.219 So I'm very proud of that one. 01:27:13.229 --> 01:27:14.879 And you see, you make change with comedies. 01:27:14.949 --> 01:27:16.529 I'm a really firm believer in that. 01:27:16.779 --> 01:27:17.359 Absolutely. 01:27:17.359 --> 01:27:18.789 Because it's drama and you don't 01:27:18.789 --> 01:27:19.419 Rupert Isaacson: need tears. 01:27:19.709 --> 01:27:21.029 Yeah, no, absolutely. 01:27:21.029 --> 01:27:24.949 Because what, what is humor, but perspective humor allows you to see 01:27:24.949 --> 01:27:30.759 a situation from the outside and to to put your prejudices aside. 01:27:31.299 --> 01:27:33.019 And it bonds people for sure. 01:27:33.409 --> 01:27:36.039 You know, the, the right joke cracked at the right moment. 01:27:37.119 --> 01:27:38.389 wE'll always relieve tension. 01:27:38.949 --> 01:27:41.249 You know, it's, it's, I agree with you a 01:27:41.249 --> 01:27:43.789 Diana Elbaum: whole heartedly to make people cry. 01:27:43.799 --> 01:27:49.749 It's much harder to make them love, but I saw beautiful view as, you know, as I 01:27:49.749 --> 01:27:52.889 was saying with the couch in New York, I was going to every, every screening, 01:27:52.889 --> 01:27:54.579 which I do actually for all my films. 01:27:55.169 --> 01:27:56.079 And I saw. 01:27:56.904 --> 01:28:01.634 Beautiful scene in theater and that's why I, you know, I'm a firm believer that the 01:28:01.634 --> 01:28:07.214 collective experience of seeing films with other people is essential, is essential. 01:28:07.294 --> 01:28:10.614 Seeing your film on your phone is fine, seeing the film in a plane is fine, 01:28:11.184 --> 01:28:14.924 seeing a film on Netflix is fine, but you will never replace that experience. 01:28:14.984 --> 01:28:15.644 Never. 01:28:15.864 --> 01:28:20.194 And if you were to go only twice a year to the cinema, it's worth it. 01:28:20.574 --> 01:28:24.874 And I saw an amazing scene during those screenings where like older. 01:28:25.454 --> 01:28:30.314 White people would come and were like, the theater was full of like Moroccan kids 01:28:30.374 --> 01:28:32.304 because that was the film for them also. 01:28:32.334 --> 01:28:36.604 The crossover was that at the end of the screening, I saw this old woman, like 01:28:36.804 --> 01:28:41.714 just embracing the young guy next to him, next to her and saying, you know, 01:28:42.024 --> 01:28:44.124 I'm so sorry, we don't know who you are. 01:28:45.364 --> 01:28:46.664 So this is unbeatable. 01:28:47.014 --> 01:28:50.974 This is worth like all the hardship and the hurt and the 01:28:51.374 --> 01:28:52.674 craziness of the business. 01:28:53.059 --> 01:28:53.959 It is worth that. 01:28:54.219 --> 01:28:56.559 Really, frankly, I'm a firm believer in that. 01:28:57.249 --> 01:29:01.729 So, yeah, and so that even, like, then launched even more the company. 01:29:01.989 --> 01:29:04.949 I mean, that we became the company was just, like, booming. 01:29:05.349 --> 01:29:09.379 There was, like, everyday calls to make more films, co production, whatever. 01:29:09.379 --> 01:29:14.769 And so I enjoyed that, that moment till till 2000. 01:29:14.809 --> 01:29:15.499 I think it was... 01:29:16.409 --> 01:29:21.759 My son was then nine, so it must have been 2007, eight, where my best 01:29:21.759 --> 01:29:23.979 friend lost her daughter to leukemia. 01:29:25.289 --> 01:29:28.059 And I remember the eulogy at the church. 01:29:28.529 --> 01:29:31.809 Well, she was in the film business, my friend, or she 01:29:31.809 --> 01:29:33.099 still is in the film business. 01:29:33.559 --> 01:29:37.709 And a very famous director was the godfather of her daughter, Jacob 01:29:37.709 --> 01:29:40.419 Vandermal, who's an amazing person. 01:29:40.759 --> 01:29:44.819 And he gave a eulogy and I came out of there completely shaken. 01:29:46.589 --> 01:29:49.509 The eulogy was basically of all the things we could have done with you. 01:29:49.869 --> 01:29:51.899 All the, all the dreams we could have dreamt. 01:29:52.439 --> 01:29:57.199 And I knew I was really tired by then because we had so much work and the kids 01:29:57.229 --> 01:30:00.509 that I had, I adopted my daughter also. 01:30:00.509 --> 01:30:02.549 And I realized I just didn't have the time. 01:30:02.549 --> 01:30:07.219 And I think to recognize those moments where it's not working for you, where 01:30:07.249 --> 01:30:10.889 everything becomes a burden, where you're not happy with what you do. 01:30:10.889 --> 01:30:15.034 And you probably do a little trap because you're Machine, endless 01:30:15.034 --> 01:30:17.524 machine of producing and producing. 01:30:17.574 --> 01:30:22.564 I had a partner then partner at work and I called him from the car and 01:30:22.564 --> 01:30:25.384 I say, I'm going to take a break and he's going to last a year. 01:30:28.224 --> 01:30:33.404 And and that was June. 01:30:33.434 --> 01:30:35.994 And I left, I left for another year. 01:30:36.004 --> 01:30:38.244 I should have maybe, but I left for nine months and I went 01:30:38.254 --> 01:30:39.534 around the world with my kids. 01:30:39.704 --> 01:30:41.014 Just forgot everything. 01:30:41.664 --> 01:30:44.024 And I say to everybody. 01:30:44.734 --> 01:30:46.244 I am not reachable. 01:30:46.414 --> 01:30:48.724 So I took my two kids and we went. 01:30:49.104 --> 01:30:50.294 Yeah, beautiful trip. 01:30:50.295 --> 01:30:58.454 We went from Europe to Los Angeles to Tahiti to Cook Island, New 01:30:58.454 --> 01:31:02.414 Zealand, Australia, and we finished in South Africa and we toured. 01:31:02.534 --> 01:31:07.684 We just went into the nature barefoot no, like almost no luggage. 01:31:08.299 --> 01:31:13.639 And just, and just took the time to hug trees and be together. 01:31:13.739 --> 01:31:14.689 The kids were small. 01:31:14.699 --> 01:31:15.659 It was really crazy. 01:31:15.659 --> 01:31:17.349 But but I just did it. 01:31:17.439 --> 01:31:19.619 I knew I needed to refill myself. 01:31:20.019 --> 01:31:23.229 Emotionally, I needed to connect with my kids. 01:31:24.194 --> 01:31:28.824 And I needed to not go crazy because I really felt the rabbit 01:31:28.824 --> 01:31:30.394 hole coming really, really fast. 01:31:30.914 --> 01:31:32.204 And I couldn't do it anymore. 01:31:32.494 --> 01:31:37.704 And then when I came back, my partner during that time actually produced a film 01:31:37.714 --> 01:31:44.634 that I was involved with and he took over and I immediately, it's kind of funny. 01:31:44.634 --> 01:31:47.634 I mean, it's funny for me, might not be funny for anyone, but I went 01:31:47.634 --> 01:31:51.744 from barefoot to high heel to go the red carpet in Berlin because we're 01:31:51.744 --> 01:31:53.534 in competition and unannounced. 01:31:55.024 --> 01:31:59.604 And I plunge right back into it, but those he had to serve eight months 01:32:00.244 --> 01:32:05.404 of not working, not thinking I didn't read any book, didn't enter any mail. 01:32:05.794 --> 01:32:09.374 It was early anyway, it was complicated with the mails, like across the world. 01:32:09.374 --> 01:32:14.134 And the phone was barely whatever, you know, it was pre everything's 01:32:14.654 --> 01:32:18.744 fast was just, I think the best thing I did for myself and we need. 01:32:19.154 --> 01:32:19.884 And I, I. 01:32:21.094 --> 01:32:25.984 I'm advising that because I'm teaching now a lot and I'm advising not to take 01:32:25.984 --> 01:32:30.184 a break, but really the mental health issues into the work environment, 01:32:30.234 --> 01:32:33.954 at least in the industry has been overlooked for so many, many years. 01:32:34.224 --> 01:32:39.544 And now it's becoming, of course, front page of, you know, everyone, 01:32:39.724 --> 01:32:41.504 we do need to take care of ourselves. 01:32:41.504 --> 01:32:44.714 And this work can just absorb you a hundred percent. 01:32:45.424 --> 01:32:46.264 Forget who you are. 01:32:46.304 --> 01:32:47.654 It's not, it's worth it. 01:32:48.554 --> 01:32:49.664 Obviously not worth it. 01:32:50.044 --> 01:32:51.884 Rupert Isaacson: But I think it's cyclical, yeah. 01:32:51.884 --> 01:32:57.354 I mean, I think one is required to sometimes be an absolute 01:32:57.354 --> 01:32:59.414 slave and servant of one's work. 01:32:59.444 --> 01:33:02.434 And then one is required sometimes to break from it. 01:33:03.249 --> 01:33:06.139 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, but the world doesn't allow you to do that, you know, 01:33:06.229 --> 01:33:07.949 so you have to do it for yourself. 01:33:07.949 --> 01:33:08.549 Exactly. 01:33:08.559 --> 01:33:12.899 You're gonna say, oh, no, you know what, you are, you know, I mean, some 01:33:12.899 --> 01:33:16.859 countries do that and in the teaching profession, especially go and take 01:33:16.859 --> 01:33:18.459 a sabbatical and we'll pay for it. 01:33:18.699 --> 01:33:18.979 Yeah. 01:33:19.379 --> 01:33:21.539 But otherwise, no, I mean. 01:33:21.709 --> 01:33:22.009 Sure. 01:33:22.259 --> 01:33:26.979 Again, I find myself so privileged every level of my life. 01:33:27.364 --> 01:33:32.144 Not only on the decision, I mean, on the decision taking on the freedom 01:33:32.144 --> 01:33:36.874 I have to do and not to do to, of course, it comes with a lot of 01:33:36.874 --> 01:33:42.064 other things, but on these, those essentials, I feel myself so privileged 01:33:42.824 --> 01:33:44.064 Rupert Isaacson: the self determination. 01:33:44.114 --> 01:33:50.964 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, and I think, I don't think, I think, yeah, I, it's, 01:33:52.904 --> 01:33:58.354 I wish I could it's really what I'm trying to stress out to the younger 01:33:58.724 --> 01:34:00.254 professional coming to the market. 01:34:00.475 --> 01:34:04.284 Is recognized when it doesn't work. 01:34:04.834 --> 01:34:09.514 It recognized when you're hurting and it's not a given it's definitely, and 01:34:09.514 --> 01:34:14.344 depends who you are in which part of the world, which color of skin you have. 01:34:14.749 --> 01:34:18.089 Which believe you have, it's much harder for a lot of people. 01:34:20.099 --> 01:34:25.529 So, yeah, that's, that's that's the, the, the, the, like, and so that's what 01:34:25.529 --> 01:34:29.419 I've been doing from that time I started to teach a lot, because I think it's... 01:34:29.469 --> 01:34:30.299 How did the teaching 01:34:30.309 --> 01:34:31.169 Rupert Isaacson: begin for you? 01:34:31.319 --> 01:34:31.569 Well, 01:34:31.589 --> 01:34:33.339 Diana Elbaum: it became back then, they just called me and 01:34:33.339 --> 01:34:35.099 say, oh, would you like to train? 01:34:35.384 --> 01:34:37.784 And I was like, yeah, I can try, see how it works. 01:34:37.814 --> 01:34:38.754 And I called you. 01:34:39.934 --> 01:34:44.084 So this same workshop I did remember in the 93 or something like that, 01:34:44.094 --> 01:34:46.664 your European entrepreneur of Europe. 01:34:46.674 --> 01:34:47.134 I've heard. 01:34:47.504 --> 01:34:50.754 So they called me and say, well, we're looking for a new, what they call 01:34:50.764 --> 01:34:52.724 group leader or expert or whatever. 01:34:52.724 --> 01:34:56.384 And it's basically taking a group selected. 01:34:56.384 --> 01:34:58.824 They select a group of 15 producer. 01:34:58.834 --> 01:34:59.844 It's actually 50. 01:34:59.894 --> 01:35:03.884 It's divided in four groups and you trade them through a one year. 01:35:04.099 --> 01:35:07.559 And you meet three times during that one year, and they have a lot of 01:35:07.559 --> 01:35:10.719 work to do in between on the project on the companies and everything. 01:35:11.169 --> 01:35:17.199 So I really started in 2007 or 8 or 9 around that period when I 01:35:17.199 --> 01:35:19.309 came back, I think, and I just. 01:35:20.019 --> 01:35:25.599 Like, as much as I love making films, I love that equally, and I'm so, 01:35:25.629 --> 01:35:27.459 again, privileged to be able to do it. 01:35:27.949 --> 01:35:32.889 And still today, so I've been doing training in Europe, and I've been doing 01:35:32.919 --> 01:35:36.459 training in the Caribbean, and I've trained And some universities like 01:35:36.459 --> 01:35:38.619 Sorbonne master and stuff like that. 01:35:39.109 --> 01:35:42.109 But those, but the one I'm training are professional, they're not 01:35:42.119 --> 01:35:45.189 university level, they already professional in the business. 01:35:45.989 --> 01:35:51.264 And and lately I started during COVID, I started, a great program called 01:35:51.264 --> 01:35:56.744 Daba, which is, is is from South Africa and is training African producer. 01:35:57.324 --> 01:36:01.324 And, and, and then lately for the past, also during COVID, I 01:36:01.324 --> 01:36:02.644 started the Canadian program. 01:36:03.044 --> 01:36:08.714 So there and the main program called access for BIPOC producer, 01:36:08.744 --> 01:36:10.374 black indigenous people of color. 01:36:10.694 --> 01:36:16.184 And, and this is like a new revelation for me of being less Eurocentric. 01:36:17.489 --> 01:36:28.169 And being non American and just, um, see how, um, those either the BIPOC 01:36:28.209 --> 01:36:33.099 producer in Canada or the African producer, we can build with them. 01:36:33.129 --> 01:36:36.749 They are the new generation, new business models that they don't 01:36:36.759 --> 01:36:41.849 depend either on what a lot of them call the colony, the colony money. 01:36:42.214 --> 01:36:45.974 Or like the guilt money from the European countries towards, you 01:36:45.974 --> 01:36:47.594 know, African or Canadian films. 01:36:48.134 --> 01:36:53.224 And on the other hand, how the Canadian producer who are from the 01:36:53.224 --> 01:36:57.944 Black, Indigenous and people of color communities can get their voices heard 01:36:58.484 --> 01:37:01.854 when it's so complex to live anyway, as. 01:37:02.714 --> 01:37:03.584 Those communities. 01:37:03.864 --> 01:37:04.204 And so 01:37:04.324 --> 01:37:06.684 Rupert Isaacson: what are they getting their financing from then, if not from 01:37:06.684 --> 01:37:09.784 the old colonial funding mechanisms. 01:37:10.194 --> 01:37:18.694 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, well, I'm, I'm a big fighter to help them raise 01:37:19.154 --> 01:37:22.654 within themselves and within their own community political awareness 01:37:23.134 --> 01:37:25.464 that will allow that policy changes. 01:37:26.444 --> 01:37:31.344 And that allows them country to recognize what I was saying earlier, what we were 01:37:31.344 --> 01:37:35.224 talking earlier regarding Europe and how much does it, how much work does it 01:37:35.254 --> 01:37:40.164 bring, how much recognition does it bring the, the side effects of the industry 01:37:40.164 --> 01:37:45.314 and to really see themselves as part of an industry and not just one film at a 01:37:45.314 --> 01:37:48.284 time, see themselves as as entrepreneur. 01:37:48.934 --> 01:37:50.894 And so there are a lot of other ways. 01:37:50.904 --> 01:37:52.494 There is a lot of charities. 01:37:53.069 --> 01:37:56.499 Of course, and foundation, sorry, the charity term strike 01:37:56.499 --> 01:37:58.599 it foundation in Africa. 01:37:58.599 --> 01:38:03.889 I mean, for sure in Africa, a lot of foundation are around to actually 01:38:04.049 --> 01:38:06.819 Rupert Isaacson: those foundations not effectively colonial, 01:38:07.549 --> 01:38:11.629 Diana Elbaum: not especially, but there's a Very big industry happening. 01:38:11.809 --> 01:38:15.179 One of the thing we need to recognize of this Eurocentric. 01:38:15.199 --> 01:38:20.469 Sometimes people forget is that the African average population and 01:38:20.519 --> 01:38:24.349 Indian, for example, also, but also the South American one, at least 01:38:24.379 --> 01:38:28.539 Africa and India is 70 percent of the population is below 30 years old. 01:38:29.029 --> 01:38:30.639 So it's huge markets. 01:38:31.149 --> 01:38:35.549 It's a huge market and still for independent films, they're looking 01:38:35.549 --> 01:38:36.739 at co production with Europe. 01:38:36.739 --> 01:38:42.469 So yes, do take the money, but also try build another system because 01:38:42.479 --> 01:38:45.439 you are sitting on the biggest growing market in the world. 01:38:46.649 --> 01:38:50.119 And it's not, and it's culture. 01:38:50.549 --> 01:38:53.459 It's not uranium and it's not cobalt. 01:38:55.489 --> 01:38:55.659 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:38:55.659 --> 01:38:58.109 You don't have to chop down a forest or dig it out of the ground 01:38:58.109 --> 01:39:01.459 or exactly children to go into a hole in the ground to make it. 01:39:01.519 --> 01:39:01.839 Yeah. 01:39:02.549 --> 01:39:07.899 Diana Elbaum: And those, so this is really essential for me to, with the knowledge 01:39:07.899 --> 01:39:11.679 I have, with all the mistakes and the failures I've had, because we're speaking 01:39:11.689 --> 01:39:15.749 about, you know, I won't take about all those, but those are learning curves, of 01:39:15.749 --> 01:39:18.489 course, is fail, fail again, fail better. 01:39:18.649 --> 01:39:18.869 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:39:18.869 --> 01:39:20.669 Well, the first film you tried to make didn't get made 01:39:21.439 --> 01:39:27.349 Diana Elbaum: with all my All my experience and my easier connection. 01:39:27.389 --> 01:39:30.269 I'm just telling them that the only difference between them and me is 01:39:30.269 --> 01:39:36.049 I get a no faster on the film, you know, at my age and the experience, 01:39:36.289 --> 01:39:41.359 the no, a fast no is like a savior of the day because then, you know, you're 01:39:41.359 --> 01:39:44.489 not like, like I did with my first. 01:39:44.999 --> 01:39:50.539 Book that I've never made being a nail you know, a nail that doesn't enter the wall. 01:39:50.539 --> 01:39:52.389 I know how the wall is made now. 01:39:52.969 --> 01:39:54.999 And so it's just much easier. 01:39:55.059 --> 01:39:58.539 And when the no final no comes, I also recognize it. 01:39:59.249 --> 01:40:01.729 I'm not, you know, suicidal to that part. 01:40:01.759 --> 01:40:02.999 But in terms of that. 01:40:02.999 --> 01:40:05.329 So this, this part of the this. 01:40:06.054 --> 01:40:09.864 The thing that I'm doing on training is essential for my health. 01:40:10.024 --> 01:40:16.804 I think mental health is also essential for, to just keep the, keep, keep the 01:40:16.804 --> 01:40:20.754 understanding what the new generation, how do they look at what we do? 01:40:21.184 --> 01:40:24.584 Where do you know, how do they express those stories? 01:40:24.944 --> 01:40:30.874 How do they try to bend to the conventional or to the data today 01:40:31.404 --> 01:40:33.014 and tell them there's another way? 01:40:33.829 --> 01:40:36.829 Or at least I'm not telling them and there's another way I make them. 01:40:37.119 --> 01:40:43.229 I just open a little bit another door to make the thing and have experience 01:40:43.229 --> 01:40:48.699 with them another way because of the problem is, you know, is the data we 01:40:48.699 --> 01:40:51.664 are all, you know, know the product of. 01:40:52.244 --> 01:40:56.644 And, and it's really easily you can fall into the trap of saying, Oh, 01:40:56.644 --> 01:41:01.984 well, you know, we've been told by this streamer that that we need to 01:41:01.984 --> 01:41:05.974 go on murder mysteries, but yeah, maybe, but, you know, maybe not. 01:41:06.599 --> 01:41:09.029 maybe another voice will do another circuit. 01:41:09.289 --> 01:41:13.759 So it's, it's, it's the pressure on the younger producers and not 01:41:13.759 --> 01:41:18.599 only producers because of the sales agent and distribution and the whole 01:41:18.939 --> 01:41:23.159 spectrum of the profession within the film industry is extremely, 01:41:23.169 --> 01:41:25.884 extremely complex to navigate today. 01:41:26.234 --> 01:41:30.994 It's really complex because you get information was not an information data. 01:41:31.134 --> 01:41:35.884 It's just in the eye of someone and you actually don't know 01:41:35.884 --> 01:41:37.324 because it's not shared. 01:41:37.934 --> 01:41:41.514 So you, you could be told that's what the audience wants. 01:41:41.824 --> 01:41:43.804 No, I kind of disagree with that. 01:41:44.304 --> 01:41:45.914 And but you know, I'm a free spirit. 01:41:45.914 --> 01:41:49.577 So what are you working on now? 01:41:49.577 --> 01:41:52.617 So I'm working on can I mention it? 01:41:54.037 --> 01:42:00.027 I'm working on your film on your book, and we know how long that's 01:42:00.027 --> 01:42:04.707 been when we say five years, we actually can celebrate a 10 year. 01:42:05.227 --> 01:42:08.237 So, yeah, I'm trying to adapt rapper's book, the horse bug, 01:42:08.257 --> 01:42:09.577 which I fell in love with. 01:42:10.457 --> 01:42:14.737 Because I was horseback riding then and totally fell in love with 01:42:14.797 --> 01:42:18.167 and it's been a long journey and I'm not giving up on this one. 01:42:18.667 --> 01:42:22.937 This is one even with, because we never get a no, we just get bad luck. 01:42:23.797 --> 01:42:29.757 And so we're working actually actively on that hoping to, hoping to make it one day. 01:42:29.757 --> 01:42:31.917 I'm not going to give a date, but this is. 01:42:32.637 --> 01:42:34.897 If there is less than to do, I will do that one. 01:42:35.337 --> 01:42:40.817 I'm working, I just finished a shoot of young adult film. 01:42:40.877 --> 01:42:42.107 It's the first one I do. 01:42:42.127 --> 01:42:43.177 It's not even young adult. 01:42:43.177 --> 01:42:45.717 It's a teen film about bullying. 01:42:46.037 --> 01:42:47.327 And it's fantastic. 01:42:47.377 --> 01:42:49.737 It's, it's a fantastic story. 01:42:50.377 --> 01:42:55.467 About how ghost, who's the girl who's just committed suicide, we look at how 01:42:55.467 --> 01:43:01.367 she, how she ended up there and we're tackling the notion of we're tackling 01:43:01.377 --> 01:43:05.477 the notion of this anonymous bullying that goes on with a social network. 01:43:05.507 --> 01:43:07.627 It's a very beautiful, very strong. 01:43:08.067 --> 01:43:08.637 It's based. 01:43:09.327 --> 01:43:10.017 What's the name of the film? 01:43:10.627 --> 01:43:11.397 It's called. 01:43:11.467 --> 01:43:11.847 Okay. 01:43:11.847 --> 01:43:16.767 We, that's a working title is Tecate, which in French is the short. 01:43:17.432 --> 01:43:20.302 For tanquette and tanquette is don't worry. 01:43:20.302 --> 01:43:23.862 So when a teenager starts to tell you, don't worry, you actually 01:43:23.872 --> 01:43:27.612 have to start to really worry because the disconnect between 01:43:27.612 --> 01:43:30.252 parents and teenager is so immense. 01:43:30.562 --> 01:43:36.222 They will never let you in their world and their world is really brutal and violent. 01:43:36.512 --> 01:43:39.972 And so we wanted to tackle that because it's an epidemic. 01:43:40.872 --> 01:43:41.002 And 01:43:41.002 --> 01:43:43.872 Rupert Isaacson: is that based on a, on a book or is that just based 01:43:43.872 --> 01:43:47.892 Diana Elbaum: on a book that's very you know, it's based, it's 01:43:47.902 --> 01:43:49.632 based on the research of a teacher. 01:43:49.652 --> 01:43:52.562 She wrote a book, but it's loosely based on that. 01:43:53.222 --> 01:44:00.112 And it's mainly based on, I think, more than 300 interviews we had with teenagers. 01:44:01.447 --> 01:44:07.427 And the reality, uh, and it stems from the fact that the director whose director 01:44:07.437 --> 01:44:15.677 I've done, now it's the third film we do together you know, had, she's well off 01:44:15.717 --> 01:44:21.167 and she's quite bourgeois environment with really good, a kind of a great 01:44:21.167 --> 01:44:24.907 students, pretty, healthy, white. 01:44:25.482 --> 01:44:32.142 Whatever, all the cliche of the bourgeoisie her daughter was being bullied 01:44:32.182 --> 01:44:34.292 and she almost realized it too late. 01:44:35.042 --> 01:44:39.862 And so, you know, the, we convey the idea of bullying is only the others. 01:44:40.582 --> 01:44:43.832 We convey the idea of bullying is like the fatter or the one 01:44:43.842 --> 01:44:45.942 that has glasses or the whatever. 01:44:46.202 --> 01:44:47.152 It's everywhere. 01:44:47.212 --> 01:44:48.802 It's in every school. 01:44:48.862 --> 01:44:49.462 It's on. 01:44:49.807 --> 01:44:56.607 Every walk of life and and so she decided those we've done only 01:44:56.607 --> 01:44:59.247 comedies, the two previous film we've decided to do this one. 01:44:59.507 --> 01:45:00.867 It's been a hard sell. 01:45:01.727 --> 01:45:03.837 I have to say very hard sell on the market. 01:45:04.117 --> 01:45:07.257 Nobody wants to touch it, but we've decided we managed to get 01:45:07.257 --> 01:45:08.587 enough money to be able to do it. 01:45:08.617 --> 01:45:11.967 Not exactly the way we wanted, but enough to do a good film. 01:45:12.397 --> 01:45:13.527 When do you think it'll be out? 01:45:14.617 --> 01:45:18.027 wEll, we just finished shooting last week, so, you know, it was 01:45:18.037 --> 01:45:21.167 supposed to, we're going to finish it around May or June next year. 01:45:21.277 --> 01:45:22.337 And it's French language? 01:45:22.957 --> 01:45:23.287 Yeah. 01:45:23.607 --> 01:45:23.707 Okay. 01:45:23.787 --> 01:45:24.557 It's French language. 01:45:24.557 --> 01:45:28.467 I have to find an English title, so if your listeners have an idea, welcome. 01:45:29.027 --> 01:45:29.847 Rupert Isaacson: Don't worry, mom. 01:45:30.037 --> 01:45:30.407 Yeah. 01:45:30.937 --> 01:45:31.347 Diana Elbaum: Yeah. 01:45:31.607 --> 01:45:32.407 So I'm doing that. 01:45:32.447 --> 01:45:37.777 We're starting to shoot a TV show, Ha Ha Ha, Murder Mystery TV show in two weeks. 01:45:39.442 --> 01:45:43.862 So that's a big project because it's actually my first TV show. 01:45:43.882 --> 01:45:47.652 It's it's set in the nineties, so it's complex. 01:45:47.942 --> 01:45:51.332 Of course, there's not enough money because we also facing the hike 01:45:51.332 --> 01:45:55.172 of the increase, the increase, sorry, of the cost of living. 01:45:55.992 --> 01:45:57.632 But the budget are from two years ago. 01:45:57.692 --> 01:45:59.052 So they don't really care about that. 01:45:59.602 --> 01:46:02.042 And and so we have to deal with that. 01:46:02.042 --> 01:46:05.312 And it's it's a cross of for those who saw it Little Fire 01:46:05.352 --> 01:46:07.462 Everywhere meets Mare of Easttown. 01:46:08.512 --> 01:46:10.952 It's it's woman based, it's woman centered, it's a 01:46:10.952 --> 01:46:12.662 woman director, a woman DOP. 01:46:13.052 --> 01:46:16.722 It's based on the, on true, it stems from true events that 01:46:16.732 --> 01:46:18.232 happened in Belgium in the 90s. 01:46:18.727 --> 01:46:22.527 Which at the same time, so the end of the industrial era of the steel 01:46:22.537 --> 01:46:29.157 industry and then the serial killer and child molester and horror person. 01:46:29.687 --> 01:46:32.297 And there was a war of police here, so I'm not going to get into it. 01:46:32.297 --> 01:46:35.907 It's quite complex, but it's extremely fascinating around 01:46:35.917 --> 01:46:40.297 the classes, the working class, the bourgeois, ruling families. 01:46:41.232 --> 01:46:45.892 About the Italian immigration and that's another yet subject about, 01:46:46.052 --> 01:46:51.322 you know, the makeup of Belgium and war of police that then doesn't 01:46:51.322 --> 01:46:58.662 get any results and awful series of killers are being let loose because. 01:46:59.527 --> 01:47:02.137 just ego, political, police ego. 01:47:02.367 --> 01:47:05.797 Anyway, so we're shooting that one till the end of the year. 01:47:06.227 --> 01:47:09.787 That's going to be for a delivery also in June. 01:47:10.337 --> 01:47:16.257 And then I have a few other projects in the, in development right now. 01:47:16.757 --> 01:47:25.447 My first genre film was a survival film, um, which also woman, kind of 01:47:25.447 --> 01:47:27.047 a woman's story around motherhood. 01:47:27.647 --> 01:47:30.787 But it's totally genre is misery meets into the wild. 01:47:31.157 --> 01:47:34.737 So that's another one that I'm financing right now and we are 01:47:34.737 --> 01:47:36.477 casting and we are wrecking. 01:47:36.977 --> 01:47:38.287 So it's set in the mountains. 01:47:38.297 --> 01:47:41.737 So we've been to beautiful place like that's the other front part of my job. 01:47:42.107 --> 01:47:46.417 We've been wrecking in Alto Adige in so Northern Italy to Slovenia. 01:47:46.417 --> 01:47:47.287 It's really fun. 01:47:47.877 --> 01:47:49.157 And yeah. 01:47:49.317 --> 01:47:52.157 Then quite a few others that are baby level. 01:47:52.637 --> 01:47:58.287 So just a few ideas, another TV series, and then another book that I've just 01:47:58.317 --> 01:48:04.077 option and from a Belgian writer and yeah, and then a lot of him coming 01:48:04.077 --> 01:48:05.917 from, I have project from Canada. 01:48:05.957 --> 01:48:07.627 We have project from Italy. 01:48:08.077 --> 01:48:09.827 We have project from Germany coming. 01:48:09.827 --> 01:48:14.997 So there's a lot on the slate, but they're all different stages of development or. 01:48:17.052 --> 01:48:21.832 Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly how does a book option work? 01:48:21.832 --> 01:48:23.052 People talk about optioning. 01:48:23.632 --> 01:48:26.122 This is one of these, these, these terms you hear. 01:48:26.452 --> 01:48:29.542 As a layman, if you're listening how does, what does, what does a 01:48:29.552 --> 01:48:31.682 book option mean in the film world? 01:48:32.442 --> 01:48:32.972 So 01:48:33.692 --> 01:48:37.142 Diana Elbaum: the way it works with editor, book editors in the film world. 01:48:37.347 --> 01:48:43.737 Is that before pre pre publishing of a book, the editors, all of 01:48:43.787 --> 01:48:47.377 them have what they call the right audio visual department. 01:48:48.057 --> 01:48:53.667 So when you get to know to be known in the realm of book publishing or management you 01:48:53.667 --> 01:48:55.627 do get a preview of the upcoming books. 01:48:56.617 --> 01:49:02.257 So of course, the a lot of them are snatched up by the American studios. 01:49:03.292 --> 01:49:07.662 And you never get access to them, but I'm working mainly with European publishers 01:49:08.782 --> 01:49:13.432 or non American because I can't even get to Penguin Random and the rest of them. 01:49:13.432 --> 01:49:17.012 I mean, it's just like, it's like so many readers in the studios. 01:49:17.422 --> 01:49:20.912 There's no way you can get to a book fast. 01:49:21.257 --> 01:49:23.077 On that level and also on the money level. 01:49:23.547 --> 01:49:28.007 So what happens is that if a book is of interest, then I make an offer. 01:49:28.557 --> 01:49:34.307 And because we never know how difficult or not difficult a book is, and I 01:49:34.307 --> 01:49:40.017 can give you a few examples you take an option to produce a film based on 01:49:40.037 --> 01:49:45.347 the book for a year, two years, three years, five years, and it has a price. 01:49:47.012 --> 01:49:50.612 Rupert Isaacson: And the option means that you, your production company 01:49:51.032 --> 01:49:55.062 has the right to go out and try to raise the funds to get the film made. 01:49:55.442 --> 01:49:57.462 And if, if the publisher. 01:49:57.852 --> 01:50:01.722 And the author say, okay, and they signed that option with you. 01:50:01.912 --> 01:50:07.942 They can't go out to another film producer over there and say, Ooh, well, wait, let's 01:50:07.962 --> 01:50:09.602 play one's off against each other or so. 01:50:09.812 --> 01:50:13.042 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, they can't and they can't go to another language. 01:50:13.712 --> 01:50:14.142 Okay. 01:50:14.342 --> 01:50:18.072 If I read a book in French, if it's translated after and so on, the 01:50:18.072 --> 01:50:22.122 American market and somebody wants it, I have a hold back period. 01:50:22.557 --> 01:50:26.477 They cannot, no film can be, if the film is made at the end of the day, no film 01:50:26.477 --> 01:50:31.637 can be made after two, three, four years of the, the release of the first film. 01:50:32.227 --> 01:50:32.467 Okay. 01:50:32.717 --> 01:50:36.507 So there's a hold back period for further release in different languages. 01:50:37.327 --> 01:50:42.777 So it's quite complex, the book the, it's, very highly competitive market because 01:50:42.777 --> 01:50:47.747 everybody's looking at what you mentioned earlier on intellectual property is really 01:50:47.747 --> 01:50:49.807 the worth also of a production company. 01:50:50.327 --> 01:50:53.747 I option in my life. 01:50:54.362 --> 01:50:58.982 Not only your book, but also amazing, uh, content like Anne 01:50:58.992 --> 01:51:03.602 Frank diary, diaries, or I also 01:51:03.602 --> 01:51:06.422 Rupert Isaacson: optioned the diaries of Anne Frank. 01:51:06.632 --> 01:51:07.022 Yeah. 01:51:07.222 --> 01:51:12.162 But how did you, have those not been made and taken up by American companies? 01:51:12.252 --> 01:51:13.772 Diana Elbaum: No, it was actually in Israel. 01:51:13.772 --> 01:51:15.202 It was actually European. 01:51:15.837 --> 01:51:17.517 That would, yeah, that was European. 01:51:17.517 --> 01:51:21.137 So you also have to understand that all the publishers or the audiovisual 01:51:21.137 --> 01:51:25.757 rights representative of the product publisher every single market, 01:51:26.487 --> 01:51:28.117 those people are really accessible. 01:51:28.767 --> 01:51:33.407 So, you know, you go, you, you usually receive pre market, you receive like a 01:51:33.417 --> 01:51:34.937 whole, all those books are coming out. 01:51:35.237 --> 01:51:37.867 And then you also receive all those books have not been optioned. 01:51:39.192 --> 01:51:46.762 And it goes from, you know, real life, you know, like your book, like, a biography 01:51:46.762 --> 01:51:51.592 or real life event, it goes to children literature, you know, to, and then all 01:51:51.602 --> 01:51:57.282 the rest of the genre we know and it's extremely you know, if you see like The 01:51:57.292 --> 01:52:04.487 Lost Daughter, for example, it was a huge, huge IP because the author was, Huge. 01:52:04.967 --> 01:52:07.797 And it was, there was a lot of pressure on that one. 01:52:07.817 --> 01:52:11.657 So the fact that the the producer managed to get that as independent 01:52:11.707 --> 01:52:12.997 producer in another studio. 01:52:13.547 --> 01:52:17.307 So there's a lot of pressure when books come out of there 01:52:17.307 --> 01:52:19.017 are, you know, are announced. 01:52:20.717 --> 01:52:22.207 I Also go back to old. 01:52:22.227 --> 01:52:25.247 I have a lot of friends that are I don't know how to say that in English. 01:52:25.257 --> 01:52:27.307 I have a lot of friends that are librarians. 01:52:28.167 --> 01:52:33.167 So I also have dinner with them like once every two, twice a year and 01:52:33.167 --> 01:52:37.007 say, I want only literature from, you know, American literature for 01:52:37.067 --> 01:52:39.057 the seventies has not been option. 01:52:39.447 --> 01:52:43.417 So, you know, then the rights and the price is really low because if it hasn't 01:52:43.417 --> 01:52:45.777 been option, probably has returned back. 01:52:45.777 --> 01:52:49.767 I mean, that they have no value, almost less value, a very, you 01:52:49.767 --> 01:52:54.467 know, books that are coming out are super sellers are unbuyable. 01:52:55.682 --> 01:53:00.372 Cause it's so much money to, to option and they won't give it unless you have 01:53:00.372 --> 01:53:02.312 the whole package already figure out. 01:53:02.312 --> 01:53:06.702 So it's mainly goes to the American in the studios or big French companies. 01:53:07.872 --> 01:53:15.142 The so the, another example of a book was extremely hard to get. 01:53:15.142 --> 01:53:18.682 And we managed to get, and we did a film about it was a coming book. 01:53:19.032 --> 01:53:26.707 It was a tiny Gucci, um, Again, I have to remember the English title. 01:53:26.747 --> 01:53:28.737 Stanley Goucher is the father of the manga. 01:53:29.557 --> 01:53:30.747 He passed, unfortunately. 01:53:30.747 --> 01:53:32.267 The father of manga, okay. 01:53:32.287 --> 01:53:33.597 Yeah, he's the father of the manga. 01:53:34.377 --> 01:53:39.217 He's like above and beyond every manga writers. 01:53:39.287 --> 01:53:40.127 Give us his name again. 01:53:40.517 --> 01:53:41.387 Tani Gushi. 01:53:42.037 --> 01:53:43.667 Tani Gushi. 01:53:43.927 --> 01:53:47.477 Beautiful writer, beautiful stories. 01:53:49.207 --> 01:53:52.097 Rupert Isaacson: Down my wiki rabbit hole as you speak, keep going. 01:53:52.937 --> 01:53:55.277 Diana Elbaum: And so that was a lot of pressure because the book 01:53:55.277 --> 01:53:56.767 was very successful in France. 01:53:58.062 --> 01:54:03.142 And not only in France, around the world, but also the name as a writer was massive 01:54:03.152 --> 01:54:08.302 and we really had to get or act together to be able to get the the, the only 01:54:08.312 --> 01:54:13.272 chance I had on that one was the fact that the publisher was in non Japanese. 01:54:13.862 --> 01:54:18.132 So the official publisher outside of Japan was the Belgian publishing company. 01:54:18.582 --> 01:54:21.342 And I knew very well the director of the audiovisual rights. 01:54:21.842 --> 01:54:25.402 And I went to eat with her and I said, we have, I have to do this book. 01:54:26.072 --> 01:54:27.382 I have to do this. 01:54:27.977 --> 01:54:28.997 And so she gave it to me. 01:54:29.707 --> 01:54:32.947 Well, not only because I'm nice and a beautiful and friendly and I know good 01:54:32.947 --> 01:54:37.297 restaurants, but I mean, it was not an easy transaction, but we got it. 01:54:38.272 --> 01:54:42.232 And yeah, so there is a lot of pressure on that, but it's obvious, 01:54:42.402 --> 01:54:47.102 you know, if, and, and funnily enough, it's not because a good is a book 01:54:47.102 --> 01:54:48.372 is good to film is going to be good. 01:54:49.412 --> 01:54:50.192 Absolutely. 01:54:50.492 --> 01:54:55.142 Usually what there is this one spark in a book that you say, yeah, we need 01:54:55.142 --> 01:54:56.902 to do this, but it's not always a book. 01:54:56.932 --> 01:54:58.072 It's just a one spark. 01:54:58.477 --> 01:54:59.147 Mm hmm. 01:54:59.227 --> 01:55:01.217 Especially with adaptation of comic book. 01:55:02.697 --> 01:55:02.967 Which, 01:55:02.987 --> 01:55:05.777 Rupert Isaacson: which is the comic book that you, you're, you've adapted by? 01:55:05.777 --> 01:55:05.807 It's 01:55:07.017 --> 01:55:09.117 Diana Elbaum: Cartier Lointain in French. 01:55:09.227 --> 01:55:12.307 And again, for the life of me, I will not remember. 01:55:14.567 --> 01:55:16.007 Rupert Isaacson: His bibliography here. 01:55:16.757 --> 01:55:19.517 Well, Cartier obviously means like a quarter of a, of a 01:55:19.517 --> 01:55:21.487 town, faraway neighborhood. 01:55:22.587 --> 01:55:23.107 Okay. 01:55:23.197 --> 01:55:23.497 Diana Elbaum: Gosh. 01:55:23.497 --> 01:55:27.127 In Japanese it's Aruka Namashi. 01:55:27.707 --> 01:55:30.457 Rupert Isaacson: Do you happen to know when it came out because he's, he's, 01:55:30.507 --> 01:55:32.687 Diana Elbaum: I think it's okay. 01:55:32.687 --> 01:55:34.617 The story is set in 1998. 01:55:35.737 --> 01:55:41.447 And let me go, I'll also go to wiki because hold on, it was published in 01:55:41.687 --> 01:55:49.407 1998 in Japan and then was translated in 2002 and three came back out in France. 01:55:50.437 --> 01:55:51.697 Rupert Isaacson: I see it here. 01:55:51.827 --> 01:55:53.707 A distant neighborhood, a distant 01:55:53.707 --> 01:55:54.167 Diana Elbaum: neighborhood. 01:55:54.167 --> 01:55:54.367 Yeah. 01:55:54.447 --> 01:55:54.757 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:55:54.758 --> 01:55:58.947 Haruka, Haruka Namachi, a distant neighborhood. 01:55:59.083 --> 01:56:00.982 We 01:56:01.162 --> 01:56:05.262 Diana Elbaum: had the huge pleasure, immense pleasure of Mr. 01:56:05.262 --> 01:56:06.852 Taniguchi coming to the set. 01:56:06.862 --> 01:56:13.772 We were shooting in the Alps, the border of Switzerland, and he came to the set and 01:56:13.782 --> 01:56:20.660 that was just amazing with his wife and it was just beautiful, beautiful, middle aged 01:56:20.660 --> 01:56:21.502 Rupert Isaacson: salaryman. 01:56:22.163 --> 01:56:27.022 Hiroshi Nakahara accidentally takes a train ride back to his old hometown 01:56:27.372 --> 01:56:30.862 to visit his mother's grave, then for reasons he cannot explain... 01:56:31.402 --> 01:56:35.762 Hiroshi is transported over 30 years into the past, reacquainting himself with 01:56:35.772 --> 01:56:39.462 the family he's lost and the individual memories he has since forgotten. 01:56:40.872 --> 01:56:43.922 Good sounds, good esoteric Japanese stuff. 01:56:45.702 --> 01:56:48.452 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, I mean it's, I think it's everybody's wild dream 01:56:48.462 --> 01:56:51.632 to sometime revisit unfinished story, unfinished business. 01:56:52.802 --> 01:56:53.542 Absolutely, 01:56:53.592 --> 01:56:55.632 Rupert Isaacson: right, right the wrongs and heal. 01:56:56.282 --> 01:56:57.892 Must be a story of healing. 01:56:59.042 --> 01:57:03.942 sO, there's a couple of moral takeaways I'm taking from this as 01:57:03.942 --> 01:57:07.242 we head towards the end of this really fascinating conversation. 01:57:07.252 --> 01:57:10.672 One is, always talk to strangers. 01:57:11.692 --> 01:57:12.322 Always. 01:57:12.582 --> 01:57:12.642 You 01:57:12.652 --> 01:57:16.142 Diana Elbaum: wouldn't, you know why Rupert, you know why 01:57:16.152 --> 01:57:17.192 I always talk to strangers. 01:57:17.222 --> 01:57:18.072 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:57:18.172 --> 01:57:18.602 Absolutely. 01:57:18.602 --> 01:57:19.892 Because we're always told not to. 01:57:20.332 --> 01:57:21.832 And it's really interesting. 01:57:21.942 --> 01:57:23.152 Diana Elbaum: I wasn't going that way. 01:57:23.153 --> 01:57:25.372 But 01:57:25.372 --> 01:57:27.882 Rupert Isaacson: we are, we are told not to, we are told to be reserved. 01:57:27.902 --> 01:57:29.582 We are told not to put ourselves forward. 01:57:29.582 --> 01:57:31.262 We're told not to be mouthy. 01:57:31.262 --> 01:57:32.952 We're told not to be curious. 01:57:33.642 --> 01:57:37.652 And you're, you're saying this high school teacher. 01:57:38.937 --> 01:57:44.717 The conversations with that person, then, you know, a bar in, in Israel at 01:57:44.717 --> 01:57:49.217 a certain period of your life, and then this conversation with the, this amazing 01:57:49.217 --> 01:57:53.907 young man who is somehow managing to bring grace into the stressful situation 01:57:53.907 --> 01:57:56.447 in a taxi rank, who then turns out to be. 01:57:56.887 --> 01:57:59.987 With you a very successful young, 01:58:00.087 --> 01:58:00.627 Diana Elbaum: Director. 01:58:00.627 --> 01:58:01.087 Yeah. 01:58:01.277 --> 01:58:01.587 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:58:01.947 --> 01:58:03.277 So talk to strangers. 01:58:03.827 --> 01:58:11.157 There's something else, which I wanted to ask you really from the beginning of this. 01:58:11.217 --> 01:58:15.077 You had a high school teacher who turned you on to Dutch literature. 01:58:15.117 --> 01:58:16.947 And this is where these stories began. 01:58:17.187 --> 01:58:18.937 Have you made one of these stories? 01:58:18.977 --> 01:58:23.997 And also, what is the Dutch literature book that we should 01:58:24.017 --> 01:58:25.437 all read that we don't know? 01:58:25.437 --> 01:58:25.517 Diana Elbaum: Yeah. 01:58:25.837 --> 01:58:30.007 Oh my God, this is like down memory lane. 01:58:30.387 --> 01:58:32.537 So no, I've never made any anything. 01:58:32.557 --> 01:58:36.037 I still want to make one, but I'm not going to be able because the family's 01:58:36.037 --> 01:58:37.477 holding tight on the rights, but 01:58:39.712 --> 01:58:42.372 Rupert Isaacson: What's the book that you feel we should read? 01:58:42.692 --> 01:58:45.272 Diana Elbaum: So the book, and I can't even remember the book, 01:58:45.362 --> 01:58:46.962 that's just to tell you that much. 01:58:46.982 --> 01:58:48.482 I know it triggers something in me. 01:58:48.832 --> 01:58:50.242 I think it's called The Wall. 01:58:50.602 --> 01:58:51.472 I can't even figure out. 01:58:51.692 --> 01:58:53.652 I don't remember the name of the writer. 01:58:54.052 --> 01:59:01.302 But you know, and but then many, many, many books later. 01:59:02.132 --> 01:59:04.962 When I made this connection with Faulkner because literally she told 01:59:04.962 --> 01:59:09.072 me, if you like him, you're going to love Faulkner and that's how I started. 01:59:09.112 --> 01:59:12.932 And then I went Faulkner and I read all Faulkner in French because 01:59:13.202 --> 01:59:16.312 Shakespeare and Faulkner are the two writers I cannot read in English. 01:59:16.572 --> 01:59:16.952 Okay. 01:59:16.952 --> 01:59:17.202 Interesting. 01:59:18.237 --> 01:59:18.997 I don't get it. 01:59:19.487 --> 01:59:24.387 And that sounds so kind of, oh, I can't read Faulkner and 01:59:24.387 --> 01:59:26.012 Shakespeare in English, but it 01:59:26.012 --> 01:59:27.747 Rupert Isaacson: makes sense because you're dealing with a 01:59:27.747 --> 01:59:29.047 very particular kind of English. 01:59:29.047 --> 01:59:32.867 And I think I think that those two, I think that all the classic writers, 01:59:33.837 --> 01:59:36.927 it truly actually doesn't matter what language you read them in, because the 01:59:36.927 --> 01:59:43.517 power of the story is so is so powerful that it transcends the language. 01:59:44.317 --> 01:59:45.787 And I think I think any author. 01:59:46.547 --> 01:59:50.367 And I know I would say that, you know, if you can translate my book. 01:59:50.792 --> 01:59:55.112 really well into your language, please have at it, because there'll be aspects 01:59:55.112 --> 01:59:59.532 of it that I couldn't do in my own language that come out of that story, 01:59:59.722 --> 02:00:01.732 that you might do better in translation. 02:00:02.062 --> 02:00:02.392 Yeah. 02:00:02.632 --> 02:00:05.402 Because stories, stories have, are their own ecosystems for sure. 02:00:05.422 --> 02:00:05.602 Yeah, 02:00:05.642 --> 02:00:06.252 Diana Elbaum: absolutely. 02:00:06.252 --> 02:00:08.922 I totally agree with you, and language have like, mmm. 02:00:10.337 --> 02:00:11.747 It's language are beautiful. 02:00:12.137 --> 02:00:13.307 And yeah. 02:00:14.357 --> 02:00:15.917 So yeah, and then Faulkner. 02:00:15.922 --> 02:00:16.877 And then I love Faulkner. 02:00:16.877 --> 02:00:19.007 I came back and I said, oh, you know, I love Faulkner. 02:00:19.007 --> 02:00:22.427 And she was really in her own way of being a Flemish teacher. 02:00:22.427 --> 02:00:24.527 Everybody hated Flemish, by the way, at school. 02:00:24.917 --> 02:00:27.717 But in her own way, she kind of like guided me and she said, 02:00:27.717 --> 02:00:28.677 oh, maybe you should leave. 02:00:28.747 --> 02:00:30.757 You should read Cortez no, sorry. 02:00:31.022 --> 02:00:35.232 Marquez then came, of course, The Hundred Years of Solitude, where 02:00:35.232 --> 02:00:39.782 then my world completely kind of like, you know, what is that? 02:00:39.952 --> 02:00:44.322 And and then after that came all the others, Fuentes and Borges 02:00:44.842 --> 02:00:49.392 and Cortázar and like the very classical South American writer. 02:00:50.252 --> 02:00:51.842 And I just couldn't get enough of it. 02:00:51.872 --> 02:00:56.432 And it's funny because at that time, also, I never read one female writer, right? 02:00:56.912 --> 02:01:01.302 And still, I could totally, engage in those crazy, crazy. 02:01:02.317 --> 02:01:09.247 Time lapses that magic realism brings you of of and kind of a little bit of 02:01:09.297 --> 02:01:14.917 schizophrenia because especially Fuentes, but also Cortázar with the division 02:01:14.917 --> 02:01:19.047 of the self with the point of view of the he and the point of view of the I. 02:01:19.592 --> 02:01:25.462 Is it was mesmerizing for me to be able to look at anyway, it was 02:01:25.482 --> 02:01:30.412 mesmerizing and never, and you know, I was training traditional French school. 02:01:30.412 --> 02:01:34.162 So we had, you know, we had Victoria go and we have. 02:01:34.287 --> 02:01:37.997 We had like Giono and we had all the French classic, but it was also 02:01:37.997 --> 02:01:39.877 at the time we were reading a lot. 02:01:40.307 --> 02:01:44.647 And and just this encounter with the American writers and the 02:01:44.697 --> 02:01:49.837 South American, um, I, I, I've seen her many, many years later. 02:01:49.887 --> 02:01:54.697 And and then we went to eat and I had to thank her. 02:01:54.877 --> 02:02:01.012 I mean, really, I had to thank her and say, you know, you changed my world. 02:02:01.292 --> 02:02:03.052 You actually changed my world. 02:02:03.052 --> 02:02:06.602 And I wish we would recognize more the capacity of what teacher can 02:02:06.602 --> 02:02:10.802 do to a young child, a teenage and how important that is. 02:02:11.272 --> 02:02:14.412 But she literally, she didn't change my world because I didn't know I had 02:02:14.412 --> 02:02:18.862 to choose a world to change, but she opened a door that I didn't know existed. 02:02:19.182 --> 02:02:19.822 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 02:02:19.822 --> 02:02:25.132 I had a teacher like this at school who had been a the student of Tolkien's. 02:02:26.577 --> 02:02:30.837 And he read a couple of things that I had written, um, and 02:02:30.837 --> 02:02:32.137 said, Rupert, you can do this. 02:02:32.167 --> 02:02:33.207 You should, you should do this. 02:02:34.487 --> 02:02:39.367 I've just I've just been looking up now, Dutch literature, because 02:02:39.367 --> 02:02:41.837 now I'm like, oh my gosh, well, clearly there's a whole world here. 02:02:42.097 --> 02:02:44.147 And of course, who pops up but Anne Frank. 02:02:44.212 --> 02:02:44.272 Yeah. 02:02:44.832 --> 02:02:45.252 And it's true. 02:02:45.552 --> 02:02:47.292 We don't think of her as a Dutch writer. 02:02:47.592 --> 02:02:50.107 You know, we think of her as, except Dutch of her, 02:02:50.107 --> 02:02:52.062 Diana Elbaum: except they think about her as a Dutch writer. 02:02:52.887 --> 02:02:53.107 Rupert Isaacson: Got. 02:02:53.157 --> 02:02:55.587 But there are some really interesting people coming up here, 02:02:55.587 --> 02:02:58.857 like Gerard Re Reeve, and Oh yeah. 02:02:59.217 --> 02:03:02.437 Writing about homosexuality and the, when it was still illegal villain, 02:03:02.447 --> 02:03:05.327 Frederick Hammond's talking about the war. 02:03:05.387 --> 02:03:06.277 So, thank you for telling me. 02:03:06.567 --> 02:03:11.047 I've got a whole, I've got, I've got, I'm going to dive down a Dutch rabbit hole. 02:03:11.297 --> 02:03:11.437 It's 02:03:11.437 --> 02:03:14.387 Diana Elbaum: kind of funny that we, you know, you're speaking to a film producer. 02:03:14.387 --> 02:03:17.307 You're going to end up reading 20, 20 times more books and 02:03:17.307 --> 02:03:18.557 going and actually seeing films. 02:03:18.987 --> 02:03:20.667 I'm not sure I'm doing my job right. 02:03:20.747 --> 02:03:22.857 Rupert Isaacson: Well, the other thing that you're doing, which is 02:03:22.957 --> 02:03:26.947 the other moral of this, which I want, I want listeners to take away. 02:03:27.043 --> 02:03:33.222 Is obviously I'm a predominantly English speaking person. 02:03:33.502 --> 02:03:39.192 So although I've stuff I've written has gone into translation I write 02:03:39.192 --> 02:03:41.612 in English and I live in Germany. 02:03:41.642 --> 02:03:43.402 My German is poor, but it's functional. 02:03:43.462 --> 02:03:44.242 I can speak French. 02:03:44.662 --> 02:03:49.152 But I didn't write in it and I wouldn't presume to be able to for 02:03:49.182 --> 02:03:53.442 those of us listening to this cause I'm, I will go back and listen to 02:03:53.442 --> 02:03:55.442 this as well, we tend to assume. 02:03:56.382 --> 02:04:00.292 In the movie industry in the industry of stories, TV, et cetera, 02:04:00.322 --> 02:04:01.642 that it's all English speaking. 02:04:01.972 --> 02:04:05.352 So I know that a lot of you will have a lot of you listeners will have 02:04:05.602 --> 02:04:09.482 tuned into this episode thinking, ah, well, this must be about Hollywood. 02:04:09.792 --> 02:04:11.102 And this must be about. 02:04:12.992 --> 02:04:16.222 The offshoots of that which of course are the streaming services and that 02:04:16.222 --> 02:04:23.682 sort of thing what I think is really fascinating is people outside of the 02:04:23.682 --> 02:04:29.112 English speaking world discount because they're just not exposed to it until 02:04:29.112 --> 02:04:33.002 it gets remade in English because a lot of a lot of great films in English were 02:04:33.012 --> 02:04:36.982 actually made in other languages first people forget that A lot of the classic 02:04:36.982 --> 02:04:40.922 movies that we know and love were often French movies or German movies or Italian 02:04:40.982 --> 02:04:43.022 movies before they were English movies. 02:04:43.282 --> 02:04:48.282 But there's this whole industry and that you can even take a country as small 02:04:48.282 --> 02:04:52.192 as Belgium, which, you know, when you look from the American, Americocentric 02:04:52.252 --> 02:04:54.332 point of view, people are like, ah, Belgium is just a tiny little country. 02:04:54.362 --> 02:04:54.842 What does that mean? 02:04:55.152 --> 02:04:56.752 But of course, where do we get Tintin? 02:04:56.772 --> 02:04:57.692 Where do we get Asterix? 02:04:57.702 --> 02:05:01.677 Where do we get the cultural output? 02:05:02.377 --> 02:05:06.747 anD that when you do now sit on the aeroplane and you see all these films 02:05:06.747 --> 02:05:09.947 from all over the world, as you said, Diana, there's an industry there. 02:05:10.387 --> 02:05:15.047 So I think a real takeaway is that don't think if you want to go into 02:05:15.047 --> 02:05:17.997 the movie industry, if you want to publish a book, if you want to make 02:05:17.997 --> 02:05:22.257 a film, that it has to be Hollywood, that there has to be this break through 02:05:22.257 --> 02:05:25.477 those gatekeepers into that world. 02:05:25.487 --> 02:05:28.832 No, no, you can make it where you are. 02:05:28.833 --> 02:05:33.282 There is a whole industry that will sustain you. 02:05:33.892 --> 02:05:36.542 Okay, it's connected to an international industry, but it 02:05:36.562 --> 02:05:39.542 will sustain you where you are. 02:05:39.842 --> 02:05:45.612 So if you're sitting in you might be sitting in the USA or you're sitting 02:05:45.642 --> 02:05:52.952 in the UK, but you might be sitting listening to this in Benin or Mongolia. 02:05:53.552 --> 02:05:56.412 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, Avangardia actually gets a huge, 02:05:56.422 --> 02:05:56.652 Rupert Isaacson: huge... 02:05:56.782 --> 02:05:57.202 Absolutely. 02:05:57.203 --> 02:05:58.182 Oh, God. 02:05:58.182 --> 02:06:02.302 You can stake your film and your TV stuff there, and you should. 02:06:02.442 --> 02:06:04.212 You don't have to think Hollywood. 02:06:04.242 --> 02:06:07.892 And I think this is really important for people, because I think a lot of 02:06:07.892 --> 02:06:12.172 people don't start, because they think, Oh, well, I could never make it there. 02:06:12.182 --> 02:06:12.852 I don't have the rights. 02:06:12.892 --> 02:06:13.802 I don't have the connections. 02:06:14.522 --> 02:06:16.032 How would I make it in film? 02:06:16.062 --> 02:06:19.702 Because Phil equals Los Angeles, or it equals, yeah? 02:06:20.032 --> 02:06:20.672 Diana Elbaum: Yeah, it's... 02:06:20.772 --> 02:06:21.372 But it doesn't. 02:06:22.377 --> 02:06:24.107 Yeah, it's, it's a lot of overlook. 02:06:24.107 --> 02:06:27.327 And it's good that you're mentioning that we making films. 02:06:27.407 --> 02:06:31.527 Oh, I mean, we, when I see the film community is making films everywhere. 02:06:31.847 --> 02:06:36.137 And actually the market is, of course, the market is craving for the American 02:06:36.527 --> 02:06:39.037 films because it's an entertainment. 02:06:39.047 --> 02:06:41.077 It's, it's got a production value. 02:06:41.352 --> 02:06:45.522 Only in America, you can make, but you know, Nigeria makes as many films 02:06:45.522 --> 02:06:49.332 as the U S or India makes as any film in the U S to just name a few. 02:06:49.722 --> 02:06:53.612 The thing is that also one of the things that we should be craving for 02:06:53.612 --> 02:06:58.032 in the market is actually the market of the independent film world is 02:06:58.032 --> 02:07:00.022 craving for is all those new voices. 02:07:00.022 --> 02:07:04.042 As soon as I look at last year, look at the foreign Oscars. 02:07:05.392 --> 02:07:08.392 For example, our international, I think it's called, they rename 02:07:08.392 --> 02:07:10.632 it International Oscar list. 02:07:10.952 --> 02:07:15.252 Last year, there was a film of Bhutan, and then you have a film from, you 02:07:15.252 --> 02:07:18.522 know, Joy, Joyful from Iraq was there. 02:07:18.962 --> 02:07:20.402 You know, look at those films. 02:07:20.952 --> 02:07:25.002 They get there for a reason because it's another way to look at our world. 02:07:25.032 --> 02:07:28.622 And if you like to, I mean, it sounds tacky to the max, 02:07:28.762 --> 02:07:29.792 but I'm going to go for it. 02:07:30.312 --> 02:07:34.032 I feel if you are a little bit curious about how your neighbor lives. 02:07:35.697 --> 02:07:39.207 Go see films from your own country as well, depending on where you are. 02:07:39.587 --> 02:07:42.987 And it could be the American indie films also, which is totally different 02:07:42.987 --> 02:07:46.897 industry than the Hollywood, because there's also that whole other industry. 02:07:47.337 --> 02:07:51.657 We did a film last year, one, we had a film in Cannes, one, the Camaradeau, 02:07:51.667 --> 02:07:56.457 which is the best first film of all the all the films shown in Cannes called 02:07:56.457 --> 02:07:59.207 War Pony about the Dakota First Nation. 02:07:59.657 --> 02:08:01.527 You know, it's, and it's an American film. 02:08:02.577 --> 02:08:03.307 War Pony. 02:08:03.437 --> 02:08:03.587 You 02:08:03.587 --> 02:08:04.017 Rupert Isaacson: produced 02:08:04.017 --> 02:08:04.327 Diana Elbaum: that? 02:08:04.927 --> 02:08:08.397 It's, it's, my comp, I mean, it's a group, I'm part of a group called 02:08:08.397 --> 02:08:10.347 Caviar, so it's Caviar Group. 02:08:10.857 --> 02:08:14.687 And it's a first film, First Nation Dakota. 02:08:14.797 --> 02:08:18.277 I had no idea what it was and I saw the film because I wasn't involved 02:08:18.277 --> 02:08:19.377 in the production of that one. 02:08:19.957 --> 02:08:22.967 But you know, I saw the film in Cannes and I was, you know, my 02:08:22.967 --> 02:08:26.857 heart went out and I was like, damn, so much work to do in the world. 02:08:27.177 --> 02:08:28.507 It's beautiful. 02:08:29.017 --> 02:08:29.557 And 02:08:33.257 --> 02:08:35.267 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, thank you for telling me. 02:08:35.577 --> 02:08:38.027 I'm just wicking War Pony right now. 02:08:38.497 --> 02:08:43.307 Looks absolutely fascinating because, yeah, I know a little bit about the 02:08:43.327 --> 02:08:49.727 Lakota, um, situation and the Rosebud and Pine Ridge Reservations in. 02:08:50.872 --> 02:08:53.652 In America, which of course are the two poorest parts of America, 02:08:54.522 --> 02:08:58.182 Diana Elbaum: but yet I think, I think, I think film. 02:08:58.532 --> 02:09:02.062 That's actually a reduction of literature. 02:09:02.122 --> 02:09:03.422 Yes, it takes an effort. 02:09:03.432 --> 02:09:04.782 Yes, it demands an effort. 02:09:04.792 --> 02:09:09.542 Yes, you might not want to go and see it because it's raining because it's a little 02:09:09.602 --> 02:09:12.032 bit too expensive for my taste as well. 02:09:13.012 --> 02:09:16.622 But you would be amazed the conversation you can engage, and 02:09:16.622 --> 02:09:18.912 you would be amazed about it. 02:09:20.082 --> 02:09:26.102 How he makes you, I know I'm going to go all the way, how he could 02:09:26.112 --> 02:09:30.862 make you challenge your everyday life and how beautiful it can be. 02:09:31.202 --> 02:09:33.152 I've seen film this year in Cannes. 02:09:33.682 --> 02:09:34.712 I've seen one. 02:09:34.832 --> 02:09:40.062 It's this year in the last time in May, who's called Zone of Interest by 02:09:40.082 --> 02:09:42.852 Jonathan Glaser, which is a UK director. 02:09:42.852 --> 02:09:44.082 He's done only three films. 02:09:45.092 --> 02:09:54.232 And I can tell you that I came out of the film so shaken, so destroyed emotionally. 02:09:54.957 --> 02:09:58.337 And so it was a weird can, because at the same time I had also a film 02:09:58.807 --> 02:10:03.297 screening at Cannes, but I was crying the whole, the whole Cannes, not because 02:10:03.297 --> 02:10:05.637 I couldn't make it, but because of the 02:10:05.806 --> 02:10:07.986 because of the emotion I felt. 02:10:08.256 --> 02:10:11.421 And each time everybody of my friends say, Oh, did you see the Jonathan Glaser? 02:10:11.421 --> 02:10:13.996 It was a buzz on the Croisette. 02:10:13.996 --> 02:10:15.356 And I was like starting to cry. 02:10:15.366 --> 02:10:20.126 And I just came back from Locarno, another film festival in Europe, just yesterday. 02:10:21.266 --> 02:10:25.876 And I, when I landed, the producer of that film was landing 02:10:25.876 --> 02:10:27.176 at the same time from Poland. 02:10:27.656 --> 02:10:33.696 And so we shared the drive from Zurich to Locarno was around four and a half hours. 02:10:33.776 --> 02:10:37.556 And I told, I mean, I was crying again. 02:10:37.586 --> 02:10:41.166 And so I was asking questions about the film, how they made 02:10:41.466 --> 02:10:42.956 it, you know, how does it work? 02:10:43.086 --> 02:10:45.496 And of course the film has been sold everywhere. 02:10:45.496 --> 02:10:49.306 So it's going to come out probably in the full time in most of the 02:10:49.306 --> 02:10:54.366 places and probably will have a nomination for an international Oscar. 02:10:54.696 --> 02:10:59.156 But, and how much I cried again in that car drive, I was just like, 02:10:59.156 --> 02:11:00.566 look at what you're doing to me. 02:11:00.996 --> 02:11:04.786 Look at how I can't get away from the emotion I felt. 02:11:05.896 --> 02:11:11.516 And months after seeing the film, and I'm not especially no romantic, 02:11:11.576 --> 02:11:14.296 nor kind of, emotional person. 02:11:14.346 --> 02:11:15.626 But that one just. 02:11:17.421 --> 02:11:19.711 Triggered and if you can have that. 02:11:20.306 --> 02:11:25.366 Once in a while in your life and be able for two hours to forget about 02:11:25.526 --> 02:11:28.406 the fact that you have to go home and, you know, you have to pay bills 02:11:28.406 --> 02:11:32.706 and, you know, that sometime life is crap or just beautiful and just 02:11:32.706 --> 02:11:35.136 have this bubble of time and fine. 02:11:35.556 --> 02:11:37.336 And sometimes it's going to be awful family. 02:11:37.336 --> 02:11:37.996 You're going to hate it. 02:11:37.996 --> 02:11:41.426 But the one you find the great film, it's just. 02:11:42.091 --> 02:11:42.971 Such an experience. 02:11:43.161 --> 02:11:44.221 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us the name of this film 02:11:44.221 --> 02:11:45.181 Diana Elbaum: by Jonathan Glazier. 02:11:45.181 --> 02:11:46.451 It's called Zone of Interest. 02:11:46.521 --> 02:11:47.471 It's based on a book. 02:11:47.491 --> 02:11:50.081 The author died the day of the screening. 02:11:50.561 --> 02:11:50.921 Wow. 02:11:51.171 --> 02:11:54.951 I can't remember the author's name, of course, like the rest of the authors, but 02:11:54.961 --> 02:11:56.961 you're going to find it on the internet. 02:11:57.371 --> 02:11:57.911 Okay. 02:11:58.691 --> 02:12:00.596 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for the tip, War Pony. 02:12:01.176 --> 02:12:07.156 And so I just see that War, War Pony was produced by Riley Cuff, it 02:12:07.156 --> 02:12:08.276 Diana Elbaum: was directed by her, 02:12:08.386 --> 02:12:10.406 Rupert Isaacson: who of course is Elvis Presley's granddaughter. 02:12:10.466 --> 02:12:10.826 Yeah, 02:12:10.876 --> 02:12:14.046 Diana Elbaum: it was directed by her, directed by her. 02:12:14.086 --> 02:12:19.186 And there were two directors who met in another beautiful film shot by 02:12:19.216 --> 02:12:21.416 Andrea Arnold called American Honey. 02:12:21.956 --> 02:12:26.706 Those two actresses met and then they shot there in South Dakota 02:12:26.716 --> 02:12:30.456 for American Honey and that's how they got in touch with the Lakotas. 02:12:31.346 --> 02:12:33.926 So it's you know, one film brings another film. 02:12:34.566 --> 02:12:35.996 Rupert Isaacson: Gosh zone of interest. 02:12:36.826 --> 02:12:40.096 A Nazi officer falls in love with the woman of the commander of 02:12:40.106 --> 02:12:42.246 the Auschwitz concentration camp. 02:12:43.136 --> 02:12:43.486 That's, 02:12:43.996 --> 02:12:44.956 Diana Elbaum: that's worse. 02:12:45.526 --> 02:12:46.686 Worst speech ever. 02:12:46.686 --> 02:12:47.746 It's really not about 02:12:47.746 --> 02:12:48.096 Rupert Isaacson: that. 02:12:49.246 --> 02:12:50.546 Based on the Martin Amis. 02:12:51.166 --> 02:12:51.356 Diana Elbaum: Yeah. 02:12:51.356 --> 02:12:52.246 Martin Amis. 02:12:52.246 --> 02:12:52.686 Okay. 02:12:52.696 --> 02:12:54.766 It's really not the pitch of the film. 02:12:55.106 --> 02:12:55.366 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:12:55.406 --> 02:13:00.246 Well, you know, they always, they always have to But it's not, 02:13:00.256 --> 02:13:02.676 Diana Elbaum: it's it's much more, it's, it's a radical film. 02:13:03.026 --> 02:13:07.606 It's also, okay, I'm going to get into it just a little bit, Robert, and then 02:13:07.606 --> 02:13:12.266 you it's also the fact that it's not, the story is told by what's on the screen. 02:13:12.976 --> 02:13:13.226 Okay. 02:13:13.316 --> 02:13:14.246 I'm going to start again. 02:13:14.686 --> 02:13:15.286 Take two. 02:13:15.716 --> 02:13:17.086 The story is told. 02:13:18.196 --> 02:13:22.186 The way we tell a story is not always telling a story from, it's 02:13:22.186 --> 02:13:27.566 always, it's also the combination of the visual grammar of a film. 02:13:28.906 --> 02:13:33.826 And, and the bounce back, the echo between the narration and the visual grammar 02:13:33.836 --> 02:13:38.886 makes a film amazing, could also make a film really bad, sometimes it's overdone. 02:13:39.556 --> 02:13:46.466 That one is just a perfect equilibrium, extremely hard. 02:13:47.296 --> 02:13:52.376 But, and radical, I have to say, so, but go and see it, 02:13:53.206 --> 02:13:56.636 because there is there is... 02:13:56.826 --> 02:13:59.756 Rupert Isaacson: The commandant of the Auschwitz concentration camp, Rudolf Hus, 02:14:00.226 --> 02:14:04.386 and his wife Hedwig, strive to build a dream life for their family in a house 02:14:04.416 --> 02:14:06.546 and garden next to the camp of Auschwitz. 02:14:06.546 --> 02:14:07.551 It's 02:14:07.551 --> 02:14:11.036 Diana Elbaum: the wall of the camp is the wall of the garden. 02:14:11.376 --> 02:14:12.046 Wow. 02:14:12.636 --> 02:14:12.936 Yeah. 02:14:13.296 --> 02:14:13.686 Yeah. 02:14:14.276 --> 02:14:14.646 Gosh. 02:14:15.206 --> 02:14:19.526 And it's amazing actors and the ways, I mean, also read about the film. 02:14:19.526 --> 02:14:20.606 Don't read too much about it. 02:14:20.606 --> 02:14:23.346 Don't see too much online about it, but go and see it. 02:14:23.396 --> 02:14:25.926 But the way he shot it was also very radical. 02:14:26.396 --> 02:14:29.726 And, and the more you get into those details, the more 02:14:29.726 --> 02:14:31.446 it's not about appreciation. 02:14:31.546 --> 02:14:36.236 Oh, sorry for my English, but it's not about the appreciation of the craft. 02:14:36.296 --> 02:14:38.096 It's not how complex it was. 02:14:38.366 --> 02:14:41.776 It's not how expensive it was is the fact that the results. 02:14:42.281 --> 02:14:47.481 Has an emotional, emotional, brings you into an emotional journey. 02:14:47.661 --> 02:14:48.291 Absolutely. 02:14:48.291 --> 02:14:50.981 Rupert Isaacson: The power of story, the power of stories, the power of change. 02:14:51.601 --> 02:14:52.981 We have the storytelling ape. 02:14:53.391 --> 02:14:56.431 We're not, you know, they call us sapiens sapiens. 02:14:56.431 --> 02:14:59.801 Yeah, I had this thing about saying that, but really all anything with 02:14:59.801 --> 02:15:02.921 the brain thinks there's nothing special to our species about 02:15:02.941 --> 02:15:04.771 thinking, but we have this larynx. 02:15:05.686 --> 02:15:09.316 And we tell stories other animals vocalize, and they can do that in a 02:15:09.316 --> 02:15:13.936 very complex way, but they don't make films, write poetry, create literature. 02:15:13.936 --> 02:15:14.396 That's us. 02:15:14.396 --> 02:15:15.336 That's our species. 02:15:15.846 --> 02:15:20.016 And it seems to be connected to healing at its very core. 02:15:20.326 --> 02:15:27.796 The, you know, the, the, the shamanistic experiences, you, you, you, you want to 02:15:27.796 --> 02:15:32.656 hunt, you must contact the, the spirits of the animals, you want healing, you 02:15:32.656 --> 02:15:37.246 must contact the spirits of the ancestors through a shaman, bring your story, why, 02:15:37.296 --> 02:15:41.226 why you need healing, the shaman goes into an older state of consciousness. 02:15:41.926 --> 02:15:46.156 MaKes contact, gets a story from the spirit world, brings it back, tells 02:15:46.156 --> 02:15:49.706 you that story, and then you and the sham go on to create a new story. 02:15:49.706 --> 02:15:50.236 That's the heal. 02:15:50.446 --> 02:15:52.116 But even that's going to the doctor, isn't it? 02:15:52.126 --> 02:15:54.436 You go to the doctor saying, Oh, my leg. 02:15:54.766 --> 02:15:58.876 And the doctor consults their literature, which is a story 02:15:58.916 --> 02:16:00.356 and tells you another story. 02:16:00.526 --> 02:16:03.186 And then you and that doctor create a new story of your 02:16:03.186 --> 02:16:04.446 leg, hopefully getting better. 02:16:04.846 --> 02:16:09.026 But I think that that, yeah, really, that's at the core of this. 02:16:09.816 --> 02:16:11.266 The story is healing. 02:16:11.266 --> 02:16:12.066 Story is change. 02:16:12.066 --> 02:16:13.956 As you said, it creates policy change. 02:16:13.956 --> 02:16:18.156 It creates ripple effects down the decades 02:16:18.686 --> 02:16:19.436 Diana Elbaum: further. 02:16:19.916 --> 02:16:20.226 Yeah. 02:16:20.226 --> 02:16:22.816 And you know, when you're speaking about healing, my, when I'm feeling 02:16:22.826 --> 02:16:26.816 really low, my favorite film, and it's not European, it's not art house. 02:16:26.866 --> 02:16:30.486 It's not anything to make, make me feel up again. 02:16:30.486 --> 02:16:33.656 It's like Kung Fu Panda, for example, you know, just love it. 02:16:34.376 --> 02:16:36.126 And it's like, don't explain. 02:16:36.626 --> 02:16:37.776 And it doesn't matter. 02:16:37.776 --> 02:16:42.816 And everybody has its own last place, you know, and just, I feel so good. 02:16:42.826 --> 02:16:44.366 And I was like, yeah, life is good. 02:16:44.476 --> 02:16:49.326 I have a tendency of liking the underdogs anyway, but, um, it's 02:16:49.326 --> 02:16:53.296 just one of those yeah, it's a place of refuge of the storytelling. 02:16:53.616 --> 02:16:55.006 It's a place of feeling. 02:16:55.606 --> 02:16:57.326 Yeah, it's exactly what you were saying. 02:16:57.336 --> 02:16:59.056 And it's also a place of community. 02:16:59.056 --> 02:17:00.636 And that's why the community. 02:17:01.576 --> 02:17:05.156 And also, you know what, I'm just going to give another example of 02:17:05.156 --> 02:17:06.606 me going to a lot of festivals. 02:17:06.616 --> 02:17:09.446 So now I was in Locarno and I was, you know, in Brussels, I 02:17:09.446 --> 02:17:10.496 had a festival and everything. 02:17:11.186 --> 02:17:13.626 Those are the places where you see the most amazing film. 02:17:13.626 --> 02:17:16.136 And it's actually the lowest way. 02:17:16.146 --> 02:17:20.276 It's a low cost way to see film, not because the film is not good, but 02:17:20.286 --> 02:17:24.576 because You get a package deal and you can see 25 films and they are 02:17:24.576 --> 02:17:28.806 happening everywhere in the world and every city almost there's at one point 02:17:28.806 --> 02:17:32.666 in another film festival documentary film festival short film festival 02:17:33.046 --> 02:17:35.496 and automatic film festival do it. 02:17:36.301 --> 02:17:42.081 You would be so amazed if you take like, I mean, not a week off, of course, because, 02:17:42.311 --> 02:17:46.191 but if you're like for a week, you go and see a film every day or every morning, 02:17:46.231 --> 02:17:50.061 or it's, it's just amazing experience, 02:17:50.221 --> 02:17:50.881 Rupert Isaacson: really. 02:17:51.371 --> 02:17:52.571 That's really interesting. 02:17:52.601 --> 02:17:54.121 And thank you for that. 02:17:54.141 --> 02:17:57.301 That that's the other thing I've only shameful. 02:17:57.321 --> 02:17:59.191 I've only ever been to film festivals and I've been trying 02:17:59.191 --> 02:18:00.351 to sell a movie of my own. 02:18:01.891 --> 02:18:07.311 It's never occurred to me much as I love movie and story, um, I guess because 02:18:07.311 --> 02:18:12.011 I'm often so busy making stories that yes, you're absolutely right to go 02:18:12.011 --> 02:18:19.121 and use film festival like going to a music festival to suddenly go and 02:18:19.231 --> 02:18:26.881 expose yourself to a whole smorgasbord of storytelling and to dive into that. 02:18:27.511 --> 02:18:28.671 For a week of your life. 02:18:28.951 --> 02:18:29.301 Yeah. 02:18:29.471 --> 02:18:29.841 Diana Elbaum: Yeah. 02:18:29.841 --> 02:18:33.141 And just be surprised and no reading. 02:18:33.161 --> 02:18:33.901 Just go in. 02:18:34.271 --> 02:18:35.841 That's the best way to go and see a film. 02:18:35.841 --> 02:18:37.241 Not knowing anything about the film. 02:18:37.451 --> 02:18:37.781 So that's, 02:18:38.381 --> 02:18:40.241 Rupert Isaacson: that's the last moral of the, of, of the 02:18:40.301 --> 02:18:41.601 interviews is go to film fest. 02:18:41.601 --> 02:18:44.001 Go to your, go to your city's film festival. 02:18:44.181 --> 02:18:44.851 Diana Elbaum: Absolutely. 02:18:44.851 --> 02:18:46.251 And for the younger audience. 02:18:46.501 --> 02:18:49.521 If you have a young audience listening, go and volunteer. 02:18:49.521 --> 02:18:50.671 It's even more fun. 02:18:51.981 --> 02:18:52.261 Yeah. 02:18:52.411 --> 02:18:56.811 They're always looking for volunteers and anybody actually go back to the 02:18:56.811 --> 02:19:00.311 advice of if you want to get into the film business, one of the way to start. 02:19:00.581 --> 02:19:04.091 A lot of people that I know have started in film business start to 02:19:04.091 --> 02:19:08.161 volunteer in their local film festival because they always want benevolence. 02:19:08.201 --> 02:19:11.141 So you, of course, don't make any money, but you make a lot of friends 02:19:11.141 --> 02:19:14.681 and usually you end up drinking a lot at the parties and whatever. 02:19:14.681 --> 02:19:16.681 But the thing is that you get to know people. 02:19:17.186 --> 02:19:20.316 You get to see directors, you get to see the guests that are coming. 02:19:20.386 --> 02:19:23.756 Every festival has usually guests or, you know, the films are coming 02:19:23.756 --> 02:19:26.026 with a crew or an actor and etc. 02:19:26.026 --> 02:19:27.296 And that's how you start. 02:19:27.476 --> 02:19:32.126 If you, you know, have no other way and, or if you're really interested, 02:19:32.166 --> 02:19:36.776 you start like that and it's amazing how it's a welcoming community. 02:19:36.796 --> 02:19:39.956 And also because there's another thing that I have to tell you, 02:19:39.966 --> 02:19:43.946 which is a little more practical, is the fact that I've hired a lot of 02:19:43.956 --> 02:19:46.146 people in my life I've never asked. 02:19:47.481 --> 02:19:54.371 Never ever ask what kind of diploma they had and it's still happening. 02:19:55.081 --> 02:19:59.651 It's a little more complex today, but the experience outweighs the diploma. 02:19:59.701 --> 02:20:02.241 So it's not saying that you don't need to study. 02:20:02.251 --> 02:20:03.731 Yes, you do need to study. 02:20:04.146 --> 02:20:09.526 Maybe not cinema, maybe you're in legal or your business and you love 02:20:09.766 --> 02:20:15.726 cinema, you know, it's just an amazing environment in which to work because 02:20:17.766 --> 02:20:20.836 it's just, it's just a great environment. 02:20:20.916 --> 02:20:25.826 I can't put more words, you find like everywhere also crap 02:20:25.826 --> 02:20:28.386 people, but mainly over my years. 02:20:29.041 --> 02:20:30.641 amazing, amazing people. 02:20:30.901 --> 02:20:32.861 Rupert Isaacson: Well, you heard it from Diana, people. 02:20:32.951 --> 02:20:37.661 If you're looking, you young people, if you're looking and middle aged, if you're 02:20:37.661 --> 02:20:43.981 looking to get into the film biz, go volunteer at your local film festival. 02:20:43.991 --> 02:20:45.571 What perfect advice. 02:20:45.841 --> 02:20:46.991 Join the community. 02:20:46.991 --> 02:20:47.731 Diana. 02:20:48.641 --> 02:20:50.191 How do people contact you? 02:20:50.211 --> 02:20:52.181 Is, is that where, how do they find you? 02:20:52.441 --> 02:20:55.311 Let's name of your company website. 02:20:55.861 --> 02:20:58.211 Can people write questions to you? 02:20:58.521 --> 02:20:58.661 How 02:20:58.661 --> 02:20:59.331 Diana Elbaum: do they do that? 02:20:59.831 --> 02:21:00.561 Oh my God. 02:21:01.201 --> 02:21:02.491 That's like the hardest thing. 02:21:02.871 --> 02:21:05.111 If you, if you type in my name, you're going to. 02:21:05.431 --> 02:21:10.281 pretty much fine about everything about me and, and, and my information. 02:21:10.301 --> 02:21:14.001 I'm if you want to write me I will not take scripts. 02:21:14.001 --> 02:21:18.961 Unfortunately you have to be very, very concise about an idea you might have. 02:21:19.201 --> 02:21:21.521 It might take a lot of time for me to answer. 02:21:21.981 --> 02:21:27.331 And yeah, I mean, my, I have that many, as many hours as everybody else in the day. 02:21:27.401 --> 02:21:29.461 Rupert Isaacson: Well, here's my, here's what I would suggest for people. 02:21:29.461 --> 02:21:33.341 If you've got it, if you've got a question for Diana, because I know, cause 02:21:33.401 --> 02:21:38.181 I worked with Diana a bit and it can sometimes take quite a long time to reply 02:21:38.271 --> 02:21:41.921 to an email and I am guilty as charged the same thing because we're all busy. 02:21:42.411 --> 02:21:43.571 But right to me. 02:21:44.296 --> 02:21:48.006 With a question for Diana and I will put it to her. 02:21:48.246 --> 02:21:51.426 And what I might do is I'm, I think I will collect those questions 02:21:51.606 --> 02:21:52.956 like I'm doing for everybody. 02:21:53.226 --> 02:21:57.356 And Diana, would you consent to come back on and answer those questions 02:21:57.416 --> 02:21:59.636 in a, in a second, second podcast? 02:21:59.636 --> 02:22:00.056 It's pleasure 02:22:00.296 --> 02:22:02.816 Diana Elbaum: with you and with your listener, with pleasure. 02:22:03.196 --> 02:22:05.116 And probably we can open other doors. 02:22:05.561 --> 02:22:06.841 Yeah, it was great pleasure. 02:22:07.101 --> 02:22:07.661 Wonderful. 02:22:08.921 --> 02:22:09.191 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 02:22:09.191 --> 02:22:09.931 Well, thank you. 02:22:10.231 --> 02:22:11.221 Thank you so much. 02:22:11.221 --> 02:22:13.431 I look forward to that, that follow up. 02:22:13.511 --> 02:22:15.751 There's a bunch more questions I want to ask. 02:22:16.171 --> 02:22:18.241 So till next time. 02:22:19.761 --> 02:22:20.571 Absolutely. 02:22:20.671 --> 02:22:21.341 I'll be here. 02:22:21.721 --> 02:22:24.291 And thank you so much for sharing all of this with us. 02:22:24.551 --> 02:22:25.581 I'm extremely grateful. 02:22:26.541 --> 02:22:26.871 Ah, it 02:22:27.031 --> 02:22:27.841 Diana Elbaum: was a pleasure. 02:22:28.301 --> 02:22:28.871 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you. 02:22:29.011 --> 02:22:30.251 Okay, till next time. 02:22:31.261 --> 02:22:31.611 Bye bye. 02:22:32.443 --> 02:22:33.553 Thank you for joining us. 02:22:33.583 --> 02:22:35.413 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:22:35.651 --> 02:22:40.691 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:22:40.691 --> 02:22:45.881 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:22:46.589 --> 02:22:51.237 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:22:51.237 --> 02:22:53.247 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:22:53.574 --> 02:22:57.324 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:22:57.324 --> 02:23:00.564 for riders on 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