WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:02.554 Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Channelwaves. 2 00:00:02.554 --> 00:00:04.234 I'm your host, Stephen Kellam. 3 00:00:04.234 --> 00:00:06.132 I'd like to thank everyone for joining us, 4 00:00:06.132 --> 00:00:07.956 all the listeners for joining us today. 5 00:00:07.956 --> 00:00:11.412 By the time you hear this, it will be the new year. 6 00:00:11.412 --> 00:00:14.100 Obviously, with my background, we are 7 00:00:14.100 --> 00:00:17.674 doing this podcast during the holidays. 8 00:00:17.674 --> 00:00:20.404 So I'd like to welcome in my guests today. 9 00:00:20.404 --> 00:00:21.828 And by the way, this is the first time 10 00:00:21.828 --> 00:00:24.964 I've done a podcast with two individuals, done many 11 00:00:24.964 --> 00:00:26.946 webinars, but first time I've done a podcast. 12 00:00:26.946 --> 00:00:29.240 So should be interesting. 13 00:00:29.930 --> 00:00:32.738 So joining us today is Heather Margolis, 14 00:00:32.738 --> 00:00:35.538 SVP of Marketing at 360 Insights. 15 00:00:35.538 --> 00:00:36.810 Welcome, Heather. 16 00:00:36.810 --> 00:00:38.490 Thanks, Steven. 17 00:00:38.490 --> 00:00:42.242 And Larry Walsh, who is the CEO 18 00:00:42.242 --> 00:00:45.122 and Chief Analyst at Channelnomics. Welcome, Larry. 19 00:00:45.122 --> 00:00:46.444 Steven, how are you? 20 00:00:46.444 --> 00:00:48.108 I'm doing really well. 21 00:00:48.108 --> 00:00:49.458 Hi, Larry. 22 00:00:49.458 --> 00:00:50.670 Hi, Heather. 23 00:00:51.570 --> 00:00:53.300 How are you? 24 00:00:53.300 --> 00:00:56.868 Are we going to go down that route right? No, no, wait. 25 00:00:56.868 --> 00:00:57.428 Let me do this. 26 00:00:57.428 --> 00:00:58.708 Let me know. 27 00:00:58.708 --> 00:01:00.458 Heather and I are from Boston. 28 00:01:00.458 --> 00:01:02.800 Okay, Heather, you're not bettah than me. 29 00:01:04.209 --> 00:01:05.444 Never bettah. 30 00:01:05.444 --> 00:01:06.890 But I'm wicked pissa. 31 00:01:06.890 --> 00:01:08.824 You are wicked pissa. Wow. 32 00:01:08.824 --> 00:01:11.502 Here's the interesting part of doing a podcast. 33 00:01:11.502 --> 00:01:12.808 One, it's not live. 34 00:01:12.808 --> 00:01:15.336 Two, we can edit everything. Three, it lives on. 35 00:01:15.336 --> 00:01:16.744 Are you going to edit that? 36 00:01:16.744 --> 00:01:17.848 No, I'm not going to edit that. 37 00:01:17.848 --> 00:01:19.122 I'm not editing, listeners. 38 00:01:19.122 --> 00:01:21.378 listeners and viewers, we haven't 39 00:01:21.378 --> 00:01:24.092 edited anything throughout this podcast at all. 40 00:01:24.092 --> 00:01:25.820 And that's the whole. How about the deal? 41 00:01:25.820 --> 00:01:28.172 Here's a promise, listeners and viewers, if you stay 42 00:01:28.172 --> 00:01:30.284 tuned and stay through us the whole time, we 43 00:01:30.284 --> 00:01:31.648 promise we're not going to edit anything. 44 00:01:31.648 --> 00:01:34.256 Everything Larry says is going to come out 45 00:01:34.256 --> 00:01:35.536 and we're not going to filter anything. 46 00:01:35.536 --> 00:01:40.032 There's still, however, whatever Heather says, she gets 47 00:01:40.032 --> 00:01:41.732 to say, whether she wants it to show 48 00:01:41.732 --> 00:01:43.188 or not, that's totally up to her. 49 00:01:43.188 --> 00:01:45.070 That's carte blanche, Larry. 50 00:01:45.810 --> 00:01:47.866 One take, buddy. One take, Larry. 51 00:01:47.866 --> 00:01:49.070 One take, Larry. 52 00:01:50.450 --> 00:01:53.732 Sorry, Stephen, what was your third like? 53 00:01:53.732 --> 00:01:55.076 I was just going to know. 54 00:01:55.076 --> 00:01:56.430 Brace for incoming. 55 00:02:00.370 --> 00:02:03.400 I think my, this is being played in the new year. 56 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:07.228 One of my resolutions is going to be to swear less. 57 00:02:07.228 --> 00:02:11.164 So maybe I'll try in this webinar to start. 58 00:02:11.164 --> 00:02:12.876 You know, Heather, I like that idea 59 00:02:12.876 --> 00:02:14.898 because it could be like carbon offsets. 60 00:02:14.898 --> 00:02:18.940 What you give up, I'll absorb. Exactly. Yeah. See? 61 00:02:18.940 --> 00:02:19.954 Oh, my gosh. 62 00:02:19.954 --> 00:02:22.304 Okay, I'm just going to be the referee on this, right? 63 00:02:22.304 --> 00:02:25.392 So it's interesting, I stopped swearing just in 64 00:02:25.392 --> 00:02:27.376 general, especially with all my kids around. 65 00:02:27.376 --> 00:02:29.408 But now all three of my children 66 00:02:29.408 --> 00:02:31.440 are out of the home for now. 67 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:33.860 So technically it's fair game. 68 00:02:33.860 --> 00:02:35.412 But I don't think I can go back. 69 00:02:35.412 --> 00:02:36.960 I don't know if I could go back. 70 00:02:38.050 --> 00:02:41.178 What's our code for getting back on topic? 71 00:02:41.178 --> 00:02:42.270 Pineapple. 72 00:02:43.110 --> 00:02:45.262 Safe word is banana. Banana. 73 00:02:45.262 --> 00:02:46.350 Pineapple. 74 00:02:46.350 --> 00:02:48.872 Pick a fruit, whatever. Pineapple. Banana. Let's go. 75 00:02:48.872 --> 00:02:49.950 Pineapple. Lemonade. 76 00:02:49.950 --> 00:02:52.056 Anyways, once again, thanks, everyone, 77 00:02:52.056 --> 00:02:53.528 for joining us today. 78 00:02:53.528 --> 00:02:56.888 Our mission today and what we're going to do is 79 00:02:56.888 --> 00:02:59.884 we're going to talk a little bit about 2024, and 80 00:02:59.884 --> 00:03:02.418 we may even go into a little hindsight because Larry 81 00:03:02.418 --> 00:03:04.550 was just talking while we're waiting for you, Heather. 82 00:03:05.690 --> 00:03:08.540 Don't worry about it. Outing me. 83 00:03:08.540 --> 00:03:10.652 We only waited six minutes. Totally fine. 84 00:03:10.652 --> 00:03:12.172 Listeners don't care. You're here. 85 00:03:12.172 --> 00:03:13.362 That's all that matters. 86 00:03:13.362 --> 00:03:15.852 That Larry said 2023 was a tough year and 87 00:03:15.852 --> 00:03:17.388 it'd be interesting as we go back and we 88 00:03:17.388 --> 00:03:18.508 talk about some of the things that made it 89 00:03:18.508 --> 00:03:21.636 difficult and maybe even during the middle of 2023, 90 00:03:21.636 --> 00:03:23.402 we all thought it was going to be terrible. 91 00:03:23.402 --> 00:03:24.868 I thought after Q1, I was 92 00:03:24.868 --> 00:03:26.724 going, this is going down the drain. Right? 93 00:03:26.724 --> 00:03:28.308 And interestingly enough, for many of 94 00:03:28.308 --> 00:03:30.036 us, it turned out pretty well. 95 00:03:30.036 --> 00:03:31.492 But I think what everyone's looking for 96 00:03:31.492 --> 00:03:32.644 is what's going to happen in 2024. 97 00:03:32.644 --> 00:03:35.668 And hopefully out of this, we'll get a little bit 98 00:03:35.668 --> 00:03:38.548 about what you can expect in 2024 and things you 99 00:03:38.548 --> 00:03:40.468 could look forward to and maybe some things you should 100 00:03:40.468 --> 00:03:43.492 be questions you should be asking and issues you maybe 101 00:03:43.492 --> 00:03:46.668 need to resolve to do well in 2024. 102 00:03:46.668 --> 00:03:48.364 Because, I mean, that's all we're trying to do, right? 103 00:03:48.364 --> 00:03:50.844 Figuring out what do we need to look at, how do we 104 00:03:50.844 --> 00:03:52.588 need to execute and how do we need to work on it, 105 00:03:52.588 --> 00:03:54.652 and how do we need to be successful in 2024? 106 00:03:54.652 --> 00:03:55.612 I think, I don't know. 107 00:03:55.612 --> 00:03:58.018 That's my personal message for me and my organization. 108 00:03:58.018 --> 00:03:59.862 I don't think it's a lot different for most folks. 109 00:03:59.862 --> 00:04:00.460 Right? 110 00:04:01.070 --> 00:04:06.940 If it is, tell me, Larry, you're the. Yeah. 111 00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:12.128 So since I've already been labeled a curmudgeon, I didn't 112 00:04:12.128 --> 00:04:14.140 even have to go down that path, did I? No. 113 00:04:16.430 --> 00:04:18.564 People ask me this all the time, is that what I 114 00:04:18.564 --> 00:04:20.452 think is going to 2024 is going to be like? 115 00:04:20.452 --> 00:04:22.084 And I tell them is that if they 116 00:04:22.084 --> 00:04:24.580 didn't like 23, they're going to hate 24. 117 00:04:25.510 --> 00:04:28.120 24 is still going to be a rough year. 118 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.168 And a lot of it has to do with a 119 00:04:32.168 --> 00:04:35.064 lot of caution and spending on the customer side. 120 00:04:35.064 --> 00:04:36.870 There's still a lot of conservation 121 00:04:37.530 --> 00:04:40.690 by businesses across the spectrum. 122 00:04:40.690 --> 00:04:44.652 SMB and enterprise, most particularly, corporate debt, is 123 00:04:44.652 --> 00:04:47.522 weighing heavily on a lot of vendors. 124 00:04:47.522 --> 00:04:49.468 So that's a lot of pressure on the 125 00:04:49.468 --> 00:04:51.568 channel organizations and that's not going to be 126 00:04:51.568 --> 00:04:54.140 alleviated until the second half of next year. 127 00:04:55.070 --> 00:04:56.192 That's the bad news. 128 00:04:56.192 --> 00:05:00.830 It's the first half of '24 that's going to be rough. 129 00:05:00.830 --> 00:05:02.868 The second half of '24 is going to be a 130 00:05:02.868 --> 00:05:05.920 ramp and that ramp is going to be leading into 131 00:05:06.770 --> 00:05:10.858 what I believe, and this is somewhat the consensus amongst 132 00:05:10.858 --> 00:05:13.572 the economists that I follow and interact with, is that 133 00:05:13.572 --> 00:05:15.864 '25 is going to be a really good year. 134 00:05:15.864 --> 00:05:18.168 The one bit of caution I'd have for everyone is 135 00:05:18.168 --> 00:05:20.984 that if you're looking at the early analyst numbers in 136 00:05:20.984 --> 00:05:25.608 terms of predicting IT spend, Gartner in October came out 137 00:05:25.608 --> 00:05:27.884 and said that it spend in '24 is going to 138 00:05:27.884 --> 00:05:29.868 be up 8% year over year. 139 00:05:29.868 --> 00:05:33.356 It's not just dismiss that number whole 140 00:05:33.356 --> 00:05:35.340 cloth, it's just not going to happen. 141 00:05:35.340 --> 00:05:41.244 AI is not going to have the impact on spending in '24 142 00:05:41.244 --> 00:05:44.672 is going to be a slow ramp in the '25 and '26. 143 00:05:44.672 --> 00:05:46.288 '25 and '26 is when you're going to 144 00:05:46.288 --> 00:05:50.886 see AI have a real impact on spending. 145 00:05:50.886 --> 00:05:53.456 But '24 is going to be another transition year. 146 00:05:53.456 --> 00:05:57.124 But it's going to feel bad like '23 was in the 147 00:05:57.124 --> 00:05:59.540 first half and then it's going to start to really feel 148 00:05:59.540 --> 00:06:02.820 a lot better in the second half of '24. 149 00:06:02.820 --> 00:06:05.572 Hey, look, Larry, can you define that and break that? 150 00:06:05.572 --> 00:06:06.532 Maybe we can break that down. 151 00:06:06.532 --> 00:06:07.908 And then, Heather, you can weigh in on how 152 00:06:07.908 --> 00:06:09.348 you think incentives are going to fit into that 153 00:06:09.348 --> 00:06:11.748 because you said a lot of things, right? 154 00:06:11.748 --> 00:06:13.524 One, you said the first half is going to 155 00:06:13.524 --> 00:06:15.044 be bad and then it's going to turn good. 156 00:06:15.044 --> 00:06:17.308 It a six month bridge is not that long, right? 157 00:06:17.308 --> 00:06:18.892 We're not that far away from it. 158 00:06:18.892 --> 00:06:21.610 So maybe one you can address that. 159 00:06:21.610 --> 00:06:22.844 Are we holding on or are 160 00:06:22.844 --> 00:06:24.396 we investing to get there, right? 161 00:06:24.396 --> 00:06:26.316 So that's one follow up question for you. 162 00:06:26.316 --> 00:06:28.668 The second one is, I think you have to define AI and 163 00:06:28.668 --> 00:06:36.032 what it means and why you think AI will be slow or 164 00:06:36.032 --> 00:06:38.768 why will cause a slowdown and then cause a ramp up, right? 165 00:06:38.768 --> 00:06:40.518 Because people are pretty excited about AI. 166 00:06:40.518 --> 00:06:42.224 So maybe you can address those two things the 167 00:06:42.224 --> 00:06:44.202 first half of the year and then maybe defining 168 00:06:44.202 --> 00:06:46.148 AI a little bit and why it went there. 169 00:06:46.148 --> 00:06:47.498 And then, Heather, maybe you can jump 170 00:06:47.498 --> 00:06:49.108 in on the incentive piece of that. 171 00:06:49.108 --> 00:06:53.588 So look, economic conditions are not that bad. 172 00:06:53.588 --> 00:06:56.424 The problem is that there's a lot of, like I 173 00:06:56.424 --> 00:06:58.830 said, the real big problem right now is debt. 174 00:06:58.830 --> 00:07:01.048 Corporate debt worldwide is double what 175 00:07:01.048 --> 00:07:02.200 it was five years ago. 176 00:07:02.200 --> 00:07:05.432 It's now totaling almost $80 trillion. 177 00:07:05.432 --> 00:07:07.228 And a lot of things that you're seeing 178 00:07:07.228 --> 00:07:09.788 that's happening in the market, particularly with technology 179 00:07:09.788 --> 00:07:13.346 vendors trimming their budgets, trimming their staff. 180 00:07:13.346 --> 00:07:16.044 It's on a daily basis now that I'm hearing about people 181 00:07:16.044 --> 00:07:19.676 being reorganized or what is the one I heard today? 182 00:07:19.676 --> 00:07:23.728 Somebody that we know being reorganized out, which I 183 00:07:23.728 --> 00:07:26.510 thought was a really clever way of describing it. 184 00:07:26.510 --> 00:07:27.766 Is there an investment? 185 00:07:27.766 --> 00:07:29.104 No, there's no investment because you 186 00:07:29.104 --> 00:07:30.032 can't get money right now. 187 00:07:30.032 --> 00:07:31.446 Money is too expensive. 188 00:07:31.446 --> 00:07:32.932 So the only place to get money, 189 00:07:32.932 --> 00:07:35.732 right, the investor community really isn't interested 190 00:07:35.732 --> 00:07:38.122 in putting more money into businesses. 191 00:07:38.122 --> 00:07:39.844 The only place they can go to get 192 00:07:39.844 --> 00:07:44.250 net new investment is through banks interest rates. 193 00:07:44.250 --> 00:07:46.196 Prime interest rates are still remaining high. 194 00:07:46.196 --> 00:07:48.622 The Federal Reserve and the central banks in Europe 195 00:07:48.622 --> 00:07:51.368 are going to decrease the interest rates, but those 196 00:07:51.368 --> 00:07:53.256 decreases are only going to come in the second 197 00:07:53.256 --> 00:07:55.096 quarter and into the next half. 198 00:07:55.096 --> 00:07:56.696 That's why I'm saying the first half 199 00:07:56.696 --> 00:07:59.822 is going to be a little rocky. 200 00:07:59.822 --> 00:08:03.084 But as we start to move up into '25, you're going to 201 00:08:03.084 --> 00:08:05.922 start to see conditions ease up and not to get political. 202 00:08:05.922 --> 00:08:08.428 Once we get past the elections next year, things will start 203 00:08:08.428 --> 00:08:12.086 to feel a little bit more stable in terms of AI. 204 00:08:12.086 --> 00:08:14.768 AI is not a driver of spending. Right now. 205 00:08:14.768 --> 00:08:17.302 A lot of companies are releasing AI tools, 206 00:08:17.302 --> 00:08:22.166 AI features, but this is more around enriching 207 00:08:22.166 --> 00:08:24.468 experiences and it may lead to retention, but 208 00:08:24.468 --> 00:08:26.964 it's not leading to net new spend. 209 00:08:26.964 --> 00:08:31.002 And even when you look at the pc market, for instance, 210 00:08:31.002 --> 00:08:34.408 which is a bit of a bellwether, it is projected to 211 00:08:34.408 --> 00:08:41.086 start ticking back up sometime in '24 and into '25 HP. 212 00:08:41.086 --> 00:08:43.847 Lenovo have already announced that they're going to 213 00:08:43.847 --> 00:08:47.918 be releasing AI enabled PCs, but they haven't 214 00:08:47.918 --> 00:08:49.532 defined what the use cases are yet. 215 00:08:49.532 --> 00:08:51.452 They haven't really said what this is going to be about. 216 00:08:51.452 --> 00:08:54.348 And a lot of companies are holding back on 217 00:08:54.348 --> 00:08:57.452 their net new investments until they actually see what 218 00:08:57.452 --> 00:09:00.962 the AI infrastructure needs are, what the new processes 219 00:09:00.962 --> 00:09:02.528 are going to be, what the new endpoints are 220 00:09:02.528 --> 00:09:03.712 going to have to look like. 221 00:09:03.712 --> 00:09:06.410 So there's still a bit of time before there's 222 00:09:06.990 --> 00:09:10.570 a trigger on net new spending relative to AI. 223 00:09:11.550 --> 00:09:13.808 Okay, well, so, Heather, it's kind of interesting 224 00:09:13.808 --> 00:09:15.920 for me to listen to that, right, because 225 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:18.772 every call that I'm on, people are talking 226 00:09:18.772 --> 00:09:21.268 about how incentives tie into what we do. 227 00:09:21.268 --> 00:09:23.332 So I understand there's a six month, but 228 00:09:23.332 --> 00:09:25.396 how do we prep through that six months? 229 00:09:25.396 --> 00:09:26.808 To get six months is actually a pretty 230 00:09:26.808 --> 00:09:29.688 short window to get to that 2025. Right. 231 00:09:29.688 --> 00:09:31.768 And so how do we leverage things like 232 00:09:31.768 --> 00:09:34.200 you do what you do to make. 233 00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:36.862 Well, I think if you already have an incentives 234 00:09:36.862 --> 00:09:39.868 program, certainly think about how you're using it to 235 00:09:39.868 --> 00:09:42.940 get your partners doing the things that will help 236 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:46.428 them get through this challenging time and help you 237 00:09:46.428 --> 00:09:48.810 sell more product in that time. 238 00:09:48.810 --> 00:09:51.712 So instead of running the same old incentive that 239 00:09:51.712 --> 00:09:55.094 you always have on a sales incentive on selling 240 00:09:55.094 --> 00:09:57.926 the same thing, maybe you do a volume incentive, 241 00:09:57.926 --> 00:10:00.960 maybe you add in market development funds or business 242 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:03.956 development funds to get them to do the things 243 00:10:03.956 --> 00:10:05.380 that will get them in front of people. 244 00:10:05.380 --> 00:10:08.628 Because now you're not just trying to get in front 245 00:10:08.628 --> 00:10:12.554 of the right person who needs your it solutions. 246 00:10:12.554 --> 00:10:14.072 Now you're trying to get in front of the right 247 00:10:14.072 --> 00:10:16.850 person who needs your IT solutions and has budget. 248 00:10:17.510 --> 00:10:21.656 So helping the partners find the right people for 249 00:10:21.656 --> 00:10:25.480 that mix is super important more than ever. 250 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:27.916 So I would tie incentives to activities like 251 00:10:27.916 --> 00:10:30.268 marketing sales, the things that you're doing with 252 00:10:30.268 --> 00:10:33.458 partners that are helping to get your solutions 253 00:10:33.458 --> 00:10:35.202 instead of your competitor solutions. 254 00:10:35.202 --> 00:10:37.132 It's less about finding the people 255 00:10:37.132 --> 00:10:38.386 who don't have a solution. 256 00:10:38.386 --> 00:10:41.328 And then it is about finding the people who have 257 00:10:41.328 --> 00:10:43.888 a solution they're unhappy with or that isn't going to 258 00:10:43.888 --> 00:10:45.740 serve them in the next year or two. 259 00:10:46.350 --> 00:10:48.512 And then I think it's also super important 260 00:10:48.512 --> 00:10:51.412 that partners are communicating more than ever. 261 00:10:51.412 --> 00:10:55.578 I think when we're in tough economic 262 00:10:55.578 --> 00:10:58.160 times, everyone just slashes marketing right away. 263 00:10:58.930 --> 00:11:02.484 And I think that when you come out on the 264 00:11:02.484 --> 00:11:06.052 other end, the people who kept marketing throughout, maybe they 265 00:11:06.052 --> 00:11:07.924 bootstrapped a little bit more, maybe they were a little 266 00:11:07.924 --> 00:11:09.928 more savvy about where they were spending their money, but 267 00:11:09.928 --> 00:11:13.288 they kept marketing throughout are the ones that come out 268 00:11:13.288 --> 00:11:15.128 on the other end and still have a business and 269 00:11:15.128 --> 00:11:18.748 still have brand recognition and still have customers, versus the 270 00:11:18.748 --> 00:11:21.228 ones who just slash all marketing and say, that's it, 271 00:11:21.228 --> 00:11:24.060 we're not going to market anymore and don't have anybody 272 00:11:24.060 --> 00:11:25.160 at the other end. 273 00:11:26.570 --> 00:11:29.388 If you end up with nobody at the other end, hey, 274 00:11:29.388 --> 00:11:32.496 Larry, I think I'd like both you guys take on this. 275 00:11:32.496 --> 00:11:36.496 The place where I'm seeing AI and it's a part of what 276 00:11:36.496 --> 00:11:39.900 we offer, is so many having to do with more, with less. 277 00:11:40.590 --> 00:11:41.856 How did you say that? 278 00:11:41.856 --> 00:11:43.604 What was the term you used that 279 00:11:43.604 --> 00:11:45.476 they laid some people off out? 280 00:11:45.476 --> 00:11:47.972 What was the reorging out? Reorging out? 281 00:11:47.972 --> 00:11:49.764 Yeah, reorging out. 282 00:11:49.764 --> 00:11:52.212 And while we're all really working hard to help 283 00:11:52.212 --> 00:11:56.558 our community and people find jobs and we're hiring, 284 00:11:56.558 --> 00:11:58.808 I think there is some growth there. 285 00:11:58.808 --> 00:12:01.896 But what I'm seeing is using AI in some simple 286 00:12:01.896 --> 00:12:05.614 forms to do more with less in our world, we're 287 00:12:05.614 --> 00:12:07.612 trying to figure out how do we do that, right? 288 00:12:07.612 --> 00:12:09.468 If you have a small team, how do they 289 00:12:09.468 --> 00:12:11.612 do the things Heather, that you're talking about. 290 00:12:11.612 --> 00:12:16.380 Some of that is changing roles, learning, using 291 00:12:16.380 --> 00:12:19.122 AI or new tools, automation to be successful, 292 00:12:19.122 --> 00:12:21.370 to try to figure out how to get. 293 00:12:21.370 --> 00:12:25.712 So that's where I'm seeing AI being used in 294 00:12:25.712 --> 00:12:27.744 the actual channel and in the tech stack, the 295 00:12:27.744 --> 00:12:29.664 place where I live, because people are trying to 296 00:12:29.664 --> 00:12:32.452 figure out how to be more efficient. Yeah. 297 00:12:32.452 --> 00:12:34.516 So I wouldn't say do more with less, 298 00:12:34.516 --> 00:12:36.880 I would say do more with the same. 299 00:12:39.250 --> 00:12:40.532 That's a timing thing. Right. 300 00:12:40.532 --> 00:12:41.796 Okay, you're right. 301 00:12:41.796 --> 00:12:43.748 Maybe where they used to be at a level set or 302 00:12:43.748 --> 00:12:45.752 where are you going to be at the beginning of 2024? 303 00:12:45.752 --> 00:12:49.518 No, I would say that I run marketing. 304 00:12:49.518 --> 00:12:53.432 Looking at my team, we haven't cut. 305 00:12:53.432 --> 00:12:55.300 We don't have plans to cut. 306 00:12:55.850 --> 00:12:57.690 We're not hiring. 307 00:12:57.690 --> 00:13:00.520 We don't have plans to hire, but 308 00:13:01.770 --> 00:13:05.068 we are using AI right now to. 309 00:13:05.068 --> 00:13:08.652 Oh, that social post shouldn't just go out from 310 00:13:08.652 --> 00:13:11.312 the corporate logo and from me, it should also 311 00:13:11.312 --> 00:13:13.376 go out from our entire sales team. 312 00:13:13.376 --> 00:13:15.200 But they need a little help. 313 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.064 So the sales team can pop a social post 314 00:13:18.064 --> 00:13:20.838 into AI and put it in a different tone. 315 00:13:20.838 --> 00:13:21.920 That's more them. 316 00:13:22.690 --> 00:13:25.540 We're using it to verticalize content. 317 00:13:25.540 --> 00:13:28.074 So instead of writing one ebook 318 00:13:28.074 --> 00:13:29.962 for, we sell into four verticals. 319 00:13:29.962 --> 00:13:32.276 Instead of writing one ebook for vertical one 320 00:13:32.276 --> 00:13:34.360 and a second ebook for vertical two. 321 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:36.888 Ebooks take about month, six weeks, 322 00:13:36.888 --> 00:13:38.740 lots of different people's time. 323 00:13:39.430 --> 00:13:41.918 We're writing the ebook once and then we're 324 00:13:41.918 --> 00:13:45.736 putting it into an AI tool and having 325 00:13:45.736 --> 00:13:48.782 the tone changed based on a different vertical. 326 00:13:48.782 --> 00:13:51.132 So it's not perfect, it doesn't write it for 327 00:13:51.132 --> 00:13:54.300 us, but it does like 40% of the work. 328 00:13:54.300 --> 00:13:56.572 So instead of it taking us six weeks to do that 329 00:13:56.572 --> 00:14:02.480 second one, it's taking us two weeks and just in general 330 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:05.664 getting more reach from what we already have today. 331 00:14:05.664 --> 00:14:10.510 Instead, know the same old, same old. 332 00:14:10.510 --> 00:14:12.884 Like I said, you need to be out in front 333 00:14:12.884 --> 00:14:16.282 more than your competitors to make it through a recession. 334 00:14:16.282 --> 00:14:16.612 Yeah. 335 00:14:16.612 --> 00:14:18.036 Look, I want to go back to 336 00:14:18.036 --> 00:14:21.330 something that Heather was saying about marketing. 337 00:14:21.330 --> 00:14:24.132 It's a mistake that companies make is that the first 338 00:14:24.132 --> 00:14:26.504 thing they do is they cut what they consider to 339 00:14:26.504 --> 00:14:28.770 be the soft skills of the cost centers. 340 00:14:30.150 --> 00:14:31.300 It's a problem. 341 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:34.552 The biggest issue that we're seeing with a number 342 00:14:34.552 --> 00:14:37.580 of the companies that we work with and support, 343 00:14:37.580 --> 00:14:40.402 it's not that they don't have good products, it's 344 00:14:40.402 --> 00:14:43.068 that nobody knows what these products are. 345 00:14:43.068 --> 00:14:46.460 And so it is vitally important to keep 346 00:14:46.460 --> 00:14:49.958 lines of communications not only open, but investing 347 00:14:49.958 --> 00:14:51.360 in them and keeping them strong. 348 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:52.480 And Heather's right. 349 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:54.780 As much as I want to disagree with her. 350 00:14:57.230 --> 00:14:59.936 By the way, Larry, you only get to say that once 351 00:14:59.936 --> 00:15:03.556 on this podcast that he wants to disagree with me. 352 00:15:03.556 --> 00:15:04.538 It's the holidays. 353 00:15:04.538 --> 00:15:06.590 I'm being generous anyways. 354 00:15:08.290 --> 00:15:10.868 But there is, you have to keep 355 00:15:10.868 --> 00:15:13.150 feeding that top of the funnel. 356 00:15:14.530 --> 00:15:16.388 This is where a lot of companies are 357 00:15:16.388 --> 00:15:19.256 struggling with because the partners are out there. 358 00:15:19.256 --> 00:15:21.432 They're looking for their next opportunity. 359 00:15:21.432 --> 00:15:22.968 They're looking to their vendors that have 360 00:15:22.968 --> 00:15:24.648 greater capabilities than they do to be 361 00:15:24.648 --> 00:15:28.410 able to help feed their pipelines. 362 00:15:28.410 --> 00:15:31.800 And the customers are looking for real value. 363 00:15:32.410 --> 00:15:35.644 They're not looking for the next 364 00:15:35.644 --> 00:15:37.372 innovation, whatever that might be. 365 00:15:37.372 --> 00:15:41.168 What they're looking for is rational investments that 366 00:15:41.168 --> 00:15:43.072 they can make to make their businesses better. 367 00:15:43.072 --> 00:15:45.488 The problem is that often times customers 368 00:15:45.488 --> 00:15:47.184 don't know what they don't know. 369 00:15:47.184 --> 00:15:51.648 We can sit here and pound on our desks and stand up on 370 00:15:51.648 --> 00:15:55.156 stages all day long and shout AI as much as we want to. 371 00:15:55.156 --> 00:15:58.564 The reality is that you have 372 00:15:58.564 --> 00:16:00.042 to have more directed investments. 373 00:16:00.042 --> 00:16:01.620 And it's not just an AI tool. 374 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:03.268 It is the things that go on around it. 375 00:16:03.268 --> 00:16:05.012 It's an augmentation that can happen. 376 00:16:05.012 --> 00:16:06.980 And I think that we have to keep that focus. 377 00:16:07.510 --> 00:16:09.192 I like to say that if you're going to use 378 00:16:09.192 --> 00:16:11.368 AI as a tool within your business, whether it's to 379 00:16:11.368 --> 00:16:15.762 augment tech support, use it like Heather's describing for marketing, 380 00:16:15.762 --> 00:16:20.578 even simplifying communication so that even the people who can't 381 00:16:20.578 --> 00:16:22.920 write can actually sound smart in an email. 382 00:16:23.930 --> 00:16:26.386 These tools are there not to replace. 383 00:16:26.386 --> 00:16:30.188 They're there to augment capabilities and to free us, give 384 00:16:30.188 --> 00:16:32.860 us freer more time to interact with other people. 385 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:34.944 And ultimately, I think that's the thing that the 386 00:16:34.944 --> 00:16:37.542 revolution that's to come is not that we're automating 387 00:16:37.542 --> 00:16:39.328 more, is that we are actually going to be 388 00:16:39.328 --> 00:16:41.872 able to have more contact with each other. 389 00:16:41.872 --> 00:16:46.762 Well, that is ultimately the goal, isn't mean we didn't 390 00:16:46.762 --> 00:16:49.956 actually go through and define what AI is, but everything 391 00:16:49.956 --> 00:16:51.652 that I'm seeing, and Heather, I live in the same 392 00:16:51.652 --> 00:16:54.948 marketing world that you do, is to be able to 393 00:16:54.948 --> 00:16:57.934 give individuals the time to think and to be strategic, 394 00:16:57.934 --> 00:16:59.416 to do more with the same. 395 00:16:59.416 --> 00:17:01.890 I think that's a nice way you put it, Heather. 396 00:17:02.470 --> 00:17:03.832 That's what I'm seeing. 397 00:17:03.832 --> 00:17:05.848 Has the buyer really changed that much? 398 00:17:05.848 --> 00:17:09.147 I mean, we're using AI to help us get that 399 00:17:09.147 --> 00:17:11.387 message across and help us to get that content. 400 00:17:11.387 --> 00:17:13.771 But has the buyer really changed that much 401 00:17:13.771 --> 00:17:16.988 in '23 to '24 to even '25? 402 00:17:16.988 --> 00:17:18.220 Is it still the personal 403 00:17:18.220 --> 00:17:19.682 experience that really matters? 404 00:17:19.682 --> 00:17:22.758 Is that what's going to make the marketing successful? 405 00:17:22.758 --> 00:17:23.952 What do you guys think? 406 00:17:23.952 --> 00:17:26.208 I don't think the buyers changed from '23 to 407 00:17:26.208 --> 00:17:29.248 '24, but I think the buyers drastically changed in 408 00:17:29.248 --> 00:17:32.110 the last ten years just in their behavior. 409 00:17:32.930 --> 00:17:36.916 So what ends up happening is B2B 410 00:17:36.916 --> 00:17:40.964 in general, and the channel for sure, are usually 411 00:17:40.964 --> 00:17:43.956 three to five years behind everyone else. 412 00:17:43.956 --> 00:17:48.040 So if we as consumers are ordering everything online 413 00:17:48.040 --> 00:17:50.392 and getting served up, if you like this, you 414 00:17:50.392 --> 00:17:53.976 may also like that, or because you bought this, 415 00:17:53.976 --> 00:17:57.270 this is the next logical step in your journey. 416 00:17:58.250 --> 00:17:59.868 And I don't think we're doing a 417 00:17:59.868 --> 00:18:02.668 good enough job of that in 418 00:18:02.668 --> 00:18:04.360 B2B in the channel yet. 419 00:18:05.770 --> 00:18:09.500 Larry, I tend to agree. 420 00:18:10.670 --> 00:18:12.048 I think that the changes in 421 00:18:12.048 --> 00:18:13.820 the buyer has already happened. 422 00:18:15.710 --> 00:18:20.544 The millennials are now running the purchasing process 423 00:18:20.544 --> 00:18:22.534 and they have a different set of considerations. 424 00:18:22.534 --> 00:18:26.234 We can see the share shift that's happening to hyperscalers, 425 00:18:26.234 --> 00:18:28.212 and I think that that's going to accelerate now. 426 00:18:28.212 --> 00:18:30.970 I mean, it's not just a matter of convenience. 427 00:18:30.970 --> 00:18:32.314 There's real value that's 428 00:18:32.314 --> 00:18:33.838 being driven through hyperscalers. 429 00:18:33.838 --> 00:18:37.800 And they are evolving their models to ensure that 430 00:18:37.800 --> 00:18:42.184 that experience is translated through the digital platforms as 431 00:18:42.184 --> 00:18:44.260 much as we did through a conventional channel. 432 00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:48.204 I do see a problem with the sellers, though. 433 00:18:48.204 --> 00:18:50.870 I don't think the sellers have necessarily changed. 434 00:18:53.050 --> 00:18:58.172 We are getting more inquiries about how do we 435 00:18:58.172 --> 00:19:02.422 inform, how do we enable, how do we resource 436 00:19:02.422 --> 00:19:05.056 sellers to think differently in terms of the different 437 00:19:05.056 --> 00:19:07.216 options and the different sales models that are available 438 00:19:07.216 --> 00:19:09.500 now that weren't available a few years ago. 439 00:19:10.350 --> 00:19:12.548 And I think it's the sellers are the ones that 440 00:19:12.548 --> 00:19:18.260 are having the hardest time adapting on a company level. 441 00:19:18.260 --> 00:19:21.108 I think that there's still a mindset out there 442 00:19:21.108 --> 00:19:22.308 that I think needs to be cleaned up. 443 00:19:22.308 --> 00:19:24.228 And I'll share with you a conversation I even 444 00:19:24.228 --> 00:19:26.216 just had this morning with somebody was saying, well, 445 00:19:26.216 --> 00:19:28.520 look, we have this innovative, great product. 446 00:19:28.520 --> 00:19:31.336 It layers on to everything else 447 00:19:31.336 --> 00:19:33.000 and it makes everything better. 448 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.352 And that's not an uncommon story. 449 00:19:35.352 --> 00:19:37.448 The customer doesn't want to hear that. 450 00:19:37.448 --> 00:19:39.986 The customer has a lot of change fatigue, 451 00:19:39.986 --> 00:19:42.668 a lot of stacking fatigue that has been 452 00:19:42.668 --> 00:19:44.012 building up over the last few years. 453 00:19:44.012 --> 00:19:45.772 So a lot of what you're seeing in terms of 454 00:19:45.772 --> 00:19:49.808 pullback as a service model, and it's not to say 455 00:19:49.808 --> 00:19:52.864 that we're not spending to continuing to grow as a 456 00:19:52.864 --> 00:19:57.328 service offerings, but the customers are being more deliberate in 457 00:19:57.328 --> 00:20:01.398 the way that they're evaluating service based offerings because it's 458 00:20:01.398 --> 00:20:03.488 becoming just like streaming services. 459 00:20:03.488 --> 00:20:05.482 Okay, we bought Netflix. 460 00:20:05.482 --> 00:20:06.826 Then we got Amazon prime. 461 00:20:06.826 --> 00:20:09.018 Now we got Disney, now we got Apple TV. 462 00:20:09.018 --> 00:20:10.218 And before we know it, we're spending 463 00:20:10.218 --> 00:20:11.866 more than we were on cable. 464 00:20:11.866 --> 00:20:14.052 And that's where a lot of fatigue is coming 465 00:20:14.052 --> 00:20:17.844 in on the business side, on the company side. 466 00:20:17.844 --> 00:20:19.224 And I think that's one of the things that we're going 467 00:20:19.224 --> 00:20:22.070 to have to get around over the next year or two. 468 00:20:22.070 --> 00:20:23.838 Well, Heather, that kind of feeds 469 00:20:23.838 --> 00:20:26.236 right into your wheelhouse there. 470 00:20:26.236 --> 00:20:29.564 If there's change and it's necessary, that's exactly where 471 00:20:29.564 --> 00:20:31.996 incent them to do the behavior you want. Yeah. 472 00:20:31.996 --> 00:20:37.468 For mean, I think to Larry's point, you as a 473 00:20:37.468 --> 00:20:40.652 business, so if you're the software company, the hardware company, 474 00:20:40.652 --> 00:20:43.728 the tech company, working with these partners, you have to 475 00:20:43.728 --> 00:20:46.192 figure out the strategy to help them to make sure 476 00:20:46.192 --> 00:20:49.782 that they aren't overwhelmed and aren't spending more and aren't 477 00:20:49.782 --> 00:20:52.864 pushing their customers in the wrong way. 478 00:20:52.864 --> 00:20:58.068 But once you figure out that path and that strategy, then 479 00:20:58.068 --> 00:21:00.842 it's up to you to incent them to do the behaviors 480 00:21:00.842 --> 00:21:03.230 that will get them going in the right direction. 481 00:21:03.890 --> 00:21:07.816 And I think the onus is, I always say us 482 00:21:07.816 --> 00:21:10.420 because I started my career on the vendor side. 483 00:21:11.830 --> 00:21:13.848 I actually started my career on the partner side, 484 00:21:13.848 --> 00:21:15.880 but very quickly moved to the vendor side. 485 00:21:16.730 --> 00:21:20.812 I think the onus is on the tech companies 486 00:21:20.812 --> 00:21:23.372 to figure out a lot of things right now. Right. 487 00:21:23.372 --> 00:21:26.130 Like partners are now selling through marketplaces. 488 00:21:26.130 --> 00:21:28.336 They're looking to the vendor to say, 489 00:21:28.336 --> 00:21:30.780 how do I make this happen too? 490 00:21:31.390 --> 00:21:33.968 And that is also where something like an 491 00:21:33.968 --> 00:21:39.888 ecosystem management tool, where if their customer is 492 00:21:39.888 --> 00:21:42.724 buying through a marketplace but the partner needs 493 00:21:42.724 --> 00:21:45.412 help setting up services or they're the one 494 00:21:45.412 --> 00:21:46.794 selling through the marketplace. 495 00:21:46.794 --> 00:21:48.154 I know I'm taking us on a tangent. 496 00:21:48.154 --> 00:21:49.280 I'll be right back. 497 00:21:50.290 --> 00:21:55.918 It's important that the education around that, the engagement 498 00:21:55.918 --> 00:22:00.024 around that, the enablement pieces around that are inside 499 00:22:00.024 --> 00:22:03.704 of an ecosystem management tool that has AI and 500 00:22:03.704 --> 00:22:05.448 is serving up, and now you do this. 501 00:22:05.448 --> 00:22:06.648 And now you do that. 502 00:22:06.648 --> 00:22:09.612 Because if nothing else, the way that we buy and 503 00:22:09.612 --> 00:22:14.130 sell today has made us as consumers incredibly lazy. 504 00:22:14.130 --> 00:22:16.546 Like I had to go to the grocery 505 00:22:16.546 --> 00:22:18.886 store the other day, my head almost exploded. 506 00:22:18.886 --> 00:22:22.250 My kids were like, we don't come here anymore. 507 00:22:23.230 --> 00:22:27.968 So once you get the partners and the customers to 508 00:22:27.968 --> 00:22:31.232 a place where they want things served up to them, 509 00:22:31.232 --> 00:22:33.470 you need to make sure you keep doing that. 510 00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:34.864 Hey, Larry, this kind of goes back to 511 00:22:34.864 --> 00:22:36.452 the content side that you talked about. 512 00:22:36.452 --> 00:22:39.140 And this is the world that I live in. 513 00:22:39.140 --> 00:22:41.684 If we look at AI from a big picture, I live in 514 00:22:41.684 --> 00:22:44.612 a world where we're taking AI down to something really simple. 515 00:22:44.612 --> 00:22:46.904 And Heather, you had talked about before, how do 516 00:22:46.904 --> 00:22:49.736 we customize and how do we personalize content? 517 00:22:49.736 --> 00:22:52.958 So the message actually reaches that buyer. 518 00:22:52.958 --> 00:22:54.472 And so, Larry, what do you think? 519 00:22:54.472 --> 00:22:57.148 How do we get that reseller to do that 520 00:22:57.148 --> 00:23:00.748 and get that content, use that AI to actually 521 00:23:00.748 --> 00:23:04.028 match up with what the buyer wants? Right. 522 00:23:04.028 --> 00:23:09.150 I would think that AI would actually make that will. 523 00:23:09.150 --> 00:23:11.568 And I'm going to say this for my big 524 00:23:11.568 --> 00:23:17.328 sister, Heather, that I am conceding defeat, that I 525 00:23:17.328 --> 00:23:21.600 will accept that ecosystems are a thing. 526 00:23:23.170 --> 00:23:25.490 I think everybody gets it wrong. 527 00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:27.972 And part to your question, Steven, is that. 528 00:23:27.972 --> 00:23:29.492 Wait, hold on a second. 529 00:23:29.492 --> 00:23:31.354 They're have been ecosystems. 530 00:23:31.354 --> 00:23:34.420 I've been talking about ecosystem for 13 years. 15. 531 00:23:34.420 --> 00:23:37.256 We do not have time to go 532 00:23:37.256 --> 00:23:41.246 through how Larry got to this conclusion. 533 00:23:41.246 --> 00:23:45.220 Can we just revel in the victory that is? 534 00:23:45.750 --> 00:23:46.878 Victory? 535 00:23:46.878 --> 00:23:49.148 I would call it a minor victory, because 536 00:23:49.148 --> 00:23:51.436 as Steven said, he said 13 years. Hello. 537 00:23:51.436 --> 00:23:53.880 I was talking about ecosystems 20 years ago. 538 00:23:55.530 --> 00:23:56.588 Do you need me to do 539 00:23:56.588 --> 00:23:58.502 my two dimensional versus three dimensional? 540 00:23:58.502 --> 00:24:03.520 Again, I would love to, because that is so cool. 541 00:24:03.520 --> 00:24:04.768 And how. 542 00:24:04.768 --> 00:24:12.336 No, but to your question, Steven, about how to 543 00:24:12.336 --> 00:24:14.228 take that content and get the partners to use 544 00:24:14.228 --> 00:24:16.228 that content, and whether there's a tool or whether 545 00:24:16.228 --> 00:24:18.080 it's AI to get them to use that content. 546 00:24:18.930 --> 00:24:23.002 This is what I mean by some of the systemic 547 00:24:23.002 --> 00:24:26.522 flaws in the thinking around the concept of ecosystems. 548 00:24:26.522 --> 00:24:29.160 Ecosystems, to me, Heather will talk about this, and 549 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:31.742 I do really appreciate the way that she describes 550 00:24:31.742 --> 00:24:33.870 two versus three dimensional go to markets. 551 00:24:33.870 --> 00:24:36.792 To me, ecosystems is not a go to market model. 552 00:24:36.792 --> 00:24:39.058 It is a concept that describes a variety 553 00:24:39.058 --> 00:24:42.330 of different actions that then flow through channels. 554 00:24:42.330 --> 00:24:44.412 And that's where this really does get 555 00:24:44.412 --> 00:24:47.516 challenged, because we all look at this 556 00:24:47.516 --> 00:24:49.708 from a vendor centric point of view. 557 00:24:49.708 --> 00:24:52.288 And ultimately, when I say the sellers are 558 00:24:52.288 --> 00:24:54.096 the ones that have to catch up, and 559 00:24:54.096 --> 00:24:57.584 sellers, from on high, their management team down, 560 00:24:57.584 --> 00:24:59.968 because ultimately, who they're trying to service, the 561 00:24:59.968 --> 00:25:02.372 sellers, the channel teams, the channel chiefs, their 562 00:25:02.372 --> 00:25:05.348 customers are their executive teams, and ultimately, the 563 00:25:05.348 --> 00:25:07.962 customers of the executive teams are their investors. 564 00:25:07.962 --> 00:25:09.172 And that's what has to get 565 00:25:09.172 --> 00:25:11.280 satisfied from the inside up. 566 00:25:11.970 --> 00:25:15.064 The partner has a voice in all of this. 567 00:25:15.064 --> 00:25:16.782 The partner has a choice. 568 00:25:16.782 --> 00:25:20.350 And if you look at even the smallest 569 00:25:20.350 --> 00:25:24.670 resellers or integrators or msps, they are aligned 570 00:25:24.670 --> 00:25:28.098 primarily with a dozen or so vendors. 571 00:25:28.098 --> 00:25:29.714 And when I say aligned, I meaning 572 00:25:29.714 --> 00:25:31.932 that they are primarily focused around them. 573 00:25:31.932 --> 00:25:33.068 They make their investments, they 574 00:25:33.068 --> 00:25:34.970 build practices around them. 575 00:25:34.970 --> 00:25:38.658 There are another three to four dozen other vendors 576 00:25:38.658 --> 00:25:42.662 that they're dealing with on a continual basis. 577 00:25:42.662 --> 00:25:45.814 It may not be as frequent, it could be opportunistic, 578 00:25:45.814 --> 00:25:49.616 but there's this expectation from the supply side that we 579 00:25:49.616 --> 00:25:52.704 got to get them to use our tools, and we 580 00:25:52.704 --> 00:25:55.588 got to get them to push our narrative, and we 581 00:25:55.588 --> 00:25:56.900 want to be out in front. 582 00:25:56.900 --> 00:26:00.132 And the reality is the partner has their 583 00:26:00.132 --> 00:26:02.148 own imperative, their own mission that they have 584 00:26:02.148 --> 00:26:04.362 to follow, which doesn't always align. 585 00:26:04.362 --> 00:26:06.868 And we have to accept that if we can 586 00:26:06.868 --> 00:26:09.208 sell them on our value, then that's great. 587 00:26:09.208 --> 00:26:11.272 But we can't all sit there and say, yes, 588 00:26:11.272 --> 00:26:12.600 we're going to get them to do this. 589 00:26:12.600 --> 00:26:13.720 Wait, hold on. 590 00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:15.868 So many things that I would pass. We go down. 591 00:26:15.868 --> 00:26:17.612 First of all, that statement is 592 00:26:17.612 --> 00:26:20.476 at least 15 years old, right? 593 00:26:20.476 --> 00:26:22.604 Because MSPs, 15 years ago 594 00:26:22.604 --> 00:26:24.866 sold risk mitigation, business continuity. 595 00:26:24.866 --> 00:26:27.292 They didn't sell Dell and VMware, right? 596 00:26:27.292 --> 00:26:28.704 So they've had their own 597 00:26:28.704 --> 00:26:30.810 statement as a partner forever. 598 00:26:32.750 --> 00:26:35.696 My question to both of you is, is that message? 599 00:26:35.696 --> 00:26:38.208 Because I get in this conversation on a 600 00:26:38.208 --> 00:26:40.928 daily basis, you've got the vendor message, and 601 00:26:40.928 --> 00:26:42.540 then you've got the partner message. 602 00:26:43.310 --> 00:26:45.028 Why aren't we doing a better job making it a 603 00:26:45.028 --> 00:26:48.228 joint message to the customer, coming together and talking about 604 00:26:48.228 --> 00:26:50.900 the value of how they support each other? 605 00:26:50.900 --> 00:26:53.300 Like the one in one equals three sort of thing. 606 00:26:53.300 --> 00:26:56.350 So the buyer is seeing the both best from both sides. 607 00:26:56.350 --> 00:26:57.592 Why are we doing that? 608 00:26:57.592 --> 00:26:59.992 I'll share this with you, and this will 609 00:26:59.992 --> 00:27:02.790 resonate with Heather when she was turning wrenches. 610 00:27:02.790 --> 00:27:06.972 So think about your car. 611 00:27:06.972 --> 00:27:11.004 Your car is the collection or 612 00:27:11.004 --> 00:27:13.480 the epitome of an ecosystem product. 613 00:27:14.410 --> 00:27:17.548 And there are 10,000 on average, more than 614 00:27:17.548 --> 00:27:20.274 10,000 individual parts that go into an average 615 00:27:20.274 --> 00:27:23.050 car coming from an equal number of suppliers. 616 00:27:23.710 --> 00:27:25.200 They all have to come together. 617 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:28.048 And then at that point, it becomes a 618 00:27:28.048 --> 00:27:30.566 brand, it becomes a product, it becomes marketable. 619 00:27:30.566 --> 00:27:32.436 Up until that point is that 620 00:27:32.436 --> 00:27:34.890 everyone has their own individual missions. 621 00:27:34.890 --> 00:27:37.204 And those individual missions don't always 622 00:27:37.204 --> 00:27:39.380 align themselves to being in that 623 00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:42.050 joint marketing, that joint communications. 624 00:27:42.050 --> 00:27:44.058 It does happen episodically. 625 00:27:44.058 --> 00:27:47.802 And you do see companies that do this on a good basis. 626 00:27:47.802 --> 00:27:50.728 Look, if you look at the GSI relationships with 627 00:27:50.728 --> 00:27:53.096 a lot of the tier one vendors, this happens 628 00:27:53.096 --> 00:27:55.480 very well, but it has to happen. 629 00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:57.694 This tends to happen in isolation. 630 00:27:57.694 --> 00:27:59.208 And that's one of the things that we have to 631 00:27:59.208 --> 00:28:02.300 remember, is that there is a lot of competing interest 632 00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:04.332 in here that we have to work around or work 633 00:28:04.332 --> 00:28:06.748 with in order to get messages to market. 634 00:28:06.748 --> 00:28:08.156 Why can't we take that best 635 00:28:08.156 --> 00:28:10.284 practices and scale it down? Right. 636 00:28:10.284 --> 00:28:11.800 Scale it down and out? 637 00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:15.104 What's in the way of that? 638 00:28:15.104 --> 00:28:16.960 Can I just go back to Steven's question? 639 00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:18.752 Because I would have a different answer for that. 640 00:28:18.752 --> 00:28:21.172 The reason that you can't do the one plus 641 00:28:21.172 --> 00:28:25.120 one equals three anymore is one partners sell. 642 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:28.036 I used to say they sell 643 00:28:28.036 --> 00:28:30.100 between five and 25 different products. 644 00:28:30.100 --> 00:28:32.420 They sell now between 25 and 645 00:28:32.420 --> 00:28:35.832 hundreds of different and two. 646 00:28:35.832 --> 00:28:39.752 The customer doesn't care as much that it 647 00:28:39.752 --> 00:28:43.832 says Dell EMC on the storage array, because 648 00:28:43.832 --> 00:28:45.512 they're not looking at it every day. 649 00:28:45.512 --> 00:28:47.532 They're not like bringing people in 650 00:28:47.532 --> 00:28:49.590 to show off their raised floor. 651 00:28:50.410 --> 00:28:52.508 The customer doesn't necessarily have the 652 00:28:52.508 --> 00:28:54.898 data center in their office anymore. 653 00:28:54.898 --> 00:28:57.596 And if they do, they still probably don't have someone 654 00:28:57.596 --> 00:29:00.406 who's walking into the data center on a regular basis, 655 00:29:00.406 --> 00:29:04.048 like brushing their shoulders off that they got the cool 656 00:29:04.048 --> 00:29:07.424 blue lights under the floor that move. 657 00:29:07.424 --> 00:29:09.728 That's not the experience that 658 00:29:09.728 --> 00:29:11.402 our customers are having anymore. 659 00:29:11.402 --> 00:29:15.620 So I think it's less about the technology company 660 00:29:15.620 --> 00:29:18.868 and their partner walking hand in hand into a 661 00:29:18.868 --> 00:29:23.048 customer, and more about the three different technology or 662 00:29:23.048 --> 00:29:27.160 the three different, the MSP, the VAR, and the 663 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:32.376 influencer or systems integrator walking in together and saying, 664 00:29:32.376 --> 00:29:35.148 these are the 20 technologies that we are going 665 00:29:35.148 --> 00:29:39.010 to implement to help you reach this business outcome, 666 00:29:39.010 --> 00:29:41.212 because that's what the customer cares about now, their 667 00:29:41.212 --> 00:29:43.800 business outcome completely. 668 00:29:45.450 --> 00:29:50.688 But Steven, look, no, I completely agree, but that's why 669 00:29:50.688 --> 00:29:53.392 I'm saying about the sellers have to catch up, because 670 00:29:53.392 --> 00:29:57.808 ultimately, once I vendor X realize that I'm in a 671 00:29:57.808 --> 00:30:02.086 deal, then if I'm having to wait for my peers 672 00:30:02.086 --> 00:30:05.300 to get sold into this, I don't want to wait, 673 00:30:05.300 --> 00:30:06.436 I want to get in there. 674 00:30:06.436 --> 00:30:10.388 And that's the problem right now with some of the 675 00:30:10.388 --> 00:30:14.212 shortcomings of the ecosystem concept, is that the nature of 676 00:30:14.212 --> 00:30:17.368 selling within individual vendors is still based around get my 677 00:30:17.368 --> 00:30:19.848 deal first, and then you guys can go next. 678 00:30:19.848 --> 00:30:23.496 And that motion that you're describing, Heather, doesn't happen 679 00:30:23.496 --> 00:30:25.640 as often as people like to think it does. 680 00:30:29.370 --> 00:30:32.412 I would say it happens more than we think, but 681 00:30:32.412 --> 00:30:37.756 it's not something that, it's not orchestrated like that. 682 00:30:37.756 --> 00:30:38.828 It's just happening. 683 00:30:38.828 --> 00:30:40.326 Oh, no, it's opportunistic. 684 00:30:40.326 --> 00:30:41.376 That's the problem. 685 00:30:41.376 --> 00:30:45.968 It's opportunistic, and it only happens in meaningful ways 686 00:30:45.968 --> 00:30:48.358 when it services the interest of the person who's 687 00:30:48.358 --> 00:30:52.140 trying to get the sale in first in 2024. 688 00:30:52.670 --> 00:30:54.548 What I'd like to hear from you, each 689 00:30:54.548 --> 00:30:56.868 of you, is maybe two or three things. 690 00:30:56.868 --> 00:30:59.242 What can people do to be effective? 691 00:30:59.242 --> 00:31:02.186 Because we can have these great high level conversations 692 00:31:02.186 --> 00:31:04.852 about an ecosystem, and why don't we replicate this? 693 00:31:04.852 --> 00:31:07.304 And co-selling is a challenge, but it's the right way to 694 00:31:07.304 --> 00:31:10.120 go, and it works at the GSI and the vendor level. 695 00:31:10.120 --> 00:31:14.664 Why can't we get it down to the smaller partner level? 696 00:31:14.664 --> 00:31:16.808 By the way, my take is if you can see it 697 00:31:16.808 --> 00:31:18.764 and you can make it work up here, you should be 698 00:31:18.764 --> 00:31:20.572 able to figure out how to make it work down there. 699 00:31:20.572 --> 00:31:22.428 It's inevitable whoever does it 700 00:31:22.428 --> 00:31:23.634 is going to be successful. 701 00:31:23.634 --> 00:31:28.188 But all that aside, Larry, top two or 702 00:31:28.188 --> 00:31:29.852 three things you should be looking at to 703 00:31:29.852 --> 00:31:31.804 get through to that second half of 2024. 704 00:31:31.804 --> 00:31:34.368 And Heather, like to know the same thing from you. 705 00:31:34.368 --> 00:31:34.528 Right. 706 00:31:34.528 --> 00:31:36.540 It's a good way to wrap things up. 707 00:31:37.710 --> 00:31:40.860 I guess you don't want me to say abandon all hope. 708 00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:42.848 Okay, hold on. 709 00:31:42.848 --> 00:31:44.244 I don't even know how to say that. 710 00:31:44.244 --> 00:31:47.098 You just said, and it's in here earlier kidding, 711 00:31:47.098 --> 00:31:49.876 if you get through the first half of 2024, 712 00:31:49.876 --> 00:31:51.550 the second half is going to rock. 713 00:31:52.690 --> 00:31:54.596 Two quarters is nothing. 714 00:31:54.596 --> 00:31:57.028 You better be marketing extremely hard and 715 00:31:57.028 --> 00:31:58.888 effectively now so that you can be 716 00:31:58.888 --> 00:32:01.176 successful in the second half of 2024. 717 00:32:01.176 --> 00:32:02.808 Well, first, I'm going to disagree with you. 718 00:32:02.808 --> 00:32:04.136 If you go out and you talk to any 719 00:32:04.136 --> 00:32:07.330 CRO right now, and two quarters are a lifetime. 720 00:32:07.330 --> 00:32:08.790 I am a CRO. 721 00:32:10.650 --> 00:32:13.132 And as an invitation to explore other 722 00:32:13.132 --> 00:32:15.560 opportunities or maybe get reorged out. 723 00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:18.252 Look, I don't think that we 724 00:32:18.252 --> 00:32:21.644 can abandon building strategic relationships and 725 00:32:21.644 --> 00:32:23.318 getting deeper in with those partners. 726 00:32:23.318 --> 00:32:24.944 It's one of the things that needs to 727 00:32:24.944 --> 00:32:26.592 be done in a more meaningful way. 728 00:32:26.592 --> 00:32:29.100 We prescribe joint business planning to do that. 729 00:32:29.630 --> 00:32:31.088 I think vendors need. 730 00:32:31.088 --> 00:32:33.396 Over the past 18 months, vendors have 731 00:32:33.396 --> 00:32:38.458 been paring down their channel programs, limiting 732 00:32:38.458 --> 00:32:40.298 the number of partners that are participating. 733 00:32:40.298 --> 00:32:42.068 They're going to have to actually open up 734 00:32:42.068 --> 00:32:43.972 and bring more partners into the fold because 735 00:32:43.972 --> 00:32:46.648 the partners they have are not growing and 736 00:32:46.648 --> 00:32:48.280 contributing at a fast enough rate. 737 00:32:48.280 --> 00:32:50.290 So they need to go find new opportunities. 738 00:32:50.870 --> 00:32:53.192 And on top of all that, they have to 739 00:32:53.192 --> 00:32:56.798 invest in both targeted and air cover marketing. 740 00:32:56.798 --> 00:33:00.898 One of the things that will help the partners uncover 741 00:33:00.898 --> 00:33:04.258 opportunities and sell more effectively is that if the vendors 742 00:33:04.258 --> 00:33:07.132 are helping to build customer consideration, I'm not even talking 743 00:33:07.132 --> 00:33:10.540 about getting to the point of generating leads, meaning that 744 00:33:10.540 --> 00:33:14.176 if you can warm up the customers to be open 745 00:33:14.176 --> 00:33:17.072 to having a conversation about the brand, about the product, 746 00:33:17.072 --> 00:33:19.984 it will make things much simpler for the partner to 747 00:33:19.984 --> 00:33:21.630 actually initiate that conversation. 748 00:33:22.450 --> 00:33:26.100 I think adding to that, one thing I'm seeing 749 00:33:26.100 --> 00:33:30.932 is a lot of companies reorging out their more 750 00:33:30.932 --> 00:33:34.308 senior channel executives and hiring at a lower rate. 751 00:33:34.308 --> 00:33:37.540 And I just think that is a huge mistake because 752 00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:41.368 they are going to look back in six months and 753 00:33:41.368 --> 00:33:44.340 realize that they don't have the strength that they need 754 00:33:44.870 --> 00:33:47.052 to get them where they want to go in 2025. 755 00:33:47.052 --> 00:33:48.870 It's the same as stopping marketing. 756 00:33:49.690 --> 00:33:50.892 And I shouldn't say a lot. 757 00:33:50.892 --> 00:33:55.612 I'm seeing a handful, like in the last week, but 758 00:33:55.612 --> 00:33:59.708 others who brought people in six months ago are now 759 00:33:59.708 --> 00:34:01.900 bringing somebody back in on top of them. 760 00:34:02.590 --> 00:34:04.976 So I think it's important that you're thinking 761 00:34:04.976 --> 00:34:07.264 about long term, not just like, got to 762 00:34:07.264 --> 00:34:08.768 make it through the next six months. 763 00:34:08.768 --> 00:34:11.987 Yeah, it's going to be hard, six months, but 764 00:34:11.987 --> 00:34:14.452 make sure that you're prepared for the next. 765 00:34:14.452 --> 00:34:18.835 And then I'm also seeing companies that 766 00:34:18.835 --> 00:34:21.027 realize that incentives are what's going to 767 00:34:21.027 --> 00:34:22.851 keep those partners with them. 768 00:34:22.851 --> 00:34:25.268 Think of how much trouble you took to 769 00:34:25.268 --> 00:34:27.934 recruit and enable all of those partners. 770 00:34:27.934 --> 00:34:30.344 If they're not making money with you, and I 771 00:34:30.344 --> 00:34:32.958 mean more money than they are with a competitor, 772 00:34:32.958 --> 00:34:34.376 they're just going to go somewhere else. 773 00:34:34.376 --> 00:34:37.143 It's right back to the nobody's walking into a 774 00:34:37.143 --> 00:34:39.234 data center and getting excited about the blue lights 775 00:34:39.234 --> 00:34:42.810 going back and forth across the floor like. 776 00:34:42.810 --> 00:34:45.148 Partners will sell someone else if they 777 00:34:45.148 --> 00:34:46.396 can make more money with them. 778 00:34:46.396 --> 00:34:48.911 So think about not just margin, but 779 00:34:48.911 --> 00:34:50.726 how are you spiffing the salesperson? 780 00:34:50.726 --> 00:34:53.952 How are you giving rebates to the customer? 781 00:34:53.952 --> 00:34:56.409 How are you helping the business owner? 782 00:34:57.310 --> 00:35:00.474 And also to Larry's point, make sure you're 783 00:35:00.474 --> 00:35:04.210 enabling them to do sales and marketing correctly. 784 00:35:04.210 --> 00:35:06.426 I want to echo something Heather 785 00:35:06.426 --> 00:35:09.492 said, though, about the quality of. 786 00:35:09.492 --> 00:35:10.960 I'm trying to get to eight. 787 00:35:11.730 --> 00:35:14.472 Okay, you got 60 seconds to get to eight. 788 00:35:14.472 --> 00:35:17.336 No, it's true, though. 789 00:35:17.336 --> 00:35:20.872 Is that because a lot of recruiters will call 790 00:35:20.872 --> 00:35:24.340 me looking for the next talent they're looking for? 791 00:35:25.030 --> 00:35:27.678 There's been a palpable shift in what recruiters 792 00:35:27.678 --> 00:35:30.168 are looking for in channel chiefs, and what 793 00:35:30.168 --> 00:35:32.302 they're equating to is not their skill. 794 00:35:32.302 --> 00:35:33.906 They're not looking at their skills, 795 00:35:33.906 --> 00:35:35.922 they're looking at their relationships. 796 00:35:35.922 --> 00:35:38.028 And they think that they can bring in somebody who 797 00:35:38.028 --> 00:35:41.728 can walk into Presidio, walk into WWT or CDW, that 798 00:35:41.728 --> 00:35:44.000 it's going to solve their problems and it's not. 799 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.328 They need more strategic people that 800 00:35:47.328 --> 00:35:49.260 can build for long term success. 801 00:35:50.110 --> 00:35:53.328 And the other thing that vendors tend to do in times 802 00:35:53.328 --> 00:35:56.052 like these is they tend to try to overcomplicate things. 803 00:35:56.052 --> 00:35:57.732 So I appreciate what Heather is saying about 804 00:35:57.732 --> 00:36:02.762 incentives, but we've just reviewed 200,000 partner records, 805 00:36:02.762 --> 00:36:04.554 and what did we find is that ease 806 00:36:04.554 --> 00:36:06.712 of doing business has a greater impact on 807 00:36:06.712 --> 00:36:08.888 partner productivity than even incentives do. 808 00:36:08.888 --> 00:36:11.320 It's not to say incentives aren't important, but 809 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.976 vendors really need to simplify and make things 810 00:36:13.976 --> 00:36:16.558 easier for partners to work, not harder. 811 00:36:16.558 --> 00:36:17.912 Yeah, no, I agree. 812 00:36:17.912 --> 00:36:19.628 And I think my last take on 813 00:36:19.628 --> 00:36:21.410 that is I agree on the simplify. 814 00:36:21.410 --> 00:36:25.148 Look, I've been doing partner surveys for a long time 815 00:36:25.148 --> 00:36:27.740 and always at the top is to make things simple. 816 00:36:27.740 --> 00:36:28.642 And I'm with you, Larry. 817 00:36:28.642 --> 00:36:31.872 I've read the guidelines for the top hundred 818 00:36:31.872 --> 00:36:34.032 companies out there in the tech space, and 819 00:36:34.032 --> 00:36:36.912 I'm not so sure it's actually taken hold. 820 00:36:36.912 --> 00:36:38.336 But I think it has to go a step 821 00:36:38.336 --> 00:36:41.088 beyond, especially in the technology world and the tech 822 00:36:41.088 --> 00:36:42.880 stack, the world heather and I live in. 823 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:44.944 I think we're all making a 824 00:36:44.944 --> 00:36:47.300 step towards making them simpler. And that's great. 825 00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:48.970 I agree it needs to be easier. 826 00:36:48.970 --> 00:36:51.508 I think we're to the point where you have to add value. 827 00:36:51.508 --> 00:36:53.332 I think there's enough technology coming 828 00:36:53.332 --> 00:36:54.612 out to make it simple. 829 00:36:54.612 --> 00:36:57.818 Look, any good tech stack out there knows 830 00:36:57.818 --> 00:36:59.368 who the partner is, where the partner is, 831 00:36:59.368 --> 00:37:00.968 what the partner is, when the last time 832 00:37:00.968 --> 00:37:02.654 they're there, and what they've been successful. 833 00:37:02.654 --> 00:37:04.046 Those are just table stakes. 834 00:37:04.046 --> 00:37:06.504 So you can make it so simple for a partner that 835 00:37:06.504 --> 00:37:09.714 they look at and go, oh, this is really intuitive. 836 00:37:09.714 --> 00:37:13.004 If you don't have any value, they're never coming back. 837 00:37:13.004 --> 00:37:15.532 What the partners need and want in life, as far 838 00:37:15.532 --> 00:37:18.668 as driving either leads or revenue or the money that 839 00:37:18.668 --> 00:37:21.042 you owe them for something, that hasn't changed. 840 00:37:21.042 --> 00:37:22.492 So I think one of the things I'm seeing 841 00:37:22.492 --> 00:37:23.968 that's going to be successful for a lot of 842 00:37:23.968 --> 00:37:26.064 technology stack is you got to add value. 843 00:37:26.064 --> 00:37:28.544 And whether that's an incentive program, that is the 844 00:37:28.544 --> 00:37:30.608 right kind of incentive program that gets there, or 845 00:37:30.608 --> 00:37:32.736 the way it's taking content and allowing them to 846 00:37:32.736 --> 00:37:36.548 actually finally personalize content in a short period of 847 00:37:36.548 --> 00:37:38.740 time, these are things that are going to lead, 848 00:37:38.740 --> 00:37:39.956 I think, to success. 849 00:37:39.956 --> 00:37:41.908 And that's what's going to have partners going back 850 00:37:41.908 --> 00:37:43.658 and engaging because you can go out and recruit 851 00:37:43.658 --> 00:37:45.572 all day long, you can promise them all these 852 00:37:45.572 --> 00:37:47.220 great things and you can bring them in. 853 00:37:47.220 --> 00:37:48.532 You can make it really simple. 854 00:37:48.532 --> 00:37:50.154 If they don't have value, they're 855 00:37:50.154 --> 00:37:52.298 not going to stay anyways. 856 00:37:52.298 --> 00:37:55.356 Larry, I know you've had a crazy year 857 00:37:55.356 --> 00:37:57.020 and you've flown all over the place. 858 00:37:57.020 --> 00:37:58.412 I appreciate you taking a little 859 00:37:58.412 --> 00:38:00.498 bit of time to join us. Much appreciated. 860 00:38:00.498 --> 00:38:03.132 Heather, I know your life is crazy right now towards 861 00:38:03.132 --> 00:38:05.052 the end of the year, so I appreciate you taking 862 00:38:05.052 --> 00:38:06.524 a little time to join us as well. 863 00:38:06.524 --> 00:38:07.756 Thanks for having us. 864 00:38:07.756 --> 00:38:10.124 Seriously, it was a pleasure. Thank you both. 865 00:38:10.124 --> 00:38:12.956 Have a great holiday and I'll see you guys all soon. 866 00:38:12.956 --> 00:38:13.170 Peace.