WEBVTT 00:00:04.087 --> 00:00:06.177 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. 00:00:09.057 --> 00:00:16.617 I'm Pastor Luke. And I'm Pastor Cameron. And this is the Uncut Podcast where we talk about things in an uncut and honest 00:00:16.617 --> 00:00:20.977 manner, talk about faith, life, theology, ministry, anything that particularly, 00:00:21.506 --> 00:00:23.351 maybe gets under our skin a little bit. 00:00:23.540 --> 00:00:34.377 Today we're going to be diving into an interesting video that was sent to us by one of you who's listening. 00:00:34.829 --> 00:00:42.949 I think this is going to bring some good conversation to the forefront. 00:00:43.377 --> 00:00:46.377 So I'm excited to kind of dig in here a little bit. 00:00:46.377 --> 00:00:52.377 Me too. It certainly is a good video to spark conversation. 00:00:52.510 --> 00:00:56.937 It's got me all worked up inside feeling things. 00:00:59.097 --> 00:01:05.057 Sure. Um, so we were sent a video and we'll have that linked at the, 00:01:05.417 --> 00:01:08.057 in our description and in our show notes and everything like that. 00:01:08.057 --> 00:01:11.177 So you can go and you can watch that video if you would like to, 00:01:11.595 --> 00:01:18.537 but we will cover pretty much the pretty much, well, I mean it depends on how long this conversation takes us. 00:01:18.657 --> 00:01:29.257 I can't say we'll get through it all in one episode, but we'll cover it pretty much. I mean, there's not much to describe other than it's a Catholic 00:01:29.518 --> 00:01:37.827 who is of the persuasion that Protestantism is a heresy is the word that she used to describe all 00:01:38.017 --> 00:01:42.897 of Protestantism. I'm gonna have a hard time saying that word. 00:01:42.897 --> 00:01:49.097 She didn't even that's like not even abroad because that is that's the opening, 00:01:49.935 --> 00:01:55.937 It's a it was an Instagram video. Yeah, I was an Instagram real. Okay, so it's really short. Yep, and there was like this, 00:01:56.831 --> 00:02:06.697 Punching music. Oh, yeah, and it was like, okay I'm gonna show all the Internet why Protestantism is a heresy and and so that's like the title, 00:02:07.706 --> 00:02:21.037 Like that's the opening is why is Protestantism is a heresy? Yes And just so you know if you're not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox you are a Protestant right just clarify that if you're Baptist. 00:02:22.613 --> 00:02:30.237 Lutheran Presbyterian non-denominational like you were you fall underneath the category of Protestant. Yeah out of the Protestant Reformation, 00:02:31.037 --> 00:02:36.997 Anyway, but it doesn't even feel like it wasn't even just it's not like a broad brush, 00:02:38.502 --> 00:02:39.745 it's like a. 00:02:41.329 --> 00:02:48.459 Broad, it's like a mile wide paint sprayer that she just paints all Protestantism with. 00:02:49.305 --> 00:02:58.699 And it's why, I think that's why I get so fired up about this kind of stuff. It's nothing to do 00:02:58.699 --> 00:03:07.819 with her questioning theological beliefs vis-a-vis the Catholic Church. I think that's 00:03:07.819 --> 00:03:15.579 actually kind of a healthy thing is to have those conversations. And if you know me at all. 00:03:16.654 --> 00:03:23.073 You will know that I, I mean, I think pretty highly of the Catholic church. 00:03:23.127 --> 00:03:33.179 Right. I, I feel like I do more. I feel like I end up spending more time like giving apologetics 00:03:33.179 --> 00:03:38.124 for like making the Catholics seem reasonable to other people who don't 00:03:38.379 --> 00:03:43.994 like the Catholics. Right, well because here at Conduit we for whatever reason I 00:03:44.099 --> 00:03:55.939 don't know we have a we have a pretty large expat Catholic population of people who have come out of the Catholic Church and who have not had, 00:03:56.381 --> 00:04:06.939 positive experiences and we do a lot of okay well but yes so much so that like 00:04:06.939 --> 00:04:11.299 sometimes maybe we need to clarify that we also aren't Catholic and that we 00:04:11.299 --> 00:04:18.399 don't agree with everything that the Catholic Church does and believes correct it's why we're not Catholic it's why I'm not Catholic right why I'm not a 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:23.037 priest. Also I enjoy being married. 00:04:24.684 --> 00:04:28.774 And so people might see this as an anti-Catholic thing. It's not an anti-Catholic thing. No. 00:04:28.774 --> 00:04:36.294 It's an anti-generalizations, and it's not even a pro-Protestant thing. It's more of like, 00:04:36.294 --> 00:04:45.014 for me, it's more of a like, let's have reasonable discussion based on actual 00:04:45.119 --> 00:04:52.054 truth from scripture and actual truth from history rather than let's put together a 00:04:52.054 --> 00:05:03.814 punchy reel on Instagram to kind of send one over the bow of the church. So if you're watching this, 00:05:03.814 --> 00:05:10.614 whatever your name is, springtime Catholic, I think it is. It's not personal. 00:05:11.019 --> 00:05:19.134 No, it's not. But I think it'll be a good launching pad for us. And also, I don't think, 00:05:19.134 --> 00:05:27.694 I mean, I don't know, Catholicism is such a broad, is so big, and there is so much literature, 00:05:27.694 --> 00:05:32.831 and so many edicts and councils have been had, that I can't say with certainty. But I don't 00:05:33.094 --> 00:05:41.934 think that her technical categorization of the Protestant church as a giant heresy is technically 00:05:41.934 --> 00:05:45.334 the stance of the Catholic church anymore. I don't think so. 00:05:45.723 --> 00:05:52.974 I think they tend to call us something brothers, like disconnected or something like that. I think 00:05:52.974 --> 00:05:56.974 they've- That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that. So, I don't know. Obviously, 00:05:56.974 --> 00:06:02.774 they probably sit in the same category as us and say, well, you know, we think you're wrong. 00:06:02.774 --> 00:06:10.101 But I don't think that the Catholic Church's general posturing and stance as a whole is that. 00:06:10.814 --> 00:06:17.214 Of considering us at large heretics. No, maybe with the exception of denying us the Eucharist, 00:06:17.366 --> 00:06:24.014 but other than that, I don't think so. Yeah. So we'll kind of start by just 00:06:24.014 --> 00:06:31.877 kind of going through. She kind of makes that initial statement, and then she kind of just 00:06:32.094 --> 00:06:39.054 has kind of point by point kind of a statement that she kind of feels like is her, her like. 00:06:40.051 --> 00:06:46.894 I don't know, proof or kind of like, you know, Proposition 1. And so the first one is, 00:06:46.894 --> 00:06:52.574 and you want to talk about something that definitely is a dividing issue for Protestants 00:06:52.574 --> 00:06:56.654 and Catholics, at least as far as like popular ones that gets talked about. 00:06:56.654 --> 00:07:00.574 Can we, can we, can I make one clarifying before we get into the first point? Yes. 00:07:00.711 --> 00:07:07.694 Which is when she says Protestantism is heresy, like understanding what heresy is. 00:07:07.694 --> 00:07:08.543 Yeah, that's a good point. 00:07:08.734 --> 00:07:13.252 Yeah, because it is kind of, it can be a term that you use. 00:07:14.701 --> 00:07:19.631 It attacks, like it's a confusing term for some because of the way that it's been used. 00:07:19.631 --> 00:07:23.325 Well, it's a very, like historically it's complicated. Complicated, yeah. 00:07:23.442 --> 00:07:28.431 But heresy is generally any theological belief, doctrine, or position that goes against 00:07:28.431 --> 00:07:34.551 or flies in the face of what has been well established throughout the history of the church, 00:07:34.551 --> 00:07:42.896 specifically the earliest generations of the church where doctrine was formed out of personal relationship. 00:07:46.311 --> 00:07:54.911 With Jesus and being contemporary to the time of Jesus. And then really being firmly established 00:07:54.911 --> 00:07:59.433 in the ancient creeds, most notably the Nicene Creed. 00:07:59.631 --> 00:08:06.871 You know, first written in 325 AD, then kind of edited and reestablished 00:08:06.871 --> 00:08:09.791 as the Niceno-Constantinople Creed in 381 AD, 00:08:09.791 --> 00:08:14.053 which kind of established what is Orthodox Christian, 00:08:14.891 --> 00:08:22.011 doctrine, which both Protestants and Catholics can and should affirm. 00:08:22.451 --> 00:08:27.351 They do affirm, right? So that's heresy. Anything that flies in the face of 00:08:27.664 --> 00:08:31.871 the established Christian Orthodox doctrine. 00:08:31.871 --> 00:08:42.111 I think heresy is complicated also by the fact that like, churches, both Catholic and Protestant, 00:08:42.111 --> 00:08:45.631 I think, at different points killed people over heresy. Oh, yeah. 00:08:46.591 --> 00:08:52.591 So, like, it's a pretty loaded term, particularly throughout the Middle Ages, it became like, 00:08:53.391 --> 00:08:59.231 heresy became an executionable offense, which is a dark side of church history. 00:08:59.595 --> 00:09:07.598 Yeah. And even like not, maybe not quite as dark, but equally as sinister is it became a way for the 00:09:07.831 --> 00:09:15.311 church as an institution to blockade or for, to use a Catholic term, excommunicate people from 00:09:15.583 --> 00:09:19.831 the community of faith, denying them the Eucharist, denying them any sacraments, denying them the 00:09:19.831 --> 00:09:26.111 fellowship. Which might not sound like a big deal to you if you're a Protestant or particularly if 00:09:26.111 --> 00:09:28.862 you're a non-denominational person through and through, 00:09:28.961 --> 00:09:35.217 but it's a massive deal if you have a Catholic understanding of salvation and the church. 00:09:35.311 --> 00:09:40.007 That's mediated through the Eucharist. Right. So they're in a sense saying, 00:09:40.111 --> 00:09:44.265 we cut off access to salvation for you. 00:09:44.391 --> 00:09:46.650 Yes. You're on your own. Yep. 00:09:48.001 --> 00:09:56.431 So, okay. Okay. So, the first kind of thing she points out is that the Bible tells us to call Mary blessed, 00:09:56.431 --> 00:09:58.326 but Protestants don't. 00:09:58.991 --> 00:09:59.812 Okay. 00:10:00.751 --> 00:10:07.103 So does the Bible, the first question, not even getting into really the, 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:19.218 The theology of Mary herself, right? But it's just a just just the Bible tells us to call Mary blessed but Protestants don't is that, 00:10:20.481 --> 00:10:26.458 True. Well, she has three verses that she quotes. Well, let's look at those three verses. She says, 00:10:27.518 --> 00:10:30.738 verses about Mary Luke chapter 1 verse 48, 00:10:31.301 --> 00:10:39.898 Seems like you should look at that one Okay, and Luke verse 1 or chapter 1 verse 28 and then you look at John chapter 19 00:10:40.018 --> 00:10:42.538 26 through 27 John 19. 00:10:45.030 --> 00:10:52.498 Draw your swords Yeah, Bible drill if you're listening along We expect you to hold that Bible high and quickly turn go, 00:10:52.997 --> 00:11:01.418 Now, who, I mean, it's completely possible that she's probably wanting us to read on the Vulgate. 00:11:01.418 --> 00:11:09.822 You know? She wants us to read the Latin. Right. That would be, yeah. 00:11:10.018 --> 00:11:15.018 So that, mine is John 19, you said? Yeah, John 19, 26 through 27. 00:11:15.018 --> 00:11:19.941 Okay, so this is at the crucifixion of Jesus, the Mary at the foot of the cross. 00:11:20.098 --> 00:11:25.810 When Jesus saw his mother there, Mary, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, 00:11:26.258 --> 00:11:29.141 he said to her, Woman, here is your son. 00:11:30.077 --> 00:11:36.334 And to the disciple, here is your mother. From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." Okay. 00:11:38.026 --> 00:11:47.200 It does not say to call. No, I'm pretty familiar with the Greek of this passage as well, and nowhere is there 00:11:47.371 --> 00:11:49.218 the illusion of calling her blessed. 00:11:49.218 --> 00:11:52.187 I mean, I think the only thing you get from this passage is maybe we should call Mary woman, 00:11:53.818 --> 00:11:58.722 which I'm not sure they would think is very appropriate. No, right? 00:11:58.858 --> 00:12:05.498 So Luke 1, 28 says that the angel went to her and said, greetings, you who are highly favored, 00:12:05.498 --> 00:12:06.581 the Lord is with you. 00:12:06.978 --> 00:12:12.898 And then if I go later in the chapter, she is mentioning verse 48, 00:12:12.898 --> 00:12:16.079 which is probably her strongest verse out of all these verses. 00:12:16.178 --> 00:12:22.218 Verse 48 is the song that Mary is kind of singing, the Magnificat, if you're familiar with that. 00:12:23.138 --> 00:12:29.573 Verse 48 says, "'For he has been mindful of the humble state "'of his servant God, has been mindful of Mary, 00:12:29.627 --> 00:12:36.550 "'and from now on all generations will call me blessed.'" So that would be the. 00:12:39.078 --> 00:12:45.718 That would be probably her strongest at first. But I could be kind of nitpicky about that 00:12:45.718 --> 00:12:56.758 say that that's more of a declarative statement and less of a command statement? Well, and not, yes, I think we can definitely make that point as 00:12:56.758 --> 00:13:03.377 well, but it's also the difference between, you know, like I think you, 00:13:04.238 --> 00:13:08.758 probably consider blessed to be an adjective. 00:13:07.896 --> 00:13:36.856 In that rather than a noun. Yes. Although the Greek doesn't really the Greek language is complicated in the sense of it's not formulated exactly like English is but it's what I'm basically saying is that Mary isn't Mary's not necessarily referring to the word blessed as a title right as much as it is of a like a place where she sits. 00:13:37.756 --> 00:13:43.346 Like she sits in a place of being blessed because of her faith. 00:13:43.428 --> 00:13:45.706 Right. And I would agree. She is blessed. 00:13:46.183 --> 00:13:50.586 She was the mother of God. Of course. Like that's a really important thing. Yeah. 00:13:50.828 --> 00:14:01.066 Um, I do think like, you know, so obviously there is like a way in which I, and we as 00:14:01.066 --> 00:14:06.586 Protestants can come forward and say, well, actually we do think Mary is a blessed 00:14:06.586 --> 00:14:19.306 individual. And maybe there's even room for us to talk about, this is how Catholicism usually comes 00:14:19.306 --> 00:14:27.809 up in conversations I'm having, is usually there is so much fear or hurt around Catholicism that 00:14:28.106 --> 00:14:34.586 usually I end up trying to bridge some of the overcompensation that we've done. So, 00:14:34.586 --> 00:14:48.186 as Protestants, we almost never talk about Mary. And even when we talk about her during Advent. 00:14:51.386 --> 00:14:58.786 There's one particular storyline we like to emphasize. We like to emphasize her plight and 00:14:58.786 --> 00:15:08.786 invulnerability, but we don't always necessarily highlight the faith and the belief and the 00:15:08.786 --> 00:15:16.746 fact that she was chosen, that God did choose her to be the physical mother of Jesus, of God. 00:15:16.746 --> 00:15:19.698 That is a massive deal. 00:15:20.211 --> 00:15:20.796 Massive, yeah. Thank you. 00:15:21.751 --> 00:15:26.721 We don't come to this. That does not, I know it doesn't, come to the same category as the person 00:15:26.721 --> 00:15:30.081 who made this video when she's saying we don't call her Mary. 00:15:30.150 --> 00:15:31.347 We don't call her Mary. 00:15:31.521 --> 00:15:33.481 Yeah. We don't call her Blessed. Blessed, yeah. 00:15:33.761 --> 00:15:47.361 Well, in… The title, I'm assuming. Right. Like we don't hold the perpetual virginity of Mary is not… We believe that James, 00:15:47.361 --> 00:15:53.681 The book of James was written by the biological half-brother of Jesus, so we believe that, 00:15:54.699 --> 00:15:58.801 Mary did go on to have children. She did not remain a virgin her entire life. 00:16:00.541 --> 00:16:05.521 And a whole bunch of other kind of stuff that gets wrapped up in this belief about Mary. 00:16:05.521 --> 00:16:07.329 She was decidedly human. Yes. 00:16:08.112 --> 00:16:23.841 If she was not, she did not share a, any type of miraculously or supernaturally divine part of her being or personality that would somehow give her, you know, special blessedness as is equal to the Lord. 00:16:23.841 --> 00:16:29.261 Lord. Yeah, well it's interesting because like this is one of the 00:16:29.261 --> 00:16:35.421 topics and one of the reasons I think that this Mary becomes a tricky or has 00:16:35.421 --> 00:16:41.021 been a tricky topic for people to juggle theologically is because anytime we come 00:16:41.021 --> 00:16:49.861 close to the line of dealing with God, Christ, being fully human and fully God. 00:16:50.765 --> 00:16:56.341 There is a tension on both sides of those, and I would say the tension that 00:16:56.341 --> 00:17:03.381 we probably run into more often is the tension to remove Christ from humanity a 00:17:03.381 --> 00:17:16.081 little bit. We begin like, it's something that my theological, one of my theology professors at college said, and he was like, it's not untrue to say that 00:17:16.081 --> 00:17:19.167 God died on a cross. 00:17:19.481 --> 00:17:24.321 But if you say that, like I've said that here at church on a Sunday morning and I've seen 00:17:24.321 --> 00:17:27.404 people get visibly like... 00:17:26.963 --> 00:17:35.453 Huh? Right? Because we're not used to talking in those terms, but that is true. Now, God also 00:17:35.453 --> 00:17:42.013 resurrected from the dead, right? And so he was both fully divine and fully human. And at different 00:17:42.013 --> 00:17:48.493 points in the story, we like to emphasize Christ's divinity or his humanity because it might make us 00:17:48.493 --> 00:17:51.611 is uncomfortable to say God died. 00:17:51.733 --> 00:18:00.064 It also makes us uncomfortable to say that God was born of a relatively ordinary woman. 00:18:00.533 --> 00:18:06.303 It can be for people. Right. And that like there was a lot of normalcy there. 00:18:06.933 --> 00:18:11.173 Well, maybe digging into a little bit more, and I know we got a lot of things to talk about 00:18:11.173 --> 00:18:14.133 with this video, but we'll just see where it goes. 00:18:14.133 --> 00:18:22.633 Is like, what are the reasons that a statement like this, like I think what she's doing is she's pointing out 00:18:22.633 --> 00:18:25.514 the angst that Protestants have with Mary. 00:18:26.033 --> 00:18:26.297 Yeah. 00:18:26.993 --> 00:18:29.025 And they'll call her blessed. 00:18:30.193 --> 00:18:34.930 And what is typically the uncomfortableness. 00:18:38.313 --> 00:18:45.693 That Protestants have around the theology or beliefs around Mary that maybe the Catholics have, 00:18:45.693 --> 00:18:50.594 or maybe not so much the orthodoxy of Mary, about the orthopraxy of. 00:18:52.377 --> 00:18:59.827 Worship. Yep What what would your what would your I've got thoughts on that, but I'm interested in know like, 00:19:00.307 --> 00:19:02.447 Why do people why do Protestants get so? 00:19:03.170 --> 00:19:11.507 Angsty about Mary well for Protestants right so like we were teasing a little bit earlier Catholics 00:19:11.894 --> 00:19:24.029 Don't technically believe that you're saved by anything other than Christ but they do believe that things mediate the grace of Christ. And so, and that's, you know, 00:19:24.407 --> 00:19:30.127 and we can dive more into that into the church, but that also comes down into the way in which 00:19:30.127 --> 00:19:40.547 we pray. And so the idea of praying to Mary is very, very off-putting to Protestants because 00:19:40.547 --> 00:19:45.907 Because we so strongly believe that there is one mediator between God and man, and that 00:19:45.907 --> 00:19:51.585 is the Holy Spirit, Christ, God himself, acts as our high priest. 00:19:52.187 --> 00:19:59.527 Therefore, to put anyone as a mediator through any form is to elevate them to a place where 00:19:59.527 --> 00:20:02.847 they're not called to be. 00:20:03.227 --> 00:20:08.947 Do we have good evidence to suggest that that position of there being one mediator between 00:20:08.947 --> 00:20:11.570 God and man, that being Jesus Christ himself. 00:20:12.434 --> 00:20:17.667 I'm pretty sure the Bible says that. Pretty sure the Bible says that in more than one place. Yes. 00:20:17.667 --> 00:20:24.147 And, you know, I'm aware probably the strongest passage on the other side of the argument 00:20:24.147 --> 00:20:29.947 of people who do pray to saints and to Mary is the Hebrews passage, Hebrews 12. 00:20:30.556 --> 00:20:36.227 But even though they act as a cloud of witnesses, there's nothing there indicating that we ought 00:20:36.227 --> 00:20:37.227 to be praying for them. 00:20:37.227 --> 00:20:45.267 That is a theological… And even to put that into biblical context, Hebrews probably speaks the most directly 00:20:45.267 --> 00:20:50.507 about there being one mediator, one great high priest, and that being Jesus Christ. 00:20:50.507 --> 00:20:52.908 Melchizedek, priest and king. Yes. 00:20:54.159 --> 00:21:01.013 So that's a theological sticking point. And so the reason why Protestants probably often put such 00:21:01.013 --> 00:21:06.933 a strong arm against any talk around Mary is because of they want to protect. 00:21:06.933 --> 00:21:10.933 They don't even want to approach the worship of Mary. Exactly. 00:21:11.973 --> 00:21:15.573 Okay. So, and was there anything else you wanted to say on that topic? 00:21:15.711 --> 00:21:21.333 Oh, there's so much I want to say. There's only so much I'm willing to say right now. 00:21:21.333 --> 00:21:28.133 Okay, okay All right next point this one. We'll see if we can get off of this topic once we get on it, 00:21:29.511 --> 00:21:36.813 Jesus tells us to consume the Eucharist as it is truly his body, but Protestantism doesn't teach that, 00:21:38.793 --> 00:21:39.153 Okay. 00:21:41.333 --> 00:21:52.170 So So we have a whole episode that we would like to do yeah on on the sacraments. Yes. 00:21:52.513 --> 00:21:59.939 And the Eucharist, or what Protestants probably know it better as is communion, is, 00:22:00.953 --> 00:22:03.342 one of two main sacraments. 00:22:03.433 --> 00:22:06.913 One of the two main sacraments that the Protestant church celebrates, right? 00:22:06.913 --> 00:22:10.139 We can quibble over the amount of sacraments, but it. 00:22:10.273 --> 00:22:13.730 That being communion and baptism. 00:22:13.953 --> 00:22:14.838 And the washing of feet. 00:22:15.864 --> 00:22:26.078 Marriage. Anyways, we're gonna get in trouble. But no, the two being Eucharist or the communion 00:22:26.078 --> 00:22:33.998 and baptism. So let's try to first, without getting into too many differences between 00:22:33.998 --> 00:22:38.982 between like Second Vatican Council and all of that. 00:22:39.078 --> 00:22:43.375 What is the Catholic position on the Eucharist. 00:22:46.278 --> 00:22:53.398 Or on communion from a theological standpoint? Now, what was the statement again that? 00:22:54.818 --> 00:23:01.289 Jesus tells us to consume the Eucharist as it is truly his body, 00:23:01.558 --> 00:23:04.728 But Protestantism does not teach that. 00:23:04.854 --> 00:23:10.398 All right, so it's maybe kind of hard to determine what she's actually saying we don't teach, 00:23:10.398 --> 00:23:17.340 whether that the Eucharist is his body or that we don't have to take it or consume it. 00:23:17.394 --> 00:23:21.031 So maybe we can kind of take them in two different steps. 00:23:21.398 --> 00:23:29.958 Does Protestantism, which is, again, a super wide brush, because what Protestantism are you talking about? 00:23:29.958 --> 00:23:34.158 So we're talking about everything from Lutheranism to us, which is very different. 00:23:34.158 --> 00:23:41.124 Right. You have Episcopalian, which is like a sliver away from being Catholic. Right. Anglicans. 00:23:41.358 --> 00:23:48.605 Church of England, yeah. Or you have non-denominational conduit ministries in the middle of Jamestown, New York, which 00:23:48.678 --> 00:23:51.678 doesn't look like anything highly liturgical. 00:23:51.678 --> 00:23:57.779 Right. You're Baptist, you're fundamentalists, you're independents, you're free churches, you're... 00:23:58.198 --> 00:23:59.165 Right. 00:23:59.588 --> 00:24:01.271 So, so. 00:24:02.388 --> 00:24:08.478 Protestantism doesn't teach that we should take communion. It's just, I don't even want to address 00:24:08.478 --> 00:24:12.558 that because it's not even worth it. Of course we take communion, and of course we think that 00:24:12.558 --> 00:24:23.278 it's important. Yes. Well, so, yeah. So, it is, I guess I have my opinions about the frequency in 00:24:23.278 --> 00:24:28.958 which churches should practice taking communion. I am of the opinion that we should practice it 00:24:28.958 --> 00:24:37.198 more frequently. I know that in the past our tradition of churches have kind of strayed away 00:24:37.198 --> 00:24:42.398 from doing that because the fear out of doing it on a regular basis makes us look Catholic. 00:24:42.398 --> 00:24:50.398 Makes us look Catholic. Or devalues it. Or that we're just doing it because it's what we always do. Right? So they 00:24:50.398 --> 00:24:56.878 wanted to reinvigorate meaning into it. And so there's so much there. I think that was the wrong 00:24:56.878 --> 00:25:04.118 decision. I think you reinvigorate meaning by exploring and teaching the meaning, not by doing 00:25:04.118 --> 00:25:13.078 it less. And so, I'm not going to be naive. I know that there are churches out there that rarely. 00:25:13.371 --> 00:25:20.838 If ever, do communion, and that makes me angry. I think we should do communion. 00:25:21.086 --> 00:25:25.118 Yeah. I don't know if I'm angry about it, but I certainly think that they're missing 00:25:25.118 --> 00:25:29.017 something in their theology. And I certainly think they're missing something in their practice. 00:25:29.062 --> 00:25:36.958 Do I think that Jesus, do I think that Jesus tells us to take communion? 00:25:41.078 --> 00:25:48.002 I think that's a tricky statement because, because I don't think that what Jesus was doing 00:25:48.078 --> 00:25:52.747 at the Last Supper, Matthew 25, you know, was. 00:25:54.331 --> 00:26:02.685 I don't think that Jesus had in his mind in that moment, I'm establishing a sacrament for my church to use 00:26:02.821 --> 00:26:06.880 for now until I come home, or until I come back to earth. 00:26:08.761 --> 00:26:15.341 I don't necessarily think that he was thinking in the same way about communion in particular 00:26:15.341 --> 00:26:21.392 as we would want to say that he was thinking and what he was trying to institute in that moment. 00:26:21.721 --> 00:26:34.161 I think that I agree that we don't take communion enough. I agree that it has lost, 00:26:34.161 --> 00:26:45.481 in its infrequency, has lost some of its meaning which actually goes like the opposite of why 00:26:45.481 --> 00:26:49.201 why people were doing it infrequently, right? 00:26:50.761 --> 00:26:55.301 But I think it goes to the reason that you would do it more frequently would be, 00:26:55.301 --> 00:26:59.444 and this is why, this is one of the things that I love about the Catholic faith, 00:26:59.581 --> 00:27:06.281 is one of the reasons that you would do it every week or would do it so frequently is because of how central 00:27:06.281 --> 00:27:10.721 it is to proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ, 00:27:10.721 --> 00:27:16.121 the broken body of Jesus Christ, to shed blood of Jesus Christ for the remission 00:27:16.121 --> 00:27:22.985 and forgiveness of our sins and us taking that by faith, receiving by faith the forgiveness of Jesus Christ 00:27:23.081 --> 00:27:25.947 for our sins, I don't think it becomes, 00:27:26.261 --> 00:27:32.339 I don't think that message becomes less important the more you do it if the basis of it is understanding 00:27:32.521 --> 00:27:35.521 it's God's gift to us in Jesus Christ. 00:27:35.521 --> 00:27:40.324 You wouldn't, any other gift to us in Jesus Christ from God, 00:27:40.401 --> 00:27:49.041 we wouldn't be like, I only want this on the first Sunday every month, because if I get the gift every week, then it won't be as important or special to me. 00:27:49.146 --> 00:27:49.361 Right. 00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:57.521 Anyway. Anyways, so all that to say, simply at least addressing the potential of her two points 00:27:57.521 --> 00:28:01.761 in this one point, Protestants do teach that you should take communion. Correct. 00:28:02.595 --> 00:28:06.401 Like, it would be, like, we can say that with a broad stroke. 00:28:06.401 --> 00:28:10.328 And these two Protestants think that we should probably take it more than once a month. 00:28:10.661 --> 00:28:10.801 Yes. 00:28:11.715 --> 00:28:18.401 Yeah. And then so the second part of that then is that she might be emphasizing not the first part, 00:28:18.401 --> 00:28:23.481 but the second part, which is the part where there is some difference between what Protestants 00:28:23.481 --> 00:28:31.681 teach and Catholics teach. And how does she put it? She puts it, consume the Eucharist as it is 00:28:31.681 --> 00:28:37.801 truly his body. So… RL – So this is the point, this is the theological point of the Eucharist 00:28:37.801 --> 00:28:42.321 that usually is most significant in departure from Protestantism and 00:28:42.637 --> 00:28:48.801 Catholicism is what actually is the Eucharist? What is the bread? What is the 00:28:48.801 --> 00:28:55.700 cup or the wine or the juice or whatever what is it and Catholics would say 00:28:54.845 --> 00:28:59.021 They would say a big fancy word called transubstantiation. Transubstantiation. 00:28:59.695 --> 00:29:07.495 Yep, that one. Transubstantiation, in case you didn't get that and us trying to say it together. 00:29:07.495 --> 00:29:10.455 And again, I am not a Catholic scholar. 00:29:10.455 --> 00:29:15.892 I want to say that very clearly. 00:29:16.175 --> 00:29:21.295 And there's been volumes and volumes and volumes and probably people literally killed over 00:29:21.295 --> 00:29:24.975 divergent beliefs on transubstantiation. 00:29:25.075 --> 00:29:25.524 Definitely. 00:29:26.181 --> 00:29:33.122 Yeah. So we wade into waters that are a little murky with blood, honestly. Yeah. 00:29:33.315 --> 00:29:43.196 But that the elements in the proclamation of the gospel, in the words of institution by the priest, 00:29:43.315 --> 00:29:46.076 that they actually transform. 00:29:46.455 --> 00:29:52.295 Yes. become the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ. 00:29:53.415 --> 00:29:58.415 Now, not that the bread will then appear in its form. 00:30:02.495 --> 00:30:06.655 To be flesh in its essence. Right, so there's this whole, 00:30:06.655 --> 00:30:09.175 that's where it gets a little bit murky for us, 00:30:09.175 --> 00:30:14.415 is that it's an understanding that the bread remains looking like bread and tasting like bread, 00:30:14.415 --> 00:30:17.375 and the wine remains like juice or wine. 00:30:18.935 --> 00:30:26.488 But the essence of it, its true essence behind curtains of sense 00:30:26.587 --> 00:30:30.195 become the body of Christ in its trueness. 00:30:30.195 --> 00:30:35.373 So that's a really philosophical and very platonic and Greek understanding, 00:30:35.490 --> 00:30:39.195 but that's my best attempt at explaining it. 00:30:39.195 --> 00:30:45.395 Right, and I guess my question for Catholic scholars, if you're a Catholic scholar and you're listening to this 00:30:45.395 --> 00:30:51.795 or watching this or whatever, make a reply video or jump in the comments or whatever. 00:30:54.435 --> 00:31:01.722 But where is the, it feels a little bit to me like a distinction without there being a real difference. 00:31:03.155 --> 00:31:15.155 It still looks like bread and it still looks like wine, like wine, but in a supernatural sense, it is actually the body and blood of Jesus. 00:31:15.155 --> 00:31:21.595 Al-Right. So that's the Catholic view, and then if we get into…there's a wide range of views 00:31:21.595 --> 00:31:31.075 within Prostantism. And there's…I can't even remember the Lutheran name for theirs, 00:31:31.075 --> 00:31:37.355 which is so similar, it's almost difficult to parse the difference. 00:31:37.355 --> 00:31:39.355 I don't recall it either. 00:31:39.676 --> 00:31:44.555 Or there's the Reformed view, I think, that the presence of God is... 00:31:45.879 --> 00:31:47.706 Above, under, and in. 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:55.129 There's this very large category, which is just kind of the catch-all, which is, I'll put my cards, 00:31:55.129 --> 00:31:58.169 which is probably where I land, which is real presence. 00:31:58.569 --> 00:32:10.849 It's just generally we believe God is present in the Eucharist or in the elements, but I'm not gonna tell you how he's present, right? Like I'm not gonna, it's a spiritual presence, 00:32:10.849 --> 00:32:14.769 it's a physical presence, it's an essence presence. I'm not gonna make any, 00:32:15.667 --> 00:32:22.289 jump to that conclusion because I don't feel like the Bible clearly defines that. 00:32:22.289 --> 00:32:22.969 Right. 00:32:23.166 --> 00:32:28.689 And then there would be people who would say these are symbols. Correct. 00:32:28.689 --> 00:32:34.529 And so, and the biblical basis for all of those views I feel like is just as substantial. Some 00:32:34.529 --> 00:32:41.529 people look at the passage where Christ institutes the supper and he says, do this in remembrance in 00:32:41.529 --> 00:32:47.809 me and make that the emphasis and others read that in passage and they see where Christ 00:32:47.809 --> 00:32:55.149 says this is my body, this is my blood poured out and broken and shed for you and make that the emphasis. 00:32:55.149 --> 00:32:56.744 And so that's kind of the... 00:32:57.330 --> 00:33:04.089 Yeah, I mean, for instance, if you look in the Matthew account, Matthew 26, starting 00:33:04.089 --> 00:33:06.287 verse 26, I said 25 earlier. 00:33:06.449 --> 00:33:09.807 While they were eating, Jesus took bread. 00:33:10.716 --> 00:33:13.929 When he had given thanks, he broke it and he gave it to his disciples saying, 00:33:13.929 --> 00:33:16.315 take and eat, this is my body. 00:33:16.414 --> 00:33:22.410 Then he took a cup and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them saying, drink from it, all of you. 00:33:22.842 --> 00:33:28.469 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 00:33:28.469 --> 00:33:35.967 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now until that day, when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom." 00:33:36.228 --> 00:33:39.189 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives. 00:33:41.936 --> 00:33:45.087 There's not a whole lot there. No. 00:33:45.483 --> 00:33:54.917 You know, so there's not a lot by way of what does the scripture actually say. 00:33:55.247 --> 00:34:02.083 It becomes, I think, a game of spiritual or theological inference. 00:34:02.687 --> 00:34:11.850 What did Jesus mean behind the things that he was saying, which is a really, I don't, 00:34:13.847 --> 00:34:19.447 know, dangerous maybe is not the right word, but it becomes an exercise in futility to 00:34:19.447 --> 00:34:23.807 say this is what Jesus actually meant. 00:34:23.807 --> 00:34:30.447 You know, in the Mark account, Mark 14, while they were eating, Jesus took bread. 00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:34.447 When he had given thanks, he broke it, gave it to his disciples, saying, Take it, this 00:34:34.447 --> 00:34:36.445 is my body. Then he took the cup. 00:34:36.687 --> 00:34:39.247 When he had given thanks, he gave it to them. They all drank from it. 00:34:39.247 --> 00:34:44.447 This is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many." Essentially, it says the same thing as in Matthew. 00:34:44.447 --> 00:34:47.087 Truly, I tell you, I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until that day 00:34:47.087 --> 00:34:51.091 when I drink anew with you in the kingdom of God. 00:34:52.327 --> 00:35:07.917 So I suppose, I don't know, it makes me want to do a little bit more re-study and re-reading, 00:35:08.538 --> 00:35:17.247 on the nature of the history of Catholic theology and how even the doctrine of substantiation 00:35:17.247 --> 00:35:22.287 was—do you know how the doctrine of substantiation was formed or what it was formed out of? 00:35:22.287 --> 00:35:38.247 I do not. I do not. It definitely was a developed theology, though. It was not something that we've 00:35:38.247 --> 00:35:45.567 got a whole lot of indication that the early church had the exact same understanding that 00:35:45.663 --> 00:35:47.950 the current Catholic Church has over that. 00:35:48.760 --> 00:35:49.435 Yeah. 00:35:50.938 --> 00:35:59.087 Yeah, I mean, so the Luke account, Luke 22, verse 19, took bread, gave thanks, broke it, 00:35:59.087 --> 00:36:01.705 gave it to them saying, this is my body given for you. 00:36:02.407 --> 00:36:05.081 Do this in remembrance of me. 00:36:06.047 --> 00:36:08.927 In the same way after the supper, he took the cup saying, this is the cup of the new 00:36:08.927 --> 00:36:11.823 covenant in my blood which is poured out for you. 00:36:13.822 --> 00:36:19.350 That's it. Yep. 00:36:22.815 --> 00:36:31.385 So, nothing about, like, do this in remembrance of me? It's not really clear what that even means. 00:36:31.673 --> 00:36:41.785 No, not necessarily. Yeah, I think John's probably, at least John is the passage, or the gospel that I hear 00:36:41.785 --> 00:36:50.345 most quoted often with sacramental theology surrounding communion. 00:36:50.345 --> 00:36:54.025 I'm interested to see if that account is a little bit more robust in any way. 00:36:54.025 --> 00:37:02.065 But I don't think it has any unique elements that are that, again, it's where 00:37:02.065 --> 00:37:14.164 the emphasis is lying and how we're deciding to understand Jesus. Is Jesus speaking in some sort of literal sense where he's saying, this is my body, this 00:37:14.345 --> 00:37:21.345 is my blood? Or is he doing so with an understanding of metaphor? What does it 00:37:21.345 --> 00:37:30.999 mean to be doing something in remembrance of me? Does that simply mean calling into mind or in doing in remembrance in that it's actually. 00:37:31.225 --> 00:37:39.665 Reenacting in a very spiritual sense of what Christ has done? So, the range of 00:37:39.665 --> 00:37:43.465 meanings there that are possible to kind of understand from that passage is wide. 00:37:43.465 --> 00:37:57.905 All right, what's our next question? All right. So let's see. Next question. Our next statement. 00:37:57.905 --> 00:38:05.265 Oh, this one's fun. Jesus gave us the papacy, yet that is commonly rejected. 00:38:07.287 --> 00:38:10.705 Please tell me she's got verses for it. Oh, she's got verses for that. 00:38:10.705 --> 00:38:13.825 Is it like you are Peter on this rock? 00:38:13.825 --> 00:38:25.039 Her only verse for this particular point is in Matthew 16, 18-19, which I'm guessing is the Peter passage. 00:38:29.711 --> 00:38:39.785 It's the passage where, you know, who do you say that I am? Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, still there's Jeremiah or one of the prophets. 00:38:39.785 --> 00:38:42.477 But what about you?" he asked. Who do you say that I am? 00:38:42.705 --> 00:38:45.753 And Peter answered, you are the Messiah, the son of the living God. 00:38:46.267 --> 00:38:49.705 Jesus replied, blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you 00:38:49.705 --> 00:38:55.785 by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the 00:38:55.785 --> 00:38:57.240 gates of Hades will not overcome it. 00:38:58.025 --> 00:39:02.425 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. 00:39:02.425 --> 00:39:04.705 Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. 00:39:05.126 --> 00:39:07.134 Okay, so that's fairly predictable. 00:39:08.007 --> 00:39:21.297 He also calls Peter Satan in the next verse. I'd be interested to see that integrated into papal theology. 00:39:21.297 --> 00:39:34.977 So the idea here in Catholic theology is that the papacy or the office of Pope has come as an 00:39:34.977 --> 00:39:45.017 instituted, I guess you could call it office or position within the true Jesus-instituted church. 00:39:45.017 --> 00:39:54.337 And I think that there was a time, a historical period where it was out of the actual lineage 00:39:54.337 --> 00:40:02.696 of Peter that a pope had to be. CB. Yes, I think so too. He had to somehow be a disciple of Peter, 00:40:02.977 --> 00:40:04.337 for having been. 00:40:04.337 --> 00:40:09.657 But then at some point, again, I suppose I need to buff up on my Catholic history, 00:40:09.657 --> 00:40:16.496 it became one who essentially stands within the spiritual lineage of Peter. 00:40:17.297 --> 00:40:22.977 Which is usually a cardinal, right? Someone who's coming out of the office of cardinal in the Catholic 00:40:22.977 --> 00:40:33.297 church. And so now Jesus has obviously established that Pope Francis is the 00:40:33.297 --> 00:40:41.208 leader of the true church. Well first let me just be the one to say that like I, 00:40:41.783 --> 00:40:48.137 can affirm her statement. Protestants don't teach the papacy. 00:40:48.137 --> 00:40:54.137 Protestants do not teach that Jesus established the papacy. Correct. 00:40:54.137 --> 00:41:00.274 So we can agree with this particular point. We are not papists. 00:41:00.537 --> 00:41:03.767 No. No, we believe that there is one leader of the church. 00:41:04.497 --> 00:41:08.484 Christ. Jesus Christ. Exactly. Jesus Christ alone. 00:41:08.857 --> 00:41:15.097 He calls men and women to serve him and to lead in a place of service and humility according 00:41:15.097 --> 00:41:19.977 of the giftings that the Spirit has given to those people by faith in him. 00:41:19.977 --> 00:41:25.857 And correct, I do not believe that there is a long spiritual line or lineage tracing back 00:41:25.857 --> 00:41:30.577 to the actual person of Peter or the spiritual lineage of Peter that must be established 00:41:30.577 --> 00:41:31.521 in order to lead the church. 00:41:31.665 --> 00:41:35.417 Yeah, we understand that passage referring to Peter as... 00:41:36.364 --> 00:41:42.694 Being an establishment of the church, right? And the authority of the church, 00:41:43.404 --> 00:41:45.974 not the authority of the office of papacy. 00:41:46.906 --> 00:41:55.014 Yeah, or like the question there in what Jesus says, you are right, and I will call you Peter, 00:41:55.170 --> 00:41:57.414 and on this rock, I will build my church. 00:41:57.414 --> 00:42:06.018 Right. Oh, yeah, yeah. What is the rock? Well, it's a little bit of a play on words with Jesus, okay, because the word, the name Peter 00:42:06.254 --> 00:42:15.974 actually literally meant rock in the Greek. But I don't think that the Greek, the actual Greek of 00:42:15.974 --> 00:42:24.814 that whole passage is very clear on Jesus saying, it is on you, Peter, as a person that I will build 00:42:24.814 --> 00:42:32.334 the church. But instead, seems to, because it is in keeping with the rest of the theology of Jesus. 00:42:34.240 --> 00:42:40.814 That it is on the truth of the proclamation of Peter, where he says, where Peter says, 00:42:40.814 --> 00:42:52.094 you are the Messiah, the son of the living God. That it is upon the proclamation of Jesus' Lordship. 00:42:51.686 --> 00:43:00.376 His messiahship that the church is built. Now, that would square very clearly with all of the 00:43:00.376 --> 00:43:06.136 rest of Orthodox theology that we have, all the Pauline epistles, the rest of the Gospels, 00:43:06.136 --> 00:43:16.656 that it is on the proclamation of Jesus as Lord that the church is built, not the fairly impetuous 00:43:16.656 --> 00:43:18.976 disciple Peter that the church has built. 00:43:18.976 --> 00:43:26.256 Well, and the thing too being is that we don't see really much. Peter absolutely was a significant 00:43:26.256 --> 00:43:31.656 leader in the early church and during the time in which a significant portion of the New Testament 00:43:31.656 --> 00:43:41.936 was written. But we don't get any reference to edicts or anything approaching Peter operating 00:43:41.936 --> 00:43:46.321 and what would be easily identified as an office of Pope. 00:43:46.375 --> 00:43:53.216 If anything, the New Testament would make a stronger argument for Paul as acting as a Pope of sorts. 00:43:53.216 --> 00:44:02.120 Right, and if Paul believed that Jesus established Peter as the papal line, or the papal head of the church. 00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:04.137 He certainly wouldn't have gone to Jerusalem. 00:44:04.632 --> 00:44:09.052 And confronted him to his face, as he says in the Book of Acts. 00:44:09.256 --> 00:44:13.896 I'd like to see someone go do that with the current Pope. I would love the opportunity. 00:44:16.056 --> 00:44:22.936 I doubt that I'll get it. So yeah, we don't affirm. Agreed. Agreed. Yep, she's right. We 00:44:22.936 --> 00:44:32.368 don't teach that. We are saved by faith alone. The Bible says so yet. Oh, no, no, no. Let me say 00:44:32.776 --> 00:44:38.021 this correct. She is stating the fact, this is her assertion, she says that we 00:44:38.296 --> 00:44:43.630 are not saved by faith alone. The Bible says so, yet that is rejected. 00:44:45.781 --> 00:44:53.191 I'm still confused as to really what she's actually saying there or what she's asserting. Well, she's asserting two different verses from James and, 00:44:54.151 --> 00:45:01.831 Two different passages from Matthew, but okay, so we know the James one James ones, right? Yeah, you know we are, 00:45:02.511 --> 00:45:05.231 You see that faith in faith and works, 00:45:06.621 --> 00:45:12.851 Working together. Yeah, and then she's talking about Matthew Matthew 19, 17 and Matthew 26. 00:45:12.851 --> 00:45:17.604 So I'll go to James just so that we're clear here. 00:45:17.971 --> 00:45:28.771 So she's looking at 2, 14 through 17 and 2, 24. So what good is it my brothers and sisters if someone claims to have faith but has no 00:45:28.771 --> 00:45:31.053 deeds can such faith save him? 00:45:31.211 --> 00:45:34.611 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 00:45:34.611 --> 00:45:38.611 If one of you says to them, go in peace, keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about 00:45:38.611 --> 00:45:42.972 their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, 00:45:43.045 --> 00:45:45.187 if it's not accompanied by action, is dead. 00:45:47.451 --> 00:45:51.237 But someone will say, you have faith, I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, 00:45:51.371 --> 00:45:53.055 and I will show you my faith by deeds. 00:45:56.386 --> 00:46:03.171 Was that it? Two, 14, three, 18? Yep, and then 24. 24. 00:46:04.211 --> 00:46:09.971 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. 00:46:09.971 --> 00:46:13.651 Very clear in that, which is not clear in the English, 00:46:13.651 --> 00:46:18.651 but which is very clear in the Greek, is the emphasis of the language there 00:46:18.651 --> 00:46:21.571 at the beginning of the sentence, you see. 00:46:21.571 --> 00:46:25.491 It's not a declarative statement, it's actually a statement of being able 00:46:25.491 --> 00:46:28.290 to visually inspect with the senses 00:46:28.611 --> 00:46:37.611 the validity or the strength of someone's faith or the fruit by which their faith expresses itself 00:46:37.611 --> 00:46:44.719 in daily life, and the fruit by which my internal faith in Jesus Christ, my saving faith expresses itself, 00:46:44.811 --> 00:46:46.510 should express itself in works. 00:46:47.031 --> 00:46:53.136 Bottom line is like, if you can't tell that I have saving faith in Jesus Christ 00:46:53.391 --> 00:47:00.977 by the things that I do or don't do in life, then it should be a question of whether or not 00:47:01.171 --> 00:47:03.930 that faith truly exists. 00:47:04.051 --> 00:47:11.375 It's not as if my works or non-works substantiate or create my faith. 00:47:11.491 --> 00:47:17.595 It's that those things establish my faith as empirical fruit and empirical evidence 00:47:17.691 --> 00:47:19.945 that faith already exists within me. 00:47:21.051 --> 00:47:27.511 So what's Matthew? So Matthew, she is mentioning, oh, let me make sure I got this right. 00:47:27.511 --> 00:47:34.925 Matthew 19, 17, which says, Why do you ask me about what is good? 00:47:35.011 --> 00:47:40.083 Jesus replied, There is only one who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments. 00:47:40.857 --> 00:47:48.221 And then Jesus goes in to kind of teach about the Ten Commandments, and then she's mentioning Matthew chapter, 00:47:49.587 --> 00:47:55.687 26. This one, not entirely sure why she's mentioning this one. Matthew 26 verse 40, 00:47:56.593 --> 00:48:03.247 which is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, and it says Then he returned to the disciples and found them sleeping. 00:48:04.236 --> 00:48:07.027 Couldn't you men keep watching with me for one hour? He asked Peter. 00:48:10.114 --> 00:48:20.187 Okay. So she is either quoting the wrong verse, or I am just vastly missing her extrapolation from 00:48:20.386 --> 00:48:28.467 that passage. Well, I think even if it is, the gospel passages are pretty weak in terms of making 00:48:28.467 --> 00:48:32.707 her argument. James probably makes the strongest argument, but it doesn't make it well when you 00:48:32.707 --> 00:48:40.173 understand the whole thrust of James' argument. And the remain, this is classic, what we call 00:48:40.335 --> 00:48:44.627 proof texting in the church, which is you grab a verse, you pull it out of its context. 00:48:45.998 --> 00:48:50.547 Not only the context of the original place that it was written or for the reason that it was 00:48:50.547 --> 00:48:55.827 written, but you pull it out of the context of the whole counsel of Scripture. Because if you 00:48:55.827 --> 00:49:02.337 were to line up all of the verses that even kind of alluded to salvation by works, James chapter 2, 00:49:02.562 --> 00:49:11.587 Kind of, maybe, but not really. And then you lined up all of them that not just alluded, 00:49:11.587 --> 00:49:20.147 but flat out say, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ and not by work so that no 00:49:20.147 --> 00:49:27.267 one can boast. That's Ephesians chapter two. It could not be more clear in the whole counsel 00:49:27.267 --> 00:49:32.147 of Scripture that we are saved through the grace of Jesus Christ to us by faith. 00:49:32.147 --> 00:49:40.467 Right. Yeah. I think the thing that comes down to is maybe that sometimes we have an anemic 00:49:40.467 --> 00:49:48.437 understanding of faith, right? Faith as being simple assenting to a belief. 00:49:48.536 --> 00:49:49.027 Yes. 00:49:49.185 --> 00:49:55.288 Right? It's just simply like faith is nothing more than saying that I believe Jesus to be God, right? 00:49:55.667 --> 00:50:06.147 Well, doesn't James say that doesn't he say sorry to cut you all no No, like doesn't he say even demons believe that and they shudder. Yes, he does, you know, you're right 00:50:06.307 --> 00:50:09.647 He says you see that a person is considered. 00:50:10.547 --> 00:50:18.307 Or no, where was it? Oh, yeah Show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 00:50:18.307 --> 00:50:19.819 You believe that there is one God. 00:50:20.837 --> 00:50:28.767 Great, right? That's the ascent, right? We just believe in a principle, right? Even demons believe 00:50:28.767 --> 00:50:37.567 that, and they shudder. Yeah. Yes. So taking all of scripture together, right? We understand that 00:50:37.567 --> 00:50:47.327 we are saved by faith, but that faith is more than a simple mental ascension to something or 00:50:47.327 --> 00:50:50.715 or belief of something, it is also a, 00:50:50.847 --> 00:50:54.487 like, it's a full grabbing onto Jesus. 00:50:54.487 --> 00:50:58.307 I don't know how else to kind of say that. And that results in works. 00:50:58.307 --> 00:51:05.847 Well, it's a loving, it's a love of the Lord, our God, with not just our mind, right? 00:51:05.847 --> 00:51:11.927 Not just an empirical or an ascenting belief, but with all of our heart, all of our soul, 00:51:11.927 --> 00:51:14.580 all of our mind, and with all of our strength, 00:51:14.807 --> 00:51:22.727 and to love your neighbor as yourself, which we would assume would be a demonstrable type of action. 00:51:22.727 --> 00:51:27.687 Right, Jesus often in the gospels, right now I'm looking at a bunch of passages 00:51:27.687 --> 00:51:34.127 where Jesus talks about trees that bear fruit, and you know the tree by the fruit which it bears, 00:51:34.127 --> 00:51:36.482 so like our works would be the fruit. 00:51:37.687 --> 00:51:40.020 And the faith would be the type of tree we are. 00:51:40.380 --> 00:51:47.807 Right? We become children of God and we bear fruit because we are children of God. CB Yes. 00:51:47.807 --> 00:51:57.967 RL And not that we tape fruit onto the tree to make it a certain tree, right? Like if I were to take an apple and tape it onto the branch of an 00:51:57.967 --> 00:52:03.597 orange tree, it does not become an apple tree, right? And so, this is where that kind of our 00:52:03.887 --> 00:52:09.087 prioritization phase comes. CB So, you're correct. 00:52:09.087 --> 00:52:09.377 RL Yeah. 00:52:09.567 --> 00:52:11.645 We do not preach that salvation is by faith. 00:52:12.087 --> 00:52:13.824 We don't preach that, because it's not true. 00:52:16.516 --> 00:52:19.504 Or that salvation is by works. We do preach that it is by faith. 00:52:19.607 --> 00:52:25.689 Right, yes. She is again correct. She is accusing us and we are found guilty. 00:52:25.807 --> 00:52:27.567 And we'll be happily guilty of it. 00:52:28.607 --> 00:52:33.407 The next thing is, and this will be an interesting one to parse. 00:52:33.407 --> 00:52:36.339 The Bible does not teach sola scriptura. 00:52:37.365 --> 00:52:44.887 Correct. Right. So for those who don't know what Sola Scriptura is, Cameron, what is Sola Scriptura? 00:52:44.887 --> 00:52:50.407 Sola meaning only or soul and Scriptura meaning scripture, right? That scripture, 00:52:50.407 --> 00:52:55.946 scripture only, or only scripture as part of the five solas of the Reformation. 00:52:58.376 --> 00:53:04.422 So that's one of them right for those who Gloria yeah who are not listening or who are listening 00:53:04.422 --> 00:53:08.018 I have tattoo on my arm says solely Darrell Gloria only for the glory of God yes, 00:53:09.881 --> 00:53:14.625 So what does solo scripture mean you're so you say like only? 00:53:15.471 --> 00:53:18.502 Scripture, but what does that like theologically mean? 00:53:23.024 --> 00:53:33.062 Well I mean it It depends on who you ask. I feel a little bit like Jordan Peterson right now. It's like, 00:53:33.350 --> 00:53:37.302 the question is dumb. The question is not clear. 00:53:37.302 --> 00:53:45.262 Well, so this is the way I've heard it explained. And I think a lot of people take sola scriptura 00:53:45.262 --> 00:53:56.022 to mean that the Bible is the only authority on all things. That's how it gets played out 00:53:56.022 --> 00:54:02.142 in a lot of places. And that's where we get into, and we have an earlier episode about this, 00:54:02.427 --> 00:54:08.622 one of the first episodes we did, where we take the Bible and we try and make it to be a textbook 00:54:08.622 --> 00:54:15.782 or Wikipedia book about everything, and we come up asking the Bible really strange questions that it 00:54:15.782 --> 00:54:20.855 was never intended to answer. And so it doesn't have an answer, and we end up extrapolating things. 00:54:21.342 --> 00:54:30.342 From it that aren't there. I've heard someone make an apologetic for Sola Scriptura, and they 00:54:30.342 --> 00:54:38.062 have said that it does not mean so low, it's the only, but that it is the highest 00:54:38.062 --> 00:54:53.382 authority for the things which it chooses to speak upon. So like over what the Bible proposes to teach, so it proposes to teach the nature of God, 00:54:53.382 --> 00:55:02.502 it is the highest authority on the nature of God. So that's the definition I was given when I was 00:55:02.502 --> 00:55:11.582 younger, but I have encountered so many people who are angry about Sola Scriptura, but they're 00:55:11.582 --> 00:55:22.422 angry about it because they seem to understand it as meaning that the Bible is the highest and 00:55:22.422 --> 00:55:26.662 only authority on pretty much all topics. It's a limiting doctrine. 00:55:26.662 --> 00:55:32.742 And so, the qualifications that I'm making, at least the understanding I had once upon a time, 00:55:33.302 --> 00:55:41.142 is that it's not the only, it just happens to be the highest. So, the highest, not the only. 00:55:41.942 --> 00:55:47.462 So, there's other ways that we can, like nature reveals things about God, it provides an avenue 00:55:47.462 --> 00:55:52.602 for general revelation to still exist, but then also it limits itself to the 00:55:52.602 --> 00:55:57.882 scope through which the purpose of the Bible. 00:55:57.494 --> 00:56:02.304 I'm going to take a moment and just say that like, that's what I was told a long time ago. 00:56:03.084 --> 00:56:07.824 And I don't actually know if that's a, just someone's really nice apologetic that they kind 00:56:07.824 --> 00:56:13.824 of came up with as a better alternative to what solo scripture has actually meant throughout the 00:56:13.824 --> 00:56:21.584 history of the church. My, whether or not that is a representation of what, and what that doctrine 00:56:21.584 --> 00:56:26.944 in that phrase has, has meant and continues to mean, I'm not entirely sure. But I would say I 00:56:26.944 --> 00:56:31.944 I am closer to that than the Bible is the only 00:56:31.984 --> 00:56:35.601 and the highest on everything opinion. 00:56:35.784 --> 00:56:43.001 I would agree. I think we run pretty closely. Although I would say that the Bible is, 00:56:43.064 --> 00:56:45.431 there's no better authority for the revelation, 00:56:45.984 --> 00:56:52.304 of the things of God in reference to at least the things in which the Bible speaks about. 00:56:52.304 --> 00:56:58.904 You're not gonna get a better revelation or truth about X, Y, or Z, 00:56:58.904 --> 00:57:05.524 if the Bible talks about it, that is the end, right? What are the problems with that? 00:57:06.929 --> 00:57:13.167 The problems with that are that we we isogeet all kinds of things, right, you know, so, 00:57:14.379 --> 00:57:20.459 Then we'll go into the bible and be like well it obviously like i'm gonna find out what the rules for dating are, 00:57:21.739 --> 00:57:23.979 In the bible. Yeah. Well, I will tell you that any. 00:57:25.819 --> 00:57:35.619 Um I'm gonna take some pot shots. Uh Mental health and counseling and self-help books are the worst for this. 00:57:35.619 --> 00:57:41.999 So I'm a fan of attachment theory, which if you're like a counseling nerd, you 00:57:41.999 --> 00:57:45.059 know what I'm talking about. But I've run across books and they're like, 00:57:45.269 --> 00:57:49.079 well let's find attachment theory in the Bible and see how Jesus is the most 00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:53.399 securely attached individual we've ever known. And really just getting to know 00:57:53.399 --> 00:57:58.539 Jesus and becoming securely attached to Jesus helps us have secure attachment 00:57:58.539 --> 00:58:00.663 in our other relationships. 00:58:01.019 --> 00:58:08.619 That is eisegesis. By eisegesis we mean bringing meaning and inserting it into the Bible 00:58:08.619 --> 00:58:11.179 rather than taking meaning out of the Bible. 00:58:11.179 --> 00:58:17.507 The Bible was not written with the intention of displaying to us what secure psychological attachment 00:58:17.619 --> 00:58:25.627 means, so if that made no sense to you, sorry, but that's one of the best examples I know of. 00:58:25.699 --> 00:58:31.499 Well, even like, so going back to like our preferred understanding based on what we talked about, 00:58:31.499 --> 00:58:38.905 like let's say that it offers us the best revelation or description on the things it chooses to talk about. 00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:44.499 Yeah. Right. And going back to the first, I think it was the first episode that we did, 00:58:44.499 --> 00:58:48.249 which handled the question, what does it mean to be biblical? 00:58:50.939 --> 00:58:58.679 And the things that came out of that conversation, I, you know, even that definition, I think it begins to, 00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:02.679 begins to It begins to get weak. 00:59:04.138 --> 00:59:08.988 Maybe in particular around Christology and the nature. 00:59:12.068 --> 00:59:16.030 Or not even Christology, but even Trinitarian theology itself. 00:59:17.208 --> 00:59:20.963 Because if we were to say, okay, Sola Scriptura, 00:59:21.768 --> 00:59:28.282 scripture offers the most clear representation of the nature and character of God. 00:59:29.508 --> 00:59:32.988 It's the highest. that alone, scripture alone. 00:59:34.629 --> 00:59:40.348 I would say, I don't know what you would say, I'll let you comment yourself, I would say incorrect. 00:59:40.348 --> 00:59:44.243 I would say that Jesus Christ, the person of Jesus Christ, 00:59:46.008 --> 00:59:51.008 offers us the most clear, decisive view of who God is. 00:59:51.008 --> 01:00:04.328 View of who God is. The fullness of God dwelled in Jesus himself. All of the Godhead was wrapped 01:00:04.328 --> 01:00:12.068 up in the nature or in the person of Jesus. Now, and not scripture. So it was like, okay, 01:00:12.068 --> 01:00:20.968 does scripture clearly demonstrate the nature and character of God or does Jesus 01:00:20.968 --> 01:00:24.488 more clearly demonstrate the nature of God. 01:00:24.488 --> 01:00:30.348 The sun is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 01:00:32.528 --> 01:00:42.128 You know, this is in Colossians. For in Christ, all the fullness of the deity 01:00:42.128 --> 01:00:44.360 lives in bodily formed. 01:00:46.314 --> 01:00:51.112 So even scripture itself describes that the most clear. 01:00:54.644 --> 01:01:01.231 Authoritative picture of who God is, is in the person of Jesus, not in the pages of scripture. 01:01:01.404 --> 01:01:07.404 So I don't know if we could make, maybe if we thought long enough about it, 01:01:07.404 --> 01:01:09.404 we might be able to make arguments 01:01:09.747 --> 01:01:19.044 for that same type of movement with other theological things with other theological things, but that's the one that came to mind. 01:01:19.044 --> 01:01:26.804 RL – So, I agree. I think the avenue through which I would probably approach and is the, 01:01:28.324 --> 01:01:37.604 biggest thing to a very strict or limited view of authority and revelation and understanding 01:01:37.604 --> 01:01:45.844 that revelation is that Sola Scriptura is kind of why we have, like, there's some ridiculous amount, 01:01:45.844 --> 01:01:51.204 like, I think there's probably two new denominations every year. Like, there's thousands 01:01:51.204 --> 01:01:57.924 of denominations, particularly in America, that are so small, they're very regional, many of them 01:01:57.924 --> 01:02:01.764 you will never heard of and you will never hear of because there's only maybe like 10 churches 01:02:01.764 --> 01:02:06.804 that belong to that particular denomination. But one of the reasons we continue to have. 01:02:07.451 --> 01:02:14.964 New denominations pop up, and a large portion of them hold a high view of Sola Scriptura, 01:02:15.085 --> 01:02:22.683 and they're saying, well, everybody else is doing it wrong because we're gonna go take the Bible 01:02:23.097 --> 01:02:29.924 and rediscover Christianity, me, and the Bible. Or just do everything that the Bible says. 01:02:29.924 --> 01:02:34.204 To do everything that the Bible says. Every other church is doing things that the Bible doesn't say. 01:02:34.204 --> 01:02:37.084 We're gonna be the church that does everything that the Bible does say. 01:02:37.084 --> 01:02:42.938 Right, so like, I made a very small offhand comment earlier when we were talking about sacraments, 01:02:43.044 --> 01:02:45.126 and I said foot washing is a sacrament. 01:02:45.324 --> 01:02:51.524 There are a few small denominations that believe that that is a third sacrament. 01:02:51.524 --> 01:02:56.564 I ran into one at one point, and they were like, we believe that communion is a sacrament, 01:02:56.564 --> 01:02:59.952 baptism as sacrament and foot washing as sacrament. 01:03:00.044 --> 01:03:06.164 Actually, if you look at the text, it has just about as much emphasis as the communion narrative does. 01:03:06.164 --> 01:03:10.404 It's the same in John chapter 13. Yeah, so they would regularly, 01:03:10.404 --> 01:03:15.248 I think instead of not just having communion once a month, they would wash each other's feet once a month. 01:03:15.364 --> 01:03:16.679 Was a regular part of their worship. 01:03:16.884 --> 01:03:20.604 Okay. So that's, I can't remember what that denomination was, 01:03:20.604 --> 01:03:23.863 but that was a core element of that church denomination. 01:03:23.964 --> 01:03:28.103 Now the rest of their things were just bland evangelical. 01:03:29.784 --> 01:03:32.757 Everything else was pretty much the same. And so the question. 01:03:33.459 --> 01:03:43.549 That philosophically we run into, and part of the problem of saying only the Bible. 01:03:45.869 --> 01:03:52.769 Is that it's what we end up meaning by that is only the Bible and my particular interpretation 01:03:52.949 --> 01:03:54.389 decisions on the Bible. 01:03:56.389 --> 01:04:05.869 Everyone puts on some glasses when they read the Bible, And it is highly dangerous to walk, say, 01:04:07.589 --> 01:04:10.620 I'm just gonna take the Bible and I'm just gonna go into the woods 01:04:10.709 --> 01:04:13.189 and I'm just gonna be there with the Holy Spirit. 01:04:13.189 --> 01:04:19.155 I'm gonna decide what the Bible means, me and the Holy Spirit and the Bible in the woods, right? 01:04:19.269 --> 01:04:26.069 That's a very, like I'm characterizing, but not too hard. But also not. 01:04:26.069 --> 01:04:29.417 The amount of people who I run into who just like, I don't need church. 01:04:29.749 --> 01:04:35.309 I've got the Bible, like it's just me, God, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and that's my church, right? 01:04:35.476 --> 01:04:41.569 And you wanna talk about how many different cults get started, it's because someone takes the Bible 01:04:41.569 --> 01:04:47.269 and disregards everybody else and then runs into the woods and reads it by themselves and then creates 01:04:47.269 --> 01:04:48.628 a new understanding of it. 01:04:50.789 --> 01:05:04.189 And so without getting overly far into the weeds, But every single one of us, if you do any level amount of Bible study, you bring something along 01:05:04.189 --> 01:05:10.429 with you that guides you in your biblical interpretation. You are not opening a passage. 01:05:11.269 --> 01:05:16.349 You and I, when we open a passage on Sunday morning, we are not opening the passage, 01:05:16.349 --> 01:05:20.424 and we are not open to being persuaded that we're not Trinitarians. 01:05:21.396 --> 01:05:28.206 Correct. Right? Like we come with an assumption that the history of church's orthodoxy, the creeds, 01:05:28.400 --> 01:05:34.206 the things the church has universally believed across ages, is a thing that we can bring along 01:05:34.206 --> 01:05:42.766 as interpretation tools, not as things to be necessarily re-judged again in our weekly sermon 01:05:42.766 --> 01:05:48.766 prep. Correct. And you out there, if you're listening, watching, you probably do the same 01:05:48.766 --> 01:05:53.246 thing, but you maybe do it through the lens of what does my favorite three preachers think about 01:05:53.246 --> 01:05:59.766 this passage? And you're using them as interpretive guides and guardrails. All of us do that in some 01:05:59.766 --> 01:06:04.846 way. And to pretend that we don't is… It's foolish. 01:06:05.210 --> 01:06:12.766 Foolish and ignorant. So that's my rant. Wow. You ranted so hard. I know. 01:06:12.766 --> 01:06:21.406 You guys are like, if anyone ever wondered what Luke unhinged looks like. That was it. 01:06:21.406 --> 01:06:31.920 That was it. Uncut. Uncut. Oh goodness. So, um, good grief. So she's got two more. 01:06:32.366 --> 01:06:39.419 Protestantism rejects truly Christian ideals even when the Bible explicitly states otherwise. 01:06:39.726 --> 01:06:42.526 Is so vague as to be meaningless in my opinion. 01:06:42.975 --> 01:06:46.108 Yep. I don't know what she means by that. Nope, me neither. 01:06:48.538 --> 01:06:56.568 Yeah, and that's where her proof texting stops, so she doesn't have anything to say there. 01:06:56.568 --> 01:07:00.968 And then her last thing is, Protestant individuals may have the best intentions and really love 01:07:00.968 --> 01:07:08.037 God, but as long as they reject the one true church, they are still buying into a heresy. 01:07:08.856 --> 01:07:15.808 Essentially, just comes back to her initial point that all Protestants are heretics. 01:07:15.808 --> 01:07:21.128 You would have to define what is the one true church. She obviously defines it as the Roman 01:07:21.128 --> 01:07:28.688 Catholic Church. And I don't think Jesus was a part of the Roman Catholic Church. 01:07:29.201 --> 01:07:35.768 No. Well, it wasn't Roman. Exactly. Exactly my point. Exactly my point. 01:07:35.768 --> 01:07:41.040 Something happened when Roman became a significant modifier to church. 01:07:41.368 --> 01:07:51.088 Church, right. And so, that's a whole history lesson. But I think that's, yeah, like if you think, 01:07:51.088 --> 01:07:56.328 if you're of the persuasion, and there are Protestant, small Protestant denominations 01:07:56.328 --> 01:08:01.501 out there that do believe that they are also the one true church. There are those out there, 01:08:02.348 --> 01:08:07.048 and they think everybody else, all the other denominations are wrong and are not Christians. 01:08:09.208 --> 01:08:14.328 That's not what we believe, right? Maybe this would take, maybe we'll just kind of end out with, 01:08:15.608 --> 01:08:21.288 since we're a little bit on our longer side as far as episodes go, maybe just end with a brief, 01:08:21.288 --> 01:08:27.005 Do you think it's worth mentioning how we do use the word Catholic? 01:08:28.283 --> 01:08:39.053 Yeah, I mean, we can. There's Roman Catholic, which is indicative of the Roman Catholic Church. 01:08:39.053 --> 01:08:45.773 The Pope. The Pope, the papacy, right? Episcopal structure, all of that. 01:08:45.773 --> 01:08:52.193 Then there is the word, little c, Catholic, which historically tends to just mean universal. 01:08:52.986 --> 01:09:01.893 Like throughout all ages, those who express faith in Jesus Christ in any denomination. 01:09:01.893 --> 01:09:11.293 Who belong to the invisible church. Invisible universal church triumphant in heaven with Jesus right now and church on this earth 01:09:11.293 --> 01:09:17.533 and church to come before us. Universal Catholic Church, which is why, especially in the Apostles 01:09:17.533 --> 01:09:25.293 Creed, probably one of the more famous of the creeds. There has historically been, I believe, 01:09:25.293 --> 01:09:32.493 the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church. And people are like, ooh, the Catholic Church, 01:09:32.493 --> 01:09:39.613 ooh, I don't believe in the Roman Catholic Church. And it's not Roman Catholic Church. 01:09:39.613 --> 01:09:46.693 It's written before the Roman Catholic Church existed. Exactly. So it's talking about the universal church, which is why you'll see some Protestant 01:09:46.693 --> 01:09:53.033 denominations, of course, change the wording in their hymn books or in their use of the Apostles' Creed. 01:09:53.033 --> 01:09:54.741 RLF – Or put an apostrophe next to it. DRH – Right. 01:09:55.033 --> 01:09:57.298 And they'll cancel out Catholic and they'll put universal because they don't want to. 01:09:57.721 --> 01:10:03.373 Give anyone the Roman Catholic heebie-jeebies by saying the word Catholic in a Protestant church. 01:10:03.373 --> 01:10:06.933 RLF – Right. Catholic has a meaning apart from the Catholic church. 01:10:06.933 --> 01:10:10.933 DRH – Right. Which is unfortunate because I think it's almost like the word Catholic has become a 01:10:10.933 --> 01:10:14.600 brand associated with the Roman Catholic church. 01:10:14.853 --> 01:10:22.273 Yeah, how we would refer to Roman Catholicism is by calling them Catholics. Right. And using that singular. 01:10:23.918 --> 01:10:32.211 Adjective in that name, and so no longer we have a... We don't talk often about this concept. And 01:10:32.211 --> 01:10:39.571 so I think that hot take, I think that can sometimes lead churches to being overly antagonistic towards 01:10:39.571 --> 01:10:47.571 one another in the Protestant realm of thinking, we've got it, you don't. We're doing it right, 01:10:48.026 --> 01:10:53.411 you're doing it wrong, which is not one of our cores here at Conduit. We want to leave 01:10:53.411 --> 01:10:58.971 even celebrate that there are lots of churches proclaiming the good news of Christ. And there 01:10:58.971 --> 01:11:02.571 are great churches and we hope you go to one. It doesn't have to be us. 01:11:02.571 --> 01:11:09.651 Dr. John SantaLucia Right, exactly. We pray for universal awakening in the body of Christ across 01:11:09.651 --> 01:11:15.451 all denominations, both Catholic and Protestant. That's even important. We even have really 01:11:15.451 --> 01:11:21.171 important questions about the difference between Roman Catholicism in South America and Roman 01:11:21.171 --> 01:11:23.931 Catholicism in the Northeast of the United States. 01:11:23.931 --> 01:11:25.971 Yep, yeah. Big difference. 01:11:26.186 --> 01:11:30.003 Yep. Big, big difference. And not as, again, we said this up front, 01:11:30.411 --> 01:11:36.551 maybe it just merits reiterating, we don't hate Catholics. I actually love them. Yeah. 01:11:37.160 --> 01:11:39.023 And I love 90% of their theology. 01:11:40.167 --> 01:11:46.251 Yep. Most of their orthopraxy. Yep. I have a number of Catholic authors who I like to read. 01:11:46.251 --> 01:11:50.186 Yep, I watch Bishop Barron on YouTube, listen to his podcast. 01:11:50.753 --> 01:11:53.811 I think he's a great thinker, great theologian of the church. 01:11:53.811 --> 01:11:57.931 But we remain staunchly not Catholic. Yeah, I remain staunchly not Catholic. 01:11:57.931 --> 01:11:58.931 I don't pray to Mary. 01:11:59.117 --> 01:12:01.061 I don't believe in transubstantiation. 01:12:01.251 --> 01:12:09.811 I don't believe that the Pope has any larger spiritual authority over me than anyone else in the church. 01:12:10.460 --> 01:12:15.611 Cool. Well, if you thought this was interesting or you've run across a similar video that 01:12:15.611 --> 01:12:20.091 you want to send us to get us going, um, you can send that to us. 01:12:20.111 --> 01:12:30.984 Um, you can text us links and you can also just text us, um, questions and topics at a phone number, 7 1 6 2 0 1 0 5 0 7. 01:12:31.771 --> 01:12:38.891 So if you text that to us, we won't necessarily respond, but we will get those and we do respond to those mailbag episodes. 01:12:38.891 --> 01:12:45.331 So, um, hope that you send that and that you enjoyed this episode. 01:12:45.379 --> 01:12:46.774 Thanks for joining us. See you next time. 01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:56.553 Music.