1 00:00:11,955 --> 00:00:18,015 Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 2 00:00:18,525 --> 00:00:20,025 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 3 00:00:20,025 --> 00:00:22,725 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 4 00:00:22,725 --> 00:00:22,785 Okay. 5 00:00:35,273 --> 00:00:37,223 welcome to Transformative Principle. 6 00:00:37,223 --> 00:00:39,893 I am very excited for our episode today. 7 00:00:40,043 --> 00:00:42,383 Oh, by the way, I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 8 00:00:42,383 --> 00:00:44,783 You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones. 9 00:00:44,813 --> 00:00:45,593 I was so excited. 10 00:00:45,593 --> 00:00:46,883 I just started getting into it. 11 00:00:47,003 --> 00:00:52,373 But this is a, another show where we're doing, uh, the partnership with Riff and. 12 00:00:52,698 --> 00:01:09,528 Talking about why reading is so important, and we have Brandon Card Hernandez, who's the president of Mrs. Wordsmith, which is an innovative children's education media company that creates award-winning books, card games, and video games to help radically improve literacy outcomes for kids. 13 00:01:10,513 --> 00:01:12,733 Brandon has done a lot of things. 14 00:01:12,763 --> 00:01:24,133 He was a principal, a teacher, a uh, senior education advisor to former New York City Mayor, bill DeBlasio, director of strategic initiatives for the New York Department. 15 00:01:24,893 --> 00:01:35,333 Department of Education and he was also on the Boston School Board, uh, in Massachusetts and the Massachusetts Council for Latino Empowerment in 2023. 16 00:01:36,113 --> 00:01:41,513 Uh, so he is got a lot to share and I'm really grateful that he's taken the time to chat with us today. 17 00:01:41,513 --> 00:01:43,523 So Brandon, welcome to Transformative. 18 00:01:43,523 --> 00:01:43,913 Principal. 19 00:01:43,918 --> 00:01:44,783 Great to have you here. 20 00:01:44,983 --> 00:01:46,158 Thank you so much for having me. 21 00:01:47,303 --> 00:01:50,183 So what's your big takeaway from our conversation today? 22 00:01:51,803 --> 00:02:04,403 So many things, but I think one thing I'm leaving holding onto is just the power of, of technology and the power of data to help us build relationships with our kids. 23 00:02:04,403 --> 00:02:14,783 Sometimes we're afraid of big tech coming into our classrooms and we should be, but if it's done well, it allows us to get even closer to the kids we serve, to know them better and to do better by them. 24 00:02:15,933 --> 00:02:16,383 Yeah. 25 00:02:16,383 --> 00:02:18,093 I, I really appreciated that. 26 00:02:18,093 --> 00:02:31,623 And one of the things that I really enjoy from our conversation is talking about the dosage and how to increase that in a way that isn't, doesn't put extra work on everybody's shoulders, uh, 27 00:02:32,028 --> 00:02:32,318 Yeah. 28 00:02:33,003 --> 00:02:37,593 including the kids, that it's enjoyable, that it's fun, and a lot of things. 29 00:02:37,863 --> 00:02:39,273 You just need time. 30 00:02:39,593 --> 00:02:42,263 And space to do it and practice. 31 00:02:42,263 --> 00:02:45,893 And if we can give that to kids, then that is really powerful. 32 00:02:45,893 --> 00:02:48,533 So, uh, thank you Brandon. 33 00:02:48,533 --> 00:02:51,383 We're gonna get to my interview with Brandon here in just a moment. 34 00:02:52,353 --> 00:03:02,133 So Brandon, where I'd like to start is talking about how you left the principal position and are now doing this cool stuff with Ms. Words. 35 00:03:03,363 --> 00:03:04,173 Wordsmith. 36 00:03:04,233 --> 00:03:17,853 Yeah, listen, I, I spent my entire career trying to drive outcomes from the inside out, and I had success like all of us are having every single day, and then a lot of moments which. 37 00:03:18,183 --> 00:03:22,173 A lot of us are having every single day where I felt like I was just like bumping my head against the wall. 38 00:03:22,263 --> 00:03:23,823 And I just got really lucky. 39 00:03:23,943 --> 00:03:31,143 I had left the principalship to go work for Mayor Bill de Blasio in New York City as his, uh. 40 00:03:31,548 --> 00:03:38,958 Education advisor really overseeing strategy around three K and pre-K and some of this, the big reforms that were happening in New York City during that time. 41 00:03:39,468 --> 00:03:42,138 Uh, and at the end of the administration it was like, what am I doing? 42 00:03:42,138 --> 00:03:42,858 Where am I going? 43 00:03:42,858 --> 00:03:44,328 What, what's sort of next? 44 00:03:44,388 --> 00:03:49,278 And I wanted to sort of leave the public sector for a bit. 45 00:03:49,318 --> 00:03:53,908 And think about solutions that I was hungry for when I was a teacher. 46 00:03:54,118 --> 00:03:57,028 And then at the same time, I'm a parent of a 7-year-old. 47 00:03:57,028 --> 00:04:09,478 So I'm thinking about both things, like what do I want as a dad who's like deeply engaged in making sure my kid, my Latino son, is like reading proficiently and on grade level and sort of. 48 00:04:09,523 --> 00:04:11,773 Driving past the expected outcomes. 49 00:04:12,163 --> 00:04:13,393 What do I want as a parent? 50 00:04:13,393 --> 00:04:20,023 And also what do I want as an educator in my classroom, helping me do good work and build close relationships with kids? 51 00:04:21,943 --> 00:04:24,853 And so, so then what? 52 00:04:25,113 --> 00:04:27,438 So when I, you know, I got really lucky. 53 00:04:27,438 --> 00:04:33,648 I met someone who was funding this really incredible company and he was like, come help me think about what to do. 54 00:04:33,648 --> 00:04:41,868 And sort of fast forward a year later, I, you know, I was appointed president of the company helping us sort of think through, I think two things. 55 00:04:42,468 --> 00:04:45,108 You know, what are the products that we want to keep building? 56 00:04:45,468 --> 00:04:47,448 What are we doing that's really successful? 57 00:04:47,478 --> 00:04:49,068 How do we measure efficacy? 58 00:04:49,398 --> 00:04:57,828 And then also, you know, how do we get this in the right hands and really drive the impact that we want to wanna achieve? 59 00:04:57,888 --> 00:05:00,528 I'm not your traditional, I. Ed tech guy, right? 60 00:05:00,528 --> 00:05:06,258 Like I'm coming from a classroom and I'm coming from a principalship and I'm coming from driving policy at a district level. 61 00:05:06,258 --> 00:05:13,848 And so, you know, I'm coming in learning a lot and surrounding myself with really smart people who know the tech in a way that I don't. 62 00:05:14,118 --> 00:05:17,028 But what I often say is I like know what the consumer wants. 63 00:05:17,478 --> 00:05:21,798 Like I know what educators are looking for, what feels like a product that's. 64 00:05:21,798 --> 00:05:23,693 Overbuilt and not useful. 65 00:05:23,693 --> 00:05:33,143 What feels like the, the type of data that I'm looking to see, but also like what sparks joy with kids and so I get to, I get this incredible. 66 00:05:33,528 --> 00:05:34,608 Opportunity, right. 67 00:05:34,608 --> 00:05:37,068 To like lead from a very different vantage point. 68 00:05:37,128 --> 00:05:39,678 And I think use, you know, everything. 69 00:05:39,678 --> 00:05:42,918 I know I always say this, everything I know I learned from teaching. 70 00:05:43,308 --> 00:05:57,648 And then all the other jobs after that have been just sort of like trying to pull all those pieces of what I learned about human behavior and interactions and kids and, and learning and, and trying to sort of bring it into a different light. 71 00:05:58,743 --> 00:06:00,123 Yeah, I, I like that. 72 00:06:00,123 --> 00:06:01,563 And I, I agree. 73 00:06:01,653 --> 00:06:07,953 We learn a lot about people and how they work and what they think and what they really care about through. 74 00:06:08,958 --> 00:06:18,378 teaching and it's, it's, It's like a superpower that, you know, a lot of people don't realize really is a superpower, but it, it definitely is. 75 00:06:18,648 --> 00:06:28,878 So, I wanna talk about, you, you brought up the piece of efficacy and what you're doing is you're basically creating games at. 76 00:06:29,313 --> 00:06:39,243 Uh, Mrs. Wordsmith, I know you do, uh, books also, but really the card games and the video games are probably the things that are, that are most appealing. 77 00:06:39,693 --> 00:06:43,503 How do you measure the efficacy? 78 00:06:43,713 --> 00:06:49,833 And let me set the question up a little bit because so many times we think we need to have a preor. 79 00:06:51,033 --> 00:06:54,933 Or a post assessment to know how well people are doing. 80 00:06:55,203 --> 00:06:57,183 We have to have data, we have to track it. 81 00:06:57,543 --> 00:07:05,703 Um, and is that actually necessary or is playing a game enough that you can see that it is working? 82 00:07:05,883 --> 00:07:07,893 How, how do you measure that efficacy? 83 00:07:08,088 --> 00:07:09,648 It's a good, it's a really good question. 84 00:07:09,678 --> 00:07:17,778 I think a few things, I think sort of four steps back, we have to sort of remember the context that we're in. 85 00:07:17,778 --> 00:07:22,698 And I know most of your listeners are like educators, you know, through and through. 86 00:07:22,698 --> 00:07:24,828 And so like they know this, they're living this reality every day. 87 00:07:24,828 --> 00:07:30,978 But like we are living in a world where, you know, 67% of fourth graders are not reading proficiently. 88 00:07:30,978 --> 00:07:34,218 69% of eighth graders are not reading proficiency. 89 00:07:34,638 --> 00:07:35,148 Um. 90 00:07:35,643 --> 00:07:39,933 Half of black and Latino students are reading below grade level by fourth grade. 91 00:07:40,563 --> 00:07:46,833 We live in a, the sort of greater context, 40 million Americans are functionally illiterate. 92 00:07:46,863 --> 00:07:54,303 I like the word sub literate 'cause I think it more accurately describes where people are, but they're unable to read above a fifth grade level. 93 00:07:54,723 --> 00:07:56,343 And then you go even one step further, right? 94 00:07:56,343 --> 00:07:56,553 Like. 95 00:07:56,728 --> 00:08:01,678 70% of all incarcerated adults can't read at a fourth grade level. 96 00:08:02,008 --> 00:08:09,718 And so what we know is that there has been limited exposure to the building blocks of foundational reading skills. 97 00:08:09,718 --> 00:08:13,828 And you know, the sort of phrase of the moment is the science of reading. 98 00:08:13,828 --> 00:08:23,608 But these are like the basic building blocks of what we know is true to teach reading, you know, phonemic awareness, phonics fluency, vocabulary, all of that leading to reading comprehension. 99 00:08:24,723 --> 00:08:32,278 What I think is really special about games is that games are not going to replace all of those steps, nor are they gonna. 100 00:08:32,898 --> 00:08:38,028 Replace the adults in the room who's gonna work shoulder to shoulder with a kid to teach those skills. 101 00:08:38,568 --> 00:08:46,158 But what I do believe is that we've missed the appropriate amount of dosage that an individual kid needs to build. 102 00:08:46,158 --> 00:08:53,148 What I think are the two most important pieces of that puzzle, the sort of phonemic awareness and phonics part of that, that learning to read journey. 103 00:08:53,208 --> 00:08:55,938 And then obviously the vocabulary expansion part. 104 00:08:55,938 --> 00:08:59,348 Like just knowing more words so that you are a more fluent reader. 105 00:08:59,588 --> 00:09:02,018 And I think that is just time on task. 106 00:09:02,168 --> 00:09:07,268 And what we see is the differentiating factor between those who are skilled readers and those who are not. 107 00:09:07,448 --> 00:09:09,188 It's just how much time they get practicing. 108 00:09:09,338 --> 00:09:16,478 And so like what I find fascinating about video games, and this is also me as like a former high school principal, is like kids are playing them. 109 00:09:17,018 --> 00:09:21,578 And if you build good ones that are gamified and fun, they will play them. 110 00:09:22,383 --> 00:09:25,563 And then they will build skills and I think like it. 111 00:09:25,563 --> 00:09:30,963 So it's not about looking for something that's going to like somehow be the magic thing that solves all of our problems. 112 00:09:31,023 --> 00:09:34,953 Great teaching will continue to be the thing that solves our problem. 113 00:09:35,253 --> 00:09:39,693 In addition to the right amount of dosage based on what a kid needs, just practice. 114 00:09:40,478 --> 00:09:40,928 Yeah. 115 00:09:40,988 --> 00:09:45,248 And, and I think that is a really appropriate and healthy take. 116 00:09:45,428 --> 00:09:59,768 Um, because sometimes, uh, people say, you know, we need to do X, Y, or Z, and that's gonna solve our problem and. 117 00:10:00,168 --> 00:10:02,808 Like, we can do that better than teachers can. 118 00:10:02,928 --> 00:10:07,458 Or there's a lot of AI companies out right now that are like, we wanna replace teachers. 119 00:10:07,758 --> 00:10:17,988 Like, I don't know why, for example, Sal Khan gets so much press, because the whole point of Khan Academy and what he's doing is that we don't need teachers. 120 00:10:17,988 --> 00:10:26,178 And yet, teachers are, are, he's speaking to all these national conferences about this stuff and, and his whole goal is to like eliminate teachers. 121 00:10:26,178 --> 00:10:28,158 No, that's, that shouldn't be the point. 122 00:10:28,158 --> 00:10:29,448 The real point is. 123 00:10:30,228 --> 00:10:36,858 do we make sure that kids have the time doing the things that they need to do to be successful? 124 00:10:37,128 --> 00:10:38,418 Uh, go ahead. 125 00:10:38,478 --> 00:10:40,638 No, I, I wanna add on that too. 126 00:10:41,058 --> 00:10:57,738 It's how do we make sure kids have the time doing the thing that is gonna allow them to be successful and how do we make sure teachers have the information around a kid's progress so that they're able to tailor teaching in the right ways and not overwhelming them with data That's really different. 127 00:10:57,738 --> 00:11:00,288 'cause then there's just like data overload and you're like, I dunno what to do with all of this. 128 00:11:00,528 --> 00:11:06,498 But like, giving them like the right pieces of data so that they can like quickly turnkey it into something useful and. 129 00:11:07,263 --> 00:11:34,563 Even more important, I think more important than all of this is if those two things are happening, you are creating space for kids to form really healthy attachments with adults and that there is no computer or video game or AI that can take over the powerful thing that happens when a kid is known well, when they feel close to an adult in their lives and when they build a relationship with someone, they learn. 130 00:11:34,803 --> 00:11:35,883 I mean, the, the. 131 00:11:36,288 --> 00:11:46,128 The social emotional skills that are happening there are just, it's so deep, but it attaches more than just me to adult or me to kid. 132 00:11:46,398 --> 00:11:51,528 It also like creates a relationship with their, with that young person's relationship to learning. 133 00:11:52,038 --> 00:11:58,638 And so like you start building these really positive experiences as a vulnerable person, consuming new information. 134 00:11:58,983 --> 00:12:02,643 And that happens in parallel with a teacher who's made it feel really safe and good. 135 00:12:02,913 --> 00:12:03,963 You make that happen. 136 00:12:04,113 --> 00:12:05,583 You really build lifelong learners. 137 00:12:05,583 --> 00:12:19,083 You build young people who are willing to take risks, who are willing to be vulnerable, who are willing to fail and succeed, but that requires a lot of the right tools for a teacher to feel successful so that they can show up. 138 00:12:19,233 --> 00:12:25,143 Really focused for that really hard part of the job, which is knowing kids well and building those meaningful relationships. 139 00:12:25,923 --> 00:12:26,213 Yeah. 140 00:12:26,398 --> 00:12:27,448 Yeah, absolutely. 141 00:12:27,448 --> 00:12:33,748 So, so let's talk a little bit about how, how do you get those teachers. 142 00:12:34,158 --> 00:12:37,098 The data that they need, or do you not even worry about that? 143 00:12:37,353 --> 00:12:40,143 We do at the right time, and so on. 144 00:12:40,143 --> 00:12:49,593 One of our games, word tag, which I love, this is like our video game for kids who are a little bit over sort of think seven to 12 with a very clear focus on. 145 00:12:49,658 --> 00:12:50,528 Vocabulary. 146 00:12:50,888 --> 00:12:53,018 So it's like a vocabulary acquisition game. 147 00:12:53,288 --> 00:12:58,028 It's just about we use the science of space, repetition, sort of high level view. 148 00:12:59,103 --> 00:13:12,603 Show a word with a set number of exposures, and you show that word in its context, in its form with synonyms, with antonyms, different sort of word, uh, activities that allow you to make meaning of a word. 149 00:13:12,783 --> 00:13:24,153 And the goal of that is to, to increase vocabulary and word tag we did in efficacy study and the vocabulary scores, uh, increased, I don't know, 43% with the, within the first month of playing. 150 00:13:24,393 --> 00:13:26,253 Because what started to happen is one. 151 00:13:27,003 --> 00:13:29,103 Kids will play video games for 25 minutes. 152 00:13:29,283 --> 00:13:31,083 They'll see that word over and over again. 153 00:13:31,203 --> 00:13:37,233 That space repetition starts to build the, the knowledge that they need for that word to become part of their lexicon. 154 00:13:37,563 --> 00:13:42,093 And so therefore, it does, and what we do on the backend for teachers is a really simple dashboard. 155 00:13:42,093 --> 00:13:42,993 So like, I'm a teacher. 156 00:13:42,993 --> 00:13:46,983 Let's say I'm reading, um, I don't know, I'm looking at my bookshelf here. 157 00:13:47,133 --> 00:13:49,563 Let's say I'm reading Bridge to Terebithia. 158 00:13:49,863 --> 00:13:55,848 There's a. Set of words from bridge to Terabithia that I know are us, like usually create a struggle for kids. 159 00:13:56,118 --> 00:14:03,198 We've identified those words that our system will feed the kids those words over a three week period. 160 00:14:03,378 --> 00:14:04,188 They'll learn those words. 161 00:14:04,188 --> 00:14:08,028 You can either decide to do it, I'm gonna do this as a pre-reading, I'll do it in parallel with the reading. 162 00:14:08,028 --> 00:14:08,778 It doesn't really matter. 163 00:14:08,988 --> 00:14:14,658 'cause at I'm a teacher, like at my core, I, I just want you to know these words and to be able to use them in your everyday life. 164 00:14:15,348 --> 00:14:18,018 But what I'll get on the backend through a dashboard from it. 165 00:14:18,053 --> 00:14:20,333 Teacher is, did I complete the assignment? 166 00:14:20,543 --> 00:14:20,813 Right? 167 00:14:20,813 --> 00:14:24,413 If it's 20 minutes of gameplay a day, that's the homework assignment. 168 00:14:24,593 --> 00:14:25,433 Did you do it? 169 00:14:25,523 --> 00:14:27,233 That's something I just wanna know as a teacher. 170 00:14:27,233 --> 00:14:28,643 Can I say, you did it or you did it right? 171 00:14:28,643 --> 00:14:31,493 Like that's gonna impact the sort of relational experience in the classroom. 172 00:14:32,033 --> 00:14:39,268 Two, are there words that despite the space repetition, your continuing to struggle once exposed to. 173 00:14:39,783 --> 00:14:41,763 And so those become sort of flagged for you. 174 00:14:41,853 --> 00:14:45,843 And then what words have you learned based on the assessment of the game? 175 00:14:45,843 --> 00:14:48,543 Which words have you seen six to eight times and you've gotten right. 176 00:14:49,218 --> 00:14:51,468 And now been able to sort of move and show mastery. 177 00:14:51,588 --> 00:15:02,598 And so then let's high level what I need to know as a teacher, I get to then like celebrate the words you have learned, use them, make them just feel like fun and part of the sort of classroom environment. 178 00:15:02,958 --> 00:15:04,068 I know which ones you haven't. 179 00:15:04,068 --> 00:15:07,038 So like I'm thinking of another way to create exposure in the classroom. 180 00:15:07,278 --> 00:15:12,048 So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna use that word again, or I'm gonna just like really sort of think about ways to keep introducing it. 181 00:15:12,048 --> 00:15:16,098 There's a challenge here and then I just get to know if you did the homework, you did the assignment or not. 182 00:15:16,648 --> 00:15:28,408 You use that type of really simple data to drive focus in the relationship, then again, it allows the teacher not to be like sifting through a bunch of stuff they don't need. 183 00:15:28,408 --> 00:15:30,748 And then on our other game, ridiculous. 184 00:15:31,288 --> 00:15:33,778 Which is our phonics sort of early reading game. 185 00:15:33,778 --> 00:15:34,048 Right? 186 00:15:34,048 --> 00:15:34,828 Like moving through. 187 00:15:35,308 --> 00:15:35,488 Yeah. 188 00:15:35,568 --> 00:15:37,638 is the best name ever, by the 189 00:15:37,873 --> 00:15:38,303 Thank you. 190 00:15:38,788 --> 00:15:39,868 We love that name. 191 00:15:40,668 --> 00:15:42,138 Yeah, it's so good. 192 00:15:42,348 --> 00:15:42,828 I love It 193 00:15:42,963 --> 00:15:43,983 It is such a good name. 194 00:15:43,983 --> 00:15:44,913 Ridiculous. 195 00:15:44,973 --> 00:15:47,223 And it's like a little, it's a ridiculous adventure. 196 00:15:47,223 --> 00:15:48,063 They have a good time. 197 00:15:48,063 --> 00:15:48,963 Our characters on it. 198 00:15:49,293 --> 00:15:51,048 and and spelled read I, 199 00:15:51,513 --> 00:15:52,408 Yeah, that's. 200 00:15:52,638 --> 00:15:59,298 I just think, it's great and especially since we're teaching kids to read and then we're spelling a word wrong. 201 00:15:59,358 --> 00:16:08,208 I love it when we do that 'cause it shows the beauty and the flexibility of language that I think is powerful for kids to be able to understand. 202 00:16:08,598 --> 00:16:12,438 And so, you know, somebody may come after you about that, but I think it's 203 00:16:12,738 --> 00:16:13,818 No, they love it. 204 00:16:13,818 --> 00:16:14,538 And you know what's funny? 205 00:16:14,538 --> 00:16:23,238 The, I remember this moment with my own son who I mentioned at the top is, is seven the moment he realized this play on words, you know? 206 00:16:23,598 --> 00:16:27,468 And like, I don't know, we all have those moments if you think about yourself as a young person, right? 207 00:16:27,468 --> 00:16:27,708 Like. 208 00:16:27,968 --> 00:16:31,268 Where you just like started to realize sort of the joy of words. 209 00:16:31,268 --> 00:16:37,958 You sort of like started to master a, a phrasing or you found a funny rhyme or, and it's just, it's amazing. 210 00:16:37,958 --> 00:16:39,038 That's the beauty of reading, right? 211 00:16:39,068 --> 00:16:43,448 'cause there's so much creative potential in being able to consume. 212 00:16:44,118 --> 00:16:48,228 Words and then play with them and have your own relationship to language. 213 00:16:48,678 --> 00:16:50,418 There's like a liberation in it, obviously. 214 00:16:50,418 --> 00:16:56,988 It's why we know s you know, health outcomes and all of the things for folks who are, are fluent readers. 215 00:16:57,378 --> 00:16:59,508 Um, but also just the joy of it. 216 00:17:00,138 --> 00:17:00,498 Yeah. 217 00:17:00,858 --> 00:17:20,628 It's joyful and I, so two experiences that were really Transformative for me was reading, uh, I don't remember the book, but I remember understanding how the author used words and phrases in different ways that made me say, oh, I see what you did there. 218 00:17:20,628 --> 00:17:24,228 And, and that was like, okay, I really get this. 219 00:17:24,228 --> 00:17:25,608 That was sometime in high school. 220 00:17:25,608 --> 00:17:29,208 I don't remember exactly what book, but I remember sitting in class saying. 221 00:17:29,808 --> 00:17:43,848 This is funny because of how they phrased it, not because it's inherently funny, but it wouldn't have been as funny if they would've said it differently and it's, it made me laugh out loud while reading silently and, and like, I was like, okay. 222 00:17:43,848 --> 00:17:45,405 That was the, the moment. 223 00:17:46,432 --> 00:17:54,712 The second piece was, was when I was living in Russian and learning to speak Russian and I started making word jokes in. 224 00:17:54,977 --> 00:17:55,487 Russian. 225 00:17:55,937 --> 00:17:58,127 And then I was like, okay, I get it 226 00:17:58,132 --> 00:17:58,787 I get this. 227 00:17:59,327 --> 00:17:59,627 I totally get it. 228 00:17:59,627 --> 00:18:07,397 And, and that is like this powerful moment where you can do that, uh, in, in whatever language you speak. 229 00:18:07,397 --> 00:18:08,987 It's really, really cool. 230 00:18:08,987 --> 00:18:10,997 So, uh, I do love that joy. 231 00:18:11,087 --> 00:18:12,407 So it's powerful. 232 00:18:12,547 --> 00:18:12,937 love it. 233 00:18:12,937 --> 00:18:17,257 And how many kids are sitting in our classrooms feeling like they don't have that command. 234 00:18:17,917 --> 00:18:18,247 Right. 235 00:18:18,487 --> 00:18:37,147 And I remember that even as a, a high school principal, I would have young folks come in, there'd be some sort of altercation, and I try to get them to the place of like explaining what happened, what were you feeling, what was going on, and witnessing that, the barrier to repair in those moments. 236 00:18:37,747 --> 00:18:42,367 It wasn't like a des, it wasn't a lack of desire to like heal and move forward. 237 00:18:42,757 --> 00:18:45,907 Oftentimes it was like, I literally a lack of. 238 00:18:47,062 --> 00:18:51,562 Uh, sort of linguistic prowess to be able to communicate the thing that happened. 239 00:18:51,562 --> 00:18:55,222 So the feelings became actually sort of quieted. 240 00:18:55,222 --> 00:18:57,862 It was like I was angry, I was mad, I was sad. 241 00:18:58,102 --> 00:19:14,392 And it was like, actually there was so much more that was happening for you, but because we, the system has failed in ensuring that you had a really expansive vocabulary to communicate what you were feeling and what you were needing, and it is actually interrupting your ability. 242 00:19:14,412 --> 00:19:18,072 To repair relationships, like all of that is real. 243 00:19:18,072 --> 00:19:25,872 So yes, there's like the joyful moments of like, I'm like, I have command of of words and I can, I am like finding humor in every day. 244 00:19:26,052 --> 00:19:35,112 And then also like these really real moments of like, I'm looking to build more meaningful relationships and I don't have the words. 245 00:19:35,572 --> 00:19:40,072 That allow that to go as deep as it deserves to go, and that's the fail. 246 00:19:40,072 --> 00:19:40,912 That's our failure. 247 00:19:40,942 --> 00:19:44,482 That's, to me is also like the real, real social emotional learning happens in rigor. 248 00:19:45,322 --> 00:19:45,742 Yeah. 249 00:19:45,802 --> 00:19:46,312 totally. 250 00:19:46,312 --> 00:19:55,702 And, and so that, idea that you just brought up, especially with a young kid of not knowing how to say that I was embarrassed because somebody made fun of me. 251 00:19:56,062 --> 00:20:02,782 Really, like once they understand what that word means and why that is, that is then upsetting to 252 00:20:03,097 --> 00:20:03,387 Yeah. 253 00:20:03,442 --> 00:20:05,482 Like, I don't know why I was crying. 254 00:20:05,602 --> 00:20:09,532 Like what he said somebody said has said that to me before. 255 00:20:09,877 --> 00:20:12,967 But the way he said it, the place he said it. 256 00:20:13,987 --> 00:20:19,447 me embarrassed and then I felt shame in front of everybody and, and that's different. 257 00:20:19,447 --> 00:20:30,877 And like I've seen kids be able to articulate that and how once they have the vocabulary or the experience to say something, then it's empowering to them to say. 258 00:20:30,992 --> 00:20:35,222 Oh, now I understand why that happened and I can move on from this. 259 00:20:35,492 --> 00:20:41,012 Whereas if they can't articulate It they somehow can't move past the, the interaction as well. 260 00:20:41,012 --> 00:20:45,032 So I love that idea of, of, uh, social emotional happens in the rigor. 261 00:20:45,032 --> 00:20:46,532 I think that's, that's powerful. 262 00:20:46,657 --> 00:20:52,507 really is, and I, I've said this to someone recently where I'm like, I think happiness makes more sense. 263 00:20:52,507 --> 00:20:54,547 And I'm using like a really simple emotion, right? 264 00:20:54,547 --> 00:20:55,117 Or simple. 265 00:20:55,177 --> 00:20:57,457 It's so complex, but I'm using happiness. 266 00:20:57,457 --> 00:21:00,787 A word that, uh, you know, babies know, right? 267 00:21:01,687 --> 00:21:06,337 But it makes more sense when you have word associations with it, right? 268 00:21:06,337 --> 00:21:14,827 Where you're like, you understand joyful and you understand unapologetic and you understand excited and you, right? 269 00:21:14,827 --> 00:21:22,742 Like when we start having this sort of robust vocabulary around feelings, it makes the feeling we are experiencing. 270 00:21:23,647 --> 00:21:26,317 Have a situational context that's very different. 271 00:21:26,317 --> 00:21:33,967 And we, if we don't do explicit vocabulary, which is what I love about word tag, if you don't do explicit vocabulary, we will lose that. 272 00:21:33,967 --> 00:21:38,227 And it's why we have the word gap that we know exists across economic lines. 273 00:21:38,227 --> 00:21:43,147 I. And it's about word exposure, but we can back to our early conversation. 274 00:21:43,327 --> 00:21:53,707 It's what I love about tech, it's what excites me about the, the opportunities in our business at Mrs. Wordsmith is like we are just driving dosage. 275 00:21:53,767 --> 00:22:05,857 We're just creating an opportunity for more exposure and we can do it in a really gamified way that does both things that like honors the principles of the science of reading and real smart pedagogy. 276 00:22:06,712 --> 00:22:12,832 Doesn't try to interrupt the relationship that a student is having with a teacher, but instead builds off of it. 277 00:22:12,832 --> 00:22:22,072 And actually, I hope, my goal always is that like our tools allow for greater connection because they interrupt some of the other stuff that doesn't need to, to take shape. 278 00:22:22,222 --> 00:22:26,692 And, and that, that, that data becomes sort of really viable, you know? 279 00:22:27,597 --> 00:22:27,887 Yeah. 280 00:22:28,232 --> 00:22:30,752 Now you started to say something about ridiculous. 281 00:22:30,982 --> 00:22:31,222 Oh. 282 00:22:31,232 --> 00:22:31,442 Uh. 283 00:22:32,782 --> 00:22:38,092 We could do this all day for, I was gonna say for you, just about ridiculous for classrooms and at home. 284 00:22:38,092 --> 00:22:38,332 Right? 285 00:22:38,332 --> 00:22:40,402 So this is our early reading game. 286 00:22:40,582 --> 00:22:45,232 So this sort of beginning from letter identification to phonemes to sight words. 287 00:22:45,592 --> 00:22:47,482 And these are, as we know this. 288 00:22:47,542 --> 00:22:53,482 And I, but I'll say this, just maybe for the high school principal who's listening, not some of this stuff, right? 289 00:22:53,692 --> 00:22:57,622 When we think about reading, fourth grade is always this moment we talk about, right? 290 00:22:57,622 --> 00:23:00,472 Because prior to fourth grade, we are learning to read. 291 00:23:00,532 --> 00:23:05,272 We just need like the foundational skills to become a good reader after fourth grade. 292 00:23:05,297 --> 00:23:06,407 We're reading to learn, right? 293 00:23:06,407 --> 00:23:10,637 It's when the content gets more complex, you have to have all those foundational reading skills. 294 00:23:10,637 --> 00:23:17,627 No one's teaching you how to read anymore and now you're reading so that you understand the content that you're being exposed to, and that doesn't really happen before fourth grade. 295 00:23:17,627 --> 00:23:18,107 Fourth grade. 296 00:23:18,137 --> 00:23:21,947 There's new content coming at you, but it's really, these are like foundational skill building times. 297 00:23:22,667 --> 00:23:31,517 What we know often happens is if you don't get to that fourth grade reading level with these foundational skills, it becomes really hard to catch up because. 298 00:23:31,837 --> 00:23:34,717 As again, high school principal here, high former high school teacher. 299 00:23:35,077 --> 00:23:35,857 By the time you're. 300 00:23:35,857 --> 00:23:41,947 Uh, by the time you're moving through middle school and high school, no one's stopping to do phonemic awareness. 301 00:23:42,397 --> 00:23:46,087 We're like, we're talking about Mesopotamia, like we've moved on to the Cold War, right? 302 00:23:46,087 --> 00:23:50,887 Like, that just doesn't exist in the, the system design, unfortunately. 303 00:23:51,277 --> 00:23:54,247 And so it just gets harder to catch up and then those kids fall far behind. 304 00:23:54,247 --> 00:24:04,057 So what I wanted to do, and what we've wanted to do is build a video game that really focuses on those early skills, but still feels really gamified, still feels really fun and. 305 00:24:04,382 --> 00:24:05,612 It's like also really mindful. 306 00:24:05,612 --> 00:24:13,682 This is me like, uh, you know, as a dad, that like, I don't want my kids sitting in front of a screen for a really long period of time when they're four and they're five and they're six. 307 00:24:13,922 --> 00:24:18,842 So like, how do I do the thing I I care a lot about, which is like increase dosage and exposure. 308 00:24:18,842 --> 00:24:21,452 I. While also limiting screen time exposure. 309 00:24:21,452 --> 00:24:24,662 So this game ridiculous, is about 10 to 12 minutes of gameplay. 310 00:24:24,932 --> 00:24:31,682 So it's really sort of like you can do all the practicum at home, but it's like 10 to 12 minutes of gameplay moves through. 311 00:24:31,982 --> 00:24:34,232 You know, all the things we know about those early reading skills. 312 00:24:34,262 --> 00:24:44,852 44 phone names, all the way those phone names break down through all the letter identification, 200 sight words, and then just like gives a young person a chance to play with that. 313 00:24:44,857 --> 00:24:46,057 Practice those sounds. 314 00:24:46,057 --> 00:24:51,967 We use speech recognition so a young person can do speech to text and that's an assessment for us. 315 00:24:52,027 --> 00:24:57,187 And then on the back end to our earlier conversation, like what does a parent and then a teacher need to know? 316 00:24:57,757 --> 00:24:59,197 'cause then it gets really easy, right? 317 00:25:00,037 --> 00:25:03,937 I didn't have this as an educator, but we get to break down for you. 318 00:25:03,967 --> 00:25:07,957 Here are these 44 phone names that we know are the foundations to reading. 319 00:25:07,957 --> 00:25:11,677 Here are 200 sight words that we also know are foundations to reading. 320 00:25:12,187 --> 00:25:22,147 And I can tell you if a student is struggling or showing mastery in that, and that is just critically important for you because then you get to know. 321 00:25:22,687 --> 00:25:23,497 Where to focus. 322 00:25:23,497 --> 00:25:29,647 So like as a teacher, I am noticing, I don't know, I have eight kids who are struggling with sh the sh sound. 323 00:25:29,857 --> 00:25:33,337 I can get really smart and like group those kids together in a really smart way, right? 324 00:25:33,697 --> 00:25:37,027 So it's not like, it doesn't mean I've never taught sh before. 325 00:25:37,057 --> 00:25:40,567 That moment doesn't mean there's no other exposure. 326 00:25:40,567 --> 00:25:41,947 This is not like a replacement. 327 00:25:41,947 --> 00:25:50,677 It's just another dosage and a low stakes assessment that gives you more information and then allows you to make instructional decisions that feel really good. 328 00:25:51,172 --> 00:25:53,212 And then as a parent, the same thing, right? 329 00:25:53,212 --> 00:26:07,492 Like most of us as parents, unless you're like, you know, a reading specialist with kids like you no longer remember the phone names, you are trying to like sound things out with your child and you feel like a total failure 'cause you're like this now, God willing, right? 330 00:26:07,492 --> 00:26:08,722 Like comes naturally to me. 331 00:26:08,722 --> 00:26:11,152 I'm a fluent reader and like chunking these. 332 00:26:11,542 --> 00:26:16,672 These words up into small parts of speech, like feel really impossible. 333 00:26:16,912 --> 00:26:24,382 And so we help also break that down because then there's, you know, on the parent report, you can see the sound of that phone name, you can practice it again. 334 00:26:24,382 --> 00:26:30,052 There's like a little bit of that in there too, where it's like, your kid's struggling with this, here's the actual sound of that phone name. 335 00:26:30,082 --> 00:26:32,632 Here's examples of words that that lives in. 336 00:26:32,782 --> 00:26:36,472 And then you get to also feel like, okay, now I know what to do with this information at home. 337 00:26:36,472 --> 00:26:39,352 I don't feel, um, I don't feel the same barrier. 338 00:26:40,262 --> 00:26:40,652 Yeah. 339 00:26:40,682 --> 00:26:42,572 Which it, it is really easy. 340 00:26:42,722 --> 00:26:53,162 I mean, I was not a reading specialist, but I was a middle school and high school language arts teacher and I did not, I. I didn't have any training on reading. 341 00:26:53,162 --> 00:26:59,372 The last time I thought about how to sound out a word was when my teacher made me do it in like second grade. 342 00:26:59,522 --> 00:27:00,392 You know, like 343 00:27:00,512 --> 00:27:00,802 Yeah. 344 00:27:01,262 --> 00:27:03,032 I haven't, I don't go back to that. 345 00:27:03,032 --> 00:27:11,222 And so it was really challenging for me as a teacher with kids who didn't know how to read to help them, because I didn't know. 346 00:27:11,642 --> 00:27:13,502 I didn't know what I didn't know at that point. 347 00:27:13,582 --> 00:27:14,872 And question for you. 348 00:27:14,932 --> 00:27:16,612 Were you ever a struggling reader? 349 00:27:17,132 --> 00:27:17,672 No. 350 00:27:17,842 --> 00:27:18,862 Like it came easy for you. 351 00:27:18,892 --> 00:27:19,855 You were like, I was good. 352 00:27:19,860 --> 00:27:20,422 I stayed on track. 353 00:27:20,452 --> 00:27:20,782 Yeah. 354 00:27:21,652 --> 00:27:21,952 Yeah. 355 00:27:22,007 --> 00:27:22,497 It's this. 356 00:27:22,522 --> 00:27:24,472 like, no problems at all. 357 00:27:24,472 --> 00:27:33,082 So I, I, I also can't emotionally relate to them because, well, I could, because I learned Russian and boy was I, it was it difficult to 358 00:27:33,182 --> 00:27:33,472 Yeah. 359 00:27:33,472 --> 00:27:38,152 language, but in English it was like, no, like we'd talk every day. 360 00:27:38,152 --> 00:27:39,502 Of course we know how to read too, 361 00:27:39,547 --> 00:27:39,967 Yeah. 362 00:27:40,102 --> 00:27:41,002 that's not the case. 363 00:27:41,137 --> 00:27:59,407 I was a special education teacher and one of the best gifts I had in that work besides getting to work with just like awesome smart kids every day was that I became Wilson certified, which is like, I. Basic early phonics, remedial work for older young people. 364 00:27:59,797 --> 00:28:05,557 And in that journey I also had to relearn how to read. 365 00:28:05,767 --> 00:28:06,607 I'm really lucky. 366 00:28:06,607 --> 00:28:10,942 I'm also a young person where reading I. Came natural for me. 367 00:28:10,972 --> 00:28:17,062 I grew up in a home with sub literate parents and, uh, saw sub literacy just around me. 368 00:28:17,062 --> 00:28:23,122 Like, you know, I went to schools that were tough and grew up in an environment that was under invested in and under resourced. 369 00:28:23,422 --> 00:28:26,662 So like the idea of sub literacy wasn't new to me. 370 00:28:27,392 --> 00:28:43,262 The idea of struggling as a reader wasn't new to me, but like the science of how you deal with it was, and so like I was able to have that experience as a teacher and then went into my principalship with this different lens, right? 371 00:28:43,262 --> 00:28:45,962 Because, you know, I was a principal in the South Bronx. 372 00:28:46,142 --> 00:28:49,772 Many of my kids came in, most of my kids actually came in. 373 00:28:49,772 --> 00:28:52,562 This is not hyperbole, reading below grade level. 374 00:28:52,832 --> 00:28:55,832 And so like I have this awareness, I've said this often, like. 375 00:28:56,572 --> 00:29:04,672 I don't care what level a principal is at, like there is, we have failed LE school leaders. 376 00:29:05,182 --> 00:29:07,312 Given that what we talked about earlier, right? 377 00:29:07,312 --> 00:29:15,142 Where 67% of fourth graders are not reading proficiently and 69% of eighth graders are not reading proficiently like we are failing school leaders. 378 00:29:15,142 --> 00:29:33,832 If we're not giving them the training on the, the sort of fundamentals of the science of reading, but also ED technologies and approaches that will help them do all the things they're charged with, doing like grade level standards and keeping kids on track while also finding ways to increase the dosage. 379 00:29:34,022 --> 00:29:40,407 So that there is new opportunities for exposure to some of the, the foundational skills that unfortunately were missed earlier. 380 00:29:41,307 --> 00:29:41,637 Yeah. 381 00:29:41,847 --> 00:29:42,932 Yeah, that makes sense. 382 00:29:43,952 --> 00:29:53,367 uh, in closing, my last question is what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a Transformative leader like you? 383 00:29:54,842 --> 00:29:55,082 Oh, ooh. 384 00:29:55,837 --> 00:30:00,757 What's one thing that they can do this week to be a Transformative leader? 385 00:30:01,147 --> 00:30:06,637 I think this I'm, this is a longer answer than you want, but you're just gonna have to deal. 386 00:30:07,147 --> 00:30:12,007 I think this, I think, and it doesn't have to be a Mrs. Wordsmith product, though. 387 00:30:12,007 --> 00:30:13,417 I would love it if it was. 388 00:30:13,882 --> 00:30:14,182 Yeah. 389 00:30:14,377 --> 00:30:18,097 We have to, we are older than the young people. 390 00:30:18,097 --> 00:30:18,787 We surf 391 00:30:19,492 --> 00:30:20,062 Mm-Hmm. 392 00:30:20,437 --> 00:30:25,627 we have to be okay that their experience is going to look different than ours. 393 00:30:25,687 --> 00:30:34,597 And that that doesn't make the experience we had bad, it just means they're growing up in a different time, in a different context with different ways to have relationships and engage with learning. 394 00:30:34,867 --> 00:30:36,307 And like we have to be okay with that. 395 00:30:36,307 --> 00:30:40,687 So the thing that I actually encourage any leader to do is like, take a beat. 396 00:30:41,122 --> 00:30:48,712 Pause and play a video game, see the world that they're in, and try to see, don't dog it. 397 00:30:49,102 --> 00:30:52,132 Try to see the value of what young people are getting from it today. 398 00:30:52,312 --> 00:30:56,752 Is there a relationship happening in it or is there interdependence at play? 399 00:30:56,752 --> 00:31:01,522 Is there independence at play is like what is happening in the game. 400 00:31:01,582 --> 00:31:08,212 And it can be an education game or it can be a non-education game, but like great leaders will dive into the work. 401 00:31:08,557 --> 00:31:10,387 And the community that they're in. 402 00:31:10,477 --> 00:31:14,947 And I think sometimes we forget that that includes consuming the media they consume. 403 00:31:15,337 --> 00:31:16,987 I think you will just know a little more. 404 00:31:17,922 --> 00:31:18,312 Hmm. 405 00:31:18,552 --> 00:31:20,052 I, I think that's beautiful. 406 00:31:20,322 --> 00:31:30,552 So play a video game and analyze it with the wisdom of experience and age and see, see what the kids are really getting out of it. 407 00:31:30,552 --> 00:31:32,442 I think that's a very cool answer 408 00:31:32,452 --> 00:31:40,042 And don't, do not look at it from the deficit lens of like, this is so different than the pristine experience I had. 409 00:31:40,972 --> 00:31:45,382 Full curiosity, what is it that is captivating hearts and minds today? 410 00:31:45,382 --> 00:31:46,552 What is this new media? 411 00:31:46,582 --> 00:31:47,797 That wasn't part of my experience. 412 00:31:49,207 --> 00:31:50,317 yeah, yeah. 413 00:31:50,377 --> 00:31:53,437 And you know, I, I did that when Fortnite came 414 00:31:53,627 --> 00:31:53,917 Yeah. 415 00:31:54,667 --> 00:31:56,887 I still to this day. 416 00:31:57,187 --> 00:31:58,657 Do not like playing Fortnite. 417 00:31:58,687 --> 00:32:06,277 It's not my jam, but I totally get why kids enjoy it and why they're all about it, and it, makes sense. 418 00:32:06,307 --> 00:32:10,057 Roblox, Minecraft, all those things, like they all, it all makes 419 00:32:10,312 --> 00:32:11,152 It all makes sense. 420 00:32:11,152 --> 00:32:16,792 We've just built a, a Roblox game called Words of Power, which I love and, and actually full. 421 00:32:16,792 --> 00:32:20,572 It's all about social emotional learning vocabulary, but it's the same. 422 00:32:20,572 --> 00:32:27,352 It's like we were playing Roblox and seeing this in action and being like, there's so much here to captivate. 423 00:32:27,442 --> 00:32:28,522 Let's captivate there. 424 00:32:29,242 --> 00:32:30,652 So yeah, play in their worlds. 425 00:32:31,462 --> 00:32:32,482 Yeah, for sure. 426 00:32:32,662 --> 00:32:33,022 Okay. 427 00:32:33,322 --> 00:32:39,082 Well, uh, how do You want people to get in touch with you or, uh, Mrs. Wordsmith, uh, the company? 428 00:32:39,247 --> 00:32:48,277 You can always visit us@mrswordsmith.com, learn a little bit more about what we're up to, but also our research on the science of reading and game-based learning. 429 00:32:48,427 --> 00:32:51,727 And then of course, anyone is always welcome to reach out to me. 430 00:32:51,727 --> 00:32:54,067 I'm brandon@mrswordsmith.com. 431 00:32:55,247 --> 00:32:55,627 Cool. 432 00:32:55,687 --> 00:32:56,017 Thank you. 433 00:32:56,017 --> 00:32:58,837 so much for being part of Transformative principle today. 434 00:32:58,837 --> 00:32:59,122 This has been a great 435 00:33:00,067 --> 00:33:00,577 Thank you.