WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:49.340 Welcome back to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:49.380 --> 00:00:51.320 I've got Ellie Williams with me. 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:53.190 I've known Ellie for a while. 00:00:53.740 --> 00:01:00.960 She runs a pretty Rad gig out in Pennsylvania on the Pennsylvania, 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.750 Maryland bordered borders, but she's actually a Brit. 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:06.990 Who's a long term resident resident in the USA. 00:01:06.990 --> 00:01:11.280 So you're going to hear a bit of a hybrid accent here, but she does very, very, 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:17.295 very interesting work in trauma in you know, equine assisted psychotherapy 00:01:17.315 --> 00:01:18.795 of various kinds and in neurofeedback. 00:01:19.275 --> 00:01:25.675 And these are areas which aren't necessarily known so well within 00:01:25.685 --> 00:01:27.045 the equine assisted world. 00:01:27.505 --> 00:01:31.625 And for that reason, I wanted Ellie to come on and educate us a little bit about 00:01:31.625 --> 00:01:34.775 them particularly in the work with trauma, particularly in the work with attachment 00:01:34.775 --> 00:01:36.085 disorders and that sort of thing. 00:01:36.485 --> 00:01:37.615 There's a lot we can learn. 00:01:37.885 --> 00:01:40.985 It goes, as we all know, a lot further than just. 00:01:41.310 --> 00:01:42.340 giving kids pony rides. 00:01:42.850 --> 00:01:45.200 But we've all been at that point where people say, well, you're 00:01:45.250 --> 00:01:46.310 just giving kids pony rides. 00:01:46.720 --> 00:01:51.010 So I'm gonna turn it over to you, Ellie. 00:01:52.170 --> 00:01:55.260 Can you please tell us what you do? 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:56.550 Who are you and what are you doing? 00:01:56.550 --> 00:01:57.270 Why do you do it? 00:01:58.550 --> 00:02:00.630 Ellie Williams: Well, hopefully we've got a bit of a few 00:02:00.630 --> 00:02:02.070 minutes to answer that question. 00:02:02.390 --> 00:02:06.440 So Ellie Williams, executive director of equity and support services. 00:02:06.700 --> 00:02:10.760 I work in Dallas down Pennsylvania and also in Hunt Valley, Maryland. 00:02:11.430 --> 00:02:16.590 And I have been doing this work started with the equine assistive work back 00:02:16.590 --> 00:02:22.280 in 2006 going on 18 years of just the journey of where the need is. 00:02:22.420 --> 00:02:25.850 We work a lot with children and youth in the foster care system, 00:02:26.140 --> 00:02:28.000 adoptive clientele as well. 00:02:28.470 --> 00:02:30.930 Lots of trauma, lots of abuse and neglect. 00:02:31.485 --> 00:02:36.465 In my journey, I started with the Agala model and quite assisted work. 00:02:36.985 --> 00:02:40.755 And then I found you, which is amazing because I then work with 00:02:40.755 --> 00:02:44.105 our autistic clients within the Horsepoint model and method. 00:02:44.285 --> 00:02:46.265 And it's a great hybrid. 00:02:46.265 --> 00:02:50.865 I still have some great clients and we had the wonderful Temple Grandin at our 00:02:50.865 --> 00:02:56.825 farm many years back and learned a lot from you and her in that area as well. 00:02:57.305 --> 00:03:03.065 And Through my journey, I've been doing a lot with trauma and attachment issues. 00:03:03.725 --> 00:03:07.105 Children in the foster care system have gone through a lot and they, 00:03:07.645 --> 00:03:11.225 they just need, they don't understand how to have healthy attachments. 00:03:11.255 --> 00:03:14.325 So I decided to go and become trained. 00:03:14.745 --> 00:03:17.515 Our local attachment therapist in the area just left. 00:03:17.755 --> 00:03:19.185 So I was like, well, better me. 00:03:19.185 --> 00:03:20.205 I'll, I'll go do it. 00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:22.030 and fell in love with the work. 00:03:22.450 --> 00:03:26.090 I connected with dyadic developmental psychotherapy. 00:03:26.150 --> 00:03:26.500 Dr. 00:03:26.500 --> 00:03:30.560 Daniel Hughes is the creator and he actually lived about an hour, just over 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:34.350 an hour from me, was able to study under him for about two and a half years. 00:03:35.250 --> 00:03:39.900 And currently on their board of directors as their treasurer, I think by force, 00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:41.600 just because I was the Northeast U. 00:03:41.600 --> 00:03:41.840 S. 00:03:41.890 --> 00:03:44.910 that I became treasurer, but amazing group of people. 00:03:45.460 --> 00:03:48.370 And doing the work with, as you said, attachment and trauma 00:03:48.610 --> 00:03:49.820 the developmental trauma stuff. 00:03:50.450 --> 00:03:55.060 And one of the other wonderful aspects of the work that we do is we provide 00:03:55.060 --> 00:04:00.000 neuro, neurofeedback services using the neuro optimal neurofeedback system. 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:04.230 And I do that when, when I have an office session, I will hook a client up 00:04:04.340 --> 00:04:07.800 and have a office therapy session with a cat or a dog, because there's always 00:04:07.850 --> 00:04:10.150 animals around in in the work that we do. 00:04:10.790 --> 00:04:12.930 And that's, I call it my magic machine. 00:04:12.990 --> 00:04:17.060 It balances the brain and it helps clients open up and go to a deeper 00:04:17.060 --> 00:04:18.330 level when we're having therapy. 00:04:18.400 --> 00:04:22.540 So, lots of things that we're doing in just our small organization in the 00:04:22.540 --> 00:04:24.660 Northeast Pennsylvania, Maryland area. 00:04:25.490 --> 00:04:27.620 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, you're a Brit, you're a horsey Brit. 00:04:27.810 --> 00:04:30.290 We also connected you and I through the Hunt World. 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:33.220 What got you a horsey Brit? 00:04:33.545 --> 00:04:35.565 Over to Pennsylvania. 00:04:35.575 --> 00:04:41.765 Why does a horsey Brit fall in love with attachment disorders and trauma? 00:04:42.125 --> 00:04:42.905 What's the story? 00:04:43.615 --> 00:04:46.215 Ellie Williams: So I think I think you just follow. 00:04:47.015 --> 00:04:47.415 I don't know. 00:04:47.505 --> 00:04:49.145 It's probably a long winding road. 00:04:49.145 --> 00:04:49.635 Really? 00:04:49.805 --> 00:04:52.775 We moved to the US because my dad's job brought us here. 00:04:53.265 --> 00:04:56.675 And you know, there were a lot of things that happened in my life that 00:04:57.285 --> 00:04:59.075 led me to work for children's services. 00:04:59.555 --> 00:05:01.220 I worked there for about 10 years. 00:05:01.630 --> 00:05:06.830 And there just wasn't great services, you know, there was sort of the traditional 00:05:06.840 --> 00:05:10.560 therapies and it was sort of before, I mean, there was some play therapy 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:14.520 and I'm not saying they're not great, they are but I wanted something that 00:05:14.520 --> 00:05:19.080 I fell in love with and my love of horses and my love of helping people was 00:05:19.080 --> 00:05:21.140 just, oh, it was just the perfect fit. 00:05:23.180 --> 00:05:26.140 Rupert Isaacson: Trauma, though, and attachment disorders it's a rather 00:05:26.150 --> 00:05:31.100 specialist road because, you know, one's dealing with really intense 00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:33.870 and heightened emotional situations. 00:05:34.340 --> 00:05:36.030 It's not everybody's cup of tea. 00:05:36.615 --> 00:05:40.365 There can be conflict, there can be manipulation, one can feel, you 00:05:40.365 --> 00:05:42.125 know, manipulated by clients even. 00:05:42.125 --> 00:05:43.535 It's, it's, it's, it's complex. 00:05:43.815 --> 00:05:44.055 Ellie Williams: Yes. 00:05:44.135 --> 00:05:46.555 Rupert Isaacson: Anyone who works in the sort of psychotherapy field 00:05:47.225 --> 00:05:49.135 acknowledges that it's it's tricky. 00:05:49.985 --> 00:05:54.045 What was it about that that made you think, yes, actually, 00:05:54.045 --> 00:05:55.275 this is my professional home? 00:05:57.635 --> 00:06:01.461 Ellie Williams: I think, I think when you work with horses, I always, 00:06:01.461 --> 00:06:03.480 I've always worked with young horses. 00:06:03.480 --> 00:06:08.190 I love training young horses and figuring them out and doing a lot of. 00:06:08.940 --> 00:06:13.170 You know, putting the time in and helping them get to know what they need 00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:17.260 to be, you know, what they need to do and jumping and dressage and flat work. 00:06:17.260 --> 00:06:19.330 And, and it's the same with people. 00:06:19.330 --> 00:06:24.790 I just, I find that I have this curiosity and I want to help them live in a 00:06:24.790 --> 00:06:30.540 world without anger and violence and no power struggles and need for control. 00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:33.440 And it's the parallel is just beautiful. 00:06:33.440 --> 00:06:36.490 I mean, horses as a third animal, that's. 00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:40.300 That's what we help them, you know, when we interact with them, it's very 00:06:40.330 --> 00:06:44.080 similar than the kids that, that I work with as well and families as well. 00:06:45.260 --> 00:06:48.830 Rupert Isaacson: So I think a lot of us see that parallel between working 00:06:48.840 --> 00:06:52.470 particularly with young horses and also a lot of us who work with donated 00:06:52.470 --> 00:06:55.640 horses, you know, we get the horses with all the stories that they have 00:06:55.890 --> 00:07:00.650 in their bodies and in their minds and the rehab is very much part of this. 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:03.140 I think a lot of people can relate. 00:07:03.880 --> 00:07:05.650 However, not everybody. 00:07:06.220 --> 00:07:12.790 Understands the terminology and the world of attachment, talk us through it. 00:07:12.930 --> 00:07:15.180 What is an attachment disorder? 00:07:16.730 --> 00:07:22.390 Ellie Williams: So basically between the age of one and three as a human being, 00:07:22.390 --> 00:07:27.500 we need to have a healthy attachment or build a healthy attachment to our 00:07:27.500 --> 00:07:29.340 caregiver, whoever that might be. 00:07:29.340 --> 00:07:32.490 And most of the time it's mom and dad, or it's just mom or it's just 00:07:32.490 --> 00:07:36.730 dad, or sometimes it's granny, you know, whoever that caregiver is. 00:07:37.255 --> 00:07:42.575 And when you live in a chaotic, violent drug and alcohol, lots of things that 00:07:42.575 --> 00:07:49.415 are unhealthy, you're learning not, well, there's just unhealthy connections. 00:07:49.505 --> 00:07:52.705 You're not able to have a healthy attachment. 00:07:53.135 --> 00:07:56.045 So when you have an unhealthy attachment, it's now disorganized. 00:07:57.055 --> 00:08:03.210 And You don't know, you know, it's kind of like when you have the child say, 00:08:03.210 --> 00:08:05.150 look, mommy, I've made this for you. 00:08:05.150 --> 00:08:08.000 And they go, Oh yes, I'm so proud. 00:08:08.290 --> 00:08:09.240 That's amazing. 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:11.880 And you have this just nurture and this pride. 00:08:13.385 --> 00:08:16.315 that I have so many children that don't know what that is. 00:08:16.935 --> 00:08:20.685 You know, they, they know the, Hey, mommy, I did this for you. 00:08:21.005 --> 00:08:22.395 And it's like, get out of here. 00:08:22.745 --> 00:08:23.625 You're worthless. 00:08:23.895 --> 00:08:25.845 You know, so they don't have that connection. 00:08:25.845 --> 00:08:27.105 They don't feel connected. 00:08:27.355 --> 00:08:29.525 And then, then they don't know how to connect. 00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:33.900 And that's where the unhealthy attachment and disorganized attachment comes in. 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:37.020 Rupert Isaacson: What are the usual negative outcomes of that? 00:08:37.060 --> 00:08:38.430 What do we see? 00:08:38.430 --> 00:08:40.780 Why do we need to be paying attention to this? 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.440 Ellie Williams: So as kids get older, they're going to have 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:47.390 difficulty in their peer relations. 00:08:47.920 --> 00:08:50.180 They're going to struggle socially. 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:54.180 They're going to try and control everything. 00:08:54.620 --> 00:08:56.180 They'll power struggle. 00:08:56.590 --> 00:08:57.840 Oh, that just. 00:08:58.510 --> 00:09:02.760 You know, they know how to power struggle, they know how to push buttons, 00:09:03.150 --> 00:09:08.020 they know how to make you angry, and, because that's what they've learned, 00:09:08.060 --> 00:09:13.790 they've learned through whether it's a volatile, violent environment, that they 00:09:13.790 --> 00:09:16.330 are now, that's, that works for them. 00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:22.660 They don't know what calm and nurture and loving is, they just know the chaos. 00:09:23.655 --> 00:09:26.215 Rupert Isaacson: And what, why did they find that that works for them? 00:09:26.235 --> 00:09:29.165 What, what, when they, when they start mirroring those 00:09:29.185 --> 00:09:30.405 behaviors, what do they get? 00:09:31.225 --> 00:09:32.075 Ellie Williams: They get attention. 00:09:32.415 --> 00:09:32.705 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:09:32.705 --> 00:09:32.985 They get 00:09:33.485 --> 00:09:34.815 Ellie Williams: attention that they never had. 00:09:35.435 --> 00:09:36.875 And they go, Oh, that's kind of nice. 00:09:36.875 --> 00:09:40.705 I like that attention, even though it's, you need to sit down or you're 00:09:40.745 --> 00:09:42.085 going to the principal's office. 00:09:42.685 --> 00:09:47.465 It fills a void that they had, they never experienced. 00:09:47.465 --> 00:09:51.765 And then our job is to then help them learn how to fill that void 00:09:51.805 --> 00:09:54.035 differently, which is really difficult. 00:09:54.935 --> 00:09:56.775 Rupert Isaacson: And does it become, would you say, dopamine 00:09:56.775 --> 00:10:02.375 related, so then it becomes like a seek and find behavior, right? 00:10:02.615 --> 00:10:04.125 Ellie Williams: Yeah, absolutely. 00:10:04.715 --> 00:10:05.775 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, interesting. 00:10:06.305 --> 00:10:13.245 So if somebody has an attachment disorder what are the steps to ameliorate? 00:10:14.625 --> 00:10:15.720 Ellie Williams: It's a long journey. 00:10:16.190 --> 00:10:20.100 It's a really long journey and I, I really enjoy working with 00:10:20.130 --> 00:10:22.100 kiddos as young as possible. 00:10:22.910 --> 00:10:28.400 You know, if I have teenagers that have had such a dysregulated life throughout 00:10:28.400 --> 00:10:33.620 their, you know, you know, until they're teenagers, it's the ingrained 00:10:33.690 --> 00:10:37.610 behavior is it's so it's solidified. 00:10:37.610 --> 00:10:42.170 It's really hard for them to sort of go back and relearn some healthier behaviors. 00:10:42.745 --> 00:10:46.945 But it really, I love working with kids when they're 4, 3, 4, 5 years 00:10:46.945 --> 00:10:52.635 old, because it's about helping them understand what they do now, and 00:10:52.635 --> 00:10:57.945 relating it back to their developmental trauma, and being able to then help 00:10:57.945 --> 00:11:01.520 them, and like, educate them through psychoeducation of what they need to do. 00:11:02.300 --> 00:11:04.290 Wow, I see that you do this. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.670 I've noticed that this happens when, when somebody da, da, da, da. 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.140 Oh, I wonder if that's when, kind of like when you were little and, 00:11:12.150 --> 00:11:16.460 and mummy and daddy ignored you, you know, and, and how that can connect. 00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:17.190 Yeah. 00:11:17.560 --> 00:11:23.495 And it's, Then, being able to help them restructure themselves and 00:11:24.505 --> 00:11:31.185 where we, through the DDP did on into psychotherapy, we have a model 00:11:31.185 --> 00:11:37.065 called PACE, which is being playful, accepting, furious, and empathic. 00:11:37.365 --> 00:11:42.715 And if you are peaceful, and whether it's as a clinician, myself, a parent, 00:11:42.715 --> 00:11:48.995 a caregiver, a school personnel, if you can implement those four things into a 00:11:49.005 --> 00:11:54.965 child's life or a client's life, it helps them understand, because sometimes, so 00:11:54.965 --> 00:12:01.765 if, if if one individual, say I have a client that's really angry, if I'm being 00:12:01.895 --> 00:12:07.565 silly and playful, sometimes they're then not angry, sometimes doing a silly walk. 00:12:08.550 --> 00:12:11.820 Because they don't wanna go back to the car and they power start struggling and 00:12:11.820 --> 00:12:13.800 they, they don't want the session to end. 00:12:14.150 --> 00:12:19.220 Doing a silly walk to go back to the car is just works it, it snaps them 00:12:19.220 --> 00:12:23.380 outta the of that power struggle. 00:12:23.530 --> 00:12:26.560 And I'm gonna be accepting of where they are all the time. 00:12:26.565 --> 00:12:30.420 I'm gonna accept that they're in this need for, I don't want to leave. 00:12:30.420 --> 00:12:31.170 I feel safe. 00:12:31.170 --> 00:12:32.370 I'm having a good time. 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.300 And then I'm gonna be curious 'cause I wanna know more about that. 00:12:36.950 --> 00:12:39.170 But I'm going to have empathy because they're in that place. 00:12:39.380 --> 00:12:40.100 Does that make sense? 00:12:40.230 --> 00:12:40.670 Rupert Isaacson: It does. 00:12:40.990 --> 00:12:45.510 Do you ever find this can happen I'm a great believer in humor. 00:12:46.060 --> 00:12:46.450 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:49.660 Rupert Isaacson: And I also know that humor can sometimes with someone 00:12:49.660 --> 00:12:55.710 who's power struggly, be taken as a way to have yet more power struggle. 00:12:56.060 --> 00:13:03.580 When you're humorous and playful and then a kid or a client takes that and reacts 00:13:03.580 --> 00:13:05.590 even more negatively, what do you do? 00:13:07.110 --> 00:13:09.700 Ellie Williams: I just, you just think on your feet, you know, you're 00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:12.870 like, well, okay, that, that didn't work that, that sort of amplified. 00:13:13.290 --> 00:13:14.310 I might step away. 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:15.460 I might create some space. 00:13:15.460 --> 00:13:18.268 The great thing about working with the animals, they sort 00:13:18.268 --> 00:13:19.952 of meet them where they are. 00:13:19.952 --> 00:13:22.759 So if I have a kid that's power struggling and. 00:13:23.499 --> 00:13:27.059 They're trying to get the horse from back into the stables and the horse is wanting 00:13:27.169 --> 00:13:30.499 to eat the grass and now the horse is the power struggle because they're trying to 00:13:30.499 --> 00:13:35.474 get the horse So then I might be like, man, have they been talking to you? 00:13:36.074 --> 00:13:38.414 That was the kind of like what we were doing just a minute ago. 00:13:38.744 --> 00:13:42.254 We were power struggling and now look, you're power struggling with that one. 00:13:42.294 --> 00:13:44.574 So it just kind of lightening it up. 00:13:45.134 --> 00:13:48.414 And if you're smiling and you're happy, you can't be angry. 00:13:49.214 --> 00:13:55.324 So, you know, being able to shift the focus is so important. 00:13:55.554 --> 00:13:56.544 So, so important. 00:13:57.234 --> 00:13:59.674 Rupert Isaacson: When you've got these kids that are coming to you 00:13:59.824 --> 00:14:02.254 so young, who's bringing them? 00:14:04.134 --> 00:14:07.284 Ellie Williams: Most of the time, foster parents, parents, caregivers, 00:14:08.269 --> 00:14:09.939 Sometimes I'll have drivers. 00:14:10.239 --> 00:14:14.439 Sometimes I don't have the parental caregiver. 00:14:15.009 --> 00:14:16.279 I really do. 00:14:17.289 --> 00:14:20.809 I mean, I asked for it, you know, if I can have it across because 00:14:20.809 --> 00:14:23.379 that way I can check in with them at the beginning of session. 00:14:23.719 --> 00:14:25.139 They can be in session. 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:28.779 I know that's something that you always talked about having them 00:14:28.779 --> 00:14:30.369 in session as much as possible. 00:14:30.829 --> 00:14:34.199 And if not, just being able to have that contact, what's going 00:14:34.199 --> 00:14:35.489 well, where are the struggles. 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:37.619 That sort of thing. 00:14:38.949 --> 00:14:41.129 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's okay. 00:14:41.129 --> 00:14:42.559 So foster, the foster system. 00:14:43.089 --> 00:14:43.389 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:14:43.739 --> 00:14:48.559 Rupert Isaacson: We know that equine assisted therapies are not cheap. 00:14:49.179 --> 00:14:50.499 Anything with a horse is not cheap. 00:14:51.889 --> 00:14:54.149 How are they affording to come to you? 00:14:55.549 --> 00:14:59.669 Ellie Williams: So I do, I have contracts with our local agencies, our government 00:14:59.729 --> 00:15:05.079 agencies, which took a long time to Not only get the contract, it took us 00:15:05.079 --> 00:15:09.369 a few years to get the contract, but it took us probably another eight years to 00:15:09.369 --> 00:15:13.999 get paid to the point where we needed to get paid, if you see what I mean. 00:15:14.089 --> 00:15:14.279 Yeah. 00:15:14.539 --> 00:15:18.209 But also then having to do a lot of fundraising and grant writing and 00:15:18.829 --> 00:15:22.259 requests of, you know, connecting with people in our community that would 00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:24.559 support us to cover the difference. 00:15:26.179 --> 00:15:30.089 The other aspect, we do private pay, we have a sliding scale. 00:15:30.589 --> 00:15:32.879 We don't like to turn anyone away if we don't have to. 00:15:32.979 --> 00:15:35.729 So we try really hard to get them the funding they need. 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:38.969 Rupert Isaacson: And so you, you bootstrapped it originally. 00:15:38.969 --> 00:15:43.049 You, you looked around for support in your community. 00:15:43.069 --> 00:15:44.309 You created a non profit. 00:15:44.429 --> 00:15:46.439 You went about it that way. 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:50.174 When you, when you made the shift to becoming a non profit, 00:15:50.434 --> 00:15:53.274 a funded provider from the state. 00:15:54.414 --> 00:15:57.584 Can you, there's a lot of people who will be listening to this, will be thinking, 00:15:57.864 --> 00:15:59.324 you know, I'm at the start of my career. 00:15:59.374 --> 00:16:02.804 I, I don't quite know how one goes about that stuff. 00:16:02.904 --> 00:16:05.614 In a nutshell, what's the red tape process for that? 00:16:06.454 --> 00:16:10.999 Ellie Williams: I think it's, it's networking, finding, finding people within 00:16:10.999 --> 00:16:14.734 your community, different organizations, whether it's rotary, whether it's. 00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:20.649 You know, young, young entrepreneur group, you know, talk to 00:16:20.649 --> 00:16:22.309 as many people as possible. 00:16:22.579 --> 00:16:26.269 And I, I say so often, I don't know everything. 00:16:26.299 --> 00:16:29.499 And if I don't know something that I need to know, I'm going to find somebody 00:16:29.499 --> 00:16:35.099 that does, you know, and it's, it's so important that face to face and the 00:16:35.149 --> 00:16:37.319 handshake and the conversation again. 00:16:37.694 --> 00:16:40.864 And being to go, you know, that was, I was lucky because I 00:16:40.864 --> 00:16:43.234 actually worked in that system. 00:16:43.354 --> 00:16:45.244 So I had a lot of contacts already. 00:16:45.254 --> 00:16:46.334 Rupert Isaacson: You were already a therapist. 00:16:47.084 --> 00:16:49.234 Ellie Williams: So I wasn't a therapist at that point. 00:16:49.234 --> 00:16:52.244 I worked in the child welfare system as a, as a worker. 00:16:52.694 --> 00:16:55.764 I was actually one of the managers in our local office. 00:16:55.844 --> 00:16:59.194 So I knew people that I needed to talk to. 00:16:59.484 --> 00:17:01.084 I already had that step ahead. 00:17:01.444 --> 00:17:05.114 But if you're going out there and you're going, Oh, I want to work within 00:17:05.114 --> 00:17:08.464 whether it's the mental health or it's drug and alcohol or it's child 00:17:08.464 --> 00:17:14.054 welfare, go bang on the doors, go set an appointment, give them a call, 00:17:14.054 --> 00:17:16.504 walk on in, because it's important. 00:17:16.564 --> 00:17:18.904 Like I'm, this is what I'd like to provide. 00:17:19.074 --> 00:17:21.634 How can I go about getting, you know, getting on your. 00:17:22.644 --> 00:17:24.254 On your docket, so to speak, absolutely. 00:17:25.004 --> 00:17:25.864 Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's funny. 00:17:25.914 --> 00:17:29.364 I'm a great believer that people say no three times usually. 00:17:29.674 --> 00:17:31.884 And then the fourth time they tend to say yes, just to shut 00:17:31.904 --> 00:17:33.504 you up and make you go away. 00:17:33.864 --> 00:17:36.834 And I'm always surprised that people fall at those fences. 00:17:36.834 --> 00:17:39.394 It's like, dude, they're going to say no at first. 00:17:39.404 --> 00:17:40.794 That's their job in a way. 00:17:41.864 --> 00:17:43.244 To see if you're serious about it. 00:17:43.464 --> 00:17:48.194 And did you find that, that you had to go back 2, 3, 4 times? 00:17:48.674 --> 00:17:51.594 Ellie Williams: Yeah, I think the biggest, the biggest thing is, is 00:17:51.594 --> 00:17:53.604 asking them what their needs are. 00:17:53.784 --> 00:17:55.364 You know, this is what I have. 00:17:55.364 --> 00:17:57.404 Does it fall within the need that you have? 00:17:57.914 --> 00:18:03.649 Our biggest thing is we were, We didn't have the outcomes that they needed, like, 00:18:03.659 --> 00:18:08.199 they're like, well, we like the sound of what you're doing, but does it work? 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:12.609 Is it, you know, will it produce the outcomes that we want? 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:15.429 So we worked for about two and a half years. 00:18:17.439 --> 00:18:21.809 To get those numbers and to get those statistics to go back in and say, we're 00:18:21.949 --> 00:18:26.939 maintaining over an 85 percent success rate of clients completing treatment. 00:18:27.109 --> 00:18:29.299 Rupert Isaacson: Now, how did you prove that when without 00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:30.539 like a peer reviewed study? 00:18:30.819 --> 00:18:32.909 Because people could say, well, that's just anecdotal. 00:18:32.949 --> 00:18:34.109 You know, why should we believe you? 00:18:34.714 --> 00:18:37.154 Ellie Williams: So basically, we just do, I mean, you're right. 00:18:37.154 --> 00:18:42.854 It's not like an in depth study but we use outcome measures that are valid through 00:18:42.904 --> 00:18:44.724 the, you know, we have different ones. 00:18:44.974 --> 00:18:48.194 We use the youth outcome questionnaire and we use the child questionnaire, 00:18:48.195 --> 00:18:49.128 Rupert Isaacson: youth 00:18:49.128 --> 00:18:50.994 Ellie Williams: outcome questionnaire. 00:18:50.994 --> 00:18:52.554 Rupert Isaacson: And it's something people should be aware of. 00:18:52.555 --> 00:18:53.194 Ellie Williams: Yep. 00:18:53.274 --> 00:18:54.944 And it's a pretest and a post test. 00:18:55.254 --> 00:18:59.524 So it basically gives you a snapshot of how the client feels they're doing 00:18:59.604 --> 00:19:01.894 before treatment and after treatment. 00:19:02.449 --> 00:19:07.449 And then we have a child and adolescent functional assessment scale, also 00:19:07.449 --> 00:19:11.389 known as a campus, and that's an outcome measure that I complete 00:19:11.439 --> 00:19:13.189 and I completed every 3 months. 00:19:13.859 --> 00:19:18.589 To be able to sort of see how the progress is, is coming along. 00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:20.999 Rupert Isaacson: And are these things that people can effectively 00:19:20.999 --> 00:19:22.039 download off the internet? 00:19:22.989 --> 00:19:25.299 Ellie Williams: The outcome questionnaire is, is something that 00:19:25.299 --> 00:19:29.609 it's a small fee for, to be able to use that outcome method the tool. 00:19:30.029 --> 00:19:33.069 With the CAPAS, it was a more in depth process. 00:19:33.069 --> 00:19:39.079 I had to study it pass a test, knowing that I know how to, to utilize the model. 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:39.859 It's more in depth. 00:19:40.429 --> 00:19:44.399 They have a, an annual fee, which isn't, isn't huge. 00:19:44.709 --> 00:19:46.299 But it's a very good measure. 00:19:46.659 --> 00:19:47.319 Very good measure. 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:48.349 Rupert Isaacson: Who controls that? 00:19:48.349 --> 00:19:49.699 What's the governing body for that? 00:19:50.399 --> 00:19:52.889 Ellie Williams: Well, off the top of my head, I can't remember, but 00:19:52.889 --> 00:19:56.829 there's, they have a few different outcome measures that they, this one 00:19:56.949 --> 00:19:58.949 governing body has, and I can't remember. 00:19:59.449 --> 00:20:03.279 I have like the JIF and the CAFAS and a couple of others as well. 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:03.389 But 00:20:03.419 --> 00:20:07.074 Rupert Isaacson: these are, these are recognised by Local health authorities. 00:20:07.194 --> 00:20:07.654 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:20:07.724 --> 00:20:07.984 Yeah. 00:20:08.874 --> 00:20:09.114 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:20:09.184 --> 00:20:11.654 This is good to know because this is the sort of thing I didn't know 00:20:12.084 --> 00:20:14.874 when I was starting out, you know, I was just bloke in a field with my 00:20:14.874 --> 00:20:16.794 kid, you know, wondering what to do. 00:20:17.564 --> 00:20:22.504 And this, I still don't know, you know, so I'm always, I'm always intrigued to know 00:20:22.514 --> 00:20:27.099 what are the, If you like official steps that people can take and should take. 00:20:27.409 --> 00:20:29.209 Ellie Williams: Well, and it's nice. 00:20:29.699 --> 00:20:30.109 I'm sorry. 00:20:30.109 --> 00:20:30.429 Go ahead. 00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:31.109 Rupert Isaacson: No, you go ahead. 00:20:31.729 --> 00:20:35.039 Ellie Williams: It's nice because I'm working in the child welfare system. 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:37.379 Often I will be subpoenaed for court. 00:20:37.569 --> 00:20:38.729 There's obviously. 00:20:39.129 --> 00:20:41.859 Different things that I have to be careful about, but we're 00:20:42.029 --> 00:20:43.869 working with lawyers and judges. 00:20:44.609 --> 00:20:50.029 You have to have that specific information and being able to have outcome measures. 00:20:50.684 --> 00:20:54.434 It can be very helpful, you know, when you're up there to support a 00:20:54.434 --> 00:20:55.524 client that you're in court for. 00:20:56.884 --> 00:21:03.134 Rupert Isaacson: Do you provide trainings, advice, mentorship for people 00:21:03.134 --> 00:21:04.464 that are wanting to start off in this? 00:21:04.654 --> 00:21:07.224 Because it's, it's, it's, you know, it's interesting. 00:21:07.224 --> 00:21:09.764 You're very clear about how to navigate this. 00:21:10.124 --> 00:21:13.774 And I'm very used to hearing people be actually much less clear and more wooly. 00:21:14.334 --> 00:21:15.634 So I think this is valuable information. 00:21:15.644 --> 00:21:17.814 Do you, do you do that sort of service for people that want to 00:21:17.824 --> 00:21:19.254 get going in this profession? 00:21:19.434 --> 00:21:19.824 Ellie Williams: I have. 00:21:19.854 --> 00:21:20.344 Yes. 00:21:20.444 --> 00:21:23.234 It's one of those things when I started, we again, went to all the 00:21:23.234 --> 00:21:25.154 people that you could learn from. 00:21:25.424 --> 00:21:27.194 I do charge a fee. 00:21:27.564 --> 00:21:32.894 But it's something that I'm always willing to, to help somebody get further in this 00:21:32.914 --> 00:21:34.924 field because we all need to be doing it. 00:21:35.414 --> 00:21:36.964 It's, it's amazing work. 00:21:37.024 --> 00:21:37.354 So. 00:21:38.494 --> 00:21:38.764 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 00:21:38.764 --> 00:21:40.734 So people can contact you. 00:21:41.144 --> 00:21:41.494 Correct. 00:21:41.904 --> 00:21:42.144 Okay. 00:21:42.144 --> 00:21:45.924 So at the end listeners, we're going to obviously have contact for Ellie. 00:21:46.304 --> 00:21:49.784 So if you've got these questions and you want to engage her services to help her 00:21:49.785 --> 00:21:53.464 light the way through Fangorn Forest. 00:21:53.789 --> 00:21:58.039 and Mirkwood and the Mists and the Mines of Moria she will 00:21:58.039 --> 00:21:58.889 help you with the Balrogs. 00:22:01.064 --> 00:22:04.684 Alright, I've got some questions about some of the methodologies you use 00:22:04.724 --> 00:22:07.174 because they're quite intriguing to me. 00:22:07.174 --> 00:22:11.534 You use the Igala model and that one I'm familiar with and Lynn has been on this 00:22:12.414 --> 00:22:14.324 podcast and we're all great fans of Lynn. 00:22:14.944 --> 00:22:18.074 Both of the Igala and the Horses for Mental Health stuff 00:22:18.074 --> 00:22:20.174 she's doing now and so on. 00:22:20.244 --> 00:22:24.994 I'd like to ask you pick your brain a little bit about a couple of the other. 00:22:25.034 --> 00:22:25.054 Yeah. 00:22:25.489 --> 00:22:28.029 things and I'm going to look at your website as I'm doing so I get the 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:31.549 names right because these things one can often get the names wrong. 00:22:32.369 --> 00:22:32.769 So 00:22:34.909 --> 00:22:38.559 our transformative DDP services is 00:22:40.619 --> 00:22:42.359 something that you orient people towards. 00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:42.999 What is a DDP? 00:22:44.534 --> 00:22:44.824 So 00:22:45.394 --> 00:22:47.814 Ellie Williams: that's what I was talking about a little bit earlier with 00:22:47.814 --> 00:22:49.884 the dyadic developmental psychotherapy 00:22:50.184 --> 00:22:51.174 Rupert Isaacson: dyadic. 00:22:51.374 --> 00:22:55.094 Yeah, that's a word you don't hear every day when I go to fill my car up 00:22:55.534 --> 00:22:58.634 with gas the bloke doesn't say would you like some dyadic or would you like 00:22:58.844 --> 00:23:02.864 some diesel or, you know, when I'm trying to, you know, walking my dog 00:23:02.864 --> 00:23:05.084 I'm saying how's your dyadic today. 00:23:05.604 --> 00:23:07.614 So what's dyadic me. 00:23:08.074 --> 00:23:10.284 Ellie Williams: But it's more about the dyad, isn't it? 00:23:10.294 --> 00:23:13.844 The, the parent child, the connection with another. 00:23:14.624 --> 00:23:17.824 So, I mean, in theory it could be a dyad, 00:23:17.854 --> 00:23:19.504 Rupert Isaacson: meaning a two way relationship. 00:23:19.644 --> 00:23:19.884 Ellie Williams: Yes. 00:23:20.194 --> 00:23:20.524 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:23:22.374 --> 00:23:25.444 Ellie Williams: We prefer in the work that we do to have a parent 00:23:25.444 --> 00:23:28.374 child or, you know, have that dyad. 00:23:29.274 --> 00:23:34.244 If necessary, we need to have, I'm, I can be the other parts of that diet. 00:23:34.274 --> 00:23:37.354 I didn't see what I mean, like, cause it would be me and a client. 00:23:37.854 --> 00:23:41.544 or preferably the client and a caregiver. 00:23:43.614 --> 00:23:47.634 Rupert Isaacson: And you are facilitating between the dyad. 00:23:48.004 --> 00:23:48.254 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:23:48.314 --> 00:23:49.044 Rupert Isaacson: Your piggy in the middle. 00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:50.650 How does it work to talk us through it? 00:23:51.600 --> 00:23:53.940 Ellie Williams: So it just I think the biggest thing is, is when 00:23:53.940 --> 00:23:57.310 we first start with a client, I guess I'll start at the beginning. 00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:02.400 I really need to know more about the caregiver, whether it's a foster parent, 00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.930 whether it's a biological parent, adopted parent, whoever that might be. 00:24:07.170 --> 00:24:12.060 I need to know, and they talk in DDP, they talk about. 00:24:12.675 --> 00:24:17.085 Meeting with them separately first and getting to know them and learning 00:24:17.095 --> 00:24:22.075 about their own attachment history and really learning and helping 00:24:22.075 --> 00:24:25.275 them because if you're asking them to do something very different. 00:24:25.815 --> 00:24:29.755 from their original parenting style, it's going to be a little bit tricky. 00:24:29.935 --> 00:24:33.225 So it's basically building that relationship between you and the 00:24:33.225 --> 00:24:41.085 caregiver first, and then bringing the child in to work with, within that 00:24:41.085 --> 00:24:42.995 dyad, like you were talking about. 00:24:43.775 --> 00:24:48.745 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so what would be the standard tools that you'd use? 00:24:48.765 --> 00:24:49.735 And how's the horse come in? 00:24:51.025 --> 00:24:54.235 Ellie Williams: Well, the great thing is, is that so as of right now, we have three 00:24:54.235 --> 00:24:56.965 miniature horses, two horses, and a pony. 00:24:57.460 --> 00:25:01.850 And we'll, I'll just give an example. 00:25:01.850 --> 00:25:04.230 I think it's great when you can give an example rather than 00:25:04.230 --> 00:25:05.770 just talking in generalities. 00:25:06.300 --> 00:25:07.090 I have a family. 00:25:07.090 --> 00:25:13.510 I work with a young boy and have multiple siblings. 00:25:13.830 --> 00:25:17.770 So we have three miniature horses that are now been named. 00:25:18.785 --> 00:25:22.815 The siblings and they sort of through discussion like, well, which one's 00:25:22.815 --> 00:25:26.335 this one, you know, and, well, that one's the one that stares off into 00:25:26.365 --> 00:25:27.915 the corner and kind of withdraw. 00:25:28.035 --> 00:25:29.385 So that's that that kid. 00:25:29.515 --> 00:25:30.475 That's kid a. 00:25:30.935 --> 00:25:34.895 And the one that's up in everyone's business and trying to eat your clothes. 00:25:34.985 --> 00:25:35.469 Well, that's. 00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:41.680 Child B, and oh, and the cat, that's child C, because he is in everybody's 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.690 business, and he's also typically a little, you know, so we're using through 00:25:45.690 --> 00:25:50.270 metaphor, and being able to connect with the animals through that way and 00:25:50.270 --> 00:25:55.730 then we will, very much like the Agala model, we will throw out, whether 00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:02.100 it's, you know, creating something, or observing relationships or interactions. 00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:07.260 And then through discussion and processing, being able to take those 00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:13.390 experiences from the client, observing the horses and the interactions, and 00:26:13.390 --> 00:26:15.080 then connecting it to their own life. 00:26:16.120 --> 00:26:19.730 Rupert Isaacson: So what happens when you get a kid or a 00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:21.380 client saying don't be stupid. 00:26:21.380 --> 00:26:22.560 That's not my dad. 00:26:22.570 --> 00:26:25.680 That's a cat You know, why should you know, that's just a cat. 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:26.630 You know, this is stupid. 00:26:26.630 --> 00:26:29.770 Well, yeah How do you how do you navigate that? 00:26:31.550 --> 00:26:35.450 Ellie Williams: I almost went like so I was almost like oh and then I 00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:36.500 was like Well, I'm not in session. 00:26:36.500 --> 00:26:42.295 So I'll stop um So, it is, it is hard, it is hard to sometimes see that 00:26:42.295 --> 00:26:46.395 cat, you know, it is a cat, and it's hard to see, like, you know, because 00:26:46.395 --> 00:26:47.895 they are very literal, aren't they? 00:26:48.015 --> 00:26:48.205 Yeah. 00:26:48.205 --> 00:26:51.375 And it is, and so I'll have empathy for them, but they're like screw 00:26:51.455 --> 00:26:54.234 this, I don't, I don't, I won't do that, that's not Right, and there can 00:26:54.235 --> 00:26:55.515 Rupert Isaacson: be a need to challenge, right? 00:26:55.545 --> 00:27:00.285 They need you to show that you care enough to explain why the cat. 00:27:00.715 --> 00:27:01.125 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:27:01.645 --> 00:27:04.095 And if that's going to be a cat, that's fine, that's a cat. 00:27:04.885 --> 00:27:08.315 And then it, then it, the conversation might then be connected with, 00:27:08.905 --> 00:27:10.495 it's hard to feel connected. 00:27:10.535 --> 00:27:16.485 So if you keep it as a cat, it's not as real and it's not as it's connected as a, 00:27:16.515 --> 00:27:21.075 as, as the person, if you see what I mean, that there's, you know, has been labeled. 00:27:21.575 --> 00:27:21.895 Yeah. 00:27:22.255 --> 00:27:24.055 It keeps it separate. 00:27:24.560 --> 00:27:26.240 So, does that make sense? 00:27:26.510 --> 00:27:28.170 Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that sometimes you have to 00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:30.940 actually explain metaphor? 00:27:32.660 --> 00:27:36.110 Ellie Williams: Um, for the little ones, I do. 00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:41.690 At the beginning, when we first start with the equine therapy, I'll explain 00:27:41.690 --> 00:27:46.200 the metaphor a little bit more, just because they don't understand 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.670 metaphors, really, until a certain age. 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:49.160 Yeah, I mean, 00:27:49.260 --> 00:27:49.880 Rupert Isaacson: it's fairly complex. 00:27:50.630 --> 00:27:51.520 Ellie Williams: Yeah, yeah. 00:27:51.810 --> 00:27:54.610 So, we'll simplify it. 00:27:54.610 --> 00:27:54.840 Thanks. 00:27:55.365 --> 00:27:58.995 And you know, say, say the, the client's working with the miniature 00:27:58.995 --> 00:28:04.245 horse, and mom says, oh, well this is like Sally Sal, Sally and, and you. 00:28:04.245 --> 00:28:07.905 And so now we're gonna call that horse Sally for the rest of the, you 00:28:07.905 --> 00:28:09.315 know, when we're with that client. 00:28:09.375 --> 00:28:12.465 Unless the client says, no, not Sally, I don't want s you know, I 00:28:12.465 --> 00:28:13.665 don't want it to be called Sally. 00:28:14.055 --> 00:28:16.185 And then being able to put words to that. 00:28:16.995 --> 00:28:22.185 Wow, what is it about this one that's like Sally, you know, so, 00:28:22.485 --> 00:28:25.565 even if they're a little resistant, you can still keep working with it. 00:28:26.365 --> 00:28:29.455 Rupert Isaacson: But I presume you need people to at least have a certain degree 00:28:29.455 --> 00:28:32.215 of theory, what psychologists would call theory of mind and false belief. 00:28:32.575 --> 00:28:32.815 Absolutely. 00:28:33.325 --> 00:28:35.735 Understanding that other people see things differently. 00:28:35.955 --> 00:28:37.585 I remember spate taking. 00:28:38.275 --> 00:28:44.845 Oh, gosh, you know, two to four years slowly to educate Rowan, 00:28:44.855 --> 00:28:48.345 my son in metaphor, but of course he was classically autistic. 00:28:48.535 --> 00:28:50.985 Now, of course, he, you know, it's like he could script Monty Python. 00:28:51.455 --> 00:28:53.795 So I created a complete monster, which is great. 00:28:55.685 --> 00:29:01.105 But it, you know, the reason I ask, you know, one does sometimes find that. 00:29:02.685 --> 00:29:08.885 Metaphor doesn't come necessarily naturally to everybody, right? 00:29:09.125 --> 00:29:09.355 Ellie Williams: And I'm just 00:29:09.875 --> 00:29:12.275 Rupert Isaacson: intrigued at what, what are your tools for 00:29:12.495 --> 00:29:13.865 helping people to understand it? 00:29:13.865 --> 00:29:16.435 Do you have a kind of standard toolbox that you would use? 00:29:16.665 --> 00:29:18.445 Ellie Williams: I think everyone's different. 00:29:18.475 --> 00:29:22.255 It's kind of like, you know, when you have like horses, everyone's a bit different. 00:29:23.985 --> 00:29:27.945 I think for me, it's you have to get a feel for the client and you have to get 00:29:27.945 --> 00:29:33.065 a feel for their level of understanding and I adjust in the moment as necessary. 00:29:33.585 --> 00:29:37.975 If I need to explain it a bit deeper or make that connection and that's a 00:29:37.985 --> 00:29:41.375 little bit different than the Agala model because it's in the Agala model. 00:29:41.375 --> 00:29:45.635 It is about the metaphor and the client to maintain that metaphor. 00:29:45.975 --> 00:29:49.165 But like you're saying, sometimes, whether it's autism or attachment. 00:29:50.235 --> 00:29:51.215 They don't understand it. 00:29:51.245 --> 00:29:52.145 They don't get it. 00:29:52.395 --> 00:29:57.035 So being able to put words to that and explain it a bit more is necessary. 00:29:59.005 --> 00:30:02.475 Rupert Isaacson: What's your advice for someone who's starting out with 00:30:02.475 --> 00:30:06.555 this dialect model, who maybe would, I know I'm thrashing this horse a 00:30:06.555 --> 00:30:11.045 little bit, but what, if, if they, they run across a client who doesn't 00:30:11.605 --> 00:30:16.085 necessarily get the metaphor so easily, 00:30:16.635 --> 00:30:16.955 Ellie Williams: what 00:30:16.955 --> 00:30:23.010 Rupert Isaacson: would be your advice to somebody To help the client to 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.040 understand you're very experienced. 00:30:26.040 --> 00:30:26.970 I'm sure a lot of things come. 00:30:27.500 --> 00:30:27.900 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:30.090 Rupert Isaacson: Automatically to you, but imagine they didn't. 00:30:32.750 --> 00:30:35.110 Ellie Williams: I think for me, it's meeting them where they are. 00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:40.300 And sometimes it's just, is it about me wanting them to understand it? 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:40.790 Okay. 00:30:41.130 --> 00:30:43.520 You know, is it, is it because. 00:30:44.310 --> 00:30:47.110 Is it okay for them to just if they if they've got all this 00:30:47.330 --> 00:30:50.980 pent up energy and they need to run around the arena, 10 times. 00:30:51.890 --> 00:30:57.310 Let's have running races, you know let's let's change the focus and go somewhere, 00:30:57.390 --> 00:30:58.880 maybe we have to go somewhere different. 00:30:58.910 --> 00:31:02.330 Maybe we have to get creative, you know, I think that's. 00:31:03.905 --> 00:31:06.025 I have to reflect a little internally there. 00:31:06.105 --> 00:31:11.125 If it's, if it's me that needs them to know, is it working? 00:31:11.185 --> 00:31:13.105 Is it just naturally happening? 00:31:13.255 --> 00:31:16.635 If not, then there is more education of like, hey, buddy, this is really, 00:31:16.665 --> 00:31:18.275 this is a struggle for you, isn't it? 00:31:18.685 --> 00:31:23.330 Gosh, it must be, you know, mommy wasn't there for you when you were little. 00:31:23.870 --> 00:31:27.420 That must have been really difficult, you know, and now this, this 00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:29.540 horse here is over in the corner. 00:31:29.800 --> 00:31:32.460 And I wonder if there's a different way that we can, we can 00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:33.920 see if we can get him over here. 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:38.720 You know, like, so now I'm like encouraging and educating and connecting 00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:41.360 and helping him in a different way. 00:31:41.610 --> 00:31:41.950 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:31:42.010 --> 00:31:42.230 Right. 00:31:42.690 --> 00:31:45.530 I love your points about if they need to run around, then. 00:31:46.315 --> 00:31:47.055 Let them run around. 00:31:47.055 --> 00:31:48.955 I mean, that, that, as you know, with horse boy, that's the 00:31:48.955 --> 00:31:50.705 standard thing is follow the child. 00:31:50.745 --> 00:31:53.315 So without that, one can't build the trust. 00:31:53.315 --> 00:31:55.705 And if you can't build the trust, then there's no relationship. 00:31:55.705 --> 00:31:58.925 And if there's no relationship, there's no communication and we can't begin. 00:31:59.285 --> 00:32:01.765 But sometimes, you know, one can have trouble, perhaps. 00:32:02.190 --> 00:32:04.310 Explaining that to, to a parent or caregiver. 00:32:04.310 --> 00:32:07.730 He's like, no, we came here to do the thing, one thing. 00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:10.590 And like, well, because the person's not yet ready for the 00:32:10.590 --> 00:32:12.880 thing, ready them for the thing. 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:13.935 Ellie Williams: And 00:32:13.935 --> 00:32:14.990 Rupert Isaacson: I 00:32:15.070 --> 00:32:18.450 Ellie Williams: try and get that across to them when I meet with them first. 00:32:19.050 --> 00:32:22.250 That things are a little different around here sometimes and 00:32:22.490 --> 00:32:25.420 sometimes I look a little nuts, but you know, we'll get there. 00:32:26.100 --> 00:32:27.310 It just looks a little different 00:32:29.050 --> 00:32:32.390 Rupert Isaacson: just, you know, I want to go to a couple of the other modalities 00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:36.560 that you use, but with the DDP, what drew you to that particular model? 00:32:36.850 --> 00:32:38.580 So, so strongly, 00:32:39.230 --> 00:32:43.270 Ellie Williams: I think when, when the, when the attachment specialists moved 00:32:43.270 --> 00:32:47.230 out the area and I was like, well, crap now I've got to figure this one out. 00:32:47.565 --> 00:32:50.925 I did, I did a lot of research, and Dr. 00:32:50.925 --> 00:32:57.095 Hughes work is just so, it's profound, and it's so different, 00:32:57.355 --> 00:32:58.495 you know, it's being Who is 00:32:58.605 --> 00:32:58.845 Rupert Isaacson: Dr. 00:32:58.845 --> 00:32:59.135 Hughes? 00:32:59.135 --> 00:32:59.875 Tell us about Dr. 00:32:59.875 --> 00:33:00.175 Hughes. 00:33:00.575 --> 00:33:02.465 Ellie Williams: Dan Hughes, he calls me the horse lady. 00:33:04.185 --> 00:33:11.045 He's he's an amazing psychologist that just, he's written many, many books and he 00:33:11.075 --> 00:33:11.705 Rupert Isaacson: What's his first name again? 00:33:11.705 --> 00:33:12.605 We didn't quite get it. 00:33:12.785 --> 00:33:13.305 Ellie Williams: Dan. 00:33:13.305 --> 00:33:13.415 Dan. 00:33:13.415 --> 00:33:13.885 Dan 00:33:13.915 --> 00:33:14.285 Rupert Isaacson: Hughes. 00:33:14.335 --> 00:33:14.705 All right. 00:33:14.905 --> 00:33:15.335 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:33:15.445 --> 00:33:18.840 And he is He's just brilliant. 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:25.650 He's like, you know, just sees the world a different way and wants everybody to 00:33:25.650 --> 00:33:28.590 know, like, to share what that way is. 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:35.610 Kind of like when, with you and with Lynn and it just learning. 00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:37.200 I don't know. 00:33:37.840 --> 00:33:41.490 The thing I like about it, I mean, in traditional therapy, you're, you're 00:33:41.550 --> 00:33:46.560 taught to be the neutral party and you have to have no feeling and you 00:33:46.560 --> 00:33:49.510 have to be like this sort of stoic. 00:33:50.290 --> 00:33:51.940 blank thing. 00:33:52.590 --> 00:33:55.470 And with, with DDP, Dr. 00:33:55.470 --> 00:34:00.400 Hughes is, is about, you know, sometimes it is about helping this 00:34:00.420 --> 00:34:05.050 kid know that this is a sad moment and boy, oh, I'm getting a bit teary 00:34:05.050 --> 00:34:08.220 and I've got a tear in my eye and my heart's beating a bit faster. 00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:11.930 This is really sad, you know, because they don't know, they don't know what sad is, 00:34:12.630 --> 00:34:15.610 you know, and it's, it's, It's beautiful. 00:34:15.950 --> 00:34:20.880 It's a beautiful model, and he, he just wants to share it with everyone, 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:22.500 and he's done an amazing job. 00:34:22.950 --> 00:34:24.920 Yes, is it complicated? 00:34:25.050 --> 00:34:28.240 Did my brain explode in the training process? 00:34:28.240 --> 00:34:29.580 Probably about ten times. 00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:31.800 Rupert Isaacson: What was the thing that blew your brain the most? 00:34:32.690 --> 00:34:33.470 Ellie Williams: It just works. 00:34:33.570 --> 00:34:38.250 I think, I think the kind of like with, with the horse boy, there's 00:34:38.250 --> 00:34:40.240 a scientific aspect behind it. 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:43.460 There's a neurobiology behind the DDP. 00:34:43.470 --> 00:34:46.490 You've got Yeah, it's 00:34:46.950 --> 00:34:47.460 Rupert Isaacson: what is that? 00:34:47.470 --> 00:34:49.150 What is talk us through the science? 00:34:49.340 --> 00:34:49.990 I'm intrigued. 00:34:50.190 --> 00:34:52.740 Ellie Williams: Well, I think I think it's well, I think that's where I'm 00:34:52.740 --> 00:34:58.670 still I'm still learning in the fact of just how it regulates your system. 00:34:58.710 --> 00:35:01.300 How can you and that's why I use the neurofeedback which I'm sure 00:35:01.300 --> 00:35:02.450 we'll talk about at some point. 00:35:02.780 --> 00:35:03.050 Because. 00:35:04.120 --> 00:35:07.750 Clients that have attachment issues are dysregulated, and they don't know 00:35:07.750 --> 00:35:12.260 how to regulate, and then, so then, obviously your central nervous system 00:35:12.260 --> 00:35:16.240 is not in balance, so then you're, so there's a scientific aspect to 00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:20.480 it, and it makes sense, and when it works, and when you, when you avoid, 00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:26.650 The power struggle and you learn how to have, you know, a client accepts 00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:29.540 you and trust you to try new things. 00:35:29.660 --> 00:35:31.300 It's, it's just beautiful. 00:35:31.570 --> 00:35:32.000 So 00:35:32.540 --> 00:35:35.550 Rupert Isaacson: for those people that are followers of, I mean, we're 00:35:35.550 --> 00:35:39.340 all followers of some degree, you know, polyvagal theory to some, you 00:35:39.340 --> 00:35:41.620 know, is it something similar to that? 00:35:41.640 --> 00:35:43.580 Is it regulation of? 00:35:44.135 --> 00:35:44.295 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:35:44.655 --> 00:35:48.125 Rupert Isaacson: Autonomic nervous system getting you from your dorsal 00:35:48.135 --> 00:35:50.655 freak out to your ventral vagal 00:35:50.665 --> 00:35:51.215 Ellie Williams: ha. 00:35:51.485 --> 00:35:51.765 You know, 00:35:51.935 --> 00:35:53.855 Rupert Isaacson: is it trust and rest and digest? 00:35:53.855 --> 00:35:55.125 Is it along those lines? 00:35:56.235 --> 00:35:56.515 Ellie Williams: Yes. 00:35:58.655 --> 00:35:58.955 Yeah. 00:35:59.175 --> 00:36:02.285 There's a lot of discussion about polyvagal theory and. 00:36:02.745 --> 00:36:08.235 John Balin is a wonderful neurobiologist who's also involved in all of that 00:36:08.355 --> 00:36:12.835 and you know, yeah, it's just, I mean, it could be, talk about it for weeks. 00:36:12.975 --> 00:36:13.165 John 00:36:13.215 --> 00:36:14.155 Rupert Isaacson: Balin, you said? 00:36:14.165 --> 00:36:14.195 John 00:36:14.225 --> 00:36:15.765 Ellie Williams: Balin, J O N. 00:36:16.695 --> 00:36:20.215 Rupert Isaacson: And is he, he and Dan Hughes, they work together? 00:36:20.275 --> 00:36:21.785 And where are they based from? 00:36:22.085 --> 00:36:23.025 And how do we find out more? 00:36:23.540 --> 00:36:24.770 Ellie Williams: Both are in the Northeast. 00:36:25.160 --> 00:36:28.250 I think John's in Delaware, and I Dan's now up in Maine. 00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:30.490 He was in Pennsylvania, but he retired. 00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:32.630 Well, he's not really retired, but moved up to Maine. 00:36:32.630 --> 00:36:36.640 And they are a dream team when they work together. 00:36:36.680 --> 00:36:42.070 Actually, we have a conference in September for DDP. 00:36:42.090 --> 00:36:44.130 They're having a conference in the UK. 00:36:45.065 --> 00:36:50.615 And all about working with and seeing life through an intersectional lens. 00:36:51.035 --> 00:36:51.795 What does that mean? 00:36:52.465 --> 00:36:59.025 Just, like, just how everything comes together, whether it's 00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:05.820 draw the blank of just if you think of an intersection, whether it's 00:37:06.150 --> 00:37:12.640 diversity or racial or cultural or or everything, absolutely everything that 00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:14.330 Rupert Isaacson: add to a particular situation. 00:37:14.540 --> 00:37:15.010 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:37:15.090 --> 00:37:20.870 And just seeing, seeing life through that lens. 00:37:21.805 --> 00:37:24.075 And going to a deeper level. 00:37:24.355 --> 00:37:27.745 And this is sort of the focus of the, of the of the conference that 00:37:27.745 --> 00:37:29.805 we're having in, in September. 00:37:29.805 --> 00:37:34.325 And we're going to have some amazing, John and Dan will be one of the presenters. 00:37:34.455 --> 00:37:37.755 And we've got presenters from all over the world to really focus on this. 00:37:37.755 --> 00:37:39.585 And that's in September 00:37:39.585 --> 00:37:39.875 Rupert Isaacson: in the UK? 00:37:39.875 --> 00:37:40.635 Yeah. 00:37:40.635 --> 00:37:41.715 Okay, cool. 00:37:41.725 --> 00:37:42.505 In Nottingham. 00:37:43.035 --> 00:37:43.205 In 00:37:43.635 --> 00:37:44.005 Ellie Williams: Nottingham. 00:37:44.075 --> 00:37:44.935 Rupert Isaacson: One of my favorite places. 00:37:45.115 --> 00:37:45.805 You're going to be there? 00:37:46.275 --> 00:37:46.705 Ellie Williams: Yes. 00:37:46.705 --> 00:37:46.785 Okay. 00:37:47.165 --> 00:37:47.495 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:37:48.125 --> 00:37:49.235 Ellie Williams: Yeah, we are. 00:37:49.235 --> 00:37:51.195 It's good. 00:37:51.195 --> 00:37:52.285 It's going to be a good one. 00:37:52.375 --> 00:37:53.525 Rupert Isaacson: When in September is it? 00:37:54.415 --> 00:37:58.825 Ellie Williams: I think it's the 21st and 22nd thing. 00:37:59.025 --> 00:38:01.085 Rupert Isaacson: I might be in the UK then. 00:38:01.165 --> 00:38:01.855 Ellie Williams: Fantastic. 00:38:03.155 --> 00:38:03.595 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 00:38:03.995 --> 00:38:05.635 So DDP a good thing. 00:38:05.645 --> 00:38:06.705 People should look into it. 00:38:06.705 --> 00:38:07.675 I'm going to look into it. 00:38:08.295 --> 00:38:08.815 Okay. 00:38:08.885 --> 00:38:16.140 Talk to us about You've got, you know, equine assisted psychotherapy. 00:38:16.150 --> 00:38:21.830 So this is something which I think a lot of people are curious about. 00:38:25.630 --> 00:38:27.880 I'll try to talk about cause it sounds complicated. 00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:29.430 How does it dip? 00:38:29.460 --> 00:38:29.950 What is it? 00:38:29.950 --> 00:38:31.470 And how does it differ from DDP? 00:38:31.490 --> 00:38:32.720 When would you use one? 00:38:32.730 --> 00:38:34.130 And when would you use the other? 00:38:34.790 --> 00:38:36.440 Can you talk us through that a little bit, please? 00:38:36.850 --> 00:38:40.030 Ellie Williams: So I do, I do a lot of DDP in the office. 00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:42.600 And then I do a wonderful hybrid. 00:38:43.060 --> 00:38:47.940 I think I think where I, where I struggle, where things are 00:38:47.950 --> 00:38:50.010 different is in the Agala model. 00:38:50.050 --> 00:38:55.790 It's very self directed and it's about following the client's path 00:38:55.880 --> 00:39:06.085 and Sort of guiding and, and not, not directing, yeah, non directive. 00:39:06.415 --> 00:39:12.785 And with DDP, a lot of the clientele that we have, it's very, they don't 00:39:12.805 --> 00:39:16.945 understand human relationships in general, and they struggle with 00:39:16.945 --> 00:39:21.335 relationships, and they struggle, so being more directive is necessary. 00:39:21.555 --> 00:39:23.495 It's kind of like we were talking about the metaphor earlier. 00:39:24.285 --> 00:39:25.625 It's more difficult. 00:39:26.080 --> 00:39:26.720 They don't get it. 00:39:27.390 --> 00:39:30.800 So it's needed to maybe go into more detail. 00:39:31.150 --> 00:39:36.760 So this is where I've sort of provided this hybrid of utilizing my DDP skills 00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:41.490 and techniques within the equine therapy world, whether it's with a horse, whether 00:39:41.490 --> 00:39:45.860 it's with the dogs and cats, you know, whatever I might be using on the farm. 00:39:46.600 --> 00:39:47.110 If that makes sense. 00:39:47.490 --> 00:39:48.540 It does, it does. 00:39:49.050 --> 00:39:56.260 Rupert Isaacson: And now you've got, before we were pressing record you talked 00:39:56.260 --> 00:40:04.090 me through a situation that's a bit specific to Pennsylvania where the state 00:40:05.410 --> 00:40:10.670 has taken legal action over opioid use. 00:40:12.195 --> 00:40:18.845 If you're listening to this from, say, the UK or other parts of Europe you 00:40:18.855 --> 00:40:27.585 might not know or be aware of quite how drastically negatively the opioid, the 00:40:27.585 --> 00:40:32.875 use of opioids of various kinds, has impacted American life over the last. 00:40:33.170 --> 00:40:35.300 20, 25 years or so. 00:40:35.790 --> 00:40:38.880 Those of us who grew up, you know, in the 80s, we were all familiar with 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:43.900 crack and, you know, crystal meth and things that, you know, like that, 00:40:43.900 --> 00:40:45.390 which impacted families terribly. 00:40:45.660 --> 00:40:49.395 But the opioid epidemic, because these drugs are the cure. 00:40:49.395 --> 00:40:49.570 Yeah. 00:40:50.370 --> 00:40:53.790 Quote unquote legal sort of legal forms of heroin effectively, which 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:55.330 by the way started as a legal drug. 00:40:55.530 --> 00:40:56.600 That's why it was called heroin. 00:40:56.600 --> 00:41:00.930 It was actually created by Bayer in in Germany as supposedly a, a 00:41:00.930 --> 00:41:05.050 non addictive form of laudanum and that didn't work out very well. 00:41:05.060 --> 00:41:07.100 And they called it heroin because it was supposed to save the day. 00:41:07.610 --> 00:41:09.980 But they're, they're effectively forms of that. 00:41:09.990 --> 00:41:14.540 And, you know, when I was living in Texas for so long, I was observing 00:41:14.650 --> 00:41:19.320 Neighbors, kids of neighbors, people around me just falling like flies. 00:41:21.030 --> 00:41:23.320 And the latest one is fentanyl. 00:41:23.910 --> 00:41:28.250 And there are even people sort of within Horseboy who've lost relatives 00:41:28.430 --> 00:41:31.400 and that sort of thing in the last year or two to fentanyl, because 00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:36.480 fentanyl is so incredibly unregulated that you don't even know what's 00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:38.480 in the pill that you're taking. 00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:39.140 So people have been. 00:41:39.140 --> 00:41:40.230 A lot of people die. 00:41:40.900 --> 00:41:45.870 The pharmaceutical companies, Big Pharma have unusually actually 00:41:45.870 --> 00:41:47.400 been taken to task over this event. 00:41:47.690 --> 00:41:52.910 Can you talk us through what's happened in Pennsylvania and how that's 00:41:52.910 --> 00:41:55.510 affected the services that you provide? 00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:00.970 Ellie Williams: Yeah, it's really exciting in the fact that such horrible things 00:42:00.990 --> 00:42:04.170 have happened from the opioid epidemic. 00:42:04.410 --> 00:42:09.160 And The it's my understanding now, if I'm incorrect, if I speak 00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:12.230 incorrectly, it's not, it's not out of it's out of ignorance. 00:42:12.370 --> 00:42:13.950 But my understanding is, is that. 00:42:14.330 --> 00:42:20.440 The states are able to, you know, have have sued big pharma. 00:42:20.900 --> 00:42:25.530 From my understanding, and then been able to have some settlement funding. 00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.100 Come in to help them support the communities. 00:42:29.350 --> 00:42:33.760 Work through the things that have happened because of the opioid epidemic. 00:42:34.340 --> 00:42:37.950 And in our area it's, and I had to write it down because otherwise 00:42:38.080 --> 00:42:38.840 I don't want to mess it up. 00:42:39.110 --> 00:42:44.040 It's called the York Opioid Collaborative and everybody from 00:42:44.520 --> 00:42:51.540 outpatient clinicians, like myself to the the corner to different. 00:42:52.290 --> 00:42:56.370 Organizations in the area that deal with. 00:42:57.030 --> 00:43:00.600 Individual situations that are related to substance use 00:43:01.020 --> 00:43:02.770 specifically the opioid epidemic. 00:43:03.140 --> 00:43:06.810 We are all getting together and we are going to work as a team 00:43:07.070 --> 00:43:08.810 and we're going to try and. 00:43:10.190 --> 00:43:11.720 right the wrong, so to speak. 00:43:11.800 --> 00:43:17.310 And we're working on, you know, education, we're working on grief support. 00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:22.090 We're working on so many different things to help our community sort of 00:43:22.090 --> 00:43:26.900 rebuild from this, this, these horrendous things that have happened because of 00:43:27.580 --> 00:43:27.900 Rupert Isaacson: opioids. 00:43:27.950 --> 00:43:29.400 What are the horrendous things that have happened? 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:31.660 What have you observed in your rural community with this? 00:43:32.730 --> 00:43:35.600 Ellie Williams: I can't tell you how much like how many kids that 00:43:35.600 --> 00:43:36.990 I have that have been affected. 00:43:37.470 --> 00:43:41.140 By whether it's the, the death of a parent, the overdose of a parent 00:43:41.620 --> 00:43:45.620 drug addiction themselves it's a, it, yeah, it's so, it's just 00:43:45.670 --> 00:43:48.160 rampant, and it's just heartbreaking. 00:43:52.340 --> 00:43:54.460 Rupert Isaacson: How many of the kids that you're seeing that have ended up in 00:43:54.460 --> 00:43:58.145 the foster system, is it related to this? 00:44:00.915 --> 00:44:03.335 Ellie Williams: I would say more often than not, unfortunately, 00:44:03.705 --> 00:44:05.075 Rupert Isaacson: like 50%. 00:44:05.465 --> 00:44:05.975 Ellie Williams: Oh, yeah. 00:44:06.205 --> 00:44:06.575 Yeah. 00:44:06.915 --> 00:44:08.205 Rupert Isaacson: Above 70. 00:44:09.255 --> 00:44:12.035 Ellie Williams: I would probably say between 60 and 70 percent of our 00:44:12.035 --> 00:44:15.150 clients have a substance use disorder. 00:44:16.090 --> 00:44:21.250 Issue, connection, passing, death, you know, that sort of thing related 00:44:21.310 --> 00:44:23.370 to substance use, drugs and alcohol. 00:44:24.350 --> 00:44:28.090 Rupert Isaacson: Before I get into how you help them I'm just 00:44:28.460 --> 00:44:31.330 curious, you know, you're a long time resident in the U S you're as 00:44:31.330 --> 00:44:32.630 American as you're British, really. 00:44:33.820 --> 00:44:35.380 What do you attribute it to? 00:44:35.380 --> 00:44:44.630 Because when I was first moving to the USA drugs were really an urban problem. 00:44:44.630 --> 00:44:44.950 Right. 00:44:45.010 --> 00:44:49.360 And somewhere it shifted to becoming a rural problem. 00:44:49.510 --> 00:44:49.820 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:44:50.390 --> 00:44:54.080 Rupert Isaacson: You know, drugs was something which you did when I was young 00:44:54.080 --> 00:45:00.720 to try and be cool and identify with the counterculture and so on and so on. 00:45:00.720 --> 00:45:04.770 And then somewhere it moved into the mainstream. 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:06.190 Yeah. 00:45:06.310 --> 00:45:08.920 Did this, did this, yeah, town to country shift. 00:45:09.130 --> 00:45:09.610 Why? 00:45:09.620 --> 00:45:10.220 What happened? 00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:12.240 What do you think caused that? 00:45:12.240 --> 00:45:12.310 Yeah. 00:45:14.410 --> 00:45:18.160 Ellie Williams: I think, well, interestingly enough, because I know 00:45:18.160 --> 00:45:23.460 when we moved here in the late eight mid to late eighties, I remember my 00:45:23.470 --> 00:45:26.100 mom saying, Oh, we're in a good area. 00:45:26.100 --> 00:45:26.990 There's no drugs. 00:45:27.160 --> 00:45:28.310 You know, it's all good. 00:45:28.990 --> 00:45:31.240 And my brother said, I can get whatever you want tomorrow. 00:45:32.670 --> 00:45:34.240 So it was always there. 00:45:34.590 --> 00:45:39.450 I think, personally, I think, with transportation, I mean, everyone's mobile. 00:45:39.450 --> 00:45:41.470 Now, it's everywhere. 00:45:41.520 --> 00:45:46.730 In our area, we're sort of, you know, we've got New York, 00:45:46.770 --> 00:45:48.580 Philadelphia, Baltimore, D. 00:45:48.580 --> 00:45:49.100 C. 00:45:49.350 --> 00:45:52.408 We're sort of like in the 95, I 95 corridor. 00:45:52.408 --> 00:45:56.440 It's really from our area in South Central Pennsylvania. 00:45:57.200 --> 00:45:59.670 It's rampant because it can come in in the ports. 00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:00.630 It can come in. 00:46:01.415 --> 00:46:04.325 You know, so many different ways and everyone's getting creative with it. 00:46:05.265 --> 00:46:09.725 Rupert Isaacson: Right, but what, what's driving the demand 00:46:09.865 --> 00:46:11.485 and what I mean by that is 00:46:14.150 --> 00:46:21.260 When I was first, you know, I, I trained horses under the table illegally in 00:46:21.260 --> 00:46:25.420 Virginia when I first moved to the USA, so, you know, there's a lot of drinking, 00:46:25.420 --> 00:46:28.700 there's a certain amount of drug use, people use coke to keep, get themselves 00:46:28.710 --> 00:46:30.200 up in the morning, that sort of thing. 00:46:30.570 --> 00:46:33.150 And then, you know, that coke and that sort of thing were 00:46:33.150 --> 00:46:34.830 fairly rampant among the moneyed. 00:46:35.470 --> 00:46:38.290 Right owning youth and that sort of thing, but it was it was 00:46:40.340 --> 00:46:47.150 still in general things that people did to party really to sort of, I 00:46:47.150 --> 00:46:51.070 guess, to celebrate life in a way some people crashed on it, but others. 00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:55.690 You know, they did it for a while and then they moved on and there 00:46:55.690 --> 00:46:58.960 was sort of an expectation that that was what people would do. 00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:02.230 They'd go through their, you know, naughty phase and then, you 00:47:02.230 --> 00:47:04.760 know, this isn't a naughty phase. 00:47:05.170 --> 00:47:08.500 And what, what has changed in American culture? 00:47:08.500 --> 00:47:10.150 What's changed in rural culture? 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:15.090 I think because because you say you're on the I 95 corridor, right, but we know 00:47:15.090 --> 00:47:19.890 that you could go to the most remote part of Montana and it would be there. 00:47:20.090 --> 00:47:20.380 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:47:20.600 --> 00:47:25.760 Rupert Isaacson: And even where quality of life is high, you know, even where 00:47:26.930 --> 00:47:30.830 rural culture is strong and maybe there is a lot of cowboy culture and 00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:32.820 rodeo and there's stuff going on. 00:47:32.820 --> 00:47:34.550 And it's not like they're totally bored. 00:47:34.550 --> 00:47:35.750 I mean, there's stuff happening. 00:47:35.970 --> 00:47:38.320 What what's changed? 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:41.150 That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of something changed in the side. 00:47:42.065 --> 00:47:46.385 Ellie Williams: I think, I think as a, as a, as a culture, I think we were 00:47:46.505 --> 00:47:50.875 coming to the whole, like, instant gratification, no pain, you don't 00:47:50.875 --> 00:47:54.505 have to deal with it, you know, it's kind of like, it's like the opioids. 00:47:54.955 --> 00:47:58.135 Well, you have surgery will give an opioids because then it won't hurt. 00:47:58.225 --> 00:47:58.665 Right. 00:47:59.025 --> 00:48:01.215 And I think from a mental health perspective. 00:48:02.245 --> 00:48:07.505 I think people obviously are now learning that the mental health part of life is 00:48:07.535 --> 00:48:11.835 very important and it's been sort of poo pooed, you can't see it, it's not 00:48:11.835 --> 00:48:15.605 like a broken arm, you can't see it so people don't understand it as much 00:48:15.785 --> 00:48:22.205 and it's the same, and my, my opinion, whatever it, however it might come 00:48:22.205 --> 00:48:26.845 across, is that, you know, if you use, you don't have to feel, if you use, you 00:48:26.845 --> 00:48:31.320 don't have to cope and all those things that those struggles and, and use. 00:48:32.180 --> 00:48:34.470 Things that are difficult go away, 00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:35.150 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:48:35.180 --> 00:48:39.140 And I guess I guess I'm sort of thinking as you're as you're talking I guess 00:48:39.160 --> 00:48:44.760 that in back, you know, 30 40 years ago These drugs were illegal difficult 00:48:44.770 --> 00:48:47.720 to get you had to it was quite risky to go and get them That was half 00:48:47.850 --> 00:48:51.550 the thrill was you know, we've got to go to this bad area dodgy bloke 00:48:51.550 --> 00:48:56.080 that you got to buy it from and blah But of course these drugs are legal. 00:48:56.920 --> 00:48:57.280 Ellie Williams: Yeah 00:48:57.380 --> 00:49:00.515 Rupert Isaacson: prescribed by doctors and given a great Quantity 00:49:01.075 --> 00:49:04.405 and then they sit around in people's houses and kids find them. 00:49:04.935 --> 00:49:05.155 Ellie Williams: Yeah, 00:49:05.675 --> 00:49:07.505 Rupert Isaacson: maybe that's the difference perhaps. 00:49:07.725 --> 00:49:08.085 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:49:11.225 --> 00:49:14.665 Rupert Isaacson: What, what have you observed is the difference with 00:49:14.665 --> 00:49:20.095 Fentanyl as opposed to the other because Fentanyl seems to be the 00:49:20.095 --> 00:49:27.105 latest model that is the seems to be the Ferrari of death dealing legal. 00:49:27.665 --> 00:49:28.165 Right. 00:49:29.215 --> 00:49:29.755 Opioids. 00:49:29.755 --> 00:49:31.225 What's different about that one? 00:49:31.625 --> 00:49:32.735 Ellie Williams: I think it's the deadliest. 00:49:33.115 --> 00:49:33.465 I mean, 00:49:33.965 --> 00:49:35.005 Rupert Isaacson: why is it so deadly? 00:49:35.315 --> 00:49:36.095 Ellie Williams: It's so strong. 00:49:36.255 --> 00:49:38.135 It's, it's unregulated. 00:49:38.305 --> 00:49:40.925 You can't, I mean, it's, 00:49:44.175 --> 00:49:47.045 you never know what, you know, when it's, you know, you hear, I hear 00:49:47.045 --> 00:49:51.205 so often it was they, they OD'd because it was laced with fentanyl. 00:49:53.130 --> 00:49:55.770 because they can't regulate it. 00:49:56.220 --> 00:49:56.940 I mean, I'm not sure. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:59.650 I mean, it's an illegal drug, so it's not like it's going to be 00:49:59.680 --> 00:50:03.130 regulated, but you know, yeah. 00:50:04.610 --> 00:50:09.090 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so somebody comes to you and their life has 00:50:09.090 --> 00:50:10.560 been negatively impacted by it. 00:50:10.570 --> 00:50:14.500 What, what percentage of people are you seeing that are addicts slash users? 00:50:14.990 --> 00:50:19.310 What percentage of people are you seeing that are people who've been affected 00:50:19.310 --> 00:50:21.620 by family members who are addicts slash 00:50:21.620 --> 00:50:21.950 Ellie Williams: users? 00:50:21.950 --> 00:50:24.350 That's as an outpatient clinician, it's. 00:50:25.270 --> 00:50:29.050 You know, typically, I think many outpatient standpoint, active 00:50:29.070 --> 00:50:32.970 using is, it's not exactly, you know, our top choice. 00:50:33.530 --> 00:50:36.900 I did, I did work with one client in particular who was 00:50:36.980 --> 00:50:38.840 struggling with recovery. 00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:44.720 That's, we sort of continue to go back and forth. 00:50:45.720 --> 00:50:49.040 Most of the time they're working on their recovery. 00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:51.770 They've gone through rehab 00:50:53.980 --> 00:50:55.960 and a lot of times I'm working with the kids. 00:50:56.605 --> 00:51:01.375 And the kids watching the family members go through rehab, being away, 00:51:02.015 --> 00:51:05.465 disconnecting, maybe then, you know, 00:51:07.505 --> 00:51:10.325 starting to use again, you know, that sort of thing. 00:51:11.555 --> 00:51:15.145 So that's where, that's where I, my, a lot of my work is with the, with the kiddos. 00:51:16.425 --> 00:51:18.935 Rupert Isaacson: And so when a kid is observing this obviously they're 00:51:18.935 --> 00:51:21.965 at risk of being drawn in, but 00:51:24.615 --> 00:51:29.015 there's also, you know, just a thousand other traumas that come. 00:51:29.185 --> 00:51:30.525 What's your standard? 00:51:31.150 --> 00:51:36.160 approach with a kid that is affected by this going on in the household? 00:51:36.160 --> 00:51:36.730 What do you 00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:40.400 Ellie Williams: I think, I think for me, from a therapeutic standpoint, it's, 00:51:40.470 --> 00:51:45.600 it's understanding what they're, what they're going through, what they're, how 00:51:45.600 --> 00:51:51.430 it's affecting them, how it, how I can help support them and process through 00:51:51.620 --> 00:51:53.860 these experiences, how to keep them safe. 00:51:55.540 --> 00:51:57.790 You know, those, those sort of things is very important. 00:51:59.270 --> 00:52:01.130 Rupert Isaacson: You have kids that say to you sometimes, well, you 00:52:01.130 --> 00:52:04.200 wouldn't understand Ellie, you come from a nice home, you, you grew up 00:52:04.200 --> 00:52:07.390 with horses, you're, you're posh, you're this, you're that, you know, 00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:11.680 how can you possibly empathize or put yourself in our shoes like this? 00:52:12.370 --> 00:52:13.100 Do you get that? 00:52:13.730 --> 00:52:14.960 Ellie Williams: Sometimes, yeah. 00:52:15.070 --> 00:52:19.250 And then sometimes it's, it's, it is, it's, you know, It does feel better 00:52:19.250 --> 00:52:21.990 when you feel like you're, you know, you talk to somebody that you can 00:52:21.990 --> 00:52:26.270 connect with and, you know, a lot of times that's when you're in the drug 00:52:26.270 --> 00:52:29.600 and alcohol field, you have people in recovery that are counselors. 00:52:30.230 --> 00:52:33.560 And, you know, sometimes that might be a conversation to be had. 00:52:34.090 --> 00:52:35.010 That would be really cool. 00:52:35.010 --> 00:52:36.020 Maybe we can connect. 00:52:36.040 --> 00:52:39.620 Maybe we can find somebody for you to connect with that has. 00:52:40.395 --> 00:52:46.205 Those, you know, experiences in a therapeutic setting, you 00:52:46.205 --> 00:52:47.525 know, let's talk about that. 00:52:47.525 --> 00:52:51.025 Let's unpack that a little bit, you know, cause it might just feel being, 00:52:51.435 --> 00:52:56.015 I need to feel like I can connect with somebody, but then is my education 00:52:56.015 --> 00:52:59.845 and understanding enough or are they just deflecting away and just 00:52:59.845 --> 00:53:01.175 saying, well, you're, you're crap. 00:53:01.175 --> 00:53:03.275 I don't want to talk to you cause I don't want to talk about it anyway. 00:53:03.445 --> 00:53:03.745 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:53:03.835 --> 00:53:04.145 Right. 00:53:04.455 --> 00:53:06.315 And I would find whatever excuse to not talk. 00:53:06.755 --> 00:53:07.095 Ellie Williams: Right. 00:53:07.565 --> 00:53:07.835 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:53:08.045 --> 00:53:09.275 How do the horses help with this? 00:53:10.415 --> 00:53:11.935 Ellie Williams: Oh, they're brilliant. 00:53:12.075 --> 00:53:12.935 They're just brilliant. 00:53:12.945 --> 00:53:15.825 They, they feed into the energy. 00:53:16.185 --> 00:53:18.405 I've had, I have these, these big blocks. 00:53:18.405 --> 00:53:21.635 I have these little blocks that have words written all over them. 00:53:21.685 --> 00:53:25.655 And I cannot tell you how often the kids will pull these blocks out and 00:53:25.655 --> 00:53:27.375 just throw them all out of the arena. 00:53:27.895 --> 00:53:29.725 And the horses will go over and pick them up. 00:53:30.295 --> 00:53:31.685 Nine times out of 10. 00:53:32.410 --> 00:53:38.260 I'm pretty sure horses can't read, but they'll pick up a block that will be 00:53:38.260 --> 00:53:45.210 like heartbroken or scared or, I mean, and all the blocks are not necessary, 00:53:45.320 --> 00:53:49.040 whatever they pick up, the client can relate whatever's happening with. 00:53:49.520 --> 00:53:50.120 And 00:53:50.380 --> 00:53:52.130 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, do you have a block that says totally cool? 00:53:52.130 --> 00:53:52.640 No problem. 00:53:52.640 --> 00:53:55.250 Ellie Williams: I need to have one of those actually. 00:53:55.250 --> 00:53:55.540 Yeah. 00:53:55.920 --> 00:54:00.210 But we do, we have loved, we have all these different ones and it more times 00:54:00.210 --> 00:54:04.645 than not, the horses will They'll connect, whether it's, whether it's 00:54:04.745 --> 00:54:10.725 if they need the energy and the being beside them and interact with them in 00:54:10.725 --> 00:54:14.915 the moment, or if they need to like, they've turned their butts around 00:54:14.915 --> 00:54:17.495 facing away, those sorts of things. 00:54:17.995 --> 00:54:21.435 And as a clinician, then that's, that's what we talk about. 00:54:22.075 --> 00:54:23.265 Oh, that's really interesting. 00:54:23.265 --> 00:54:25.675 That one's over there looking that way. 00:54:25.695 --> 00:54:27.245 What's, what's going on with that? 00:54:29.225 --> 00:54:30.425 You know, that's my mom. 00:54:30.425 --> 00:54:31.365 She's always looking out. 00:54:31.375 --> 00:54:33.895 She's checking to see where, where the dealer is and when, when the 00:54:33.895 --> 00:54:38.555 next fix is coming and, you know, I'm just back in, don't give a 00:54:38.555 --> 00:54:40.005 shit, you know, that sort of thing. 00:54:40.375 --> 00:54:45.775 And yeah, it's just the horses feel it. 00:54:45.855 --> 00:54:47.105 They feel the energy. 00:54:49.415 --> 00:54:51.025 Rupert Isaacson: When you get these kids, how long are you 00:54:51.065 --> 00:54:53.135 typically working with them for? 00:54:53.165 --> 00:54:57.305 And do you get a chance to follow through with their progress afterwards? 00:54:57.305 --> 00:55:00.095 Or does it, is it a bit of a mystery where they go? 00:55:01.385 --> 00:55:01.415 Ellie Williams: It's. 00:55:03.145 --> 00:55:05.895 It's an interesting, that's an interesting question, actually, because 00:55:07.295 --> 00:55:11.705 the process with developmental trauma is sort of, it's not a quick one. 00:55:13.165 --> 00:55:19.185 And I have found in child welfare in our area more recently, they've been trying to 00:55:19.305 --> 00:55:20.815 sort of push things through a bit quicker. 00:55:21.045 --> 00:55:24.495 You know, whether it's terminating parental rights, placing for 00:55:24.495 --> 00:55:27.326 adoption, that sort of thing. 00:55:27.326 --> 00:55:29.990 But it's, it's interesting that 00:55:32.080 --> 00:55:37.400 If you don't have the child or the client regulated and secure, they're 00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:41.540 not going to, they're not able to then move forward in life in a healthy way. 00:55:41.660 --> 00:55:45.480 And then you have failed adoptions and you have ongoing mental health issues. 00:55:45.900 --> 00:55:51.480 And it's, I've seen more of it because they're pushing things along and I'm 00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:58.310 saying they're not ready, but then I'm getting trumped because For reasons of, 00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:02.050 you know, the child welfare system says, well, they, they need to be adopted now. 00:56:02.630 --> 00:56:04.630 And sometimes they need to be adopted. 00:56:04.900 --> 00:56:06.720 But my services need to continue. 00:56:07.630 --> 00:56:08.150 Right. 00:56:08.340 --> 00:56:12.710 But in our area and most areas that the cases close. 00:56:13.900 --> 00:56:17.420 The day of adoption, so then services don't continue 00:56:17.420 --> 00:56:18.770 unless they pay out of pocket. 00:56:19.965 --> 00:56:21.865 So we are creative. 00:56:22.135 --> 00:56:26.305 There are, there are times where I have the, the children and youth 00:56:26.455 --> 00:56:31.595 have agreed to pay for up to a year of continued services or ongoing. 00:56:31.785 --> 00:56:32.845 So we're getting there. 00:56:32.985 --> 00:56:33.735 We're getting there. 00:56:33.775 --> 00:56:36.815 But it's, you know, I do. 00:56:36.845 --> 00:56:40.275 I mean, I've had clients that have been with me for six months to a year. 00:56:40.285 --> 00:56:43.205 I've got clients that have been with me for nine years. 00:56:43.795 --> 00:56:44.165 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:56:44.495 --> 00:56:47.665 Talk to us about a nine year client because that, that's, that's quite. 00:56:48.250 --> 00:56:50.690 An amazing thing to be able to go through that kind of trajectory 00:56:50.690 --> 00:56:51.980 of relationship with somebody. 00:56:52.330 --> 00:56:56.000 Can you, without naming names, can you talk us through a story? 00:56:56.820 --> 00:56:59.390 Ellie Williams: So, I've got a couple. 00:56:59.850 --> 00:57:00.200 I'll go. 00:57:00.450 --> 00:57:04.830 So, this one, this one's a cool one because this is a kiddo. 00:57:05.660 --> 00:57:11.110 You know, when you work with clients that have extreme trauma, extreme, 00:57:11.120 --> 00:57:14.970 extreme trauma, life was very unsafe. 00:57:15.290 --> 00:57:18.000 And I'm going to talk in very big generalities, because I know this is 00:57:18.120 --> 00:57:22.890 going nation worldwide, nationwide, and I don't want to even come close to 00:57:23.490 --> 00:57:25.460 potentially breaching confidentiality. 00:57:25.940 --> 00:57:31.630 So working with a client and a caregiver within the, and we, and 00:57:31.640 --> 00:57:35.840 she clients to this left the client that I've had for a long time. 00:57:37.035 --> 00:57:38.994 All the programs, so I've. 00:57:39.290 --> 00:57:43.400 They've had neurofeedback, they've had DDP, they've had client therapy, 00:57:43.430 --> 00:57:48.330 they've, you name it, that we've done it, they've done it, you know, 00:57:48.500 --> 00:57:57.130 and, and, and just learning that life isn't scary and life is not chaotic. 00:57:57.150 --> 00:58:02.635 And, you know, from, from a lot of times I have clients that There's a lot 00:58:02.635 --> 00:58:07.715 of pooping issues, urinating issues, whether it's in the rooms, whether it's 00:58:07.775 --> 00:58:12.895 in the house a lot of sabotage again, power struggles, need for control. 00:58:13.275 --> 00:58:15.085 They have nothing else that they can control. 00:58:15.105 --> 00:58:15.785 They will control. 00:58:16.435 --> 00:58:20.985 their bowel movements and extreme behavioral issues, extreme 00:58:20.985 --> 00:58:23.325 behavioral issues, runaway behaviors. 00:58:23.415 --> 00:58:27.905 I mean, going, you know, all of these things and just never giving up. 00:58:28.325 --> 00:58:31.155 And I think that's the biggest thing when you have a client for so long, 00:58:32.255 --> 00:58:34.045 you're building the relationship, right? 00:58:34.425 --> 00:58:37.215 This is a client that doesn't know how to build relationships. 00:58:37.235 --> 00:58:40.455 They weren't, didn't have that secure attachment. 00:58:41.115 --> 00:58:45.385 So, not giving up, you know, they run away, well we're gonna, let's, 00:58:45.545 --> 00:58:48.455 let's figure out how to keep you safe, what's going on, finding the 00:58:48.455 --> 00:58:50.565 right medications, that sort of thing. 00:58:51.365 --> 00:58:59.585 So now, being able to reflect to a level of, you know, sometimes I just 00:58:59.585 --> 00:59:02.655 don't get people, and sometimes I talk to them and I just, there's a sort of 00:59:02.655 --> 00:59:07.265 this void of, because I, I wasn't taught that when I was little, you know, when 00:59:07.285 --> 00:59:12.455 I was young, I didn't know what that was, and I wasn't, you know, nobody. 00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:17.210 I didn't know what having a cuddle and feeling safe and secure was, 00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:22.680 and being able to go from that to then now being able to reflect to 00:59:22.680 --> 00:59:27.040 a deeper level, and I only see them once a month, you know, and it just. 00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:32.400 What a journey for them to now be able to go out into into the world. 00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:35.320 And yeah, it's just beautiful, 00:59:35.430 --> 00:59:35.730 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:59:35.910 --> 00:59:38.450 We judge or we discern if you like success. 00:59:38.810 --> 00:59:43.540 So often by, as you said, going out into the world having a job, having home, 00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:46.830 not causing trouble, you know, not. 00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:53.470 causing yourself or others undue suffering, but even, even more becoming 00:59:53.470 --> 00:59:55.600 a contributing member of society. 00:59:55.860 --> 00:59:57.820 Have you, have you seen that outcome? 00:59:58.440 --> 00:59:58.990 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 00:59:59.790 --> 01:00:00.170 Yeah. 01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:05.040 And even, even times where I've seen, I've maybe worked with them for a short time. 01:00:05.500 --> 01:00:10.820 And like I said, this, the models that I've chosen to use in, in sort 01:00:10.820 --> 01:00:12.590 of collaboration and combination. 01:00:13.150 --> 01:00:17.020 Like I've seen kids that might have run away, but I've worked with them 01:00:17.020 --> 01:00:18.820 for six months to a year and then. 01:00:19.415 --> 01:00:22.315 Been able to just through the grapevine, I'll run into a worker and 01:00:22.315 --> 01:00:26.615 be like, oh, you know, did they ever like, reconnect if they have a safe. 01:00:27.035 --> 01:00:30.475 And to know that they're doing okay, and they're doing well, and yes, they did 01:00:30.475 --> 01:00:32.945 have some struggles, but they're safe now. 01:00:33.625 --> 01:00:38.795 Means the world, you know, and I had a kid that I went to shelter to see, and I 01:00:38.795 --> 01:00:40.525 was like, wait, this kid looks familiar. 01:00:41.575 --> 01:00:45.565 He was a part of a group that we had years ago, and this kid 01:00:45.565 --> 01:00:49.095 remembered the names of our animals, the dogs, the horses and the cats. 01:00:49.860 --> 01:00:54.480 And you can't tell me in typical therapy and traditional therapy half 01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:58.160 the time the kids don't even know the name of the therapist, right? 01:00:58.740 --> 01:00:59.800 That's pretty powerful. 01:01:00.070 --> 01:01:01.060 That's pretty powerful. 01:01:03.310 --> 01:01:08.050 Rupert Isaacson: When you, have you seen any of those people come 01:01:08.090 --> 01:01:12.300 into the therapy world themselves and, and become therapist mentors? 01:01:14.330 --> 01:01:15.170 Ellie Williams: Not yet. 01:01:15.170 --> 01:01:17.720 Just because I mean, we're in 18 years. 01:01:18.130 --> 01:01:23.090 I have had some interns that have been that have grown up in the foster care 01:01:23.090 --> 01:01:27.610 system that have become therapists, but I did not work with them to 01:01:27.610 --> 01:01:28.240 Rupert Isaacson: see that happen. 01:01:28.540 --> 01:01:28.910 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:01:29.430 --> 01:01:30.120 Yeah, for sure. 01:01:30.570 --> 01:01:31.230 Rupert Isaacson: That's great. 01:01:31.550 --> 01:01:35.210 So, so, so some can see it as a career path too. 01:01:35.790 --> 01:01:35.970 Ellie Williams: Yes. 01:01:36.630 --> 01:01:36.870 Rupert Isaacson: Great. 01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:37.080 Yeah. 01:01:37.860 --> 01:01:38.190 Alright. 01:01:38.190 --> 01:01:42.780 I want to ask you about another thing, . You mentioned neurofeedback. 01:01:42.780 --> 01:01:44.760 Now I happen to be a fan of neurofeedback. 01:01:44.765 --> 01:01:49.170 I've had neurofeedback myself and in times in my life when I've been 01:01:49.170 --> 01:01:53.070 going through funks, you know, I will seek out healing of various kinds. 01:01:53.070 --> 01:01:57.870 People know that I would obviously ride to Mongolia or go to the Kalahari or. 01:01:58.575 --> 01:02:01.005 You know, go sit in sweat lodges and all of that. 01:02:01.025 --> 01:02:01.325 Yes. 01:02:01.875 --> 01:02:07.925 But I'd also look, you know, in more conventional as much as saying 01:02:08.095 --> 01:02:09.065 neurofeedback is conventional. 01:02:09.435 --> 01:02:10.685 And I've, you know, tried therapy. 01:02:10.685 --> 01:02:14.255 I find therapy didn't work for me so much because it felt like my nose was 01:02:14.255 --> 01:02:17.865 being rubbed in my own poop you know, and it was a bit less of a bad dog, 01:02:17.895 --> 01:02:19.725 you know, bad dog is why I'm here. 01:02:20.065 --> 01:02:24.315 But I found with neurofeedback I've been intrigued because I've met a 01:02:24.315 --> 01:02:27.880 neurofeedback the practitioner and therapist some years before, and I'd 01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:29.940 always say, Ooh, that sounds interesting. 01:02:29.940 --> 01:02:30.950 Got to learn more about that. 01:02:31.410 --> 01:02:32.240 And it'd been on the list. 01:02:32.240 --> 01:02:35.880 And then finally that was for the one day I think I might benefit from that. 01:02:36.150 --> 01:02:40.260 So I went along and had the, you know, the electrodes put on 01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:41.890 my head and watch the screen. 01:02:41.890 --> 01:02:44.420 I'm going to have you talk us through what happens with that. 01:02:45.190 --> 01:02:48.350 But what was interesting to me is I could feel, I could 01:02:48.380 --> 01:02:51.190 physically feel my brain changing. 01:02:51.680 --> 01:02:51.950 Yeah. 01:02:52.060 --> 01:02:54.390 And I could feel. 01:02:55.655 --> 01:02:58.795 Thought processes changing in a way that 01:03:01.225 --> 01:03:09.055 the closest I could come to something, compare that palpably was things 01:03:09.055 --> 01:03:12.915 I felt with really good healers in indigenous settings, where you could 01:03:12.915 --> 01:03:17.285 feel the change really happening physiologically inside you and your brain. 01:03:17.515 --> 01:03:19.935 So please talk us through neurofeedback. 01:03:20.165 --> 01:03:21.665 Not a lot of people won't know what it is. 01:03:22.125 --> 01:03:26.005 And they might get that confused with other types of feedback things. 01:03:27.075 --> 01:03:28.805 So what is neurofeedback? 01:03:28.815 --> 01:03:30.965 How does it differ from other types of feedback? 01:03:31.015 --> 01:03:33.905 And then also there are different types of neurofeedback. 01:03:33.905 --> 01:03:35.685 So just give us the skinny. 01:03:36.275 --> 01:03:40.715 Ellie Williams: So I use a system called neuro optimal neurofeedback, 01:03:40.925 --> 01:03:46.025 and that is a system that is sort of all included within itself. 01:03:46.065 --> 01:03:51.955 So sometimes with biofeedback or other neurofeedback systems, You have to become 01:03:51.955 --> 01:03:58.885 a clinician in that you make adjustments as the, the training goes with the system 01:03:58.885 --> 01:04:01.015 that I use the neuro optimal system. 01:04:01.605 --> 01:04:03.075 It is all within the algorithm. 01:04:03.415 --> 01:04:07.885 So, as having the machine, the brain training system, I 01:04:07.885 --> 01:04:10.705 am able to hook up a client. 01:04:11.555 --> 01:04:12.875 It's a 33 minutes. 01:04:13.610 --> 01:04:16.970 System training and I unhook them. 01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:19.910 Everything is done within the algorithm, which is fantastic because 01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:21.680 there's no room for human error. 01:04:22.110 --> 01:04:22.740 It really 01:04:22.750 --> 01:04:25.560 Rupert Isaacson: does that mean if I go Alexa is healing me. 01:04:29.160 --> 01:04:30.820 Alexa fix my brain. 01:04:31.040 --> 01:04:31.370 Ellie Williams: Yeah, 01:04:32.040 --> 01:04:32.470 Rupert Isaacson: brain 01:04:33.270 --> 01:04:33.560 Ellie Williams: brain. 01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:34.450 Okay. 01:04:34.450 --> 01:04:37.190 Yeah, it's I love this system. 01:04:37.260 --> 01:04:42.180 And again, it's the system that I chose to use because of it being within. 01:04:42.590 --> 01:04:45.830 Within the system, and I don't have to because I do it there. 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:50.470 I can do a therapy session while that client is hooked up for neurofeedback. 01:04:50.520 --> 01:04:53.250 So, the system that I use reads. 01:04:53.250 --> 01:05:00.440 356 brain waves a 2nd, it allows for if it reads an imbalance in the 01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:03.890 brain, there will be a scratch in the music or a break in the music. 01:05:04.240 --> 01:05:06.710 and the brain kind of goes, wait, what? 01:05:06.830 --> 01:05:08.080 And adjusts. 01:05:08.710 --> 01:05:13.350 So it's helping sort of like regulate your brain mechanically. 01:05:13.680 --> 01:05:17.470 So then hopefully your brain will then start regulating itself on its own. 01:05:18.945 --> 01:05:19.795 Rupert Isaacson: Are they watching? 01:05:19.795 --> 01:05:23.725 So when I did it, I watched a movie and then I actually 01:05:23.725 --> 01:05:25.925 watched a series on neuroscience. 01:05:25.935 --> 01:05:30.855 I thought that was appropriate and I was sitting in the chair and whenever 01:05:30.915 --> 01:05:35.025 occasionally, you know, the screen go very small or fuzzy or something. 01:05:35.065 --> 01:05:41.595 And presumably that was when the machine was detecting some quirk or anomaly or 01:05:41.595 --> 01:05:44.115 something, and then it would write itself. 01:05:44.115 --> 01:05:46.965 And as you explained that, you know, my therapist explained, 01:05:46.965 --> 01:05:47.845 well, that's your brain. 01:05:48.410 --> 01:05:54.070 Writing it, but this is a bit, this can come off as gobbledygook to people 01:05:54.070 --> 01:05:55.930 that don't know and understand it. 01:05:56.180 --> 01:05:56.960 What's going on? 01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:57.820 Why are you watching a screen? 01:05:57.820 --> 01:05:58.800 Why are you listening to music? 01:05:58.940 --> 01:06:01.350 Why does it change or the screen go small or something? 01:06:01.550 --> 01:06:06.670 What's happening when that happens and what happens when it writes itself? 01:06:06.730 --> 01:06:09.870 Just give us a total ignoramus to tell us. 01:06:10.455 --> 01:06:13.055 Ellie Williams: Well, I think, I think when the brain is stressed, if 01:06:13.055 --> 01:06:16.145 you think about a muscle, like your brain's a muscle, just like your arms 01:06:16.145 --> 01:06:17.365 and your legs and all that stuff. 01:06:17.405 --> 01:06:21.615 But when you're out of whack, your brain, nothing is balanced. 01:06:21.755 --> 01:06:22.315 Right? 01:06:22.555 --> 01:06:26.655 So, it's, it's like, when we're stressed, we're holding ourselves, 01:06:26.695 --> 01:06:30.505 we're tense, we're like, achy, our brain's achy, we have headaches we're 01:06:30.505 --> 01:06:33.075 not sleeping, those sort of things. 01:06:33.635 --> 01:06:37.865 And being able to, like you say, you feel a difference. 01:06:38.105 --> 01:06:41.625 So it's reading your brain waves and it's working to regulate. 01:06:41.625 --> 01:06:44.155 It's working to balance within the system. 01:06:44.185 --> 01:06:47.825 So I always called it my magic machine. 01:06:47.955 --> 01:06:48.795 I love the kids. 01:06:48.855 --> 01:06:51.685 They may they like me pulling it a magic machine because it does. 01:06:51.725 --> 01:06:53.270 They feel better using it. 01:06:54.110 --> 01:06:58.790 And the great thing is, is the system now you can actually do a therapy session 01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:00.660 during the time that you're hooked up. 01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:03.280 That's why I like doing, I mean, I can do a movie. 01:07:03.590 --> 01:07:07.230 I choose the audio with the music because I can do the 01:07:07.240 --> 01:07:08.680 therapy session at the same time. 01:07:10.115 --> 01:07:12.405 Rupert Isaacson: When you do a therapy session at the same time 01:07:12.455 --> 01:07:16.045 the, the, presumably the person, they're talking to you, right? 01:07:16.225 --> 01:07:16.405 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:07:17.045 --> 01:07:23.025 Rupert Isaacson: Presumably the person is going through, the brain 01:07:23.025 --> 01:07:26.485 is computing information that, you know, and trying to make decisions 01:07:26.495 --> 01:07:27.755 and trying to understand things. 01:07:29.865 --> 01:07:34.425 How do you know that the machine is not misinterpreting the brain 01:07:34.425 --> 01:07:36.215 going, what does Ellie mean by that? 01:07:36.555 --> 01:07:40.615 As a brain imbalance thing, like, how, how would it know? 01:07:41.625 --> 01:07:42.745 Ellie Williams: Because it's amazing. 01:07:44.825 --> 01:07:46.955 It is all within the algorithm, to be fair. 01:07:47.095 --> 01:07:48.155 I'd have to ask Dr. 01:07:48.155 --> 01:07:48.935 Brown for that one. 01:07:48.955 --> 01:07:49.615 But the 01:07:49.665 --> 01:07:50.095 Rupert Isaacson: Who is Dr. 01:07:50.155 --> 01:07:50.835 Brown, by the way? 01:07:50.865 --> 01:07:52.855 Ellie Williams: He created the neuro optimal system. 01:07:53.345 --> 01:07:53.685 Rupert Isaacson: Dr. 01:07:53.685 --> 01:07:54.295 Who Brown? 01:07:54.905 --> 01:07:55.575 Ellie Williams: Just go with Dr. 01:07:55.595 --> 01:07:57.445 Brown because it's something that's a bit, 01:07:57.625 --> 01:08:01.265 Rupert Isaacson: Neuro, neuro optimal, Neurofeedback, yes. 01:08:01.725 --> 01:08:02.175 Neurofeedback, Dr. 01:08:02.175 --> 01:08:02.345 Brown. 01:08:02.545 --> 01:08:03.795 Just keep talking, I'm going to look him up. 01:08:04.195 --> 01:08:04.865 Ellie Williams: Okay, thanks. 01:08:05.175 --> 01:08:06.395 So for me, it's, 01:08:08.655 --> 01:08:12.615 I find it interesting because I'll start with a client who might be actually quite 01:08:12.905 --> 01:08:18.585 resistant to opening up to that deeper level, and more often than not, the brain 01:08:18.585 --> 01:08:21.205 regulates probably about 15 minutes in. 01:08:21.715 --> 01:08:25.285 And it's starting to open up, and they're actually more open to going to 01:08:25.285 --> 01:08:30.065 a deeper level, so it's almost an aid to the therapy session, because you're 01:08:30.095 --> 01:08:34.345 able to really go to a great place. 01:08:34.645 --> 01:08:37.315 There's less deflection and disconnect. 01:08:37.675 --> 01:08:40.225 From a therapeutic perspective which is amazing. 01:08:40.315 --> 01:08:43.895 That's why when I have clients that are in shelter, and I go see them 01:08:43.895 --> 01:08:47.335 in shelter, I always recommend the neurofeedback along with a therapy 01:08:47.335 --> 01:08:51.945 session because it's important to me being in a shelter placement anyway 01:08:52.065 --> 01:08:53.795 is nerve wracking and stressful. 01:08:54.340 --> 01:09:00.010 So it's, it's just important, you know, we have the ability through the neuro 01:09:00.010 --> 01:09:07.960 optimal system to, to help regulate and balance and yeah, it's, it's amazing. 01:09:08.990 --> 01:09:12.200 Rupert Isaacson: What, what makes you decide, okay, I think for 01:09:12.200 --> 01:09:13.410 this client, it's neurofeedback. 01:09:15.350 --> 01:09:19.250 Ellie Williams: I think if I see them dysregulated and not being able to 01:09:19.260 --> 01:09:21.930 regulate, if, as long as I can keep them. 01:09:22.985 --> 01:09:26.265 In the chair, like I have some kids, like I said earlier that just need to run 01:09:26.275 --> 01:09:28.725 around, but it's a very active session. 01:09:29.265 --> 01:09:34.755 Obviously, I can't do that if they're attached to neurofeedback, but I 01:09:34.755 --> 01:09:39.495 think if I can see them starting to regulate themselves without it. 01:09:40.535 --> 01:09:45.925 they won't need it, you know, but if they really need, if they're that dysregulated 01:09:46.365 --> 01:09:51.455 and they're really struggling, it's such a, I mean, it's, it's just a wonderful, 01:09:53.385 --> 01:09:55.055 I don't know what the right word is tool. 01:09:55.115 --> 01:09:58.235 It's just a wonderful tool that it'll help them get to where 01:09:58.235 --> 01:10:01.565 they need to be easier, quicker. 01:10:02.055 --> 01:10:05.145 Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that in general clients, kids or adults 01:10:05.155 --> 01:10:06.615 that they're quite curious about it? 01:10:06.655 --> 01:10:06.935 Like, 01:10:07.655 --> 01:10:08.495 Ellie Williams: absolutely. 01:10:08.555 --> 01:10:09.085 So I do, 01:10:09.115 --> 01:10:09.315 Rupert Isaacson: right. 01:10:09.745 --> 01:10:10.085 Yeah, 01:10:10.545 --> 01:10:11.725 Ellie Williams: yeah, I do. 01:10:11.755 --> 01:10:17.795 I do some sports kids that have like big it either riding showing athletics. 01:10:17.955 --> 01:10:22.215 I have some clients that come just for neurofeedback because it helps 01:10:22.265 --> 01:10:24.985 with their sport performance. 01:10:25.585 --> 01:10:29.135 A lot of sports, especially, I mean, I think worldwide, but there's a lot of 01:10:29.135 --> 01:10:31.775 pressure in, in sports for teenagers. 01:10:32.400 --> 01:10:36.570 And I cannot tell you, like, I'll show up and nobody wants to see me. 01:10:36.570 --> 01:10:38.210 They're just like, you have the machine? 01:10:38.210 --> 01:10:39.410 Do you have the machine? 01:10:39.700 --> 01:10:42.550 Because they, they want to feel better and they do. 01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:44.130 Like you said, it works. 01:10:44.190 --> 01:10:45.320 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, it really did. 01:10:45.320 --> 01:10:47.120 It was, I looked forward. 01:10:47.120 --> 01:10:49.740 I, you know, I couldn't imagine looking forward to a therapy session 01:10:49.760 --> 01:10:51.740 until I, until I discovered that. 01:10:51.740 --> 01:10:54.770 I was like, I would, you know, I'd be like leaping out of the car and into the chair. 01:10:55.510 --> 01:10:55.870 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:10:56.570 --> 01:11:01.570 Rupert Isaacson: And it also felt frequently that one got full of 01:11:01.570 --> 01:11:05.630 endorphins because you could feel your brain actually working hard. 01:11:05.630 --> 01:11:06.030 You know how it is. 01:11:06.080 --> 01:11:07.260 You you're on you 01:11:07.740 --> 01:11:08.000 Ellie Williams: sometimes 01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:09.020 Rupert Isaacson: have trouble staying awake. 01:11:09.030 --> 01:11:13.060 You almost want to drop off and you can feel your brain kind of going fucking 01:11:13.060 --> 01:11:16.500 on running up the hill here, you know, and but there was a corresponding 01:11:16.500 --> 01:11:18.740 feeling of pleasure and relief. 01:11:19.160 --> 01:11:19.570 Ellie Williams: Right. 01:11:19.830 --> 01:11:21.210 Rupert Isaacson: It's as if one had done a workout. 01:11:21.570 --> 01:11:22.530 Have you, here's a question. 01:11:22.540 --> 01:11:23.470 Have you tried it yourself? 01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:24.260 Ellie Williams: Oh, I 01:11:24.260 --> 01:11:24.450 Rupert Isaacson: love 01:11:24.450 --> 01:11:24.710 Ellie Williams: it. 01:11:25.020 --> 01:11:25.530 Yes. 01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:30.530 If I have to, if I have a big court day, like testimony wise I'll hook up before 01:11:30.530 --> 01:11:32.500 I go in cause I'll be super focused. 01:11:32.750 --> 01:11:36.230 But also, you know, running a business and everything, you get, you know, 01:11:36.280 --> 01:11:38.650 get overwhelmed and it's a bit hectic. 01:11:39.050 --> 01:11:40.710 But it's a nice way to regulate as well. 01:11:40.740 --> 01:11:41.540 So yeah, love it. 01:11:41.590 --> 01:11:44.260 Rupert Isaacson: So when you do that, I mean, for your own stress management 01:11:44.270 --> 01:11:48.610 then and coping, do you have someone hook you up or do you hook yourself up? 01:11:49.090 --> 01:11:51.490 Ellie Williams: I hook myself up, which is quite tricky. 01:11:52.150 --> 01:11:52.730 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure. 01:11:53.625 --> 01:11:54.395 Ellie Williams: Trying to figure it out. 01:11:54.415 --> 01:11:54.705 Yeah. 01:11:55.075 --> 01:11:55.365 Yeah. 01:11:55.715 --> 01:11:56.035 I get it. 01:11:56.085 --> 01:11:56.435 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:11:56.695 --> 01:11:59.355 I can see why you had trouble remembering Dr. 01:11:59.355 --> 01:12:03.335 Brown's Christian name because it is indeed one I have never seen before. 01:12:03.785 --> 01:12:06.105 His name is Valdean. 01:12:06.475 --> 01:12:07.515 Ellie Williams: There you go, Val. 01:12:07.815 --> 01:12:08.205 That's it. 01:12:08.485 --> 01:12:09.775 I knew it was something difficult. 01:12:09.775 --> 01:12:11.605 Rupert Isaacson: Valdean. 01:12:11.605 --> 01:12:15.325 It's V A L D E A N E. 01:12:15.685 --> 01:12:15.955 Okay. 01:12:15.955 --> 01:12:22.005 And I'm looking at his bio, which is like 8, 000 pages long. 01:12:22.385 --> 01:12:28.635 But it says for he was, he was working in the mental health industry 01:12:28.635 --> 01:12:32.285 before getting his PhD in psychology, but for over 25 years, he taught 01:12:32.655 --> 01:12:35.005 continuing medical education courses. 01:12:36.290 --> 01:12:39.570 Lot of work with borderline anger and so on. 01:12:41.060 --> 01:12:42.900 And developed it with his wife, Dr. 01:12:42.900 --> 01:12:43.940 Sue Brown. 01:12:44.520 --> 01:12:48.410 And I have a, I've pulled up a website, but we'll, we'll give all 01:12:48.410 --> 01:12:50.690 these all these resources at the end. 01:12:51.300 --> 01:12:55.910 Do you know of many other equine therapy places using neurofeedback? 01:12:57.435 --> 01:12:58.705 Ellie Williams: I don't actually. 01:12:58.705 --> 01:13:01.095 And it's, it's a conversation that comes up a lot. 01:13:01.265 --> 01:13:04.135 Well, first of all, with, with equine, it's difficult because 01:13:04.135 --> 01:13:05.895 you'd have to do it separately. 01:13:05.955 --> 01:13:06.345 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 01:13:06.565 --> 01:13:09.835 Ellie Williams: But I often have through the different conversations 01:13:09.835 --> 01:13:13.795 and connections with professionals through DDP with, with dietic 01:13:13.795 --> 01:13:15.175 developmental psychotherapy. 01:13:15.505 --> 01:13:19.285 It's a conversation that's often had, there's a lot of interest because 01:13:19.285 --> 01:13:20.925 it's, again, it's such a great. 01:13:21.965 --> 01:13:23.315 Additional support. 01:13:23.475 --> 01:13:26.195 So it's something that's being talked about more. 01:13:26.565 --> 01:13:27.365 And Dr. 01:13:27.365 --> 01:13:31.905 Brown, his brain, remember I said earlier, like, if I don't know it, I want to 01:13:31.915 --> 01:13:36.045 find somebody that does like, like you said, his it's like 8000 pages long. 01:13:36.195 --> 01:13:42.085 He thinks around like, 5 corners from now, like, he is so beyond smart. 01:13:42.205 --> 01:13:42.835 And it was just. 01:13:43.710 --> 01:13:45.312 It was an honor to meet him. 01:13:45.312 --> 01:13:46.299 How did you meet 01:13:46.299 --> 01:13:46.546 Rupert Isaacson: him? 01:13:46.546 --> 01:13:47.287 Where did you 01:13:47.287 --> 01:13:47.781 Ellie Williams: meet him? 01:13:47.781 --> 01:13:51.223 He was a part of the advanced training session that we did. 01:13:52.093 --> 01:13:55.273 And just fascinating, absolutely amazing man. 01:13:55.453 --> 01:14:00.083 And just again, he's created the system. 01:14:00.083 --> 01:14:01.833 That's just absolutely brilliant. 01:14:02.203 --> 01:14:04.763 Rupert Isaacson: So if somebody wants, you know, like, you know, with, with 01:14:04.773 --> 01:14:08.728 horse boy, for example, we have a lot of locations and I'm thinking now as 01:14:08.728 --> 01:14:13.558 we're talking, you know, maybe we should have, you know, a neurofeedback wing 01:14:13.608 --> 01:14:18.028 to what we do, because as we're always saying, you know, so much of the time, 01:14:18.028 --> 01:14:22.008 the person isn't actually on the horse or interacting with the horse at all. 01:14:22.028 --> 01:14:26.948 You know, that, that all this other time when they're at your place where 01:14:26.948 --> 01:14:29.618 they're, they're not doing that, what are we doing with the rest of our time? 01:14:29.618 --> 01:14:31.058 So we of course have movement method and. 01:14:31.543 --> 01:14:34.403 Other things, but I'm beginning to think, okay, yeah, maybe we 01:14:34.403 --> 01:14:36.443 should have a neurofeedback studio. 01:14:36.803 --> 01:14:39.613 What training do you have to go through to do it? 01:14:39.653 --> 01:14:40.623 How much does it cost? 01:14:40.623 --> 01:14:41.593 What do people need to know? 01:14:42.743 --> 01:14:44.533 Ellie Williams: It's actually the cost itself. 01:14:44.563 --> 01:14:47.423 I was just having a conversation with a colleague last night, actually. 01:14:47.523 --> 01:14:49.443 I like, we have a professional system. 01:14:49.563 --> 01:14:55.398 They have family systems that are less expensive and There's a, like 01:14:55.398 --> 01:14:59.858 a level, I think it's a level one training and advanced training. 01:15:00.118 --> 01:15:03.198 It just goes into more detail about the actual system and the 01:15:03.198 --> 01:15:05.708 outcomes and that sort of thing in the, in the advanced training. 01:15:06.118 --> 01:15:08.368 It's probably about now. 01:15:10.183 --> 01:15:15.283 We got our system a few years back, but probably about 15, 000 maybe to 01:15:15.293 --> 01:15:17.443 the system for the professional system 01:15:17.553 --> 01:15:18.403 Rupert Isaacson: for the training. 01:15:18.983 --> 01:15:20.703 Ellie Williams: It wasn't, it wasn't a lot. 01:15:20.773 --> 01:15:22.913 I mean, it was, it was probably a few hundred dollars 01:15:24.013 --> 01:15:25.733 training and it was online. 01:15:26.753 --> 01:15:30.313 You don't have to be a clinician to just hook up. 01:15:30.743 --> 01:15:32.093 You can be a life coach. 01:15:32.093 --> 01:15:34.183 You could be a, you know, a worker. 01:15:34.623 --> 01:15:37.213 Because you're, as long as you're not providing counseling, 01:15:37.213 --> 01:15:38.103 you can see what I mean. 01:15:38.713 --> 01:15:41.973 So it can be used in different, different avenues. 01:15:42.163 --> 01:15:42.323 And 01:15:42.323 --> 01:15:45.173 Rupert Isaacson: someone could indeed just get a machine and use it on themselves. 01:15:45.443 --> 01:15:45.893 Ellie Williams: For sure. 01:15:45.943 --> 01:15:46.333 Yeah. 01:15:46.473 --> 01:15:51.243 So I went down to a pony finals in the U S and I was hooking people up. 01:15:51.653 --> 01:15:55.013 And I had a, one of the customers went and bought their own machine 01:15:55.033 --> 01:15:59.088 because they're like Was absolutely loved it and wanted to keep doing it. 01:15:59.118 --> 01:16:06.138 So now if you have a personal machine, you pay per time that you get hooked up. 01:16:06.448 --> 01:16:10.888 You can like get a bundle of 100 or 10 with the professional system. 01:16:10.908 --> 01:16:12.398 It's unlimited, which is nice. 01:16:13.698 --> 01:16:14.378 And 01:16:15.248 --> 01:16:18.118 Rupert Isaacson: okay so that's the, how long is the training? 01:16:19.828 --> 01:16:22.738 Ellie Williams: It's usually, I think it's like a weekend or two mornings. 01:16:23.118 --> 01:16:24.058 Rupert Isaacson: So it's really doable. 01:16:24.378 --> 01:16:24.678 Yeah, 01:16:24.778 --> 01:16:25.508 Ellie Williams: absolutely. 01:16:25.618 --> 01:16:26.078 Rupert Isaacson: And. 01:16:27.143 --> 01:16:27.813 Insurance? 01:16:28.013 --> 01:16:29.263 Any special insurances? 01:16:29.263 --> 01:16:31.663 What if the machine goes bang while it's on your head or whatever? 01:16:31.663 --> 01:16:31.973 Yeah, 01:16:32.063 --> 01:16:35.723 Ellie Williams: so, well, there's no, there's no it can't hurt you. 01:16:36.383 --> 01:16:39.843 So insurance, like liability, I mean, that is covered under our 01:16:39.843 --> 01:16:42.253 liability, you know, for the company. 01:16:42.593 --> 01:16:46.153 Rupert Isaacson: So, so if someone's already got a therapeutic 01:16:46.153 --> 01:16:48.383 practice, they don't need to take out extra insurance for this? 01:16:48.623 --> 01:16:48.973 Ellie Williams: Correct. 01:16:49.343 --> 01:16:49.723 Correct. 01:16:50.143 --> 01:16:55.373 The we do pay for a membership with the company. 01:16:55.403 --> 01:17:00.103 So then, like, we had a situation where it stopped working because, 01:17:00.103 --> 01:17:01.813 you know, technology stops working. 01:17:02.173 --> 01:17:05.713 They had another system to us within 2 days from Canada. 01:17:05.713 --> 01:17:07.043 It's a Canadian company. 01:17:07.663 --> 01:17:11.943 And in two days, we shipped them ours, they fixed it, they shipped it 01:17:11.943 --> 01:17:14.163 back, I mean, absolutely brilliant. 01:17:14.273 --> 01:17:19.793 They also will go in like the back door and fix it if it's something that they 01:17:19.793 --> 01:17:25.763 can fix in like from remotely, that is, I mean, it's worth every penny. 01:17:26.383 --> 01:17:26.613 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:17:27.623 --> 01:17:27.993 Sold. 01:17:28.043 --> 01:17:30.313 I think I'm going to do it. 01:17:30.313 --> 01:17:30.673 Why not? 01:17:32.113 --> 01:17:32.713 Okay. 01:17:32.823 --> 01:17:36.513 So, we've covered a fair bit of ground here. 01:17:36.853 --> 01:17:39.203 I know you're also working with military. 01:17:40.308 --> 01:17:43.588 How does that work? 01:17:43.588 --> 01:17:45.278 And how, how's it different? 01:17:45.968 --> 01:17:49.438 From the work you're doing with trauma, with other types of trauma, 01:17:49.438 --> 01:17:54.388 or it, does it really effectively, you know, turn out to be the same work? 01:17:54.998 --> 01:17:56.798 Ellie Williams: Well, I think the work of it is the same. 01:17:56.798 --> 01:18:00.498 I think the, the biggest struggle we have is the stigma behind mental 01:18:00.498 --> 01:18:06.883 health treatment with, with getting veterans and military to Sort of buy 01:18:06.883 --> 01:18:11.893 in to the work that we do, which is which is probably the biggest struggle. 01:18:12.273 --> 01:18:17.983 My biggest just my awareness, because I have I have some. 01:18:18.523 --> 01:18:20.883 That's that you have been sort of my, like, sort of 01:18:21.353 --> 01:18:22.833 been with me for a long time. 01:18:23.203 --> 01:18:26.723 But I think the biggest thing is, is that if you are close to 01:18:26.733 --> 01:18:30.403 a base or a big hospital, it's. 01:18:31.473 --> 01:18:33.683 that's where you're going to get the clientele. 01:18:33.953 --> 01:18:39.393 So just from a personal sort of feedback standpoint, it's, it's really difficult 01:18:40.493 --> 01:18:44.003 to get them to come to therapy, you know. 01:18:44.563 --> 01:18:45.343 Even when we do 01:18:45.343 --> 01:18:45.533 Rupert Isaacson: it, 01:18:46.673 --> 01:18:47.613 Ellie Williams: we're still struggle. 01:18:47.743 --> 01:18:48.743 We still struggle. 01:18:48.813 --> 01:18:51.993 Even if we talk about, you know, just doing groups and not 01:18:52.003 --> 01:18:53.743 even, it's not even therapy. 01:18:53.743 --> 01:18:55.043 We're doing just learning. 01:18:55.493 --> 01:18:56.863 It's still really hard. 01:18:57.083 --> 01:18:57.813 If you see what I mean, 01:18:57.813 --> 01:19:00.503 Rupert Isaacson: do you, do you go and knock on the doors of the base and say, 01:19:00.503 --> 01:19:03.043 Hey, we're here or how do they find you? 01:19:04.203 --> 01:19:06.013 Ellie Williams: So we don't have anything close. 01:19:06.363 --> 01:19:09.913 Like our, like we're still like our VA hospitals, like an hour and a half 01:19:09.913 --> 01:19:12.793 away, which makes it really difficult. 01:19:13.278 --> 01:19:15.268 But yes, that's how I started. 01:19:16.568 --> 01:19:22.148 So yeah, it's it's again it's about knocking on the doors, asking them 01:19:22.148 --> 01:19:25.378 three times and hopefully by the fourth time it'll, they'll just say yes. 01:19:26.043 --> 01:19:26.273 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:19:26.273 --> 01:19:26.573 Yeah. 01:19:26.663 --> 01:19:26.933 Yeah. 01:19:27.333 --> 01:19:32.383 I mean, as we, we fallen into it ourselves almost by accident by word of mouth. 01:19:32.383 --> 01:19:34.673 And now, you know, we've had programs with the U. 01:19:34.673 --> 01:19:34.833 S. 01:19:34.833 --> 01:19:37.793 Air Force and the Bundeswehr in Germany, and recently actually with the 01:19:37.793 --> 01:19:39.753 Department of Defense in the Netherlands. 01:19:40.363 --> 01:19:45.283 In Europe, it seems that there really is, And embracing and 01:19:45.283 --> 01:19:48.063 an acceptance particularly when it involves horses and animals. 01:19:48.133 --> 01:19:52.603 I think you must have found this that when you have adults and you're 01:19:52.603 --> 01:19:55.243 pairing them up with the ponies, 01:19:55.853 --> 01:19:56.173 Ellie Williams: yeah, 01:19:56.313 --> 01:19:58.183 Rupert Isaacson: well, they, they, they show up just because they like 01:19:58.183 --> 01:20:01.823 the horses, you know, and that one of the things that we noticed was 01:20:01.823 --> 01:20:04.723 that people will complete and finish. 01:20:05.553 --> 01:20:09.393 A therapy program, really, just because they miss the 01:20:09.393 --> 01:20:10.433 horses and they want to come. 01:20:10.433 --> 01:20:12.883 They don't give a, they don't care about us. 01:20:12.903 --> 01:20:13.413 They just, yeah. 01:20:13.693 --> 01:20:15.023 And that's really how it should be. 01:20:15.113 --> 01:20:16.613 And I think that's one of the powers. 01:20:17.313 --> 01:20:22.143 When you're, is there anything specific about the work that you're doing 01:20:22.803 --> 01:20:25.363 with military or first responders? 01:20:25.363 --> 01:20:29.013 What, how, what's different about your approach when you're doing that? 01:20:29.013 --> 01:20:29.463 I 01:20:30.363 --> 01:20:32.463 Ellie Williams: don't think, I think it's, it's all quite consistent. 01:20:32.503 --> 01:20:37.273 I think the, the biggest piece for me, I mean, we work within the trauma field. 01:20:37.738 --> 01:20:41.078 And I mean, our lives are built on relationships. 01:20:41.458 --> 01:20:48.178 So, whether it's combat trauma or complex trauma, you know, we're 01:20:48.178 --> 01:20:51.958 still gonna use the same skills and it just, it just might, might have a 01:20:51.958 --> 01:20:53.078 little bit of a different audience. 01:20:54.978 --> 01:20:55.438 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:20:55.468 --> 01:21:03.358 If you have, do you deal with guilt of feeling that, Somebody was there 01:21:03.658 --> 01:21:08.958 on the wrong side doing the wrong thing, like that kind of guilt, not 01:21:09.008 --> 01:21:15.888 I took a life or I experienced a traumatic situation or many, but I 01:21:15.888 --> 01:21:20.948 really actually feel that I shouldn't have been there and I was the baddie. 01:21:21.078 --> 01:21:23.048 Do you, do you, do you get, have you dealt with that guilt? 01:21:23.408 --> 01:21:25.248 Ellie Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. 01:21:25.458 --> 01:21:27.458 Rupert Isaacson: And how do you deal with that? 01:21:27.458 --> 01:21:28.218 I'm curious. 01:21:29.633 --> 01:21:33.063 Ellie Williams: I think with a lot of like, except like acceptance and empathy, 01:21:33.163 --> 01:21:37.493 you know, you have to fully understand and unpack where they're coming from, you 01:21:37.493 --> 01:21:42.713 know, and I'm just like, understanding, you know, that perspective, putting, 01:21:42.793 --> 01:21:47.693 putting yourself in their shoes and understanding like, what is that for them. 01:21:48.533 --> 01:21:49.333 That's so important. 01:21:50.123 --> 01:21:55.073 And for them to be heard and to completely unpack it and understand it 01:21:55.143 --> 01:21:58.193 and, you know, they can't change it. 01:21:59.493 --> 01:22:00.953 How can they work through it, you know? 01:22:02.783 --> 01:22:03.953 Rupert Isaacson: How do they work through it? 01:22:03.963 --> 01:22:05.333 Do you tend to observe? 01:22:06.023 --> 01:22:08.563 What's the internal process that you observe? 01:22:09.793 --> 01:22:11.013 Ellie Williams: Well, it's different for everyone. 01:22:11.163 --> 01:22:11.383 Sure. 01:22:11.383 --> 01:22:16.723 You know, I think, I think it's they have to go through, you know, the acceptance. 01:22:16.753 --> 01:22:22.623 They have to go through Yeah, understanding and it's, I think the 01:22:23.223 --> 01:22:31.393 horses meeting them where they are and being able to just, they, they, they 01:22:31.393 --> 01:22:36.033 don't, they don't take any crap, but the horses don't, they, they know, you 01:22:36.033 --> 01:22:40.873 know, like I've had, I've had that's talking about situations in the middle 01:22:40.873 --> 01:22:43.833 of the field and the alpha horse comes and puts his head on his chest. 01:22:44.408 --> 01:22:49.668 You know, from the other side of the field, you know, it's, it's instances 01:22:49.668 --> 01:22:55.538 like that that's different that makes it more profound and more powerful to, 01:22:56.058 --> 01:23:01.838 you know, talking about the loss of a family member, and then having this. 01:23:03.918 --> 01:23:05.408 Profound moment, you know, 01:23:05.758 --> 01:23:06.118 Rupert Isaacson: and 01:23:07.078 --> 01:23:08.938 Ellie Williams: it's, that's what makes this work different. 01:23:09.418 --> 01:23:10.148 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:23:10.148 --> 01:23:11.518 No, I, I couldn't agree more. 01:23:11.518 --> 01:23:13.668 And when you see those things happen, you can't explain them. 01:23:13.668 --> 01:23:16.438 I remember you, you probably remember a horse we had called clue. 01:23:16.878 --> 01:23:17.228 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:23:17.328 --> 01:23:19.818 Rupert Isaacson: Who actually passed away this year finally, but in 01:23:19.818 --> 01:23:21.588 the best way, he very, very old. 01:23:21.628 --> 01:23:25.518 And he just was not getting up one morning in the field as he was good. 01:23:25.518 --> 01:23:26.298 And he was still the boss. 01:23:27.148 --> 01:23:27.438 Mr. 01:23:27.438 --> 01:23:28.648 Grumps, but Mr. 01:23:28.648 --> 01:23:35.833 Grumps I remember once we had a child who had drowned and Was in a pretty 01:23:35.833 --> 01:23:42.063 unreachable vegetative state and you know, they brought him out to us and 01:23:42.063 --> 01:23:45.783 he said, gosh, you know, it's just, I'm punching above my weight here. 01:23:45.793 --> 01:23:49.093 You know, I, I, I truly just don't know what to do, but I 01:23:49.093 --> 01:23:53.173 don't want to turn people away and clue is exactly as you described. 01:23:53.173 --> 01:23:58.823 He came from across the field and he began to lick this child all over his body. 01:23:59.218 --> 01:23:59.668 Wow. 01:23:59.888 --> 01:24:00.068 Yeah. 01:24:00.068 --> 01:24:02.088 And you're looking at it going, what is this? 01:24:02.488 --> 01:24:02.928 Yes. 01:24:03.088 --> 01:24:03.388 Yeah. 01:24:03.908 --> 01:24:07.048 You think, you know, something about horses and you realize you 01:24:07.048 --> 01:24:08.188 absolutely know nothing at all. 01:24:08.268 --> 01:24:09.568 You know, you, you, yes. 01:24:10.078 --> 01:24:18.708 And at the end of that, the child reached out and you know, and 01:24:18.918 --> 01:24:20.008 then clues like, Oh, job done. 01:24:20.178 --> 01:24:24.178 You know, he goes off and just starts grazing and you're standing there 01:24:24.348 --> 01:24:25.988 with your mind completely blown. 01:24:26.278 --> 01:24:26.728 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:24:26.828 --> 01:24:27.168 Yeah. 01:24:27.218 --> 01:24:27.618 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:24:28.798 --> 01:24:29.178 Ellie Williams: it is. 01:24:30.068 --> 01:24:32.708 Well, I think it helps the process, doesn't it? 01:24:32.708 --> 01:24:38.808 I mean, that's a profound story and it just, it can bring, especially I 01:24:38.808 --> 01:24:43.028 think with veterans sometimes the, the disconnect can be so severe and 01:24:43.058 --> 01:24:49.098 it can bring like that grounding that, that connection back to the, to the 01:24:49.098 --> 01:24:51.128 moment and to the, to the present time. 01:24:51.978 --> 01:24:53.748 That can be really important with the horses. 01:24:54.048 --> 01:24:58.298 Like, I've had a lot of female veterans with military sexual trauma. 01:24:59.198 --> 01:25:03.038 And I'll tell you, I've had horses that don't get mouthy, get mouthy. 01:25:03.738 --> 01:25:09.068 And then it's that whole boundary, and you need to say no, and set the the 01:25:09.068 --> 01:25:12.523 rule, and And then, wow, what was that? 01:25:12.953 --> 01:25:14.093 I didn't want him doing that. 01:25:14.103 --> 01:25:15.813 You know, okay. 01:25:16.313 --> 01:25:18.523 How did you say, how did you say no, thank you. 01:25:18.713 --> 01:25:20.013 No, I don't want you to do that. 01:25:20.043 --> 01:25:25.353 So it's it's a great start to that conversation of like, no, 01:25:27.543 --> 01:25:27.863 no. 01:25:29.053 --> 01:25:29.883 Rupert Isaacson: So that's interesting. 01:25:29.883 --> 01:25:32.713 You observe the horse pushing over 01:25:32.713 --> 01:25:33.893 Ellie Williams: the 01:25:34.173 --> 01:25:36.183 Rupert Isaacson: boundary or at least perhaps the boundary and not being there. 01:25:36.183 --> 01:25:39.063 So the horse and then a boundary being set and then the horse respecting. 01:25:39.553 --> 01:25:39.923 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:25:40.768 --> 01:25:41.458 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, amazing. 01:25:41.558 --> 01:25:43.988 Ellie Williams: Or the horse not respecting it immediately because 01:25:44.018 --> 01:25:51.208 sometimes people don't listen to that person now and having to, yeah, that, 01:25:51.228 --> 01:25:56.198 that's been, that's been a that happens a lot with the, the sexual trauma stuff, 01:25:57.318 --> 01:26:04.378 you know, from a, from a standpoint of, you know, from a, yeah, as a victim. 01:26:05.843 --> 01:26:08.533 Rupert Isaacson: Here's a question, you know, men tend not to talk 01:26:08.543 --> 01:26:10.163 about their sexual trauma very much. 01:26:10.163 --> 01:26:13.003 There's more particularly if it's male to male, you know, there's a lot of 01:26:13.003 --> 01:26:17.203 shame attached to it and, you know, compromised manhood and all that. 01:26:17.543 --> 01:26:20.463 Do you, but it does happen, of course, it happens quite a lot in the military. 01:26:20.833 --> 01:26:23.233 Have you worked with that much? 01:26:23.613 --> 01:26:27.593 Ellie Williams: Not as much again, just military wise, just because of 01:26:27.703 --> 01:26:31.573 just our location, we don't have that. 01:26:32.148 --> 01:26:33.448 large of a population. 01:26:33.758 --> 01:26:37.298 I have worked with it with young, younger boys that have 01:26:37.298 --> 01:26:39.128 been victims of sexual assault. 01:26:39.553 --> 01:26:43.963 Sexual abuse in childhood and then working through not only the 01:26:43.983 --> 01:26:47.853 trauma, but their sexuality, their identity, that sort of thing. 01:26:50.013 --> 01:26:54.263 Rupert Isaacson: When it comes to an identity issue that's tied up with that, 01:26:55.113 --> 01:27:03.223 how can you give us an idea about how the work with the horses might play out? 01:27:04.258 --> 01:27:06.708 Ellie Williams: Well, it's interesting, actually, because as of right now, 01:27:06.878 --> 01:27:08.498 the conversation comes up a lot. 01:27:11.038 --> 01:27:14.038 The conversation comes up a lot because we have all male horses on 01:27:14.038 --> 01:27:15.748 the farm, and that's not by choice. 01:27:15.748 --> 01:27:19.108 It just happened that way, whether they were donated, whether they're ours. 01:27:19.578 --> 01:27:25.008 And I swear most, most oftentimes horses will, the male horses will 01:27:25.008 --> 01:27:29.178 drop down with their penis out so they can during session because either 01:27:29.178 --> 01:27:30.448 they have to pee, they're relaxed. 01:27:30.718 --> 01:27:31.168 They're just. 01:27:31.753 --> 01:27:35.603 And it seems to present itself when you're talking about sexual 01:27:35.613 --> 01:27:36.863 assault, that sort of thing. 01:27:37.273 --> 01:27:40.053 So it gives a good conversation starter, because you're 01:27:40.053 --> 01:27:42.143 already talking about anatomy. 01:27:42.283 --> 01:27:45.253 And because, especially younger kids, they'll be like, what's that? 01:27:45.333 --> 01:27:48.303 You know, because they don't necessarily understand. 01:27:48.623 --> 01:27:52.833 But it's, it is, it's every, again, everybody's different. 01:27:52.933 --> 01:27:56.873 And when you talk about, It's a great to start with the horses, which 01:27:56.873 --> 01:28:01.663 talk about their identity and their identities change from client to client. 01:28:01.713 --> 01:28:04.943 They might be a girl, they might be a boy, they might be a cat. 01:28:04.983 --> 01:28:08.273 I mean, it can be whatever, whatever needs to be. 01:28:08.683 --> 01:28:11.553 So it's a good place to start and it's a safer place to start. 01:28:11.803 --> 01:28:15.003 You know, it's safer to talk about them than it is to talk about yourself. 01:28:15.643 --> 01:28:15.813 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:28:15.953 --> 01:28:18.843 And I guess too, when you say that you're dealing with male horses, because 01:28:18.853 --> 01:28:22.913 you're dealing with, with geldings, not with stallions exhibiting, you know. 01:28:23.293 --> 01:28:24.343 Big Stanley behaviors. 01:28:24.933 --> 01:28:28.643 But, and so I guess that's an interesting, do you use that analogy? 01:28:28.643 --> 01:28:32.203 Well, this is, this is, you couldn't say that the horse is gender neutral 01:28:32.223 --> 01:28:34.733 cause they're still male, but they are, their gender has been modified. 01:28:35.133 --> 01:28:35.453 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:28:35.733 --> 01:28:39.523 Rupert Isaacson: That is impacting their behavior. 01:28:40.093 --> 01:28:41.603 Does that come up in conversation? 01:28:41.603 --> 01:28:42.363 And if so, how? 01:28:43.003 --> 01:28:48.763 Ellie Williams: Not, not specifically because it, I try and try and leave 01:28:48.763 --> 01:28:52.053 the educational part, that sort of educational part out, because I want 01:28:52.093 --> 01:28:53.533 to know more from what the clients. 01:28:54.218 --> 01:28:56.688 observing and what, what they related to. 01:28:57.148 --> 01:29:02.828 So for example, um, having a conversation with a client about 01:29:03.508 --> 01:29:08.988 what brought them into foster care and the sexual assault by mom's 01:29:09.748 --> 01:29:11.788 caramel, you know, that sort of thing. 01:29:11.968 --> 01:29:16.258 And then the horse comes, it's, it's around and they drop down 01:29:16.258 --> 01:29:19.398 or so we're having conversations with starting conversations. 01:29:20.023 --> 01:29:24.953 And we have one little miniature horse that came into our care 01:29:24.953 --> 01:29:26.593 because of some serious abuse. 01:29:26.693 --> 01:29:29.983 It was not sexual abuse, but it's a good place to start. 01:29:30.063 --> 01:29:31.263 It's a little bit safer. 01:29:31.913 --> 01:29:36.043 We talk about You know, how he is and what his life is like 01:29:36.043 --> 01:29:38.433 now and how he might see things. 01:29:38.733 --> 01:29:40.393 And he also says, he has tricks. 01:29:40.643 --> 01:29:42.333 So he says yes and no, which is nice. 01:29:42.373 --> 01:29:45.423 So depending on the age of the child, that might come into play. 01:29:45.883 --> 01:29:46.293 So yeah. 01:29:49.643 --> 01:29:55.203 Rupert Isaacson: The work that you do when you go out, okay, you, you, 01:29:55.303 --> 01:29:57.423 how, how big of a team are you now? 01:29:57.423 --> 01:30:03.773 You, you, you've got a relatively compact herd. 01:30:03.773 --> 01:30:06.083 You said two horses, a couple of minis in it. 01:30:06.613 --> 01:30:07.743 cat and a dog sort of thing. 01:30:08.343 --> 01:30:09.883 But it sounds like you've got a lot of clients. 01:30:09.953 --> 01:30:12.933 And so who are your co workers? 01:30:13.273 --> 01:30:14.583 How have you built your practice? 01:30:14.583 --> 01:30:16.023 What does your practice look like? 01:30:16.363 --> 01:30:18.963 And what do you find is an optimal sort of a practice? 01:30:19.633 --> 01:30:22.823 Ellie Williams: Yeah, we, we only have a small farm, so we only have about 01:30:22.823 --> 01:30:24.923 10 acres at the, at the main farm. 01:30:25.203 --> 01:30:28.133 So that would be really can't get much more. 01:30:28.133 --> 01:30:31.263 We're getting a thoroughbred actually next week, which is nice. 01:30:31.613 --> 01:30:34.383 He's going to be off the track and has a new, he'll have a new career. 01:30:34.793 --> 01:30:36.323 Which will be very similar. 01:30:36.333 --> 01:30:41.113 We're going to try and almost document his, his journey, which will be nice. 01:30:43.003 --> 01:30:48.063 We have two therapists on staff now, which is fantastic because I, we had 01:30:48.103 --> 01:30:52.893 multiple therapists and then COVID hit and then I was the only therapist again. 01:30:53.283 --> 01:30:58.103 We have about five equine professionals, six if I count the 01:30:58.103 --> 01:30:59.393 one in Maryland, which is nice. 01:30:59.443 --> 01:31:03.063 So it's probably about a staff of 10 altogether. 01:31:03.173 --> 01:31:04.353 So it's still quite small. 01:31:04.833 --> 01:31:09.823 Um, but it's This is a tricky it's a tricky world to be in. 01:31:09.853 --> 01:31:14.673 I mean, we're probably 1 of the only facilities in the area that strictly. 01:31:15.243 --> 01:31:17.313 It was mostly equine work. 01:31:17.313 --> 01:31:19.483 I mean, I said I do office work as well, but. 01:31:20.213 --> 01:31:21.403 Primarily, I mean, I'll I'll. 01:31:22.273 --> 01:31:25.743 Equine is in our name, so, so, yeah. 01:31:25.743 --> 01:31:26.013 And when you're 01:31:26.013 --> 01:31:28.753 Rupert Isaacson: doing office work, are you, are you often bringing those people 01:31:28.803 --> 01:31:31.583 into the equine work at some point? 01:31:31.593 --> 01:31:32.223 Yeah, I mean, 01:31:32.323 --> 01:31:33.263 Ellie Williams: some, it depends. 01:31:33.263 --> 01:31:37.243 Like, I'll have some office sessions and we have some cats and dogs. 01:31:37.683 --> 01:31:39.213 We've had rabbits in the past. 01:31:39.333 --> 01:31:42.233 So, you know, we're bringing, we still have animals in session. 01:31:42.253 --> 01:31:43.823 That just might be a little different. 01:31:44.323 --> 01:31:49.213 And then I have a kid that has been doing neurofeedback in an office session and 01:31:49.263 --> 01:31:50.753 and she's like, can I, can we do horses? 01:31:51.143 --> 01:31:52.223 I'd like to do some more stuff. 01:31:52.263 --> 01:31:52.883 And I'm like, okay. 01:31:53.533 --> 01:31:54.913 Rupert Isaacson: So how 01:31:54.913 --> 01:31:55.133 Ellie Williams: does the 01:31:55.133 --> 01:31:55.673 Rupert Isaacson: cat help? 01:31:57.153 --> 01:31:58.263 Ellie Williams: I love the cat. 01:31:58.563 --> 01:32:06.163 So our cat, his name is Mars and he has his own, he grew up in a very violent, not 01:32:06.553 --> 01:32:12.183 violent as in he was hurt, but it was sort of lots of play fighting and aggression. 01:32:12.183 --> 01:32:13.413 And so. 01:32:14.503 --> 01:32:18.493 It's great in a way because a lot of the kids that we have also grew up in that 01:32:18.523 --> 01:32:23.003 environment and then when they interact, they have to learn how to respect and. 01:32:23.803 --> 01:32:25.793 relax and not hurt each other. 01:32:25.903 --> 01:32:31.243 So it's, it's a win win when, when Mars doesn't like bring 01:32:31.243 --> 01:32:32.303 out his claws, you know? 01:32:33.173 --> 01:32:33.633 Rupert Isaacson: So, yeah. 01:32:33.633 --> 01:32:35.183 So how does, how does Mars help with that? 01:32:36.113 --> 01:32:36.653 Ellie Williams: He does. 01:32:36.653 --> 01:32:40.823 So it's nice because it's an education of like, not only does it happen with people, 01:32:40.953 --> 01:32:45.353 it can happen with animals, that, that there can be some aggressive behaviors. 01:32:45.593 --> 01:32:46.593 So Mars would, would 01:32:46.593 --> 01:32:48.163 Rupert Isaacson: like hiss and scratch and say, oy. 01:32:48.678 --> 01:32:49.048 Yep. 01:32:49.418 --> 01:32:49.748 Yep. 01:32:50.318 --> 01:32:52.558 Ellie Williams: He likes his head scratched, but if you touch his 01:32:52.558 --> 01:32:58.698 back, which I'm sure has been an area of unsafe for him, that yeah, 01:32:58.738 --> 01:33:00.168 he'll, he'll say no, thank you. 01:33:00.168 --> 01:33:04.658 And now he's, he's originally he would like literally like 01:33:04.668 --> 01:33:06.528 latch onto you and like bite you. 01:33:07.078 --> 01:33:10.348 We would try really hard to not have him sort of interact with the 01:33:10.348 --> 01:33:11.848 clients because it wasn't safe. 01:33:12.363 --> 01:33:16.673 But over time he's, yeah, becoming really mellow and lovely and nibbles a 01:33:16.673 --> 01:33:18.873 little bit, but not, not like he used to. 01:33:18.913 --> 01:33:21.813 And it's a, it's a great story for kids to see. 01:33:22.273 --> 01:33:25.723 Even the cat can, can learn how to do something different. 01:33:26.163 --> 01:33:28.163 Rupert Isaacson: Right, yeah, so I guess it makes an analogy. 01:33:28.593 --> 01:33:28.903 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:33:28.953 --> 01:33:30.293 Rupert Isaacson: And the dogs, how do you use them? 01:33:30.773 --> 01:33:31.143 Ellie Williams: Ah! 01:33:31.518 --> 01:33:35.948 So we have a Corgi, her name is Tinka, and she is the, the friendliest dog 01:33:35.988 --> 01:33:41.978 ever, and she interacts, she does some really nice like she'll push the bull 01:33:42.348 --> 01:33:46.818 towards the client, she loves to play really, she's very interactive, so 01:33:46.838 --> 01:33:51.038 again, just like we would have with the horses in session, very interactive. 01:33:51.438 --> 01:33:54.218 And she genuinely just loves people. 01:33:54.358 --> 01:33:57.378 So there's this happiness and there's joy that she can bring 01:33:57.378 --> 01:33:59.298 to session which is good as well. 01:33:59.838 --> 01:34:00.088 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:34:00.088 --> 01:34:03.038 Joy, I think is, is, is, is the key here. 01:34:03.108 --> 01:34:08.018 I think if, if any of us were to really try to define what it is we try to 01:34:08.018 --> 01:34:10.488 do, it's that we try to bring joy. 01:34:10.538 --> 01:34:10.798 Right. 01:34:10.858 --> 01:34:13.898 I mean that we, you know, people are, there is suffering and what 01:34:13.918 --> 01:34:15.208 is the opposite of suffering? 01:34:15.208 --> 01:34:16.758 Suffering, the opposite of suffering is joy. 01:34:17.438 --> 01:34:17.468 Ellie Williams: Right. 01:34:17.488 --> 01:34:22.268 Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, I've observed, I think, more times than I can count, 01:34:22.318 --> 01:34:25.348 a dog often being really key with that. 01:34:25.768 --> 01:34:26.028 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:34:26.038 --> 01:34:26.108 Because 01:34:26.108 --> 01:34:29.778 Rupert Isaacson: they can access that, like, so immediately despite whatever 01:34:29.808 --> 01:34:31.498 other emotional stuff is going on. 01:34:31.498 --> 01:34:33.628 They're like, I am going to be joyful right now because 01:34:33.628 --> 01:34:34.638 there's a ball in front of me. 01:34:34.638 --> 01:34:38.838 And to sort of, as an analogy, that, you know, that is possible. 01:34:39.378 --> 01:34:42.728 You know, you can have stuff going on in your life, but hey, if 01:34:42.728 --> 01:34:43.778 someone chucks a ball, it's fun. 01:34:44.228 --> 01:34:44.533 Yeah. 01:34:45.303 --> 01:34:48.603 I think that's often an underutilized tool. 01:34:49.143 --> 01:34:49.503 Yeah. 01:34:49.953 --> 01:34:56.513 The, the absolute commitment to joyful mood that dogs 01:34:56.573 --> 01:34:57.943 can, can have and can bring. 01:34:58.613 --> 01:34:59.093 Okay. 01:34:59.093 --> 01:35:04.033 Well, I think there's going to be people that might want to get in touch with 01:35:04.033 --> 01:35:11.163 you because you mentor people in how to get going with this type of thing. 01:35:11.583 --> 01:35:12.113 Absolutely. 01:35:12.143 --> 01:35:13.903 People reach you, Ellie. 01:35:14.638 --> 01:35:20.448 Ellie Williams: So, our website is www e do equity team.org, 01:35:20.748 --> 01:35:24.018 which is E-Q-U-I-T-E-A-M, 01:35:24.458 --> 01:35:27.518 Rupert Isaacson: equity team dot O-R-G-O-R-G. 01:35:27.728 --> 01:35:27.878 Ellie Williams: Yep. 01:35:28.498 --> 01:35:32.608 And that would basically give you all the connections of what, 01:35:32.638 --> 01:35:35.518 it'll give my number and email. 01:35:35.558 --> 01:35:37.438 So website is the way to go. 01:35:37.978 --> 01:35:38.358 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:35:38.818 --> 01:35:43.858 And then just again, talk us through one by one, each of those, these 01:35:43.858 --> 01:35:48.418 modalities you're using, just so people can write them down now at the end. 01:35:49.268 --> 01:35:53.798 Ellie Williams: So we use the EGALA model, which is the Equine Assisted Growth and 01:35:53.798 --> 01:35:56.228 Learning Association Equine Therapy Model. 01:35:56.773 --> 01:36:00.733 I'm a practitioner with Diadic Developmental Psychotherapy. 01:36:01.998 --> 01:36:02.398 Rupert Isaacson: DDP 01:36:02.578 --> 01:36:03.558 Ellie Williams: and Huh? 01:36:04.198 --> 01:36:05.439 Rupert Isaacson: D-D-P-D-D-P. 01:36:05.893 --> 01:36:06.193 Ellie Williams: Yeah. 01:36:06.763 --> 01:36:14.778 I am a practitioner for Horse Boy, and I do neuro optimal neurofeedback training, 01:36:15.103 --> 01:36:17.983 Rupert Isaacson: neuro optimal neurofeedback, and people can 01:36:18.433 --> 01:36:20.323 traps if you, if you're looking on. 01:36:20.588 --> 01:36:21.948 Ellie's website, the equity team. 01:36:22.158 --> 01:36:22.438 org. 01:36:22.498 --> 01:36:25.108 There's a lot of information on there on it. 01:36:25.758 --> 01:36:29.288 And please do reach out to her as a mentor. 01:36:29.318 --> 01:36:32.898 I've watched over the years, Ellie bill. 01:36:33.278 --> 01:36:34.488 And she was awesome. 01:36:34.578 --> 01:36:36.718 I remember when we first met you, but I've just seen you build it and 01:36:36.728 --> 01:36:39.658 build it and build it and go from strength to strength and survive 01:36:39.678 --> 01:36:42.298 COVID and, you know, keep serving. 01:36:42.648 --> 01:36:43.108 Ellie Williams: Right. 01:36:43.188 --> 01:36:43.508 Yeah. 01:36:43.828 --> 01:36:44.528 Rupert Isaacson: So hats off. 01:36:44.948 --> 01:36:45.468 Ellie Williams: Thank you. 01:36:45.558 --> 01:36:46.588 Rupert Isaacson: Easy ride. 01:36:46.588 --> 01:36:46.938 I know. 01:36:47.978 --> 01:36:48.138 Yeah. 01:36:53.108 --> 01:36:59.478 If you had any advice, last words, advice for someone who's just starting 01:36:59.478 --> 01:37:04.078 out in this field, because I think this is what people like me, I don't 01:37:04.078 --> 01:37:05.428 feel like a veteran in the field. 01:37:05.428 --> 01:37:08.678 I feel like the same, you know, newcomer that I always was, but people 01:37:08.768 --> 01:37:13.128 who've been at it for a while now, what do you, what's your advice? 01:37:13.168 --> 01:37:17.578 What's your, what would you say to people now that want to 01:37:17.648 --> 01:37:18.868 get into this professionally? 01:37:19.178 --> 01:37:24.028 Ellie Williams: I think, I think to, to more to simplify it is just don't give up, 01:37:24.448 --> 01:37:30.218 you know, find your passion and connect with people that can, if you don't know 01:37:30.308 --> 01:37:31.968 it, connect with somebody that does. 01:37:32.428 --> 01:37:33.988 Rupert Isaacson: Look for mentorship. 01:37:33.988 --> 01:37:34.498 Ellie Williams: That's really important. 01:37:34.498 --> 01:37:34.668 All 01:37:37.048 --> 01:37:37.528 Rupert Isaacson: right. 01:37:37.658 --> 01:37:39.818 Well, listen, Ellie, it's been, it's been a delight. 01:37:39.838 --> 01:37:42.368 Thank you so much for coming and talking to us. 01:37:42.668 --> 01:37:43.308 Ellie Williams: I know. 01:37:43.828 --> 01:37:43.858 Rupert Isaacson: It's 01:37:43.858 --> 01:37:44.598 Ellie Williams: been wonderful. 01:37:44.618 --> 01:37:44.993 Thank you so much. 01:37:44.993 --> 01:37:45.138 Oh, and 01:37:45.138 --> 01:37:47.758 Rupert Isaacson: remind us again, there's this DDP conference in 01:37:47.768 --> 01:37:49.328 Nottingham in the UK, right? 01:37:49.328 --> 01:37:49.828 Yes. 01:37:49.828 --> 01:37:49.878 Ellie Williams: Yes. 01:37:50.058 --> 01:37:53.468 And I think it's the 22nd and 23rd of September. 01:37:53.818 --> 01:37:54.228 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:37:55.298 --> 01:37:57.878 So DDP conference, people can type that in. 01:37:58.398 --> 01:38:02.808 Ellie Williams: It's the, hold on, 23rd and 24th. 01:38:02.878 --> 01:38:04.228 It's the Monday and Tuesday. 01:38:05.078 --> 01:38:05.328 Yep. 01:38:05.398 --> 01:38:06.538 Rupert Isaacson: And where in Nottingham is it? 01:38:06.548 --> 01:38:07.758 Is it a college or something? 01:38:07.758 --> 01:38:08.148 It's at 01:38:08.618 --> 01:38:09.738 Ellie Williams: the conference centre. 01:38:10.138 --> 01:38:10.418 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:38:10.838 --> 01:38:12.848 Ellie Williams: East Midlands Conference Centre, I think. 01:38:12.848 --> 01:38:14.108 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 01:38:14.108 --> 01:38:16.188 Well, we've got a hospital place not far from there, so I'm going 01:38:16.188 --> 01:38:19.048 to see if I can, if I can connect. 01:38:19.388 --> 01:38:20.228 Ellie Williams: Yeah, brilliant. 01:38:20.288 --> 01:38:21.978 It's going to be absolutely amazing. 01:38:22.018 --> 01:38:23.398 It's going to be, I'm excited. 01:38:23.398 --> 01:38:26.678 It's been a lot of thought and effort going into it and the the 01:38:26.688 --> 01:38:29.448 breakdown of all the presentations that will be coming out shortly. 01:38:30.258 --> 01:38:32.028 Rupert Isaacson: There's a lot of people in the UK doing DDP. 01:38:32.823 --> 01:38:34.913 Ellie Williams: Yes, huge contingent in the UK. 01:38:34.913 --> 01:38:35.243 Okay, 01:38:35.743 --> 01:38:36.963 Rupert Isaacson: I'm going to look into this more. 01:38:37.323 --> 01:38:38.373 Thank you for joining me on to it. 01:38:38.373 --> 01:38:38.973 I had no idea. 01:38:39.803 --> 01:38:40.943 That's why I do this so I can learn. 01:38:40.943 --> 01:38:41.353 Yes. 01:38:41.823 --> 01:38:42.023 Yeah. 01:38:42.063 --> 01:38:42.513 Ellie Williams: Brilliant. 01:38:42.523 --> 01:38:43.513 Thank you so much. 01:38:43.623 --> 01:38:44.403 Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure. 01:38:44.593 --> 01:38:46.143 Ellie Williams: Fantastic to catch up with you Ruth. 01:38:46.423 --> 01:38:47.113 Rupert Isaacson: Likewise. 01:38:47.143 --> 01:38:47.413 All right. 01:38:47.413 --> 01:38:49.563 Well, I hope it won't be too long before I see you. 01:38:50.071 --> 01:38:51.181 thank you for joining us. 01:38:51.211 --> 01:38:53.041 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:38:53.279 --> 01:38:58.319 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:38:58.319 --> 01:39:03.509 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:39:04.217 --> 01:39:08.865 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:39:08.865 --> 01:39:10.875 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:39:11.202 --> 01:39:14.952 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:39:14.952 --> 01:39:18.192 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:39:18.491 --> 01:39:22.541 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:39:22.541 --> 01:39:24.461 bring you and your horse joy. 01:39:24.997 --> 01:39:29.557 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:39:29.887 --> 01:39:30.817 See you on the next show. 01:39:31.230 --> 01:39:33.920 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.