Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Here on Equine Assisted World.
We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
established in the equine assisted field.
This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
I've got Ellie Williams with me.
I've known Ellie for a while.
She runs a pretty Rad gig out in Pennsylvania on the Pennsylvania,
Maryland bordered borders, but she's actually a Brit.
Who's a long term resident resident in the USA.
So you're going to hear a bit of a hybrid accent here, but she does very, very,
very interesting work in trauma in you know, equine assisted psychotherapy
of various kinds and in neurofeedback.
And these are areas which aren't necessarily known so well within
the equine assisted world.
And for that reason, I wanted Ellie to come on and educate us a little bit about
them particularly in the work with trauma, particularly in the work with attachment
disorders and that sort of thing.
There's a lot we can learn.
It goes, as we all know, a lot further than just.
giving kids pony rides.
But we've all been at that point where people say, well, you're
just giving kids pony rides.
So I'm gonna turn it over to you, Ellie.
Can you please tell us what you do?
Who are you and what are you doing?
Why do you do it?
Ellie Williams: Well, hopefully we've got a bit of a few
minutes to answer that question.
So Ellie Williams, executive director of equity and support services.
I work in Dallas down Pennsylvania and also in Hunt Valley, Maryland.
And I have been doing this work started with the equine assistive work back
in 2006 going on 18 years of just the journey of where the need is.
We work a lot with children and youth in the foster care system,
adoptive clientele as well.
Lots of trauma, lots of abuse and neglect.
In my journey, I started with the Agala model and quite assisted work.
And then I found you, which is amazing because I then work with
our autistic clients within the Horsepoint model and method.
And it's a great hybrid.
I still have some great clients and we had the wonderful Temple Grandin at our
farm many years back and learned a lot from you and her in that area as well.
And Through my journey, I've been doing a lot with trauma and attachment issues.
Children in the foster care system have gone through a lot and they,
they just need, they don't understand how to have healthy attachments.
So I decided to go and become trained.
Our local attachment therapist in the area just left.
So I was like, well, better me.
I'll, I'll go do it.
and fell in love with the work.
I connected with dyadic developmental psychotherapy.
Dr.
Daniel Hughes is the creator and he actually lived about an hour, just over
an hour from me, was able to study under him for about two and a half years.
And currently on their board of directors as their treasurer, I think by force,
just because I was the Northeast U.
S.
that I became treasurer, but amazing group of people.
And doing the work with, as you said, attachment and trauma
the developmental trauma stuff.
And one of the other wonderful aspects of the work that we do is we provide
neuro, neurofeedback services using the neuro optimal neurofeedback system.
And I do that when, when I have an office session, I will hook a client up
and have a office therapy session with a cat or a dog, because there's always
animals around in in the work that we do.
And that's, I call it my magic machine.
It balances the brain and it helps clients open up and go to a deeper
level when we're having therapy.
So, lots of things that we're doing in just our small organization in the
Northeast Pennsylvania, Maryland area.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, you're a Brit, you're a horsey Brit.
We also connected you and I through the Hunt World.
What got you a horsey Brit?
Over to Pennsylvania.
Why does a horsey Brit fall in love with attachment disorders and trauma?
What's the story?
Ellie Williams: So I think I think you just follow.
I don't know.
It's probably a long winding road.
Really?
We moved to the US because my dad's job brought us here.
And you know, there were a lot of things that happened in my life that
led me to work for children's services.
I worked there for about 10 years.
And there just wasn't great services, you know, there was sort of the traditional
therapies and it was sort of before, I mean, there was some play therapy
and I'm not saying they're not great, they are but I wanted something that
I fell in love with and my love of horses and my love of helping people was
just, oh, it was just the perfect fit.
Rupert Isaacson: Trauma, though, and attachment disorders it's a rather
specialist road because, you know, one's dealing with really intense
and heightened emotional situations.
It's not everybody's cup of tea.
There can be conflict, there can be manipulation, one can feel, you
know, manipulated by clients even.
It's, it's, it's, it's complex.
Ellie Williams: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Anyone who works in the sort of psychotherapy field
acknowledges that it's it's tricky.
What was it about that that made you think, yes, actually,
this is my professional home?
Ellie Williams: I think, I think when you work with horses, I always,
I've always worked with young horses.
I love training young horses and figuring them out and doing a lot of.
You know, putting the time in and helping them get to know what they need
to be, you know, what they need to do and jumping and dressage and flat work.
And, and it's the same with people.
I just, I find that I have this curiosity and I want to help them live in a
world without anger and violence and no power struggles and need for control.
And it's the parallel is just beautiful.
I mean, horses as a third animal, that's.
That's what we help them, you know, when we interact with them, it's very
similar than the kids that, that I work with as well and families as well.
Rupert Isaacson: So I think a lot of us see that parallel between working
particularly with young horses and also a lot of us who work with donated
horses, you know, we get the horses with all the stories that they have
in their bodies and in their minds and the rehab is very much part of this.
I think a lot of people can relate.
However, not everybody.
Understands the terminology and the world of attachment, talk us through it.
What is an attachment disorder?
Ellie Williams: So basically between the age of one and three as a human being,
we need to have a healthy attachment or build a healthy attachment to our
caregiver, whoever that might be.
And most of the time it's mom and dad, or it's just mom or it's just
dad, or sometimes it's granny, you know, whoever that caregiver is.
And when you live in a chaotic, violent drug and alcohol, lots of things that
are unhealthy, you're learning not, well, there's just unhealthy connections.
You're not able to have a healthy attachment.
So when you have an unhealthy attachment, it's now disorganized.
And You don't know, you know, it's kind of like when you have the child say,
look, mommy, I've made this for you.
And they go, Oh yes, I'm so proud.
That's amazing.
And you have this just nurture and this pride.
that I have so many children that don't know what that is.
You know, they, they know the, Hey, mommy, I did this for you.
And it's like, get out of here.
You're worthless.
You know, so they don't have that connection.
They don't feel connected.
And then, then they don't know how to connect.
And that's where the unhealthy attachment and disorganized attachment comes in.
Rupert Isaacson: What are the usual negative outcomes of that?
What do we see?
Why do we need to be paying attention to this?
Ellie Williams: So as kids get older, they're going to have
difficulty in their peer relations.
They're going to struggle socially.
They're going to try and control everything.
They'll power struggle.
Oh, that just.
You know, they know how to power struggle, they know how to push buttons,
they know how to make you angry, and, because that's what they've learned,
they've learned through whether it's a volatile, violent environment, that they
are now, that's, that works for them.
They don't know what calm and nurture and loving is, they just know the chaos.
Rupert Isaacson: And what, why did they find that that works for them?
What, what, when they, when they start mirroring those
behaviors, what do they get?
Ellie Williams: They get attention.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
They get
Ellie Williams: attention that they never had.
And they go, Oh, that's kind of nice.
I like that attention, even though it's, you need to sit down or you're
going to the principal's office.
It fills a void that they had, they never experienced.
And then our job is to then help them learn how to fill that void
differently, which is really difficult.
Rupert Isaacson: And does it become, would you say, dopamine
related, so then it becomes like a seek and find behavior, right?
Ellie Williams: Yeah, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, interesting.
So if somebody has an attachment disorder what are the steps to ameliorate?
Ellie Williams: It's a long journey.
It's a really long journey and I, I really enjoy working with
kiddos as young as possible.
You know, if I have teenagers that have had such a dysregulated life throughout
their, you know, you know, until they're teenagers, it's the ingrained
behavior is it's so it's solidified.
It's really hard for them to sort of go back and relearn some healthier behaviors.
But it really, I love working with kids when they're 4, 3, 4, 5 years
old, because it's about helping them understand what they do now, and
relating it back to their developmental trauma, and being able to then help
them, and like, educate them through psychoeducation of what they need to do.
Wow, I see that you do this.
I've noticed that this happens when, when somebody da, da, da, da.
Oh, I wonder if that's when, kind of like when you were little and,
and mummy and daddy ignored you, you know, and, and how that can connect.
Yeah.
And it's, Then, being able to help them restructure themselves and
where we, through the DDP did on into psychotherapy, we have a model
called PACE, which is being playful, accepting, furious, and empathic.
And if you are peaceful, and whether it's as a clinician, myself, a parent,
a caregiver, a school personnel, if you can implement those four things into a
child's life or a client's life, it helps them understand, because sometimes, so
if, if if one individual, say I have a client that's really angry, if I'm being
silly and playful, sometimes they're then not angry, sometimes doing a silly walk.
Because they don't wanna go back to the car and they power start struggling and
they, they don't want the session to end.
Doing a silly walk to go back to the car is just works it, it snaps them
outta the of that power struggle.
And I'm gonna be accepting of where they are all the time.
I'm gonna accept that they're in this need for, I don't want to leave.
I feel safe.
I'm having a good time.
And then I'm gonna be curious 'cause I wanna know more about that.
But I'm going to have empathy because they're in that place.
Does that make sense?
Rupert Isaacson: It does.
Do you ever find this can happen I'm a great believer in humor.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I also know that humor can sometimes with someone
who's power struggly, be taken as a way to have yet more power struggle.
When you're humorous and playful and then a kid or a client takes that and reacts
even more negatively, what do you do?
Ellie Williams: I just, you just think on your feet, you know, you're
like, well, okay, that, that didn't work that, that sort of amplified.
I might step away.
I might create some space.
The great thing about working with the animals, they sort
of meet them where they are.
So if I have a kid that's power struggling and.
They're trying to get the horse from back into the stables and the horse is wanting
to eat the grass and now the horse is the power struggle because they're trying to
get the horse So then I might be like, man, have they been talking to you?
That was the kind of like what we were doing just a minute ago.
We were power struggling and now look, you're power struggling with that one.
So it just kind of lightening it up.
And if you're smiling and you're happy, you can't be angry.
So, you know, being able to shift the focus is so important.
So, so important.
Rupert Isaacson: When you've got these kids that are coming to you
so young, who's bringing them?
Ellie Williams: Most of the time, foster parents, parents, caregivers,
Sometimes I'll have drivers.
Sometimes I don't have the parental caregiver.
I really do.
I mean, I asked for it, you know, if I can have it across because
that way I can check in with them at the beginning of session.
They can be in session.
I know that's something that you always talked about having them
in session as much as possible.
And if not, just being able to have that contact, what's going
well, where are the struggles.
That sort of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's okay.
So foster, the foster system.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: We know that equine assisted therapies are not cheap.
Anything with a horse is not cheap.
How are they affording to come to you?
Ellie Williams: So I do, I have contracts with our local agencies, our government
agencies, which took a long time to Not only get the contract, it took us
a few years to get the contract, but it took us probably another eight years to
get paid to the point where we needed to get paid, if you see what I mean.
Yeah.
But also then having to do a lot of fundraising and grant writing and
requests of, you know, connecting with people in our community that would
support us to cover the difference.
The other aspect, we do private pay, we have a sliding scale.
We don't like to turn anyone away if we don't have to.
So we try really hard to get them the funding they need.
Rupert Isaacson: And so you, you bootstrapped it originally.
You, you looked around for support in your community.
You created a non profit.
You went about it that way.
When you, when you made the shift to becoming a non profit,
a funded provider from the state.
Can you, there's a lot of people who will be listening to this, will be thinking,
you know, I'm at the start of my career.
I, I don't quite know how one goes about that stuff.
In a nutshell, what's the red tape process for that?
Ellie Williams: I think it's, it's networking, finding, finding people within
your community, different organizations, whether it's rotary, whether it's.
You know, young, young entrepreneur group, you know, talk to
as many people as possible.
And I, I say so often, I don't know everything.
And if I don't know something that I need to know, I'm going to find somebody
that does, you know, and it's, it's so important that face to face and the
handshake and the conversation again.
And being to go, you know, that was, I was lucky because I
actually worked in that system.
So I had a lot of contacts already.
Rupert Isaacson: You were already a therapist.
Ellie Williams: So I wasn't a therapist at that point.
I worked in the child welfare system as a, as a worker.
I was actually one of the managers in our local office.
So I knew people that I needed to talk to.
I already had that step ahead.
But if you're going out there and you're going, Oh, I want to work within
whether it's the mental health or it's drug and alcohol or it's child
welfare, go bang on the doors, go set an appointment, give them a call,
walk on in, because it's important.
Like I'm, this is what I'd like to provide.
How can I go about getting, you know, getting on your.
On your docket, so to speak, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's funny.
I'm a great believer that people say no three times usually.
And then the fourth time they tend to say yes, just to shut
you up and make you go away.
And I'm always surprised that people fall at those fences.
It's like, dude, they're going to say no at first.
That's their job in a way.
To see if you're serious about it.
And did you find that, that you had to go back 2, 3, 4 times?
Ellie Williams: Yeah, I think the biggest, the biggest thing is, is
asking them what their needs are.
You know, this is what I have.
Does it fall within the need that you have?
Our biggest thing is we were, We didn't have the outcomes that they needed, like,
they're like, well, we like the sound of what you're doing, but does it work?
Is it, you know, will it produce the outcomes that we want?
So we worked for about two and a half years.
To get those numbers and to get those statistics to go back in and say, we're
maintaining over an 85 percent success rate of clients completing treatment.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, how did you prove that when without
like a peer reviewed study?
Because people could say, well, that's just anecdotal.
You know, why should we believe you?
Ellie Williams: So basically, we just do, I mean, you're right.
It's not like an in depth study but we use outcome measures that are valid through
the, you know, we have different ones.
We use the youth outcome questionnaire and we use the child questionnaire,
Rupert Isaacson: youth
Ellie Williams: outcome questionnaire.
Rupert Isaacson: And it's something people should be aware of.
Ellie Williams: Yep.
And it's a pretest and a post test.
So it basically gives you a snapshot of how the client feels they're doing
before treatment and after treatment.
And then we have a child and adolescent functional assessment scale, also
known as a campus, and that's an outcome measure that I complete
and I completed every 3 months.
To be able to sort of see how the progress is, is coming along.
Rupert Isaacson: And are these things that people can effectively
download off the internet?
Ellie Williams: The outcome questionnaire is, is something that
it's a small fee for, to be able to use that outcome method the tool.
With the CAPAS, it was a more in depth process.
I had to study it pass a test, knowing that I know how to, to utilize the model.
It's more in depth.
They have a, an annual fee, which isn't, isn't huge.
But it's a very good measure.
Very good measure.
Rupert Isaacson: Who controls that?
What's the governing body for that?
Ellie Williams: Well, off the top of my head, I can't remember, but
there's, they have a few different outcome measures that they, this one
governing body has, and I can't remember.
I have like the JIF and the CAFAS and a couple of others as well.
But
Rupert Isaacson: these are, these are recognised by Local health authorities.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
This is good to know because this is the sort of thing I didn't know
when I was starting out, you know, I was just bloke in a field with my
kid, you know, wondering what to do.
And this, I still don't know, you know, so I'm always, I'm always intrigued to know
what are the, If you like official steps that people can take and should take.
Ellie Williams: Well, and it's nice.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
Rupert Isaacson: No, you go ahead.
Ellie Williams: It's nice because I'm working in the child welfare system.
Often I will be subpoenaed for court.
There's obviously.
Different things that I have to be careful about, but we're
working with lawyers and judges.
You have to have that specific information and being able to have outcome measures.
It can be very helpful, you know, when you're up there to support a
client that you're in court for.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you provide trainings, advice, mentorship for people
that are wanting to start off in this?
Because it's, it's, it's, you know, it's interesting.
You're very clear about how to navigate this.
And I'm very used to hearing people be actually much less clear and more wooly.
So I think this is valuable information.
Do you, do you do that sort of service for people that want to
get going in this profession?
Ellie Williams: I have.
Yes.
It's one of those things when I started, we again, went to all the
people that you could learn from.
I do charge a fee.
But it's something that I'm always willing to, to help somebody get further in this
field because we all need to be doing it.
It's, it's amazing work.
So.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
So people can contact you.
Correct.
Okay.
So at the end listeners, we're going to obviously have contact for Ellie.
So if you've got these questions and you want to engage her services to help her
light the way through Fangorn Forest.
and Mirkwood and the Mists and the Mines of Moria she will
help you with the Balrogs.
Alright, I've got some questions about some of the methodologies you use
because they're quite intriguing to me.
You use the Igala model and that one I'm familiar with and Lynn has been on this
podcast and we're all great fans of Lynn.
Both of the Igala and the Horses for Mental Health stuff
she's doing now and so on.
I'd like to ask you pick your brain a little bit about a couple of the other.
Yeah.
things and I'm going to look at your website as I'm doing so I get the
names right because these things one can often get the names wrong.
So
our transformative DDP services is
something that you orient people towards.
What is a DDP?
So
Ellie Williams: that's what I was talking about a little bit earlier with
the dyadic developmental psychotherapy
Rupert Isaacson: dyadic.
Yeah, that's a word you don't hear every day when I go to fill my car up
with gas the bloke doesn't say would you like some dyadic or would you like
some diesel or, you know, when I'm trying to, you know, walking my dog
I'm saying how's your dyadic today.
So what's dyadic me.
Ellie Williams: But it's more about the dyad, isn't it?
The, the parent child, the connection with another.
So, I mean, in theory it could be a dyad,
Rupert Isaacson: meaning a two way relationship.
Ellie Williams: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Ellie Williams: We prefer in the work that we do to have a parent
child or, you know, have that dyad.
If necessary, we need to have, I'm, I can be the other parts of that diet.
I didn't see what I mean, like, cause it would be me and a client.
or preferably the client and a caregiver.
Rupert Isaacson: And you are facilitating between the dyad.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Your piggy in the middle.
How does it work to talk us through it?
Ellie Williams: So it just I think the biggest thing is, is when
we first start with a client, I guess I'll start at the beginning.
I really need to know more about the caregiver, whether it's a foster parent,
whether it's a biological parent, adopted parent, whoever that might be.
I need to know, and they talk in DDP, they talk about.
Meeting with them separately first and getting to know them and learning
about their own attachment history and really learning and helping
them because if you're asking them to do something very different.
from their original parenting style, it's going to be a little bit tricky.
So it's basically building that relationship between you and the
caregiver first, and then bringing the child in to work with, within that
dyad, like you were talking about.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so what would be the standard tools that you'd use?
And how's the horse come in?
Ellie Williams: Well, the great thing is, is that so as of right now, we have three
miniature horses, two horses, and a pony.
And we'll, I'll just give an example.
I think it's great when you can give an example rather than
just talking in generalities.
I have a family.
I work with a young boy and have multiple siblings.
So we have three miniature horses that are now been named.
The siblings and they sort of through discussion like, well, which one's
this one, you know, and, well, that one's the one that stares off into
the corner and kind of withdraw.
So that's that that kid.
That's kid a.
And the one that's up in everyone's business and trying to eat your clothes.
Well, that's.
Child B, and oh, and the cat, that's child C, because he is in everybody's
business, and he's also typically a little, you know, so we're using through
metaphor, and being able to connect with the animals through that way and
then we will, very much like the Agala model, we will throw out, whether
it's, you know, creating something, or observing relationships or interactions.
And then through discussion and processing, being able to take those
experiences from the client, observing the horses and the interactions, and
then connecting it to their own life.
Rupert Isaacson: So what happens when you get a kid or a
client saying don't be stupid.
That's not my dad.
That's a cat You know, why should you know, that's just a cat.
You know, this is stupid.
Well, yeah How do you how do you navigate that?
Ellie Williams: I almost went like so I was almost like oh and then I
was like Well, I'm not in session.
So I'll stop um So, it is, it is hard, it is hard to sometimes see that
cat, you know, it is a cat, and it's hard to see, like, you know, because
they are very literal, aren't they?
Yeah.
And it is, and so I'll have empathy for them, but they're like screw
this, I don't, I don't, I won't do that, that's not Right, and there can
Rupert Isaacson: be a need to challenge, right?
They need you to show that you care enough to explain why the cat.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
And if that's going to be a cat, that's fine, that's a cat.
And then it, then it, the conversation might then be connected with,
it's hard to feel connected.
So if you keep it as a cat, it's not as real and it's not as it's connected as a,
as, as the person, if you see what I mean, that there's, you know, has been labeled.
Yeah.
It keeps it separate.
So, does that make sense?
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that sometimes you have to
actually explain metaphor?
Ellie Williams: Um, for the little ones, I do.
At the beginning, when we first start with the equine therapy, I'll explain
the metaphor a little bit more, just because they don't understand
metaphors, really, until a certain age.
Yeah, I mean,
Rupert Isaacson: it's fairly complex.
Ellie Williams: Yeah, yeah.
So, we'll simplify it.
Thanks.
And you know, say, say the, the client's working with the miniature
horse, and mom says, oh, well this is like Sally Sal, Sally and, and you.
And so now we're gonna call that horse Sally for the rest of the, you
know, when we're with that client.
Unless the client says, no, not Sally, I don't want s you know, I
don't want it to be called Sally.
And then being able to put words to that.
Wow, what is it about this one that's like Sally, you know, so,
even if they're a little resistant, you can still keep working with it.
Rupert Isaacson: But I presume you need people to at least have a certain degree
of theory, what psychologists would call theory of mind and false belief.
Absolutely.
Understanding that other people see things differently.
I remember spate taking.
Oh, gosh, you know, two to four years slowly to educate Rowan,
my son in metaphor, but of course he was classically autistic.
Now, of course, he, you know, it's like he could script Monty Python.
So I created a complete monster, which is great.
But it, you know, the reason I ask, you know, one does sometimes find that.
Metaphor doesn't come necessarily naturally to everybody, right?
Ellie Williams: And I'm just
Rupert Isaacson: intrigued at what, what are your tools for
helping people to understand it?
Do you have a kind of standard toolbox that you would use?
Ellie Williams: I think everyone's different.
It's kind of like, you know, when you have like horses, everyone's a bit different.
I think for me, it's you have to get a feel for the client and you have to get
a feel for their level of understanding and I adjust in the moment as necessary.
If I need to explain it a bit deeper or make that connection and that's a
little bit different than the Agala model because it's in the Agala model.
It is about the metaphor and the client to maintain that metaphor.
But like you're saying, sometimes, whether it's autism or attachment.
They don't understand it.
They don't get it.
So being able to put words to that and explain it a bit more is necessary.
Rupert Isaacson: What's your advice for someone who's starting out with
this dialect model, who maybe would, I know I'm thrashing this horse a
little bit, but what, if, if they, they run across a client who doesn't
necessarily get the metaphor so easily,
Ellie Williams: what
Rupert Isaacson: would be your advice to somebody To help the client to
understand you're very experienced.
I'm sure a lot of things come.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Automatically to you, but imagine they didn't.
Ellie Williams: I think for me, it's meeting them where they are.
And sometimes it's just, is it about me wanting them to understand it?
Okay.
You know, is it, is it because.
Is it okay for them to just if they if they've got all this
pent up energy and they need to run around the arena, 10 times.
Let's have running races, you know let's let's change the focus and go somewhere,
maybe we have to go somewhere different.
Maybe we have to get creative, you know, I think that's.
I have to reflect a little internally there.
If it's, if it's me that needs them to know, is it working?
Is it just naturally happening?
If not, then there is more education of like, hey, buddy, this is really,
this is a struggle for you, isn't it?
Gosh, it must be, you know, mommy wasn't there for you when you were little.
That must have been really difficult, you know, and now this, this
horse here is over in the corner.
And I wonder if there's a different way that we can, we can
see if we can get him over here.
You know, like, so now I'm like encouraging and educating and connecting
and helping him in a different way.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Right.
I love your points about if they need to run around, then.
Let them run around.
I mean, that, that, as you know, with horse boy, that's the
standard thing is follow the child.
So without that, one can't build the trust.
And if you can't build the trust, then there's no relationship.
And if there's no relationship, there's no communication and we can't begin.
But sometimes, you know, one can have trouble, perhaps.
Explaining that to, to a parent or caregiver.
He's like, no, we came here to do the thing, one thing.
And like, well, because the person's not yet ready for the
thing, ready them for the thing.
Ellie Williams: And
Rupert Isaacson: I
Ellie Williams: try and get that across to them when I meet with them first.
That things are a little different around here sometimes and
sometimes I look a little nuts, but you know, we'll get there.
It just looks a little different
Rupert Isaacson: just, you know, I want to go to a couple of the other modalities
that you use, but with the DDP, what drew you to that particular model?
So, so strongly,
Ellie Williams: I think when, when the, when the attachment specialists moved
out the area and I was like, well, crap now I've got to figure this one out.
I did, I did a lot of research, and Dr.
Hughes work is just so, it's profound, and it's so different,
you know, it's being Who is
Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
Hughes?
Tell us about Dr.
Hughes.
Ellie Williams: Dan Hughes, he calls me the horse lady.
He's he's an amazing psychologist that just, he's written many, many books and he
Rupert Isaacson: What's his first name again?
We didn't quite get it.
Ellie Williams: Dan.
Dan.
Dan
Rupert Isaacson: Hughes.
All right.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
And he is He's just brilliant.
He's like, you know, just sees the world a different way and wants everybody to
know, like, to share what that way is.
Kind of like when, with you and with Lynn and it just learning.
I don't know.
The thing I like about it, I mean, in traditional therapy, you're, you're
taught to be the neutral party and you have to have no feeling and you
have to be like this sort of stoic.
blank thing.
And with, with DDP, Dr.
Hughes is, is about, you know, sometimes it is about helping this
kid know that this is a sad moment and boy, oh, I'm getting a bit teary
and I've got a tear in my eye and my heart's beating a bit faster.
This is really sad, you know, because they don't know, they don't know what sad is,
you know, and it's, it's, It's beautiful.
It's a beautiful model, and he, he just wants to share it with everyone,
and he's done an amazing job.
Yes, is it complicated?
Did my brain explode in the training process?
Probably about ten times.
Rupert Isaacson: What was the thing that blew your brain the most?
Ellie Williams: It just works.
I think, I think the kind of like with, with the horse boy, there's
a scientific aspect behind it.
There's a neurobiology behind the DDP.
You've got Yeah, it's
Rupert Isaacson: what is that?
What is talk us through the science?
I'm intrigued.
Ellie Williams: Well, I think I think it's well, I think that's where I'm
still I'm still learning in the fact of just how it regulates your system.
How can you and that's why I use the neurofeedback which I'm sure
we'll talk about at some point.
Because.
Clients that have attachment issues are dysregulated, and they don't know
how to regulate, and then, so then, obviously your central nervous system
is not in balance, so then you're, so there's a scientific aspect to
it, and it makes sense, and when it works, and when you, when you avoid,
The power struggle and you learn how to have, you know, a client accepts
you and trust you to try new things.
It's, it's just beautiful.
So
Rupert Isaacson: for those people that are followers of, I mean, we're
all followers of some degree, you know, polyvagal theory to some, you
know, is it something similar to that?
Is it regulation of?
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Autonomic nervous system getting you from your dorsal
freak out to your ventral vagal
Ellie Williams: ha.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: is it trust and rest and digest?
Is it along those lines?
Ellie Williams: Yes.
Yeah.
There's a lot of discussion about polyvagal theory and.
John Balin is a wonderful neurobiologist who's also involved in all of that
and you know, yeah, it's just, I mean, it could be, talk about it for weeks.
John
Rupert Isaacson: Balin, you said?
John
Ellie Williams: Balin, J O N.
Rupert Isaacson: And is he, he and Dan Hughes, they work together?
And where are they based from?
And how do we find out more?
Ellie Williams: Both are in the Northeast.
I think John's in Delaware, and I Dan's now up in Maine.
He was in Pennsylvania, but he retired.
Well, he's not really retired, but moved up to Maine.
And they are a dream team when they work together.
Actually, we have a conference in September for DDP.
They're having a conference in the UK.
And all about working with and seeing life through an intersectional lens.
What does that mean?
Just, like, just how everything comes together, whether it's
draw the blank of just if you think of an intersection, whether it's
diversity or racial or cultural or or everything, absolutely everything that
Rupert Isaacson: add to a particular situation.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
And just seeing, seeing life through that lens.
And going to a deeper level.
And this is sort of the focus of the, of the of the conference that
we're having in, in September.
And we're going to have some amazing, John and Dan will be one of the presenters.
And we've got presenters from all over the world to really focus on this.
And that's in September
Rupert Isaacson: in the UK?
Yeah.
Okay, cool.
In Nottingham.
In
Ellie Williams: Nottingham.
Rupert Isaacson: One of my favorite places.
You're going to be there?
Ellie Williams: Yes.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Ellie Williams: Yeah, we are.
It's good.
It's going to be a good one.
Rupert Isaacson: When in September is it?
Ellie Williams: I think it's the 21st and 22nd thing.
Rupert Isaacson: I might be in the UK then.
Ellie Williams: Fantastic.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
So DDP a good thing.
People should look into it.
I'm going to look into it.
Okay.
Talk to us about You've got, you know, equine assisted psychotherapy.
So this is something which I think a lot of people are curious about.
I'll try to talk about cause it sounds complicated.
How does it dip?
What is it?
And how does it differ from DDP?
When would you use one?
And when would you use the other?
Can you talk us through that a little bit, please?
Ellie Williams: So I do, I do a lot of DDP in the office.
And then I do a wonderful hybrid.
I think I think where I, where I struggle, where things are
different is in the Agala model.
It's very self directed and it's about following the client's path
and Sort of guiding and, and not, not directing, yeah, non directive.
And with DDP, a lot of the clientele that we have, it's very, they don't
understand human relationships in general, and they struggle with
relationships, and they struggle, so being more directive is necessary.
It's kind of like we were talking about the metaphor earlier.
It's more difficult.
They don't get it.
So it's needed to maybe go into more detail.
So this is where I've sort of provided this hybrid of utilizing my DDP skills
and techniques within the equine therapy world, whether it's with a horse, whether
it's with the dogs and cats, you know, whatever I might be using on the farm.
If that makes sense.
It does, it does.
Rupert Isaacson: And now you've got, before we were pressing record you talked
me through a situation that's a bit specific to Pennsylvania where the state
has taken legal action over opioid use.
If you're listening to this from, say, the UK or other parts of Europe you
might not know or be aware of quite how drastically negatively the opioid, the
use of opioids of various kinds, has impacted American life over the last.
20, 25 years or so.
Those of us who grew up, you know, in the 80s, we were all familiar with
crack and, you know, crystal meth and things that, you know, like that,
which impacted families terribly.
But the opioid epidemic, because these drugs are the cure.
Yeah.
Quote unquote legal sort of legal forms of heroin effectively, which
by the way started as a legal drug.
That's why it was called heroin.
It was actually created by Bayer in in Germany as supposedly a, a
non addictive form of laudanum and that didn't work out very well.
And they called it heroin because it was supposed to save the day.
But they're, they're effectively forms of that.
And, you know, when I was living in Texas for so long, I was observing
Neighbors, kids of neighbors, people around me just falling like flies.
And the latest one is fentanyl.
And there are even people sort of within Horseboy who've lost relatives
and that sort of thing in the last year or two to fentanyl, because
fentanyl is so incredibly unregulated that you don't even know what's
in the pill that you're taking.
So people have been.
A lot of people die.
The pharmaceutical companies, Big Pharma have unusually actually
been taken to task over this event.
Can you talk us through what's happened in Pennsylvania and how that's
affected the services that you provide?
Ellie Williams: Yeah, it's really exciting in the fact that such horrible things
have happened from the opioid epidemic.
And The it's my understanding now, if I'm incorrect, if I speak
incorrectly, it's not, it's not out of it's out of ignorance.
But my understanding is, is that.
The states are able to, you know, have have sued big pharma.
From my understanding, and then been able to have some settlement funding.
Come in to help them support the communities.
Work through the things that have happened because of the opioid epidemic.
And in our area it's, and I had to write it down because otherwise
I don't want to mess it up.
It's called the York Opioid Collaborative and everybody from
outpatient clinicians, like myself to the the corner to different.
Organizations in the area that deal with.
Individual situations that are related to substance use
specifically the opioid epidemic.
We are all getting together and we are going to work as a team
and we're going to try and.
right the wrong, so to speak.
And we're working on, you know, education, we're working on grief support.
We're working on so many different things to help our community sort of
rebuild from this, this, these horrendous things that have happened because of
Rupert Isaacson: opioids.
What are the horrendous things that have happened?
What have you observed in your rural community with this?
Ellie Williams: I can't tell you how much like how many kids that
I have that have been affected.
By whether it's the, the death of a parent, the overdose of a parent
drug addiction themselves it's a, it, yeah, it's so, it's just
rampant, and it's just heartbreaking.
Rupert Isaacson: How many of the kids that you're seeing that have ended up in
the foster system, is it related to this?
Ellie Williams: I would say more often than not, unfortunately,
Rupert Isaacson: like 50%.
Ellie Williams: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Above 70.
Ellie Williams: I would probably say between 60 and 70 percent of our
clients have a substance use disorder.
Issue, connection, passing, death, you know, that sort of thing related
to substance use, drugs and alcohol.
Rupert Isaacson: Before I get into how you help them I'm just
curious, you know, you're a long time resident in the U S you're as
American as you're British, really.
What do you attribute it to?
Because when I was first moving to the USA drugs were really an urban problem.
Right.
And somewhere it shifted to becoming a rural problem.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, drugs was something which you did when I was young
to try and be cool and identify with the counterculture and so on and so on.
And then somewhere it moved into the mainstream.
Yeah.
Did this, did this, yeah, town to country shift.
Why?
What happened?
What do you think caused that?
Yeah.
Ellie Williams: I think, well, interestingly enough, because I know
when we moved here in the late eight mid to late eighties, I remember my
mom saying, Oh, we're in a good area.
There's no drugs.
You know, it's all good.
And my brother said, I can get whatever you want tomorrow.
So it was always there.
I think, personally, I think, with transportation, I mean, everyone's mobile.
Now, it's everywhere.
In our area, we're sort of, you know, we've got New York,
Philadelphia, Baltimore, D.
C.
We're sort of like in the 95, I 95 corridor.
It's really from our area in South Central Pennsylvania.
It's rampant because it can come in in the ports.
It can come in.
You know, so many different ways and everyone's getting creative with it.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, but what, what's driving the demand
and what I mean by that is
When I was first, you know, I, I trained horses under the table illegally in
Virginia when I first moved to the USA, so, you know, there's a lot of drinking,
there's a certain amount of drug use, people use coke to keep, get themselves
up in the morning, that sort of thing.
And then, you know, that coke and that sort of thing were
fairly rampant among the moneyed.
Right owning youth and that sort of thing, but it was it was
still in general things that people did to party really to sort of, I
guess, to celebrate life in a way some people crashed on it, but others.
You know, they did it for a while and then they moved on and there
was sort of an expectation that that was what people would do.
They'd go through their, you know, naughty phase and then, you
know, this isn't a naughty phase.
And what, what has changed in American culture?
What's changed in rural culture?
I think because because you say you're on the I 95 corridor, right, but we know
that you could go to the most remote part of Montana and it would be there.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And even where quality of life is high, you know, even where
rural culture is strong and maybe there is a lot of cowboy culture and
rodeo and there's stuff going on.
And it's not like they're totally bored.
I mean, there's stuff happening.
What what's changed?
That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of something changed in the side.
Ellie Williams: I think, I think as a, as a, as a culture, I think we were
coming to the whole, like, instant gratification, no pain, you don't
have to deal with it, you know, it's kind of like, it's like the opioids.
Well, you have surgery will give an opioids because then it won't hurt.
Right.
And I think from a mental health perspective.
I think people obviously are now learning that the mental health part of life is
very important and it's been sort of poo pooed, you can't see it, it's not
like a broken arm, you can't see it so people don't understand it as much
and it's the same, and my, my opinion, whatever it, however it might come
across, is that, you know, if you use, you don't have to feel, if you use, you
don't have to cope and all those things that those struggles and, and use.
Things that are difficult go away,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
And I guess I guess I'm sort of thinking as you're as you're talking I guess
that in back, you know, 30 40 years ago These drugs were illegal difficult
to get you had to it was quite risky to go and get them That was half
the thrill was you know, we've got to go to this bad area dodgy bloke
that you got to buy it from and blah But of course these drugs are legal.
Ellie Williams: Yeah
Rupert Isaacson: prescribed by doctors and given a great Quantity
and then they sit around in people's houses and kids find them.
Ellie Williams: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: maybe that's the difference perhaps.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what have you observed is the difference with
Fentanyl as opposed to the other because Fentanyl seems to be the
latest model that is the seems to be the Ferrari of death dealing legal.
Right.
Opioids.
What's different about that one?
Ellie Williams: I think it's the deadliest.
I mean,
Rupert Isaacson: why is it so deadly?
Ellie Williams: It's so strong.
It's, it's unregulated.
You can't, I mean, it's,
you never know what, you know, when it's, you know, you hear, I hear
so often it was they, they OD'd because it was laced with fentanyl.
because they can't regulate it.
I mean, I'm not sure.
I mean, it's an illegal drug, so it's not like it's going to be
regulated, but you know, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so somebody comes to you and their life has
been negatively impacted by it.
What, what percentage of people are you seeing that are addicts slash users?
What percentage of people are you seeing that are people who've been affected
by family members who are addicts slash
Ellie Williams: users?
That's as an outpatient clinician, it's.
You know, typically, I think many outpatient standpoint, active
using is, it's not exactly, you know, our top choice.
I did, I did work with one client in particular who was
struggling with recovery.
That's, we sort of continue to go back and forth.
Most of the time they're working on their recovery.
They've gone through rehab
and a lot of times I'm working with the kids.
And the kids watching the family members go through rehab, being away,
disconnecting, maybe then, you know,
starting to use again, you know, that sort of thing.
So that's where, that's where I, my, a lot of my work is with the, with the kiddos.
Rupert Isaacson: And so when a kid is observing this obviously they're
at risk of being drawn in, but
there's also, you know, just a thousand other traumas that come.
What's your standard?
approach with a kid that is affected by this going on in the household?
What do you
Ellie Williams: I think, I think for me, from a therapeutic standpoint, it's,
it's understanding what they're, what they're going through, what they're, how
it's affecting them, how it, how I can help support them and process through
these experiences, how to keep them safe.
You know, those, those sort of things is very important.
Rupert Isaacson: You have kids that say to you sometimes, well, you
wouldn't understand Ellie, you come from a nice home, you, you grew up
with horses, you're, you're posh, you're this, you're that, you know,
how can you possibly empathize or put yourself in our shoes like this?
Do you get that?
Ellie Williams: Sometimes, yeah.
And then sometimes it's, it's, it is, it's, you know, It does feel better
when you feel like you're, you know, you talk to somebody that you can
connect with and, you know, a lot of times that's when you're in the drug
and alcohol field, you have people in recovery that are counselors.
And, you know, sometimes that might be a conversation to be had.
That would be really cool.
Maybe we can connect.
Maybe we can find somebody for you to connect with that has.
Those, you know, experiences in a therapeutic setting, you
know, let's talk about that.
Let's unpack that a little bit, you know, cause it might just feel being,
I need to feel like I can connect with somebody, but then is my education
and understanding enough or are they just deflecting away and just
saying, well, you're, you're crap.
I don't want to talk to you cause I don't want to talk about it anyway.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Right.
And I would find whatever excuse to not talk.
Ellie Williams: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
How do the horses help with this?
Ellie Williams: Oh, they're brilliant.
They're just brilliant.
They, they feed into the energy.
I've had, I have these, these big blocks.
I have these little blocks that have words written all over them.
And I cannot tell you how often the kids will pull these blocks out and
just throw them all out of the arena.
And the horses will go over and pick them up.
Nine times out of 10.
I'm pretty sure horses can't read, but they'll pick up a block that will be
like heartbroken or scared or, I mean, and all the blocks are not necessary,
whatever they pick up, the client can relate whatever's happening with.
And
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, do you have a block that says totally cool?
No problem.
Ellie Williams: I need to have one of those actually.
Yeah.
But we do, we have loved, we have all these different ones and it more times
than not, the horses will They'll connect, whether it's, whether it's
if they need the energy and the being beside them and interact with them in
the moment, or if they need to like, they've turned their butts around
facing away, those sorts of things.
And as a clinician, then that's, that's what we talk about.
Oh, that's really interesting.
That one's over there looking that way.
What's, what's going on with that?
You know, that's my mom.
She's always looking out.
She's checking to see where, where the dealer is and when, when the
next fix is coming and, you know, I'm just back in, don't give a
shit, you know, that sort of thing.
And yeah, it's just the horses feel it.
They feel the energy.
Rupert Isaacson: When you get these kids, how long are you
typically working with them for?
And do you get a chance to follow through with their progress afterwards?
Or does it, is it a bit of a mystery where they go?
Ellie Williams: It's.
It's an interesting, that's an interesting question, actually, because
the process with developmental trauma is sort of, it's not a quick one.
And I have found in child welfare in our area more recently, they've been trying to
sort of push things through a bit quicker.
You know, whether it's terminating parental rights, placing for
adoption, that sort of thing.
But it's, it's interesting that
If you don't have the child or the client regulated and secure, they're
not going to, they're not able to then move forward in life in a healthy way.
And then you have failed adoptions and you have ongoing mental health issues.
And it's, I've seen more of it because they're pushing things along and I'm
saying they're not ready, but then I'm getting trumped because For reasons of,
you know, the child welfare system says, well, they, they need to be adopted now.
And sometimes they need to be adopted.
But my services need to continue.
Right.
But in our area and most areas that the cases close.
The day of adoption, so then services don't continue
unless they pay out of pocket.
So we are creative.
There are, there are times where I have the, the children and youth
have agreed to pay for up to a year of continued services or ongoing.
So we're getting there.
We're getting there.
But it's, you know, I do.
I mean, I've had clients that have been with me for six months to a year.
I've got clients that have been with me for nine years.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Talk to us about a nine year client because that, that's, that's quite.
An amazing thing to be able to go through that kind of trajectory
of relationship with somebody.
Can you, without naming names, can you talk us through a story?
Ellie Williams: So, I've got a couple.
I'll go.
So, this one, this one's a cool one because this is a kiddo.
You know, when you work with clients that have extreme trauma, extreme,
extreme trauma, life was very unsafe.
And I'm going to talk in very big generalities, because I know this is
going nation worldwide, nationwide, and I don't want to even come close to
potentially breaching confidentiality.
So working with a client and a caregiver within the, and we, and
she clients to this left the client that I've had for a long time.
All the programs, so I've.
They've had neurofeedback, they've had DDP, they've had client therapy,
they've, you name it, that we've done it, they've done it, you know,
and, and, and just learning that life isn't scary and life is not chaotic.
And, you know, from, from a lot of times I have clients that There's a lot
of pooping issues, urinating issues, whether it's in the rooms, whether it's
in the house a lot of sabotage again, power struggles, need for control.
They have nothing else that they can control.
They will control.
their bowel movements and extreme behavioral issues, extreme
behavioral issues, runaway behaviors.
I mean, going, you know, all of these things and just never giving up.
And I think that's the biggest thing when you have a client for so long,
you're building the relationship, right?
This is a client that doesn't know how to build relationships.
They weren't, didn't have that secure attachment.
So, not giving up, you know, they run away, well we're gonna, let's,
let's figure out how to keep you safe, what's going on, finding the
right medications, that sort of thing.
So now, being able to reflect to a level of, you know, sometimes I just
don't get people, and sometimes I talk to them and I just, there's a sort of
this void of, because I, I wasn't taught that when I was little, you know, when
I was young, I didn't know what that was, and I wasn't, you know, nobody.
I didn't know what having a cuddle and feeling safe and secure was,
and being able to go from that to then now being able to reflect to
a deeper level, and I only see them once a month, you know, and it just.
What a journey for them to now be able to go out into into the world.
And yeah, it's just beautiful,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
We judge or we discern if you like success.
So often by, as you said, going out into the world having a job, having home,
not causing trouble, you know, not.
causing yourself or others undue suffering, but even, even more becoming
a contributing member of society.
Have you, have you seen that outcome?
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Yeah.
And even, even times where I've seen, I've maybe worked with them for a short time.
And like I said, this, the models that I've chosen to use in, in sort
of collaboration and combination.
Like I've seen kids that might have run away, but I've worked with them
for six months to a year and then.
Been able to just through the grapevine, I'll run into a worker and
be like, oh, you know, did they ever like, reconnect if they have a safe.
And to know that they're doing okay, and they're doing well, and yes, they did
have some struggles, but they're safe now.
Means the world, you know, and I had a kid that I went to shelter to see, and I
was like, wait, this kid looks familiar.
He was a part of a group that we had years ago, and this kid
remembered the names of our animals, the dogs, the horses and the cats.
And you can't tell me in typical therapy and traditional therapy half
the time the kids don't even know the name of the therapist, right?
That's pretty powerful.
Rupert Isaacson: When you, have you seen any of those people come
into the therapy world themselves and, and become therapist mentors?
Ellie Williams: Not yet.
Just because I mean, we're in 18 years.
I have had some interns that have been that have grown up in the foster care
system that have become therapists, but I did not work with them to
Rupert Isaacson: see that happen.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Rupert Isaacson: That's great.
So, so, so some can see it as a career path too.
Ellie Williams: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Great.
Yeah.
Alright.
I want to ask you about another thing, . You mentioned neurofeedback.
Now I happen to be a fan of neurofeedback.
I've had neurofeedback myself and in times in my life when I've been
going through funks, you know, I will seek out healing of various kinds.
People know that I would obviously ride to Mongolia or go to the Kalahari or.
You know, go sit in sweat lodges and all of that.
Yes.
But I'd also look, you know, in more conventional as much as saying
neurofeedback is conventional.
And I've, you know, tried therapy.
I find therapy didn't work for me so much because it felt like my nose was
being rubbed in my own poop you know, and it was a bit less of a bad dog,
you know, bad dog is why I'm here.
But I found with neurofeedback I've been intrigued because I've met a
neurofeedback the practitioner and therapist some years before, and I'd
always say, Ooh, that sounds interesting.
Got to learn more about that.
And it'd been on the list.
And then finally that was for the one day I think I might benefit from that.
So I went along and had the, you know, the electrodes put on
my head and watch the screen.
I'm going to have you talk us through what happens with that.
But what was interesting to me is I could feel, I could
physically feel my brain changing.
Yeah.
And I could feel.
Thought processes changing in a way that
the closest I could come to something, compare that palpably was things
I felt with really good healers in indigenous settings, where you could
feel the change really happening physiologically inside you and your brain.
So please talk us through neurofeedback.
Not a lot of people won't know what it is.
And they might get that confused with other types of feedback things.
So what is neurofeedback?
How does it differ from other types of feedback?
And then also there are different types of neurofeedback.
So just give us the skinny.
Ellie Williams: So I use a system called neuro optimal neurofeedback,
and that is a system that is sort of all included within itself.
So sometimes with biofeedback or other neurofeedback systems, You have to become
a clinician in that you make adjustments as the, the training goes with the system
that I use the neuro optimal system.
It is all within the algorithm.
So, as having the machine, the brain training system, I
am able to hook up a client.
It's a 33 minutes.
System training and I unhook them.
Everything is done within the algorithm, which is fantastic because
there's no room for human error.
It really
Rupert Isaacson: does that mean if I go Alexa is healing me.
Alexa fix my brain.
Ellie Williams: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: brain
Ellie Williams: brain.
Okay.
Yeah, it's I love this system.
And again, it's the system that I chose to use because of it being within.
Within the system, and I don't have to because I do it there.
I can do a therapy session while that client is hooked up for neurofeedback.
So, the system that I use reads.
356 brain waves a 2nd, it allows for if it reads an imbalance in the
brain, there will be a scratch in the music or a break in the music.
and the brain kind of goes, wait, what?
And adjusts.
So it's helping sort of like regulate your brain mechanically.
So then hopefully your brain will then start regulating itself on its own.
Rupert Isaacson: Are they watching?
So when I did it, I watched a movie and then I actually
watched a series on neuroscience.
I thought that was appropriate and I was sitting in the chair and whenever
occasionally, you know, the screen go very small or fuzzy or something.
And presumably that was when the machine was detecting some quirk or anomaly or
something, and then it would write itself.
And as you explained that, you know, my therapist explained,
well, that's your brain.
Writing it, but this is a bit, this can come off as gobbledygook to people
that don't know and understand it.
What's going on?
Why are you watching a screen?
Why are you listening to music?
Why does it change or the screen go small or something?
What's happening when that happens and what happens when it writes itself?
Just give us a total ignoramus to tell us.
Ellie Williams: Well, I think, I think when the brain is stressed, if
you think about a muscle, like your brain's a muscle, just like your arms
and your legs and all that stuff.
But when you're out of whack, your brain, nothing is balanced.
Right?
So, it's, it's like, when we're stressed, we're holding ourselves,
we're tense, we're like, achy, our brain's achy, we have headaches we're
not sleeping, those sort of things.
And being able to, like you say, you feel a difference.
So it's reading your brain waves and it's working to regulate.
It's working to balance within the system.
So I always called it my magic machine.
I love the kids.
They may they like me pulling it a magic machine because it does.
They feel better using it.
And the great thing is, is the system now you can actually do a therapy session
during the time that you're hooked up.
That's why I like doing, I mean, I can do a movie.
I choose the audio with the music because I can do the
therapy session at the same time.
Rupert Isaacson: When you do a therapy session at the same time
the, the, presumably the person, they're talking to you, right?
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Presumably the person is going through, the brain
is computing information that, you know, and trying to make decisions
and trying to understand things.
How do you know that the machine is not misinterpreting the brain
going, what does Ellie mean by that?
As a brain imbalance thing, like, how, how would it know?
Ellie Williams: Because it's amazing.
It is all within the algorithm, to be fair.
I'd have to ask Dr.
Brown for that one.
But the
Rupert Isaacson: Who is Dr.
Brown, by the way?
Ellie Williams: He created the neuro optimal system.
Rupert Isaacson: Dr.
Who Brown?
Ellie Williams: Just go with Dr.
Brown because it's something that's a bit,
Rupert Isaacson: Neuro, neuro optimal, Neurofeedback, yes.
Neurofeedback, Dr.
Brown.
Just keep talking, I'm going to look him up.
Ellie Williams: Okay, thanks.
So for me, it's,
I find it interesting because I'll start with a client who might be actually quite
resistant to opening up to that deeper level, and more often than not, the brain
regulates probably about 15 minutes in.
And it's starting to open up, and they're actually more open to going to
a deeper level, so it's almost an aid to the therapy session, because you're
able to really go to a great place.
There's less deflection and disconnect.
From a therapeutic perspective which is amazing.
That's why when I have clients that are in shelter, and I go see them
in shelter, I always recommend the neurofeedback along with a therapy
session because it's important to me being in a shelter placement anyway
is nerve wracking and stressful.
So it's, it's just important, you know, we have the ability through the neuro
optimal system to, to help regulate and balance and yeah, it's, it's amazing.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what makes you decide, okay, I think for
this client, it's neurofeedback.
Ellie Williams: I think if I see them dysregulated and not being able to
regulate, if, as long as I can keep them.
In the chair, like I have some kids, like I said earlier that just need to run
around, but it's a very active session.
Obviously, I can't do that if they're attached to neurofeedback, but I
think if I can see them starting to regulate themselves without it.
they won't need it, you know, but if they really need, if they're that dysregulated
and they're really struggling, it's such a, I mean, it's, it's just a wonderful,
I don't know what the right word is tool.
It's just a wonderful tool that it'll help them get to where
they need to be easier, quicker.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find that in general clients, kids or adults
that they're quite curious about it?
Like,
Ellie Williams: absolutely.
So I do,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
Yeah,
Ellie Williams: yeah, I do.
I do some sports kids that have like big it either riding showing athletics.
I have some clients that come just for neurofeedback because it helps
with their sport performance.
A lot of sports, especially, I mean, I think worldwide, but there's a lot of
pressure in, in sports for teenagers.
And I cannot tell you, like, I'll show up and nobody wants to see me.
They're just like, you have the machine?
Do you have the machine?
Because they, they want to feel better and they do.
Like you said, it works.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, it really did.
It was, I looked forward.
I, you know, I couldn't imagine looking forward to a therapy session
until I, until I discovered that.
I was like, I would, you know, I'd be like leaping out of the car and into the chair.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And it also felt frequently that one got full of
endorphins because you could feel your brain actually working hard.
You know how it is.
You you're on you
Ellie Williams: sometimes
Rupert Isaacson: have trouble staying awake.
You almost want to drop off and you can feel your brain kind of going fucking
on running up the hill here, you know, and but there was a corresponding
feeling of pleasure and relief.
Ellie Williams: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: It's as if one had done a workout.
Have you, here's a question.
Have you tried it yourself?
Ellie Williams: Oh, I
Rupert Isaacson: love
Ellie Williams: it.
Yes.
If I have to, if I have a big court day, like testimony wise I'll hook up before
I go in cause I'll be super focused.
But also, you know, running a business and everything, you get, you know,
get overwhelmed and it's a bit hectic.
But it's a nice way to regulate as well.
So yeah, love it.
Rupert Isaacson: So when you do that, I mean, for your own stress management
then and coping, do you have someone hook you up or do you hook yourself up?
Ellie Williams: I hook myself up, which is quite tricky.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
Ellie Williams: Trying to figure it out.
Yeah.
I get it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I can see why you had trouble remembering Dr.
Brown's Christian name because it is indeed one I have never seen before.
His name is Valdean.
Ellie Williams: There you go, Val.
That's it.
I knew it was something difficult.
Rupert Isaacson: Valdean.
It's V A L D E A N E.
Okay.
And I'm looking at his bio, which is like 8, 000 pages long.
But it says for he was, he was working in the mental health industry
before getting his PhD in psychology, but for over 25 years, he taught
continuing medical education courses.
Lot of work with borderline anger and so on.
And developed it with his wife, Dr.
Sue Brown.
And I have a, I've pulled up a website, but we'll, we'll give all
these all these resources at the end.
Do you know of many other equine therapy places using neurofeedback?
Ellie Williams: I don't actually.
And it's, it's a conversation that comes up a lot.
Well, first of all, with, with equine, it's difficult because
you'd have to do it separately.
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
Ellie Williams: But I often have through the different conversations
and connections with professionals through DDP with, with dietic
developmental psychotherapy.
It's a conversation that's often had, there's a lot of interest because
it's, again, it's such a great.
Additional support.
So it's something that's being talked about more.
And Dr.
Brown, his brain, remember I said earlier, like, if I don't know it, I want to
find somebody that does like, like you said, his it's like 8000 pages long.
He thinks around like, 5 corners from now, like, he is so beyond smart.
And it was just.
It was an honor to meet him.
How did you meet
Rupert Isaacson: him?
Where did you
Ellie Williams: meet him?
He was a part of the advanced training session that we did.
And just fascinating, absolutely amazing man.
And just again, he's created the system.
That's just absolutely brilliant.
Rupert Isaacson: So if somebody wants, you know, like, you know, with, with
horse boy, for example, we have a lot of locations and I'm thinking now as
we're talking, you know, maybe we should have, you know, a neurofeedback wing
to what we do, because as we're always saying, you know, so much of the time,
the person isn't actually on the horse or interacting with the horse at all.
You know, that, that all this other time when they're at your place where
they're, they're not doing that, what are we doing with the rest of our time?
So we of course have movement method and.
Other things, but I'm beginning to think, okay, yeah, maybe we
should have a neurofeedback studio.
What training do you have to go through to do it?
How much does it cost?
What do people need to know?
Ellie Williams: It's actually the cost itself.
I was just having a conversation with a colleague last night, actually.
I like, we have a professional system.
They have family systems that are less expensive and There's a, like
a level, I think it's a level one training and advanced training.
It just goes into more detail about the actual system and the
outcomes and that sort of thing in the, in the advanced training.
It's probably about now.
We got our system a few years back, but probably about 15, 000 maybe to
the system for the professional system
Rupert Isaacson: for the training.
Ellie Williams: It wasn't, it wasn't a lot.
I mean, it was, it was probably a few hundred dollars
training and it was online.
You don't have to be a clinician to just hook up.
You can be a life coach.
You could be a, you know, a worker.
Because you're, as long as you're not providing counseling,
you can see what I mean.
So it can be used in different, different avenues.
And
Rupert Isaacson: someone could indeed just get a machine and use it on themselves.
Ellie Williams: For sure.
Yeah.
So I went down to a pony finals in the U S and I was hooking people up.
And I had a, one of the customers went and bought their own machine
because they're like Was absolutely loved it and wanted to keep doing it.
So now if you have a personal machine, you pay per time that you get hooked up.
You can like get a bundle of 100 or 10 with the professional system.
It's unlimited, which is nice.
And
Rupert Isaacson: okay so that's the, how long is the training?
Ellie Williams: It's usually, I think it's like a weekend or two mornings.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's really doable.
Yeah,
Ellie Williams: absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: And.
Insurance?
Any special insurances?
What if the machine goes bang while it's on your head or whatever?
Yeah,
Ellie Williams: so, well, there's no, there's no it can't hurt you.
So insurance, like liability, I mean, that is covered under our
liability, you know, for the company.
Rupert Isaacson: So, so if someone's already got a therapeutic
practice, they don't need to take out extra insurance for this?
Ellie Williams: Correct.
Correct.
The we do pay for a membership with the company.
So then, like, we had a situation where it stopped working because,
you know, technology stops working.
They had another system to us within 2 days from Canada.
It's a Canadian company.
And in two days, we shipped them ours, they fixed it, they shipped it
back, I mean, absolutely brilliant.
They also will go in like the back door and fix it if it's something that they
can fix in like from remotely, that is, I mean, it's worth every penny.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Sold.
I think I'm going to do it.
Why not?
Okay.
So, we've covered a fair bit of ground here.
I know you're also working with military.
How does that work?
And how, how's it different?
From the work you're doing with trauma, with other types of trauma,
or it, does it really effectively, you know, turn out to be the same work?
Ellie Williams: Well, I think the work of it is the same.
I think the, the biggest struggle we have is the stigma behind mental
health treatment with, with getting veterans and military to Sort of buy
in to the work that we do, which is which is probably the biggest struggle.
My biggest just my awareness, because I have I have some.
That's that you have been sort of my, like, sort of
been with me for a long time.
But I think the biggest thing is, is that if you are close to
a base or a big hospital, it's.
that's where you're going to get the clientele.
So just from a personal sort of feedback standpoint, it's, it's really difficult
to get them to come to therapy, you know.
Even when we do
Rupert Isaacson: it,
Ellie Williams: we're still struggle.
We still struggle.
Even if we talk about, you know, just doing groups and not
even, it's not even therapy.
We're doing just learning.
It's still really hard.
If you see what I mean,
Rupert Isaacson: do you, do you go and knock on the doors of the base and say,
Hey, we're here or how do they find you?
Ellie Williams: So we don't have anything close.
Like our, like we're still like our VA hospitals, like an hour and a half
away, which makes it really difficult.
But yes, that's how I started.
So yeah, it's it's again it's about knocking on the doors, asking them
three times and hopefully by the fourth time it'll, they'll just say yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, as we, we fallen into it ourselves almost by accident by word of mouth.
And now, you know, we've had programs with the U.
S.
Air Force and the Bundeswehr in Germany, and recently actually with the
Department of Defense in the Netherlands.
In Europe, it seems that there really is, And embracing and
an acceptance particularly when it involves horses and animals.
I think you must have found this that when you have adults and you're
pairing them up with the ponies,
Ellie Williams: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: well, they, they, they show up just because they like
the horses, you know, and that one of the things that we noticed was
that people will complete and finish.
A therapy program, really, just because they miss the
horses and they want to come.
They don't give a, they don't care about us.
They just, yeah.
And that's really how it should be.
And I think that's one of the powers.
When you're, is there anything specific about the work that you're doing
with military or first responders?
What, how, what's different about your approach when you're doing that?
I
Ellie Williams: don't think, I think it's, it's all quite consistent.
I think the, the biggest piece for me, I mean, we work within the trauma field.
And I mean, our lives are built on relationships.
So, whether it's combat trauma or complex trauma, you know, we're
still gonna use the same skills and it just, it just might, might have a
little bit of a different audience.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
If you have, do you deal with guilt of feeling that, Somebody was there
on the wrong side doing the wrong thing, like that kind of guilt, not
I took a life or I experienced a traumatic situation or many, but I
really actually feel that I shouldn't have been there and I was the baddie.
Do you, do you, do you get, have you dealt with that guilt?
Ellie Williams: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
Rupert Isaacson: And how do you deal with that?
I'm curious.
Ellie Williams: I think with a lot of like, except like acceptance and empathy,
you know, you have to fully understand and unpack where they're coming from, you
know, and I'm just like, understanding, you know, that perspective, putting,
putting yourself in their shoes and understanding like, what is that for them.
That's so important.
And for them to be heard and to completely unpack it and understand it
and, you know, they can't change it.
How can they work through it, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: How do they work through it?
Do you tend to observe?
What's the internal process that you observe?
Ellie Williams: Well, it's different for everyone.
Sure.
You know, I think, I think it's they have to go through, you know, the acceptance.
They have to go through Yeah, understanding and it's, I think the
horses meeting them where they are and being able to just, they, they, they
don't, they don't take any crap, but the horses don't, they, they know, you
know, like I've had, I've had that's talking about situations in the middle
of the field and the alpha horse comes and puts his head on his chest.
You know, from the other side of the field, you know, it's, it's instances
like that that's different that makes it more profound and more powerful to,
you know, talking about the loss of a family member, and then having this.
Profound moment, you know,
Rupert Isaacson: and
Ellie Williams: it's, that's what makes this work different.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
No, I, I couldn't agree more.
And when you see those things happen, you can't explain them.
I remember you, you probably remember a horse we had called clue.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Who actually passed away this year finally, but in
the best way, he very, very old.
And he just was not getting up one morning in the field as he was good.
And he was still the boss.
Mr.
Grumps, but Mr.
Grumps I remember once we had a child who had drowned and Was in a pretty
unreachable vegetative state and you know, they brought him out to us and
he said, gosh, you know, it's just, I'm punching above my weight here.
You know, I, I, I truly just don't know what to do, but I
don't want to turn people away and clue is exactly as you described.
He came from across the field and he began to lick this child all over his body.
Wow.
Yeah.
And you're looking at it going, what is this?
Yes.
Yeah.
You think, you know, something about horses and you realize you
absolutely know nothing at all.
You know, you, you, yes.
And at the end of that, the child reached out and you know, and
then clues like, Oh, job done.
You know, he goes off and just starts grazing and you're standing there
with your mind completely blown.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Ellie Williams: it is.
Well, I think it helps the process, doesn't it?
I mean, that's a profound story and it just, it can bring, especially I
think with veterans sometimes the, the disconnect can be so severe and
it can bring like that grounding that, that connection back to the, to the
moment and to the, to the present time.
That can be really important with the horses.
Like, I've had a lot of female veterans with military sexual trauma.
And I'll tell you, I've had horses that don't get mouthy, get mouthy.
And then it's that whole boundary, and you need to say no, and set the the
rule, and And then, wow, what was that?
I didn't want him doing that.
You know, okay.
How did you say, how did you say no, thank you.
No, I don't want you to do that.
So it's it's a great start to that conversation of like, no,
no.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's interesting.
You observe the horse pushing over
Ellie Williams: the
Rupert Isaacson: boundary or at least perhaps the boundary and not being there.
So the horse and then a boundary being set and then the horse respecting.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, amazing.
Ellie Williams: Or the horse not respecting it immediately because
sometimes people don't listen to that person now and having to, yeah, that,
that's been, that's been a that happens a lot with the, the sexual trauma stuff,
you know, from a, from a standpoint of, you know, from a, yeah, as a victim.
Rupert Isaacson: Here's a question, you know, men tend not to talk
about their sexual trauma very much.
There's more particularly if it's male to male, you know, there's a lot of
shame attached to it and, you know, compromised manhood and all that.
Do you, but it does happen, of course, it happens quite a lot in the military.
Have you worked with that much?
Ellie Williams: Not as much again, just military wise, just because of
just our location, we don't have that.
large of a population.
I have worked with it with young, younger boys that have
been victims of sexual assault.
Sexual abuse in childhood and then working through not only the
trauma, but their sexuality, their identity, that sort of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: When it comes to an identity issue that's tied up with that,
how can you give us an idea about how the work with the horses might play out?
Ellie Williams: Well, it's interesting, actually, because as of right now,
the conversation comes up a lot.
The conversation comes up a lot because we have all male horses on
the farm, and that's not by choice.
It just happened that way, whether they were donated, whether they're ours.
And I swear most, most oftentimes horses will, the male horses will
drop down with their penis out so they can during session because either
they have to pee, they're relaxed.
They're just.
And it seems to present itself when you're talking about sexual
assault, that sort of thing.
So it gives a good conversation starter, because you're
already talking about anatomy.
And because, especially younger kids, they'll be like, what's that?
You know, because they don't necessarily understand.
But it's, it is, it's every, again, everybody's different.
And when you talk about, It's a great to start with the horses, which
talk about their identity and their identities change from client to client.
They might be a girl, they might be a boy, they might be a cat.
I mean, it can be whatever, whatever needs to be.
So it's a good place to start and it's a safer place to start.
You know, it's safer to talk about them than it is to talk about yourself.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And I guess too, when you say that you're dealing with male horses, because
you're dealing with, with geldings, not with stallions exhibiting, you know.
Big Stanley behaviors.
But, and so I guess that's an interesting, do you use that analogy?
Well, this is, this is, you couldn't say that the horse is gender neutral
cause they're still male, but they are, their gender has been modified.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: That is impacting their behavior.
Does that come up in conversation?
And if so, how?
Ellie Williams: Not, not specifically because it, I try and try and leave
the educational part, that sort of educational part out, because I want
to know more from what the clients.
observing and what, what they related to.
So for example, um, having a conversation with a client about
what brought them into foster care and the sexual assault by mom's
caramel, you know, that sort of thing.
And then the horse comes, it's, it's around and they drop down
or so we're having conversations with starting conversations.
And we have one little miniature horse that came into our care
because of some serious abuse.
It was not sexual abuse, but it's a good place to start.
It's a little bit safer.
We talk about You know, how he is and what his life is like
now and how he might see things.
And he also says, he has tricks.
So he says yes and no, which is nice.
So depending on the age of the child, that might come into play.
So yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The work that you do when you go out, okay, you, you,
how, how big of a team are you now?
You, you, you've got a relatively compact herd.
You said two horses, a couple of minis in it.
cat and a dog sort of thing.
But it sounds like you've got a lot of clients.
And so who are your co workers?
How have you built your practice?
What does your practice look like?
And what do you find is an optimal sort of a practice?
Ellie Williams: Yeah, we, we only have a small farm, so we only have about
10 acres at the, at the main farm.
So that would be really can't get much more.
We're getting a thoroughbred actually next week, which is nice.
He's going to be off the track and has a new, he'll have a new career.
Which will be very similar.
We're going to try and almost document his, his journey, which will be nice.
We have two therapists on staff now, which is fantastic because I, we had
multiple therapists and then COVID hit and then I was the only therapist again.
We have about five equine professionals, six if I count the
one in Maryland, which is nice.
So it's probably about a staff of 10 altogether.
So it's still quite small.
Um, but it's This is a tricky it's a tricky world to be in.
I mean, we're probably 1 of the only facilities in the area that strictly.
It was mostly equine work.
I mean, I said I do office work as well, but.
Primarily, I mean, I'll I'll.
Equine is in our name, so, so, yeah.
And when you're
Rupert Isaacson: doing office work, are you, are you often bringing those people
into the equine work at some point?
Yeah, I mean,
Ellie Williams: some, it depends.
Like, I'll have some office sessions and we have some cats and dogs.
We've had rabbits in the past.
So, you know, we're bringing, we still have animals in session.
That just might be a little different.
And then I have a kid that has been doing neurofeedback in an office session and
and she's like, can I, can we do horses?
I'd like to do some more stuff.
And I'm like, okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So how
Ellie Williams: does the
Rupert Isaacson: cat help?
Ellie Williams: I love the cat.
So our cat, his name is Mars and he has his own, he grew up in a very violent, not
violent as in he was hurt, but it was sort of lots of play fighting and aggression.
And so.
It's great in a way because a lot of the kids that we have also grew up in that
environment and then when they interact, they have to learn how to respect and.
relax and not hurt each other.
So it's, it's a win win when, when Mars doesn't like bring
out his claws, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: So, yeah.
So how does, how does Mars help with that?
Ellie Williams: He does.
So it's nice because it's an education of like, not only does it happen with people,
it can happen with animals, that, that there can be some aggressive behaviors.
So Mars would, would
Rupert Isaacson: like hiss and scratch and say, oy.
Yep.
Ellie Williams: He likes his head scratched, but if you touch his
back, which I'm sure has been an area of unsafe for him, that yeah,
he'll, he'll say no, thank you.
And now he's, he's originally he would like literally like
latch onto you and like bite you.
We would try really hard to not have him sort of interact with the
clients because it wasn't safe.
But over time he's, yeah, becoming really mellow and lovely and nibbles a
little bit, but not, not like he used to.
And it's a, it's a great story for kids to see.
Even the cat can, can learn how to do something different.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, yeah, so I guess it makes an analogy.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And the dogs, how do you use them?
Ellie Williams: Ah!
So we have a Corgi, her name is Tinka, and she is the, the friendliest dog
ever, and she interacts, she does some really nice like she'll push the bull
towards the client, she loves to play really, she's very interactive, so
again, just like we would have with the horses in session, very interactive.
And she genuinely just loves people.
So there's this happiness and there's joy that she can bring
to session which is good as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Joy, I think is, is, is, is the key here.
I think if, if any of us were to really try to define what it is we try to
do, it's that we try to bring joy.
Right.
I mean that we, you know, people are, there is suffering and what
is the opposite of suffering?
Suffering, the opposite of suffering is joy.
Ellie Williams: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And yeah, I've observed, I think, more times than I can count,
a dog often being really key with that.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
Because
Rupert Isaacson: they can access that, like, so immediately despite whatever
other emotional stuff is going on.
They're like, I am going to be joyful right now because
there's a ball in front of me.
And to sort of, as an analogy, that, you know, that is possible.
You know, you can have stuff going on in your life, but hey, if
someone chucks a ball, it's fun.
Yeah.
I think that's often an underutilized tool.
Yeah.
The, the absolute commitment to joyful mood that dogs
can, can have and can bring.
Okay.
Well, I think there's going to be people that might want to get in touch with
you because you mentor people in how to get going with this type of thing.
Absolutely.
People reach you, Ellie.
Ellie Williams: So, our website is www e do equity team.org,
which is E-Q-U-I-T-E-A-M,
Rupert Isaacson: equity team dot O-R-G-O-R-G.
Ellie Williams: Yep.
And that would basically give you all the connections of what,
it'll give my number and email.
So website is the way to go.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And then just again, talk us through one by one, each of those, these
modalities you're using, just so people can write them down now at the end.
Ellie Williams: So we use the EGALA model, which is the Equine Assisted Growth and
Learning Association Equine Therapy Model.
I'm a practitioner with Diadic Developmental Psychotherapy.
Rupert Isaacson: DDP
Ellie Williams: and Huh?
Rupert Isaacson: D-D-P-D-D-P.
Ellie Williams: Yeah.
I am a practitioner for Horse Boy, and I do neuro optimal neurofeedback training,
Rupert Isaacson: neuro optimal neurofeedback, and people can
traps if you, if you're looking on.
Ellie's website, the equity team.
org.
There's a lot of information on there on it.
And please do reach out to her as a mentor.
I've watched over the years, Ellie bill.
And she was awesome.
I remember when we first met you, but I've just seen you build it and
build it and build it and go from strength to strength and survive
COVID and, you know, keep serving.
Ellie Williams: Right.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So hats off.
Ellie Williams: Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Easy ride.
I know.
Yeah.
If you had any advice, last words, advice for someone who's just starting
out in this field, because I think this is what people like me, I don't
feel like a veteran in the field.
I feel like the same, you know, newcomer that I always was, but people
who've been at it for a while now, what do you, what's your advice?
What's your, what would you say to people now that want to
get into this professionally?
Ellie Williams: I think, I think to, to more to simplify it is just don't give up,
you know, find your passion and connect with people that can, if you don't know
it, connect with somebody that does.
Rupert Isaacson: Look for mentorship.
Ellie Williams: That's really important.
All
Rupert Isaacson: right.
Well, listen, Ellie, it's been, it's been a delight.
Thank you so much for coming and talking to us.
Ellie Williams: I know.
Rupert Isaacson: It's
Ellie Williams: been wonderful.
Thank you so much.
Oh, and
Rupert Isaacson: remind us again, there's this DDP conference in
Nottingham in the UK, right?
Yes.
Ellie Williams: Yes.
And I think it's the 22nd and 23rd of September.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So DDP conference, people can type that in.
Ellie Williams: It's the, hold on, 23rd and 24th.
It's the Monday and Tuesday.
Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: And where in Nottingham is it?
Is it a college or something?
It's at
Ellie Williams: the conference centre.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Ellie Williams: East Midlands Conference Centre, I think.
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
Well, we've got a hospital place not far from there, so I'm going
to see if I can, if I can connect.
Ellie Williams: Yeah, brilliant.
It's going to be absolutely amazing.
It's going to be, I'm excited.
It's been a lot of thought and effort going into it and the the
breakdown of all the presentations that will be coming out shortly.
Rupert Isaacson: There's a lot of people in the UK doing DDP.
Ellie Williams: Yes, huge contingent in the UK.
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: I'm going to look into this more.
Thank you for joining me on to it.
I had no idea.
That's why I do this so I can learn.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ellie Williams: Brilliant.
Thank you so much.
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.
Ellie Williams: Fantastic to catch up with you Ruth.
Rupert Isaacson: Likewise.
All right.
Well, I hope it won't be too long before I see you.
thank you for joining us.
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
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