WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:41.775 --> 00:01:42.331 CJ: We're live, 00:01:42.851 --> 00:01:43.131 Duke: Okay. 00:01:43.691 --> 00:01:46.011 CJ: not live currently, just, you know, recording. 00:01:46.551 --> 00:01:50.101 Duke: Oh, Someday we'll get this smooth. 00:01:50.111 --> 00:01:52.351 Someday after we're past our hundredth episode, hopefully. 00:01:53.281 --> 00:01:59.251 Carleen: This is where we start to hear Robert talking about, um, who, 00:02:00.251 --> 00:02:01.961 who has access to what, and who 00:02:01.991 --> 00:02:02.371 Duke: Oh, 00:02:03.391 --> 00:02:03.631 Carleen: Woohoo. 00:02:03.791 --> 00:02:03.971 Duke: no. 00:02:03.971 --> 00:02:09.491 That was, that was then we put, we put after, after we put the before, after 00:02:09.501 --> 00:02:12.781 like that scene from space balls, you're looking at now, but what about then? 00:02:13.671 --> 00:02:15.191 We missed it just now. 00:02:17.531 --> 00:02:18.901 Ah, okay. 00:02:18.901 --> 00:02:19.671 Well, we're live. 00:02:19.731 --> 00:02:20.971 And what are we talking about today? 00:02:21.586 --> 00:02:22.066 . CJ: All right, Duke. 00:02:22.066 --> 00:02:25.066 Today, we're going to talk about managing customer expectations. 00:02:25.221 --> 00:02:26.111 Duke: It sounds like a lot of fun. 00:02:26.121 --> 00:02:27.471 Sounds also very handy. 00:02:28.066 --> 00:02:30.916 CJ: Oh, let me tell you, I think it's something that we all need to know. 00:02:31.106 --> 00:02:34.386 , and I think, you get better at it, the more experience you have in the ecosystem. 00:02:34.576 --> 00:02:38.866 But even if you have a lot of experience in the ecosystem, there can still be some 00:02:38.866 --> 00:02:40.696 instances where things don't go your way. 00:02:41.081 --> 00:02:41.761 Duke: Oh, for sure. 00:02:41.851 --> 00:02:45.961 , and since I don't want people to just take advice from me, a dummy, we brought in 00:02:45.961 --> 00:02:47.641 some hired guns for this episode, didn't 00:02:47.771 --> 00:02:48.401 CJ: Oh yeah! 00:02:49.091 --> 00:02:49.891 Oh yeah! 00:02:50.131 --> 00:02:50.821 Who we got, dude? 00:02:51.661 --> 00:02:53.151 Duke: We got Carleen Carter. 00:02:54.671 --> 00:02:55.831 It's still Carter, right? 00:02:56.991 --> 00:02:58.661 I was like, which last name do I use? 00:02:59.341 --> 00:03:01.791 Carleen: Well, formerly Carleen Greenlee. 00:03:02.371 --> 00:03:06.401 I made a name and now I am, , Carleen Carter. 00:03:06.541 --> 00:03:07.511 That's my married name. 00:03:07.711 --> 00:03:12.701 So I always thought I did not want to change my name from Carleen Greenlee 00:03:12.701 --> 00:03:16.111 because I felt like the double E's everywhere just kind of flowed so well. 00:03:16.591 --> 00:03:20.701 But then I met my future husband and Car Car sounds pretty nice. 00:03:21.841 --> 00:03:21.971 Duke: car. 00:03:22.191 --> 00:03:22.661 Carleen: Yeah, 00:03:23.141 --> 00:03:23.791 CJ: Nice. 00:03:23.941 --> 00:03:24.451 Duke: That's funny. 00:03:25.001 --> 00:03:25.191 Carleen: work with that. 00:03:26.981 --> 00:03:32.551 CJ: So Carleen is, , very special, , because she is our first CMA that 00:03:32.551 --> 00:03:34.781 we've had , , on the pod, I do believe. 00:03:34.901 --> 00:03:35.641 Carleen: I'm the only one. 00:03:36.371 --> 00:03:36.621 CJ: I 00:03:36.741 --> 00:03:38.421 Carleen: Or so far, I guess I'm 00:03:38.421 --> 00:03:39.281 Duke: Yeah, so far. 00:03:39.951 --> 00:03:42.461 , but also, , one of the first CMAs ever, right? 00:03:42.701 --> 00:03:43.481 CJ: absolutely. 00:03:43.951 --> 00:03:51.511 Carleen: Yes, I was in the pilot cohort in 2019 with 24 other folks. 00:03:52.541 --> 00:03:55.431 Duke: been like a CMA for longer than some people have been in the game. 00:03:56.491 --> 00:03:58.051 Carleen: Oh, a little bit , I guess so. 00:03:58.218 --> 00:03:59.268 CJ: that sounds groundbreaking. 00:03:59.268 --> 00:04:02.758 So tell us a little bit about the pilot actually, before we get into the meat 00:04:02.808 --> 00:04:04.708 of talking about customer expectations. 00:04:04.708 --> 00:04:06.978 I think , tell us a little bit about the CMA pilot. 00:04:06.988 --> 00:04:07.898 That's kind of unique. 00:04:08.408 --> 00:04:11.108 Carleen: Well, actually that is kind of about managing 00:04:11.108 --> 00:04:12.728 customer expectations, so in this 00:04:12.878 --> 00:04:13.698 CJ: Oh yeah. 00:04:14.058 --> 00:04:17.341 Carleen: the cohort, all of the attendees, were the customers. 00:04:17.761 --> 00:04:22.571 ServiceNow was the, , service deliverer, and they were just starting 00:04:22.571 --> 00:04:26.971 to figure out that they wanted to have these elite certifications that 00:04:26.976 --> 00:04:32.551 are different than just, , something like a, CSA system administrator or. 00:04:33.086 --> 00:04:37.306 A CAD application developer that are, , exams that you go and you 00:04:37.306 --> 00:04:40.876 take somewhere or you do with all the cameras facing you at your home. 00:04:41.646 --> 00:04:45.456 , , both the certified master architect and certified technical architect, 00:04:45.476 --> 00:04:47.086 our cohort based programs. 00:04:47.096 --> 00:04:50.266 So you meet with your cohort every week and you get a presentation 00:04:50.646 --> 00:04:55.346 from one of your other cohort members or from ServiceNow and, 00:04:55.596 --> 00:04:59.986 . I think CTA is 3 months long , and CMA is 6 months long. 00:05:00.216 --> 00:05:05.366 And at the end of both of them, you do a present one or more presentations 00:05:05.366 --> 00:05:10.176 to a board of your peers that have already graduated from the program. 00:05:10.426 --> 00:05:13.216 , and so it's, it's definitely different than, just taking a 00:05:13.216 --> 00:05:15.316 multiple choice test by which. 00:05:15.489 --> 00:05:16.749 there's nothing to snuff about there 00:05:16.884 --> 00:05:17.354 Duke: we know. 00:05:17.374 --> 00:05:17.594 Yeah. 00:05:18.864 --> 00:05:19.794 CJ: Absolutely. 00:05:20.669 --> 00:05:25.129 Carleen: but since I was in the pilot cohort and as you can imagine for the, 00:05:25.239 --> 00:05:32.859 top CMA that they invited several people who have been in the ecosystem for a while 00:05:32.989 --> 00:05:35.389 and probably had pretty high expectations. 00:05:36.369 --> 00:05:39.289 And they're also trying to develop the program at the same time. 00:05:39.659 --> 00:05:44.049 We were all very, very opinionated and not afraid to share our opinions in that and 00:05:44.774 --> 00:05:47.084 , Julian Mills was running it at that point. 00:05:47.124 --> 00:05:48.284 And God bless him. 00:05:48.464 --> 00:05:52.684 I think he rolled his eyes at us so many times, but it's really, really 00:05:52.684 --> 00:05:56.374 awesome to see where those two programs have, , what they've evolved into. 00:05:56.784 --> 00:05:59.484 , they're not that different from before, but they've, they're 00:05:59.484 --> 00:06:03.034 learning things, every new cohort and making changes along the way. 00:06:03.434 --> 00:06:04.184 So that's great. 00:06:04.706 --> 00:06:05.576 CJ: No, that's awesome. 00:06:07.596 --> 00:06:11.216 So now that you've been a CMA for, did I hear it right? 00:06:11.226 --> 00:06:11.806 Five years? 00:06:12.386 --> 00:06:12.806 Was it? 00:06:13.161 --> 00:06:13.531 Carleen: Yeah. 00:06:13.601 --> 00:06:14.301 2019. 00:06:14.856 --> 00:06:15.176 CJ: Yeah. 00:06:15.426 --> 00:06:19.996 So now that you've been a CMA for about five years, tell us how that skillset 00:06:20.406 --> 00:06:22.826 helps, , when you're dealing with your customers. 00:06:23.128 --> 00:06:23.338 Carleen: Yeah. 00:06:23.338 --> 00:06:25.078 So the CMA is really. 00:06:25.583 --> 00:06:30.823 Meant take a much higher level outlook on an entire project. 00:06:31.163 --> 00:06:34.963 They really are responsible for the success of. 00:06:35.608 --> 00:06:39.968 Everything from end to end, and that includes things like governance and, 00:06:40.348 --> 00:06:42.458 , organizational change management. 00:06:42.858 --> 00:06:49.428 , and they may lean on additional resources for some of that really deep. 00:06:50.048 --> 00:06:54.248 Technical expertise, but a lot of the also have deep technical 00:06:54.318 --> 00:06:56.598 expertise in certain domains as well. 00:06:57.048 --> 00:06:58.308 , but they're really. 00:06:58.823 --> 00:07:02.533 Responsible for , making sure that all of the elements work together. 00:07:02.663 --> 00:07:08.303 and that we're doing the right thing for the customer, not just to get to 00:07:08.303 --> 00:07:12.953 that go live day, but also that the customer is still going to be happy with 00:07:12.953 --> 00:07:16.233 what they have in 3 months, 6 months. 00:07:16.483 --> 00:07:19.773 In 3 years now, there may be some additional projects in between 00:07:19.773 --> 00:07:23.703 now, and the end of 3 years, but, the customer's not doing anything. 00:07:23.703 --> 00:07:26.953 That's going to trip them up and not be able to be happy at the end of 00:07:26.953 --> 00:07:28.703 those 3 years or even beyond that. 00:07:29.483 --> 00:07:32.363 CJ: That's a good segue for actually, , getting to the meat of this episode, 00:07:32.373 --> 00:07:34.453 which is managing customer expectations. 00:07:34.453 --> 00:07:34.723 Right? 00:07:34.943 --> 00:07:38.453 And so one of the things that you just said that really took me back, right? 00:07:38.453 --> 00:07:41.263 Is that, doing the right thing for the long term health , of the customer. 00:07:41.333 --> 00:07:46.573 ? And , how that can sometimes put you At opposite ends with the customer 00:07:46.783 --> 00:07:52.353 when they're focusing, maybe something short term or focusing on a thing that 00:07:52.463 --> 00:07:54.299 might necessarily be best, practice. 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:58.079 And that, you know, 6 months a year down the line is just going 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.389 to create a whole lot of tech debt for them that they won't be able to 00:08:01.389 --> 00:08:03.509 necessarily build their way out of. 00:08:28.044 --> 00:08:31.674 Carleen: company, we are a product company that has apps in the store. 00:08:31.674 --> 00:08:34.384 So our scope is much smaller, but. 00:08:34.689 --> 00:08:37.539 The overall outlook is the same. 00:08:37.539 --> 00:08:41.559 not only do we want to make sure that we're doing things that are best practice 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:46.443 from a ServiceNow platform perspective, we also need to, have an eye on our own 00:08:46.453 --> 00:08:51.223 roadmap and making sure that we're not doing something that the, customer, , Is 00:08:51.223 --> 00:08:56.303 not going to be happy with, , when our next store app release comes out 00:08:56.413 --> 00:08:58.183 and we've got a bunch of new features. 00:08:58.436 --> 00:09:02.703 , and so I think that understanding where they're coming from, because 00:09:02.713 --> 00:09:04.863 they don't understand any of that. 00:09:04.903 --> 00:09:10.053 Anything that I just said, they understand . where they're doing this today, whatever 00:09:10.053 --> 00:09:14.253 this, the scope is of, the, , the project where they're doing this today 00:09:14.253 --> 00:09:16.453 and the capabilities of that thing. 00:09:16.903 --> 00:09:20.193 And I'm specifically not saying that application 00:09:20.193 --> 00:09:22.683 because sometimes it's Excel or 00:09:22.898 --> 00:09:22.968 CJ: Hey. 00:09:23.673 --> 00:09:25.823 Carleen: paper or, , some other. 00:09:26.303 --> 00:09:30.533 , thing that's not, we're not like taking it from one piece of software and putting 00:09:30.533 --> 00:09:32.073 it into another piece of software. 00:09:32.573 --> 00:09:34.273 And that's really, , that's what they know. 00:09:34.283 --> 00:09:35.703 That's what their context is. 00:09:35.953 --> 00:09:38.433 That's where their requirements are coming from. 00:09:38.433 --> 00:09:39.983 That's where their pain points are. 00:09:40.623 --> 00:09:46.710 And so they don't necessarily know that's something that they're asking for. 00:09:46.710 --> 00:09:50.100 could potentially hurt them in the long term. 00:09:50.550 --> 00:09:54.870 And so you have to, to navigate that and try to help them understand, 00:09:54.880 --> 00:09:57.630 because,, a lot of times the people that you're working with that these 00:09:57.630 --> 00:10:00.616 requirements for, are not, developers. 00:10:00.666 --> 00:10:01.491 They're not. 00:10:01.931 --> 00:10:06.661 a little bit different than within ITSM, but sometimes, , if you're working in HRSD 00:10:06.701 --> 00:10:11.791 or in customer support, they're not even necessarily people that work on systems 00:10:11.791 --> 00:10:13.271 and configuring systems all the time. 00:10:13.271 --> 00:10:14.774 Yeah, 00:10:15.196 --> 00:10:17.596 Duke: of harm, like this could be harmful for you. 00:10:18.026 --> 00:10:21.296 , I'm finding that the new people that I'm mentoring. 00:10:21.585 --> 00:10:26.651 need to understand that they're not even going to give you exact requirements. 00:10:26.651 --> 00:10:27.101 Right? 00:10:27.171 --> 00:10:30.801 So I'm teaching, I'm teaching classes on queries right now and, 00:10:30.971 --> 00:10:34.271 you teaching them to recognize the difference and opportunities in 00:10:34.271 --> 00:10:36.241 terms of like using, , say relative. 00:10:36.556 --> 00:10:39.706 When you're making a query for dates, . , most of them want to put 00:10:39.706 --> 00:10:43.186 in hard code dates and I'm like, you got to use this relative operator. 00:10:43.206 --> 00:10:46.276 , but the client won't tell you that that's the way it should be built because they're 00:10:46.276 --> 00:10:49.093 not service now people a lot of the times. 00:10:49.173 --> 00:10:51.283 And so you've got to role play it in your head. 00:10:52.688 --> 00:10:52.848 Right. 00:10:52.848 --> 00:10:56.798 But long before they ask you for something that will damage them, they 00:10:56.798 --> 00:11:01.885 will ask for something that is just not expressed in a service now way. 00:11:02.885 --> 00:11:04.985 And it's, that's on you. 00:11:04.995 --> 00:11:07.015 Like , you've got to bridge that gap for them. 00:11:07.505 --> 00:11:08.745 That's not a them problem. 00:11:09.020 --> 00:11:09.600 Carleen: Exactly. 00:11:09.630 --> 00:11:13.370 I won't say they're never, never say never, but at this point in 00:11:13.370 --> 00:11:16.900 the project, they are likely not speaking in ServiceNow terms. 00:11:17.560 --> 00:11:22.680 , Even if they have maybe used other pieces of ServiceNow, especially as a 00:11:22.680 --> 00:11:27.630 requester side, they're still not going to likely be speaking in ServiceNow terms. 00:11:28.310 --> 00:11:32.780 When I do my like introductions at the very, very beginning of the project. 00:11:32.905 --> 00:11:38.351 for years I've been saying, I'm in charge of ensuring that what we're 00:11:38.351 --> 00:11:44.311 delivering to you is scalable, maintainable, upgradable, all the ables. 00:11:44.741 --> 00:11:49.631 We want, we want this to be a long term success for you. 00:11:50.121 --> 00:11:52.821 And so like, I like planting those seeds very, very early. 00:11:53.411 --> 00:11:57.051 Cause that means like, they don't know it, but they, that means sometimes 00:11:57.061 --> 00:12:00.131 that I'm going to be pushing back on something that you're asking for. 00:12:00.821 --> 00:12:05.221 Not because I don't want to do it, but because there might actually 00:12:05.231 --> 00:12:10.075 be a more efficient technical way to do it or something that is, just 00:12:10.095 --> 00:12:12.355 better for the long term success. 00:12:12.445 --> 00:12:13.435 Cause I think you're right. 00:12:13.890 --> 00:12:17.720 Robert is, they're going to say, well, I need a report that goes 00:12:17.730 --> 00:12:20.650 from, , October 1st to October 31st. 00:12:21.220 --> 00:12:24.730 And you kind of have to turn around and go, okay, so are you actually 00:12:24.730 --> 00:12:31.240 asking for a report for the last month and that whatever month I'm in, 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:32.850 which currently we're in November. 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.490 When I flip over to December, are you expecting that report to then 00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:42.520 reflect November or still stay stuck on October 1st through October 00:12:42.570 --> 00:12:45.980 31st, 2023, for in perpetuity? 00:12:46.420 --> 00:12:48.850 Duke: Yeah fixed dates versus variable dates right. 00:12:49.060 --> 00:12:49.200 Carleen: hmm. 00:13:00.704 --> 00:13:03.054 CJ: ensuring the long term, health of the platform, right? 00:13:03.264 --> 00:13:06.698 And sometimes that means saving the customer for themselves, either because 00:13:06.778 --> 00:13:10.018 They have enough knowledge or because the knowledge that they have , is 00:13:10.018 --> 00:13:11.468 knowledge that would get them in trouble. 00:13:11.718 --> 00:13:15.028 . And I think ultimately, like when you're an architect, you look at 00:13:15.028 --> 00:13:16.858 the project from that level, right? 00:13:16.858 --> 00:13:20.328 It's like, what's going to be the sustainable and successful 00:13:20.328 --> 00:13:23.748 way for us to manage instance going into the future versus. 00:13:24.278 --> 00:13:25.338 Here's six stories. 00:13:25.338 --> 00:13:26.818 Let me just go ahead and build them out. 00:13:27.223 --> 00:13:29.593 Carleen: The old can does not equal should 00:13:30.078 --> 00:13:30.628 CJ: Yes. 00:13:30.728 --> 00:13:31.668 Yes, absolutely. 00:13:31.668 --> 00:13:33.638 And that's so relevant in service too. 00:13:33.638 --> 00:13:33.868 Right? 00:13:33.868 --> 00:13:39.108 Because how often can you actually say no, the platform cannot do this, 00:13:40.148 --> 00:13:46.198 Carleen: Not very often, although I do try to craft certain things like, well, 00:13:46.288 --> 00:13:51.404 the platform doesn't really support that interface right now, or, that's even 00:13:51.414 --> 00:13:56.444 a little bit like more on the no side or, , the cannot side, but, , that feature 00:13:56.464 --> 00:14:00.344 that you're asking for is , we've heard that it's coming in the next release. 00:14:00.894 --> 00:14:04.494 And is it critical that you have that now? 00:14:04.804 --> 00:14:10.954 Or could we wait until the next release and then you get a non custom version 00:14:10.984 --> 00:14:16.184 of it so that it's not something that you own forever um, and have to 00:14:16.184 --> 00:14:19.614 maintain forever because you don't want to add things to your plate. 00:14:20.305 --> 00:14:42.749 CJ: Yeah. 00:14:45.414 --> 00:14:46.144 Duke: your money kid? 00:14:46.501 --> 00:14:48.571 I mean, have you guys ever been on a project where you got like, how 00:14:48.571 --> 00:14:52.901 should we say a very enthusiastic VA and the customer will be well, we're 00:14:52.901 --> 00:14:55.601 wondering if the, if the application could do this and they're so stoked 00:14:55.611 --> 00:14:58.541 to be on service now, they're like, yeah, of course it can, yeah, yeah. 00:14:58.901 --> 00:15:02.241 But then , they don't counterbalance with the, , if we stop right here 00:15:02.241 --> 00:15:05.911 with what you're previously told us to do and spend a month on this. 00:15:06.376 --> 00:15:08.166 Yes, we can get that result for you. 00:15:08.319 --> 00:15:11.459 , and so I guess just going back to the theme of managing expectations 00:15:11.499 --> 00:15:14.893 is real clear with your yeses 00:15:15.296 --> 00:15:15.726 Carleen: Yeah. 00:15:15.936 --> 00:15:17.736 Duke: and then add conditions to them. 00:15:17.789 --> 00:15:18.509 very quickly. 00:15:18.956 --> 00:15:22.060 yes, under these conditions, we can do that. 00:15:22.248 --> 00:15:23.691 CJ: yeah, I actually know what you mean. 00:15:23.805 --> 00:15:25.295 , I've been guilty of this, right? 00:15:25.295 --> 00:15:25.495 Like when I 00:15:25.785 --> 00:15:29.055 first started in the service now ecosystem, right, I was a customer 00:15:29.065 --> 00:15:33.065 and , , just getting used to the platform and using the platform coming 00:15:33.065 --> 00:15:37.645 from, the previous platform Which is, , BMC, , magic, , and , going 00:15:37.645 --> 00:15:40.565 out and talking to everyone else in the company about it, right? 00:15:40.921 --> 00:15:44.411 Once ServiceNow enters your enterprise, you kind of become , the 00:15:44.421 --> 00:15:46.271 chief, , ServiceNow evangelist, 00:15:46.551 --> 00:15:46.701 right? 00:15:46.776 --> 00:15:47.126 Duke: Yeah. 00:15:49.951 --> 00:15:51.701 CJ: I'm going around like group to group, right? 00:15:51.701 --> 00:15:54.031 Like in, in selling and showing people the thing and they're 00:15:54.201 --> 00:15:55.481 throwing out all these use cases. 00:15:55.481 --> 00:15:56.701 I'm like, yeah, we could do that. 00:15:56.791 --> 00:15:58.011 Of course we can do that. 00:15:58.151 --> 00:15:58.621 Yeah. 00:15:58.841 --> 00:15:59.401 Yeah. 00:15:59.581 --> 00:16:00.301 You know, 00:16:00.941 --> 00:16:03.631 Duke: Oh, I heard this one is a feature that you think is cool, too. 00:16:03.641 --> 00:16:07.531 Like, not just them, but you think it's like, oh, yeah, we totally can do that. 00:16:07.541 --> 00:16:08.851 It would be so awesome. 00:16:09.596 --> 00:16:12.276 Carleen: Or something that you've had a recent success in. 00:16:12.686 --> 00:16:17.816 Like, you know, me right now, 15 plus years into my ServiceNow career, 00:16:18.046 --> 00:16:20.636 I'm just getting into UI Builder. 00:16:20.636 --> 00:16:22.746 And it is, like a completely different language. 00:16:22.756 --> 00:16:30.096 But every time I get one component to work, I start telling everybody about it. 00:16:30.096 --> 00:16:34.030 Because I'm so excited , that I was able to achieve a little bit of success. 00:16:34.140 --> 00:16:39.446 And then of course, building a new interface, a new workspace or portal 00:16:39.446 --> 00:16:43.420 evens, because you can do that in UIB, is not a small amount of effort. 00:16:43.880 --> 00:16:46.120 And you really have to approach it. 00:16:46.585 --> 00:16:50.601 With more vigor than just, right click, personalize, or not even 00:16:50.761 --> 00:16:53.261 personalize, configure form layout. 00:16:53.561 --> 00:16:55.931 Personalize was what it was like back in 2009. 00:16:57.381 --> 00:17:01.321 Right, right click, configure form layout or form design, and then 00:17:01.321 --> 00:17:02.481 you're like, oh, I need a new field. 00:17:02.481 --> 00:17:05.531 Let me just throw it on there, and then it, boop, it's already on your form. 00:17:06.101 --> 00:17:11.216 And doing things like that in UI Builder take a little bit more A not just a 00:17:11.216 --> 00:17:16.456 little bit, some definitely more effort to achieve than just right click configure. 00:17:16.456 --> 00:17:17.126 Mm hmm, 00:17:17.715 --> 00:17:20.295 Duke: was kind of wondering if we could maybe talk about, like, how 00:17:20.305 --> 00:17:22.115 do expectations get out of whack? 00:17:22.315 --> 00:17:25.165 there's at the start when it's like, okay, I'm not a service now person. 00:17:25.165 --> 00:17:29.265 So I'm clearly not going to explain this to you in a service now way and 00:17:29.265 --> 00:17:31.135 therefore get into my head and role play. 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:35.970 Me, but even the best of us have been on, which would be YouTube. 00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:39.610 Uh, even the best of us have been on projects where it's like, everything's 00:17:39.610 --> 00:17:43.150 going well, we have a clear understanding that we're doing X, Y, and Z. 00:17:43.150 --> 00:17:44.830 And then you show up to the meeting to show it off. 00:17:44.870 --> 00:17:45.750 And I was like, where's ABC? 00:17:46.293 --> 00:17:46.613 Carleen: yes, 00:17:46.623 --> 00:17:47.893 Duke: does that, how does that 00:17:48.533 --> 00:17:51.873 Carleen: really, really important to document the decisions 00:17:52.056 --> 00:17:54.816 that are made, especially when there's a fork in the road. 00:17:56.065 --> 00:17:59.930 or you're trying to guide them towards a best practice towards whatever. 00:18:00.010 --> 00:18:02.140 and certainly the level of. 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:07.520 Documentation of those decisions, that the more detail that you have around 00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:12.940 them, the more they will help you in case you have to refer back to them. 00:18:13.092 --> 00:18:17.260 but also there's resource requirements to be able to make 00:18:17.260 --> 00:18:20.560 sure that you're documenting all of those things and staying on your. 00:18:21.469 --> 00:18:22.149 timeline. 00:18:22.409 --> 00:18:26.769 , we have Projects with our customers that start out with a statement of work. 00:18:27.139 --> 00:18:29.692 And, it doesn't really matter. 00:18:29.919 --> 00:18:35.599 I think sometimes customers misunderstand, like it's not that anybody's trying 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:39.816 to, sell you one thing and then, , switch bait you to another thing, but 00:18:39.816 --> 00:18:47.096 there's only so much information that can be shared during a sales cycle. 00:18:47.566 --> 00:18:47.896 And. 00:18:48.077 --> 00:18:52.577 Immediately, the people that are on the project and the that is on the 00:18:52.577 --> 00:18:56.797 vendor side and the customer side, are now like, they're going to kick off 00:18:56.797 --> 00:19:00.237 their project and then they're going to start workshops or meetings or 00:19:00.237 --> 00:19:04.217 whatever to review, , what the customer has today or their requirements. 00:19:04.757 --> 00:19:07.477 There is going to be infinitely more information. 00:19:07.832 --> 00:19:12.262 shared during those sessions and to the people who actually 00:19:12.282 --> 00:19:16.692 are going to be responsible for shaping how the whole project goes. 00:19:17.417 --> 00:19:17.667 Duke: Yeah. 00:19:17.667 --> 00:19:23.292 Yeah. 00:19:23.332 --> 00:19:26.302 Carleen: details of what you thought you were going to do in the statement of work, 00:19:26.302 --> 00:19:30.172 which is why it's really, really important to think of your vendor as a partner, 00:19:30.892 --> 00:19:31.172 Duke: Yeah, 00:19:31.302 --> 00:19:32.442 Carleen: customer as a partner. 00:19:32.746 --> 00:19:36.186 Duke: like, when I write scopes, I tell people right up front that scopes 00:19:36.266 --> 00:19:38.589 are, like, hardness is brittleness. 00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:39.949 Right? 00:19:39.959 --> 00:19:44.782 So we can make the parameters of this very hard, but what we have 00:19:44.782 --> 00:19:47.056 inside has to be very well known. 00:19:47.056 --> 00:19:50.286 If there's any of these things in here that we just kind of think we know. 00:19:50.286 --> 00:19:50.411 Thank you. 00:19:50.981 --> 00:19:54.031 Or we haven't done before, we have to flag those as risks to, 00:19:54.141 --> 00:19:55.811 to the scope right out the gate. 00:19:56.451 --> 00:19:58.821 It's like, we are going to build a feature that does X, Y, Z. 00:19:58.931 --> 00:20:00.101 Have we even done that before? 00:20:00.181 --> 00:20:00.851 No, we haven't. 00:20:00.881 --> 00:20:01.961 Well, therefore it's risky. 00:20:02.164 --> 00:20:05.404 and I only did this once, so I don't want to make it sound like I do this thing and 00:20:05.404 --> 00:20:10.881 I'm like, but my dad did love it is that I annotated in the scopes, the components 00:20:10.881 --> 00:20:12.471 of the scope that were most at risk. 00:20:13.761 --> 00:20:14.901 So I had like training. 00:20:14.931 --> 00:20:17.677 It's like, I think training is going to take us two weeks, but we 00:20:17.677 --> 00:20:19.547 could end up going deeper on stuff. 00:20:19.757 --> 00:20:21.108 Could be the people just don't get it. 00:20:21.144 --> 00:20:25.121 so, this has caused to possibly inflate. 00:20:25.151 --> 00:20:29.661 And then it was just, they knew the magnitude of cost on the 00:20:29.661 --> 00:20:33.211 scope, but they also knew where it was most likely to expand. 00:20:34.186 --> 00:20:37.676 Carleen: Yeah, I think that kind of goes back to what you were talking about. 00:20:37.746 --> 00:20:41.542 , the person who's really, really excited about the new feature or 00:20:41.542 --> 00:20:45.342 the customer who's like, I just saw ServiceNow webinar and they said that 00:20:45.342 --> 00:20:50.482 we can do all these things and can we do all of these things you, kind 00:20:50.482 --> 00:20:56.376 of have to come back and say, yes, ServiceNow can do all of those things. 00:20:56.549 --> 00:20:58.229 yes, we could. 00:20:58.484 --> 00:21:00.414 Add all of those things to our project. 00:21:00.464 --> 00:21:05.154 in order to stick with the timeline that we projected, we did not have. 00:21:05.641 --> 00:21:10.161 maybe two or three of those things that they're talking about in our plan, and 00:21:10.171 --> 00:21:14.467 we could include them, but it would require some horse trading, of, okay, 00:21:14.467 --> 00:21:17.967 well, we're either going to maybe push out the timeline because we decided 00:21:17.967 --> 00:21:21.737 that these new features are really critical to the success and adoption 00:21:22.067 --> 00:21:28.317 of our go live, or maybe we plan to do 10 catalog items and these 2 features 00:21:28.347 --> 00:21:32.217 are going to be equivalent to the level of effort to build for those. 00:21:32.572 --> 00:21:36.942 So we're gonna go live with a set of six in these new features, but then 00:21:36.942 --> 00:21:40.482 there's four catalog items that are not gonna be built as part of this project. 00:21:40.572 --> 00:21:46.032 And we, we can put them in as, , a fast follower, SOW to release quickly after 00:21:46.032 --> 00:21:49.439 go live, or, we'll put them in phase two. 00:21:49.439 --> 00:21:54.369 If you already have a phase two planned, there's always things that can be. 00:21:54.776 --> 00:22:01.266 traded in and out and things that can adjust, but where you get into trouble, 00:22:01.266 --> 00:22:06.736 and I think this is the overall theme is when the expectations are that you 00:22:06.756 --> 00:22:08.486 said, yes, ServiceNow could do that. 00:22:08.526 --> 00:22:12.236 And all of the sudden now, those things are immediately included 00:22:12.246 --> 00:22:13.706 and nothing else changes. 00:22:14.266 --> 00:22:18.856 And so it's really, really important to address those early on. 00:22:19.064 --> 00:22:23.031 very important person to me told me at one point that bad news 00:22:23.061 --> 00:22:24.631 does not get better with age. 00:22:24.641 --> 00:22:25.811 It's like stinky cheese 00:22:26.316 --> 00:22:26.476 Duke: Uh 00:22:26.806 --> 00:22:28.170 CJ: Heh, 00:22:28.181 --> 00:22:33.171 Carleen: here and stinkier, and it's not going to get easier to deliver bad news. 00:22:33.411 --> 00:22:36.191 It's only going to get worse because likely that news is going 00:22:36.191 --> 00:22:38.061 to get stinkier and stinkier. 00:22:38.551 --> 00:22:41.741 So if you are honest and. 00:22:41.951 --> 00:22:46.141 you have a good partnership with your customer, or your customer has a good 00:22:46.141 --> 00:22:50.634 partnership with the vendor and, then having those conversations, even if 00:22:50.634 --> 00:22:53.322 they are not good news, becomes easier. 00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:59.136 It's not that 1 side or another is all of a sudden trying to tank the project. 00:22:59.462 --> 00:23:05.236 It's that what do we need to agree on here in order to be successful? 00:23:05.236 --> 00:23:05.496 Yeah. 00:23:06.426 --> 00:23:07.826 CJ: Yeah, I like that. 00:23:07.826 --> 00:23:11.026 What, what do we need to agree on here in order to be successful? 00:23:11.456 --> 00:23:15.076 Uh, one of the things that I try to agree on with my clients before we start 00:23:15.076 --> 00:23:17.336 the project is that scope creep kills 00:23:17.356 --> 00:23:18.116 projects. 00:23:18.606 --> 00:23:18.986 Right. 00:23:19.036 --> 00:23:23.446 Um, We don't want to add anything additional to this project. 00:23:23.536 --> 00:23:27.116 before we can release the things that you actually want. 00:23:27.299 --> 00:23:30.416 And like you said, if it's a heart necessity, then we do 00:23:30.416 --> 00:23:31.566 have to do that horse trading. 00:23:31.566 --> 00:23:35.806 Well, I dropped this out and we're going to add this, but then I also let them 00:23:35.806 --> 00:23:39.086 know that, Hey, then there's a little bit of buffer here too, that needs to go in. 00:23:39.486 --> 00:23:45.186 Because now you're asking for a different project than we prepared for, right? 00:23:45.306 --> 00:23:49.647 Carleen: Yeah, and that's a really good, point to pause, as You know, I 00:23:49.647 --> 00:23:53.687 mean, you guys essentially serve as your own PMs, your own project managers. 00:23:54.007 --> 00:23:56.747 I fortunately do not have to do that job. 00:23:57.887 --> 00:23:59.367 Not one of my fortes. 00:24:00.187 --> 00:24:02.617 Um, and I do love my engagement managers to death. 00:24:03.117 --> 00:24:06.877 , but that's a really important moment to pause and review 00:24:07.507 --> 00:24:08.937 the original scope of work. 00:24:09.212 --> 00:24:15.482 And if the, now the new plan is materially, materially changing from 00:24:15.742 --> 00:24:20.752 that point, even if you plan to do nothing about the overall price of the 00:24:20.752 --> 00:24:25.129 project, that's when I kind of like, raise up my hand to my engagement 00:24:25.129 --> 00:24:29.379 manager and my management of like, hey, , we need to try to get a 0 change 00:24:29.379 --> 00:24:33.519 order here, which maybe is part of the project manager mind in, in my head, 00:24:34.364 --> 00:24:38.601 And 0 dollar change order for those who may not understand that means you're 00:24:38.641 --> 00:24:43.961 amending the contract and it is a new, basically a new legal binding contract 00:24:43.961 --> 00:24:48.941 with the changes that you have and the 0 dollar part means that the overall cost. 00:24:49.606 --> 00:24:51.116 CJ: Yeah, and that 0 00:24:51.196 --> 00:24:52.106 change request, right? 00:24:52.116 --> 00:24:56.206 Just really resets everyone's mentality around the project, right? 00:24:56.262 --> 00:25:00.136 so everyone is, we went into this thing started like three, three months. 00:25:00.546 --> 00:25:04.839 going to deliver X, and three months in, we're changing, right? 00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:07.779 We're changing X minus Q plus V. 00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:08.429 Right? 00:25:08.522 --> 00:25:13.836 and everyone needs to really sit down and recontextualize the project 00:25:13.846 --> 00:25:15.436 from that perspective, right? 00:25:15.436 --> 00:25:18.126 This might have been previously integration heavy project. 00:25:18.396 --> 00:25:20.186 Now it's a lot more process heavy, right? 00:25:20.186 --> 00:25:21.366 Because we changed some things. 00:25:21.696 --> 00:25:25.046 So we got one of the things too, that you have to make sure in that situation 00:25:25.046 --> 00:25:29.026 is that you still got The resources assigned to the project, right? 00:25:29.161 --> 00:25:29.371 Carleen: Yeah, 00:25:29.371 --> 00:25:29.751 the 00:25:30.026 --> 00:25:30.586 CJ: sometimes, 00:25:30.636 --> 00:25:31.596 Duke: the right ones too. 00:25:31.596 --> 00:25:31.836 Right? 00:25:31.846 --> 00:25:32.226 Yeah. 00:25:32.531 --> 00:25:35.621 Carleen: resources that build catalog items may not be the same 00:25:35.621 --> 00:25:40.271 resources that are doing that flashy new gen AI integration. 00:25:40.721 --> 00:25:42.861 That the customer is so excited about. 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:43.669 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:44.024 --> 00:25:48.714 Duke: the 1 thing I want people to understand about this is that it's 00:25:48.724 --> 00:25:51.984 not like a service now project is not 1 person sitting with 1 person. 00:25:51.984 --> 00:25:54.504 Like, it's not me with the customer frequently. 00:25:54.504 --> 00:25:58.034 There's like, teams of people involved and all kinds of 00:25:58.084 --> 00:26:00.374 possible interpretations of stuff. 00:26:00.874 --> 00:26:03.964 And so by putting all of this in. 00:26:04.076 --> 00:26:07.206 a document, whether or not there's more money involved, that's 00:26:07.206 --> 00:26:08.856 somebody else's decision, frankly. 00:26:09.106 --> 00:26:12.026 But we all have to come to a new understanding about 00:26:12.036 --> 00:26:13.006 how this is going to go, 00:26:14.551 --> 00:26:18.421 Carleen: yeah, 0 change order, but certainly change orders can actually 00:26:18.421 --> 00:26:20.711 represent a change in the overall cost. 00:26:20.847 --> 00:26:23.287 and I think it's also important to say, so I'm just kind of 00:26:23.297 --> 00:26:24.547 sticking on because you guys are. 00:26:25.097 --> 00:26:27.467 , more independent, and it's easier to refer to you. 00:26:27.947 --> 00:26:32.487 The change is not because Corey or Robert lied to you in the 1st place. 00:26:32.497 --> 00:26:38.387 It's because everybody, all of us, the entire team have learned a lot. 00:26:39.152 --> 00:26:42.512 I learned a lot and we've made decisions based on that learning. 00:26:42.512 --> 00:26:43.682 And goodness. 00:26:43.712 --> 00:26:49.992 Isn't that life like I'm not, to put a, poke at myself here, there 00:26:49.992 --> 00:26:56.172 were probably so many things that I said before I had kids, and I'm not 00:26:56.172 --> 00:26:58.272 gonna let my kid look at an iPad in 00:26:58.272 --> 00:26:58.512 Duke: Ah, 00:26:59.202 --> 00:27:00.882 Carleen: I'm not gonna do this. 00:27:00.882 --> 00:27:02.142 I'm not gonna do that. 00:27:02.142 --> 00:27:02.592 Well. 00:27:03.522 --> 00:27:08.452 I've got two little girls and sometimes I need them to just look at the iPad 00:27:08.972 --> 00:27:14.992 in the restaurant and so I learned a lot that, after actually having 00:27:15.282 --> 00:27:20.232 the kids, that now the shape of my decisions and the things that I was 00:27:20.322 --> 00:27:22.822 vehement about earlier are different. 00:27:23.212 --> 00:27:25.772 And it's kind of the same thing when you get into a project that. 00:27:26.347 --> 00:27:29.207 Again, there's only so much information that can be shared and 00:27:29.207 --> 00:27:32.551 agreed upon and reviewed during a sales cycle and that you're going 00:27:32.551 --> 00:27:35.251 to learn a bunch during the project. 00:27:35.651 --> 00:27:36.101 Um, 00:27:36.481 --> 00:27:36.511 CJ: Okay. 00:27:37.241 --> 00:27:40.321 Carleen: and because the customer, especially during the sales cycle, they're 00:27:40.321 --> 00:27:44.451 telling you what they know, again, from their context, they're going to learn a 00:27:44.451 --> 00:27:46.331 whole bunch about what ServiceNow can do. 00:27:46.431 --> 00:27:50.234 Oh, I didn't realize, even something as simple as it could send out a 00:27:50.234 --> 00:27:52.984 notification when the state of this. 00:27:53.399 --> 00:27:57.729 Task changes, what like, those are the kinds of things that my 00:27:57.729 --> 00:28:03.326 customers are, you know, are, are realizing and, they had no idea. 00:28:03.449 --> 00:28:07.429 and so that's a really small thing, , in theory, creating a new notification 00:28:07.439 --> 00:28:08.729 is, is really, really small. 00:28:08.729 --> 00:28:11.736 But if those are the kinds of things that they're discovering, There's going to 00:28:11.736 --> 00:28:15.611 be revelations all over the place and, 00:28:15.611 --> 00:28:18.591 Duke: got a customer I'm helping do resource management right now. 00:28:18.591 --> 00:28:19.531 And it's at the start. 00:28:19.571 --> 00:28:20.911 It was they swore up and down. 00:28:20.961 --> 00:28:22.471 It's only capacity. 00:28:22.471 --> 00:28:24.541 We're only doing this for capacity, right? 00:28:24.561 --> 00:28:28.431 Until their boss found out, like, whoa, we can do cost modeling with this. 00:28:28.481 --> 00:28:31.221 Like, no, let's just ask them if they can just throw that in. 00:28:31.221 --> 00:28:34.241 I'm like, okay, well, listen, . You can't go from just resource capacity 00:28:34.251 --> 00:28:39.821 modeling to capacity and cost modeling with the understanding that we're working 00:28:39.821 --> 00:28:41.481 on this like five hours a week, right? 00:28:41.531 --> 00:28:43.211 , we've got to fundamentally change the nature of this thing. 00:28:43.916 --> 00:28:48.646 Carleen: and ultimately those decisions and those changes are for 00:28:48.646 --> 00:28:52.516 the success of that customer because. 00:28:53.006 --> 00:28:57.336 That is a pain point clearly for that manager, is the cost modeling. 00:28:57.446 --> 00:28:58.556 He's not able to answer. 00:28:59.176 --> 00:29:03.986 Well, I assume that he was a he, but he's not able to answer questions to 00:29:03.986 --> 00:29:08.826 his management that maybe his management is asking that feature would help 00:29:08.826 --> 00:29:12.036 him manage or would help him answer. 00:29:12.371 --> 00:29:14.521 Duke: That's one trick I have up my sleeve. 00:29:14.521 --> 00:29:20.331 If I feel like it's getting hostile, but uncomfortable is always reframe 00:29:20.341 --> 00:29:22.671 the conversation so that it's not. 00:29:22.851 --> 00:29:23.977 you versus me. 00:29:23.977 --> 00:29:28.167 When there's contention, it's you versus you. 00:29:28.187 --> 00:29:29.567 It's customer versus customer. 00:29:29.567 --> 00:29:31.097 It's not customer versus consultant. 00:29:31.932 --> 00:29:32.312 Carleen: Yeah. 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:37.192 and it's also, it could be a good time to bring in the, Iron Triangle 00:29:37.212 --> 00:29:43.302 because I think people can have something fast and cheap, but not good. 00:29:43.322 --> 00:29:44.522 You can have something 00:29:44.962 --> 00:29:45.412 CJ: Yeah. 00:29:45.502 --> 00:29:45.522 Yeah. 00:29:45.772 --> 00:29:47.772 Carleen: good and cheap, but not fast. 00:29:47.862 --> 00:29:49.222 , you know, the three things there. 00:29:49.242 --> 00:29:51.332 And I think when you, hopefully. 00:29:51.817 --> 00:29:55.017 You know, when you start bringing some of those things into the conversation 00:29:55.017 --> 00:29:57.381 that the customer realizes, yeah, okay. 00:29:57.524 --> 00:29:59.296 the people that I'm working with are human too. 00:29:59.326 --> 00:30:03.806 And , if my management asked for me to come up with something good, 00:30:03.906 --> 00:30:07.666 cheap, and fast at the same time, I would say, whoa, whoa, whoa, 00:30:08.706 --> 00:30:10.026 let's make, let's be reasonable. 00:30:10.026 --> 00:30:10.786 We got to pick two. 00:30:12.756 --> 00:30:38.551 Duke: Sometimes you want. 00:30:38.776 --> 00:30:40.466 CJ: the only thing that matters to them. 00:30:40.936 --> 00:30:41.256 Right. 00:30:41.316 --> 00:30:46.706 And figuring out how to use the product to deliver that inside of their context, 00:30:46.782 --> 00:30:51.899 is the thing that, there makes or breaks whether or not the implementation lives 00:30:51.899 --> 00:30:57.162 up to their expectations and, um, I just think sometimes it's just hard if there's 00:30:57.162 --> 00:31:01.352 an inability to get both to everyone get in the same dictionary when we're talking 00:31:01.352 --> 00:31:03.422 about, you know, communication, right? 00:31:03.422 --> 00:31:03.652 Like, 00:31:03.862 --> 00:31:06.142 when I'm trying to tell them, this is what we're going to do. 00:31:06.142 --> 00:31:08.252 And they're telling me again, back in their words, maybe 00:31:08.252 --> 00:31:11.892 coming from Excel spreadsheet or something that's just Now, right. 00:31:11.892 --> 00:31:13.462 And they're trying to tell me how this works. 00:31:13.462 --> 00:31:14.962 And I'm trying to tell them how service now works. 00:31:15.192 --> 00:31:16.892 And sometimes we can end up talking past each 00:31:16.892 --> 00:31:17.392 other, right? 00:31:17.652 --> 00:31:20.989 Because they're talking to me about their business need, and I'm talking 00:31:20.989 --> 00:31:22.469 to them about their technology. 00:31:22.469 --> 00:31:24.119 So I think it's sometimes important too, 00:31:24.329 --> 00:31:27.569 to make sure we're all talking in the same context at the same time. 00:31:27.569 --> 00:31:28.849 It's a long way to get to that point. 00:31:29.089 --> 00:31:33.109 Um, but I just think it's important, right. 00:31:33.109 --> 00:31:35.389 To make sure that we're all having the same conversation. 00:31:35.529 --> 00:31:38.269 And, and so we can all get to the solution together. 00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:42.729 Carleen: So at the very, very beginning of the project, a lot of times. 00:31:43.309 --> 00:31:46.649 There will be documented business goals and objectives. 00:31:46.789 --> 00:31:49.409 And what are we trying to do with this project? 00:31:49.419 --> 00:31:51.599 , forget about the technology that we're doing it with. 00:31:51.649 --> 00:31:53.759 , what are we trying to do with this project? 00:31:54.049 --> 00:31:58.969 Are we trying to bring more visibility to our leadership of our overall operations? 00:31:58.969 --> 00:32:05.299 Are we trying to make something that is better for end users, uh, requesters than 00:32:05.589 --> 00:32:07.829 a PDF form that they have to fill out? 00:32:07.999 --> 00:32:10.829 , we can go back to that, which sometimes these things. 00:32:11.169 --> 00:32:12.489 are in the statement of work, right? 00:32:12.659 --> 00:32:18.939 You can go back to that, usually less than five bullet point list, and say, 00:32:18.959 --> 00:32:24.379 okay, is this something that is going to make a significant difference in, 00:32:24.569 --> 00:32:26.729 achieving our project objectives? 00:32:26.729 --> 00:32:31.679 And sometimes the answer is yes, and sometimes the answer is, well, maybe 00:32:31.679 --> 00:32:33.679 not, but we'd really like to have it. 00:32:33.749 --> 00:32:38.109 And then we say, okay, well, that's, that's, it's an okay answer to say that. 00:32:38.459 --> 00:32:44.229 , But if we focus on what your original objectives are, then maybe if it's not 00:32:44.549 --> 00:32:48.609 helping us meet one of those, why don't we push that into a phase 2 rather than horse 00:32:48.619 --> 00:32:50.436 trading for something we already, had. 00:32:50.596 --> 00:32:55.336 I think also ServiceNow has, it's changed names over time. 00:32:55.336 --> 00:32:57.096 It was called Innovate at Scale. 00:32:57.451 --> 00:33:01.071 , it was called customization best practices and I think now it's called 00:33:01.071 --> 00:33:05.661 business smart customization or something like that, but they, in their customer 00:33:05.661 --> 00:33:10.117 success center, they have a whole page dedicated to, business smart customization 00:33:10.117 --> 00:33:12.627 and there's like an executive deck. 00:33:12.877 --> 00:33:15.144 There's a, white paper. 00:33:15.241 --> 00:33:18.441 there's a 7 minute video that is totally watchable. 00:33:18.531 --> 00:33:21.251 It's 7 minutes, but you can also watch it on 1. 00:33:21.251 --> 00:33:22.351 5 X or 2 X. 00:33:22.711 --> 00:33:27.801 . And, , and it walks through how to set up the groundwork , for your 00:33:28.041 --> 00:33:35.521 governance of when a requirement comes out that is either going to, of throw 00:33:35.521 --> 00:33:41.081 off maybe the project timeline or the resources that you have, or the scope 00:33:41.081 --> 00:33:45.251 that you have and also all the way down to, , I've got are now a requirement. 00:33:45.251 --> 00:33:47.941 That's a pretty big high level of customization. 00:33:48.011 --> 00:33:52.011 That's going to cause us a lot of tech debt and we measure it against this 00:33:52.011 --> 00:33:57.761 matrix of is this new requirement that's come up or any doesn't have to be new. 00:33:58.171 --> 00:34:02.691 Is it, is it required because of some sort of law? 00:34:02.757 --> 00:34:08.481 or, you know, regulatory body and well, if that's the case, then there might not be 00:34:08.531 --> 00:34:10.821 much that we can do about achieving that. 00:34:11.151 --> 00:34:13.581 , but in, in a lot of cases, those don't work. 00:34:13.601 --> 00:34:16.231 Those are not , very specific about the technical solution. 00:34:16.251 --> 00:34:20.641 So you might be able to creatively figure it out without doing the tech debt, , all 00:34:20.641 --> 00:34:27.001 the way down to, , a level 1 or 0 that's like, this doesn't help any objective. 00:34:27.171 --> 00:34:29.697 It's just something that somebody brought up as. 00:34:30.192 --> 00:34:33.159 As something that they, you know, they saw something, they saw a 00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:36.299 feature that they wanted, but it's not helping our overall goals. 00:34:36.729 --> 00:34:39.219 , it's going to require a lot of customization, but it's not 00:34:39.219 --> 00:34:41.369 actually, helping us in any way. 00:34:41.889 --> 00:34:46.819 , and that way you can, it makes it way less subjective and it makes it seem a 00:34:46.819 --> 00:34:51.966 lot, , less like Carleen, the architect is really, peeing in my materials today. 00:34:51.966 --> 00:34:52.786 She doesn't want me to have anything. 00:34:54.016 --> 00:34:54.886 , and it also helps. 00:34:55.206 --> 00:35:01.172 the customer to realize their context, I think, because, I used to work 00:35:01.172 --> 00:35:03.732 for a desktop outsourcing company. 00:35:04.192 --> 00:35:04.862 , and. 00:35:05.267 --> 00:35:08.117 A lot of people would refer, well, the contract says this and the 00:35:08.117 --> 00:35:10.657 contract says that as a consultant. 00:35:10.667 --> 00:35:17.757 I have now learned to say, can you show me the specific contract language because 00:35:18.407 --> 00:35:21.727 it through the game of telephone and interpretation and all of these kinds 00:35:21.727 --> 00:35:24.637 of things, it might not be as you say. 00:35:24.787 --> 00:35:26.757 So we want to make sure that we are actually following the 00:35:26.757 --> 00:35:29.884 contract because a lot of people will throw that around as well. 00:35:29.974 --> 00:35:33.744 I want this requirement because the contract says this, is that 00:35:33.744 --> 00:35:35.014 what the actual contract says? 00:35:35.014 --> 00:35:35.094 Yes. 00:35:35.287 --> 00:35:38.537 let's make sure that we read it and understand it and follow that to the T. 00:35:40.302 --> 00:35:43.792 Duke: All right, wow, uh, just like that we are at time, 00:35:45.917 --> 00:35:48.257 Carleen: Let's end it on a contractual note. 00:35:50.266 --> 00:35:52.006 Duke: if you want to reach Carleen, we're going to have a link to her 00:35:52.006 --> 00:35:55.806 LinkedIn, , in our description and, , Carleen, any last words? 00:35:56.047 --> 00:35:59.777 CJ: lot. 00:36:00.222 --> 00:36:02.492 Duke: Thank you for joining us last minute, Carleen, really appreciate it. 00:36:03.977 --> 00:36:04.407 CJ: Currently. 00:36:04.577 --> 00:36:04.977 Carleen: Thanks