Career Conversations | S4Ep3: Your financial wellbeing: Tips on owning your financial future

In a world where financial stress is common, the podcast emphasizes the importance of financial literacy and control. Hosted by Anders and featuring financial coach Karen Zukaitis, the discussion offers practical strategies to alleviate financial anxiety and improve well-being. Listeners are encouraged to understand their finances, budget effectively, and seek support from trusted individuals. The podcast highlights that everyone's financial journey is unique and that open conversations about money can reduce feelings of isolation. Ultimately, the goal is to empower individuals to take charge of their financial futures.

Karen Zukaitis is a Financial Coach and Financial Education Expert with 18 years of experience here at WSECU and Credit Union Development Educator since 2010. She speaks to members, schools and public groups about financial challenges, financial wellness and other money issues. Backed by a significant amount of industry experience, she is skilled at helping members work through difficult situations and avoid financial crisis. Karen was awarded a gubernatorial appointment to the Financial Education Public Private Partnership (FEPPP) and has served that board for over 13 years.

Karen’s passion for financial education and creating financial curriculum for young adults is inspiring. Combining fun and engagement with empowering information is a talent that she and her team bring to every workshop and event. You won’t want to miss an opportunity to experience that.

Anders Dowell, '23 is a versatile professional dedicated to bridging the gap between strategic leadership and practical execution. Drawing from an MBA in Leadership from the University of Washington Bothell and a BA in Geography and Geographic Information Systems (GIS) from Western Washington University, Anders excels in program management, data analysis, and customer service. His career highlights include orchestrating engaging experiences and driving innovative solutions in both academic and corporate environments.

Known for his resourcefulness and collaborative spirit, Anders brings a unique blend of analytical expertise and creative problem-solving to his work. His approach is shaped by a blend of analytical rigor and creative insight, reflecting his commitment to continuous improvement and making a positive difference in the world.

Beyond his professional achievements, Anders finds inspiration in biking, community and exploring creative pursuits, which enrich his perspective and fuel his drive to innovate.

Creators and Guests

Host

Anders Dowell

Anders Dowell is a versatile professional dedicated to bridging the gap between strategic leadership and practical execution. Drawing from an MBA in Leadership from the University of Washington Bothell and a BA in Geography and Geographic Information Systems (GIS) from Western Washington University, Anders excels in program management, data analysis, and customer service. His career highlights include orchestrating engaging experiences and driving innovative solutions in both academic and corporate environments. Known for his resourcefulness and collaborative spirit, Anders brings a unique blend of analytical expertise and creative problem-solving to his work. His approach is shaped by a blend of analytical rigor and creative insight, reflecting his commitment to continuous improvement and making a positive difference in the world. Beyond his professional achievements, Anders finds inspiration in biking, community and exploring creative pursuits, which enrich his perspective and fuel his drive to innovate.

Guest

Karen Zukaitis

Karen Zukaitis is a Financial Coach and Financial Education Expert with 18 years of experience here at WSECU and Credit Union Development Educator since 2010. She speaks to members, schools and public groups about financial challenges, financial wellness and other money issues. Backed by a significant amount of industry experience, she is skilled at helping members work through difficult situations and avoid financial crisis. Karen was awarded a gubernatorial appointment to the Financial Education Public Private Partnership (FEPPP) and has served that board for over 13 years. Karen’s passion for financial education and creating financial curriculum for young adults is inspiring. Combining fun and engagement with empowering information is a talent that she and her team bring to every workshop and event. You won’t want to miss an opportunity to experience that.

What is Career Conversations ?

Frank conversations to help you take control of your career.

Going beyond resumes, interviews, and cover letters, each conversation brings a unique perspective on relevant topics for you and your professional development.

Presented by Pepsi, Career Conversations is produced by the University of Washington Alumni Association.

Learn more: https://www.washington.edu/alumni/career-conversations/

Stressing about your finances certainly is a normal part of modern life. Student loans, credit card debt, mortgages, planning for a family, retirement.

It can feel overwhelming and insurmountable at times. How do you dig yourself out of a financial hole? How do you avoid ending up in that hole in the first place? It can all take a toll on you and your well-being.

This conversation will be chock full of tangible tips and strategies to help you take control of your finances and gain back your life. Bye bye financial stress. Hello financial freedom.

Welcome to Career Conversations Season Four, presented by Pepsi and produced by the University of Washington Alumni Association.

In each episode, we meet with experts for in-depth professional development conversations you won't find anywhere else.

My name is Anders and I'm your host for this episode. I'm a proud 2023 alum with an MBA in Leadership from UW Bothell, and a member of the University of Washington Alumni Association Gold Council.

I'm thrilled to introduce our guest for this conversation, Karen Zukaitis.

Karen is a financial coach and financial education expert with eighteen years of experience at Washington State Employees Credit Union, or WSECU for the locals.

She's been a credit union development educator since 2010.

She speaks to members, schools, and public groups about financial challenges, financial wellness, and other money issues.

Backed by a significant amount of industry experience, she is skilled at helping members work through difficult situations and avoid financial crises.

Karen, welcome. I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you today.

Me too, Anders. Me too. I'm really excited about being here today and be able to share some information. And my hope with this podcast is that people can take away at least one piece of knowledge to help them move forward in their financial life.

Love that. Love that.

So, yeah, we'll segue right in because we are here to discuss the relationship between financial literacy and budgeting as well as mental health.

So you have experience and are currently working as a financial coach at WSECU, and you're a credit union development educator as well.

So how did you get involved in that kind of work? And what drew you into financial education and helping people who are in difficult situations with their finances?

Well, I think it's been a life's journey for me.

In my household, we never talked about money or budgeting. I didn't learn it in school, so I basically had to learn it out in life, and I learned it the hard way.

Sometimes I do have to do things the hard way in order to learn stuff. So, when I started my first job, I got a credit card, and I charged that credit card to the max. And then when I want to buy something else, I go and put a little money down on it and go right back downstairs and charge it again. So I've just been living through my life and learning things the hard way.

I've gone through bankruptcies. I've had to short-sell a house. I've I've eaten malt-o-meal for three or four days. And, in my current position with the credit union, I work with my coworker who is was also a single mom at the time.

We were talking about finances and that kind of stuff, and she came up with a program on financial wellness. And, hey, let's start doing some workshops. Let's put some workshops together to talk to people about financial wellness. And I think one of the things that really hit home to me in the beginning was, at one point, my daughter was saying, you know, hey, mom.

I broke my toy. And I'm like, well, put it on your Christmas list. Maybe you'll get it. And she's like, well, why don't we just use your debit card?

It's like, okay. That's not a magic card. It doesn't work that way. So really trying to help people work through problems that I have gone through in the past, it just makes me feel good about being able to share what I have done.

That's awesome. I love that.

So you kinda touched on some of those, some of those earlier signs of, maybe financial mismanagement, earlier in your intro there. And I wanted to expand on that a little bit and ask you, like, what's your view on the notion that certain financial habits promoted by popular culture, like aggressive saving or investing, might actually lead to increased stress or dissatisfaction?

Well, my belief with pop culture is, it it doesn't incur reality.

It has driven people to do things that are detrimental to their mental health, trying to have, like, a crazy savings goal, and it doesn't take into consideration individuality. And it can set you up for failure.

Savings and investing are meant to happen over a lifetime.

It's kind of like dieting. You know? If I went on a five hundred calorie a day diet for a while. Starved myself to death, basically, because I wanted a quick fix, and it just didn't work out. Gained all the weight right back and some more.

So it's it's a long haul, and you have to take baby steps.

Literally, people will starve themselves to get a six month amount of savings.

And, anything that promotes aggressive, you know, aggressiveness outside the norm where you have to deprive other parts of your life, it's not healthy. It's not a healthy thing. It you can be in worse shape than when you started.

So the tried and true method is boring, is not sexy, but consistency is the key.

So creating balance in your life, I think, is really important.

Living debt free is a wonderful goal, but you don't have to live in a yurt to have that. So there is no shame in having a car payment or a house payment or a credit card payment, but, you know, just having consistency in your life.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

And I think, I think a lot of us moving into this new financial world post pandemic, and kind of post tech boom as we're talking more temporally, you know. Those payment plans, whether they're a lease or a mortgage or that kind of thing, those are already gaining popularity, and I think that we're only gonna see more of that.

You know, something that we see all the time now is you can go on to, you know, Big 5 or, you know, Target or whatever, and you can, you can pay for yourself over time.

How do you think programs and companies like Klarna and, you know, I'm struggling to think of another one, but these kind of pay-as-you-go short-term credit companies, how do you think using those services influences the people using them and and their financial mental well-being?

Well, I just feel when you have the the short term loans, how much are you paying in interest on that? And at the end of it, how much interest and how much are you paying? Say you go and you wanna buy a couch and you're gonna pay it over time. And, how much interest are you paying on that over a period of time?

Are you paying double for that couch? Are you paying triple for that couch? So, I mean, really paying attention because sometimes those interest rates can be twenty, twenty three, twenty five percent. I mean, it's a huge thing.

It's better to maybe think about, okay. I wanna purchase this. Instead of getting a short term loan for it, maybe I'll just start stashing a little bit of money away each month.

One thing I found about these pay-as-you-go kind of systems that you'll find -- you know, online, most, retailers have them now -- is the the ability to, you know, spread out your payment into four payments. And when I see that, all I see is the ability to separate these into, smaller payments, which psychologically are making me think that I'm spending less. And I think that that's, you know, it goes along with the interest. You know, it's just something that you have to pay attention to and, one of those skills that you have to build, as you're shopping online or in person.

I wanted to move on and ask you about social media's impact on, you know, financial health and well-being.

And specifically, how do social media and the culture of comparison contribute to financial stress and poor mental health? And are influencers making things worse?

Well, I believe lifestyle and financial goals are not one size fits all. When you go online, basically, probably one in seven online posts can be misleading.

You know, you need to do your own research. You need to, look into things on your own. And when it comes to influencers, you know, you have to be very mindful and pay attention. And watch out for tunnel vision thinkers. You know? The only way you can get rich is by doing it this way. It's all or nothing.

Also, getting into business with them. They might set say, you know, you get into business with me, start recruiting others, you can make more money. I think that's a big red flag to look at.

They they prey on your anxiety, and they promise overnight success. You know? It doesn't happen fast. It doesn't have to happen quickly.

And, you know, once you land on their page, an algorithm keeps sending you more marketing for what they have.

And, also, be aware of people who can predict the future. Hey. This is a stock you need to buy. This is what you need to buy right now. Or the YOLO mentality: you only live once, so why not jump in right now?

When it comes to looking at these influencers, you know, they need to be transparent.

When you are getting financial advice, like I said, it's not a one stop shop.

You need to be making decisions on your own. They should be giving you choices to look at. If somebody comes, if you go in and speak to somebody or you're looking at somebody and, like I said, they say "one stop shop." This is all you need to do. That's a red flag right there. They need to be talking about education, about your credit, you know, giving you options.

Again, just be informed and do your own research. I think it's very important that people really look into it and just not take that one piece of advice. And look for those red flags.

That's definitely something I found myself doing when I'm, you know, scrolling at the end of the day. And it's surprising how often I get caught by them too. You know, I think money is already the topic that everybody doesn't want nobody to talk about or however I just said that.

You know, it's a hot button issue.

So when I when I see it, I engage with it and I never really considered, like, what the audience is. It's so interesting too because, I mean, I probably saw one yesterday. I mean, I one hundred percent did. I get all of the job search ones and the the resumes and career coach stuff too.

And I was surprised because I I've never really thought about whether or not though I was the audience for for these people.

And I suppose that I probably am to a degree because the algorithm is feeding it to me. But I am now going to look at things a little differently now, when I'm scrolling later today, and I will probably not forget that. Now it's kind of like it's it's Pavlovian.

I'll have to think about it when I'm engaging with financial content now. Am I the audience for this?

And, you know, speaking of audiences: influencers, you know, have the ability to speak to massive audiences. And like you were saying a little earlier, it is the responsibility of the individual? Or the company? And ethics play into that. And cultural understanding and all sorts of things. You know, not everyone believes that the the path to success is the same for everyone. But I think it's very much the same for influencers.

And you see that because they're selling products. And the crazy thing is now you can just buy that lifestyle. You can book homes for ninety dollars an hour in LA or, you know, and get a whole wardrobe for eight hundred dollars a month, full designer wardrobe.

But in reality, these same influencers that might be trying to sell you a course or even just give you basic financial education might actually need some of it themselves.

No.

I was just looking at this. And a lot of marketing, when you're looking at, like, self care, and they might be trying to sell you self care stuff. And I believe that, you know, like, self care, treats the symptoms instead of addressing the issues. And it reached an all high all time high, during COVID. Lots of people were online. That's what they did. That's what they live for. I mean, Amazon made billions of dollars during that time.

So marketing can tell us, you know, if you use this product, it will help you feel better, look better, or be a better person.

There are a lot of products and courses and programs offering the gift of better health and less stress, but there's always a price attached.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's no free lunch.

There's no free lunch. Exactly.

Or, you know, marketing can also imply that you're not enough or you can't really love yourself unless you use this product?

Who doesn't like a massage or nails or a good cup of coffee? But, to put it bluntly, for the most part, the more you are paying for self care, the less likely it's gonna actually make you less stressed.

And then if it doesn't work, then you feel like a failure, you know, when you're looking at all this stuff. And I just believe that taking care of yourself, reaching out to people and having people to talk to, your friends, prioritizing quality time with your friends, and, focus on getting good sleep and exercise and taking some walks. We live in a beautiful, beautiful place. Get out and take some walks.

What are you passionate about? What can you do? I love combing the beach. Doesn't cost anything to go and get seashells.

Just taking care and tending to your basic needs is very important.

Yeah. It's definitely, something that I think about a lot.

You know, self care spending and that being, you know, a marketing ploy. And I'm, you know, I'm a victim of that myself and I still do quote unquote "self care spending."

But this is certainly a time when it's actually being kind of pushed to us. It's almost and the notion of doom spending because, you know, something terrible is gonna happen and thus we should spend all our money now. I don't think this is a good, you know, it's not a good model to to follow and that's the extreme model. But in terms of just simply self care spending, it does seem to just generally, you know, make people anxious and and stressed out and get caught up in in a cycle of comparing themselves to others. And it spirals very quickly.

Yes. Yes. It does. And like I said, and if it doesn't work, then you feel like a failure.

Why doesn't it work for me?

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's like, am I am I the audience for this?

{{??}} Also, am I the participant for this program kind of, you know, you have to, like you said, choose, the right tools and and, and perhaps financial products that actually work for you when you're getting down to it. There's, you know again, you said there is no one size fits all to these problems. It it it is dependent on your situation and your background and all sorts of of different demographic factors.

Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

So, yeah, kind of on that, what do you think about integrating financial education into mental health support services, and what do you think the outcomes we would see are? And maybe the outcomes what do you think the outcomes would be maybe based, you know, in, like, a, you know, a one year, a five year, ten year? What are we gonna see?

Well, I believe that the connection between mental health and financial crisis is cyclical.

Financial challenges can lead to significant stress, and this relationship can create a vicious cycle where financial stress can trigger mental health issues that can, you know, hinder financial, stability and decisions.

It can turn into anxiety and stress and worry and panic and insomnia, and then, you know, depression can set in. So I really believe that it can turn into a vicious cycle.

And, then even suicidal thoughts. My coworker and dear friend was coaching this family, and the the father was even considering using his insurance policy to help save his family.

In other words, you know, committing suicide. And it's just, it can get really get really bad. And then it can also, you know, can strain relationships.

You know, you can't afford to go out with your friends and do social activities, and it leads to isolation, which is not good. So, I just believe that improving financial well-being is critical for breaking this cycle of financial stress and poor mental health. I believe that talking to someone, speaking to someone that you trust, a trusted friend -- they don't have to have the answers. They don't have to tell you what to do.

But sometimes when you speak it out loud to another person, it loses its power over you. And, you know, seeking help, it's not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of strength when you're reaching out to somebody and creating a spending plan. And a spending plan is something that takes one, two, three, five years.

But once you start writing it down, putting it on paper, it kinda takes a little bit of anxiety out. Knowing what you have coming in, knowing what you have going out, and then starting to work on individual things.

It's baby steps. It takes time. It's not gonna be fast. And like I said before, it's not gonna be easy, and it's gonna be stressful at times. But don't get derailed by setbacks. You know, if you stray from your goal or something unexpected happens, don't beat yourself up.

That's a huge thing. Just get back on track as soon as possible and start working through things. So I just I've really believed that they do go together, and it does take time.

Everybody's different.

It could take a year. It could take five years. It it just if you start working on it, that will help with all of the the mental health part of your finances. Because, you know, having a budget or a spending plan or or budgeting or talking about it is probably eighty or, you know, ninety percent emotion and ten percent math.

Totally.

Yeah. I remember back in elementary school and they're teaching us how to write an essay.

And they have you do an outline for the essay. And I think I find myself reverting to that all the time. Doesn't matter whether it's a podcast episode like this, or it's a report, or whatever it is. I always have to start in that place because otherwise I can't get my ideas, thoughts, and needs organized correctly.

And I almost... I think I'm gonna go home today and probably write some of those down. Because you are right about writing those kinds of things. When you put it into, when you kind of manifest it physically, it feels, you know, that is a real step.

And it's a lot different than just telling people that you're gonna do something or telling yourself that you're just gonna do it, you know. At the end of the day, you need to do something, and it can't be in your head.

Yes, exactly.

Do you think, in this kind of same vein, do you think that some mental health issues, especially these financial ones, could be solved by providing a basic income? Or simply giving people money?

Well, it would be nice to be able to just throw more money at people.

But my belief in that is if they don't already have a financial spending plan in place, you know, basically, more money would be like... Oh, for example, I got a better job back when I was in my twenties. And I thought, oh, now I can go out and buy myself that pretty car because I have a little more money. So instead of paying off my credit cards and stuff, I went out and leased a really pretty red car. You know, because now I'm have more money. Well, then I ended up getting tickets, a lot of tickets for driving this red car. And then my insurance went up, and then I couldn't afford that. And so then I filed for bankruptcy. So I think it could just spiral out of effect, you know, and make you worse than when you started.

Having the basic income or the UBI, basically, is supposed to help take care of your basic needs. But if you don't have the financial education to back it up, I think it's it's just ... It could work against you, basically.

Totally. You know, throwing a lot of cash at something. You're not you're not gonna hit it with a lot of bills.

I like what you said there because there is that distinction as someone who believes that, you know, a basic income, could really benefit society generally.

There has to be that financial literacy component because it's clear at this point, that not everybody can be trusted to manage money. And that's okay.

And I think that's a huge piece of something like a basic income, or grants. Whether it's a consistent payment or just a one time kind of lump sum.

There definitely has to be that education component. And maybe it's not cash. Maybe we give everybody a hundred bucks in the S & P 500, when they're born or something. And that's kind of their their financial safety net or whatever, you know.

Yeah, I think I think that financial education is something that needs to be implemented probably just directly into mental health support service. Because I'm also seeing from therapists on reels and TikTok, you know, these videos are going viral of these therapists just saying, you know, saying to their patients, "Yeah, you actually might just like, you actually might just need more money."

Like, "That could really alleviate a lot of the stress that you're feeling right now." And I think that's so funny and validating. You know? It's a funny thing to say, and then it's also just validating because it does feel like that.

I think it's more like throwing a Band Aid on top of a sore. You know? You just throw a Band Aid on it, but you don't take care of it. You don't put the medicine in there. You know? It's just a Band Aid.

And it just I just don't believe it works.

So we've kind of delved into it a little bit on the mental health side, and kind of the philosophical side. But let's get a little practical.

What kind of tech can we be using?

You know, are there budgeting apps? Financial management apps? What what's out there for us? And what tools do you suggest as well?

Well, with technology today, it's really can help, you know, versus the olden days when you sit and you write your budget out on a on a ledger and you have to write everything out.

I believe when it comes to online, on your accounts, you can have account alerts set up on your accounts to where if you spend more than fifty bucks, you get an alert that's sent to you. Or, another thing is you can put a stop on your debit card to where if you don't have the funds in that account, your debit card's not gonna work. Because, you know, I know there's people that have gone out there, and if they keep using a debit card, most financial institutions will let things go through at but with a charge. Twenty five bucks.

You know? You go buy a five dollar coffee. Now it's a thirty dollar cup of coffee. So, you know, that might be something to look at.

Budget apps, there are a ton of them out there.

There's a lot of free apps out there. So when you're looking at it, you shouldn't have to pay for an app.

I talked to my coworkers about this, and, they said Goodbudget works really well. Monarch, Mint. There's free apps that you can utilize that are out on the market that you don't have to pay for. I mean, the old one, I don't know if you've heard about the envelope method.

You know? Some people, like to use that, and it works for them. You know? They take their paycheck.

They divide it into different envelopes. They have one for gas, one for food, one for, you know, whatever it is that they have in their life, and then you just use that. And if you run out of the food one, well, now you're going to your pantry, and you're gonna be trying to have to make something, you know, instead of just pulling something frozen out and popping it into the microwave.

That works for some some people. You know? What you want to look for is something that works for you to where you aren't struggling every month thinking, I gotta do this again, or I gotta work on this again. You need it to work for you, and everybody's different.

Like I said, for me, I do old school. I write it down. It hurts. I see it.

I know where I'm at, and it and it takes a little more time. But for me, it works. Envelope method might work for some other people, but if they're robbing for one envelope to pay for another one, that's not gonna work. It just has to be something that works for you and, is is easy for you in your life.

So that, I think, is, basically looking looking at and being honest with yourself.

You know? Do I go out and and spend? Do I go out and, you know, use my debit card? And like I said, taking and putting a stop on your debit card so that you're not charging more. So there there's a lot of stuff out there online to look in. Like I said, you shouldn't have to pay for it. It should be free.

I like the notification for different levels of spending.

And I'd imagine you can probably set it at whatever you want.

And not only is that a a good little financial tool, but it could also protect you from fraud, if you ever get a notification for a, you know, Maserati.

I still kinda use that that method.

I hit "submit pay" on my rent every month so that I can feel it leave my account. I don't want autopay.

I don't need to ... I don't need to not know. I need to know what's happening. And, some of my old roommates have thought I've been crazy for it, but there is nothing better than pressing "pay now," and paying that rent. And there's nothing worse.

So my uncle actually used the envelope method to pay off his house, and they did it extremely quick. Everything that I've heard about the envelope method has been, I mean, very good. It it does have that kind of antiquated vibe to it, which I think is why not everybody's on it. But that's the thing. There's different products for everybody, and there's different tools for everybody. And, you know, it's finding the right one that works for you. Yes.

You know, for me, personally, I think I'm gonna go to the apps this time, not the envelopes.

And I think my bank, you know, most banking apps seem to have features that at least do high-level budget tracking and and that kind of thing as well, which is great.

Yes.

Are there any other tools that you suggest? Anything that you like, companies that are ethically good that you like to support or anything?

Well, I just think, like I said, there are different apps out there. I haven't used them myself personally, but people I've talked to that have used them -- like, a good budget app -- they said that works really well for them.

One of my other coworkers likes Mint. It works well for her. There are apps out there that can help you reach your goals.

You know? So you can have a budgeting app. You can have a goal reaching app. You can have all this information there.

But sometimes, just having that cash in hand, it it hurts to hand over that twenty dollar bill to pay for something versus swiping that card. There's no emotional attachment to that. But using the cash, there is an emotional attachment to that. So, you know, just seeking out in the key, find find what works best for you. And you might have to try a couple different things before you find what works best for you. But, just keep looking because there's something out there that you will be able to utilize easy, and it'll help make your life a little easier.

Absolutely. Sounds sounds like there's a tool for you. It's out there, and it's probably, you know, a a Google search away or even just on on the App Store. So go out and and try different apps and, find the one that right works right for you.

So on that note, what's one actionable step that listeners could take today to improve both their financial as well as mental well-being?

Well, I think sitting down again, sitting down and writing it down, starting a spending plan. A spending plan is a living, breathing document. It changes with what happens in your life, what season of life you're in.

Write down everything you have coming in, everything you have going out. Maybe we have what we call a fritter finder.

Start writing down what you're spending your money on for a full week.

Write down that pack of gum, that cup of coffee, I mean, every single thing that you, spend your money on for a week, and then check it out and see, wow. Where is my money frittering away? Where is you know, what holes do I need to start plugging in?

Wants versus needs. That's part a big part of your budget. You know, sit down and write wants versus needs. When it comes to wants, you can't take away all the wants.

If you take away all the wants in your life, you're gonna be miserable and you're setting yourself up for failure. But what are some wants that are really important to you? And then all of your needs. And just taking control. Starting this process, I believe, you're taking control of your finances. You're starting somewhere. It's very basic just to get started that way.

Starting towards financial freedom. It just it gets you on the road to financial freedom is what what I believe when you when you do that. It takes away all the power that the mental health, the stress that you have when it comes to your finances and stuff. You're starting something.

You have a goal that you're going to reach towards. But like I said, it's a living, breathing document. If something happens, don't beat yourself up. Just get back on and start moving on again.

Yes.

You know, I think that's perfect.

Just starting and starting in the simplest way. Just write down what you got coming in, and if you if you don't have it broken down, what's going out?

It almost feels scary to do that in a way because it's almost like physically manifesting how much money you have and, you know, there's a lot of things that change and money is a very difficult thing. And I think that it causes a lot of problems and people don't like to talk about it. And so, yeah, literally just starting and writing that down. I mean, I wanna do that now. I haven't done that before, but I feel like I'm gonna I'm gonna go home and I'm just gonna get a super high level overview. Because the first time I went off the high dive, it was super scary and I was probably up there for twenty minutes. But once I jumped, I was like, this is awesome.

And I think that that is actually a really good kind of way to think about it. It's the high dive. It's ... you gotta take a leap of faith.

And in in this case, it's not even a bad leap of faith. It could be financial freedom. It could be that Xbox, the new Xbox or whatever. But yeah, just gotta take the step. Simply taking the step is huge.

Yep. It is. It is.

It is. And it will help alleviate stress. Believe me. It did for me.

Love it.

Are there any other, things you can think of off the top of your head that, you know, tackle both that financial and mental well-being component? You know, actionable steps? I'm trying to think of myself even.

I really believe in sitting down and talking to somebody, having that trusted person. I think people are more comfortable talking about sex or religion or anything than they are about talking about money. You know, they're ashamed. They're embarrassed. You know? I can't manage my money, so there's there's something wrong with me.

But having that conversation with a trusted friend or, like, if your friends invite you out to go eat, go to a birthday dinner and you can't afford it, instead of saying, oh, no. I can't go, you know, maybe talk to that person. If they're a true friend, they're gonna understand.

And, if you don't speak it out, it's gonna bring you into more isolation.

And, I believe being isolated is just it's not a good place to be, and it it's not healthy. You need to be able to to speak it, to get it out, to, just have that conversation.

It's very important.

So that that would be my takeaway when it comes to the first step. So, if you need to, go seek financial or go seek help. Lots of lots of employers have what they call an employee systems program where you can go and speak to a counselor for free for three different times and talk to them about you know, you can bring up your finances with them. You know? Speak to a financial adviser.

You can ... Most credit unions have financial advisers on on hand that you can sit down and talk to. Or like our credit union, we have financial coaches that can get you started, get you in the place where you can start thinking about what needs to move forward. But don't don't it's not, like I said, a one stop shop. Everybody's different. Everybody's, finances are different. You can't just sit down and have this one do one, two, three, four, five, six. You need to be able to work with with what you have, and the person that's helping you needs to be able to give you choices.

But you're making the final decision, and you're not alone. You're not alone in this. That's the big thing. You you definitely aren't alone.

Most people have been there.

It's that stigma of talking about money. It creates unknowingness and kind of makes people powerless in a way. And especially in this context because yeah, you can just sit down with one person and one person can make the difference that keeps the ball rolling. I work in the admissions office here at the UW, on campus, the Seattle campus. And when I give admissions presentations, I always end with if you have any questions, please reach out.

There's somebody that can help you even if you just want somebody to sit next to you while you fill out the application, somebody is here.

And I'd never really ... I like that you said that because that was on my mind and I hadn't really heard people say that before. But I think, yeah, everyone should just have a person that they can go to. A therapist. Boom. Boom. We figured it out. Everyone needs a therapist. Every company needs a therapist.

Somebody to talk to. Yeah.

Yeah. I used to dump on my mom all the time. I'd call her up when I had problems, and I'd just dump all over her. I'd hang up the phone. I'd be like, oh, I feel so much better.

Then my mom said later on in life, thanks for all those times you did that. She's yeah. She's sitting there thinking about it, but yeah.

Yeah. She's worried sick.

Oh, man.

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of career conversations, and I wanted to first thank Karen, for joining us today and sharing with us her knowledge and expertise.

Yeah. Karen, the floor is yours.

Well, thank you, Anders. I really appreciate the conversation that we had. I hope that some of the topics that we went over are gonna be able to help some people and just know that they're not alone.

And, there is help out there, and there is a place to get started. And I really appreciate doing this podcast. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Karen.

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