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Now, without further ado, let's get on with this podcast.
Some men compete at the highest level.
Some men design the tools others compete with.
Today's guest does both.
He stepped into the world of precision rifle competitions in
2015 and built himself into one of Canada's top PRS shooters.
He's represented Team Canada on the world stage and helped shape the
direction of the sport nationally.
At the same time, he serves as senior designer and team lead at
modular driven technology, sporting goods, leading the development of
chassis systems and accessories trusted by shooters around the world.
He founded the BC Precision Rifle League.
He directs matches.
He sits on the board of the Canadian Precision Rifle Association
and he helps select the very athletes he competes alongside.
Welcome to the Silver Corp podcast, Josh Boha.
Thank you for having me, Travis.
What an intro,
my guy.
It's crazy.
Yeah, it only took me five times to get through that one.
I don't know.
Worries.
It's so hard.
I don't think I have that many accomplishments, but I appreciate it, man.
Thank you.
Never have I ever, never have I ever knocked somebody's
rifle over onto the concrete.
Uh, to top it off, add a PRS match aside from your rifle.
Yes, that's a fair point.
It got fully dropped.
I forgot about that.
Oh, man.
You know, I is, if you want to challenge, shoot a PRS match and
bring your son with you mm-hmm.
And make sure that he's on your squad together and you're helping with all
of his dope and getting them on and makes sure they're sure things are good.
He put his rifle up right by yours.
I'm like, uh, don't put it there in the way.
It's, you're gonna knock his over and I grab it.
What do I do?
Completely my fault.
I knock over your rifle.
Well, to be fair, I, you know, I completely black this out from
my memory until right now, to be fair, the bipod just slipped.
I think is what happened.
I think my bipod was very loosely on my dovetail and it just went off
and then the whole gun was gone.
Yes.
Well, you know, fair, fair.
What I was impressed by was twofold.
Number one, your reaction to that.
Because like, I remember when I'm on, I was at the Justice
Institute range and I just got this brand new 50 millimeter lens.
Yeah.
It was a pro series, L series, whatever, cannon lens.
And one of my instructors brought the targets back and
hit the tripod and thing broke.
And it was split right at the, at the ring.
And he says, you know, there's a flash of I'm gonna kill you.
He says, but you quickly composed yourself.
Mm-hmm.
I never got a flash of I'm gonna kill you.
You're like, okay, well let's just put a couple rounds through this
thing and, um, see where it's at.
And you're like, yeah, shooting fine.
No harm, no foul.
We're good to go.
So I was impressed.
Twofold.
Number one.
Your reaction, the calm, under pressure, and number two,
the durability of your setup.
That, uh, someone can just dump the whole thing on the
concrete and you're like, yep.
Good to go.
Let's keep going.
That poor gun, that one, all of my poor competition rifles
get abused a little bit.
Right.
They all kind of get beat up.
They all kind of get banged up.
Like it's, this is why we check zeros.
Yes.
Partially because we don't trust the TSA and partially because you just have
to go and just verify your stuff's.
Good.
Right.
So you, you had an interesting background.
Mm-hmm.
You were, you were born over in South Africa.
I think we were talking earlier, had a little bit of a stint in England mm-hmm.
And then, uh, over to Canada.
Yep.
Tell me about that.
Yeah, I mean, uh, Mr. Worldwide over here a little bit.
I, uh, yeah, I was, uh, my dad is South African.
Um, he's from South Africa.
He lived there for 40 years and, uh, that's where I was born.
Me and my brother were born down in Port Elizabeth, which now has a new name
that I can't pronounce, unfortunately.
Fair enough.
But yeah, that's where I'm from, down near Cape Town, uh, on the Western Cape.
And, uh, grew up there for a little while and my parents, um, decided
it was time for a better life.
And then to kind of get out of the bit of a messy situation that was
going on in, in South Africa in the late nineties and early two thousands.
Yeah, we, uh, we moved to England where my mom's from and, uh, I grew up there
and um, actually last year when I was there for the world championships,
I went to the little tiny village.
I went to school and it was insane.
Cool.
Like I could walk, there was a cricket match going on.
I was walking in the summertime, end to end in the village.
The little pub people were out.
I was like, man, this is insane.
I haven't been here in 20 years.
That's so cool.
Um, but yeah, no, it was Did
anyone remember you?
Did you have anyone that you could
Well, actually, yeah.
So I stopped by the church at the very end of the village.
It's place is called Church Eaton.
It literally is so small.
It has a church, a pub.
And a post office and that's it.
There's no stores, there's nothing.
Yeah.
It's just a little tiny farm community in cricket.
Cricket, uh, pitch and that's it.
And uh, so I went into the church, I parked and I walked over and there
was these old ladies like running around and they're like, Hey, can
you help us, like lift something?
We need like a strong dude to come help us.
Like, oh yeah, no worries.
I like walk over.
And they're like,
that's how they suck you in.
Yeah, right.
And, uh, they're cleaning out the church and they're getting rid of all this
stuff, and they're just natting away.
And they're like, what are you doing here?
Like a, you sound like an American, and B, what are you doing here?
And I told them my story and it turns out they knew friends of ours.
And, um.
Uh, the g Grimshaw family we grew up with.
Yeah.
And they were like, holy crap.
Like, what are you doing here?
Like, this is amazing.
This is crazy.
I gotta talking to these old ladies.
And they were so sweet.
They kept giving me all these flyers and all these things and
I was like, this is awesome.
That's pretty cool.
I always like how they, you know, over in England they got such
a small little island, so many people, yet they still have wild
spaces and you can still get out.
And I like how they're, you know, even their, their
version of redneck hillbillies.
Yep.
They still got all the necessities basically in walking distance.
And some people, they got their favorite pub and they mm-hmm.
That's the pub they go to from
some, most people.
Right, right.
And now that's it.
Right.
From drinking age.
Mm-hmm.
Or maybe even before for the rest of their life.
And that's their social center and their church is right down the road.
Mm-hmm.
And they're, they've got, I, I think that's pretty, pretty
neat how that's all set up.
Yeah.
And so I kind of grew up in the West Midlands, which is sort Central England.
Okay.
Near Birmingham kind of area.
Okay.
Um, little south end place near Stafford.
And um, yeah, that was my, that was my childhood kind of growing
up in the, in the, in the wild a little bit, but it's still England.
Right.
So I had a pellet gun and I, I, uh, got into some trouble, you know,
hanging out the window, shooting pigeons and stuff like that.
Whoops.
But, well,
they're regulated over there, aren't they?
Pelicans?
Yeah.
Well, it's kind of like here, right?
Anything under 500 feet per second, they don't really care too much.
Right?
Mm. So we shot that in the backyard and things, but shooting and hunting
and archery, all of that stuff wasn't really a, it wasn't an option.
Right.
But,
and that's the other thing they got going, they have, uh, sound moderators
Right.
What we call suppressors or silencers they call moderators.
Yeah.
'cause it's got a better ring to it, I guess.
More palatable.
Right.
And they make it mandatory.
You gotta have this
exactly.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I mean, going from there, my dad, uh, he went on a fishing
trip to Vancouver Island in 2005.
Fell in
love,
fell in love.
Literally he got, he got here, he got to, uh, the punt ledge up in,
uh, like, um, up near Campbell River.
Yep.
Fell in love with the place.
And he was like, how are we moving?
Right.
How are we getting here?
Seriously.
Yep.
And that was, uh, about 18 years ago now.
And
how old were you when that move happened?
11. And I had never been here.
I had never Were
you excited or were you like, I don't want to go, all my friends are over here?
Well, I didn't want to go and I assumed that Canada was flat.
It had Eskimos and igloos and Huskies and that was all I got.
Well, basically does.
Right,
right.
Basically for anyone outside of Canada.
That's what Canada is,
man, we had no idea.
Dog sleds and,
yeah.
Yeah.
We landed on Canada Day 2006 is when we got here.
Cool.
Yep.
And how was that transition?
Um, I mean, it was great, right?
You know, we, we grew up in England, but coming here you've got freedom, right?
You can go and explore the woods, you can go dirt biking whenever you want.
You can go camping wherever you want.
Like, it was just, it was awesome, right?
Everything we'd wanted to do in England and everything we'd wanted to do
growing up, we kind of just got to do.
Right.
Yeah.
And my parents always said that like the best mix of South Africa and the
best mix of England is kind of bc
you got the wicked biodiversity, right?
We're like the serenity of the north here in British Columbia.
Right.
You know, people do like to complain about the lack of freedom and the, the rules
that are coming down and I, I get it.
Yeah.
You know, I understand it, but, you know, comparative to other places,
we still, there's still room for us to be able to do things and
100%.
It's, uh, an interesting one to navigate.
But yeah, it's, um, I think you made a good decision, a
wise choice coming over here.
Yeah.
I mean, I've traveled quite a bit since being here.
Yeah.
And every time I go somewhere, I'm like, oh man, it'd be really
cool to live somewhere else.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
But every time I go somewhere, there's always this long list of pros and cons.
Right.
And it's really hard to beat BC in my opinion.
I really, really, really like it here.
Where's the last few places you've traveled to?
Uh, a couple weeks ago I was down in Arizona.
Um, I mean, I've spent time recently in the uk, uh, been to Italy, France.
Um, I've been kind of all over the western US for a little bit.
Uh, matches have taken me around the world, so.
And that's all for matches?
Oh, yeah.
Most, well, mostly not all of 'em.
Wow.
So, okay.
So you came over here at 11.
Mm-hmm.
Then you finish off your schooling.
Yep.
And you've got, do you have a design background or is that something
you learned on the job as you, uh.
Right.
Yeah.
So my dad, even from when I was little, um, he kind of always steered
me towards an engineering degree.
He was kinda like, well, south Africans are either
dentists, doctors, or engineers.
Sure.
And I was like, okay, well I'm not really good at like medical
stuff, so that's, maybe that's how I look over at engineering.
And that was always kind of the, the, um, the path.
And he's sort of in a technical sales role.
So he kind of, he kind of structured my path a little bit there.
Okay.
And, um, yeah, I went through school, kind of did all the STEM
classes, did all the physics and science and math and all that stuff.
Not that I loved it, but it's what I did.
Sure.
And, um, yeah, I went through BCIT here in Burnaby.
Yeah.
I did, uh, mechanical engineering and.
In all honesty, I'm not a great student.
I am, uh, you
and me both.
I wish I could do a lot of this over right now and knowing
what I know now, do it again.
But, you know, as 18, 20-year-old, like, I mean, no one could tell you anything.
Right.
So
I hear you.
So did you get a, uh, engineers get that iron ring or something?
Do they or?
Yeah, they do.
And I don't have one.
No,
I am not a true engineer, Travis.
Oh, you never finish it?
No.
So I'm a, I'm a two year diplomat, uh, technologist technically.
Okay.
And, uh, what I like to say is Disney's got Imagine or Yeah,
they've got Imagineers and MDT, we've got Pretensioners and that.
That's me.
I've never heard that one before.
Pre pretend engineer
that, that would be me.
I'm a, yeah.
Two, two year diploma and everything else is just on the job.
I don't know.
I think a lot of people mistake education with intelligence and just
having the right accolades behind your name doesn't necessarily mean
you're the best person for the job.
And that's something that I've noticed at MDT is that they seem to go and
they attract a certain type of person.
Right.
And, and from an outsider looking in, it looks like they're willing to take
a risk on people who look like they'll be a good performer who will fit in
with the team Well, and there seems to be a very big team atmosphere,
right?
No.
Is that, is that in a, a Correct Outsider looking in opinion?
A hundred percent.
Yeah.
No, MDTI mean, it's so cliche, right?
I think every big business says this, but MET is legitimately
extremely people focused.
Mm-hmm.
Everybody says that.
I know.
But I think top down, like, you know, Martin, you know, our ownership Yeah.
You know, our, our management structure.
The actual people who run MDT and make the big decisions, MDT are
legitimately really good humans, and they're really people first, right?
And they wanna make sure like, yeah, okay, we're making awesome stuff.
We make legendary products that we talk about all these core values.
But like a really big part of hiring at MDT is, is this person gonna fit in?
Right?
Is this person actually part of the, like, will they fit into the company culture?
Are they gonna be good for the company and actually, you know,
push it further forward because they're interested, they're
excited, they're passionate, right?
Yes.
On paper, anyone can be, have an amazing resume.
Um, and, you know, that might get them really far in some careers.
Mm. But at MBT, it's like, no, we wanna make sure that the people we hire are
honest, solid, like good people mm-hmm.
Who are really excited about what they're doing because
they're doing something cool.
Right?
Like, it's a, it's a fun place to work.
Right.
And if you're kind of losing that, um, that perspective mm-hmm.
And you kind of lose that focus, then you know, you're just there as a job.
Right.
And it's like you're not gonna be doing your best.
At something, they're just like, ah, I'm just here for a nine to five.
Right.
I remember watching MDT in the very early days.
Mm-hmm.
I think it was, um, what was the name, rooster 33 or something.
Lasso Clemente had a, um, uh, a username called like Rooster 33.
Right, right.
Something like that on
Cgn.
Right.
On Canadian gun nuts and, and, uh, you know, talented machinist
and, uh, had this idea, he was trying all these different things.
Actually, he would bring parts and pieces by, in the rental house that I
had in South Surrey White Rock area.
Wow.
Which I was renting because it had a big, it had about a quarter acre there,
but had a big shop on it, and so I, I would do the park rising for him, and so
I watched as the very first iterations, and then when Martin got involved,
holy crow, things just skyrocketed.
Right.
Yeah.
He, he took a good idea and he brought with him his, his background
and his expertise and yeah.
So, um, and it's really interesting watching the progression and then you
guys moved into the States and then you're into a new, more and more states.
And I just got a text from Martin a, uh, a couple of days ago.
I was over in Tuco and, uh, it's got a little bit of a burn.
It's, uh
Right.
Kind of, uh, wearing off now, but, um, uh, there's an action
company you guys just purchased.
Yep.
Yeah.
Lone Peak Arms.
That's a, it's a big one.
We've been kind of quiet about for a little while, while now
we're not quiet about it anymore.
Mm-hmm.
So we're really, really excited about that, uh, coming online.
No kidding.
Yeah.
So, I mean, I, I get it from a Canadian perspective, having a, uh,
and making an action, making a firearm, something that's gonna be regulated.
Yeah.
It doesn't make a lot of sense for most Canadian businesses, but for
a company that's multinational and in the states, I totally get it.
Right.
I mean, the unregulated pieces as you're starting off, like the chassis and the
scope rails and the rings and all the other stuff, of which I have lots and, and
the bags, like you, you guys purchased a, um, a bag company and I mean, I love it.
That's my, my go-to hunting.
Super lightweight.
Uh right.
You got one of your little bags there.
Nice.
Yeah.
How's, how's that gonna change things now for, uh, for MDT?
Yeah, and so this is a conversation I've had quite a lot since the
news broke is like, this is, this is a big departure, right?
Like we've gone from being an AC or sorry, an accessories
aftermarket support company,
right.
To now we are a fire manufacturer.
Right.
That's, that's huge.
Right.
And we have, since I've worked at MDT.
The mandate has been, no, we are not producing firearms.
We're not producing guns.
We're, this is not what we're doing.
We are accessories.
And now we're saying, okay, we'll do both.
Mm.
And that's, uh, that's huge.
That's a massive step, but it really just leads to our growth plans.
Right.
MDT as you know, with Martin, he, like, he's, he doesn't sit still.
Right.
He's always doing something.
I, we've joked recently that, uh, we coined the moniker that
MDT is actually just Martin doing things, which is so true.
I love
it.
I gotta use that one.
He's always doing something right.
Sure.
And, and it's one of the things that makes him so great, I think, at what he does.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, yeah, this is now going to help us grow into different markets,
into different subsections and it'll help us achieve different things that
we've just never been able to do before.
And I think it's really exciting.
Um, and Loan Peak is an awesome company, right?
We've been working for them or with them for years, not four of them.
Um, uh, great guys, really good ownership.
They've got, again, owned by like really solid good dudes, right?
They're part of the community.
They're out at matches, they're supporting shooters.
You know, there's a fairly big team down there, right?
They've got a machine shop.
Um, it's, uh, it is a, a big step for us.
Well, that seems to be part of the whole MDT ethos as well.
Mm-hmm.
Is we don't just say we do.
Right.
We don't just, we put our money where our mouth is.
Right.
And a lot of your people, you're out there at the matches.
You're out there at all the matches, you're directing the matches.
Right.
Um, that's, that's interesting.
Like, that's a, you know, everyone says don't make your passion your job.
Right,
right,
right.
Um, but somehow it seems to be working over here,
you, you have to be so careful, right?
Mm-hmm.
And I talk to this, I talk about this with people in the industry quite a lot, right?
Because yeah, don't make your passion your job.
Don't make your hobby, your job unless you really are kind of crazy.
Um, sure.
In which case do it, but be careful, like where do those lines start and stop.
Right?
Right.
And you have to be so, like, personally.
For me, when I go home, I don't listen to anything.
PRSI don't look at anything.
PSI, like, I just completely dissociate, right?
My social media is just wall to wall guns, uh, but likers and like pistols
and something completely different, uh, trucks and just like outdoor stuff, right?
It's like I don't even want to think about PRS when I'm not actually at work and when
I'm in a match or something like that.
Right?
You have to be, you have to really draw that line and say, where is,
where does this start and stop, right?
Because if you don't, then your life becomes just your job.
Yeah, I
hear you.
And then that's hugely problematic.
Yeah.
I know what that's like.
Yeah.
When that's all you do, you, you're dreaming, you're sleep and you wake up,
you have ideas that you're dreaming about.
It's, yeah.
No, you need to have, you need to have those boundaries.
It's important.
Exactly.
Um, and that's a, a really good segue to something else, but I think
we're going to hold off on that one.
Okay.
Um.
Uh, but I do wanna talk about PRS.
Yeah.
So did you try any other sort of like IPSec or PPC or pistol shooting
com competitive stuff or, uh, um, uh, multi gun, or have, have you
tried any of these other sports?
I've done a little bit of, uh, like tactical pistol.
I've done a little bit of other type of shooting disciplines, but
what actually got me into this, believe it or not, was archery.
Okay.
Um, yeah, I started shooting, shooting archery, uh, years ago.
My dad and I took a course over here in, uh, Burnaby at a local, uh, bow shop.
And Is that
Bowman?
Yep.
Yeah.
Okay.
Boman Archery down in the basement there.
Yeah.
Um, we took a course down there with them years, probably, man, this
would've been 2012 or something.
2011 we took a course and, um.
We got hooked.
We loved it.
Yeah.
We thought it was awesome.
And he was so, I don't know where this came from.
He has like a DD, it was just like random hobbies all over the map.
Right.
So he went out and immediately bought the first compound he could
find and he got so super into it.
And then that kind of rest was history, right?
We went out and shot, uh, 3D competitions up here at Ridgedale and
we shot a couple different flatland, ones shot down in Twas a bunch, uh,
or sorry, down here in South Surrey.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, we, we got really into archery and then I went to go
work at a, at an outdoor store in Langley, uh, wholesale sports as the
archery, uh, like bow counter guy.
Okay.
And I ended up becoming competition to boman archery
actually at the end of the day.
Really?
But, um, yeah, I mean a lot of people would come and see me and need Bowry
strung or stuff rebuilt and I got really into it and like super tech nerd.
Right, right.
Like, I wanted to learn everything about the bow and how it worked and how to, you
know, rebuild these things from scratch.
And, um, yeah, archery is really what got got me into it.
And I was at the archery counter one day and at one point I was managing both
archery and the gun counter at wholesale.
And I had a guy come up to me, his name was Paul.
And he was like, Hey, I'm looking for prizes.
We're running this match out here in Chillowak.
Um, you guys be interested in donating some stuff.
I'm like, oh yeah, let me talk to Richard.
We'll figure it out.
We'll see what we can do.
And um, and then he was like, well, do you wanna come and shoot it?
I was like, wow.
I've got like a 2 0 4 Ruger like ING gun.
Like what am I gonna do with that?
He's like, oh, just show up.
Right.
You'll be fun.
Don't worry about it.
Just bring a partner and you guys will figure it out.
And that's exactly what happened actually, is I, um, had no
idea what the heck I was doing.
I was a left-handed shooter, shooting a blind magazine, 2 0 4 Ruger with four
rounds with a fixed 10 power on it.
And my buddy, uh, Mike, you probably met him.
Big Sasquatch looking guy.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh, he and I went out and he shot his venerable old 2, 2 3.
And we had literally no idea what we were doing.
And how'd you do?
Terrible.
Yeah.
Uh, but the rest was history.
I mean, I fell in love with it.
I was like, I can't keep doing this crap.
So what is it that made you fall in love with it?
The competitive aspect and hitting stuff at distance?
Mm.
I was like.
I don't know how I did this bad.
Well, I did know how I did this bad.
The gun was, the gun was not set up for this.
Sure.
And I had no idea what I was doing.
And then I was like, okay, well people are obviously hitting
stuff consistently at 600 meters.
Hmm.
How do I do that?
Right.
What do I need to do to do that?
And I think this is a really interesting point at the very beginning of
a lot of people's like precision rifle journey is they try it.
They don't understand it.
And then for some people it's like, well, I have to understand it.
I have to figure this out.
And others are just like, I don't really care.
I'm gonna go back to shooting trash for 20 yards.
Right.
I hear you.
And it's, it's a really interesting, like divergence with people where some people
are like, I have to figure this out.
Right.
And then they just chase it like it's a rabbit hole and others
are just like, I do not care.
I just, whatever.
Who cares?
Yeah.
You know, I remember shooting the, uh, British Columbia Sniper match and I
was, I think in my early twenties and
Right.
I got my first 3 0 8.
It was, I got it from a gun show in Cam Loops.
Yeah.
And it was an old, I think it was a P 17 action and it didn't go bang.
Right.
But it had a great big clunky home homebrew stalk that looked like the
person maybe had tried to ize it.
'cause it had JV weld and, and it had a big thick aftermarket barrel on him.
Like, oh, that barrels, I have no idea who made the thing, but if I can get this
thing shooting then, then we'll be okay.
So I went out to, uh, the reins, but Headspace the whole thing up.
'cause it wasn't Headspace straight.
Right.
Fix, fix it up till it, it would go shooting a few days before the match
went up to the ranges and mission there to try and get it all cited in with, um,
Weaver rings and bass and then Bushnell, uh, Bushnell banner, I think it was.
Uh, but it had male dots on, on this thing and so that was cool.
Yep.
It really, that was, that was gonna make or break it for me.
And this guy, ed Big comes over and he's like, Trav just,
I know Ed.
Yeah.
Yep.
Um, use, uh, I got this accuracy International, you should
just use it for the match.
I'm like, ed, like if I've never dropped a gun before, but if I put a scratch in this
thing, there's no way I could afford it.
This gun cost me a hundred dollars.
I gotta go and bang.
Yep.
I'm gonna use my gun.
Thanks very much.
I appreciate the offer.
He is like, Hey, whatever offer's on the table.
Right?
Yeah.
And I thought, okay, well I was really kind of him, right?
Yeah.
And then went in and shot the match and.
The same sort of thing from everybody else.
I mean, it was very different and I actually did well,
I did well on that match.
That's awesome.
Which was, which was surprising, right.
Um, I think it was second place out of civilian shooters and Wow.
Yeah.
It wasn't too bad, um, for just getting the thing going.
And I found a couple things.
Number one, the, the mindset, the, the mental, you know what, I forget it.
I can do this right.
And, and just keep plugging in.
That, that data, uh, helped me a lot because I could see other people who
were, they had good rigs in their well accomplished in their practice, but
you could see them beating themselves up at every shot that they missed.
And I'm like, I'm, I, I had, what do they call that, sports
Illustrated complex like, um.
Or sorry, the Sports Illustrated curse.
Oh, it's like you're on the cover of Sports Illustrated.
Right.
That's a curse.
You're gonna do poorly.
Well, of course you are.
I mean, if you're on the cover, you're at the pinnacle.
There's only one place for you to go is down.
Right.
I was at the dead bottom.
Right, right.
I'd never competed before, like the pressure just wasn't there.
Right.
Yep.
I had this, it never was looking at my gut and laughing.
Right.
And all of a sudden that was a huge helpful thing.
The other thing I noticed was the type of per competitor that they had there.
Mm-hmm.
Here use my kit.
Oh, you don't need this here.
Uh, you, you should try holding a little bit this on, on this moving target.
I'm like, we're competitors.
But yeah.
This is very different from let's say an IP SIC match or Yeah.
Where it's one by people knowing the rule book and people zipper up.
Like I found it very welcoming.
Yeah.
And, and of course now PRS is out there and it's the same type of
person they're doing these matches.
Yep.
Very welcoming and ego.
I like, I, I don't know.
I'm, I'm sure people come in with ego, but by and large I see it left at the door
typically.
Yeah.
I mean, uh, we were just shooting down two weekends ago in Arizona and one of the,
the team MDT shooters I was shooting with, his name is Patty Youngs Awesome dude.
Yeah.
Um, we were out having dinner one night and he's just like, he said
something that really stuck with me.
He was like, all problems, eventually have a way of working themselves out.
Mm.
And we were talking about something completely different,
but it's so true, right?
It's, and yes, problematic people in this community kind of just
work themselves out, right?
People who get caught cheating.
People who are just terrible to be around people who, um, yeah.
Have just a big ego and like, you don't want to hang out with them, right?
Mm-hmm.
I think when you're at the pinnacle and you're, you know, squad one
at the finale and you're trying to win the whole thing, yeah.
You've gotta have an ego.
You have to be there with the confidence that you're trying to win.
Yeah.
But the other 99.9% of us, it's a fun time, right?
It's gotta be a hobby.
It has to be a good time and yeah, it's, it's a really weird individual sport.
That is community based.
Yeah.
And you know, that's, that's a good way of putting it too.
Yeah.
Because gun owners are individuals at heart.
Right.
And it, there are social aspects.
Like if you're a shotgun gunner, that's a pretty social sport, right?
Yep.
Go shoot sporting clays and everyone's yapping in between.
And like precision rifle shooting, um, what you get in your bubble.
Yeah.
Right.
Had Charles cock talking about that.
Right, right.
Like you are in your own little world and you're zoning everything else out.
And it's probably at the far extreme of the individual side.
Right.
But for some reason there's a, um, uh, there's an openness to the people
that are in there, which is what Yeah.
Draws me back for the few matches that I've ever done.
Yeah, no, it's, it's a really weird little niche community, right?
Mm. And everybody in it has a very similar mindset.
Like I think Gunner in general have a si mostly similar mindset, but like
PRS it draws a very specific individual who's like a weird gear math nerd.
Yeah.
But also just kinda wants to hang out with their buddies in
the woods and is definitely like a little bit autistic for sure.
Right.
Totally.
Just a touch of theism.
Yeah.
You gotta have a touch of it, right?
I mean, we're all just kind of weird, but like we enjoy hanging out
with each other and I think that's what keeps drawing everyone back.
Right?
Because I was talking to, to Chad Heckler down in Texas as well,
who, I mean, Chad is an extremely accomplished shooter, right?
Mm. He was won the, uh, ag Cup.
He is the World Champion 3 0 8 shooter right now.
Like amazing dude.
And he was like, we just keep doing the same thing every time.
He's like, we go to these matches.
We fly there, we all hang out On Friday, we kind of talk a little bit.
We shoot two days, we're upset at ourselves and we leave.
And then we just do it again.
Yeah.
But there's something nice to the regularity of all of that, right?
Sure.
Yeah, but like, we keep, I mean, it's kind of insanity, right?
We keep expecting different results or we keep training for something
a little bit different or trying something a little bit different.
Like it's definitely, uh, it, it attracts a funny, a funny group of
people, but definitely a good group.
I hear you.
Yeah.
So how much of preparation for this is mental for you and how
much is actual going out there and putting round sound range?
Almost all of it's mental now.
Yeah,
yeah.
So, so little of it, in my opinion now is actually the, the reloading,
the practice, the, um, training.
It's, I'm at that like 10,000 hour mark, right?
Like, I've done this so many times that most of it I'm not
even thinking about, right?
Mm-hmm.
And I remember early days and he's been a, he's been a guest.
Your podcast where Ryan, Stacy told me Oh
yeah.
Like the whole subconscious thought, right?
Mm-hmm.
And Keith and Linder talk about this, and, you know, there's a
lot of really good, uh, examples of, of just like subconscious.
Constant repetition.
Right.
And I didn't really get it at the time, and I was like, okay.
Yeah, no, I kind of understand Nick.
Now I'm at that point where I'm just like, I seriously could not tell
you what I'm doing with my hands.
Like I, they're just doing something.
Yeah.
I think, uh, you know, talk with Ryan about that.
The, the way that he said it that really made it sink into
me was like, you drove here.
Right?
Right.
Oh, yeah.
Like when you first started driving, you're thinking about everything.
You're thinking about the pressure of the brake, your hands on the
wheel, and what the person on the left and the right's doing.
Like, did you think about all of that stuff as you drove in?
No.
Because you're doing it subconsciously.
You've done it enough that all of that subconscious and now your
mind can be on different things.
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Got it.
That makes sense.
Yeah.
I know, um, on the Modern Day Sniper podcast a couple years ago, they had
a really good, uh, walkthrough of things where they said, you've got, uh.
Conscious incompetency.
Right.
Which is like you don't know what's going on and you don't know why.
Yes.
Right.
That's where you start and it's like, okay, I'm gonna try and figure this out.
Right?
Yeah.
Then you've got this conscious competency where it's like, okay,
I'm really thinking about it now.
I've kind of got it right now.
I'm like, okay, this is starting to piece together, but I still don't really
fully understand why I'm doing this.
Yeah.
And then you kind of switch into your subconscious, right?
Mm-hmm.
So like once you've built that up, when you're not having to think about it, but
then you go to subconscious incompetency and say, okay, well I'm not thinking
about it, but I'm still doing it wrong.
For some reason to switch back.
Right?
And you kinda get in that weird, weird middle ground and eventually,
once you get so good at doing something, it becomes second nature.
Then you've got that subconscious competency, and that's really the pinnacle
of what we're all trying to achieve.
Sure.
With basically all of it, right?
Sure.
Until you get to wind reading and then that messes you up.
Tell me about it.
Yeah.
Wind.
I don't know if I'm ever gonna be a, a master wind reader at any.
Like sometimes I look and I read it and I get it right.
Other times I look and I think I'm bang on and it's so off.
Yeah.
Wind is the great equalizer and I think it always will be.
Right.
Yeah.
I will say the biggest thing for reading wind is just watch a ton
of other people shooting the wind.
Hopeful if you have that luxury
Exactly.
On the match of watching the other people like, alright,
this is where're gonna hold.
Well that, or just like I've, I've taken so many new shooters out into,
you know, areas that I know really well.
I know what the wind's gonna be doing there.
I know I've seen the wind currents enough and you just watch them
put millions of rounds down range.
Just like, okay, cool.
Now I can kind of see what to look for.
Right.
But that's a little, uh, little tidbit right there.
If you ever get the chance to just go watch a bunch of people shoot
rounds, down range, go do that.
So barriers to entry, people are gonna look at this and say, holy crow.
Yep.
Look at how much gear.
Yeah.
Look at how expensive this is.
Right.
And to that, I would say yes, it's expensive.
Yeah.
But it doesn't have to be, you don't have to start there.
I mean, with those PRS 22 matches.
Yeah.
You go with, uh, a TKA 22, a lot of different aftermarket accessories.
I think MBT makes some stuff.
Yep.
Um, and um, you can find something that's inexpensive and you can
start building up more and more if you wanna rebar the thing.
I mean, Ryan, I, BI over there.
Right?
Yeah.
Um.
And you can do it little by little, but I think the other big
barrier to entry would be fear.
Yeah.
Right.
People come in and they, they don't wanna look stupid.
Right.
They don't know what to expect.
They don't, why am I gonna put myself in this?
I'm gonna quote air quotes competition.
And when I say competition, like yeah, it's a competition
and people take it seriously.
But in the same breath, there's people that go out there and they've got
all the gear, and they got all this stuff, and they consistently rank
in the middle to low area because they just out there having fun.
Right.
They just wanna
hang out with their buddies.
Right.
They just wanna hang out with their buddies.
Right.
And it, it's, it's not competitive in that way.
And even the top competitors like yourself and like Ryan, like others
out there, they're like, oh, you should, you wanna try my gun?
Or Here here's a wind reading or Right.
Have you tried this?
Um, but from the training side mm-hmm.
For somebody who wants to feel comfortable.
What options does somebody have?
Great segue, Travis.
I'm happy you brought that up.
Yeah, and so in all honesty, I started the B-C-P-R-L in 2018 and uh, that
was born out of me shooting matches and traveling to shoot matches.
And I was like, well, why aren't we doing this in bc? I bet you we could
do this in BC and it's grown, right?
And it's been amazing.
It's been such a fun journey.
And it was literally like.
Can I do this?
Hmm.
Why is no one else doing this?
And at the time, that's when the BCRA was kind of dying with sniper matches.
Right?
Right.
Like things were really starting to fall off and there was just really nothing
in bc. So I was like, okay, well I don't wanna shoot F class, I don't wanna
go shoot, you know, tr type rifles.
I was like, well, I gotta do something, right?
So the BC PL has been a really cool, um, launching pad for so many different
things we've just wanted to try, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's been super fun and it's, I mean, obviously as part of MBT
I've been lucky to be able to have the, the backing there and the, the
allowance to just go grow the sport.
But I routinely get the question, well, who's like, can someone teach me?
Can someone help me?
Right.
Can someone, how do I get started?
Right?
That is the number one question I, I get and I'm like, well, you can watch this
video or you can listen to this podcast, or you can go to the range, right?
And, um, and that's a constant question we get and I, I have to keep telling people.
Why don't you come out to a match, right?
Mm-hmm.
I'll give you, we have a loaner rifle, come out and try it.
And then, you know, like you said, a lot of people are fearful.
Sure.
A lot of people get in their heads and they're like, oh, well, is there like
a qualifier, like the case qualifier, do I have to do something like that?
Right.
And we have nothing.
Right.
It's just like you can literally just show up with whatever
you have and come shoot it.
Just be safe.
Right.
That's
don't point to the people.
Make yourself disa point in a good direction off trigger until
we wanted to go bang and Exactly.
Let's have fun.
Yeah, exactly right.
And that's why I tell people, but they're like, oh, well, but
like, what are we shooting off of?
Like what?
Like what's the time limit?
Like, right.
Mm-hmm.
And so that's why I started North Star Precision Training.
Yes.
That's, uh, that's why I gave it a go.
Yeah.
And this is something I literally started in the airport while
I was slang down to Dallas.
Um, and it's been something that's been on my heart for a little while.
It's something I know I've, I've wanted to do.
Um, and I kind of have been just doing this for a couple years.
I've been taking a bunch of new shooters out.
I. Have been meeting them where they are.
Mm. And that's, that's really what I wanna emphasize with North Star, is that I don't
really care what your skill level is.
Right.
If you're a brand new shooter who just went and bought an RPR and a,
you know, a vortex venom, and you just want to go out and shoot it.
Mm. Okay, cool man.
Let's, let's figure that out.
Right?
Yeah.
If you're a mid-pack shooter who comes out every weekend and you know,
is having fun with your buddies, be like, okay, well I can crack the
top 10, I can crack the top five.
Cool.
Let's figure that out.
Right?
Yeah.
And, and I bet you, you can, right?
Yeah.
It, it won't take you as much as you think it'll take you.
Um, and that's, that's why I started North Star.
So it's something that's, uh, it's fresh right now.
Um, it's just on its infancy.
I haven't done a whole lot with it just yet, but I, I, I've got
some ambition for it to grow.
Um, okay.
I'm treating it as if, basically I'm a personal trainer, right?
You are gonna, the gym, you've got goals, you know what you want to do.
How do I get there?
You hire someone like me, right?
So I'm coming out, I'm meeting you with where you are.
If you don't understand your kestrel, let's just go through your Kestrel, right?
If you don't know what dope is, let's just go have a coffee and
let's go to talk about these things.
Mm.
But if you wanna go to the range, okay, cool.
We'll go to the range.
We'll figure this out.
We can run paper drills at 50 or a hundred yards.
Rim fire, Centerfi.
Uh, if you want to do a whole afternoon course and you want to go up and we're
gonna go shoot steel in mountains.
Cool.
Okay, let's go do that.
If you wanna focus on wind reading, what do you want to learn?
Let's focus on that.
Very cool.
And then let's build a training platform and a training plan
on how we're gonna make you.
Sustain that, so it's not something you'll forget.
So you're thinking more one-on-one or small groups sort of thing?
Yeah, I'm, I'm kind of focusing on the one-on-one right now.
So most of the stuff I've been doing has been mostly one-on-one.
And then like little groups.
Um, when you get too many people, I mean, as you will know, too many people
versus one instructor, it becomes a lot.
And then you can't spread your, your efforts as evenly.
Right.
That's it.
So,
but it comes cost prohibitive as well for an individual.
Like if you have to rent a range or if you're going out into the
mountains, you might be burning your shooting spot too, all of a
sudden by taking people out and, uh.
Yeah,
so that, so that I'm already, I, it's already burned.
It's gone.
I mean, I've got a couple different, and I mean in all honesty, like we don't have
a good long range range here in bc, right?
There's nothing, there is no, we don't have a k and m, we don't have
a gravestone, we don't have a cameo.
We don't have these premier shooting events where we go, oh, cool, we
got steel out to 1200 yards, right?
Mm-hmm.
We have to go to Crown Land, we have to go to somewhere where it's public, right?
Mm-hmm.
So unfortunately, yes, this is going to burn.
Shooting spots.
Yeah, it's gonna happen.
They're kind of already burned, right?
Most of these spots that are, are secretive and they were really cool.
They're gone,
and you can see 'em when they start getting burned because all
the garbage starts showing up.
Yep.
But we also do have access to a couple different private venues, so actually
where we run a bunch of matches.
There are some ranges and there are some private land, right?
Hmm.
So, um, we've got an amazing training venue, um, that I do wanna
talk to you about later as well.
Uh, up in merit where we run our ProSeries match, we've got 20 stages
set up there, or 18 stages set up there pretty much year round.
We've got steel up on the hills, um, and we can do a full day or multi-day
course up there if we want to.
And I've got other instructors, other pro series, uh, shooters that
can come out and help with that.
So that's kind of what I'm building to
How cool would that be?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that's takes the pressure off.
It's, uh, so there there'd be training, learning, but this
is just like a learner's match,
right?
Yeah, exactly.
So we could do anything from like a PR one, like, this is
how you shoot a thousand yards.
Mm.
All the way up to, hey, this is exactly how we would shoot this stage.
And walk you through stage planning, right?
Walk you through from, Hey, I'm showing up with my bio notice.
What am I doing to, how to actually execute the stage and get a good score.
What do you find the, uh, what do you find the biggest thing for most new
shooters is that can help like, say.
Get them from not consistently hitting their target to, to hitting their target.
Um, it's hard to isolate exactly one thing 'cause everyone kind of does
something slightly different wrong.
Right.
Um, I will say one of the biggest mistakes that a lot of new shooters, there's two
really big mistakes that new shooters don't do, and they don't even think
about doing it until they're there.
Mm.
One is they don't watch any rounds go down range, right?
Mm. They don't have any glass, they don't have bins, they don't have a spotter.
And so they're just kind of wandering around behind the line,
like getting their stuff together.
And then when it's their time to shoot, they're like, okay,
where's the target again?
What am I looking at?
Kind of thing.
Right.
And they haven't seen a single round miss or hit.
Right.
So they don't know what the wind's doing.
They don't know what the vegetation looks like.
They don't know.
Mm-hmm.
You know, they haven't observed any of that.
So that's a really big, um, I actually had this conversation
with a new shooter yesterday.
Okay.
And she was like, okay, well what do I need to do?
Like what, what gear do I need in order to immediately kind of advance?
And I was like, you need some buys in a tripod.
Right, right.
Like, let's get you going with that just so you can see
what's happening down range.
And then the other really big thing that a lot of new shooters do.
And I'm gonna say you shooters, but this is just all shooters and myself
included, is accepting crappy positions.
So when you're in the prone, that's not really a big problem.
As long as you're behind your gun, it's kind of fine.
Sure.
But when you put your bag down and you get into your kneeling
or standing or some kind of weird position, you put your gun on it.
Don't accept a bad position.
Don't have a bad MPA.
Right.
And that, I think, is one of the biggest culprits because when
people do not see where they hit, they do not see where they missed.
And when you say, Hey, what's your correction gonna be?
They have literally no idea.
That's a really good point.
Yep.
How do you deal with the pressure of a match?
Yeah.
Everyone's a little bit different on that one.
Yeah.
But I want to know how you do it.
Um.
You said it earlier, like, I'm, I'm kind of a cool cucumber.
I've got, uh, I've got a calm head, so that definitely helps me a lot.
I don't necessarily get nervous often.
One of the things I used to really struggle with was first
round or first stage jitters.
And I would come off the stage and every now and then happens still.
I come off the stage and I'm just shaking.
Right.
I'm just freaking out.
And so I trained that out.
I, uh, every time I went to the range, every time I pulled
out my rifle, I didn't zero it.
I didn't, uh, unless it was, you know, not zeroed.
Yeah.
Um, I would run a mock stage and I would put myself on time and I would
just start running through stages.
Right.
Interesting.
And that's actually something I had to train out, but, um, pressure's always
gonna be there and it only ramps up.
Right.
You know, I've shot three World Cups now and I'm about to shoot
my fourth this year, and I plan to shoot a fifth the year after.
Um, it only ramps up when you, when you compete at a high level.
Right.
Totally.
It only gets worse and you, you don't necessarily train
for that until you're in it.
Do you hunt?
Yeah.
Not as much as I would like to.
I used to more, I'm, I'm honestly quite a bad hunter.
Fair enough.
I mean, hey, you and me both.
Right?
And sometimes, sometimes I get lucky.
I just like being outside.
Right.
Um, the, um, and a lot of people talk about buck fever, right?
And that's kinda like first, first stage jitters sort of thing.
It's like, oh, been working all this time.
There's absolutely nothing big lull and something's coming up.
Um, I've never done one, but I think there's what PRS
Hunter matches too, aren't,
yeah.
Well, okay.
So right now we have NRL Hunter.
NRL Hunter.
Okay.
Yep.
Um, and that is honestly the most fun match to shoot.
If you're ever gonna shoot one match, go and shoot an NRL hunter match
that, or go shoot like an old school field style, like sniper team match.
Okay.
So talk me through this.
What does it look like?
So, PRS is, it's becoming more and more like the Ipsy or the US PRA or
like these sort of like regimented type shooting disciplines, right?
Where every, you know, everyone goes to see the stage ahead of time.
You've got a minute 45, you've gotta shoot 12 shots, you gotta
move, move, move, run, run, run.
Right.
NRL Hunter's kind of the exact opposite vibe.
Okay.
And it, it's so much more fun.
So your gun has to be a hunting weight, so like 16 pounds or, and
under, or 12 pounds and under.
Sure.
Which is still heavy for a hunting rifle.
I know.
Sure
is.
Yeah.
Um, you have to shoot basically a six five creed more or above.
Okay.
They've got power factor limits and stuff like that.
Um, you can run a really hot 25 Cree to make it work, but there's,
there's recoil you have to absorb.
Um, and everything's completely blind.
Mm.
And so that's what I think is the really cool aspect of it.
It's the great equalizer.
So you start down the hill somewhere, you're just standing
there hanging out with your buddies.
Everyone's just kind of chilling air pro out.
And you got a little placard sitting there on a fence post and
says, oh, there's two coyotes.
You have to shoot them in two positions left to right.
And you're like, okay, cool.
And that's all you get.
And they maybe have a picture of the coyote.
Okay.
And, uh, and then you, the ro comes down and sees you and
says, okay, hey, you guys ready?
And you either shoot by yourself in four minutes.
Or as a team in two, or sorry, six minutes.
Okay.
Um, and I would a absolutely, if you have a buddy that you're good friends with
and will remain good friends with after a terrible performance go, shoot's a team.
Um, it's
helpful.
Is it?
It's helpful, but it's so much fun just yelling at each other,
just nattering back and forth.
And, um, and anyway, so you've got four or six minutes, depending on
if you're single or, or as a team.
And you run up the hill and you're panting and you're breathing hard and you show up
there and there's a little bit of tape and there's a little bit of tape over here.
And then there's some flags on the ground telling you where to look.
Okay.
And so you have to find the targets and you gotta arrange 'em, and you gotta
engage 'em in four minutes, which doesn't sound like it's a hard thing to do.
Well, finding targets can be difficult.
Exactly.
Finding targets is usually the hardest part for people.
Yeah.
And I have shot hunter stages where I've literally never fired around.
Really?
And it's brutal.
And it kills your confidence.
And the worst part actually is we were in California years ago.
I found the targets with like a minute and a half to go.
I went prone, couldn't see 'em.
I was like, okay, what am I doing now?
And so I got back up and I couldn't find him again.
I'm like, what is going on?
Yeah.
And it was so, so frustrating.
But NRL Hunter is so different and it's such a departure from everything else
that kind of currently exists right now.
And it trains the, like, in my opinion, the sort of pure like
marksmanship skills, right?
Mm-hmm.
Can I go into an unknown situation?
Can I find my target?
Mm-hmm.
Can I ethically identify my target?
Right?
Can I, uh, decide which words landmark?
Can I range it well?
Can I make sure it's actually the right range?
Is it skyline?
Right?
There's all these different things.
And then the easy part really, really is the shooting part, right?
Once you can see it and you know it Exactly.
And the distance and.
Are.
Um, so if you're doing it with a team, your buddy can
spot for you and talk you in.
Yeah, so I shoot a lot with, um, with Ryan McClain.
He shows up with a bunch of our videos and stuff like that.
So he and I shot his teams quite a lot last year and we were
pretty successful actually.
And, um, so what.
The roles are is he'll be the first shooter, I'll be the spotter.
Okay.
I'm, I've got younger eyes and I'm better at, at finding targets and
he's technically a better shooter than I am, so he'll get down.
Technically,
technically I'll say, I will say tech technically, like his fundamentals
are probably stronger than mine.
And I think he's a better trigger puller than I am.
And I'm, you know, I will own that.
Yep, fair enough.
And, um, and so he'll set up and he'll be trying to build this weird position,
deploy the triple pull, deploy the tripod, all the, you know, goofiness, right?
Yeah.
And I'm sitting there looking around and when I find something, I'll, you know,
point it out to him and I'll call it out and he'll get on his scope and look at it.
I'll get on his bio and look at it.
And, uh, we work back and forth and Ros have told us that we are the most
talkative team and we're just constantly talking to each other, just yapping about
something or another, talking to the ros, talking to each other, just yapping.
And, uh, and so the idea is that, okay, within two, three minutes, you
know, first shooters set up, they've got their rounds down range, impact,
impact, you get more points for a first round impact and less rounds for, or
less points for a second round impact.
So encouraging, you know, the ethical shot kind of thing.
Sure.
And then you switch.
And um, typically the ideal workflow is two minutes.
Find your targets, two minutes, first shooter, two minutes, second shooter.
Gotcha.
Usually it's three ish minutes.
Find your targets and get set up.
One minute
Uhhuh first shooter, and then, and then just drag race for the last guy.
Yes.
So what about like, so SIGs got those?
Yep.
Uh, laser range finders that can talk to the scope.
That probably wouldn't be allowed and something like this, would it?
No, it's allowed.
Okay.
Yep, it's allowed.
It's just you're not necessarily saving a lot of time.
Okay.
Um.
And I mean, those scopes are a little heavy as well, so
making weight with it mm-hmm.
Gets you, gets a little tricky.
And the same thing with like a weapons mounted laser range finder.
You could put that on your scope, but then you're adding like a pound to your gun.
Right?
Right.
So you gotta be, you gotta be pretty careful with, with
weight limits and things.
Okay.
So the way we always run is just, um, I would have the laser range
finding bin noses and he just had RO NLP just for like finding targets.
Mm.
Um, and yeah, I would range 'em all and we, if you're gonna shoot
as a team, you basically have to run the exact same bullet, right.
Exact same bullet, same speeds.
Makes
sense.
You have to have the same dope.
'cause if one guy's running a 300 Norma and the other guy's running a six five
creed, you're gonna be in trouble.
Right.
So, um, you gotta have really close ballistics, but, um, yeah, I mean
it's a super fun environment and as hunters, it actually brings a lot of
people out there and it's, you know, you see guys show up at their 30
odd six or their two 70 or seven mil REM mags and just come try a match.
Right?
Mm.
And it's just so much fun to see those guys.
Because they just wanna learn.
Right?
That's, and they want to try shooting their hunting gear, right.
And just find weaknesses in hunting gear.
And it's so much fun.
I like that.
And like you're saying, like being able to spot these things
is gonna be a huge part of it.
So that's a, that's a bit of an equalizer too for the people who
come out with all the flash kit,
right?
Well, may maybe the other team that doesn't have the flash
kit can, can spot 'em quicker.
Well, that's the thing, right?
Is it's not really a gear race, it's just how good are you at doing these things?
Mm.
Right.
And it's more like efficiencies with gear than it is the fanciest caliber or
the longest barrel or whatever, right?
Sure.
It's a, it is such a different departure.
And they're usually in like, beautiful places, right?
Like actual, like hunting locations.
That's cool.
Yeah.
That is cool.
Uh, I think you, there's one that's held up in Squamish or Pemberton, is it?
Uh, no.
We used to run some matches up in Pemberton.
Pem.
Okay.
Um, but yeah, the closest NRL Hunter match.
Well, from, from here we had one in Cranbrook, actually.
Oh, okay.
And it was amazing.
That was,
wasn't it, like at some resort?
Pretty much, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
There's a, there's a father and son duo, uh, Tyler and Chase.
And Chase is actually on our pro team now.
Mm.
Uh, the sun and they, they own a ranch out there, a guest ranch.
It's, it's one of Canada's, if not Canada's number one dude ranch.
Like, it's, it's phenomenal.
It is one of the coolest places.
Um, and they're not running a match this year, unfortunately.
But, uh, there are some matches down in Washington state as well.
Washington, Oregon, Idaho.
Um, and they're, I, if you have the chance, I would highly,
highly, highly recommend doing it.
Okay.
Well, you guys are killing it on the social media front too.
Thank you.
I, I think that's, uh, the content that you're putting out.
It reminds me of a, uh, guy I went to school with and, uh,
wrote a book called Sociable and.
Got the thing published and he's, I remember back in the day, and he's,
when real estate agents were driving around and filling themselves in the
car, it was the drive and talk thing.
And
yep,
he's doing this and he's giving away all this great advice.
And I'm like, what are you doing?
Like people aren't gonna pay you.
They're not gonna come and see you if you're giving this all away.
It's like, nah, Trav, you've got it backwards.
They're gonna come to you because you're the expert, right?
You have all the information.
And I see that with MDT.
The amount of information, the amount of quality content that you guys keep
putting out is, uh, it's impressive.
And Ryan's in a lot of that too.
Yeah.
I mean he's, uh, well, two things.
So.
One of the very first departures for MDT was, I remember being in a meeting
forever ago now, but Martin said, we're not in the business of educating people.
Hmm.
Which I understood what he said at the time, and I was like, yeah,
no, that kind of makes sense.
Like, we're not, right.
We're an accessories, we're an aftermarket company.
Right.
Social media was, was part of our advertising, but it wasn't
our business at that point.
Right.
And then there was a fairly big switch where we said, actually no.
Like if we're gonna do this, we're gonna do it the legendary way, right?
Mm-hmm.
We're gonna make the best content we can and advertise,
but also teach people, right?
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, so Ryan's a huge part of this.
You know, he came on as like a testing manager, project manager
kind of guy, and now he's, who knows what the heck Ryan does anymore.
He's a special project kind of guy, right?
Just off doing marketing stuff and, um, excellent.
Yeah.
And we've, we've have some just awesome opportunities to go and film
amazing stuff all over the place and just, um, get to explore, right?
I mean, that's one of the really cool things with MDT is the
sky's kind of the limit, right?
It's like, can we do this?
I don't know.
We're gonna figure it out.
I get people contacting me, showing me an MDT video on the lake.
Do you know where this is Trav?
Do you know where this place is?
I'm like, I wanna shoot here.
I'm like, yeah, I've got a pretty strong idea.
Know where it is, but why don't you ask them?
Right?
It's,
yeah,
I, I bet you there's people who go there, like, you watch these
guys who can just look at the, the fescue, they look at the Oh yeah.
The, the fo in the, they're able to pinpoint where you're on the map.
Basically.
There's people who watch your video specifically to try and find
where you guys are shooting at.
Yep.
Yeah.
And that's, so one of the things, like we have a, you know, there's a couple
Crown L spots we use, and there's not honestly that much to shoot around here.
So it's like, okay, it is what it is.
But we've started renting ranges, right?
Or like.
Going to a match and then staying there a couple extra days and just hanging out
on the property doing a bunch of videos.
Right.
So that's why you'll see like, there'll be a string of videos from, like
recently we've done, uh, war Rifles down at the Geisey range in Pennsylvania.
Tons of videos just came outta there because it's like, okay, last fall
we were down there for like a week.
Right.
Cool.
Um, they've been at another venue, uh, not too long ago.
So there's gonna be a whole string of videos from like one venue here
pretty for the, you know, for the next little foreseeable future.
Right.
And it's cool as well, we get the pro team involved, right?
We get these shooters come in from all over the place.
They get to be part of the videos.
Like, it's, it's awesome how much we spend on media now.
And I think we've got something like five full-time video
guys in house or something.
Like, it's just crazy.
I think it's important, you know, I remember when I, this used to be the
office where everyone worked out of and then ended up, uh, a friend of mine,
he owns the Range Langley, and he's like, Travis, I've been watching this
guy called Gary Vaynerchuk and he says, everyone's gotta be a media company.
I'm like, who the hell is this Gary Vaynerchuk guy?
Right?
And I get in, I look at him, I'm like, I don't know if I like
this guy swearing all the time.
Watch a couple more clips.
I'm like, ah, he makes a point and watch a few more.
I'm like, okay.
I get where he is coming from and then it's like, okay, let's do it.
So I went, got a new office, turned this whole thing into our production
studio for podcasts and everything else.
Just jumped headfirst into the waters.
And I think, um, I think I talked about this with Martin when he
was on too, but I, I remember, uh, Magpole back in the day.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
And they were one of the first companies that started putting out professional
properly film training videos.
And even then, like trying to market gun stuff and gun accessories was tough
because magazines wouldn't do allow it.
Social media where it was wouldn't allow it.
However, education's different and they're not saying buyer stuff,
right.
They, they're saying, here's how you can shoot faster and shoot more accurately,
and they just so happen to be running.
All, all of their own stuff.
Right?
Right.
And people will equate that with, well, geez, if I have that, I can do this.
And I thought that was just a brilliant way to market.
Yeah.
I'd, same with Glock.
When Glock came out trying to get people to understand this new
Tupperware handgun, the plastic.
Fantastic.
Right,
right.
What'd they do?
I mean, there were pennies to make.
I mean, they're dirt cheap to make those guns.
But the massive marketing campaign to educate people as to why
they're good and they, they make quality stuff same as you guys.
Right.
I see that as a, uh, uh, the smartest way for a company to
really propel itself forward.
Give away all the secrets be of absolute value to the people have be, what is it?
Legend?
Yeah.
What is that?
You guys have your internal thing.
That's the thing.
Mark.
I think Martin's actually, I think he trademarked the word of like, legend.
Yeah.
He loves doing stuff like that.
He actually tried to trademark for tension year for me, and I
was like, oh man, we got close
pretension here.
Yeah.
You know, I got a buddy who went and trademarked, uh, Microsoft.
'cause he is like, I'm, I'm gonna go And, uh,
oh, he
okay.
Yeah, because I, I guess, yeah.
Uh, he's like, I'm gonna start my own microbrewery and S-A-U-F-T
South is uh, like beverage or something in German or Austria and
Sure.
And so I'm gonna have a microbrewery.
He didn't do as well as that Mike Rowe kid did.
He got the lawyers on him, and Microsoft's like, no, no, no.
We're in the beer industry.
We made this cozy for a beer thing once it went back and forth.
But, uh, uh, but that's, you know, a DHD and entrepreneurism
and all the rest, right?
Yeah.
Uh, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
But I mean, that kind of like you, you touched on there like legend, right?
It's like, if we're gonna do it, we're just gonna do it the best
possible way we can do it, right?
And that was one of the coolest things with the media.
And like, and you know, you go to matches, you go to events,
you go to trade shows, right?
And people are like, I love the guy, the videos you guys are doing.
It's like, yeah, like it's paying off, right?
Like there's, it took a while for us to get there.
And I mean, you know this, right?
Like creating podcasts and creating content, right?
Like, you gotta start small or you gotta start somewhere, right?
And some of our early videos are rough.
It's like, what are you doing?
Well, there's, what is that other, uh, expression done is better than perfect,
right?
And it's, that's that balance because you want to have the
most perfect thing out there.
But maybe just say, this is iteration one and we get it out and we go and
this is the most best thing we're doing at this time with our resources
and our knowledge and experience.
Right.
Uh, that's, how's AI gonna change the game here?
Well, so actually it's funny you mention that, 'cause now we have
a, you can look at this on YouTube.
We have a Spanish.
And a French YouTube channel.
Ooh.
Which is hilarious because it's just this exact same video.
It's the exact same people, but AI has taken their voices and just
made it French or made it Spanish.
Oh, that's
awesome.
So we have Mexican, and we have Lan.
Lan.
Yep.
And it's super funny to watch them because it's like you're speaking, it sounds
like you, but you're speaking Spanish.
Are they doing well?
Are they hitting?
Yeah, it's actually really good.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the, I think the Spanish channel's actually doing better than
the, than the French channel, but yeah.
Okay.
I mean, it's, it's reaching new audiences, right?
And it's, it's engaging new, uh, new, um, audiences we, we
might not have had before, right.
Or they wouldn't have stumbled upon it.
But what AI will do to the content, who knows?
Who knows?
I mean, I know we've, I think we did a one video of like AI
versus orchestral kind of thing.
Right?
Okay.
You know, there's, there's all these kind of things, right?
What
one.
I believe it was the Kestrel.
I actually don't think I watched the video.
Okay,
okay.
But I think it was the Kestrel, but I think it showed that the
AI was actually kind of close.
Right?
Yeah.
And I mean, we had like a, a AI chat bot on the website for a little while,
and we had this whole push for like, um, using AI for like reloading until we were
like, oh no, this is actually dangerous.
Hold on, don't do this.
Like, a lot of the charge rates were pretty high.
We're like, oh, okay, hold on.
Let's maybe like, let's back this one off.
I, I think AI could be pretty useful for people emailing in
and saying, I've got this rifle.
Yeah.
What, what do you have for that?
And it can, and as long as you're upfront, right?
Yeah.
You're not like trying to say that this is you.
Right?
Right.
This is your own person on board.
But, um, I know some companies that do that.
It never seems to go well.
It'll be like that, uh, that AI research I was telling you about earlier.
Yeah.
Right.
About Jim Shockey.
It's,
it's like, oh, scratch that.
That's right.
Right in the middle of the podcast, like, ai, how could you lie to me?
You're so convincing.
You said it so, so, like, you were so confident when you said it,
and I asked you 10 different ways.
Yeah.
And you kept coming back and doubling down.
I mean, that's the thing, right?
Like we, we use ai, um, on the design side and more of like, you know,
process and report writing mm-hmm.
And stuff like that, right?
But I, we went through this whole thing a little while ago and someone said that
you have to treat it like it's a grad student or a co-op or something, right?
Mm-hmm.
It.
It knows enough to be dangerous, but you have to tell it everything in almost
extreme detail to get what you want.
You do and you have to have really harsh guardrails, and then you have to check
back because it'll push those guardrails.
Right.
It'll push the boundaries on it.
Yeah.
We're just not there, right?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I think AI's really cool, and I think that it's going to,
to revolutionize a lot of stuff.
I think we're trying to put AI in too many things right now, like a smartphone with
ai and cameras with ai and scopes with ai.
It's like, okay, cool.
I guess, but like, do we need that?
Like, is that actually making your life better?
Yeah.
What about suppressors?
Is that something you guys have thought about?
Um, yes, it's absolutely something we've thought about.
Hmm.
Um, it definitely is a rabbit hole.
We've kind of gone down and a couple different avenues over the years.
Being a Canadian company definitely makes that harder, right?
I mean, there's the IP transfer back and forth.
Mm-hmm.
Um, IAR restricted stuff.
Um, and then, you know, until Idaho Falls, we didn't have any, uh, US manufacturing.
So now that we have us manufacturing, it's a bit of a different story.
But I was actually walking around shot show this year with Martin.
We ran into each other in the basement.
We were both kind of on our own little walks, and he said, since January 1st,
and at the time, this was like January 21st in the US there was something like
160 new suppressor companies registered.
Crazy,
crazy.
And it's because of, you know, the, the laws with the at TF have changed.
Tax stamps have changed.
Right.
Lead times have changed.
And it's like
still of the tax stamp, just there's no money behind it that
Exactly.
And it's like a four day turnaround kind of thing.
Okay.
Everybody and their dog is making a suppressor.
Yeah, I could see that.
You know, there's a company, one of Europe's largest companies reached
out to me a while back and said, you know, we've worked with other people in
different countries and we've provided them information as to how they moved
from a restrictive standpoint to a, uh, permissive standpoint where they allow it.
Sometimes it's a wording, sometimes it's stats and blah, blah, blah.
Do you wanna help us?
Do you wanna work with this?
I'm like, shit.
I mean, it's not like I don't have enough things on my plate.
Right.
Let's go.
But, um, yeah, let's do it.
So, um, they're providing information and we're, I'm playing with AI
as the best strategies forward.
'cause it's a political route, which I don't have a ton of experience with, but,
right.
Uh, we'll see, we'll, we'll push those things in Canada because
realistically it doesn't make sense in Canada for their, their current laws.
And a lot of other countries have figured that out, and the
states are figuring that out and.
We will see what happens.
But I, that's gonna be a long play down the road, if anything
ever does come from that one.
That's awesome though.
I mean, like, good on you for fighting the good fight.
I mean, I really don't think there is enough people, like, I think a
lot of Canadians complain and moan and, and, you know, go on and say,
oh, like you said earlier, right?
Like, oh, the laws are getting so much worse and this, and that and that,
but no one's doing anything about it.
Right.
The, the, the amount of people doing something about what they're
upset about is a tiny drop in the bucket as compared to people who
are actually just complaining.
Yeah, I agree.
And, you know, everyone's waiting for somebody else to do it.
Yeah.
And they'll say, oh, we got your back, we're right behind you.
And then things go sideways and you look behind you and
there's, there's nobody there.
Yeah.
You're all in your own.
Yeah.
But I, I think of, uh, like Daniel Bofski, he's an individual from Ontario.
He's an accountant by trades, so, Hmm.
Analytical and meticulous, and you can just kind of picture
the, uh, the type of person.
Yeah.
But, uh, that was with, um, requirement for an individual to belong to a
gun club or arrange in order to, to get an authorization to transport or
get the restricted license renewed.
And, uh, we worked with him.
He became a Silver Court Club member.
Of course, we did that specifically to fight the, that policy, which was
being treated by law, like it was a law.
And we were, we've been very successful with that in changing that.
But he single-handedly went up against the, uh, the chief
firearms officer went to court and pushed the whole thing through.
And at some point he's kind of shy, but at some point I'd like to get him on the
podcast to talk about that, because the power of one person to be able to affect
change, what he did is he won in court.
Wow.
The justice or judge said, look at Chief Firearms Officer, you guys have
to issue them, their authorization to transport and their new license.
You can't make a requirement of belonging Gun club arrange.
And they said, okay, no problem.
So he leaves and he says, okay, so where's my, where's my license?
He says, oh, you just gimme a range membership or club
membership and I'll issue it.
He said, but the judge said, right.
So that force him to have to go back into court, and he lost on appeal.
Oh.
But the byproduct of that was they didn't want it appealed further and the province
changed how they handled that whole thing.
One person.
Right.
And that has a, an effect across the other provinces, same thing of, um,
like in Nova Scotia, they started enacting some very restrictive laws.
And New Brunswick is like, oh yeah, we're gonna do the same thing.
Because, because they do it.
And I, I honestly do believe that some of the eastern provinces
are used as a testing ground for, uh, unfavorable policy.
Hmm.
Like if we look at this, I'm gonna go air brokes and the
buyback, where do they start This?
Right.
Um, there's eastern provinces, are he heavily subsidized?
And anyways, um, so it can go two ways.
You can have people go and push something,
right.
Which maybe it's got best intentions, maybe it doesn't, I don't know.
I'm looking at it probably from, from a, uh, a bias perspective, right?
Right.
And, um, I, and then other provinces just start picking it up and
doing the exact same thing and they claim, what do they call it?
Normative process.
Mm. And um, mind you, when they tried putting restrictions on a club over
in New Brunswick, the club fought, the CFO said, but Nova Scotia does it.
And they're like, is that the only thing you're basing it on
Right
out?
Right.
Well, I think you touched on something super important there, right?
Is the power of one.
Mm-hmm.
And just one person deciding, Hey, I'm just gonna do this thing, or I'm
gonna fight this thing, or I'm gonna.
Whatever it is.
Right.
I think that is so critically important.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think a lot of people don't understand like how important
they could actually be or how change making they could be.
Right.
And I had this, when I started the B-C-P-R-L, I was like, why
isn't anyone else doing this?
So I just started doing it.
Right.
And I think if more people just kind of did that, it would be a different place.
Right.
This would be a different country.
This would be a different world.
It would be.
And I, I'm gonna will, I'm willing to bet that when you started B-C-P-R-L Yeah.
It probably seemed like a daunting task.
Yeah.
But if you look back on it right now, you're like, yeah, I could
recreate that in a heartbeat.
Yeah.
I wish I'd done a bunch of stuff differently.
Right.
Totally
right.
Yeah.
But it's like it, I was just some guy, right?
Yeah.
It was 20, what was it, 2018?
I would've been like 23 years old, right?
Mm-hmm.
I would've been just like, okay, cool.
Like, you know, no one's telling me no.
I haven't got permission from anyone, I'm just gonna go do this.
Right?
Like, what's the worst that could happen?
And I mean, I think that's maybe a mindset thing, right?
I don't think anyone's, not everybody's built that way, but there's a ton
of people that I think are, and just aren't utilizing that, right?
I think a lot of people are afraid.
Sure.
And I think a lot of people just like, it's, it's hard to do
something you've never done before.
You don't want to go in there and fail.
Oh, but look at all these things I gotta lose.
What if they raid my house?
'cause I'm pushing in the wrong way, or I piss the wrong person
off, or whatever it might be.
And what I, I try really hard with this podcast to explain to people and
help 'em realize the level of personal agency that each and every person has.
Sure.
And now with ai, holy Crow, set up an AI project folder, input whatever
laws, whatever things you want.
I want to talk to my mp.
I want to talk to my MLA.
Right, right.
And here's what I want to achieve.
I want you to look at it as if you are defense counsel,
as if you're crown counsel.
Right?
As if you're a master negotiator.
As if you're a civil servant.
Like what, what's, what are their concerns gonna be?
Right?
And then you can start drafting something and, and you can tweak
it and look and send it off.
You get something back, plug it back into ai, okay, where's my exposure?
What are they really trying to say here?
Right?
And it's one way to help keep the hot headedness out and keep
things organized and in direction.
So I, I think if people are listening to this and they're like, man, I really
want to stir up my own precision rifle league in my state or in my province.
Yeah.
That's personally what I would do.
'cause then it's all easy, it's organized, right?
You have a process to go forward with, or if you want to affect change for
laws or, or whatever it might be,
right?
Or, I mean like, I think another important thing there as well is like,
there's a lot of resources, right?
You know, I think in 20 12, 20 15, like when a lot of Precision Rifle was like,
I'm just taking it back to Precision Rifle for what I know, but when that
was all really new, like there wasn't a lot of people to talk to, right?
There wasn't lot of people to ask questions to.
And so when I started, I just called the guys who were running the Alberta
matches, and I was like, what do I do?
Right?
Awesome.
How do I do this?
What, how do I get started?
I didn't know them, right?
I just got, you know, a friend of a friend kind of thing.
But now, like, I mean, there's videos on this, right?
There are, there's so much resources and there's so much.
Um, you know, if you want to run a precision rifle mat, if
you wanna run a league, right?
There are so many people that are willing to help you.
But yeah, if you want to affect change, if you wanna go to
government, you know sure, absolutely.
AI is a great tool and also you can just reach out to people.
Right.
I like that.
I like that one a lot because a lot of people miss, like the fastest shortcut
to doing what you want to do is reach out to people who've already done it.
Right.
Look for mentors who are better at it than you.
Right.
And you're gonna be able to shortcut your, your way through it.
I remember when I was in grade 11 and we had to do a book report
on Shoeless job by WP Kinsella,
okay.
Of which Field of Dreams was based off of
Gotcha.
And a typical style.
I did nothing until the very last minute and then I'm like, wait a
minute, this guy's a local author.
Maybe I can track him down.
He's out in hope and so I look it up.
No.
Now he's moved down to South Surrey and I was able to sleuth him down
to South Surrey White Rock area.
Call him up.
He's got a voice recording.
Oh, I'm, I'm out in wherever he was, Florida or Hawaii and Sure.
Somewhere, 'cause like he ended up getting him on the beach and uh,
and he left his forwarding number.
That was my whole book report done right there.
I got an A on it and it took me like the night before.
And how did I do it?
Because I just called the author up and
I bet you you had the best report too.
Like your teacher was probably like blown away.
Oh yeah.
He is using all these baseball metaphors.
You like try to fly one over a left field, RE you know, because he like, he
just loved this book and he loved it.
I'm like, look at, you can call him yourself.
Here's his phone number.
Right.
That's
awesome.
And, uh, and in fact, uh, it was his girlfriend who picked
up, it wasn't his wife and her.
All, all these different things.
He, it, the bio in the back is outdated or wrong and
Wow.
But, um, calling somebody else up, who actually knows.
Yeah.
Well it's, you know, it's, you know, it, it's the experience built
on the shoulders of giants, right?
Mm-hmm.
Or, you know, leveraging those who have gone before you, right?
And there this is, I think this is just a metaphor for life, right?
Mm-hmm.
There's so much to be gained by just shutting up listening and every now
and then, ask a question, right?
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I, I think that part of why I've become successful is
because of exactly this, right?
Like, yes, I've been lucky in a lot of aspects and I've had a lot of, um,
times where I've just kind of been in the right place at the right time.
But knowing when to just listen to someone who's gone there and they're
giving you free advice is invaluable.
Isn't it funny?
The harder you work, the luckier you get?
Yeah.
I mean, absolutely.
There's a, there is definitely something to that.
I'm not sure I really believe in luck, but I do believe in being able
to capitalize on opportunities and being able to recognize 'em when you
see them and create them for yourself by how you comport yourself by the
circles that you want to run in.
And you talk about shoulders of giants.
There's something interesting that I found about MDT that I don't think it's
talked about very much, but I notice it.
There seems to be a faith-based culture Yeah.
Behind the company.
It's not in your face, but I, I pick it up in interactions and I
pick it up in, in different ways.
Yeah.
Tell me about this.
Yeah.
It's not, I mean, it's not something we're shy about.
Sure.
And, but you're
not pumping it down people's throats.
No, exactly.
I mean, you know, every, every year we send out Christmas cards
and we put scripture in there.
Mm-hmm.
You know, we, we make posts and we put scripture in there.
Yeah.
Um, and it's, uh, it's something we're proud of and it's definitely something
that's part of the organization.
Um, and it's not everybody, right?
I mean, everybody has their own backgrounds and everybody has their own,
um, you know, walks of life and, and it's not a prerequisite for working there
at by any means, I'll tell you that.
Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, I, I think that's, I'm gonna go and be
a little bit biased here right now, but I think that that's part of
what makes MDT kind of incredible
mm-hmm.
Is the characters and the, the faith that a lot of us share.
Um, and a lot of us, um, practice is what part of what makes
MDTs management and MDTs people really just solidly good humans.
Right.
Um, and I'm not saying that you have to be a Christian to
be just a solidly good human.
I'm just saying that I think that that's a really important aspect
of why we are where we are is.
Living out some of those values and living well, all of those values
and, and making sure that, you know, when we are doing something, we're
doing it for the right reasons.
You know, we're not just out here to make money.
I mean, obviously that's part of it, but sure.
We wanna build the best product.
Why do we wanna build the best product?
Well, to help people shoot better or to help 'em train better or
to help them achieve their job.
Right.
I mean, you know, there's, there's so many aspects to what we do and,
um, yeah, I mean, faith, faith is absolutely a, a, a big part of
why MDTI think is so successful.
I, I, from an outsider perspective, I'd say I'd, I'd agree with that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, everyone talks about how diversity is our strength.
Right.
I haven't seen that.
I haven't seen a football team get together and say,
everyone do your own thing.
Right.
This is all gonna work out.
We're gonna be stronger.
'cause you're all doing something else.
Yeah.
If people are singing from the same song sheet, if they
have a shared understanding.
Right.
And faith can provide, you know, there's lots of faith out there and.
Most of them will come right back to the same core values.
Right.
And, and being able to operate from a shared understanding is, I think
a, uh, a position of strength.
How, um.
W was faith a big part of your life prior to MDT?
Yeah, so I mean, I, um, I grew up in a Christian household.
My mom was, was very, uh, Christian and, uh, that definitely had
some impacts of us growing up.
You know, we couldn't play Pokemon, we couldn't watch a
bunch of scary movies around, uh, Halloween time and stuff like that.
But
did Pokemon anti-Christian?
I didn't know.
I guess, I don't know.
Yeah, fair enough.
I mean, she has to try to ban little plastic toy guns for me
and took on how worked out Yes.
Completely backfired.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, so yeah, no, I, I grew up in a, in a, in a Christian household, but the
one thing I really respect about my mom and the way she brought us up is
exactly the same thing that you just said, where it was never forced on us.
It was never something that was like, okay, this is the way it's
gonna be and there's no other choice.
Right?
Mm. Um, and my dad, you know, he's a believer, but he's not
very, I wouldn't say he's like, he doesn't actively go to church every
weekend and, and all that stuff.
Mm. Um, but it was one of those things that, you know, we were encouraged to
have a relationship with the Lord, right.
And to have, and to be open with our faith, but it was never,
it was never forced on us.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
And it was never, and that, and.
I think as a, a modern Christian, that's very important, right?
I think that the dogmatic, like, you have to do this, you have to do this,
this is, you know, if you don't do this, you're sinning kind of thing.
I think that's a really, um, negative light on a lot of faith, right?
Mm-hmm.
And the, the religions that get really beat down a lot are usually those
ones that are extremely dogmatic Sure.
And extremely conservative.
Right.
Um, so yeah, I was brought up in a, in a Christian household and, um, when
my mom passed away a couple years ago, I went through a really rough time.
Um, and I got really angry in all, in all honesty, and I got really frustrated
and I, I blamed the Lord for a lot of things and I, I strayed a lot and
I, I went through a really dark time.
Um.
And just recently I've, uh, I've kind of come back, I've come full
circle and, um, you know, a lot of things that my mom taught me when I
was little and a lot of things that, uh, you know, words I heard but never
really heard kind of thing, and Right.
Songs I listened to but never really thought about.
Like, they're starting to really reflect a lot differently.
And, um, you know, I, I know she would be really proud of, of where I am now.
And, um, my faith journey has been, has been in credible.
Um, and you know, we kind of talked about luck a little bit earlier, and
I really do believe that there's been so much that happened the last six
months of my life that it is completely inexplicable that some could call it luck.
And I've just, I've, at this point, I believe it's just God's plan.
I think I'm supposed to be where I am because it's the plan he's got for me.
Did you wanna talk about what's happened in the last six months?
I don't wanna go into too much detail.
Okay.
But, um, yeah.
Ever since the, ever since the World Championship, that was last, uh, August.
Yeah.
Uh.
I've just had a pretty transformative experience.
Um, just had a major, uh, end to one relationship and a beginning of another.
And, um, really understanding that, um, sometimes you have to have the
old versions of yourself die to grow.
Mm.
And sometimes it's just really important to go through the trials
because it shows you the parts of yourself that you just don't need.
Right?
Mm. Or parts of yourself that you thought you needed and you thought you clung onto.
But really that's not what's important.
Mm. Um, and yeah, it's been, uh, it's been a hard, a hard winner.
Um, I think people who know me well know kind of what I've been going through.
Um, but it's been really good.
It's been, it's been super illuminating and I've been surrounded by,
um, the tourist friends, right.
People who I know are, are really good.
Um, and it's, it's been, it's been an interesting
transformation, let's say that.
Well, I'm happy to hear that.
I am happy to hear that.
Thank you.
And you know, the parts of you that need to die, I mean, that's
never an easy process and it's not supposed to be an easy process.
No.
And I think when you take it from that, uh, perspective, it makes it easier to
appreciate when things are hard, that something beneficial will come out of it.
Right.
I know, um, a good friend of mine, Jay Bud, and he talks about, um, he's
been open about, he's a sniper with a British army and talk about PTSD and
mental health issues and the rest, and he's a good firefighter and now
a guide, high ranking mountain guide.
And, uh, he says, you know, I, I just liken it to.
When you're in the mountains and the storm's coming in and you put your
shelter and it's just beating you down and you get the worst sleep ever.
And it's just, it feels like it's never gonna end.
And I just have to remind myself that the best bluebird days on the
mountain often come after that storm.
Right.
And the same thing applies in his life and interesting.
Yep.
Yeah.
I was on a plane a little while ago and for whatever reason I was looking out and
it was earlier, I've taken so many stupid 5:00 AM flights outta Seattle recently.
I've probably like seven or eight of them in a row.
It's, oh man.
For whatever reason, I just keep doing that flight.
And I was flying down and I was, I was looking out the window and the thing
that kept coming to mind was like the darkest, the night is darkest before the
dawn and it really, really stuck with me.
And it's one of those things that's, um.
I've heard a lot of interesting sayings over the last little while,
but that one, that one stuck.
And I was like, you know what?
When it's dawn and when it's daytime, man, I'm gonna be happy.
Well, that's a great perspective.
'cause then you, when you're in it and it's dark and things
are bad, it feels like forever.
Yeah.
And it feels like it's never gonna, it's overwhelming and
Yeah.
Um, knowing that maybe, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow,
but, but it's gonna get better.
Yep.
Uh, I think helps a lot.
What's the future for you?
There's a lot.
Yeah, there's a, there's a lot.
I mean, I think, uh, the next little while there's a lot of
shooting going on right now.
Um, there's a lot of competing.
So I'm currently on the run up to my fourth consecutive world championships.
Wow.
I'm gonna shoot that one in Texas for Team Canada.
Uh, with a 3 0 8.
I'm on the, the limited team again, so
Okay.
Yeah.
This whole year I'm shooting 3 0 8.
I'm traveling around the country shooting 3 0 8.
There's
nothing wrong with 3 0 8.
Well, it's not great.
It works.
What do you like shooting?
Usually you're six Dasher.
I shoot six dasher.
Yeah.
So going to a 3 0 8 is a lot more bullet mass and a lot
more recoil, but, uh mm-hmm.
And a lot less wind forgiveness.
Mm-hmm.
It's kinda like shooting a hyped up 22 is what I feel like.
Um, so yeah, I mean, shooting is gonna be a big one.
I'm, uh, I'm doing.
I'm, I'm learning a bunch of stuff right now.
Stuff I wish I had learned last time.
I had, uh, done the Center for our World Championships.
So the goal this year is to, to get Canada on the podium for, um,
limited division to get us up there.
Uh, we have a, we have a strong team.
We have a bunch of really good guys.
Personally, I would love to get an individual medal, but a team
medal, um, would be awesome to get us on, on the top three.
Um, PRSI mean, you know, it's, it's fun.
I'm not necessarily too worried about where I end up in the,
in the season this year.
I'm just really focused on the, on the world championships and then
qualifying for the following year.
Uh, we're gonna have the World Rim Fire Championship in Lithuania.
Holy crap.
Have you ever been there before?
Never been to Lithuania,
no.
Me neither.
Yep.
Nope.
I mean, so I be
an adventure.
That will be an adventure for sure.
So the first Rimfire World Championship took me to Italy.
The second one's taken me to the uk.
Yeah.
And then now this one Lithuania.
So, huh.
I'm, uh, I'm in the running for the team.
I've got some pretty good results, so I'm pretty happy about that.
Um, the goal is to qualify and then honestly, after that, I don't know,
I don't know where, I don't know where shooting's gonna take me.
I'm, I'm, I'm cognizant of the fact that I'm not gonna do this forever.
Mm.
I know that I'm not gonna compete at this level forever.
Mm.
I know that at some point I definitely will slow down and
I need, I need to slow down.
Um, but it's when Right.
It's always the, it's always the question of when.
So I think that the next two years are gonna be really heavy on shooting.
Mm.
Um, and, you know, transferring that knowledge training and,
and, uh, working MBT and, and continuing to kind of grow there.
And then after that, I might slow down on the international
side and focus more locally.
So what are you running for your rim fire?
Uh, I run a, a fully custom, crazy looking gun.
Uh, it's a Zermatt arms Rex.
Mm. Uh, so it's a 700 footprint.
Uh, it's got an IBI barrel on it as all my guns do.
Yeah.
Uh, I just put a vortex, razor gen three on there, so the scope's worth
more than most people's total guns.
Uh, a CC elite just got put on there as well.
The build's actually really cool.
I just finished it up recently.
It's got a crazy paint scheme on it.
Um, so yeah, it was, uh, actually a really weird experience putting that
gun together because it was the first time in, I can't even remember how
long that I had taken a chassis out of the box, like true proper retail
packaging that I had fully designed and
Oh, that's cool.
It was a kind of surreal experience, right.
Like I, I took it out and I looked at everything.
I was like, yeah, I, I did this.
Right.
This is now like, this is a CCC number, whatever, X amount of
thousand red that are being produced.
Yeah.
But I have the very first prototype, which is on my other gun.
That is so cool.
Yeah.
And it was, uh, it was a weird one being like, okay, I'm gonna put
all these things together and just stuff that I've made over the years.
Right.
To make my.
You know, world championship contending gun, um, go shoot.
Right.
And it's, it's, uh, it was a, it was a cool like almost
imposter syndrome moment, right.
Really?
Yeah.
I kinda just been like, I, I made this.
Are you sure?
Like me?
Like cool.
Yeah, I guess.
But, um, yeah, it's, it's a fully built custom 22 and it's, uh,
it looks like a lot of other PRS guns you're gonna see out there.
Fair enough.
Yep.
What, uh, what, so when you're developing these chassis Yeah.
And you're coming up with design features and stuff, are you basically there, do
you think like, Hey, this is, this is a hundred percent and then now it's gonna
be well just tweak this little here.
Oh yeah.
We change this radius over here.
Oh yeah.
Absolutely.
I mean, we showed a chassis at Shot Show this year, the DRT,
which is sort of a brainchild of mine from a couple years ago.
And now to see it's a real thing is incredible.
Yeah.
It's, it's amazing.
But at Shot Show, we were ready to hit the go button, start
the CNC machines going, right.
We found a problem and we're like, okay, well.
We should go fix this.
Right?
So now it's delayed.
Mm-hmm.
And that is by far the most frustrating part of product development, right?
Is when you think you're done and you're like, okay, we're 85% of the way, 90%
the way there, or whatever, right?
And then you find something, it's like, oh, okay, now we have to go fix that right
Now we have to go and understand that.
And it's.
That's the super frustrating part.
And as someone, and admittedly, I am a, I'm sometimes a good enough person.
Right.
I don't, I'm not a perfect That is better
than perfect.
Right.
Exactly.
Done is better than perfect.
I lean that way a little bit more than perfection.
And a lot of the engineers in the office are like, no, perfection.
Right.
Has to be of ideas.
Um, that's not me.
Yeah.
So knowing when to say, okay, we're good and this is good
enough, is a, is a constant battle.
Yeah.
I get stuck in that perfection loop too.
Mm-hmm.
And even when it's perfect, I go back and I look at this stuff, I'm
like, what the hell was I thinking?
That's not perfect.
Like, how do I leave all this stuff in?
Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it, it, it, you're never ever gonna be perfect.
Mm. And sometimes you call it too early too, right?
It's like, oh, okay.
Maybe we shouldn't have done that when we did.
Right.
So, um.
Yeah, it's, it is a tricky one.
But that's the cool thing with building competition products or hunting products
or just products that are getting used out in the real world, is that you
just talk to the end users, right?
Right.
And you send them something, or you run something by them, right?
And you say, okay, well what do you think about this?
Right?
How do you feel about this?
And having those open conversations, right?
Like, none of this is designed in a vacuum.
Everything MDT does is, is out.
You know, we, we test it with our team, we test it with employees,
we test it with, with people.
And I think there are other companies that really struggle with that, where
their test bed is so small and so restricted and you see them do things,
you're like, well, why'd they do that?
Um, and it becomes pretty obvious pretty quick.
So, yeah, nothing we do is in a vacuum, in some cases.
It's almost too many opinions, too many cooks.
Well, it could
be hard 'cause everyone's got an idea of what, what they want.
And yeah, people will be upset.
Well, you didn't take my opinion into account.
And you just start like putting 'em all on a list and be like, okay,
this one's the weight of the highest.
So this is where we're starting.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, you know, ultimately we wanna make the best product possible, right?
Mm-hmm.
But for who and when.
Right.
Well, everyone's gonna be different.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So you have to, you have to sort of aggregate that out and say, okay,
well if we did this, would, you know, was it a good thing or a bad thing?
Okay.
Now, if we did these three things, are those all good things?
Okay, well, number two isn't Okay.
Maybe get rid of that one.
Right.
So it's a very hard, it's, that's one of the trickiest things about being
a product developer and pro product designer, is that you have to really
believe in the thing that you're making.
Mm. But be willing to say, you know what, it's just not
gonna get it all, all the time.
So what's the most popular products that people purchase from MDT
magazines?
Is it really?
Yep.
I would say magazines is probably like skew wise, the
thing that we sell the most.
Because I mean, they're essentially a consumable, right?
It's one of those things that people just buy and buy and buy and buy.
Okay.
Um, I think that the magazines, and also like the funniest
answer is chamber flags, right?
I think we run more chamber flags than anything else.
I got
a bunch of chamber flags,
right?
Uh, but no, I'd say like, I think magazines like buy volume are,
are the thing that we do the most.
Hmm.
Um, and then, yeah, we do a ton of chassis.
Just, it's really cool.
Like seeing the numbers is just like, man, this is, this is insane.
Right.
And
wow.
You would think at some point the market would just get saturated.
People just keep buying stuff.
Right.
People keep building guns.
Right.
Yeah.
People, people want to keep doing things and I think there's an aspect
of people wanting to customize, wanting to make it their own.
Right.
Wanting to change the look or the feel.
Sure.
And I think that's why it'll never slow down.
Yeah.
It's like, um, people get themselves in air 15 and they're
like, now they're a gunsmith.
Well, you're, you're a parts assembly, you're putting things back and forth.
Right.
And um, or maybe an armor, we can call you.
Right.
But it's fun.
It's like tinker toys are grownups.
Right.
Yeah.
And they can put all this different stuff and try it out and see how it works.
And
it's adult Lego.
Right.
Adult Lego.
There you go.
So is there anything that we haven't talked about that
we should be talking about?
Um, I think we covered a lot of it, honestly.
Yeah.
Um, we haven't talked too much about Capra as the board, um, C-C-A-P-R-A.
Um, yeah,
tell me about that.
Yeah, I mean that's another thing that in all honesty, kind of started
with like, Hey, can we do this?
Sure.
Let's do it kind of thing.
Yeah.
Um, and I think that there's some misconceptions about
what we do and, um, some.
Conflict of interest people perceive that we have.
And I just kinda wanted to clear a little bit of that up.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, so there is a board of five of us.
Um, we've, we're spread across, uh, three of us are in BC currently.
We have car, uh, so there's myself, there's Ryan McLean, there's Dave Ani.
We're all here in bc uh, Carly from Apex Optics.
Mm-hmm.
She's in Alberta, obviously.
And then we've got, um, Yannick, who's over in, uh, the East Coast.
He's in, um, I can never remember the actual town, but it's somewhere
in Quebec, somewhere in French.
Sure, sure.
Yeah.
Um, and so we, we make up the board of directors for the Canadian Precision
Rifle Association, but when it started, it was literally just Ryan McLean.
They reached out to him and they said, Hey, could you run the Canadian army?
He is like, I guess so.
And he called me and he's like, Hey, I need someone to help me out.
And at the time he was in Ontario, I was in BC and I was like, yeah, sure, why not?
Right?
Like, let's see where this goes.
Right.
There hadn't even been a World Cup and so he and I have been on the
board the longest and at this point I think we're getting ready to give
up our positions and get voted and, you know, go for, go for a new cycle.
Um, which is, which is fine.
We sh as it should be.
Right.
Um, but we've helped grow the sport, right?
We've helped build a sport and we've taken Canadian national teams
now to four different, or we're going into our fourth World Cup.
Crazy.
Um.
But we are all shooters by, by sort of default, we had to be shooters to
ensure that we knew what we were doing.
Right.
Ideally, we wouldn't be, ideally we would be retired guys who were just fuds,
who kind of knew about the industry.
But we are all active, right?
Except for Carly.
Carly's the only one who sort of industry, but she doesn't really shoot.
So they conflict people think.
Is that you guys are selecting maybe lesser competitors to
make you guys look good or what?
What's
the Well, routinely we make the team.
Right.
Oh,
fair enough.
Right.
That that's where the conflict comes in.
So a lot of people have accused us, not a lot, but there's a vocal minority
that have accused us of saying, well, we're rigging the results so that
you know that we make the team right.
Or that, you know, we're doing something in the background so that
we make the team and we've been accused of not being transparent
enough and there's been all kind of,
sounds like loser talk to me.
But hey, that's just my per perspective.
I don't know how we could have, I mean, there are some things, yes, we, early
on we could have been more transparent on maybe some of the qualifications
and how we were doing that, but I believe we've been extremely fair.
Mm-hmm.
Um, we've been extremely open and we haven't hidden anything.
Right.
It is extremely competitive in Canada right now to make the Canadian national
teams, and a lot of people, you know, treat it almost like barely cocky.
And they're like, oh, well I wanna be on the team, I'm just gonna apply.
Like, why?
Why am I not selected?
Right.
It's like you should, that's
not fair.
Yeah, exactly.
Right.
It's like, well, it's not supposed to be fair.
Right.
No.
We are trying to select the best athletes in Canada, right?
Yeah.
For the men's team, there's 10 people.
Right.
Well, actually no, there's more.
We go production and stuff like that, but for rim far, there is 10 people
in Canada, the top 10 shooters, who are going to shoot an international
novel for their country, right?
Mm-hmm.
We want to take absolutely the top 10 shooters, right?
If you're shooting three matches a year and they're all at your local
gun club and you're kind of mid pack, you're not coming with mm-hmm.
I'm sorry.
Right?
And it's, we've had to have some hard calls.
Um, and it is a thankless job That is a,
I believe it,
it's not fun.
It's kind of, I mean, I think the closest equivalent I have to you, like
going to fight things in court, right?
Mm-hmm.
And trying to like change policy.
It's like we're trying to build things for the future, right?
We're trying to help out, we're trying to establish an organization.
I've done a bunch of work for like the nonprofit, um, trying
to figure out legalities.
Right?
And we've had a whole bunch of issues where we couldn't accept
payments for like six months because we were a firearm company.
Like, it's frustrating.
Sure.
And it's just something we do for free in our spare time.
Yeah.
But we're also still shooters, right?
So we're gonna represent Canada.
Um.
There is no bias there, right?
Yeah.
We do things to actually legitimately bring in the best shooters,
and we're gonna open it up for voting at some point soon here.
Hmm.
I don't, I personally don't really wanna be on the board anymore.
It's, uh, it's, it's a time suck, right?
Yeah.
And that's unfortunate because I think you would probably, I think it's human
nature for us to see the negative,
right?
There's gonna be a small vocal minority who's out there trying to tear your
building down to make theirs look bigger.
Right.
And, you know, I had a friend come by the other day.
He's like, oh man, Travis, so many people in the community and they're just
rooting for you to win and look at this.
And I'm like, I'm looking at 'em like, okay, who are these people?
Right?
Because your mind gets stuck in,
right,
in those negative haters.
Like there's small group of people out there.
We're the largest of what we do in Canada.
Right.
But being the largest, you're gonna have people throwing rocks from below.
And sending anonymous emails off to government and anonymous emails
to grill a mail and all the rest.
And that can, that can sit in your head as like, what the hell, what's going on?
All I'm trying to do is help.
I'm trying to Right.
Trying to drive this forward.
So I, I can relate from that aspect.
And the only thing I guess I can say on that is there's probably
a lot more people who are behind you positively than negatively.
But it's hard to see when, when you're, when you're doing that and people,
we wouldn't be in the position we are right now without the efforts of
people like yourself, like Ryan and.
And it's, um, and all the other people who are on that board.
Yeah.
And you're not perfect.
There's gonna, there's gonna be times that you make mistakes, but maybe
someone else can step up and Right.
Show how they can perfect it.
Well, it's cool.
I mean, like, since, since we started the Canadian Precision Rifle
Association, we had one match in Ontario, one PRS Pro series match, and
we had probably in the neighborhood of maybe 50, maybe 75 registered
PRS members in the whole of Canada.
Mm.
At the time when, you know, we started kind of getting this going now.
We have five pro series matches.
Ours is a qualifier, so it's gonna draw people from all over the place.
Wow.
Um, we've got a Canadian region that was established to help the prairies grow,
and that was really in part by Carly.
Um, we've taken, again, four national teams.
We fundraised, uh, probably at this point 50 to $70,000 just to get these
teams to travel around the world.
Holy.
The crew, like the, the, the growth, you know, you know, you're saying like,
we were always focused on the negative.
Sure.
But like, if you look at the positives, it's crazy how far we've come, right?
Mm-hmm.
Just from like two, three to five of us just kind of hanging out
every now and then and just making decisions and trying to do something.
Wow.
So it's, um, it is huge and it's amazing to see the growth and it's,
it's really cool to see how far we've come when we look back at it.
But there definitely needs to be that personal agency.
We need to have those people step up.
We need to say, okay, well five of us can't do this forever.
Right.
Well, that's it.
You need to have people help also grow the sport rather than just complain.
I was asked to give a, uh, a talk video recorded talk for the, a
gun group for their A GM last year and uh, 'cause I wasn't gonna
be able to be there in person.
And basically that was, that was the crux of my talk that
I was trying to get across.
These gun groups are great, they do good work, but you know, who can do
a lot more work is if you step up and you do something right and use a gun
group as a resource, but it ain't never gonna change these individual groups.
They're not gonna make all the change for you.
Right.
The individual is gonna need to help.
So I had to say that very nicely.
Well also be the talker for the gun group.
Right.
But, um, but it's, I, I believe strongly in it.
I, I think that's a, um, an important takeaway.
Yeah.
So if people want to get a hold of you, what do I got?
North Star Precision training@gmail.com.
Yep.
And they can also follow you on Instagram.
Yep.
At Not Star.
Yeah.
Initially I spelled it wrong.
So that's on, that's on me.
Um, yeah, so the training business, uh, again, not a whole lot going on
there right now, but yeah, north Star Precision, uh, training on Facebook, on
Instagram, uh, you can find the bbc, PRL.
Uh, we have a website.
I think it's BC Precision Rifle League at dot, mailchimp@or.com
or something like that.
Uh, but yeah, we're on Facebook, Instagram, and then personally
you'll find me everywhere.
J Botha, uh, or Josh Boha.
Uh, I think on Instagram it's Jay Boha underscore, but um, yeah, check it out.
I, uh.
Social media is a necessary evil.
I don't love doing it, but it's, uh, it's definitely an
important part of what we do.
Um, but yeah, you'll see me traveling around the world
shooting guns all over the place.
Hobo with a gun basically.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Instead of a bindle.
You got sack.
You got your little rifle with a sack.
There you go.
Yeah.
I got my tripod over my shoulder.
I'm good to go.
So I'm gonna actually put links in the description.
Awesome.
So people don't have to remember all this.
Look into the description.
It's gonna be there on YouTube.
It's gonna be on the podcast.
Yeah.
Josh, thank you so much for being on this podcast.
I really enjoyed the chat.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me, Travis.
I really appreciate it.