1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,260 Bryant Gillespie: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a 2 00:00:04,260 --> 00:00:09,240 few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. 3 00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:14,430 Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, 4 00:00:14,670 --> 00:00:17,250 workflow, growth, and more. 5 00:00:18,270 --> 00:00:24,450 Your listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter COIs, 6 00:00:24,870 --> 00:00:27,750 Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,280 Before we jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout out to 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:37,380 our sponsor, GCI Digital Imaging Grand Format Printer to the Trade. 9 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:41,520 We talk a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of. 10 00:00:42,255 --> 00:00:48,135 Good partners and GCI Digital Imaging is a good partner to have owner TJ 11 00:00:48,375 --> 00:00:52,425 Bak and his team focus on providing killer customer service just the 12 00:00:52,425 --> 00:00:54,195 way grandmother used to make it. 13 00:00:54,345 --> 00:00:57,945 If you're interested in learning their approach to business, hop 14 00:00:57,950 --> 00:01:02,415 back into the archives to episode nine where the guys and I interview 15 00:01:02,475 --> 00:01:04,575 TJ about customer experience. 16 00:01:05,175 --> 00:01:09,495 So if you're looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, wraps, 17 00:01:09,765 --> 00:01:14,205 and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out 18 00:01:14,414 --> 00:01:19,605 GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com. 19 00:01:19,905 --> 00:01:20,565 All right guys. 20 00:01:20,595 --> 00:01:25,155 Welcome to the next edition of the Better Sign Shop podcast. 21 00:01:25,275 --> 00:01:31,455 As always, I am your host, co-host, Bryant Gillespie, and I've got, 22 00:01:31,545 --> 00:01:35,355 uh, some colleagues of mine, well, just one colleague today, 23 00:01:35,835 --> 00:01:39,255 Mike, the Sign Design Samurai. 24 00:01:40,035 --> 00:01:42,795 Riley, are we, are we going with Sign Design Samurai? 25 00:01:43,304 --> 00:01:43,815 What are we? 26 00:01:43,935 --> 00:01:47,205 Hey, nobody sent me any nicknames between the two, so now I'm kind 27 00:01:47,205 --> 00:01:49,515 of pissed, but just grasping 28 00:01:49,515 --> 00:01:50,685 Michael Riley: up straws at this point. 29 00:01:51,405 --> 00:01:52,215 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah. 30 00:01:52,664 --> 00:01:55,125 Why is no one sent us any more nicknames for you? 31 00:01:55,305 --> 00:01:59,835 Maybe we just call you, I'm gonna call you like the mike, the sign 32 00:01:59,865 --> 00:02:04,095 industry Mercedes-Benz or something, since that's been on my mind. 33 00:02:04,095 --> 00:02:04,935 I don't, I don't know. 34 00:02:05,955 --> 00:02:08,204 I was just trying to figure out how to tie it back to a car, but 35 00:02:08,835 --> 00:02:09,285 Michael Riley: whatever. 36 00:02:09,405 --> 00:02:10,365 Let me think about that one. 37 00:02:10,514 --> 00:02:11,835 See if I come up with a good analogy there. 38 00:02:11,835 --> 00:02:11,894 Yeah. 39 00:02:12,315 --> 00:02:12,675 Well, 40 00:02:13,394 --> 00:02:14,144 Bryant Gillespie: welcome Mike. 41 00:02:14,175 --> 00:02:15,525 Welcome to this episode. 42 00:02:15,704 --> 00:02:19,155 We are, I, I don't know, this is like the 15th episode. 43 00:02:19,335 --> 00:02:23,685 Let's, let's do like a, a quick little, like, recap how, you know, 44 00:02:23,690 --> 00:02:25,815 how are you, how are you feeling about everything that we've done? 45 00:02:25,820 --> 00:02:26,025 So, 46 00:02:27,075 --> 00:02:28,725 Michael Riley: You know, I'm actually amazed. 47 00:02:28,995 --> 00:02:31,605 I don't, this sounds terrible to say, but I'm kind of amazed 48 00:02:31,605 --> 00:02:32,745 we made it to 15 episodes. 49 00:02:32,745 --> 00:02:35,445 I mean, I, it's, I don't know about you, but I sometimes tend 50 00:02:35,445 --> 00:02:37,545 to not stick to things very well. 51 00:02:37,545 --> 00:02:42,674 So I'm, I'm, I'm proud of this that we've, we've made it this far. 52 00:02:42,704 --> 00:02:43,755 I mean, I think it's pretty cool. 53 00:02:43,785 --> 00:02:46,695 Bryant Gillespie: Let's, let's preface that with Yeah, yeah. 54 00:02:46,695 --> 00:02:47,745 I'm enjoying the following. 55 00:02:47,750 --> 00:02:49,035 I'm enjoying the podcast. 56 00:02:49,305 --> 00:02:54,465 Let's preface that and say that we, while we've stuck to the podcast, we have not 57 00:02:54,465 --> 00:02:56,805 stuck to the schedule that we set first. 58 00:02:57,870 --> 00:02:58,274 No, 59 00:02:58,355 --> 00:02:58,704 Michael Riley: no. 60 00:02:58,845 --> 00:03:00,015 Uhuh, that's been, that's been 61 00:03:00,019 --> 00:03:00,225 Bryant Gillespie: nothing. 62 00:03:00,225 --> 00:03:00,435 Not 63 00:03:00,435 --> 00:03:01,095 Michael Riley: in the slightest. 64 00:03:02,204 --> 00:03:02,535 No. 65 00:03:02,625 --> 00:03:04,605 But hey, you know, small victories though. 66 00:03:04,605 --> 00:03:05,865 We, we made it to 15. 67 00:03:06,674 --> 00:03:11,475 We have a, we have a, an official real sponsor and, you know, it's, it's 68 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,545 so weird to see, you know, scrolling through Facebook and see like random 69 00:03:16,545 --> 00:03:19,695 people on one of the sign industry, you know, Facebook groups like. 70 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:21,690 Hey, check out this podcast. 71 00:03:21,690 --> 00:03:22,710 We found like, this is great. 72 00:03:22,710 --> 00:03:24,240 Like, it's, it's really weird to see that. 73 00:03:24,270 --> 00:03:28,050 Like I know it's not, it's not like we're, you know, major celebrities or anything, 74 00:03:28,050 --> 00:03:31,430 but it is, it is weird to, to think that there are people out there that actually 75 00:03:31,435 --> 00:03:35,130 like, listen to this and, and maybe even want to hear what we have to say. 76 00:03:35,340 --> 00:03:37,710 It's, it's a, it's a strange thing. 77 00:03:37,710 --> 00:03:40,050 It's new to me, so I guess it's, it's pretty cool. 78 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,020 Bryant Gillespie: You're not sure what to do, what to do with all your fans that 79 00:03:43,020 --> 00:03:45,690 are like stalking you out in Portland? 80 00:03:46,350 --> 00:03:46,790 Yeah, 81 00:03:49,170 --> 00:03:51,960 Michael Riley: it's just a crowd of people gathered in front of my house waiting 82 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,340 for me to come outside to get the mail. 83 00:03:54,270 --> 00:03:55,560 Yeah, no, it's, it's pretty cool. 84 00:03:55,620 --> 00:03:56,610 I, I'm pretty proud of us. 85 00:03:56,610 --> 00:03:58,020 I think that it's, it's pretty neat. 86 00:03:58,380 --> 00:04:03,180 I, I've enjoyed a lot of the conversations that we've had and I think that it's 87 00:04:03,180 --> 00:04:06,210 just gonna get better over time as we can continue to grow, have more 88 00:04:06,210 --> 00:04:09,420 listeners and more people that want to be, you know, guests and talk to us. 89 00:04:09,420 --> 00:04:11,640 And it's been pretty neat, neat thing to be a part of. 90 00:04:12,210 --> 00:04:12,510 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 91 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:13,230 Yeah, I agree. 92 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:14,579 That's a great way to sum it up. 93 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,450 You know, I, I don't think he, and I'll speak for Peter here just because he's, 94 00:04:18,510 --> 00:04:23,070 he's not here, but I don't, I don't think any of us thought that, uh, we 95 00:04:23,075 --> 00:04:24,330 would get the response that we have. 96 00:04:24,390 --> 00:04:28,469 So if you're listening to this, know, first and foremost, we appreciate you. 97 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:30,300 We plan to continue doing this. 98 00:04:30,305 --> 00:04:31,110 We enjoy it. 99 00:04:31,170 --> 00:04:32,550 We need more nicknames. 100 00:04:32,610 --> 00:04:34,469 Number one, also spread the word. 101 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,690 Hey, we do, we do need more nicknames. 102 00:04:37,409 --> 00:04:37,950 Spread the word. 103 00:04:37,955 --> 00:04:40,560 We also like to interview guests from time to time. 104 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:42,900 Uh, those are enjoyable conversations. 105 00:04:43,290 --> 00:04:47,385 So, Spread the word, keep listening, send us nicknames. 106 00:04:47,925 --> 00:04:49,034 Not specifically in 107 00:04:49,034 --> 00:04:52,455 Michael Riley: that order, but yeah, and if anybody has any, you know, topics 108 00:04:52,455 --> 00:04:56,145 or things that you'd like to hear us talk about or discuss, uh, let us know 109 00:04:56,145 --> 00:04:58,875 too, cuz some, sometimes we struggle to come up with things to talk about. 110 00:04:58,875 --> 00:05:01,395 I mean, the site industry's a, it's a lot of topics, but at the same 111 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,885 time, there's not very many topics in this industry after a while. 112 00:05:03,885 --> 00:05:07,094 So we're always looking for new subject matter to, to beat on. 113 00:05:07,245 --> 00:05:09,465 If anybody has any ideas, roll ears. 114 00:05:10,395 --> 00:05:13,905 Bryant Gillespie: I, I think we're scared to do the customer horror story 115 00:05:13,905 --> 00:05:18,815 episode at this point, but maybe, maybe around Halloween next year 116 00:05:19,335 --> 00:05:21,315 Michael Riley: that'll be, yeah, they'd make it really great Halloween episode. 117 00:05:21,315 --> 00:05:23,475 Get some spooky music playing in the background and. 118 00:05:24,270 --> 00:05:25,440 The, yeah, a hundred 119 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:25,650 Bryant Gillespie: percent. 120 00:05:25,650 --> 00:05:26,280 That's a great idea. 121 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:30,060 All right, so the topic today, we'll, we'll just jump into it. 122 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:33,420 The art department, streamlining the art department. 123 00:05:33,420 --> 00:05:37,050 How can we improve efficiency? 124 00:05:37,450 --> 00:05:42,180 I feel like efficiency and design is, are not two words that go together, but how 125 00:05:42,180 --> 00:05:45,480 can we streamline the art side of this? 126 00:05:45,540 --> 00:05:50,550 Uh, as we've talked about in like past episodes here recently, design is 127 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,220 one of the most important pieces of, uh, running a successful sign shop. 128 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,440 Uh, unless you just don't do that, you outsource it to like a, a sign 129 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,750 designer, like a freelance one per se. 130 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:05,820 But I digress. 131 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:09,600 Um, very big piece of the puzzle. 132 00:06:10,604 --> 00:06:12,585 Uh, how can we make that better? 133 00:06:12,765 --> 00:06:15,765 Mike, if you're a designer, I'm sure you got some thoughts here. 134 00:06:16,664 --> 00:06:19,695 Um, I'm xDesign at this point. 135 00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:24,224 I don't, I don't even touch, I don't even open the illustrator on a weekly basis 136 00:06:24,224 --> 00:06:28,875 Michael Riley: anymore, so I'm so envious sometimes of you, you, you 137 00:06:28,875 --> 00:06:32,145 escape that, that black hole that just sucks you in and doesn't let you out. 138 00:06:32,414 --> 00:06:32,565 Yeah. 139 00:06:32,565 --> 00:06:37,215 You know, I think the, the number one thing to improve efficiency in your design 140 00:06:37,219 --> 00:06:41,895 department above all else is just get better at communication and get better at, 141 00:06:42,495 --> 00:06:46,500 you know, Creating that design brief to tell your designer what you need, whether 142 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,220 that's an in-house designer or you know, a third party freelancer that you use. 143 00:06:50,340 --> 00:06:54,600 Um, or hell, even if it's you, if you're your own designer, learn to, 144 00:06:55,260 --> 00:06:56,370 you know, talk to yourself really. 145 00:06:56,700 --> 00:06:56,910 Yeah. 146 00:06:57,260 --> 00:06:57,540 Right. 147 00:06:57,540 --> 00:06:58,140 No, seriously. 148 00:06:58,500 --> 00:07:00,330 I mean, there's, there's, there's merit to that actually. 149 00:07:00,335 --> 00:07:02,790 Like, you know, some people just like, I'm gonna design a sign 150 00:07:02,790 --> 00:07:03,900 without putting any thought into it. 151 00:07:03,900 --> 00:07:05,660 And then four hours later they're still struggl. 152 00:07:06,020 --> 00:07:08,570 You know, designers aren't mind readers, and I think a lot 153 00:07:08,570 --> 00:07:09,679 of people think that we are. 154 00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:13,340 And you can't just tell us, Hey, design a sign that goes on this building and 155 00:07:13,340 --> 00:07:16,309 expect the outcome that we create to be what you envision in your head. 156 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,609 Every, you know, design is very, very subjective and, and every 157 00:07:19,609 --> 00:07:21,919 designer is going to approach something a little bit differently. 158 00:07:22,070 --> 00:07:26,280 So, You know, clearly conveying to the designer what the parameters of the 159 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:30,690 project are, what the client needs are, what, what problems this design is trying 160 00:07:30,690 --> 00:07:32,910 to solve, I think are really important. 161 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:36,030 Uh, I think that last point is probably the most important, and it's 162 00:07:36,030 --> 00:07:38,970 probably the least understood, but, but really, really drilling down. 163 00:07:38,970 --> 00:07:42,960 And we talked about this with Dan Antonelli a little bit as well, that you 164 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,645 know, And, and I say this all the time to, you know, I probably sound like I'm 165 00:07:46,645 --> 00:07:49,465 beating a dead horse at this point, but we're, we're in the marketing industry. 166 00:07:49,465 --> 00:07:51,925 We're in the advertising industry, and even though we're designing, 167 00:07:52,195 --> 00:07:55,435 you know, what could sometimes be a fairly utilitarian thing, like a, a 168 00:07:55,435 --> 00:07:59,905 channel letter sign, it's still that business's primary means of advertising. 169 00:08:00,085 --> 00:08:03,355 And so thinking about it from that perspective, and, and this is an 170 00:08:03,745 --> 00:08:07,045 advertising tool, how is this going to help this business is important. 171 00:08:07,045 --> 00:08:10,945 And, you know, if there's a, if there's a sales rep or project manager 172 00:08:10,945 --> 00:08:14,035 between the designer and the client, that sales rep becomes the funnel for 173 00:08:14,035 --> 00:08:15,925 all the information to the designer. 174 00:08:15,930 --> 00:08:19,465 So really, really getting that communication dialed in between the 175 00:08:19,465 --> 00:08:23,815 designer and the, you know, the project leader is, is the single most important 176 00:08:23,815 --> 00:08:26,665 thing I think you can do to make your design department more efficient. 177 00:08:26,845 --> 00:08:29,215 And then some, I mean, and I think that's where a lot of 178 00:08:29,220 --> 00:08:31,465 places really drop the ball too. 179 00:08:31,470 --> 00:08:34,465 I mean, as a freelance designer, I work for a lot of sign companies 180 00:08:34,465 --> 00:08:37,945 around the country and still on a fairly regular basis, like I'll get a. 181 00:08:38,370 --> 00:08:41,310 You know, a screenshot of like a, you know, at a three quarter 182 00:08:41,310 --> 00:08:44,220 angle of a building around it from Google Street View and, and just 183 00:08:44,220 --> 00:08:46,230 like, I need a sign on this wall. 184 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:49,520 Bryant Gillespie: Uh, make it happen. 185 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:49,720 Okay. 186 00:08:49,725 --> 00:08:50,160 Make it fun. 187 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:50,430 Yeah, 188 00:08:50,430 --> 00:08:53,130 Michael Riley: I mean, I can, I can definitely put a sign on that 189 00:08:53,135 --> 00:08:56,040 wall, but, uh, more information would probably be helpful so that 190 00:08:56,045 --> 00:08:58,860 that sign does what it's intended to do and doesn't waste your clients. 191 00:08:58,860 --> 00:08:59,310 That's money. 192 00:08:59,790 --> 00:08:59,970 Yeah. 193 00:08:59,970 --> 00:09:00,870 I mean that's, that's a big 194 00:09:00,870 --> 00:09:01,400 Bryant Gillespie: thing for me. 195 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,270 I, I think that's, yeah, I think that's great advice. 196 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,590 We're really curious to hear what our guest has to say on the matter today. 197 00:09:07,650 --> 00:09:13,680 Uh, we've got Brian Seder from Artwork IQ and, uh, the new project 198 00:09:13,685 --> 00:09:17,670 they're working on Task Os, which is, uh, like design automation. 199 00:09:17,790 --> 00:09:18,960 I'm sure he'll tell us more about it. 200 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,970 Brian has built a large artwork provider. 201 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:30,480 Um, so they provide artwork services at artwork iq, like, uh, redrawing setup, 202 00:09:30,570 --> 00:09:35,640 artwork, automation, vectorization conversion, kind of all those things. 203 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:36,560 So they are. 204 00:09:37,980 --> 00:09:39,570 Focus on like the production art. 205 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:44,340 So, and, and I'm curious to hear like how they have streamlined that process 206 00:09:44,340 --> 00:09:46,320 and, and kind of what goes into that. 207 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:47,190 You know, there's like the Yeah. 208 00:09:47,390 --> 00:09:50,400 I'm really the creative side of design and then you have like 209 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,260 the production aspect as well. 210 00:09:52,265 --> 00:09:54,660 So I, I think this will be a good conversation. 211 00:09:54,935 --> 00:09:59,145 With, with you the super creative, and I, I would say you're, you're pretty 212 00:09:59,145 --> 00:10:02,415 efficient at this point as well, but I, I wonder if there's some more tips 213 00:10:02,415 --> 00:10:03,195 Michael Riley: we can get out of it. 214 00:10:03,405 --> 00:10:04,695 Yeah, I'm really excited for this one. 215 00:10:04,695 --> 00:10:09,525 I mean, design is a weird animal because it does require you to be efficient and 216 00:10:09,525 --> 00:10:14,205 come up with ways to do things faster and quicker and, and, and, and easier. 217 00:10:14,385 --> 00:10:18,855 But at the same time, because it is wholly creative as well, you can't 218 00:10:18,855 --> 00:10:20,055 really force that or rush that. 219 00:10:20,055 --> 00:10:22,575 So you k you're kind of weird and there's this weird, like middle ground between 220 00:10:22,575 --> 00:10:25,215 like, I've gotta be as efficient as I can to get this done fairly quickly. 221 00:10:25,305 --> 00:10:29,115 But also I, I also need to take my time so that the design looks good. 222 00:10:29,385 --> 00:10:31,275 So I'm really excited to see how this guy's kind of like 223 00:10:31,275 --> 00:10:32,415 married those two together. 224 00:10:32,565 --> 00:10:35,265 And especially like you said on the production, uh, end of things. 225 00:10:35,265 --> 00:10:38,775 I mean, you're, you really can't automate just, you know, creativity, right? 226 00:10:38,775 --> 00:10:39,545 Like that's creativity. 227 00:10:39,545 --> 00:10:41,415 That's not something that will, yeah, yeah, you can't do that. 228 00:10:41,415 --> 00:10:45,225 But there's so many like ancillary components to design. 229 00:10:45,850 --> 00:10:47,200 Suck up a lot of time. 230 00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:49,870 Um, and that's really where the efficiency comes into play. 231 00:10:49,870 --> 00:10:53,650 Like, like recreating a logo, like, I mean, on a daily basis I get low 232 00:10:53,650 --> 00:10:59,230 quality, you know, screenshots and, and, and JPEGs of somebody's logo. 233 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,320 And I've gotta figure out a inefficient way to recreate those. 234 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,840 And if I've got three or four of those to do in a day, even if they only 235 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,140 take 30 minutes, 45 minutes a piece to, to run through illustrator and 236 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:11,830 redraw, that's still a couple hours, three hours a day where I'm not being 237 00:11:11,830 --> 00:11:15,100 creative, I'm just trying to get something done so that I can be creative. 238 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:18,730 So automating that, right, coming up with a process for it, I think is really cool. 239 00:11:18,730 --> 00:11:20,110 So I'm excited to see what this guy's up to. 240 00:11:20,290 --> 00:11:22,660 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, let's, let's bring him on without further ado. 241 00:11:23,530 --> 00:11:24,010 All right guys. 242 00:11:24,070 --> 00:11:29,110 So we are back with Brian Seder, our guest for today to talk about streamlining 243 00:11:29,470 --> 00:11:31,420 the art and design department. 244 00:11:31,990 --> 00:11:36,910 Brian has like three different companies and I would not introduce you in the 245 00:11:36,910 --> 00:11:42,370 proper way, Brian, so why don't you give us like the, the 5 cent introduction. 246 00:11:44,050 --> 00:11:44,890 Brian Saetre: All right, thanks Brian. 247 00:11:45,314 --> 00:11:46,875 So I guess I can start. 248 00:11:47,205 --> 00:11:49,335 I, this could be a history lesson actually. 249 00:11:49,425 --> 00:11:53,535 Uh, this story sort of starts after World War II in, uh, 1947. 250 00:11:54,765 --> 00:11:56,295 My grandfather got back from, I like where this is going. 251 00:11:56,835 --> 00:11:57,015 Yeah. 252 00:11:57,015 --> 00:12:00,915 My grandfather got back from the war, and my understanding is that at the time, 253 00:12:00,915 --> 00:12:04,694 because of the war and also just because of technology advances, uh, there were 254 00:12:04,694 --> 00:12:06,555 a lot of new innovations in plastics. 255 00:12:07,035 --> 00:12:10,694 So, uh, my grandfather saw an opportunity there and started a screen printing 256 00:12:10,694 --> 00:12:16,305 company for printing plastics, which led to my dad, uh, and my, both of my uncles 257 00:12:16,305 --> 00:12:17,895 getting into the printing world as well. 258 00:12:18,165 --> 00:12:21,645 Uh, and then that led to me growing up with it, like basically being surrounded 259 00:12:21,650 --> 00:12:24,285 by a bunch of, uh, bunch of printers. 260 00:12:24,645 --> 00:12:27,194 Back then they were doing a lot of la large format stuff. 261 00:12:27,345 --> 00:12:30,915 So my dad tells kind of funny story about how my grandfather, who was 262 00:12:30,915 --> 00:12:35,115 pretty short, would only hire people who are like 6 4, 6 5, because they 263 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,625 need to have arms long enough to like move the squeegee across the huge, 264 00:12:39,204 --> 00:12:43,605 um, huge pieces they were printing. 265 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:45,000 So that's funny. 266 00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:46,560 Yeah, so 267 00:12:47,099 --> 00:12:47,370 Bryant Gillespie: I'm sorry. 268 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,609 I definitely fall into the, the short category, so I wouldn't 269 00:12:50,609 --> 00:12:51,930 have made, it wouldn't have made 270 00:12:51,930 --> 00:12:52,319 Brian Saetre: the cut? 271 00:12:52,890 --> 00:12:53,280 No. 272 00:12:53,285 --> 00:12:57,120 Not as a, not as a screen printer, but, uh, yeah, so I guess my dad has 273 00:12:57,359 --> 00:12:59,849 like, memories of these giants that would just like, kind of throw 'em 274 00:12:59,849 --> 00:13:02,579 up in the air and like play catch with him in the screen printing shop. 275 00:13:02,579 --> 00:13:02,699 So, 276 00:13:05,699 --> 00:13:06,239 Bryant Gillespie: uh, that 277 00:13:06,239 --> 00:13:06,839 Brian Saetre: sounds awesome. 278 00:13:07,319 --> 00:13:10,859 Yeah, so I definitely grew up with that in my family's culture. 279 00:13:11,069 --> 00:13:16,199 Uh, so yeah, both uncles worked there and actually my dad and, uh, my uncle Ray 280 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,660 ended up buying it from, from their dad. 281 00:13:18,780 --> 00:13:23,699 So they owned it and about 1996, they sold it to a manufacturing company that 282 00:13:23,704 --> 00:13:24,780 they're working really closely with. 283 00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:28,589 And my dad didn't love being an employee, which I totally understand. 284 00:13:28,859 --> 00:13:32,910 I've never been one myself and asked me if you, if we wanted 285 00:13:32,910 --> 00:13:34,020 to go in the business together. 286 00:13:34,170 --> 00:13:37,290 So this was like when I was in, I think I was in eighth grade, I was like 14, 15. 287 00:13:37,589 --> 00:13:38,370 Was I in seventh grade? 288 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,510 Yeah, something like that. 289 00:13:39,660 --> 00:13:41,640 This was like right at the beginning of when people were using the 290 00:13:41,645 --> 00:13:44,339 internet for business and it wasn't just like academics and. 291 00:13:45,090 --> 00:13:47,970 I mean, there were websites obviously, but we had one of the 292 00:13:47,970 --> 00:13:51,000 first websites, uh, I put one of the first websites online for ordering 293 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,160 bumper stickers and decals and stuff. 294 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,310 We got listed at the top of the search engines at the time, which I'm, I'm 295 00:13:56,310 --> 00:13:57,630 dating myself a little, but it was 296 00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:59,850 Bryant Gillespie: Lyco and likely we 297 00:13:59,855 --> 00:14:01,410 Brian Saetre: were way up there on Lycos. 298 00:14:01,650 --> 00:14:05,189 We dominated Excite, oh, was it called HotBot or one of the other ones. 299 00:14:05,189 --> 00:14:05,910 And Infoseek. 300 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:07,980 Infoseek was like the one I really kind of nailed. 301 00:14:07,980 --> 00:14:09,720 I got, I remember the phone. 302 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,640 Um, so we had like more work than we could possibly like even 303 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,390 quote, which was pretty cool. 304 00:14:15,510 --> 00:14:17,430 Uh, pretty cool way to get a company started. 305 00:14:17,550 --> 00:14:18,780 So this was infographics. 306 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,270 The last company that my grandfather started with, screen Print Products 307 00:14:21,270 --> 00:14:24,720 Corporation, and I don't think it goes under that name anymore, but, so yeah, 308 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,090 we started infographics pretty soon. 309 00:14:27,210 --> 00:14:28,620 Let's see, like some major stuff we did. 310 00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:31,050 We did a, a big project for the Menards racing team really 311 00:14:31,050 --> 00:14:32,939 early on, which was kind of fun. 312 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,640 And then for, uh, for nato. 313 00:14:35,670 --> 00:14:37,100 So we printed, oh, how many, oh. 314 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,660 How many hundreds of thousands it was. 315 00:14:39,660 --> 00:14:42,990 It was so many little pink badges that when all the NATO soldiers 316 00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:45,780 badges, like these little stickers that went on their badges. 317 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:46,530 That's cool. 318 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,870 Um, so just reminiscing a little here. 319 00:14:48,875 --> 00:14:51,750 Maybe I'm getting into too much detail, but, um No, no, no, that's 320 00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:51,990 Bryant Gillespie: fine. 321 00:14:52,410 --> 00:14:56,190 Yeah, we tend to, we, we, we are not afraid to ramble here. 322 00:14:56,190 --> 00:14:57,600 So I noticed, I 323 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,100 Brian Saetre: noticed your podcast tend to be on the long side actually. 324 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:04,020 I was like, I'm kind of good at rambling, but am I gonna be able to ramble 325 00:15:04,020 --> 00:15:06,990 for an hour and 15 minutes or more? 326 00:15:08,430 --> 00:15:09,120 It goes quick. 327 00:15:09,390 --> 00:15:11,130 I think I'm probably up for it actually. 328 00:15:11,250 --> 00:15:13,950 So, uh, kind of digitize the place. 329 00:15:13,980 --> 00:15:18,840 Uh, built a database that they're still using today, which is crazy scary, but it 330 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,270 got pretty into programming, uh, coding. 331 00:15:21,270 --> 00:15:25,050 And then when I went to college, I started what would become artwork at Q, which 332 00:15:25,050 --> 00:15:27,780 is one of the companies that I'm like actively participating in right now. 333 00:15:27,930 --> 00:15:31,620 And what we do is we work with lots and lots of different industries, but a 334 00:15:31,625 --> 00:15:33,180 big part of that is the sign industry. 335 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,735 Uh, and we take any images they get from their customers that aren't 336 00:15:36,735 --> 00:15:39,495 usable and we do whatever needs to be done to make them usable. 337 00:15:39,555 --> 00:15:43,995 More and more, we're doing like, data driven stuff with like mapping and Power 338 00:15:43,995 --> 00:15:47,835 BI and Tableau and different programs like that, which probably isn't relevant 339 00:15:47,835 --> 00:15:51,165 to this, but, um, yeah, we kind of got our start and we still do a lot of, a 340 00:15:51,165 --> 00:15:55,515 lot of work for sign makers and graves, that sort of, that sort of industry. 341 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:56,564 Yeah, that's so always a 342 00:15:56,564 --> 00:15:57,135 Bryant Gillespie: problem. 343 00:15:57,135 --> 00:15:59,655 Was always our biggest headache at Yeah. 344 00:16:00,075 --> 00:16:00,675 Uh, our shop. 345 00:16:00,675 --> 00:16:04,905 Was it like getting proper files or, you know, like if we've gotta 346 00:16:04,905 --> 00:16:06,735 create something, so mm-hmm. 347 00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:07,965 Totally understand you there. 348 00:16:08,444 --> 00:16:13,665 Mike was just saying before you came on that like, his creative time is reduced 349 00:16:13,845 --> 00:16:18,275 every single day because of like crappy files that he's gotta recreate or, or 350 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:18,915 Brian Saetre: something like that. 351 00:16:19,665 --> 00:16:20,115 Right. 352 00:16:20,235 --> 00:16:23,865 So our, our idea is, you know, you have, you tell us what, what 353 00:16:23,865 --> 00:16:25,005 you're using to make this thing. 354 00:16:25,305 --> 00:16:28,095 If you want to go into enough detail, you can like tell us 355 00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:30,975 exactly what like pressure you're gonna use and all the tolerances. 356 00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:33,960 And we'll make sure that like every image comes through just the way you 357 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,610 need it for that particular process. 358 00:16:35,819 --> 00:16:38,910 So it's kind of like a black box you throw garbage art into and get good art out. 359 00:16:40,199 --> 00:16:41,730 That's the kind of one way of thinking about it. 360 00:16:41,850 --> 00:16:43,560 Um, but on the inside of that, that's nice. 361 00:16:43,780 --> 00:16:47,819 Uh, like it built, I had to build, um, an e r p, like an enterprise. 362 00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:49,290 What does that even stand for? 363 00:16:49,295 --> 00:16:51,270 Enterprise resource. 364 00:16:51,270 --> 00:16:52,800 Michael Riley: Enterprise research Planning. 365 00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:53,970 Brian Saetre: There you go. 366 00:16:54,030 --> 00:16:54,329 Yeah. 367 00:16:55,290 --> 00:16:56,040 Sorry for pointing at you. 368 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:56,850 Like that isn't kinda weird. 369 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:58,890 Uh, yeah, we That's alright. 370 00:16:59,730 --> 00:16:59,910 Yeah. 371 00:16:59,915 --> 00:17:02,910 I built one of those, I guess that's the best way to describe it anyway. 372 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:06,150 Uh, to handle all the orders, take all the payments, keep track of all the 373 00:17:06,150 --> 00:17:10,470 orders, built an API so bigger customers of ours can, can integrate with it. 374 00:17:10,474 --> 00:17:14,310 And also on the artwork side, having thousands of customers, 375 00:17:14,310 --> 00:17:15,420 you really need to be organized. 376 00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:19,470 So lots of standard operating procedures and lots of scripts. 377 00:17:19,619 --> 00:17:22,920 And what we found in time is that that became pretty difficult to 378 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,359 manage because the standard operating procedures were in one place and our e 379 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,330 r p and the scripts and the automations. 380 00:17:31,260 --> 00:17:35,820 Were sometimes you would just manually run the script. 381 00:17:35,820 --> 00:17:38,460 You'd go into Adobe Illustrator or Photoshop and file select 382 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:39,389 script and then run it. 383 00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:42,600 For some companies we would like build it into a little plugin where 384 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,600 like there was a whole bunch of, whole bunch of steps for each one. 385 00:17:46,110 --> 00:17:50,340 But the fact that this, the scripting, the automation and the the SOPs were 386 00:17:50,340 --> 00:17:52,169 separate, I think was kind of a problem. 387 00:17:52,649 --> 00:17:56,610 So that's what gave me the idea for Task Os, which is kind of my current 388 00:17:56,610 --> 00:18:02,100 passion and my baby, where we, uh, so the software, you create your, uh, SOPs in 389 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:05,669 the software, and then instead of having people manually go through and follow 390 00:18:05,669 --> 00:18:09,300 those, all of the steps, which you can do, is you can automate certain steps. 391 00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:12,990 So this integrates with, uh, currently integrates with the Adobe Suite, and 392 00:18:12,990 --> 00:18:16,560 we're also making integrations with artificial intelligence software 393 00:18:16,679 --> 00:18:19,909 like Open ai, Dali Chat, G P T. 394 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:22,530 Um, and, and other systems there. 395 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,330 So, uh, it's kind of this what what about Corll Mike is, uh, thinking 396 00:18:27,330 --> 00:18:28,379 about it, thinking about it. 397 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,440 Uh, a lot of our customers do use Corll draw, especially the, uh, it's quite 398 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,649 common at the screen printing customers and pretty common at sign makers too. 399 00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:39,750 So it's, uh, like 400 00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:42,240 Bryant Gillespie: a whole different tool set on the back end though, right. 401 00:18:42,389 --> 00:18:43,649 For it is like 402 00:18:43,649 --> 00:18:44,340 Brian Saetre: making it work. 403 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:45,570 It is very d. 404 00:18:46,274 --> 00:18:48,615 There are ways of scripting things in there, but I haven't 405 00:18:48,735 --> 00:18:50,115 actually done it yet, honestly. 406 00:18:50,355 --> 00:18:53,504 But it is definitely pretty high on our list of, of apps to integrate 407 00:18:53,594 --> 00:18:56,534 because it is, it is used in the, in the graphics industry and that's sort 408 00:18:56,534 --> 00:18:59,925 of where we're starting out with our, uh, offering our automations cuz it's 409 00:18:59,925 --> 00:19:02,594 what we're most familiar and can kind of offer the most value, I think. 410 00:19:02,834 --> 00:19:03,105 Yeah. 411 00:19:03,165 --> 00:19:03,344 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 412 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:03,885 A hundred percent. 413 00:19:04,014 --> 00:19:04,504 Yeah. 414 00:19:04,510 --> 00:19:07,665 It was like, it was interesting how we ran across each other. 415 00:19:07,665 --> 00:19:10,725 Like, I think it was James Sours that introduced us. 416 00:19:11,205 --> 00:19:13,814 It was, I, I had done some work with James. 417 00:19:13,844 --> 00:19:15,824 He was like, Hey, you gotta check out this guy. 418 00:19:15,824 --> 00:19:17,594 I know you're in the sign and print space. 419 00:19:17,625 --> 00:19:20,054 Like, he's doing some really cool automation stuff. 420 00:19:20,054 --> 00:19:21,645 I know that's up your alley. 421 00:19:21,645 --> 00:19:25,004 And I, I took a look and I, I was like, this is really smart. 422 00:19:25,635 --> 00:19:26,475 Just like bringing. 423 00:19:27,149 --> 00:19:28,439 Both pieces together. 424 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:29,090 Mm-hmm. 425 00:19:29,169 --> 00:19:32,189 And, and like we, we've talked about this before and it's like some of the things 426 00:19:32,189 --> 00:19:35,669 that we're doing at Better Sign Shop is like, let's bring all these pieces 427 00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:40,830 together, like you've got, instead of having the SOPs over here and then like 428 00:19:40,830 --> 00:19:44,610 the, the business in like the scripts, like you mentioned, or like, I, I don't 429 00:19:44,610 --> 00:19:50,879 want to have a, a dock up with the s o p and then try to follow it over here. 430 00:19:50,879 --> 00:19:53,100 I just want it to be in context. 431 00:19:53,580 --> 00:19:53,669 Mm-hmm. 432 00:19:53,915 --> 00:19:55,350 So, to me, that makes a lot of sense. 433 00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:57,840 Brian Saetre: And a nice side effect is if you're using like, 434 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,600 template-based workflows, it'll pull up your templates automatically 435 00:20:00,659 --> 00:20:02,010 and it'll even switch apps for you. 436 00:20:02,014 --> 00:20:04,800 So if you have a step that's happening in a different app, it'll pull the 437 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,209 app up for you when you need it. 438 00:20:06,209 --> 00:20:07,649 So you don't even have to think about that. 439 00:20:07,770 --> 00:20:10,230 Like thinking about opening it and going to where it is. 440 00:20:10,439 --> 00:20:12,780 I know it sounds like a small thing, but as like a matter of 441 00:20:12,784 --> 00:20:14,129 workflow, it's, it's amazing. 442 00:20:14,129 --> 00:20:14,760 I really like it. 443 00:20:15,929 --> 00:20:16,020 Yeah. 444 00:20:16,409 --> 00:20:19,080 Bryant Gillespie: Mike, what's your initial impression? 445 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,189 What's your initial take here? 446 00:20:21,915 --> 00:20:24,585 Michael Riley: I mean, I'm just a lowly designer, so a lot of what you guys are 447 00:20:24,585 --> 00:20:26,175 talking about is a bit above my pay grade. 448 00:20:26,325 --> 00:20:27,165 Um, this, this is nothing lowly 449 00:20:27,165 --> 00:20:27,705 Brian Saetre: about design. 450 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,485 I I'm not a designer, so I really appreciate what you do. 451 00:20:31,485 --> 00:20:32,265 It's like magic. 452 00:20:34,155 --> 00:20:36,495 Michael Riley: It, it actually, it mostly is magic in witchcraft. 453 00:20:36,495 --> 00:20:39,355 There's, there's, that's about the truest statement you'll ever hear 454 00:20:39,645 --> 00:20:41,325 about design is, it is mostly magic. 455 00:20:41,595 --> 00:20:45,105 No, it, it is really, it's really fascinating, uh, how you're, you 456 00:20:45,105 --> 00:20:46,065 are trying to tile that together. 457 00:20:46,065 --> 00:20:46,695 It's really cool. 458 00:20:47,025 --> 00:20:52,245 I, um, I, I will be waiting, uh, for a Corel draw integration for sure. 459 00:20:52,335 --> 00:20:53,235 You're a Corr draw user. 460 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:53,565 Okay. 461 00:20:53,715 --> 00:20:53,925 Yeah. 462 00:20:53,930 --> 00:20:54,225 Sort of. 463 00:20:54,225 --> 00:20:57,195 Unfortunately, you know, I was a, an Adobe. 464 00:20:57,705 --> 00:20:59,565 Fanboy for most of my career. 465 00:20:59,565 --> 00:21:04,305 But the reality is Corra is just, Hey, Mike's significantly better. 466 00:21:04,305 --> 00:21:04,875 I keep trailing 467 00:21:04,875 --> 00:21:05,595 Bryant Gillespie: off the mic. 468 00:21:05,715 --> 00:21:06,435 Oh, sorry. 469 00:21:06,465 --> 00:21:07,815 We're gotta get you a different mic, dude. 470 00:21:07,935 --> 00:21:08,565 I know. 471 00:21:09,165 --> 00:21:12,045 It's, I'm sorry to make you deep through it. 472 00:21:12,045 --> 00:21:12,135 I 473 00:21:12,135 --> 00:21:12,495 Michael Riley: really am. 474 00:21:13,075 --> 00:21:13,395 I know. 475 00:21:13,395 --> 00:21:17,145 It's like I'm, I'm trying not to, but it's just, it's awkward 476 00:21:17,145 --> 00:21:18,885 and, and it's not a natural. 477 00:21:19,395 --> 00:21:21,015 Do you want me to go back and say that again? 478 00:21:21,555 --> 00:21:22,125 No, no, that's 479 00:21:22,125 --> 00:21:22,575 Brian Saetre: okay. 480 00:21:22,580 --> 00:21:22,715 Okay. 481 00:21:22,725 --> 00:21:24,165 I think, I think I followed, yeah. 482 00:21:24,235 --> 00:21:24,675 Okay. 483 00:21:24,675 --> 00:21:24,875 Yeah, yeah. 484 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:25,425 Careful, careful. 485 00:21:25,425 --> 00:21:27,015 Listening is required, but I think I got it. 486 00:21:27,475 --> 00:21:27,835 Yeah. 487 00:21:28,065 --> 00:21:28,275 Yeah. 488 00:21:28,275 --> 00:21:28,395 The 489 00:21:28,395 --> 00:21:29,235 Michael Riley: gains up all the way too. 490 00:21:29,745 --> 00:21:30,235 Yeah. 491 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:30,375 Yeah. 492 00:21:30,435 --> 00:21:34,905 I, I was a, an adobe, you know, power user for years and years, but, but the 493 00:21:34,905 --> 00:21:38,515 reality is, especially when you enter into the, the, like the larger electrical 494 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,425 sign arena, which is where most of my work is Corral draw, just objectively 495 00:21:43,425 --> 00:21:45,015 beats the pants off of Illustrator. 496 00:21:45,075 --> 00:21:49,169 It's a, it's a terrible clunky, like, Almost amateur hour 497 00:21:49,169 --> 00:21:50,520 program in a lot of regards. 498 00:21:50,879 --> 00:21:53,429 And it does, it's got a learning curve to it, but, um, when you 499 00:21:53,429 --> 00:21:56,820 understand it, it's actually, it, it, it's significantly better than 500 00:21:56,820 --> 00:21:57,960 Illustrator at a lot of things. 501 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,770 And, and so it's, it's a very commonly used program on, on the 502 00:22:01,770 --> 00:22:02,970 science side of the industry. 503 00:22:03,090 --> 00:22:03,960 Yeah, I've certainly seen 504 00:22:03,965 --> 00:22:06,720 Brian Saetre: it used a lot, but I, I guess I know a little bit less about, 505 00:22:06,879 --> 00:22:09,120 about why, why for electrical science. 506 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:10,919 Is that something that's, um, appealing? 507 00:22:11,655 --> 00:22:16,245 Michael Riley: It's almost more, it's like rolling a cad design software like 508 00:22:16,245 --> 00:22:18,405 AutoCAD or something into Illustrator. 509 00:22:18,525 --> 00:22:21,825 It does a lot better with, you know, multi-page documents than 510 00:22:21,825 --> 00:22:23,385 Illustrator and templating pages. 511 00:22:23,655 --> 00:22:27,165 Um, it has built in native scaling and dimensioning tools, which Illustrator 512 00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:31,125 does not to achieve what you do, what you can do natively and corral. 513 00:22:31,395 --> 00:22:35,445 You've gotta use Illustrator, you have to use Photoshop, InDesign, and also a 514 00:22:35,445 --> 00:22:39,705 third party plugin called CAD Tools, which is horrifically inefficient if you have 515 00:22:39,705 --> 00:22:41,775 to start using all those side by side. 516 00:22:42,045 --> 00:22:42,585 You know what I mean? 517 00:22:43,005 --> 00:22:46,305 And the big, the big piece of the puzzle there is CAD tools, which is 518 00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:49,065 the plugin which gives you scaling and dimensioning and illustrator. 519 00:22:49,425 --> 00:22:52,665 And it's, I'm hesitant to like shit all over a piece of 520 00:22:52,665 --> 00:22:55,485 software, but it deserves it. 521 00:22:56,785 --> 00:22:58,395 It's, it's truly awful. 522 00:22:58,695 --> 00:22:59,685 It works half the time. 523 00:22:59,685 --> 00:23:00,645 It doesn't work half the time. 524 00:23:00,645 --> 00:23:01,755 It crashes constantly. 525 00:23:02,145 --> 00:23:06,900 It's a, you know, they try their best, but it's just, It's not that good and 526 00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:08,280 it's, it's really inefficient to use. 527 00:23:08,610 --> 00:23:11,820 Um, which is the big reason why a lot of shops have moved over to Corral 528 00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:15,600 Draw from Illustrator because the workflow and Illustrator to create the, 529 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,310 a kind of technical drawing is mm-hmm. 530 00:23:17,550 --> 00:23:18,720 It's inefficient compared to Illustrator. 531 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,300 And there's a lot of guys out there that will like hardcore disagree with 532 00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:24,210 me on that and say, oh, there's no, there's no reason for Corral draw. 533 00:23:24,210 --> 00:23:26,250 You can do it all in Illustrator is fine, but when. 534 00:23:27,465 --> 00:23:31,034 Burning through a lot of work, a high volume of work every second, 535 00:23:31,034 --> 00:23:33,195 you can save counts and Absolutely. 536 00:23:33,195 --> 00:23:36,435 Uh, back to the whole efficiency, you know, automation conversation. 537 00:23:36,945 --> 00:23:37,215 Yeah. 538 00:23:37,219 --> 00:23:38,354 It makes a big difference. 539 00:23:38,415 --> 00:23:40,844 And corral draw is just, you know, it's, it's better. 540 00:23:40,965 --> 00:23:41,834 It just, it just is. 541 00:23:41,834 --> 00:23:44,415 And a lot of people aren't willing to give corr, draw a fair try, 542 00:23:45,104 --> 00:23:47,774 and they will argue with you to your blue in the face that you're 543 00:23:47,774 --> 00:23:48,135 Brian Saetre: wrong. 544 00:23:48,135 --> 00:23:48,554 But yeah. 545 00:23:48,854 --> 00:23:52,604 Um, I, I probably know, I'm not sure if I know anything better than I know 546 00:23:52,604 --> 00:23:56,354 Adobe Illustrator, like inside and out, like creating automations for 547 00:23:56,354 --> 00:24:00,225 it, like dealing with the objects that it creates in code, all that. 548 00:24:00,435 --> 00:24:04,814 But I, I just know too many very, uh, fervent cor draw supporters 549 00:24:04,995 --> 00:24:06,225 to write it off completely. 550 00:24:06,495 --> 00:24:08,774 And I do use corral draw every single day. 551 00:24:09,465 --> 00:24:10,365 But not like you do. 552 00:24:10,425 --> 00:24:11,865 So for me it's clunkiness. 553 00:24:11,865 --> 00:24:13,095 It's just a little more annoying. 554 00:24:13,245 --> 00:24:13,365 Yeah. 555 00:24:13,425 --> 00:24:13,905 Um, 556 00:24:14,685 --> 00:24:16,725 Michael Riley: the clunkiness will never go away either. 557 00:24:16,725 --> 00:24:17,715 Like it's annoying to me. 558 00:24:17,995 --> 00:24:18,485 Make 559 00:24:18,485 --> 00:24:18,975 Brian Saetre: it clun, don't they? 560 00:24:18,975 --> 00:24:21,585 I I seem to remember older versions being less clunky. 561 00:24:22,095 --> 00:24:22,485 Yeah. 562 00:24:22,725 --> 00:24:22,965 Every 563 00:24:22,965 --> 00:24:24,285 Michael Riley: version's clun than the last. 564 00:24:24,725 --> 00:24:25,205 Mm-hmm. 565 00:24:25,435 --> 00:24:28,455 I think it's not a great piece of software, but what it does, it's 566 00:24:28,455 --> 00:24:30,105 tool set is what's really good in it. 567 00:24:30,105 --> 00:24:36,345 And I mean, if, honestly, if Illustrator had native scaling and native dimensioning 568 00:24:36,345 --> 00:24:40,275 tools built into it, and, and managed multiple page documents better, I 569 00:24:40,275 --> 00:24:41,685 would abandon Carr draw on a heartbeat. 570 00:24:41,685 --> 00:24:42,725 And a lot of people would, but. 571 00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:44,220 It's never gonna happen. 572 00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:48,000 I mean, illustrators focuses the creative side, the drawing side of things. 573 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:48,300 Right. 574 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:49,920 And it's where 575 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,900 Brian Saetre: Carll draw focus, simple dimensioning 576 00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:53,790 plugin actually, cuz it's Yeah. 577 00:24:53,790 --> 00:24:54,870 Lacks what I needed. 578 00:24:56,129 --> 00:24:58,620 Michael Riley: If you came out with like a full suite of tools for Illustrator 579 00:24:58,620 --> 00:25:02,280 that had scaling and dimensioning and, and like real CAD level mm-hmm. 580 00:25:02,610 --> 00:25:05,879 You know, tools, even on a basic level like hat tools, plugin gets 581 00:25:05,879 --> 00:25:07,139 into some pretty in-depth crap. 582 00:25:07,139 --> 00:25:10,710 But I mean, if it was just like a fairly basic plugin, but did, did scaling and 583 00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:14,600 dimensioning really well, you would, it would, you would sell, you would switch. 584 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:15,360 You would switch. 585 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:16,080 I would, yeah. 586 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,250 I, I actually would, I totally would. 587 00:25:17,850 --> 00:25:18,600 Um, I 588 00:25:19,170 --> 00:25:20,040 Bryant Gillespie: That's a challenge. 589 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:21,400 Too many, yeah. 590 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:21,750 Too many 591 00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:23,040 Brian Saetre: business ideas in the head right now. 592 00:25:23,045 --> 00:25:24,080 I, yeah. 593 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:24,280 Yeah. 594 00:25:25,870 --> 00:25:28,650 I'll, I'll insert that one in there for you, but, uh, I don't know 595 00:25:28,650 --> 00:25:29,639 if it's gonna make it to the top. 596 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,580 It's just what you wanna mess with. 597 00:25:32,585 --> 00:25:32,730 Right. 598 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,330 Also, I, I do have experience with cad, but it's like, I might 599 00:25:36,335 --> 00:25:37,230 not be the man for the job. 600 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,780 I might not be the man for the job. 601 00:25:39,780 --> 00:25:40,530 It's mostly Gotcha. 602 00:25:40,620 --> 00:25:40,860 Yeah. 603 00:25:40,860 --> 00:25:41,670 Converting stuff. 604 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:46,620 Two CAD formats and testing them, but not a lot of creating stuff in cad. 605 00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:49,350 I mean, back in high school I took a CAD class, but that 606 00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:50,700 doesn't exactly make me an expert. 607 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:53,250 Bryant Gillespie: That's actually, that's how I got into the industry. 608 00:25:53,250 --> 00:25:55,620 But I, I think like the first que Yeah. 609 00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:55,890 Yeah. 610 00:25:55,890 --> 00:26:01,200 I was in a CAD class and like the, the teacher in the CAD class 611 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,770 had a large format printer and I had just done like the graphic 612 00:26:04,775 --> 00:26:06,720 design class the last semester. 613 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,030 We made it through the CAD book and he was like, oh, like, hey, let's 614 00:26:12,030 --> 00:26:16,050 go cut some vinyl and print some stuff on this large format printer. 615 00:26:16,710 --> 00:26:19,920 Uh, so I actually did more graphic design in the CAD class than I did 616 00:26:19,925 --> 00:26:24,390 in the graphic design class, but I haven't been able to shake it since. 617 00:26:24,450 --> 00:26:26,520 So, interesting fact. 618 00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:30,420 But I, I think like the, the first question I've got for you Brian, is. 619 00:26:31,665 --> 00:26:35,985 How did you transition from like, hey, we're, we're doing a print shop 620 00:26:35,985 --> 00:26:39,045 or a print business, so, you know, signs and graphics and stuff like 621 00:26:39,045 --> 00:26:41,355 that into like, the artwork IQ side? 622 00:26:41,595 --> 00:26:42,105 Well, 623 00:26:42,315 --> 00:26:46,335 Brian Saetre: I went to college, uh, pretty far away, so I couldn't 624 00:26:46,395 --> 00:26:47,385 bring the printers with me. 625 00:26:47,895 --> 00:26:52,395 So all I really had was my, uh, my graphics ability and my marketing ability. 626 00:26:52,785 --> 00:26:57,455 So, since I mostly did the graphics at ipro mm-hmm. 627 00:26:57,535 --> 00:27:00,555 Anyway, like that was my biggest thing that in the marketing, uh, it 628 00:27:00,555 --> 00:27:01,905 wasn't really much of a transition. 629 00:27:01,965 --> 00:27:05,595 I just sort of learned it as I went and really, really pretty 630 00:27:05,595 --> 00:27:09,225 natural, uh, switch when I went to college and started Artwork iq. 631 00:27:09,855 --> 00:27:10,515 Um, gotcha. 632 00:27:10,575 --> 00:27:12,435 It's, is that, is that Yeah. 633 00:27:12,435 --> 00:27:12,735 What you're looking for? 634 00:27:12,825 --> 00:27:13,175 Bryant Gillespie: Ok. 635 00:27:13,415 --> 00:27:13,725 Yeah, definitely. 636 00:27:13,725 --> 00:27:16,575 So you're just like started slinging artwork in like 637 00:27:16,580 --> 00:27:17,625 the dorm room or something? 638 00:27:18,405 --> 00:27:21,975 Brian Saetre: Uh, yeah, it was a couple years after I started, but, um, okay. 639 00:27:22,515 --> 00:27:22,815 Yeah. 640 00:27:22,875 --> 00:27:26,445 I think I just set up a website, uh, some Google AdWord and 641 00:27:26,625 --> 00:27:27,615 printers started showing up. 642 00:27:27,645 --> 00:27:29,265 We were frustrated with just a. 643 00:27:29,665 --> 00:27:32,535 It's really unfortunate our work they've received from customers. 644 00:27:33,195 --> 00:27:33,405 What 645 00:27:33,915 --> 00:27:37,245 Bryant Gillespie: I, I don't know, I hate to date you and us as well, but like, 646 00:27:37,725 --> 00:27:39,945 what's the, like the timeframe on this? 647 00:27:39,945 --> 00:27:41,505 Like, like year wise? 648 00:27:41,805 --> 00:27:46,365 Brian Saetre: I started this in 2003 or four, I think four. 649 00:27:46,370 --> 00:27:46,665 2000, 650 00:27:46,665 --> 00:27:47,065 Bryant Gillespie: 2000. 651 00:27:47,070 --> 00:27:47,445 Three or four. 652 00:27:47,445 --> 00:27:47,685 Okay. 653 00:27:47,775 --> 00:27:51,645 I was just trying to think of like what, like the internet situation looked like. 654 00:27:51,795 --> 00:27:56,475 Um, oh yeah, like transferring files back and forth, all that, all that 655 00:27:56,475 --> 00:27:56,805 Brian Saetre: stuff. 656 00:27:57,105 --> 00:28:00,405 I remember like going between classes and, and looking at my flip phone 657 00:28:00,615 --> 00:28:03,765 and trying to use the internet on this flip phone, which was like a 658 00:28:03,770 --> 00:28:05,115 pretty advanced feature at the time. 659 00:28:05,505 --> 00:28:05,715 Yeah. 660 00:28:05,745 --> 00:28:10,215 Um, and also back then, no one, no one not, not no one, but most 661 00:28:10,245 --> 00:28:14,955 people had no idea what, like, even Photoshop was, uh, people, they 662 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:16,425 didn't know how to use illustrators. 663 00:28:16,425 --> 00:28:18,825 So like, everything was like a logo made in Microsoft paint 664 00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:20,305 by, you know, somebody's. 665 00:28:21,045 --> 00:28:22,845 Brother or cousin or something. 666 00:28:23,115 --> 00:28:26,024 So there were just so many, so many bad pieces of art out there that were 667 00:28:26,024 --> 00:28:28,305 totally useless for just about anything. 668 00:28:28,425 --> 00:28:28,695 Right. 669 00:28:28,695 --> 00:28:31,305 So there was, there was a lot of that kind of work out there and I think 670 00:28:31,310 --> 00:28:35,205 these days most professional designers hopefully are making vector files, but 671 00:28:35,325 --> 00:28:37,425 you still find, he's find ones who don't. 672 00:28:38,385 --> 00:28:39,764 Bryant Gillespie: Mike can speak of that, I'm sure. 673 00:28:40,245 --> 00:28:40,635 Yeah. 674 00:28:40,635 --> 00:28:42,315 He's got that nervous grin on his face. 675 00:28:43,155 --> 00:28:44,175 Brian Saetre: Oh, uh oh. 676 00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:44,955 Did I just call you out? 677 00:28:45,764 --> 00:28:46,245 Oh no, I 678 00:28:46,250 --> 00:28:46,575 Michael Riley: don't. 679 00:28:48,045 --> 00:28:49,245 I'm calling out as clients. 680 00:28:49,995 --> 00:28:52,605 I'm all for punching designers in the throat that do that. 681 00:28:52,605 --> 00:28:56,235 But no, I get, I get logos designed and Photoshop fairly 682 00:28:56,235 --> 00:28:58,725 regularly from like big agencies. 683 00:28:59,055 --> 00:29:03,014 I don't boggles my mind, but you know, you gotta 684 00:29:03,014 --> 00:29:03,465 Brian Saetre: roll with it. 685 00:29:04,365 --> 00:29:04,784 Yeah. 686 00:29:05,925 --> 00:29:05,985 So 687 00:29:06,295 --> 00:29:07,034 Bryant Gillespie: how long, oh, 688 00:29:07,155 --> 00:29:07,545 Brian Saetre: go ahead. 689 00:29:07,935 --> 00:29:10,965 I just, I find I'm seeing that less and less these days, but that might 690 00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:13,305 also be the fact that, you know, we have a lot more competitors. 691 00:29:13,310 --> 00:29:16,575 I think when we started we have like three competitors anybody heard of, and now 692 00:29:16,575 --> 00:29:18,345 there's, I mean, there must be hundreds. 693 00:29:18,945 --> 00:29:19,575 Like maybe a 694 00:29:19,915 --> 00:29:19,995 Bryant Gillespie: thousand. 695 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:20,325 Yeah, yeah. 696 00:29:20,325 --> 00:29:20,595 Yeah. 697 00:29:20,595 --> 00:29:24,375 I still get, so I, I haven't been in a, worked in a sign and print shop 698 00:29:24,375 --> 00:29:29,865 in seven or eight years and I still get like, digitizing requests from 699 00:29:30,524 --> 00:29:33,705 like, folks international, like, Hey, we could digitize your stuff. 700 00:29:33,705 --> 00:29:36,795 And I'm like, I don't even, I don't even do embroidery anymore. 701 00:29:36,825 --> 00:29:41,955 Like I don't do it, you know, but hey, like how soon or how long did 702 00:29:41,955 --> 00:29:44,865 it take before you were overwhelmed and you're like, okay, like I've 703 00:29:44,865 --> 00:29:47,445 gotta, like, how, how does the scale? 704 00:29:47,774 --> 00:29:51,014 Brian Saetre: So I got pretty fast at this work, so I'm trying to remember, 705 00:29:51,195 --> 00:29:56,115 I think I hired my first, hired my first employee maybe two years later. 706 00:29:56,955 --> 00:29:58,545 Uh, that didn't work out super well. 707 00:29:58,545 --> 00:29:59,264 Tried again. 708 00:29:59,325 --> 00:29:59,475 That 709 00:29:59,475 --> 00:29:59,955 Bryant Gillespie: didn't work out. 710 00:29:59,955 --> 00:30:00,195 Super. 711 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:01,920 It turns out I was pretty bad at 712 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,820 Brian Saetre: hiring, but the one after that, this is a 713 00:30:05,820 --> 00:30:07,620 Bryant Gillespie: sign guy, Mike, like he, he, 714 00:30:07,750 --> 00:30:09,060 Brian Saetre: is this a common story and 715 00:30:09,930 --> 00:30:10,200 Michael Riley: Yeah. 716 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,480 You, you're a, you're a sign maker through and through. 717 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:13,530 You just don't know it yet. 718 00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:14,550 Brian Saetre: Just, yeah. 719 00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:15,990 I just need to start making more signs. 720 00:30:18,630 --> 00:30:21,810 But I, the next, the next employee I hired, he's still with me. 721 00:30:21,810 --> 00:30:25,500 So he is, been with the company for 14, 15 years or something. 722 00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:26,700 Um, how many 723 00:30:27,020 --> 00:30:27,810 Michael Riley: employees total do you have now? 724 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,990 Brian Saetre: So I have four. 725 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:31,650 Okay. 726 00:30:31,740 --> 00:30:34,650 Now, we had a few more in the past, but the pandemic was a little hard 727 00:30:34,650 --> 00:30:37,290 on our business, but that was, yeah. 728 00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:39,540 So things are, things are kind of getting back up to speed 729 00:30:39,545 --> 00:30:41,650 now, so they're all much more so 730 00:30:41,650 --> 00:30:45,660 Bryant Gillespie: like how many pieces of, how many pieces of like art do you 731 00:30:45,660 --> 00:30:47,820 guys like process on a, like a single day? 732 00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:52,710 Um, trying to get like an idea of like the scale, like I, I imagine it's quite a bit. 733 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:54,850 Brian Saetre: So at our peak we were doing. 734 00:30:55,815 --> 00:30:57,885 Something like 80 a day, I would say. 735 00:30:58,185 --> 00:30:58,605 Wow. 736 00:30:59,235 --> 00:31:02,175 Uh, these days it's, it's much more complex stuff. 737 00:31:02,205 --> 00:31:06,735 Like one of our big projects we're working on now is digitizing all of the, the 738 00:31:06,735 --> 00:31:11,475 blueprints into data that can be used in, uh, Microsoft business analytics software. 739 00:31:11,865 --> 00:31:15,465 So each of those projects takes like hours and we have like, how 740 00:31:15,465 --> 00:31:16,485 many do we have in the queue? 741 00:31:16,695 --> 00:31:17,115 I dunno. 742 00:31:17,505 --> 00:31:20,925 Maybe 250 more facilities to do or something. 743 00:31:21,375 --> 00:31:27,045 So on a daily basis, we might only do like 30, maybe on a good day, 40 projects now. 744 00:31:27,285 --> 00:31:28,875 But they tend to be much more complicated. 745 00:31:29,145 --> 00:31:31,305 Like some of them are used for manufacturing. 746 00:31:31,785 --> 00:31:36,465 So we work with, uh, one of the major, uh, sports equipment makers in the 747 00:31:36,465 --> 00:31:37,755 country and they'll customize them. 748 00:31:37,815 --> 00:31:41,955 So if you ever go find yourself lucky enough to be in like a major nfl, 749 00:31:42,495 --> 00:31:47,295 um, teams, gyms, or, uh, like a major colleges, gyms, probably we had a hand in. 750 00:31:47,685 --> 00:31:51,315 Helping them decorate the, uh, the weights and cut the logos and need 751 00:31:51,315 --> 00:31:52,305 equipment and stuff like that. 752 00:31:52,845 --> 00:31:53,205 That's cool. 753 00:31:53,385 --> 00:31:53,925 That's really cool. 754 00:31:54,285 --> 00:31:58,755 So some of that is kind of for, you know, uh, it is overlaps with the 755 00:31:58,755 --> 00:32:01,905 signage stuff cause there's like metal fabrication involved, which is 756 00:32:01,910 --> 00:32:03,285 sometimes the signage thing as well. 757 00:32:03,465 --> 00:32:04,665 Yeah, definitely. 758 00:32:05,055 --> 00:32:06,585 Bryant Gillespie: Mike, you got any questions at this point? 759 00:32:06,825 --> 00:32:07,905 Michael Riley: I'm trying to think of questions. 760 00:32:07,905 --> 00:32:10,815 Yeah, I'm trying to think of how this ties into automation and how, but like 761 00:32:10,815 --> 00:32:13,515 I said, it's not really my area of expertise, so I'm not sure what questions. 762 00:32:13,515 --> 00:32:18,975 Bryant Gillespie: Well, so, hey, like, here's what I think is interesting of 763 00:32:18,975 --> 00:32:23,475 like the, and I, and I want to hear like Brian, like, okay, like what are 764 00:32:23,475 --> 00:32:25,275 your tips for like automating this? 765 00:32:25,275 --> 00:32:29,475 But like the thing that we were talking about before you jumped on is this 766 00:32:29,475 --> 00:32:35,175 intersection of like, like producing signs and graphics at the end of the day. 767 00:32:36,195 --> 00:32:39,585 It's an exercise in like constrained creativity almost. 768 00:32:39,585 --> 00:32:43,665 Like, yes, we wanna be creative and, and produce awesome stuff, but there's like 769 00:32:43,665 --> 00:32:48,975 a, a fixed number, uh, a fixed limit of time that we can spend on any one project. 770 00:32:49,425 --> 00:32:49,514 Mm-hmm. 771 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,675 So like, how, how does creativity and efficiency, like, 772 00:32:54,675 --> 00:32:55,725 how do those come together? 773 00:32:55,754 --> 00:33:00,345 Because I, for the life of me when I was a designer and I'm like a recovering 774 00:33:00,345 --> 00:33:02,145 designer is what I like to call myself. 775 00:33:02,804 --> 00:33:02,985 Yeah. 776 00:33:03,105 --> 00:33:07,034 Like, I was never, I could never be like super creative and super efficient. 777 00:33:07,274 --> 00:33:09,345 It was like, it was usually like one or the other like, 778 00:33:09,345 --> 00:33:10,695 Hey, you need a logo today? 779 00:33:10,695 --> 00:33:15,254 I can, I could slap you together something that's gonna look okay. 780 00:33:15,764 --> 00:33:20,415 It'll be professional looking, but it's not gonna be like great at all. 781 00:33:20,625 --> 00:33:20,774 Michael Riley: Yeah. 782 00:33:20,774 --> 00:33:23,985 That's a, that's a good question because, you know, there's that, that old kind 783 00:33:23,985 --> 00:33:27,254 of saying in the sign industry, you, you have, you have a, you can have a good 784 00:33:27,260 --> 00:33:29,205 fast or cheap, but you can only pick two. 785 00:33:29,205 --> 00:33:29,294 Mm-hmm. 786 00:33:29,564 --> 00:33:31,274 You know, so I want to. 787 00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:33,659 I want it fast and cheap, but it won't be good. 788 00:33:33,659 --> 00:33:35,850 Or I want it good and fast, but it won't be cheap. 789 00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:40,950 That is kind of, it's a constant struggle that we, we face as designers is, is how 790 00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:45,690 do we, how do we bridge that and, and provide the client with, with good, fast 791 00:33:45,695 --> 00:33:48,060 and cheap, cheap is the terrible word. 792 00:33:48,060 --> 00:33:48,330 I guess. 793 00:33:48,335 --> 00:33:49,800 Cost efficient, I guess I should say. 794 00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:53,970 Brian Saetre: Well, I, we have the same saying in the, uh, the coding industry. 795 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,070 Software development exactly the same. 796 00:33:56,250 --> 00:33:56,490 Yeah. 797 00:33:56,490 --> 00:33:57,629 Uh, concept supply there. 798 00:33:57,930 --> 00:34:03,780 So with logo, so with, with design, like where it's mostly you being creative 799 00:34:04,050 --> 00:34:09,610 and thinking and playing around the, the efficiency really comes from, mostly 800 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,400 comes from like the export process. 801 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,239 So if you need the logo and a whole bunch of different formats with or without 802 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,350 backgrounds, uh, after you make a tweak, if you want everything to be edited, 803 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,050 like all the different versions you've created, like maybe the black and white 804 00:34:22,050 --> 00:34:24,900 version or the bug or whatever to be edited, to go along with the main logo, 805 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:26,520 you can automate that sort of stuff. 806 00:34:27,254 --> 00:34:30,614 So I find that like adding structure to the creative process can be 807 00:34:30,614 --> 00:34:33,764 handy, but I'm not a creative myself, so I'm mostly working with 808 00:34:33,764 --> 00:34:35,444 other creatives doing this work. 809 00:34:35,924 --> 00:34:38,145 And um, and 810 00:34:38,145 --> 00:34:40,844 Bryant Gillespie: I think that's why this is very interesting to me is like, 811 00:34:41,294 --> 00:34:46,574 like you have built a set of tools and a company around enabling other 812 00:34:46,605 --> 00:34:49,424 like designers to be more efficient. 813 00:34:49,754 --> 00:34:49,844 Mm-hmm. 814 00:34:50,254 --> 00:34:54,734 So like you, you, you, uh, you've got like the mike is the designer. 815 00:34:55,304 --> 00:34:58,875 You've got, you're the guy who's supporting the designers. 816 00:34:59,265 --> 00:35:02,865 So it's like two different takes on the, on the similar topic. 817 00:35:03,345 --> 00:35:06,734 I think that's, that's, that would be interesting for me to, to 818 00:35:06,734 --> 00:35:08,294 hear you both kind of expand on. 819 00:35:09,285 --> 00:35:12,975 Brian Saetre: So when you're designing for signage or designing for print, a 820 00:35:12,975 --> 00:35:19,064 lot of times the design part itself is, it's, it, it does tend to be a little, 821 00:35:19,069 --> 00:35:22,365 a little harder to automate because, um, you're not following the same 822 00:35:22,365 --> 00:35:24,464 steps every time for occurring process. 823 00:35:24,975 --> 00:35:28,755 But the, um, the finishing and the, the starting points are much easier 824 00:35:28,755 --> 00:35:31,905 to automate because, you know, you automatically pull from a template, you 825 00:35:31,905 --> 00:35:33,645 pull in your customer's information. 826 00:35:34,215 --> 00:35:38,445 Uh, for example, we, uh, work with a clothing company that's using, uh, task 827 00:35:38,445 --> 00:35:43,215 OS right now to pull templates and then create variations for like, I think 828 00:35:43,215 --> 00:35:48,405 more than 200 NCAA teams, uh, based on data they have stored in a, like a 829 00:35:48,765 --> 00:35:50,265 database spreadsheet app called Airtable. 830 00:35:50,685 --> 00:35:54,735 So familiar with the design happens, design of the templates happens upfront. 831 00:35:55,395 --> 00:35:58,905 Uh, and then it's, it's set up in tune, so it can be used with the software 832 00:35:59,295 --> 00:36:00,585 and then the automations happen. 833 00:36:01,065 --> 00:36:04,695 And then at the end of the process of creating all the different, uh, 834 00:36:04,725 --> 00:36:09,405 variations, the, the automations then help with things like putting the images 835 00:36:09,405 --> 00:36:14,325 on t-shirts and uh, getting it ready for showing to a licensing department. 836 00:36:14,355 --> 00:36:17,925 And then, Also actually submitting it to the licensing department and 837 00:36:17,925 --> 00:36:23,325 keeping track of whether they say yes or no and, uh, uploading images, uh, 838 00:36:23,355 --> 00:36:27,105 for a website for like to Shopify or some other other system like that. 839 00:36:27,705 --> 00:36:30,975 Uh, so that's kind of where the, that's kind of where the automation tends 840 00:36:30,975 --> 00:36:33,825 to come in, although that's changing a little bit now that we're able to 841 00:36:33,825 --> 00:36:36,675 integrate with, uh, software like Dolly. 842 00:36:37,635 --> 00:36:42,295 Um, if you're familiar with open AI's, uh, image generation software, um, yeah. 843 00:36:42,645 --> 00:36:45,165 Bryant Gillespie: I've been also looking at, uh, mid Journey is 844 00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:46,305 the other one that I've looked at. 845 00:36:46,305 --> 00:36:48,945 I spit out a couple renders for Mike from it. 846 00:36:49,355 --> 00:36:49,875 Mid, mid 847 00:36:49,875 --> 00:36:50,955 Brian Saetre: journey is amazing. 848 00:36:50,955 --> 00:36:52,575 It creates really, really beautiful artwork. 849 00:36:53,505 --> 00:36:53,655 Yeah. 850 00:36:53,685 --> 00:36:57,405 Um, like the kinda artwork you would've five years ago paid a designer. 851 00:36:58,155 --> 00:37:02,415 $700 or something to do, and it happens in like two minutes. 852 00:37:02,535 --> 00:37:03,045 It's crazy. 853 00:37:03,050 --> 00:37:03,505 Yeah. 854 00:37:03,765 --> 00:37:04,035 Yeah. 855 00:37:04,155 --> 00:37:07,995 Bryant Gillespie: Uh, let's, let's save that one for, I think that could be like 856 00:37:08,185 --> 00:37:14,475 a, a, a good, uh, closer there, but like, Mike, like, is, does this track for you? 857 00:37:14,475 --> 00:37:16,965 Like, where are you, where do you spend your time? 858 00:37:16,975 --> 00:37:20,025 Like, do you sit down, you're designing a sign, like where 859 00:37:20,025 --> 00:37:21,165 is most of your time spent? 860 00:37:21,615 --> 00:37:22,035 Yeah, 861 00:37:22,035 --> 00:37:24,375 Michael Riley: no, it definitely does like a, a, a really good 862 00:37:24,375 --> 00:37:26,505 example that I could, I could see. 863 00:37:27,330 --> 00:37:32,490 This applying to is when I do like large interior sign packages, like ADA signs 864 00:37:32,490 --> 00:37:33,960 with braille and everything on 'em. 865 00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:38,370 You know, if you have a large office building, say with 200 rooms, the 866 00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:42,120 Americans with Disabilities Act says that every single door in that building 867 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,040 must have a a sign on it, right? 868 00:37:44,045 --> 00:37:44,440 Mm-hmm. 869 00:37:44,670 --> 00:37:47,610 So when you're designing one of these large interior sign packages, you've got 870 00:37:47,940 --> 00:37:51,480 say, six or eight different sign types, restroom signs, and general room signs, 871 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:52,860 conference rooms, office right there. 872 00:37:53,550 --> 00:37:56,850 So the creative process in that is designing how each one of 873 00:37:56,850 --> 00:37:58,230 those signs looks and feels. 874 00:37:58,620 --> 00:38:01,260 And that, I don't know that there's any way to automate that process, right? 875 00:38:01,260 --> 00:38:02,970 Like it's, it's just, it's design. 876 00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:04,620 But yeah, I mean, 877 00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:07,740 Brian Saetre: you know, with this artificial intelligence, we're not, 878 00:38:07,740 --> 00:38:11,580 it's not there yet, but I probably look out down the road pretty soon actually. 879 00:38:12,930 --> 00:38:15,330 Uh, but you still have to know how to use the software, which is 880 00:38:15,330 --> 00:38:16,890 not particularly straightforward. 881 00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:18,000 Michael Riley: Yeah. 882 00:38:18,005 --> 00:38:18,220 Yeah. 883 00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:18,750 I don't know. 884 00:38:18,750 --> 00:38:22,710 I'm skeptical that that's ever fully gonna take away what, especially 885 00:38:22,710 --> 00:38:26,280 with, with, with design like that, where there's a lot of restrictions. 886 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,710 I mean, like designing an ADA sign is different than designing like 887 00:38:28,715 --> 00:38:31,380 a big pile on sign up by the road because there's a lot of guardrails 888 00:38:31,385 --> 00:38:35,430 in place, uh, with the ADA code that says this, you know, it's gotta have, 889 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,100 you know, this type of background, it's gotta be this finish, there's 890 00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:39,540 gotta be this percentage of contrast. 891 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,010 There's a lot of specific rules that, and then it hasn't look good as well, which is 892 00:38:44,010 --> 00:38:45,750 where I don't, you know, I mean, AI can. 893 00:38:47,325 --> 00:38:50,835 You know, achieve something that complies with the rules, but whether 894 00:38:50,835 --> 00:38:55,335 or not it's gonna look good, i, I question if it'll at least get there 895 00:38:56,115 --> 00:38:56,655 Brian Saetre: soon. 896 00:38:57,165 --> 00:39:00,675 You won't do it with like, off the shelf, like going in the mid journey 897 00:39:00,675 --> 00:39:02,565 and say, Hey, make me an ADA compliant. 898 00:39:02,565 --> 00:39:03,105 Right, right. 899 00:39:03,255 --> 00:39:04,215 Signage package. 900 00:39:04,215 --> 00:39:05,835 That's not happening now. 901 00:39:06,165 --> 00:39:10,125 However, you could train a model to do that. 902 00:39:10,275 --> 00:39:14,775 Um, so if, if you are a little deeper into the tech, like I'm pretty sure if 903 00:39:14,775 --> 00:39:21,045 you gave me a number of months, I could probably make that more or less happen. 904 00:39:21,435 --> 00:39:21,975 The 905 00:39:22,995 --> 00:39:24,465 Bryant Gillespie: he's, he's too much like me, Mike. 906 00:39:25,785 --> 00:39:27,555 Like, gimme two weeks, I'll, I'll build it. 907 00:39:27,585 --> 00:39:28,815 Oh, not, not to, I was just thinking out, 908 00:39:28,815 --> 00:39:29,235 Michael Riley: but, yeah. 909 00:39:29,355 --> 00:39:29,515 Yeah. 910 00:39:30,075 --> 00:39:34,455 But like, so, so designing the individual signs, like what they look 911 00:39:34,455 --> 00:39:37,425 like is the creative process, but then once that's approved by the client, 912 00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:39,885 then you've gotta go in and you've gotta lay out each individual sign. 913 00:39:40,215 --> 00:39:40,845 So in a, in a. 914 00:39:41,565 --> 00:39:44,555 In a building, a large office building, you could have say, 5, 6, 915 00:39:44,555 --> 00:39:50,024 700 total signs, even though there's only, you know, six or eight designs. 916 00:39:50,294 --> 00:39:52,365 Then you gotta apply that to each different location in the 917 00:39:52,370 --> 00:39:53,625 building, and that's where. 918 00:39:54,465 --> 00:39:58,185 You know, automation would be super handy if, if I could just upload the 919 00:39:58,185 --> 00:40:02,685 spreadsheet list of every sign type and the sign message and, and automate that 920 00:40:02,685 --> 00:40:06,945 process of laying out each individual message or each layout for each sign. 921 00:40:07,515 --> 00:40:10,005 You know, that's the final step in the process of that. 922 00:40:10,005 --> 00:40:13,005 And it, doing that takes twice as long as the creative does. 923 00:40:13,365 --> 00:40:13,545 Yeah. 924 00:40:13,545 --> 00:40:18,135 And it's, you know, uh, if, if I'm just designing the look and feel of the sign 925 00:40:18,135 --> 00:40:22,965 family, that can be anywhere from five to, you know, 30, 40 hours to do that. 926 00:40:23,325 --> 00:40:26,325 But then to expand that, depending on the size of the, the, the full, 927 00:40:26,385 --> 00:40:29,385 the full scope of the project to, to actually do all the individual message 928 00:40:29,385 --> 00:40:34,215 layouts, then could add another 20, 30, 40 hours to the project to do that. 929 00:40:34,215 --> 00:40:35,535 Cuz it's, it's all manual. 930 00:40:35,535 --> 00:40:37,965 I mean, I've got a copy and paste and type in what the next one is. 931 00:40:37,965 --> 00:40:42,275 And, and it's all, you know, I think in core draw there's a way you can kind of 932 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,465 automate that a little bit by doing a data merge with a spreadsheet, but it's. 933 00:40:46,095 --> 00:40:48,835 It's carll draw and it's not, it's not that good. 934 00:40:48,839 --> 00:40:49,464 And is it, 935 00:40:49,555 --> 00:40:51,895 Bryant Gillespie: is it like, is it something you get straight template, 936 00:40:51,895 --> 00:40:57,055 Mike, or is it like, okay, like here's the, the restroom sign. 937 00:40:57,294 --> 00:41:00,835 Okay, this, this one has got like an extra bit of copy on it and 938 00:41:01,165 --> 00:41:02,665 like I gotta manually tweak that? 939 00:41:03,205 --> 00:41:06,234 Michael Riley: Yeah, having to manually tweak them is kind of rare. 940 00:41:06,234 --> 00:41:08,544 I mean, usually in every sign package there's a few that you've 941 00:41:08,544 --> 00:41:12,714 gotta, you know, kind of manually mess with a little bit, but, but 98% 942 00:41:12,714 --> 00:41:15,294 of them are pretty straightforward and, and, and could be templated. 943 00:41:15,805 --> 00:41:16,944 Um, for sure. 944 00:41:17,325 --> 00:41:20,904 And, and yeah, it's a, you know, it's a huge, it's a huge time suck 945 00:41:20,904 --> 00:41:24,924 to, to do that part of it because it's just, it's, it's just busy work. 946 00:41:24,924 --> 00:41:26,245 There's no creativity to it at all. 947 00:41:26,245 --> 00:41:29,935 It's just plugging in data and copying and pasting and, and automating 948 00:41:29,935 --> 00:41:34,285 something like that would, would save an insane amount of time for, for me. 949 00:41:34,375 --> 00:41:36,475 I mean, that's, that's the first example that comes to my mind. 950 00:41:36,475 --> 00:41:38,785 But there's a, there's a lot of things like that and what I do that 951 00:41:39,535 --> 00:41:42,625 Brian Saetre: could potentially be, that's a very, a very good example because, 952 00:41:43,170 --> 00:41:46,920 You know, no artist is gonna be mad that you're taking that work away from them. 953 00:41:47,549 --> 00:41:50,610 You know, when you automate it, you just, you just sit there and watch 954 00:41:50,610 --> 00:41:53,220 it happen on your screen, depending on how you wanted to set it up, 955 00:41:53,220 --> 00:41:56,070 using one of our systems or even some other systems that are available. 956 00:41:56,250 --> 00:41:59,070 Most other systems that I know about will just kind of go through and 957 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,650 just plop them all out into a folder. 958 00:42:01,650 --> 00:42:01,740 Mm-hmm. 959 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,960 And then you can go through and edit them if you feel like it. 960 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,450 Our system will allow you to like edit them as they're being 961 00:42:06,450 --> 00:42:07,680 generated if you would like to. 962 00:42:08,370 --> 00:42:12,509 Uh, so if there's any tweaks you need to make in this case, it may just be almost 963 00:42:12,509 --> 00:42:14,060 completely automatable and you could kind. 964 00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:18,660 Just dump the output into a folder and do quality assurance on 'em real quick. 965 00:42:19,050 --> 00:42:19,470 Now the trick 966 00:42:19,470 --> 00:42:22,230 Michael Riley: is it has to be compiled into like a full drawing set for approval. 967 00:42:22,235 --> 00:42:25,380 Cause once, once they approve the, the design of the signs, then they've 968 00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:26,880 gotta go through and they wanna see. 969 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,980 And then sometimes it can be a hundred plus page document of 970 00:42:28,980 --> 00:42:30,240 every one of these things laid out. 971 00:42:30,390 --> 00:42:30,750 Oh, okay. 972 00:42:30,755 --> 00:42:33,690 You know, and, and there'll be, you know, 6, 8, 10, however many you 973 00:42:33,695 --> 00:42:37,260 can fit on a page, sometimes 20 on a page with, with each individual. 974 00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:40,950 And, and that's really like, you know, the time consuming part, well, 975 00:42:40,955 --> 00:42:42,030 part of the time consuming part. 976 00:42:42,030 --> 00:42:44,820 And then exporting those is, is individual production ready files. 977 00:42:44,820 --> 00:42:49,710 Obviously on top of that becomes, uh, you know, another headache and hurdle. 978 00:42:49,710 --> 00:42:52,830 But just creating that, it's basically a proof Creating that proof document that 979 00:42:52,830 --> 00:42:58,530 has every, every sign message laid out to scale, uh, is, yeah, it's, it sucks. 980 00:42:58,535 --> 00:42:58,840 That's, 981 00:42:59,130 --> 00:43:00,150 Brian Saetre: that's pretty straightforward. 982 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,770 If you wouldn't mind, uh, the artwork, uh, going into Adobe Illustrator real 983 00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:06,300 quick and then popping back into draw. 984 00:43:07,590 --> 00:43:08,880 Um, I can make that work. 985 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,450 That would be, that would be pretty, yeah, that would be pretty straightforward. 986 00:43:12,570 --> 00:43:13,400 Uh, that's a. 987 00:43:14,235 --> 00:43:17,595 Right now that's pretty typical of most of the work we're doing with this plugin. 988 00:43:17,985 --> 00:43:18,435 Interesting. 989 00:43:19,725 --> 00:43:22,065 Michael Riley: Yeah, that kinda automation, I mean, that's, that's kinda 990 00:43:22,065 --> 00:43:28,875 automation that I, I think would free up designers to be much more creative. 991 00:43:28,875 --> 00:43:31,725 I mean, as designers, we're always racing the clock and we're trying to split the 992 00:43:31,730 --> 00:43:35,685 difference between being creative and being efficient and, and, and really 993 00:43:35,685 --> 00:43:40,875 like the only, when we're talking about, you know, true creativity in design 994 00:43:40,875 --> 00:43:44,384 and, and not like, you know, busy work and, and, and production design, but 995 00:43:44,384 --> 00:43:47,685 like, you know, actually trying to be creative and designing something, the 996 00:43:47,685 --> 00:43:50,565 sacrifice there is you, you've gotta, you've gotta think down the line and, 997 00:43:50,565 --> 00:43:53,445 and say, okay, when I get done with this, and I've gotta do this, this, 998 00:43:53,445 --> 00:43:56,384 and this, so I've gotta really hurry on the creative and maybe cut corners. 999 00:43:56,384 --> 00:43:58,605 Or maybe, you know, the quality there is sacrifice. 1000 00:43:58,605 --> 00:44:01,425 So things that, that remove. 1001 00:44:02,625 --> 00:44:05,895 You know, that those other tasks from a designer's plate, so the designer is freed 1002 00:44:05,895 --> 00:44:08,115 up to just focus solely on the creativity. 1003 00:44:08,674 --> 00:44:10,605 I, I, I think would, would be huge. 1004 00:44:10,605 --> 00:44:13,214 Not just from a time thing, but also from a time standpoint, but also 1005 00:44:13,214 --> 00:44:16,274 from quality of design standpoint. 1006 00:44:16,274 --> 00:44:18,044 The more time a designer has, the 1007 00:44:18,044 --> 00:44:19,214 Brian Saetre: better the design's gonna be. 1008 00:44:19,904 --> 00:44:22,694 If you finish creating all the variations and then they decide, 1009 00:44:22,694 --> 00:44:24,165 oh wait, oops, sorry, we forgot. 1010 00:44:24,435 --> 00:44:26,924 We need a reg, a registered marker trademark in this corner, or 1011 00:44:26,930 --> 00:44:28,995 we need something else tweaked. 1012 00:44:29,805 --> 00:44:31,125 You probably had that happen, right? 1013 00:44:31,365 --> 00:44:32,145 Oh, I, 1014 00:44:34,935 --> 00:44:35,984 Michael Riley: uh, that's a sore subject. 1015 00:44:36,734 --> 00:44:37,154 Yeah. 1016 00:44:37,214 --> 00:44:38,745 Well, no, I'm dealing with it right now. 1017 00:44:38,745 --> 00:44:42,705 I like a package that has like, like 2000 different units in it, and, 1018 00:44:42,705 --> 00:44:43,875 and like, everything's laid out. 1019 00:44:43,875 --> 00:44:45,915 Everything's done and ready to go to production. 1020 00:44:45,915 --> 00:44:49,424 Like, oh yeah, we, we need to make this one minor. 1021 00:44:49,424 --> 00:44:52,484 And, and like in the customer's mind, it's like a really simple tweak, right? 1022 00:44:52,995 --> 00:44:54,855 Like there's nothing to it at all to their mind. 1023 00:44:54,855 --> 00:44:57,615 But when you have to go back and apply that tweak to every 1024 00:44:57,615 --> 00:44:58,995 one of those 2000 signs, 1025 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:01,650 Brian Saetre: I, that's it. 1026 00:45:01,799 --> 00:45:02,850 It's tons of time. 1027 00:45:02,850 --> 00:45:02,940 What? 1028 00:45:03,250 --> 00:45:05,940 It's bad when you have to just click a button to say rebuild. 1029 00:45:06,270 --> 00:45:06,509 Right. 1030 00:45:06,509 --> 00:45:07,440 And then it rebuilds it. 1031 00:45:07,650 --> 00:45:09,960 Maybe, maybe it takes 15 minutes or something, but Yeah. 1032 00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:11,049 Michael Riley: But yeah. 1033 00:45:11,055 --> 00:45:11,310 Yeah. 1034 00:45:11,310 --> 00:45:14,730 I mean, I'm, I'm looking at a week's worth of work to do it manually. 1035 00:45:14,730 --> 00:45:14,970 Yeah. 1036 00:45:15,549 --> 00:45:18,270 And that's, you know, and it's, it's billable time for me. 1037 00:45:18,270 --> 00:45:21,870 So on one hand it's like, well, cool, I get to charge you more and, and 1038 00:45:21,870 --> 00:45:23,100 I'll take your money all day long. 1039 00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:28,230 But on the other hand, it's like, that really, really tanks your schedule 1040 00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:32,759 as well, and it really spreads you thin as a designer for something 1041 00:45:32,759 --> 00:45:34,049 that it just doesn't move the needle. 1042 00:45:34,290 --> 00:45:34,920 Right, exactly. 1043 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:35,250 Yeah. 1044 00:45:35,250 --> 00:45:35,610 Yeah. 1045 00:45:35,610 --> 00:45:38,549 Like, yeah, like it's nice to have that billable time that 1046 00:45:38,549 --> 00:45:39,970 you're, you're gonna get, but. 1047 00:45:40,695 --> 00:45:43,545 But in the grand scheme of things, it's more important to be more 1048 00:45:43,545 --> 00:45:46,155 efficient and get more work out the door than it is just keep grabbing 1049 00:45:46,155 --> 00:45:47,445 hours outta the air cuz they're 1050 00:45:47,445 --> 00:45:47,805 Bryant Gillespie: there. 1051 00:45:47,925 --> 00:45:48,225 Yeah. 1052 00:45:48,405 --> 00:45:51,465 Um, I, I think where I, I, one of the things that I'm really curious about 1053 00:45:51,465 --> 00:45:56,385 is like, when do you reach for the automation versus just like, knuckling 1054 00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:57,885 under and like getting it done? 1055 00:45:57,885 --> 00:45:58,245 Right. 1056 00:45:58,245 --> 00:46:02,865 Because I, I know, like I, I dabble in development. 1057 00:46:02,985 --> 00:46:05,925 I'll, let's say that Mike, I, that's probably pretty fair. 1058 00:46:05,925 --> 00:46:08,115 Mike would say I'm like an actual developer. 1059 00:46:08,535 --> 00:46:10,245 I'm kind of like on the fence. 1060 00:46:10,245 --> 00:46:14,055 Like if somebody was like, Hey, I want to pay you to develop this, I 1061 00:46:14,060 --> 00:46:17,325 would be like, eh, I don't, I don't, I'm not comfortable with that. 1062 00:46:18,015 --> 00:46:21,045 But if it's something I've tackled on my own, yeah, great. 1063 00:46:21,345 --> 00:46:27,915 But sometimes like I, like I put on that lazy developer like hat and I'm 1064 00:46:27,915 --> 00:46:29,655 like, oh, like I could automate this. 1065 00:46:29,655 --> 00:46:32,115 Really, it wouldn't take too long to automate and then I 1066 00:46:32,115 --> 00:46:33,195 wouldn't have to do it again. 1067 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,080 But there's also this balance of like, I'm just overthinking it, like it's 1068 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,620 gonna take me like 20 minutes to do this and then I probably won't have 1069 00:46:40,620 --> 00:46:42,330 to do it again for like six months. 1070 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:42,990 Brian Saetre: Yeah. 1071 00:46:43,350 --> 00:46:43,680 Yeah. 1072 00:46:43,685 --> 00:46:47,460 So if you find yourself doing the same thing again and again, that's when you 1073 00:46:47,460 --> 00:46:48,690 wanna take a look at automating it. 1074 00:46:49,049 --> 00:46:51,629 In the meantime, it might be worth writing some notes, like a, like a 1075 00:46:51,629 --> 00:46:54,540 skeleton of a standard operating procedure if you think it might come up again. 1076 00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:01,740 Um, but if it's just a one-time thing, uh, we will automate projects like that, like 1077 00:47:01,745 --> 00:47:04,710 that I was telling you about that, that blueprint product for the data analytics 1078 00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:10,259 software, uh, just because there's hundreds of them and, uh, the automations 1079 00:47:10,265 --> 00:47:14,670 are pretty easy to do and doing them without the automations is you're almost 1080 00:47:14,670 --> 00:47:15,750 always gonna screw it up a little bit. 1081 00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:17,879 Um, and it takes a while. 1082 00:47:17,879 --> 00:47:21,420 So, um, there's kinda a cost benefit analysis there, but if it's gonna take you 1083 00:47:21,420 --> 00:47:23,759 20 minutes to do it manually and you don't think it's something you're gonna have to 1084 00:47:23,759 --> 00:47:28,410 do again, then I, I wouldn't, even if it take me 20 minutes to do the automation, 1085 00:47:28,415 --> 00:47:29,520 I probably wouldn't usually bother. 1086 00:47:30,225 --> 00:47:31,395 I would just do it manually. 1087 00:47:31,515 --> 00:47:31,785 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 1088 00:47:32,115 --> 00:47:35,325 Like it's really what's been your experience in the past, like as you're 1089 00:47:35,325 --> 00:47:40,814 growing like the artwork IQ side of like, you know, when do we develop 1090 00:47:40,819 --> 00:47:46,095 the s o p and then like, can you like, speak to like a specific example 1091 00:47:46,095 --> 00:47:50,924 beyond like this blueprint project of like, okay, hey we, we noticed we were 1092 00:47:50,924 --> 00:47:53,865 getting X, Y, and Z every single week. 1093 00:47:53,865 --> 00:47:58,395 And then we said, okay, here's what the s o P looks like, blah, blah, blah. 1094 00:47:58,424 --> 00:48:00,734 Like, okay, now we need to do an automation for this. 1095 00:48:00,975 --> 00:48:01,305 Yeah. 1096 00:48:01,334 --> 00:48:02,714 Brian Saetre: Let me see if I can think of a good example. 1097 00:48:03,435 --> 00:48:04,904 So there's one I've been doing for a while. 1098 00:48:05,265 --> 00:48:10,395 Uh, it was, I've had this customer, I don't know, like 15 years or something. 1099 00:48:10,395 --> 00:48:14,504 So I've been doing this process for, you know, like quite, quite a long 1100 00:48:14,504 --> 00:48:18,555 time and I've gotten really, really, really good at it, really fast. 1101 00:48:18,555 --> 00:48:21,615 Don't have to think, uh, but it still takes about 45 minutes of my time. 1102 00:48:22,245 --> 00:48:25,515 And since I'm trying to build another company, uh, it's, it's. 1103 00:48:26,235 --> 00:48:27,255 It's a little distracting. 1104 00:48:27,260 --> 00:48:31,125 So recently we started building that into an s o p only to realize 1105 00:48:31,125 --> 00:48:34,665 that there's like, I don't know, 47 steps or something like that. 1106 00:48:35,655 --> 00:48:37,725 It's just I've been doing it so long, I don't have to think about it 1107 00:48:37,730 --> 00:48:38,025 Bryant Gillespie: anymore. 1108 00:48:38,585 --> 00:48:39,435 Uh, yeah. 1109 00:48:39,915 --> 00:48:40,965 But it really does need to be 1110 00:48:40,965 --> 00:48:42,915 Brian Saetre: something that my employees can do, and it's different 1111 00:48:42,915 --> 00:48:43,875 enough for most of the work. 1112 00:48:43,965 --> 00:48:48,585 Uh, what it is, is, uh, we work with a ceramics manufacturer and, 1113 00:48:48,645 --> 00:48:50,085 uh, they have custom monograms. 1114 00:48:50,115 --> 00:48:52,785 So if somebody, if people get married, they might have their initials 1115 00:48:52,785 --> 00:48:56,205 monogrammed on it, so it's like, like fine China, that sort of thing. 1116 00:48:56,445 --> 00:49:01,395 So we have to lay these monograms out on a layout, um, and then apply a cover 1117 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,285 coat, uh, because the, they have to be then, uh, applied to the, uh, to 1118 00:49:06,285 --> 00:49:07,785 the China and then fired in an oven. 1119 00:49:08,415 --> 00:49:10,935 So it's a sort of a repetitive process, and there's a lot 1120 00:49:10,935 --> 00:49:12,315 of quality control involved. 1121 00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:18,345 We also have to create the monograms in like one of, uh, 24 styles or something. 1122 00:49:18,765 --> 00:49:19,845 So there's like a lot to it. 1123 00:49:19,875 --> 00:49:20,265 Yeah. 1124 00:49:20,650 --> 00:49:20,835 Yeah. 1125 00:49:21,285 --> 00:49:24,495 So, um, so yeah, we've decided it's time to, it's time to go through 1126 00:49:24,495 --> 00:49:25,665 the process of automating that. 1127 00:49:26,130 --> 00:49:28,710 And, uh, we're about halfway done, I would say. 1128 00:49:28,890 --> 00:49:30,480 But right now, right now, it's mostly manual. 1129 00:49:30,540 --> 00:49:35,640 And then what we do usually is we have employees go through the manual process 1130 00:49:35,820 --> 00:49:37,680 first a little bit so they understand it. 1131 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,960 Um, and then we automate the, we dis discover which parts take the most time 1132 00:49:43,140 --> 00:49:47,100 or, uh, cause the most potential for like making errors, making mistakes. 1133 00:49:47,610 --> 00:49:49,050 And then we automate those steps first. 1134 00:49:49,620 --> 00:49:52,470 And what ends up happening is you take a procedure that started as like 1135 00:49:52,470 --> 00:49:57,810 a 40 something step procedure and you like condense it down so that a 1136 00:49:57,810 --> 00:50:03,060 lot of those steps, like become one chunk of code that runs automatically 1137 00:50:03,060 --> 00:50:04,350 that they deploy doesn't have to see. 1138 00:50:04,770 --> 00:50:09,540 So it ends up becoming a much easy, easier thing to teach to, uh, new employees. 1139 00:50:09,570 --> 00:50:12,930 If someone goes on vacation, like if I ever go on vacation, I 1140 00:50:12,930 --> 00:50:15,509 always, in the past, I've always found myself doing that project. 1141 00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:19,920 It's like it takes too long to kind of master it manually. 1142 00:50:20,340 --> 00:50:21,720 That that's kind of a, maybe that's not the. 1143 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,360 It's a little bit of an odd example. 1144 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,190 I guess the, the rule of thumb is like if we have an employee and they, or sorry, 1145 00:50:29,190 --> 00:50:34,440 a customer and they're a printing company who's ordered something of few times, 1146 00:50:35,130 --> 00:50:38,460 uh, we'll do more than just like write down the file format they need and what 1147 00:50:38,460 --> 00:50:43,260 they're doing with it and we'll, we'll go into it and, uh, like export, set up 1148 00:50:43,260 --> 00:50:47,340 exports and, and use templates, uh, to get things a little bit automated there. 1149 00:50:47,340 --> 00:50:50,070 And if it's something that's a little bit out of the ordinary and there's more 1150 00:50:50,070 --> 00:50:54,330 steps involved, then in like a typical, just sort of draw it as a vector, set 1151 00:50:54,330 --> 00:50:59,220 spot colors, save it as EPS eight, or send it if it's more complicated than that. 1152 00:50:59,730 --> 00:51:01,770 If we, you know, if we find ourselves. 1153 00:51:02,174 --> 00:51:05,654 I guess it, honest, honestly, it's when it starts to become annoying. 1154 00:51:05,714 --> 00:51:06,464 That's when we got meeting. 1155 00:51:07,404 --> 00:51:09,855 Bryant Gillespie: That's, that's kind of a rambling answer to your question. 1156 00:51:09,859 --> 00:51:10,245 No, no, no. 1157 00:51:10,250 --> 00:51:11,475 That's, no, that's great. 1158 00:51:11,475 --> 00:51:13,935 Great to like watch you go through it because Yeah, and it 1159 00:51:13,935 --> 00:51:15,285 kinda, to me that's sound to it. 1160 00:51:15,395 --> 00:51:15,884 Yeah. 1161 00:51:16,089 --> 00:51:19,214 I mean, I, yeah, that's, I, I feel like that will track with a 1162 00:51:19,214 --> 00:51:20,714 lot of listeners of like mm-hmm. 1163 00:51:21,794 --> 00:51:25,725 Not just an artwork, but like, Hey, when do we need an s o p for this? 1164 00:51:25,725 --> 00:51:31,290 Or like, is, hey, It's got to the point where like, Hey, I could do 1165 00:51:31,290 --> 00:51:34,800 this faster than anyone, but I, I'm trying to go on vacation, or 1166 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,450 I don't want to do this anymore. 1167 00:51:36,990 --> 00:51:37,620 And yeah. 1168 00:51:37,620 --> 00:51:40,740 Hey, like, like Mike, maybe you could speak to this, like your, 1169 00:51:41,220 --> 00:51:43,440 your design business is exploding. 1170 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,950 You're, you're trying to bring on other designers, like how do you, 1171 00:51:47,370 --> 00:51:52,050 how do you codify what you do for somebody else so that the results, 1172 00:51:52,170 --> 00:51:53,550 like the end result is similar? 1173 00:51:53,910 --> 00:51:56,130 Like what are, what are you doing personally on that front? 1174 00:51:59,670 --> 00:52:01,530 Michael Riley: Oh, nothing. 1175 00:52:02,970 --> 00:52:03,210 No. 1176 00:52:03,210 --> 00:52:07,200 Any, any of my knowledge, any of my designers, like, they've 1177 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,270 gotta know what they're doing when it comes to sign design. 1178 00:52:09,380 --> 00:52:12,270 I, I can't, I can't hold anybody's hand and tell somebody how to design 1179 00:52:12,270 --> 00:52:13,830 a pile on Z or channel letter sign. 1180 00:52:13,830 --> 00:52:18,840 Like, you just, you gotta know, you know, and I'm using, you know, many requests, 1181 00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:21,940 which is an online, you know, kind of project management app that, that. 1182 00:52:22,645 --> 00:52:23,564 It brings everybody together. 1183 00:52:23,924 --> 00:52:26,884 But at the end of the day, I mean, because so much of it's creative, I, 1184 00:52:26,884 --> 00:52:32,084 I, I wouldn't even know where to begin to turn any of that into an s o p. 1185 00:52:32,234 --> 00:52:37,605 Um, yet, it's something that I haven't put any brain power to and probably should. 1186 00:52:37,609 --> 00:52:38,805 So thank you for that. 1187 00:52:40,305 --> 00:52:40,544 Bryant Gillespie: Yep. 1188 00:52:40,814 --> 00:52:41,924 Thanks for calling you out. 1189 00:52:41,930 --> 00:52:43,365 Like Yeah, rough enough. 1190 00:52:43,555 --> 00:52:45,674 I mean, I, I see that all the time, right? 1191 00:52:45,674 --> 00:52:49,725 Like, or, well, I, I won't say I see it all the time, but how many des, how many 1192 00:52:49,725 --> 00:52:54,254 shop owners have we talked to Mike, where it's like, Hey, I want to like, measure 1193 00:52:54,254 --> 00:52:56,384 and get more out of the design department. 1194 00:52:56,685 --> 00:52:59,024 Like how, you know, like production. 1195 00:52:59,055 --> 00:52:59,384 Okay. 1196 00:52:59,384 --> 00:52:59,625 Yeah. 1197 00:52:59,654 --> 00:53:02,055 Like we could go in and measure like, okay, throughput, like, 1198 00:53:02,384 --> 00:53:04,964 Hey, you made a hundred thousand dollars worth of signs this month, 1199 00:53:04,964 --> 00:53:07,634 or you made 50 signs this month. 1200 00:53:08,055 --> 00:53:13,274 But like on design, it, is it being a creative process, but also with 1201 00:53:13,279 --> 00:53:16,575 a production focus, you know, like you still gotta get it out the door. 1202 00:53:17,535 --> 00:53:19,754 Like, what, what are the standards there? 1203 00:53:19,754 --> 00:53:21,105 You know, or like, how do you. 1204 00:53:21,525 --> 00:53:27,345 You not just like, rely on the designer's design ability, you know, 1205 00:53:27,495 --> 00:53:31,995 like, like you gotta be able to produce repeatable results, right? 1206 00:53:32,505 --> 00:53:32,895 Michael Riley: Yeah. 1207 00:53:32,895 --> 00:53:35,595 And I don't, I don't know how that's a, other than, other 1208 00:53:35,595 --> 00:53:40,215 than just like purely talented designers doing what they do best. 1209 00:53:40,215 --> 00:53:43,635 I mean, when I was in the art department of security science, 1210 00:53:43,695 --> 00:53:47,175 um, I would say they probably had the most efficient art department 1211 00:53:47,175 --> 00:53:49,785 that I've, you know, kind of seen. 1212 00:53:50,865 --> 00:53:54,255 And they used a Smartsheet tracking tool that they built to, um, 1213 00:53:54,555 --> 00:53:58,065 you know, to put a few KPIs and metrics on, on what's going on. 1214 00:53:58,395 --> 00:54:02,005 The design director would review every incoming project and she would determine 1215 00:54:02,145 --> 00:54:04,605 a, you know, an estimated amount of time it would take, that'd be put on 1216 00:54:04,755 --> 00:54:08,055 the, the, the Smartsheet, and then the designer would have the track actual time. 1217 00:54:08,055 --> 00:54:14,235 And, you know, there's in, in that data eventually was used to say, 1218 00:54:14,235 --> 00:54:16,575 okay, for these types of signs, they're taking this amount of time, 1219 00:54:16,575 --> 00:54:18,675 so we need to allot this on average. 1220 00:54:18,675 --> 00:54:23,460 And, but, Design is so subjective at the end of the day, especially when 1221 00:54:23,460 --> 00:54:26,490 you're talking about the creative and the design, there's a limit to what 1222 00:54:26,490 --> 00:54:31,050 you can, I don't know, standardize and, and turn into a process with it. 1223 00:54:31,050 --> 00:54:34,230 I think because the, in my opinion, the more you, the more you do that 1224 00:54:35,070 --> 00:54:37,440 in a way, you're kind of kneecapping designers a bit and you're, you're 1225 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,310 taking away their, their creative freedom, uh, by, by, by forcing them 1226 00:54:41,310 --> 00:54:43,170 into too much of a, a process or a box. 1227 00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:45,300 But yeah, you, you know, does that make sense? 1228 00:54:45,630 --> 00:54:46,170 Um, yeah. 1229 00:54:46,175 --> 00:54:47,070 That, I mean, that tracks 1230 00:54:47,070 --> 00:54:47,280 Bryant Gillespie: with me. 1231 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:51,330 That's like, that's the whole crux here is like, Hey, hey, this process is, 1232 00:54:51,330 --> 00:54:56,910 is fairly creative, but like, we also gotta get work done and it needs to be 1233 00:54:56,910 --> 00:54:59,130 done and in a certain allotted time. 1234 00:54:59,220 --> 00:54:59,490 Right? 1235 00:54:59,520 --> 00:54:59,940 Yeah. 1236 00:55:00,690 --> 00:55:03,000 Brian, like what, what metrics do you guys track? 1237 00:55:03,030 --> 00:55:06,180 Like, like every piece of artwork that you guys work on, on the 1238 00:55:06,180 --> 00:55:08,180 artwork IQ side, like, do you. 1239 00:55:08,925 --> 00:55:11,265 Time spent against each job, or 1240 00:55:11,775 --> 00:55:13,905 Brian Saetre: really, I should be better at tracking these metrics. 1241 00:55:13,905 --> 00:55:13,935 Okay. 1242 00:55:14,025 --> 00:55:17,655 Uh, so if tasks, that's a feature we're adding, um, okay, cool. 1243 00:55:17,775 --> 00:55:20,625 We do have like some rudimentary time tracking for projects 1244 00:55:20,625 --> 00:55:21,825 that are billable by the hour. 1245 00:55:22,065 --> 00:55:22,845 Um, oh, okay. 1246 00:55:23,415 --> 00:55:27,345 And then we have ways of looking at the data in the database and seeing how long, 1247 00:55:27,345 --> 00:55:30,735 like when someone started a project, when they fulfilled it and when it went to qc. 1248 00:55:31,065 --> 00:55:33,375 But honestly, I don't have a dashboard for that data right now. 1249 00:55:33,435 --> 00:55:36,045 So, uh, we're not, we're not using it for business analytics 1250 00:55:36,050 --> 00:55:36,855 or anything like that at this. 1251 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:38,700 Um, but that's a good idea. 1252 00:55:38,700 --> 00:55:39,870 I should be doing that for sure. 1253 00:55:40,140 --> 00:55:40,380 What, 1254 00:55:41,310 --> 00:55:43,260 Bryant Gillespie: well, I I it is more just like a gaze. 1255 00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:48,090 If like you're processing 80 pieces of artwork on a, a given day and 1256 00:55:48,090 --> 00:55:51,810 you don't have this data, then I'm just trying to, like Mike, make Mike 1257 00:55:51,810 --> 00:55:54,210 feel better about, so Oh, situation 1258 00:55:54,660 --> 00:55:54,840 Michael Riley: should 1259 00:55:54,845 --> 00:55:55,200 Bryant Gillespie: be clear. 1260 00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:55,890 We do 1261 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:57,300 Brian Saetre: have, mostly have the data. 1262 00:55:57,300 --> 00:55:58,650 It's just we don't look at it. 1263 00:55:59,280 --> 00:55:59,820 Right, right, 1264 00:56:00,060 --> 00:56:00,360 Michael Riley: right. 1265 00:56:00,900 --> 00:56:03,210 That's probably the problem with data collection in general. 1266 00:56:03,210 --> 00:56:06,750 I mean, I mean, I wonder how many companies out there track those kind of 1267 00:56:06,750 --> 00:56:10,710 data points and KPIs, but don't actually do anything, whether it's design or 1268 00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:12,750 production or anything else, like mm-hmm. 1269 00:56:12,756 --> 00:56:16,590 I I would imagine that tracking the data is in, collecting the data is one thing, 1270 00:56:16,590 --> 00:56:21,270 but actually analyzing it, putting, putting the results of that into action 1271 00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:23,040 is probably where most people fall 1272 00:56:23,045 --> 00:56:23,370 Brian Saetre: short. 1273 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,150 That, that is one of our goals for Task Os is to make the data available. 1274 00:56:27,150 --> 00:56:30,000 Because you can see exactly, you will be able to see, we don't have 1275 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,480 this implemented yet exactly how long it takes people to do each step. 1276 00:56:34,260 --> 00:56:37,830 So you can see where you could pull up the dashboard once that's done, 1277 00:56:38,250 --> 00:56:42,390 uh, and see like, wow, it's taking artists a lot of time to do this. 1278 00:56:42,395 --> 00:56:42,710 Mm-hmm. 1279 00:56:42,790 --> 00:56:45,150 Or like, this step doesn't pass qc some of the time. 1280 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:50,970 So those are the steps maybe to like focus on automating, or you could use 1281 00:56:50,970 --> 00:56:53,850 that data for other business purposes, like estimating, that sort of thing. 1282 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:54,210 Okay. 1283 00:56:54,215 --> 00:56:55,870 Once you get enough data aggregated 1284 00:56:56,460 --> 00:56:59,580 Bryant Gillespie: or driving home the value of your tool, I, I use Loom 1285 00:56:59,580 --> 00:57:01,320 quite a bit for like sending videos. 1286 00:57:01,380 --> 00:57:01,770 Mm-hmm. 1287 00:57:02,010 --> 00:57:05,010 They send me a report every week or every month that says, Hey, 1288 00:57:05,010 --> 00:57:10,020 you saved two meetings this week, or like two hours a time or four 1289 00:57:10,025 --> 00:57:11,610 hours a time, or whatever it is. 1290 00:57:11,670 --> 00:57:16,140 Brian Saetre: So yeah, I, we, we did look at some of the data recently, 1291 00:57:16,230 --> 00:57:19,260 uh, with one of our customers who's using PAs os and they're, they're 1292 00:57:19,510 --> 00:57:22,800 a big, pretty big clothing company, but uh, in the five and a half months 1293 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:28,830 they've been running it, they have saved, uh, 240 something person days. 1294 00:57:29,250 --> 00:57:30,180 Worth of labor. 1295 00:57:30,180 --> 00:57:31,509 Days, days, days. 1296 00:57:31,515 --> 00:57:32,940 Well, like 24 hour chunks too. 1297 00:57:32,940 --> 00:57:33,870 Not just work days. 1298 00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,660 Maybe I need to have a better way of talking about that statistic, but like, 1299 00:57:36,900 --> 00:57:37,980 it's kind of mind blowing, isn't it? 1300 00:57:38,190 --> 00:57:39,720 Like that's, yeah. 1301 00:57:39,725 --> 00:57:41,279 I, I would've led with that on your website. 1302 00:57:42,060 --> 00:57:42,750 Uh oh. 1303 00:57:42,750 --> 00:57:44,730 Don't, we're working on a new one. 1304 00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:45,900 Yeah. 1305 00:57:46,650 --> 00:57:46,830 Yeah. 1306 00:57:46,830 --> 00:57:49,440 If anybody's impressed by this, what I'm talking about now, look at the website. 1307 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:50,400 They might be like, wait, what? 1308 00:57:51,540 --> 00:57:54,299 Well, we've been focusing mostly on making the tech and a little 1309 00:57:54,299 --> 00:57:55,620 bit less on the website, clearly. 1310 00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:57,120 All right. 1311 00:57:57,299 --> 00:57:57,600 Right. 1312 00:57:57,690 --> 00:57:58,080 Yeah. 1313 00:57:58,859 --> 00:57:59,700 It's coming along though. 1314 00:58:00,839 --> 00:58:02,310 Michael Riley: It is an impressive metric though. 1315 00:58:02,310 --> 00:58:04,920 I mean that's, that speaks volumes about. 1316 00:58:05,850 --> 00:58:08,670 The value of, of automating things like that. 1317 00:58:08,670 --> 00:58:11,100 I mean, that's, and I'm, I'm sure that's a fairly decent size 1318 00:58:11,100 --> 00:58:16,800 company to, to save, you know, yearly year in, in, in man hours. 1319 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:22,920 But, um, I mean, it, it definitely does speak to how important it is for sure 1320 00:58:22,980 --> 00:58:24,420 when you start cracking numbers like that. 1321 00:58:24,450 --> 00:58:24,940 Yeah. 1322 00:58:25,410 --> 00:58:27,600 Bryant Gillespie: This feels like a, a pretty good spot to 1323 00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,100 like transition a little bit. 1324 00:58:29,100 --> 00:58:32,970 Do we wanna hit on like ai Mike? 1325 00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:38,220 Uh, if I'm happy to talk about it, I, I, it's also new 1326 00:58:38,220 --> 00:58:41,400 Brian Saetre: that unless you're making it yourself, you can't really be an expert. 1327 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,070 But I've been playing with it every day pretty much. 1328 00:58:44,070 --> 00:58:49,050 So Yeah, I can, I can talk about it a little bit in a sort of a, yeah, yeah. 1329 00:58:49,290 --> 00:58:50,460 Semi-educated manner. 1330 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:57,480 Bryant Gillespie: Listen, like how do you see AI affecting design, Brian, over like, 1331 00:58:57,485 --> 00:59:02,850 the, let's, let's, let's like constrain it to like the next two, three years. 1332 00:59:03,870 --> 00:59:07,049 Like I, I think we can all see where it goes long term, but yeah, like 1333 00:59:07,049 --> 00:59:11,399 side guys are like, we're short term focused, like how is this gonna 1334 00:59:11,399 --> 00:59:13,620 affect me over the next couple years? 1335 00:59:13,710 --> 00:59:14,549 Like right now 1336 00:59:14,790 --> 00:59:14,910 I 1337 00:59:14,910 --> 00:59:18,000 Brian Saetre: think it's pretty powerful for quickly generating ideas. 1338 00:59:18,839 --> 00:59:22,710 So, you know, you could just think about it like, oh, okay, well, 1339 00:59:22,740 --> 00:59:24,089 like what are some ideas I have? 1340 00:59:24,180 --> 00:59:24,990 Think about it for a little while. 1341 00:59:24,990 --> 00:59:29,520 Or you can go to Mid Journey or Dolly and throw in some prompts about what 1342 00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:33,600 you want and have it generate, you know, 30 different designs for you. 1343 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,629 And you might find something in there that like sparks the creative 1344 00:59:36,634 --> 00:59:38,490 juices that you wanna work off that. 1345 00:59:38,759 --> 00:59:40,589 So I've done that with logo designs a little bit. 1346 00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:46,319 Like you go to Dolly and you type like, uh, letter, press, logo, bird, a bunch 1347 00:59:46,325 --> 00:59:48,000 of keywords, whatever you're looking for. 1348 00:59:48,509 --> 00:59:52,350 And it'll just spit a bunch of sometimes pretty, pretty interesting, 1349 00:59:52,350 --> 00:59:56,580 um, logo ideas out at you, which you can then turn into a proper logo. 1350 00:59:57,435 --> 00:59:58,965 Using your, your Designability. 1351 00:59:59,145 --> 01:00:02,775 That isn't really our focus, our job, but when we do run into 1352 01:00:02,775 --> 01:00:05,384 something like that, that we need to do, it's, it's a pretty fun tool. 1353 01:00:05,565 --> 01:00:10,125 And then you can actually use some of these language models, which are, uh, 1354 01:00:10,755 --> 01:00:15,105 which is AI that will, uh, you, you ask it a question and it'll answer 1355 01:00:15,105 --> 01:00:18,424 the question, try to come up with a good human sounding answer to it. 1356 01:00:18,455 --> 01:00:19,065 Mm-hmm. 1357 01:00:19,150 --> 01:00:25,275 So you can, you can say, Hey, I need a logo for, I need a logo for, uh, uh, an 1358 01:00:25,275 --> 01:00:26,654 ice cream shop, or something like that. 1359 01:00:27,225 --> 01:00:30,884 Uh, please write a prompt for me, uh, in mid Journey. 1360 01:00:31,005 --> 01:00:33,075 Here are some examples, prompts in Mid Journey. 1361 01:00:33,075 --> 01:00:34,545 Please, like, copy these prompts. 1362 01:00:35,055 --> 01:00:38,085 Some prompt is like how you, uh, tell Mid Journey what to make. 1363 01:00:38,865 --> 01:00:42,315 So how do you please generate some prompts for me based on these examples? 1364 01:00:42,674 --> 01:00:44,085 Uh, but it should be for an ice cream shop. 1365 01:00:44,535 --> 01:00:47,715 And then it'll go ahead and like, give you a whole bunch of prompts that you 1366 01:00:47,715 --> 01:00:49,605 can then feed into Mid Journey or Dolly. 1367 01:00:50,265 --> 01:00:53,925 Where you can get a bunch of, uh, a bunch of examples where you don't 1368 01:00:53,925 --> 01:00:57,435 even have to think too hard about what you're even asking it to do. 1369 01:00:57,525 --> 01:00:59,265 It's that it's kind of crazy. 1370 01:01:00,465 --> 01:01:01,425 Did you follow that at all? 1371 01:01:01,425 --> 01:01:03,105 I, this people are hard to picture. 1372 01:01:03,110 --> 01:01:03,285 Okay. 1373 01:01:04,575 --> 01:01:11,775 But as far as like, what it, so I'm not like, I'm not super, super, super 1374 01:01:11,775 --> 01:01:15,375 plugged into design like you are Michael. 1375 01:01:15,735 --> 01:01:18,855 So it's a little hard for me to predict exactly how things 1376 01:01:19,425 --> 01:01:20,055 Bryant Gillespie: might go down. 1377 01:01:20,055 --> 01:01:20,265 But 1378 01:01:20,265 --> 01:01:23,085 Brian Saetre: I could tell you these tools are becoming scally useful. 1379 01:01:23,115 --> 01:01:26,835 I, I think the biggest threat there isn't such a big threat 1380 01:01:26,835 --> 01:01:28,125 to, like vector designers. 1381 01:01:28,395 --> 01:01:29,175 I think at the moment. 1382 01:01:29,175 --> 01:01:31,185 I think the bigger threat is to people who make fine art. 1383 01:01:31,215 --> 01:01:31,305 Mm-hmm. 1384 01:01:31,715 --> 01:01:34,395 And I think they should be very, very scared, like now. 1385 01:01:34,845 --> 01:01:34,995 Michael Riley: Yeah. 1386 01:01:35,055 --> 01:01:37,125 I, I definitely agree with that for sure. 1387 01:01:37,275 --> 01:01:37,335 Yeah. 1388 01:01:37,340 --> 01:01:39,525 I, I think that it's, it's a long way off. 1389 01:01:40,185 --> 01:01:44,265 You get into, you know, the technical aspects of design, 1390 01:01:44,265 --> 01:01:46,275 especially like sign design or just. 1391 01:01:47,455 --> 01:01:51,225 You know, any sort of technical design, engineering, architecture, 1392 01:01:51,555 --> 01:01:53,355 you know, product design. 1393 01:01:53,355 --> 01:01:56,924 I don't, I think it's, like you said, the ideation side of it. 1394 01:01:56,924 --> 01:02:00,134 Making something looks, it looks pretty or coming up with really neat ideas. 1395 01:02:00,134 --> 01:02:01,995 I mean, that's already here and it's only gonna get better. 1396 01:02:02,384 --> 01:02:02,444 Yeah. 1397 01:02:02,450 --> 01:02:09,464 But I, I'm skeptical that I, you know, 20, 30, 40 years down the line when 1398 01:02:09,464 --> 01:02:14,444 I'm long retired, it may reach this point, but I'm, I'm skeptical that 1399 01:02:14,450 --> 01:02:17,444 in the near future it's ever going to be able to replace that, that, 1400 01:02:17,654 --> 01:02:22,754 that technical vector cad engineering side of design, because there's, 1401 01:02:23,745 --> 01:02:25,455 there's so much nuance to it that. 1402 01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:30,090 You can't, can't be codified, I guess, for lack of a better term. 1403 01:02:30,090 --> 01:02:32,340 It's, it's, it's very subjective in a way. 1404 01:02:32,340 --> 01:02:37,140 And, and oftentimes there's only one right way to do something, but it's 1405 01:02:37,145 --> 01:02:41,790 not necessarily the way that a book would tell you it has to be done. 1406 01:02:41,790 --> 01:02:45,300 I mean, it's, it, you know, there's a lot of situational context that has to come 1407 01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:45,510 Brian Saetre: into play. 1408 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:47,670 So it's, it's based on your experience, right? 1409 01:02:47,670 --> 01:02:47,820 There's 1410 01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:50,100 Michael Riley: exactly, there's a lot of experience that comes into 1411 01:02:50,100 --> 01:02:54,720 play that I, I don't know that a machine could ever fully grasp. 1412 01:02:55,590 --> 01:02:56,190 Does that make sense? 1413 01:02:56,190 --> 01:02:57,420 Brian Saetre: I think Yeah. 1414 01:02:57,420 --> 01:02:58,290 Totally makes sense. 1415 01:02:58,290 --> 01:03:00,720 To play devil's advocate a little bit, this is where 1416 01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:01,830 machine learning might come in. 1417 01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:02,400 Mm-hmm. 1418 01:03:02,770 --> 01:03:07,530 So if you feed, uh, a computer program, uh, that does machine learning 1419 01:03:07,530 --> 01:03:10,920 with machine learning, uh, like TensorFlow is, know the name of it, 1420 01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:13,230 but hey, let's, let's zoom out for 1421 01:03:13,235 --> 01:03:14,760 Bryant Gillespie: just a minute and like, yeah. 1422 01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:14,920 Sorry. 1423 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:15,360 Am I getting too? 1424 01:03:16,530 --> 01:03:16,880 No. 1425 01:03:17,070 --> 01:03:19,860 Like what's, what's like the. 1426 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,420 The fifth grader, machine learning versus ai. 1427 01:03:24,990 --> 01:03:25,740 Brian Saetre: Oh, okay. 1428 01:03:26,250 --> 01:03:30,359 Um, so machine learning is a little more, just a little more narrow. 1429 01:03:30,365 --> 01:03:30,629 Jeff Fox, 1430 01:03:30,629 --> 01:03:33,060 Bryant Gillespie: where they show or something, it's, and then like, teach 1431 01:03:33,060 --> 01:03:34,529 me like I'm a fifth grader or something. 1432 01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:36,870 Brian Saetre: So I have a pretty good definition from machine learning. 1433 01:03:36,870 --> 01:03:41,250 AI is a little more nebulous, at least in my head, but, um, machine learning is when 1434 01:03:41,250 --> 01:03:46,920 you feed examples, when you feed a bunch of, there's a few ways to do it and it, I 1435 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:48,390 don't wanna sound like a professor here. 1436 01:03:48,420 --> 01:03:54,270 Um, so, so anyway, basically you feed, uh, a computer computer 1437 01:03:54,270 --> 01:03:57,870 algorithm or a computer, uh, program that does machine learning. 1438 01:03:57,870 --> 01:04:03,330 A whole bunch of data that shows like, Hey, this is how something should be done. 1439 01:04:03,900 --> 01:04:06,690 It might be something that's very hard for a computer programmer to like write 1440 01:04:06,690 --> 01:04:11,069 an algorithm to do because there's just, there's just too many variables involved 1441 01:04:11,075 --> 01:04:13,980 and it's just something that a human like programmer wouldn't really be able 1442 01:04:13,980 --> 01:04:15,660 to figure out, at least not efficiently. 1443 01:04:16,140 --> 01:04:19,950 So the machine learning though, uh, programs will like look at all the data. 1444 01:04:20,570 --> 01:04:26,010 And they will, uh, write algorithms that really aren't even comprehensible 1445 01:04:26,010 --> 01:04:30,360 to us humans, human programmers that will then be able to produce that 1446 01:04:30,365 --> 01:04:32,610 output sometimes fairly reliably. 1447 01:04:32,790 --> 01:04:35,910 Um, and I'm not a machine learning expert. 1448 01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,160 Uh, we've been exploring it a little bit with our product. 1449 01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:42,000 Um, so I've talked to some professors here about it who confuse me. 1450 01:04:42,060 --> 01:04:45,090 So I'm, she's now here to confuse you in a similar manner. 1451 01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:45,840 Yeah. 1452 01:04:45,900 --> 01:04:50,610 Uh, but, but it, it, you can teach machines to do very human, like 1453 01:04:50,615 --> 01:04:52,110 make very human-like choices. 1454 01:04:52,120 --> 01:04:55,050 However, that's like one choice. 1455 01:04:55,650 --> 01:04:59,610 It, uh, for like, there, there's so many choices to be made for something like 1456 01:04:59,610 --> 01:05:02,160 a d h or uh, ADA compliance signage. 1457 01:05:02,580 --> 01:05:03,030 Yeah. 1458 01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:10,170 So I think the only way that in the near term that machine learning and 1459 01:05:10,170 --> 01:05:13,110 AI are gonna matter there is if you have a company that's specifically 1460 01:05:13,110 --> 01:05:18,420 focusing on writing software for that purpose, and they train a bunch 1461 01:05:18,420 --> 01:05:19,680 of machine learning algorithms. 1462 01:05:20,625 --> 01:05:25,154 How to do all the pieces and then put it together, which I'm not sure that's gonna 1463 01:05:25,154 --> 01:05:28,904 happen in the next couple years because the, the niche is a little bit specific. 1464 01:05:28,910 --> 01:05:29,355 Yeah. 1465 01:05:29,625 --> 01:05:32,775 Bryant Gillespie: It's not, not that expensive of a problem. 1466 01:05:32,835 --> 01:05:35,654 Well, it, it's probably expensive to solve, but it's not, not that 1467 01:05:35,654 --> 01:05:37,484 valuable of a problem to solve at this 1468 01:05:37,484 --> 01:05:37,815 Brian Saetre: point. 1469 01:05:38,325 --> 01:05:42,615 The, you can get many of the gains of the automation by just, you know, automating 1470 01:05:42,615 --> 01:05:45,674 the, uh, well, we've already talked about using Task Os or other, other, 1471 01:05:45,915 --> 01:05:50,145 any other template based, um, automation system there for exporting the, yeah. 1472 01:05:50,145 --> 01:05:51,765 So you don't even need to really do that. 1473 01:05:51,765 --> 01:05:53,775 Maybe, but I, I'm sure it's coming. 1474 01:05:53,775 --> 01:05:57,225 It's just not like, it's probably a little ways away because these tools 1475 01:05:57,225 --> 01:05:58,545 are gonna have to get easier to use. 1476 01:05:58,634 --> 01:06:01,095 And the biggest thing is data is pretty hard to come by. 1477 01:06:01,905 --> 01:06:03,225 So, um, right. 1478 01:06:03,225 --> 01:06:05,385 It's hard to train something if you don't have the data to train it, and 1479 01:06:05,385 --> 01:06:08,265 that's, that's really the problem most of these machine learning scientists run 1480 01:06:08,265 --> 01:06:09,885 into when they're trying to train these. 1481 01:06:10,335 --> 01:06:10,456 Yeah, I 1482 01:06:10,695 --> 01:06:12,255 Michael Riley: was thinking that in my head as you're talking through that. 1483 01:06:12,260 --> 01:06:15,705 I was thinking here, do I understand machine learning? 1484 01:06:15,705 --> 01:06:17,745 And, and there's probably a lot of applications for it where the data 1485 01:06:17,745 --> 01:06:22,005 exists, but I'm thinking in the, in my little world of sign design, 1486 01:06:22,905 --> 01:06:24,495 everything lives in everybody's head. 1487 01:06:24,495 --> 01:06:26,415 There's, there's very little like, yeah. 1488 01:06:26,475 --> 01:06:28,995 You know, hard, hard and fast data that you 1489 01:06:28,995 --> 01:06:31,605 Bryant Gillespie: could feed to a, you need to talk to Tom and 1490 01:06:31,605 --> 01:06:35,445 get like all the, like, digitize all the back issues of sign craft. 1491 01:06:36,945 --> 01:06:37,305 Like, that 1492 01:06:37,305 --> 01:06:38,355 Michael Riley: would be pretty interesting. 1493 01:06:38,355 --> 01:06:39,675 Bryant Gillespie: It'd be interesting to see if that could, you could 1494 01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:43,485 talk about reviving what, what was once old and making it new 1495 01:06:43,485 --> 01:06:43,845 Michael Riley: again. 1496 01:06:44,145 --> 01:06:44,535 Man. 1497 01:06:44,625 --> 01:06:45,825 Robot sign pairs. 1498 01:06:46,575 --> 01:06:46,935 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, 1499 01:06:49,095 --> 01:06:50,835 Brian Saetre: that wouldn't be the kind of data you'd need for 1500 01:06:50,835 --> 01:06:52,035 machine learning algorithms. 1501 01:06:52,035 --> 01:06:53,565 So you're probably safe for a bit. 1502 01:06:53,865 --> 01:06:54,315 Yeah. 1503 01:06:54,375 --> 01:06:54,795 Yeah. 1504 01:06:55,155 --> 01:06:58,485 You might be able to get, uh, like a language model to like 1505 01:06:58,575 --> 01:07:01,155 talk like a sign maker though, pretty easily using that data. 1506 01:07:01,425 --> 01:07:01,725 Yeah. 1507 01:07:01,905 --> 01:07:02,175 Yeah. 1508 01:07:03,735 --> 01:07:04,005 Bryant Gillespie: All right. 1509 01:07:04,515 --> 01:07:05,595 I just wanna try this. 1510 01:07:05,835 --> 01:07:08,235 Give what do we, what do we tell chat? 1511 01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:08,715 G p t. 1512 01:07:08,715 --> 01:07:11,205 Like write a, let's, let's write a poem 1513 01:07:11,205 --> 01:07:13,575 Brian Saetre: about, um, automation and sign design. 1514 01:07:14,925 --> 01:07:15,675 Let's write 1515 01:07:16,065 --> 01:07:20,685 Bryant Gillespie: a poem about automation and sign design. 1516 01:07:25,635 --> 01:07:29,175 In a world of automation where machines reign supreme, there's 1517 01:07:29,175 --> 01:07:33,405 still a place for art and style where signs can catch our dreams. 1518 01:07:33,855 --> 01:07:34,125 That's, 1519 01:07:37,545 --> 01:07:37,905 yeah. 1520 01:07:37,965 --> 01:07:38,265 Okay. 1521 01:07:38,265 --> 01:07:40,575 So this, this type of stuff is cool. 1522 01:07:40,845 --> 01:07:43,245 Um, like a. 1523 01:07:43,980 --> 01:07:50,550 I want to create a what, what kind of signs do you have on the plate, Mike? 1524 01:07:51,570 --> 01:07:55,380 Michael Riley: Uh, let's, let's see what it does with a, an ADA sign. 1525 01:07:55,500 --> 01:07:58,890 I want to create a i, an ADA compliant. 1526 01:07:58,890 --> 01:08:00,240 Restroom sign. 1527 01:08:01,050 --> 01:08:01,860 Restroom 1528 01:08:02,070 --> 01:08:02,940 Bryant Gillespie: sign. 1529 01:08:03,100 --> 01:08:09,990 What's a prompt I can use to generate, uh, 1530 01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:16,110 oh, 1531 01:08:19,230 --> 01:08:20,520 hey, let's just take this piece. 1532 01:08:20,790 --> 01:08:20,880 Yeah. 1533 01:08:22,260 --> 01:08:22,590 All right. 1534 01:08:22,590 --> 01:08:24,450 So I got, I've got mid journey here. 1535 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,350 Excuse, like the, the matrix rabbit stuff. 1536 01:08:28,350 --> 01:08:31,350 Brian Saetre: That's, is, this is the worst user interface of any product 1537 01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:32,730 I've ever seen in my entire life. 1538 01:08:33,540 --> 01:08:33,990 Indeed. 1539 01:08:34,170 --> 01:08:34,470 Yeah. 1540 01:08:35,279 --> 01:08:40,500 Like everything scrolls by at a hundred miles a minute, like just creates, 1541 01:08:40,500 --> 01:08:42,120 Bryant Gillespie: oh, no, I thought I had a 1542 01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:42,779 Brian Saetre: subscription. 1543 01:08:43,075 --> 01:08:44,054 Are you out of credits? 1544 01:08:44,894 --> 01:08:45,104 Shoot? 1545 01:08:45,194 --> 01:08:45,705 Uh, 1546 01:08:46,554 --> 01:08:46,755 Bryant Gillespie: probably. 1547 01:08:47,865 --> 01:08:48,345 All right. 1548 01:08:54,795 --> 01:08:55,875 Have you played with this, Mike? 1549 01:08:56,295 --> 01:08:57,165 Oh gosh. 1550 01:08:57,194 --> 01:08:57,644 Okay. 1551 01:08:57,644 --> 01:08:59,175 I, this is not even gonna be fun. 1552 01:08:59,595 --> 01:09:00,495 I'm out of credits, I 1553 01:09:00,495 --> 01:09:00,734 Michael Riley: guess. 1554 01:09:01,665 --> 01:09:02,144 Brian Saetre: Um, 1555 01:09:02,325 --> 01:09:04,575 Bryant Gillespie: if you want, I can, uh, do a little screen 1556 01:09:04,575 --> 01:09:09,075 Brian Saetre: recording of, uh, in my, um, in my mid journey. 1557 01:09:09,404 --> 01:09:10,335 Uh, yeah, yeah. 1558 01:09:10,335 --> 01:09:13,154 You guys afterwards, if you can, maybe the podcast. 1559 01:09:13,365 --> 01:09:14,774 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, we could just drop it in. 1560 01:09:15,014 --> 01:09:15,255 Michael Riley: Yeah. 1561 01:09:15,255 --> 01:09:15,465 Cool. 1562 01:09:16,064 --> 01:09:18,434 Yeah, I played around with, I haven't played around with Mid Journey. 1563 01:09:18,495 --> 01:09:21,375 I played around with a couple of the others and, uh, but I haven't tried to 1564 01:09:21,375 --> 01:09:23,325 get it to do anything super technical. 1565 01:09:23,325 --> 01:09:28,425 I mean, a couple, Hey, I need some ideas for a, you know, a monument sign 1566 01:09:28,429 --> 01:09:29,654 type thing, just to see what comes out. 1567 01:09:29,654 --> 01:09:32,474 And some of the ideas are really cool. 1568 01:09:32,535 --> 01:09:35,595 All the, you know, the graphics and text are total gibberish, 1569 01:09:35,684 --> 01:09:36,675 you know, they're like mm-hmm. 1570 01:09:36,915 --> 01:09:40,274 They look like weird, almost like tie lettering or something, but 1571 01:09:40,365 --> 01:09:40,845 Bryant Gillespie: yeah. 1572 01:09:40,849 --> 01:09:41,005 Yeah. 1573 01:09:41,005 --> 01:09:42,554 The, the lettering is kind of weird, isn't 1574 01:09:42,554 --> 01:09:42,705 Brian Saetre: it? 1575 01:09:43,109 --> 01:09:45,870 If I wasn't busy with other stuff, I would set up an agency. 1576 01:09:45,990 --> 01:09:48,899 Maybe there's somebody listening will do this because, uh, set up an 1577 01:09:48,899 --> 01:09:52,950 agency that just fixes the fingers on otherwise fantastic mid journey artwork. 1578 01:09:53,969 --> 01:09:58,920 Just fix the fingers in the teeth, um, and like, or remove the one thing in 1579 01:09:58,920 --> 01:10:00,120 the background that doesn't belong. 1580 01:10:00,450 --> 01:10:03,450 Uh, and, and you have an, you have a pretty, you have an agency 1581 01:10:03,450 --> 01:10:04,320 that's gonna get a lot of work. 1582 01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:05,700 I think that's hilarious. 1583 01:10:05,790 --> 01:10:06,030 Boom. 1584 01:10:06,630 --> 01:10:07,050 Bryant Gillespie: Done. 1585 01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:07,620 I love it. 1586 01:10:08,130 --> 01:10:08,550 Cool. 1587 01:10:08,700 --> 01:10:10,740 Well, um, let's wrap this one up. 1588 01:10:10,980 --> 01:10:13,679 Brian, I appreciate you coming on, man. 1589 01:10:13,710 --> 01:10:17,940 Uh, before we jump, what, tell everybody how they can find 1590 01:10:17,940 --> 01:10:19,290 you, where you want them to go. 1591 01:10:19,380 --> 01:10:21,120 Like which business do you want them to visit? 1592 01:10:21,870 --> 01:10:22,530 Brian Saetre: Oh my gosh. 1593 01:10:22,559 --> 01:10:23,099 Okay. 1594 01:10:23,219 --> 01:10:28,110 Uh, so if, if anybody wants to buy, uh, a printing company in the 1595 01:10:28,110 --> 01:10:31,090 Chicago area, please let me know. 1596 01:10:32,639 --> 01:10:39,030 Uh, but uh, no, seriously, um, you can reach me at brian@artworkiq.com and my, 1597 01:10:39,030 --> 01:10:41,894 uh, other business is, uh, Businesses. 1598 01:10:41,894 --> 01:10:48,014 The URLs are www.inpro.com, artwork iq.com, task os.com. 1599 01:10:48,195 --> 01:10:52,125 And then if you wanna reach me on Twitter, my it's uh, at Brian sat. 1600 01:10:52,860 --> 01:10:54,719 And, uh, you'll have to look up how to spell that. 1601 01:10:54,719 --> 01:10:55,860 It's not very obvious. 1602 01:10:55,950 --> 01:10:58,290 Bryant Gillespie: Oh, I've, I've been pronouncing it wrong the whole time. 1603 01:10:58,620 --> 01:10:59,099 Everybody's 1604 01:10:59,099 --> 01:10:59,219 Brian Saetre: sat. 1605 01:11:00,090 --> 01:11:00,360 Bryant Gillespie: Yes. 1606 01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:01,559 Why didn't, oh dude. 1607 01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:01,920 Now I 1608 01:11:01,924 --> 01:11:02,639 Brian Saetre: feel like an asshole. 1609 01:11:02,639 --> 01:11:07,679 That French, you mean you, you're not an expert in like anti like, 1610 01:11:08,070 --> 01:11:13,799 uh, 1850s or 1890s Norwegian dialect from the southwest. 1611 01:11:14,099 --> 01:11:14,429 Really? 1612 01:11:14,519 --> 01:11:15,179 Unfortunately, 1613 01:11:15,179 --> 01:11:15,420 Bryant Gillespie: no. 1614 01:11:15,420 --> 01:11:17,549 But I want to be terrible podcast host 1615 01:11:17,549 --> 01:11:17,820 Michael Riley: here. 1616 01:11:17,849 --> 01:11:18,480 Life goal. 1617 01:11:18,559 --> 01:11:19,519 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1618 01:11:20,269 --> 01:11:21,690 What, what an ass. 1619 01:11:22,170 --> 01:11:24,090 Well, I'm sorry, I, I've got it wrong. 1620 01:11:24,090 --> 01:11:25,080 Brian Satre. 1621 01:11:25,715 --> 01:11:26,285 Satre. 1622 01:11:26,645 --> 01:11:26,945 Is that better? 1623 01:11:26,945 --> 01:11:27,825 Did you, did you 1624 01:11:27,825 --> 01:11:28,145 Brian Saetre: say it wrong? 1625 01:11:28,145 --> 01:11:29,405 When we uh, when you invited me on? 1626 01:11:29,405 --> 01:11:29,915 I don't, yes. 1627 01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:30,785 Or when you introed me. 1628 01:11:30,785 --> 01:11:30,945 Yes. 1629 01:11:30,945 --> 01:11:31,805 I didn't even know this. 1630 01:11:31,805 --> 01:11:31,895 I 1631 01:11:31,895 --> 01:11:32,105 guess 1632 01:11:32,105 --> 01:11:32,906 Bryant Gillespie: it just, yeah, I probably did. 1633 01:11:34,025 --> 01:11:37,025 You you got like the Brian Ryan thing going on too though. 1634 01:11:37,055 --> 01:11:42,335 So like anybody's around me if they say Ryan or Brian, I'm just like, yeah, yeah. 1635 01:11:42,395 --> 01:11:42,845 Okay. 1636 01:11:42,905 --> 01:11:43,895 Yeah, I was always 1637 01:11:43,895 --> 01:11:46,415 Brian Saetre: in the class with the Brian and the Ryan in grade school. 1638 01:11:46,415 --> 01:11:48,125 Like there's always like to just pack 1639 01:11:48,125 --> 01:11:48,575 Bryant Gillespie: them together. 1640 01:11:48,575 --> 01:11:48,815 Like, 1641 01:11:49,055 --> 01:11:49,865 Brian Saetre: this will be fun. 1642 01:11:49,895 --> 01:11:51,605 This'll, this'll add some humor to this class. 1643 01:11:52,685 --> 01:11:54,575 Everybody answering at once or nobody answering. 1644 01:11:54,665 --> 01:11:54,935 Yeah. 1645 01:11:55,205 --> 01:11:55,835 It's wonderful. 1646 01:11:56,135 --> 01:11:56,555 Uh, 1647 01:11:57,665 --> 01:11:59,135 Bryant Gillespie: exactly, exactly. 1648 01:11:59,525 --> 01:12:01,505 Well, we'll make sure we drop all the links here. 1649 01:12:01,510 --> 01:12:05,675 Like, are you guys, are you guys like selling Task os yet or is 1650 01:12:05,675 --> 01:12:07,835 it beta or are you doing demos? 1651 01:12:07,865 --> 01:12:12,095 Brian Saetre: It is, it's, well, it's not really beta, um, but we're just bringing 1652 01:12:12,095 --> 01:12:13,865 on customers very slowly and deliberately. 1653 01:12:14,195 --> 01:12:16,505 But if you're interested, please go to our website and sign up for 1654 01:12:16,505 --> 01:12:18,995 the list and we will let you know when it's more generally available. 1655 01:12:19,295 --> 01:12:21,755 And, um, I believe we have a forum on the website. 1656 01:12:21,755 --> 01:12:24,425 We can even describe what you'd like to do with it, which will help us sort of. 1657 01:12:25,305 --> 01:12:26,865 Determine if it's a good fit or not for you. 1658 01:12:28,185 --> 01:12:28,515 Cool. 1659 01:12:29,085 --> 01:12:31,455 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I think, I think it's very interesting 1660 01:12:31,455 --> 01:12:32,325 what you're doing with it. 1661 01:12:32,325 --> 01:12:36,525 I look forward to like following along with the progress. 1662 01:12:37,035 --> 01:12:41,985 Um, hopefully like at some point we can help Mike automate 1663 01:12:41,985 --> 01:12:44,505 and streamline his operation. 1664 01:12:44,745 --> 01:12:46,715 It's sounds like you, well 1665 01:12:46,715 --> 01:12:46,905 Michael Riley: it sounds like 1666 01:12:47,505 --> 01:12:49,275 Brian Saetre: we have one especially good use case. 1667 01:12:49,275 --> 01:12:51,015 Like that would be a fantastic use case for it. 1668 01:12:51,285 --> 01:12:55,155 And, um, I think you'd, uh, you'd find the development costs would, 1669 01:12:55,635 --> 01:12:58,395 would, would not be, uh, would be money well spent, I think. 1670 01:12:58,605 --> 01:12:58,725 Michael Riley: Cool. 1671 01:12:58,725 --> 01:12:59,235 Fascinating. 1672 01:12:59,595 --> 01:13:00,045 Bryant Gillespie: Excellent. 1673 01:13:01,065 --> 01:13:01,215 Yeah. 1674 01:13:01,935 --> 01:13:03,165 Mike, any pardoning shots? 1675 01:13:04,410 --> 01:13:09,420 Michael Riley: AI freaks me out and I'm scared for my future. 1676 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:12,809 Brian Saetre: Well, thank you. 1677 01:13:12,809 --> 01:13:14,099 Thank you very much for having me on. 1678 01:13:14,099 --> 01:13:14,940 I really appreciate it. 1679 01:13:15,179 --> 01:13:17,250 Michael Riley: Um, yeah, this is really fascinating conversation. 1680 01:13:17,255 --> 01:13:18,300 I, I appreciate 1681 01:13:18,304 --> 01:13:19,740 Brian Saetre: you coming on for, for sure. 1682 01:13:19,740 --> 01:13:22,200 I'm glad I wasn't just a nervous wreck the whole time, cuz I thought 1683 01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:25,200 I might be, but yeah, you uh, you too are good podcast host. 1684 01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:26,130 Very easy to talk to. 1685 01:13:27,570 --> 01:13:27,900 Well, good. 1686 01:13:28,260 --> 01:13:28,469 Thank 1687 01:13:28,469 --> 01:13:28,679 Michael Riley: you. 1688 01:13:28,769 --> 01:13:29,690 No, this was, this is really 1689 01:13:29,690 --> 01:13:29,929 Bryant Gillespie: cool. 1690 01:13:29,929 --> 01:13:31,980 Yeah, we're, we're, we're good ramblers. 1691 01:13:31,980 --> 01:13:32,250 Yeah. 1692 01:13:32,250 --> 01:13:34,200 We, we get good at that Yeah. 1693 01:13:34,370 --> 01:13:35,170 Ourselves. 1694 01:13:35,170 --> 01:13:35,490 Yeah. 1695 01:13:35,495 --> 01:13:38,969 If this is a good conversation, um, definitely stay in touch and 1696 01:13:39,900 --> 01:13:40,920 appreciate you coming on Brian. 1697 01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:41,550 Michael Riley: Thanks. 1698 01:13:41,639 --> 01:13:42,240 Absolutely. 1699 01:13:42,510 --> 01:13:43,110 Brian Saetre: Thank you very much. 1700 01:13:43,410 --> 01:13:43,500 All 1701 01:13:43,500 --> 01:13:43,980 Bryant Gillespie: right guys. 1702 01:13:43,985 --> 01:13:45,990 So thanks for sticking around. 1703 01:13:46,410 --> 01:13:49,200 That was, that was an awesome conversation. 1704 01:13:49,530 --> 01:13:55,740 I don't know, um, how many tips that we gave, but let's, uh, let's sum 1705 01:13:55,740 --> 01:13:59,700 this up and, and like try to distill everything that we talked about. 1706 01:13:59,820 --> 01:14:01,950 Like, do you wanna go first, Mike, or you want me to go. 1707 01:14:03,285 --> 01:14:06,455 Michael Riley: I'm still processing a lot of it. 1708 01:14:07,335 --> 01:14:10,965 No, I think it's, I think it was a really fascinating conversation to, to talk to 1709 01:14:10,965 --> 01:14:17,295 somebody who's, who's kind of eyeball deep in the, the ai, uh, automation world 1710 01:14:17,295 --> 01:14:19,275 like that and how it relates to graphics. 1711 01:14:19,635 --> 01:14:22,305 Um, and I'm, you know, my mind is like thinking of all these ways that 1712 01:14:22,365 --> 01:14:26,895 this would, would make a lot of sign companies and and wide format shops 1713 01:14:26,895 --> 01:14:28,425 and designers like me more efficient. 1714 01:14:28,965 --> 01:14:31,875 It's, it's such a new concept though, that it's really hard to really wrap 1715 01:14:31,875 --> 01:14:35,865 your head around and, and, and understand and, and I think there is like a 1716 01:14:35,865 --> 01:14:37,755 legitimate fear there from people as well. 1717 01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:42,045 I mean, for me, like I don't, I don't want my my job to be automated. 1718 01:14:42,045 --> 01:14:44,055 Where, to the point where I'm, I'm useless. 1719 01:14:44,055 --> 01:14:44,655 Nobody does. 1720 01:14:44,655 --> 01:14:45,735 Like, that's, that's terrifying. 1721 01:14:46,065 --> 01:14:48,975 But he, he made a good point that it's, it's not gonna come 1722 01:14:48,980 --> 01:14:50,355 after and take people's jobs. 1723 01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:54,045 It's just gonna change the way they, they work and. 1724 01:14:55,095 --> 01:14:58,755 And, you know, forward progress dictates that we have to adapt to that change. 1725 01:14:58,815 --> 01:15:00,495 And that's a hard thing for humans to do. 1726 01:15:00,500 --> 01:15:03,645 But I think if we're able to, uh, some of this technology is gonna 1727 01:15:03,645 --> 01:15:06,795 make our lives a lot easier and, and make us all a lot more money. 1728 01:15:07,185 --> 01:15:11,765 So I'm, I'm, I'm going to reluctantly embrace this technology and. 1729 01:15:12,495 --> 01:15:16,785 Bryant Gillespie: Reluctant embrace Sounds like a, a cologne. 1730 01:15:17,115 --> 01:15:19,275 Michael Riley: I might be ushering in the apocalypse. 1731 01:15:19,275 --> 01:15:20,175 I'm, I'm not sure. 1732 01:15:21,015 --> 01:15:21,315 We'll see. 1733 01:15:23,175 --> 01:15:25,695 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I mean, we're all like supporting this even if 1734 01:15:25,695 --> 01:15:29,715 we're like watching from the sidelines and like cheering it on or Hey, like 1735 01:15:30,345 --> 01:15:36,345 hopping in chat G P T and typing dumb stuff in there, like sign poems, like, 1736 01:15:36,435 --> 01:15:36,765 Michael Riley: right. 1737 01:15:36,765 --> 01:15:40,995 Yeah, no, like the other day I used chat, G p t i I, I just asked to create 1738 01:15:40,995 --> 01:15:46,215 me, um, a, a playlist of obscure, you know, seventies Vietnam era rock 1739 01:15:46,215 --> 01:15:47,355 and roll that I'd never heard of. 1740 01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:50,505 And like it came up with songs that, in bands that I had no idea existed 1741 01:15:50,505 --> 01:15:51,555 and I found some amazing music. 1742 01:15:51,555 --> 01:15:52,515 So it's a really cool tool. 1743 01:15:52,515 --> 01:15:56,385 I mean, I think, I think it's, it's just in its infancy and, and as it, as it 1744 01:15:56,385 --> 01:16:00,345 grows and gets more mature and as, as we, as humans grow and get more mature along 1745 01:16:00,345 --> 01:16:05,025 with it, I think, I think we'll really find a, a balance or harmony there between 1746 01:16:05,025 --> 01:16:07,815 it and, you know, old school manual. 1747 01:16:08,515 --> 01:16:08,850 Skills. 1748 01:16:09,420 --> 01:16:09,780 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 1749 01:16:09,980 --> 01:16:13,680 I, I like, you can't forget, the other side though is like this 1750 01:16:13,680 --> 01:16:15,630 thing, it got extremely popular. 1751 01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,160 I'm talking about chat, G p T. 1752 01:16:17,580 --> 01:16:17,670 Mm-hmm. 1753 01:16:17,910 --> 01:16:18,030 Right. 1754 01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,900 And that's what Brian was saying, like, you gotta have data to 1755 01:16:21,905 --> 01:16:23,310 feed this thing and mm-hmm. 1756 01:16:23,395 --> 01:16:27,510 Like at this point, like, we're just happily feeding this thing all the data 1757 01:16:27,540 --> 01:16:29,730 because it's, it's entertaining, but 1758 01:16:30,150 --> 01:16:30,420 Michael Riley: yeah. 1759 01:16:30,790 --> 01:16:33,120 We're, we're feeding it utter bullshit. 1760 01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:35,970 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1761 01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:40,410 So to me it is a little scary at times. 1762 01:16:40,410 --> 01:16:46,710 But, um, yeah, we gotta roll with it like the, back to our like, topic of, 1763 01:16:46,830 --> 01:16:48,540 of streamlining the art department. 1764 01:16:48,540 --> 01:16:53,550 I, I think we probably do like another episode of like structure 1765 01:16:53,555 --> 01:16:55,350 and SOPs and things like that. 1766 01:16:55,380 --> 01:16:58,950 Uh, I know you've got some thoughts on that. 1767 01:16:58,950 --> 01:17:01,350 I think we've both tried to tackle like a guide on. 1768 01:17:02,415 --> 01:17:06,344 Managing art files and dealing with customers and stuff like that. 1769 01:17:06,344 --> 01:17:08,894 So I, I think that would be an interesting episode, but 1770 01:17:09,415 --> 01:17:10,065 Michael Riley: I, I agree. 1771 01:17:10,134 --> 01:17:11,115 I, I think we should do that. 1772 01:17:11,115 --> 01:17:13,695 I mean, there's a lot of structural and process things that, that relate 1773 01:17:13,695 --> 01:17:17,025 to the, the design department that really don't really even have anything 1774 01:17:17,025 --> 01:17:20,955 to do necessarily with automation or, or, or, or AI or anything. 1775 01:17:20,955 --> 01:17:24,674 But just, you know, it's like any other department in your shop, you, you have 1776 01:17:24,674 --> 01:17:26,894 processes for, for everything else. 1777 01:17:26,894 --> 01:17:28,965 There should be some for, for art as well. 1778 01:17:29,355 --> 01:17:32,144 And that's something that's, you know, sorely overlooked in most shops. 1779 01:17:32,974 --> 01:17:38,235 Bryant Gillespie: I, I think the biggest takeaway for me today was just say, and I 1780 01:17:38,235 --> 01:17:43,275 heard you kind of say it, and I also heard like Brian dance around it a little bit 1781 01:17:43,275 --> 01:17:48,945 as well, is just like design efficiency. 1782 01:17:50,295 --> 01:17:54,105 Like a, I don't know, there's a way to combine them, right? 1783 01:17:54,705 --> 01:18:00,089 Uh, the creativity side of it is, It's just inherently not efficient. 1784 01:18:00,509 --> 01:18:04,589 So if you're trying to streamline your art department, you're trying to 1785 01:18:04,589 --> 01:18:09,540 make your designers more efficient, take away the boring, stupid, mundane 1786 01:18:09,540 --> 01:18:14,759 stuff that they have to do so they can focus more on the creative part of it. 1787 01:18:15,089 --> 01:18:20,940 Like get them designing the sign, automate as much as you can of the output. 1788 01:18:21,030 --> 01:18:26,759 The, uh, ripping, like I, I don't, ripping is the right word, but 1789 01:18:27,330 --> 01:18:30,030 like, output to different formats. 1790 01:18:30,480 --> 01:18:35,519 Like if, if you've got Onyx, things like that, use the hot folders and phonic Onyx. 1791 01:18:35,519 --> 01:18:39,719 Those were some of my best friends where you set up like a preset, uh, 1792 01:18:39,750 --> 01:18:42,929 drop your file in there and it does like the imposition and everything for you. 1793 01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:49,049 So try to focus on as much of that stuff, which is just like tedious, 1794 01:18:49,110 --> 01:18:51,089 you know, mistakes can occur. 1795 01:18:52,425 --> 01:18:53,115 Anywhere in that chain. 1796 01:18:53,115 --> 01:18:57,735 Like you forget to apply the proper color profile, like the 1797 01:18:57,765 --> 01:18:58,965 output's gonna be screwed up. 1798 01:18:58,965 --> 01:19:02,715 But that's, that's all stuff that computers are, are really great at. 1799 01:19:03,135 --> 01:19:03,465 Mm-hmm. 1800 01:19:04,055 --> 01:19:04,545 Michael Riley: Yeah. 1801 01:19:04,605 --> 01:19:05,175 Yeah, definitely. 1802 01:19:05,295 --> 01:19:05,715 For sure. 1803 01:19:06,525 --> 01:19:07,515 Embrace the technology. 1804 01:19:08,115 --> 01:19:11,085 Bryant Gillespie: Just don't feed it like you're bank account 1805 01:19:11,085 --> 01:19:12,216 information or any of that. 1806 01:19:15,825 --> 01:19:16,215 Brian Saetre: Yes. 1807 01:19:17,025 --> 01:19:17,805 Bryant Gillespie: Or guns. 1808 01:19:17,810 --> 01:19:18,815 Don't give us guns. 1809 01:19:20,235 --> 01:19:21,535 Michael Riley: Don't arm the computers. 1810 01:19:21,540 --> 01:19:25,905 People you want terminators cuz that's how you get Terminators. 1811 01:19:26,685 --> 01:19:26,985 Yeah. 1812 01:19:27,315 --> 01:19:27,555 Bryant Gillespie: Yeah. 1813 01:19:27,705 --> 01:19:28,065 Cool. 1814 01:19:28,545 --> 01:19:29,625 All right, let's wrap this one up. 1815 01:19:29,655 --> 01:19:34,505 If you are interested in being a guest on the podcast, we love interesting 1816 01:19:34,510 --> 01:19:36,435 stories, so shoot us an email. 1817 01:19:36,435 --> 01:19:38,355 Hey, at better sign shop.com. 1818 01:19:38,985 --> 01:19:43,575 We are suckers for good stories, so check that out. 1819 01:19:43,605 --> 01:19:44,535 Send us an email. 1820 01:19:44,635 --> 01:19:48,675 If you are a sign shop owner, make sure you check out our Facebook group. 1821 01:19:49,245 --> 01:19:52,335 You can find that somewhere down below this episode. 1822 01:19:52,335 --> 01:19:55,695 Or if you're listening, I, I don't know how you're gonna find it if 1823 01:19:55,695 --> 01:19:59,265 you're, if you're just listening, but it's in the description somewhere. 1824 01:19:59,835 --> 01:20:07,315 And big thank you to our sponsor, GCI Digital, your large format. 1825 01:20:08,445 --> 01:20:13,755 Provider, your large format wholesale print provider, your grand 1826 01:20:13,755 --> 01:20:15,795 format print wholesale provider. 1827 01:20:16,425 --> 01:20:17,535 These guys are awesome. 1828 01:20:17,805 --> 01:20:20,625 They do customer service the way that grandmother used to make it. 1829 01:20:21,075 --> 01:20:29,144 So if you want somebody who is willing to spend $5,000 on a flight 1830 01:20:29,144 --> 01:20:33,315 to make sure that you've got your stuff on time, those are your guys. 1831 01:20:33,345 --> 01:20:33,974 Check them out. 1832 01:20:33,980 --> 01:20:35,565 Print gci.com. 1833 01:20:36,255 --> 01:20:37,514 Happy to have 'em as sponsors. 1834 01:20:37,934 --> 01:20:38,205 Yeah, 1835 01:20:38,505 --> 01:20:39,165 Michael Riley: TJ Rocks. 1836 01:20:40,305 --> 01:20:41,144 Great guys over there. 1837 01:20:41,595 --> 01:20:42,195 Bryant Gillespie: I think that's it. 1838 01:20:42,705 --> 01:20:43,065 That's it. 1839 01:20:43,695 --> 01:20:44,715 Send us your nicknames. 1840 01:20:44,894 --> 01:20:46,514 Mike needs nicknames. 1841 01:20:48,644 --> 01:20:49,275 Yay. 1842 01:20:49,295 --> 01:20:52,275 And And that's a wrap, Mike. 1843 01:20:52,934 --> 01:20:53,355 Pleasure. 1844 01:20:53,355 --> 01:20:59,085 I enjoyed it today as the day keep, keep doing the Mr. 1845 01:20:59,090 --> 01:21:00,555 Rogers thing till next. 1846 01:21:02,519 --> 01:21:05,910 If you liked this episode, make sure you hit subscribe to get all 1847 01:21:05,910 --> 01:21:10,710 the latest episodes and check out our website, better sign shop.com. 1848 01:21:11,340 --> 01:21:14,670 Get free resources and helpful tools on growing your shop. 1849 01:21:15,030 --> 01:21:16,019 Thanks for listening.