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Deep conversations with underrated lawyers.
This is Horam with Horam's Quoram. My guest today is Alamdar Hamdani, the US attorney for the Southern District Of Texas. What I love about this story is that it's the classic American story of how the son of poor immigrants in small town Texas became the US attorney for one of the most important jurisdictions in the country. But I discovered another equally American part of the story that I hadn't heard elsewhere, the story of the entrepreneurial civil service that led him to where he is today. So without further ado, here's Alumnar.
Khurram Naik:Alumnar, it's great to connect with you. Thanks for taking the time to talk today.
Alamdar Hamdani:Oh, the pleasure's all mine. Thank you for having me.
Khurram Naik:So I read an article about you from 02/2006, so there's some pretty, some gems in there, and something I found out about you that you and I have in common is we've both done some door to door sales work. You sold when you were a teenager. Yeah. And not much tooler than you. I was, I worked on a political campaign where I was knocking door a door at canvassing, so fairly similar experience, but, yeah, I'd love to hear about that experience for you, what that was like, and, you know, what's the legacy of that?
Khurram Naik:Looking back now, what are the skills or perspectives that you have today that you gained knocking on those doors?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. So I was 13 or 14, just a new immigrant a couple of years before. So my dad was a cab driver. My mom worked minimum wage jobs. I grew up in a small two bedroom apartment in Euless, Texas with my little sister.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I felt like I need to go get a job and go do something. And so I sold newspapers, The Dallas Morning News door to door. And was actually quite a when I think back on it, was kind of sketchy and dangerous. They'd pile a bunch of us who weren't old enough to get a real job into the back of a van. First of all, bunch of kids being piled into the back of a van.
Alamdar Hamdani:And we'd be driven to some sketchy neighborhood in Dallas, and we'd go door to door, apartment complexes, houses, and we'd, you know, we'd give some pitch about buy the newspaper so I can win a trip to DC. And the, you know, the legacy of that is if you, you know, learning how to go and talk to strangers at a door is a pretty scary thing to do. And and and able to capture somebody's attention for even five seconds before they shut your door was kind of a win. And, you know, so I learned a lot about everything from just human dynamics to the cadence of my voice and how fast I spoke and how I said things. And of course, now as a lawyer, all of those things come into play, both from the human nature standpoint as well as the technicalities of, again, you know, the timbrel occadence of your voice.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And and very similar for me, just that experience of that fearlessness you get from knocking on doors. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:And, you know, MIND was in a political context, you can imagine how heated know, people were
Alamdar Hamdani:gonna That's even more. Yeah. That's even more like people are gonna shut the door and kick it on the way in, you know, that's tough.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, so, yeah, but you're right, it it thickens your skin, you learn to connect with people, you learn to size people up pretty fast, and I think those are valuable skills. Can you say some more about because I think Euless is a small town in Northern Texas. Right?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:And, you know, so that's gotta be an unusual experience for an immigrant unusual place to grow up as an immigrant. Can So you speak us more about that experience?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. So Euless is between Dallas and Fort Worth. It's part of what you call the mid cities. It's not that small of a town, but it's a small city. And we moved there because we originally moved to Fort Worth, Texas, which is a big city.
Alamdar Hamdani:I lived with my uncle. That did not work out well for both my uncle's family and my family. So we left and we were living in a small two bedroom apartment. You know, my dad was a cab driver in England. We came here to search for the American dream and my dad drove cabs and worked at a seven Eleven convenience store.
Alamdar Hamdani:My mom worked for everything from waitressing to finally getting a job with the airlines, but nothing beyond minimum wage. So the experience of living in Euless for me was one about just watching my parents survive in this space. Next door to us, there was a family of eight from Tonga. And so you had this very multicultural kind of thing. But then if you go to my high school, I think I was one of two or three brown people in the entire high school.
Alamdar Hamdani:And the high school was big. The graduating class was six twenty people. And so growing up, you know, I got my fair share of words describing brown people. You know, you've probably heard them all. That's And why I first heard and at the time when I was growing up, I grew up Muslim.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I was also Muslim at the time. So that was a rarity for them to see as well. So brown person, Muslim. I had an English accent, which didn't help the situation any. You know?
Alamdar Hamdani:So add to all of that, all these all these things. And, but that being said, one of the great things I think about people who grew up with meager means is I had really good parents, and I never knew how poor I really was. And I think there was something good about that. And maybe because I I also understood they were poor. I didn't ask for a lot.
Alamdar Hamdani:But I always had what I needed in high school. I always had what I needed throughout the day. Never wanted for a meal, which I think is not always the case with folks who live below the poverty line. But it's where I learned about America. It was in Euless, Texas.
Alamdar Hamdani:It's where I learned, you know, where I became a Dallas Cowboys fan. To this day, I think, you know, it's the greatest football team that I've lived. And
Khurram Naik:That's so interesting because I have to pick up on that because I I was born in Houston. I lived there for the first ten years, and, you know, it made a mark on me. Know, my parents told me when I moved to New Jersey, I I just would keep on bragging about Texas and how amazing it is and how it's going go back and that was my whole thing. And I think there is something about Texas specifically that really does you could use the word indoctrinate. I mean Texas has mythology, right?
Khurram Naik:I mean Pecos Bill and all these kinds of characters, like there wasn't any mythology in New Jersey. There was the New Jersey Devil and that's it, but there wasn't like stories or tall tales or that kind of stuff. So there's like a mythology about Texas and it stays with you. So I still feel very connected to Texas in that way. And that is something I wonder about you is, you know, despite feeling so different, you know, early on and not necessarily intentional, children don't necessarily know what they're doing, they're just echoing things they've heard.
Khurram Naik:But, you know, what would you say is the most Texan thing about you?
Alamdar Hamdani:I'd say the most Texan thing about me is I say y'all. That is a Texan thing to do. It's never the Southern thing because I was in Kentucky and they don't say y'all as much as we do. You know, it's also, I think probably the most Texan thing, and this is serious. The Texas thing that's part of me is we're friendly people.
Alamdar Hamdani:I mean, it's a place where you can walk down the street and say hello to somebody, and they'll say hello back, and it's not unusual. You know, When I'm in a courtroom and I've got opposing counsel on either side, we're always gonna be kind to each other. I think there's a Southern part of it. Southern hospitality part is alive and well, even in a big city like Houston. And I think it makes a bigger city like this a little smaller.
Alamdar Hamdani:Growing up in England, I watched the show Dallas. I don't know if you're old enough to remember that show or know that show. And so when I moved to Dallas, I had that connection. America's team at the time was the Dallas Cowboys. So that was a big deal for me.
Alamdar Hamdani:That's why I probably became a Dallas Cowboys fan because I wanted to be everything American. But yeah. And I I think when it comes to, Texas, it's it's all about just the kindness and the hospitality. So and and I I you don't see like, my sister lives in New York. And in fact, I think if I went around, you know, Queens saying hi to people, I I get really funny looks.
Khurram Naik:Well, skipping around, I think it was really helpful to get some of that background for you. And I hope you don't mind if we skip around a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. But fast forward to today, it's just there's such a fascinating contrast between how sounds what I'm hearing is you felt out of place growing up.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. And how could you be any more in place? You are the man now, like you are the prosecutor for the Southern District Of Texas. So this is society saying you squarely belong here. So how do you make sense of these two different experiences that you've had?
Khurram Naik:Well,
Alamdar Hamdani:what it does is it it it I think they're both the same in this, in that the American experience isn't a white experience. It isn't a a black experience. It's the the American experience is a patchwork. The American experience, unlike any other country, even England, which has got multicultural parts to it. This is a multicultural society.
Alamdar Hamdani:It's one that has been built upon immigrants from all over. Right? And it's a place where immigrants come from all over. So I think the fact that a South Asian is the US attorney for the Southern District Of Texas is not surprising. What is surprising is that it's taken this long to get here at times.
Alamdar Hamdani:But then that's not surprising if you know the history of South Asians. So South Asians in The United States weren't here by any stretch until 1965 when the immigration laws opened up. In 1965, before the immigration laws opened up, there were, I think, 9,000 to 10,000 South Asians in the entire United States. And so anybody who's of my vintage, 51 years old, is probably going to be an immigrant. And it's gonna take time for that immigrant community to get into society and see its children grow up and take on positions that are probably uniquely American, like being a lawyer.
Alamdar Hamdani:So it's not surprising that it's probably taken this long for a South Asian to become the US attorney just because we, as South Asians, haven't been in this country as long. And it's not surprising considering how multicultural it is. Now, if you come to the US attorney's office in the Southern District Of Texas, you will see a wall of all the prior United States attorneys. And except for an African American woman, they all look the same and they all don't look like me. But my hope is, of course, that as the first, I won't be the last and You'll have more South Asians.
Alamdar Hamdani:But I think it's wholly American for somebody of a different hue to become you know, The U. S. Attorney or go up high in government. That makes sense?
Khurram Naik:Yeah, that does make sense. And I think this also ties into I think part of the obstacle seems is that there's things, you know, we as South Asian community, and there's an overlap, I think, with Muslims as well, I happen to grow up Muslim as well, Pakistani, and there's choices that we made as a community as well in responding to our circumstances. And so I think something that you saw growing up, particularly for Muslims, think, is a wariness of being involved at the civic level, being involved in politics. So when I worked on the political campaign, I was 21, and my parents were very opposed to it. They said, know, don't get involved.
Khurram Naik:Know, until then, you know, we got messages from my parents, not just my parents, but just other people in our communities saying, hey, know, be skeptical of government, the government's tracking you, these kinds of things. You know, it didn't sound implausible but just sounded like a bit of a stretch, and then I think some of the things we learned after nineeleven was that was validated. And so there's an understandable weariness you know let's say South Asians, Muslims, whatever you have between there, have had about being involved, but unfortunately the only path it seems the way is through and so I think you it seems to me that you were an early mover in that direction. You were an early mover from our communities to get involved with being involved in civically minded activities, advocacy. And so I'm really curious about where that came from because I've read that, you know, you were impacted by nineeleven.
Khurram Naik:Your wife was pregnant at the time, and so there's just a lot that was happening for you personally that, you know, you were feeling impacted. And so I'd love to hear about that and then some more about what are choices you made that you feel that some of your peers that come from similar parts of the world or similar influences didn't make? Because it sounds like you made some choices that are neutral. I'd like to explore that.
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah, no. So I was active politically when I was in college at University of Texas. I was at UT from 'eighty nine to 'ninety three, so Bill Clinton got elected in 'ninety two. So when you're a 20 year old in college, you have this idealistic view of the world. And I think for me, maybe because I grew up in England a little bit and I was the first one to go to college, I didn't know what I wasn't supposed to get involved.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I got involved. My mom and dad, they were too busy just trying to pay the rent to really counsel me in kind of what I should or should not get involved in. So a lot of my paths in life have been ones I've just kind of gone down because I felt like it's the right way to go. I didn't know. Or maybe in the wrong way.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I was involved in politics in college, but then I got You're right. I stayed out of it. When I was in law school, I went to law school at night at the University of Houston. I was working at a company and I was like, if I can maybe one day make $60 a year, I'd be the happiest guy in the world. And I think that maybe this law degree will get me there.
Alamdar Hamdani:And then I made a law review and then I realized there were all these law firms who were paying a lot more money than that. And so I went to school full time and finished my law degree and I got a job at a midsize firm, then became a big firm. And anyway, so I did the big firm life and I was married. I was trying to make as much money as I could. Now all I want to do is become partner at a law firm because that's what I thought was the pinnacle of any career in law.
Alamdar Hamdani:And then, as you said, nineeleven happened. So when nineeleven happened, I was two years out of law school and I realized, I just realized that people who look like me or shared my parents' faith were going be looked at with eyes jaundiced by the deeds of Muslim terrorists. And so I said, What do I do? I got this law degree. What do I do?
Alamdar Hamdani:First of all, the fact that I said that to myself, I think, is kind of a big part of my life changed because I said that to myself. I said to myself, what do I do? What should I do? And I started to represent people pro bono in FBI interviews. And so FBI was interviewing people around Houston.
Alamdar Hamdani:Right after nineeleven, pretty much if you were a Muslim male of a certain age, you were gonna be questioned by the FBI. And so I started representing people for free. I I teamed up with a guy in the criminal defense world because all I did was commercial litigation. And I learned kind of about the practice of how to protect people's rights in those interviews. I also learned about several things.
Alamdar Hamdani:I learned how my client was extremely terrified. I learned how the agent was terrified. They didn't want another nineeleven on their hands. But I also learned about myself and I learned that I really enjoyed doing that work. And I also enjoyed not charging for it.
Alamdar Hamdani:Sounds weird, but I felt I could be just more in the moment and more for that individual and be more aware of what the issues were because I wasn't getting paid. They couldn't pay anyway. If I did it pro bono, just felt a little bit more pure to me. Right or wrong, that's how I felt. And so I did these.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so as I told people, I used to say I did the billable work to feed my family and I did the pro bono work to feed my soul, and it really did. So that's how I kind of got to know that moment, right there changed my life. That decision to get involved and be a part of something changed my life. And, you know, it would eventually lead me to joining the board of the ACLU of Texas to doing civil rights work. Know, luckily, the firm was letting me do both.
Alamdar Hamdani:I eventually left the firm, started my own practice so I could do more in-depth civil rights work. I did habeas petitions for people stuck in immigration detention. I eventually took on a couple of criminal defense cases on the national security side. But it all it all started, as you as you mentioned, because of that decision to get involved. And of course, that would all eventually lead me to want to leave private practice and become a public servant.
Khurram Naik:And so I'm struck with you reach out to ACLU, you reach out to the Anti Defamation League. Yes. And did anyone model anything like that? When you did those things, like, hey, I'm going pick up the phone and call these organizations and see how I can help. Had you ever seen someone do something like that before?
Khurram Naik:Where did you get this idea from?
Alamdar Hamdani:No, I just did it. I just did it. You know what? It probably comes from So, one of my other jobs I had was selling AT and T and Sesame Street books over the phone. And so, I remember it was the most awful, god awful job, just awful.
Alamdar Hamdani:This is the mid-90s and it was just not a fun time.
Khurram Naik:Not sure that you like pick the phone and you start talking like the voice of Cookie Monster to get this.
Alamdar Hamdani:No. If I'd done that, maybe I would have gotten more sales and I would have stuck with it. But so picking up the phone and calling somebody, wasn't so scary. I'll tell you what was scary that was knocking on the door and walking in and seeing who you are and saying, What do we talk about? But I think what helped, and I agree you talked about the Anti Defamation League, right, a historically Jewish organization.
Alamdar Hamdani:But I called them. I literally called them. I didn't know anything about them. But the word anti defamation, I was like, I think I don't want to be defamed. I think I needed to call this organization.
Alamdar Hamdani:And that's why I called them. And it was great. It ended up being a wonderful relationship and marriage. I learned so much about civil rights work, and about engaging not only with the community, but engaging with law enforcement and, you know, having a mutual kind of understanding of each other. And it's really, of course, it's it's through that process where I got to know law enforcement, where I got to know not only FBI agents or or local police, but also got to know eventually the federal prosecutors in the Southern District Of Texas.
Alamdar Hamdani:And eventually one day I remember I'm sitting there on the other side of the AUSAs defending somebody and I said to myself, I really believe I want to be on the other side. And so it's but yeah, but it all it all starts with just picking up that phone and, you know, making the call. But yeah, I modeled nobody except my own Sesame Street selling book days.
Khurram Naik:I'm so fascinated with this point in your story because I just think there's so many interesting themes or dynamics that are at play there. So here you are, a federal prosecutor, and just at a glance, if you know something about federal prosecutors, you have this image in your mind of this very storied arc that led them there of kind of like, you know, this kind of clear trajectory towards the office. And I think, you know, when we think about government officials, rarely do we think of the word entrepreneurial, but I can't see how you could have ended up where you are today without this entrepreneurial venture that you did. And I'm also struck with the nature of the entrepreneurial venture, which was it was very low risk in that you didn't have to quit your job to do this thing. It's something that you're doing on the side.
Khurram Naik:You didn't necessarily have a destination. It's not like, great, I'll do this. And because I do this, I'll end up as the US attorney, you know, whatever. That's obviously not why you end up doing that. You're clearly doing it out of some passion.
Khurram Naik:But how how do you also reconcile that with ambition is really interesting to discuss because so I read this interview from 02/2006, and you made a comment there that I'm assuming it was tongue in cheek, but probably there's some truth to it saying, oh, you know, I'm hoping my son will become president. And, you know, I think that speaks to an ambition that you have for yourself, for your family, and, you know, it's not an accident that you end up as U. S. Attorney now, so clearly ambition was a part of it too, But how do you reconcile ambition with doing thankless tasks? Like no one, there was no career prospects in representing the most hated group in America, the number one enemy, these Muslims, potential terrorists for free.
Khurram Naik:So like there's no money in that, future in that. So just like how do you reconcile ambition with doing these thankless tasks, entrepreneurship?
Alamdar Hamdani:I think it's probably so when I think of ambition, I think of moving up the ladder to the next step. For me, I don't think it was about ambition. It was really I think maybe, you know, maybe I just I wanted to be a public servant, but I didn't know how to be one. And so I did this stuff as public service. And, you know, it's interesting.
Alamdar Hamdani:Probably one of the biggest moments in my life when I think about it is when I decided I didn't want to be a partner at a Biddle offer anymore. Like, I woke up in the morning. Was like, I don't think this is what I want to be at this point in my life. What do I, you know, what do I do? And so, you know, when you have when money isn't the most motivating factor, I think you can allow public service and its attraction kind of creep in to your life and you want to do more of it.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so I think for me, what drove me so take my son, right? So I was really cognizant of the example I'm setting for my child. You know this, when you've got a five month old, right? I think you've got an older child as well. You're really cognizant about the person I am is gonna be most likely the person my child's gonna emulate to some extent.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so I wanna make sure I set the best example I can for my son. And what is for me a good example? For me a good example is public service. And so if my son sees me in pub doing public service, then maybe my son will wanna one day emulate that and give back to the community and not think, for example, money is the most important thing in the world. And I think that was driving me at the time was that.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so the reason I probably and I know the reason I did all that pro bono and civil rights work was really just out of this idea of, I think I want to be a public servant. I don't know how to be one. This is the lowest threshold to public service is to say, raise your hand and go, I'll do it and I'll do it for free. Let's go. And then when I did that, I never thought it would be an avenue to when they become an assistant US attorney.
Alamdar Hamdani:The same thing with all the South Asian Bar Association work I was doing. So, I was doing a lot of pro bono work. The South Asian Bar Association work. I will say this, I thought maybe I'd pick up some brown clients by doing that. Never happened.
Alamdar Hamdani:But what I really found joy in was kind of meeting the mentors I'd love to have and maybe one day becoming one to others. So, again, that was just me trying to, know, more a part of this public service idea. So eventually, all of that would lead me to getting the AUSA position, but it was never part of the grand plan when I went into it. And so I don't think ambition drove me. I think one thing I tell people now is you gotta follow your passion and follow where your heart leads you.
Alamdar Hamdani:But I've done that. I've luckily done that. I've luckily got away with it and made a living while doing it. So that's so that's kind of what led me down. That was kind of the thirst for public service.
Khurram Naik:And I think that's interesting because, you know, I think a lot of people perceive that to be a luxury, be a public servant, and so I'm reminded of there's a quote from John Adams that just looked up that you just reminded me of and maybe familiar with that, and the original is kind of long, I'll just kind of paraphrase that, but he's saying, I must study I think this is a note to himself or a letter to a friend, I'm not sure which. I think it might be a letter to his wife. I must study politics in wars that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy in order to give their children right to study painting and poetry. And so, you know, what's interesting is that I always perceived I think so on the subject of immigration, so many people, my parents are immigrants, they were selected for their economic acumen and ability.
Khurram Naik:So my father had a full scholarship to a small MBA program. He was selected for his academic aptitude and his ability to perform economically in the society, know, to be a contributor in that way. And so then he did. He came to the country and long story short, he wrote software for lawyers. That was the thing that he figured out to do, and then he ran with that.
Khurram Naik:So that's who we brought over, right? And so that's And then their children, of course, are going to have something in them of entrepreneurship and that kind of economic drive. So of course, in our community, we see so much focus on economic performance, and that's the metric I think so many of us value ourselves. And the question, you know, when I went to college, I really, really opened my eyes because I always just assumed, like, obviously, go to college to study and learn how to make money, and then I would meet all these kids from other parts of the country that weren't necessarily from wealthy families, some of were, some weren't, but any number of them were like yeah I'm just pursuing this because I find this interesting and I'm well aware there's not really any money in this path, and to me I just I was just my mind was blown by that. Was like what do you mean you're not optimizing for money or that kind of status?
Khurram Naik:And then I really realized yeah, I mean what it means to have truly arrived here, to really fit in as American, is to be able to have that freedom to just pursue what, like you say, what you value. And so I kind of wonder if how is it we can get people, say South Asians or the people that feel this pressure to perform in this one specific domain. How can you get people to see, hey, you really want to fit in here and really feel like you're valued, do the thing that you're, like you said, you used the word passion, passionate about or that you are interested in or have aptitude for. Stop optimizing for this one dimension that I think is so prevalent in our small community that we all measure each other against.
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. No. And so, you know, I was in private practice for nine years and that nine years I did both. So I thought, okay, it's not much of a risk, as you mentioned earlier, because I had my full time job and I was working and I was either billing hours at the firm or had my own law practice, taking on a combination of plaintiff's work and defense work or even some contingency fee work and also doing all the pro bono work as well. So I think if you can do both, great.
Alamdar Hamdani:It's also a lot, like it's a lot. But I'll tell you, once I became an AUSA, and the good thing about becoming an AUSA is the pay is still decent, but I really I was now able to just focus. Didn't have to worry about clients or billing or a draw or a paycheck or making partner. All those worries went away. I also did have to worry about, you know, the pro bono work and how's it going to fit.
Alamdar Hamdani:All I had when I became an AUSA was I get to be a public servant, which is clearly something I wanted to be, as well as get paid a halfway decent salary and just focus on putting away bad guys or doing justice, hopefully doing both. And it was almost freeing when that happened. And it took me a while to understand that was there and that existed. Like, didn't know what an AUSA was until I was probably a lawyer for several years. Like when you read that article in 02/2006, I probably at that point may have met one or two AUSAs.
Alamdar Hamdani:That's probably the first time I met AUSA. But once I became one, it was really free. And I was doing a lot of fundraising on the politics side and doing all this other stuff. And when you become an AUSA, can't do any of that stuff. It's nice.
Alamdar Hamdani:You just get to focus on this one thing, one job you have. And I will say this, it is not a luxury in that when I was doing it, I was doing both working and doing hits. Was working almost sometimes, you know, burning both ends of the candle. And then when you become an AUSA, you will take a pay cut to become one. And for the most part, probably will, especially if you came from a big firm kind of life and big firm kind of pay.
Alamdar Hamdani:But like I said, it's a very simple edict. You do justice. It's that simple. And I do see more people going to the public service over the past couple of decades.
Khurram Naik:Is there anything you miss about private practice?
Alamdar Hamdani:No. And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why I don't miss. Maybe for me right now, private practice, I miss the money. That's always nice.
Alamdar Hamdani:Right? I do miss that. But civil work at times is quite uncivil. At And times I would have been part of that problem, not part of the solution, because it's just the atmosphere. And it doesn't have to be uncivil.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so that was one part. When money gets involved, petty discovery fights get involved. People get pretty nasty. Your worth is measured by how many hours you bill. I don't miss that.
Alamdar Hamdani:But, you know, one thing I do miss is working on some pretty complicated issues with some really talented lawyers. And so you don't always get that when you're doing gun and drug cases at the US Attorney's Office, but you do get to do that when you do, as I did for most of my career, national security, public corruption, and large white collar cases. There I get to kind of hang out with some of the folks I used to work with when I was in the private sector. So that's kind of fun, but there's not much I miss about the private sector. Besides the money, I really enjoy kind of there's one thing you have as an AUSA, which I don't think you find anywhere else, that is the prosecutorial discretion, that you have.
Alamdar Hamdani:Even as a young AUSA, you have so much discretion. Even taking a gun case or a drug case, you know, the moment the AUSA touches the life of another human being, that life changes. And so before we touch, before we reach out, you know, we've gotta make sure we've used our discretion appropriately. And, you know, the trust the department gives us to do that is it's pretty astonishing if you think about it. And so, you know, it's it's that's why when I interview, I'm looking for those who I think would take that incredible power and use it judiciously and appropriately.
Alamdar Hamdani:But it's something you don't get in the private sector. Like, that kind of ability, that discretion is is yeah. So there's not much I miss from the private sector.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. Understood. All right. So you mentioned that, you know, you were some years in a practice, and then you, you know, had just got exposed to your federal prosecutors. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:Tell us more about that story, about the path from you've got your own practice to ending up as a US attorney.
Alamdar Hamdani:So it started with this pro bono work I'm doing. So I got to know FBI agents, but I never got to know AUSAs. But then one day So one time I had this habeas petition for this guy who was stuck in immigration detention for several years. I'm taking the deposition of this guy, not this guy, but I'm taking the deposition of the deportation officer. So if you can imagine, my client has been in detention for four years and he ran out of money years before that.
Alamdar Hamdani:He's Pakistani Muslim. And I say, Okay, I take the deposition of the deportation officer and I ask him a specific question based upon a Supreme Court case that had just come out. And if the deportation officer answered in the affirmative, then under that case, my client had to be released. So I'm at the US Attorney's Office. First, I've come to the US Attorney's Office, this office I've been there.
Alamdar Hamdani:And on the other side is a guy named Daniel Hugh. Daniel Hugh was the deputy chief over the civil section. And I asked the deportation officer the question and he says, Yes, which means my client must be released. So I say, Hey, let me stop this deposition. You gotta understand, every civil interaction I've had has always been contentious.
Alamdar Hamdani:And like I said, civil is often uncivil. So I go, Daniel, go outside and talk. And we go outside and I go, Daniel, why is my client still in detention? You heard what the deportation officer said. And Daniel said, He will be released tomorrow.
Alamdar Hamdani:Boom. And so that was the first time I'd come across just not first of it. What what astounded me was the decency of Daniel, the power he had, like discretion to do that.
Khurram Naik:Right.
Alamdar Hamdani:And the honesty he showed. And that to me was the first moment when I was like, I like these guys. These guys are honest. They're good. They're smart.
Alamdar Hamdani:And then when I took on some criminal defense matters in the national security realm, I got to know the AUSAs on the other side because I had clients that were proffering for thirty, forty sessions because these were complicated national security cases. And when I got to know the AUSAs on the other side, first of all, same thing as with Daniel, they're decent, good people just trying to do the right thing. And I could see that. But then I also saw that this case I had, which was really cool and fascinating and this client I had, which was incredibly interesting. I'm not going get that often, but these guys get to see it every day, all the time.
Alamdar Hamdani:I was like, I think I want to be one of them. And so that's what really led me to say, you know, I think I want to become a federal prosecutor in AUSA. Never thought I'd have the credentials nor the ability to become one, but that's what led me down that path. And so that's the arc. So my the arc of my career is unlike many arcs.
Alamdar Hamdani:You know, it's it's and it's it's one that for me was surprising when it led to the US attorney's office. It wasn't, one that was ever planned out.
Khurram Naik:And so then what what came next? So so you decided I wanna move in that direction, then what?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. So then I applied for a job at the US police office in Houston here. I had one round of interviews. I hadn't got a second round. And then I met a guy at a South Asian Bar Association conference in San Francisco.
Alamdar Hamdani:His name is Amol Tupar. Amol Tupar at that time was the United States Attorney for the Eastern District Of Kentucky. Amol Tupar is the first South Asian to become a presidentially appointed Senate confirmed US Attorney. At the time, I didn't know what that meant or the importance of that, but I knew he was the US Attorney. And he also told us in this very first meeting that he had just been nominated to become the first South Asian to become an Article III judge, which was a dream of me and my leaders in the South Asian bar.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so we were over the moon, the fact that a brown guy was finally gonna become an Article III judge. But Amul said, Hey man, why don't you come interview with my office in the Eastern District Of Kentucky? I said, All right. Don't know where Kentucky is. I'll figure it out, but I will go interview.
Alamdar Hamdani:And I interviewed and I was struck by the decency of the human beings that interviewed me and the kindness of them. And I was really just like, These people are nice. And then a multipar offered me a job. And when you're the son of a cab driver, a burned a hand is worth more than two in the bush and you move. And so I moved my small family, my young son, my pregnant wife.
Alamdar Hamdani:I quit my law practice. She quit her job. We sold a house and we moved to Kentucky so I can become a federal prosecutor. So that's how it happened. So it happened because of a whole host of reasons.
Alamdar Hamdani:The South Asian bar, it happened because I was open to it because of all this work I'd done. And then I was lucky enough to meet Amol Tupar and he said, Come interview with me. And one thing I've learned as the US attorney, the US attorney has a big say so in who gets to be hired, I. E. US attorney can pick who they want to hire.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so it's not lost on me now, especially as the US attorney, how much Amol Tepar's influence was in me becoming a federal prosecutor. But for him, I don't think I'd be one. I don't think I think I was good enough to be hired in Houston. But frankly, I'm so glad that Abul took a chance on me. So that's how I became one.
Alamdar Hamdani:Can you say
Khurram Naik:some more? I think what's really fascinating in people's stories are the personal dimension that drives their professional choices. So I don't think we can talk about your story without understanding how is it that you as a family decided, hey, we all are in this to take this risk because it's a risk. Know, you had a successful private practice in Houston. Your wife was working there as well.
Khurram Naik:Kids, you know, the ball's rolling for them too. That's a lot to move. And by the way, my family, again, similar story. My parents identified that they wanted to get us to a really great school district in New Jersey, so they moved. I was 10.
Khurram Naik:That's why we moved from Texas to New Jersey. So my family also uproot and my dad was had his own business and had his own clients in Houston, had to get new clients in New Jersey. And so it was it was a huge a a lot give up, a lot of opportunity cost. So how did you as a family decide that that was the right move? Because there's a lot you know, before we were talking about something that was low risk, hey, doing this work on the side, whatever.
Khurram Naik:Now there's a risk involved, selling the house.
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. It's a big one.
Khurram Naik:Putting everything, leaving your law practice, you know? Yeah. Tell me some more about what ends
Alamdar Hamdani:up happening. So I remember, I interviewed with Kentucky. My wife was not happy about me going to Kentucky to interview. And I told her, honey, don't worry about it. Guys like me don't get jobs like that.
Alamdar Hamdani:And and I was serious. I was like, there's no way I'm gonna get this job. And then I remember it was a Tuesday. Amul Tupac calls me up and offers me the job. I tell my wife, she is not happy.
Alamdar Hamdani:And, I call I I tell my wife and she is not happy. And you could cut the tension in the air with a buttock, with a knife or whatever. And the next day, my wife says, I need to tell you something. So it's Wednesday. She says, I'm pregnant with our second child.
Alamdar Hamdani:And I was like, I was so afraid if I saw that child's face, I wouldn't take the risk. So on Thursday, I called up a multipoint accepted without my wife's okay. So to answer your question, I am married to the most amazing human being, literally am. She was not happy. I was in the doghouse for about a year after we moved.
Alamdar Hamdani:But to her credit and to my gift, right, is she stuck by me and she understood we took a pay cut, big one, to sell the house. Just so you know, kind of add The way it works is the department will tell you when you've cleared your background. Your mind took forever. And then after you do that, you have to report for duty. And so they're like, you have to report for duty.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I had to report for duty and the house had been sold. So I left and I left a wife that was at that point five months, six months pregnant, a son who was about two and a half, a house to sell. She's working full time and I head off to Kentucky to go chase my dream of becoming an AUSA. And anyway, three months later, I moved her up. And so I my wife up when she was eight and a half months pregnant.
Alamdar Hamdani:So she gave birth in a town she hadn't been to, nor seen until I moved her up into a house she hadn't seen until I moved her up. And then my daughter was born in Kentucky. So it was one that I'm thankful for. Ever since then, every move, of course, I've consulted with her. But, That sounds prudent.
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, I got lucky, in that she didn't leave me after that. So yeah.
Alamdar Hamdani:Because I don't think most people it's it's it's a big thing to do and a lot of people wouldn't make that sacrifice and move up. And even to this day, I ask people to make that sacrifice and move to places like Laredo, McAllen, Brownsville, or Houston, or Corpus Christi. I think what helps is I made that move and I made that sacrifice. And I think if I I can do it, I think other people can maybe see themselves doing it as well.
Khurram Naik:So I guess I'll be curious to return that theme. Like, do you feel I mean, so before, we were talking about this thing that was very low risk. Now this thing that you took was very high risk. You feel like in order to do big things in your career that you have to take big risks like that? Like, I mean, what's the takeaway from the fact that you took such a significant risk and it worked out?
Khurram Naik:What can we learn from that and what can we generalize from that as far as making career decisions? Like, you know, what's your point of view on taking big risks? I think sometimes ignorance is bliss. And so I took that risk not knowing what it was
Alamdar Hamdani:like to be a federal prosecutor, especially one in Kentucky, not knowing what it's like to live in Kentucky. And they took the risk on me, right, when they hired me to go move down there. So I do believe may be ignorance is bliss, but also being confident in your abilities. I've always been confident that I could figure it out and get the job done and also knowing I'm going to screw up along the way and figuring out how to be tough on myself, but not too tough on myself so that I can keep moving forward. So a lot of people will mess up and maybe want to quit.
Alamdar Hamdani:I've never been that. And so I think that helps. I've never been somebody who's just gonna quit because it got too hard. And so knowing that about myself, I think, helped me to make the risk. But yeah, I mean, you don't have to make big risks to be hugely rewarded.
Alamdar Hamdani:But for me, I know if I make the big risk and I put in the work, that I know I can get there. I have this confidence that says I can get there. And so I think that's that's definitely my style. But like I said, part of it was just ignorance is bliss.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, I like that principle. Sounds very helpful for, think, lot of people that end up as lawyers and that's largely lawyers that are going to be listening to this. Of course, we're very cerebral, very analytical, and used to using, you know, doing our diligence. And I think the biggest risk as a group that we face is overthinking things. And so you got to go through gut.
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah, you do. Mean, I'll tell you. So I've given offers to a couple of folks to be AUSAs, and they'll overthink it and they'll turn down the job, which I find to be incredibly fascinating because it's one thing. I I get it. Maybe financially you can't make it work.
Alamdar Hamdani:That's one thing. But moving to a new city, I don't know, and they overanalyze it. I'm like, Man, you just got to make that move. You just got to make it. It'll work out.
Alamdar Hamdani:Trust me. I'm picking you. That's a big part of the equation. You made it to the final interview. That's huge.
Khurram Naik:Am helping you de risk this. You have my support. I'm helping you de risk this.
Alamdar Hamdani:Yes, exactly. So anyway, but yeah.
Khurram Naik:The finance bit is interesting. I mean, I don't imagine you necessarily know the full picture of these different people, the different people who've chosen to be in the office or not chosen the office, their financial history. You've mentioned growing up very poor. You feel like that exposure you had growing up you know, had paved the path for you to have the financial freedom where you're not, you know, you don't have golden handcuffs, don't say I have to have X standard living based on Y income. I mean, what role do you feel like that's played your path and in paths you've seen in people who've gone to public service or, like you say, chosen not to?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. You know, I think when you grow up poor, it's a driver. You don't wanna be poor again. I don't want be poor. I don't want my children to be poor.
Alamdar Hamdani:But I also understand that happiness doesn't come from an $80,000 vehicle or a million dollar home. If you take those two aspects and you realize that happiness comes from family, from the career you have, the job you have, and then be able to have a job that pays you a good enough wage to where you can, you know, buy a house, but not buy the million dollar house and buy a car, but not buy an $80,000 or a $100,000 car, and you're happy with that, I think that's where poverty helps. Because you knew you were happy when your mom and dad were making less than $20 a year combined and paying for a $385 a month apartment. And so you know you'll be happy if you're making, you know, a low 6 figure salary as opposed to a high 6 figure salary or whatever. So it's yeah.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I think that perspective helps ease the burden of not having as much as others. But I'll say this, I have a kid going to college and I really feel the pain of like, man, fifteen years in public service does kind of add up at times. However, again, I know if I can make it, my son can make it too because I can make it. And so I know he'll make it, when he goes to college.
Khurram Naik:Yep. You talked about, you know, growing up, you were just one of a couple kids that were not white in your high school. Tell me about the path that led you to find other South Asians or other people that were more like you that you resonated with. Like tell me about the path to find those people professionally or otherwise as well if you'd like, but
Alamdar Hamdani:No, no, professionally. I didn't know many brown folks when I was growing up. When I went to college, UT's got a pretty significant South Asian population. I met a bunch more there, but I really didn't become really close friends with a whole bunch of them. I know that I didn't anything professionally, but it was after law school.
Alamdar Hamdani:So law school, I want to say, and I've looked at all the pictures and said, this is not a very scientific way, but I think I'm the first Brown guy in the law review at U of H. So U of H doesn't have a storied history of a bunch of South Asians graduating. When I graduated from U of H, I think there was maybe three or four of us that were South Asian, if not, that was it. But for some reason, armed with a law degree, I felt this desire to want to meet other lawyers of South Asian origin. I don't know why.
Alamdar Hamdani:Maybe I'd finally come to my profession. I'd finally come to my profession. This is what I'm going to do for the rest of my life. Now, let me find other brown folks. And so, I found the South Asian Bar Association of Houston and that's the first time I really met other brown lawyers.
Alamdar Hamdani:And to this day, those folks who started the organization are still people I talked to, are friends with. And then we started the South Asian Bar Association of North America in the early 2000s in the wake of nineeleven. And those folks stole my friends and people I care about to this day. And so that's I think it was once I knew what my career was, I looked for people who looked like me in that career. And I see it every day now when I look at Today, right before I got on the call with you, I just swore in a South Asian law student for an intern position.
Alamdar Hamdani:And I could just sense like a level of comfort. Even though I'm the US attorney, she just there's just a level of like, I get her and she gets me because we had that shared background, that shared experience. Hers is probably a lot different from mine, but her uncle actually is one of the AUSAs in this office, and he's also, you know, another brown guy, but a really good AUSA. But there was just a level of comfort, I think, that I sensed when I walked when I first walked into somebody's living room who was hosting a South Asian Bar Association event in 1999, if that makes sense.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, and what did it do for you? I mean, so it's not like you were, you know, it's not like you were in private practice, great, I'll meet these South Asian lawyers and some of them are going to be in house counsel and I'll get work from them or they'll refer me matters as as other, you know, lawyers in private practice. Like, I mean, like, what did you get out of it personally, professionally to be associating with other South Asian lawyers?
Alamdar Hamdani:That's a great so but and there's many ways there's many reasons to join a bar organization like that. Right? And I think many people joined the South Asian Bar Association for that purpose. Let me get you know, I'm doing a lot of cross border work with India. This will help me get some good Indian clients to help grow my cross border practice.
Alamdar Hamdani:And I think that's a valid reason to do it. I did it. So I joined the South Asian Bar. We formed the South Asian Bar Association of North America because I wanted to be part of something bigger and feel comfort, from those who look like me, are going through the same issues as me. There was just some I wanted to share my experience with other people who had the same experience as me.
Alamdar Hamdani:There was something really important for me about that. And I think the reason that worked differently for me is I was looking for mentors. Was looking I wanted to be like, for example, there's a guy whose name is Nadeem Bezar. Nadeem Bezar is a well known Philadelphia plaintiff's lawyer, one of the most successful. I know I wanted to be He's older than me.
Alamdar Hamdani:I wanted to be Nadim. He's a good dresser and eloquent, great trial lawyer. I was like, I don't want to be Nadim. But one thing I didn't do is I didn't go to Nadim and say, Hey, help me develop clients. I just wanted to be like Nadim as far as a good child or I want to learn from him.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so I approached him differently than probably other people did. So because of that, I had developed these relationships that were, I think for me, quite meaningful. And those relationships, I will tell you this, Quorum, if it wasn't for those relationships, I wouldn't be in front of you right now. It and every one of it took Nadim Bezars. It took
Khurram Naik:Let's dive in. Tell me some more. Let's Yeah. Dig into
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. So when I did that, I met as you know, met a multipar, but I also met a guy named Paul Gruell. Paul Gruell is now a legal counsel for Coinbase. At the time, he was a big partner at a well known firm in San Francisco. I wanna be like Paul too.
Alamdar Hamdani:And Paul and I became friends. In fact, I became his president-elect when he was the president of South Asian Bar Association of North America. To this day, him and I are dear friends. Through my civil rights work and through my South Asian Bar Association, we're gonna get to know a guy named Jim Ho. Jim Ho, at that point was chief counsel to senator John Cornett.
Alamdar Hamdani:He was also quite active in the Asian American Bar Association of America, and him and I got to know each other on a fully good, friendly level. Jim Ho is now in the Fifth Circuit. Jim Ho, I can tell you, was a big part of me getting in this job. And so you've got all these folks I met twenty fifteen, ten years ago in the South Asian Boer. And so those relationships two years ago, no, was two and a half years ago, in December 2020, Biden becomes president, or Biden's elected president.
Alamdar Hamdani:And I was like, I think I want to become the US attorney. So first of all, Coram, if it wasn't for Amol Tupar, which is so important, Amol Tepar's presence, his existence, and then of course him hiring me. If it wasn't for him, I don't think I would have given myself permission to even say this guy could put his picture up on that wall, first of all. Secondly, I, you know, I had friends on both sides of the political spectrum, which really I think was really helpful for me. Well, one thing about being a lawyer, I think I have, I think, prided myself on is even though I did a lot of civil rights and civil liberties work, and I'll give you a good example.
Alamdar Hamdani:Back in the day when I was doing a lot of ACLU work, I was debating the US Attorney's Office, this office, and I was debating the head of the national security section in this office in open forums about national security policy. So the University of Houston at Rice, you know, different places. His name is Abe Martinez. Abe and I would debate each other. And I would always know what his argument was before he'd make it and he would know mine.
Alamdar Hamdani:And although I did not agree with Abe, I respected him. And I think that was important for me. He probably didn't like me. I didn't like him much, but I respected what he did. The reason I say that is when I became an AUSA, so you know what, my path was Eastern District Of Kentucky, five years at main justice at the Kenitansim section.
Alamdar Hamdani:And then I came back to Houston. When I came back to Houston to become an AUSA because I was I wanted to come back home to Texas. And, you know, being an AUSA, you're the tip of the spear. I've made justice. It's fun.
Alamdar Hamdani:And I was doing terrorism work twenty four seven, but I wanted to be the tip of the spear again in the courtroom. And so when I applied for the job to become an AUSA in Houston, Abe Martinez had risen to become the number two man in the office, the first assistant. And Abe was in my interview. And to his credit, Abe hired Of course, I was much different than I was many years before that when I was debating him in the private sector. Had at that point seven years of federal practice, five years of the counterterrorism section.
Alamdar Hamdani:Until he hired me to the National Security section. But the best part about that story is Abe and I would eventually teach a course for seven years at the University of Houston until he retired on counterterrorism. We co taught the course together. And and I think even to this and even when we taught it, I still learned from him. I may not always agree with him, but I was always learning from him.
Alamdar Hamdani:I say that to say, I think what helped me was I was curious, and I was curious about what Abe did. I was curious about what Abe did, and I was always respectful. Because of that, I I built these really good relationships on both sides. Jim Ho, I was curious about what he did. We didn't always agree politically, but I was respectful for what he did.
Alamdar Hamdani:Paul Greywell, all those folks. So when I threw my name in the hat to be the US attorney, it took all of those folks giving me advice, calling people on my behalf, writing letters. It took South Asian Bar Association and the Asian Bar Association of North America writing letters. Know, people I met at the Asian Bar Association and people I'd met before I went into public service and after. So it took a village for me to get this job, but it took everybody I'd met in those twenty some odd years.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I think, you know, if if anybody's listening to this, the one thing I would always say is be kind, be respectful no matter who you meet, stay curious as to what they do. Because if you do that, you never know it, but one day they'll become your biggest ally, and they may be the reason why you get what get get that next thing you need or want, and they'll be there for you. And so So and to finally put a fine point on it, I'm all to par when I did my investiture. So at my investiture, Jim Ho spoke and gave a speech. So did a guy named Anil Mujumdar.
Alamdar Hamdani:Anil Mujumdar is a professor at the University of Alabama, but Anil and I met when I was in the ACLU and he was the president of the ACLU of Alabama of all places. Aneel is half South Asian, half white. Aneel is about as far as maybe conservative as Jim is. Aneel is probably as far as as liberal as he is. But they both spoke at my investiture.
Alamdar Hamdani:Both were instrumental in me getting to this position. Every interview I had, I would get with Aneel and a couple of other buddies I had, and they would do the mood board and they would question me. We'd do mock interviews so that when I walked in, I was ready. And then she had Jim Ho, you had an email Jim down at my investiture. And then finally, Amol Tepar, the first South Asian swore me in, the fourth South Asian to be compressed as she appointed and Senate confirmed.
Alamdar Hamdani:So there was a nice, wonderful full circle moment at my investiture with Amol swearing me in, who's now, as you know, on the sixth Circuit Court of Appeals and oftentimes when a Republican is president on the shortlist of the Supreme Court. So.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I'm not one I think a trope is to complain about the next generation. This generation doesn't get this or that or whatever. But something I am struck with is that for your peers, I mean, I'm a couple things. One is these people you all mentioned are incredibly successful.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. Have had extraordinary success and perhaps not coincidentally, everyone was all tied together. Everyone was despite these significant political differences. So something I wonder if I don't have an answer for this, but I feel like maybe a perverse outcome of this community success for South Asian lawyers, let's say, is that South Asian lawyers maybe feel like they don't need that community as much anymore. And so I wonder, think, you know, the South Asian Bar Association National Conference is coming up.
Khurram Naik:I'll be there. I know a lot of people will be there and plenty of people won't be. And so I kind of wonder, you know, what would it take for people to I think plenty of times people who had good fortune or come into a system with some good fortune don't fully appreciate it. So I think the hard work of you and your peers has paid off because now you are the face of this of a very important part of our society and that is groundbreaking for other people to feel like, hey, I could do that too. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:And so I wonder how you get people to not be complacent. I'll also note that it can't be the case that everyone, you know, the people that you graduated law school with or other lawyers in your firm, you probably were exceptional in how much you invested in those relationships. So this is even like a common attitude period among any lawyers, but let's say among Southeastern lawyers, wonder how you can, instill in this coming generation that, has benefits that you didn't have, to double down and invest more in this community? Because there's more to be gained. The fact there's more of us means there's even more upside investing relationships.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, I'm curious to get your take on how to encourage that or facilitate that.
Alamdar Hamdani:So it has to come, the desire to invest in the community and desire to kind of invest in those relationships has to come organically and naturally. And I'll give you an example. In 02/2008, I had just become an AUSA in Kentucky, and I was finishing my term as the president of the South Asian Boys Association North America. And so come June 2008, I am done being the president. And let me tell you, I was done hanging out with brown people and I was just done.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so for a while, I just fell off the safe face of the earth and just did, focused on my growing family, focused on being a federal prosecutor, didn't go to NASABA conferences that much. I went a few more times, but then really stopped going, you know, a few years ago. And I think I needed that too. I needed to kind of be away from it a little bit. And so for those who don't show up or don't want to come, I get that.
Alamdar Hamdani:And think a part of it is and you've got to give yourself that space. But I'm glad I came back. Or I'm glad those I called up after several years of not talking to them, were kind enough to pick up the phone and say, Hey man, I still got your back. I got I'm gonna be there for you. But I think that happened because when I was investing in the relationship, we really invested in each other.
Alamdar Hamdani:We really you know, either you're part of something new, which is Saba, or, you know, you're building new levels of discourse, whether it's with me and Jim Ho, or it's a new mentor mentee relationship with me and a multipar, Paul Graywald. You know, you know, by the way, speaking of Graywald, who I know you've interviewed, you know, Graywald was also part of this that this fun, you know, early two thousands class of South Asian lawyers who are coming up. And so I do think it's it's it's it's and without commenting, it is interesting to see the the gray walls both battling it out against each other, which I think tells you a lot about the South Asian community and how it's grown within the legal world that you've got this, you know, two big rigs going on a big case, and they're both South Asians happen to be named Greywall. Am evidence So and the result of those relationships with South Asians and building those networks with Asian South Asians whites and all folks, bringing them into the tent. And so, know, again, when somebody's ready for it, it can really be helpful.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. I like that. And I understand there's there's phases of people's lives and and people now this, so that's totally fair. Well, you know, we talked about, you know, what are what your goals were for this for this podcast, and one of the things that you said you really wanna do was demystify the office. Yeah.
Khurram Naik:And because you said, hey. You know, wasn't I didn't meet a prosecutor some some years in a practice, and I I would like more people to understand what this office does, and so that's more attracts more people. And they also have an understanding about They're just more engaged with the office and understand what it does and its role in society. And I thought maybe a good place to start that is with the MAMA rule.
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So the MAMA rule. So my mother is 80 years old. She lives on a fixed income. She is an immigrant.
Alamdar Hamdani:She knows poverty. She is the people we protect in the Southern District Of Texas. So the Southern District Of Texas is made up of 44,000 square miles, 43 counties, 9,000,000 people, and it has 400 miles of border with Mexico. It is, I think, the fourth largest district of all the US attorney's offices. And just to kind of backtrack a little bit, the DOJ the DOJ is the Department of Justice, which began in 1870 as a result of African Americans who were being prejudiced by white supremacists, the Ku Klux Klan.
Alamdar Hamdani:It was created to go after those who were prejudicing African Americans in the wake of Reconstruction. So this organization has a long history with civil rights. It is, some say, the largest law firm in the world. Some say the oldest civil rights firm. So that's the DOJ.
Alamdar Hamdani:The DOJ is made up of the criminal division, the civil division, which does criminal work, civil work, the National Security Division where I worked for five years doing counterterrorism work, the solicitor general's office, the antitrust division. And then I said earlier, the tip of the spear, the tip of the spear, the people who are in the courtroom, those are really run by the US attorney's offices. And there are 94 US attorney's offices, 93 United States Attorneys, And Houston is the fourth largest of those 94 US attorney's offices. And so the work, the stuff you see on TV, the stuff you read about is mostly gonna be done by assistant United States attorneys and US attorneys offices. This office itself is two twenty assistant US attorneys, four zero seven employees.
Alamdar Hamdani:It is a big office. The MAMA rule says, first of all, I'm gonna run this office according to the mummer. And let's talk about the people we protect, the people like my mother. And if you look along the border, right, you've got human trafficking, human smuggling, drug trafficking, all those crimes along the border, usually driven by the cartel, they affect my mother, the migrants. My mother's neighborhood is falling apart in North Texas because of drug trafficking.
Alamdar Hamdani:I can see it happening. My mother's often the victim of the healthcare companies you'll find along the border and in Houston, healthcare fraud. The medical center is based here in Houston. Big corporations, when they commit fraud, they take money out of my mother's pocket. When you look at gun violence, I think gun violence is affecting especially marginalized neighborhoods like my mother's and the one I grew up The gang violence you see in the different parts of Houston or along the border.
Alamdar Hamdani:Those are in marginalized communities, usually communities of color, a community of color like my mother. And then when you look at public corruption, which I did also on top of national security, those officials, especially in this you take a corrupt public official in a small county, the money they take is really small. It's from a small pot and you're taking money literally out of the pocket of my people like my mother. And then I'm trying to protect the 9,000,000 people when it comes to national security issues. So we have Iran, China, Russia.
Alamdar Hamdani:I would say those are the biggest national security threats we have, along with traditional terrorism threats. But they're the big espionage, counterintelligence threats that face not only Houston, but the the entire district. So, you know, you've got white collar fraud. You've got IP thefts being stolen by nation state actors. You've got the cartel, which I would say is one of the biggest national security risks we have, constantly barraging us with drugs, violence, human smuggling.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so there's that part of the rule. The other part of the MAMA rule is I tell everybody in my office, not only do we protect people like my mother, but we're gonna treat each other like we treat our mother. So that means treat everybody with respect, being civil. The incivility I saw when I was a young lawyer will not be tolerated in this office. You will treat your fellow AUSAs, your fellow trial attorneys at Maine Justice, FBI agents, your agents around the country, police, defense counsel, all with that same respect.
Alamdar Hamdani:You know, when we walk into a courtroom, the judge holds us to a higher standard. There is this case, which I didn't know about till I became a prosecutor, called Sutherland versus I mean, Burger versus United States. And it's it's Justice Sutherland talks about the role of the prosecutor. And he says, a federal prosecutor may strike hard blows. In fact, is expected to do so, but he may not strike foul ones.
Alamdar Hamdani:We don't have the luxury of striking foul, balls. We have to always you know, the the duty of candor that we have to a court, I think, for every lawyer is there, but for us, it's paramount. It's what keeps the integrity of our system. So treat each other, treat everybody with the same respect as you would your mother, which means this Southern District Of Texas, this DOJ, it's a family for me, and I hope it's for the people who work for me.
Khurram Naik:So that's really I like the conciseness of that rule and how much it impacts and how much a guy's behavior. I guess I have a couple questions. One is, I think about you were mentioning prosecutorial discretion, which in my experience as a litigator, in my understanding of the office, such a powerful force. Yes. It's a power that is almost unlike any other in this society.
Khurram Naik:And so how do you balance the bottom up discretion of the AUSAs that you entrust in your office to exercise your judgment with top down goals that you have directives? Like, do you balance those two forces?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah. No. So one thing as prosecutors we all have to do is we follow the facts and the law, right? We follow both of those. It'll lead us to a point.
Alamdar Hamdani:And then the discretion really comes into play as to whether or not you choose to prosecute a particular case. So my priorities are all the things I just laid out as United States Attorney. They're also the priorities of Maine Justice. So as an AUSA, one thing you understand is you carry out the priorities of the department and of the office. Now, those priorities, like I said, should always be following the facts and the law and then using your discretion appropriately to do justice.
Alamdar Hamdani:What that means is if a prosecutor doesn't want to follow the priorities of the office, for example, doesn't want to prosecute a particular crime, even though the facts are there, the law says you should, there is a thing called the principles of federal prosecution, which all AUSAs go by. And in fact, Attorney General Merrick Garland was part of the first group that put that together when he was at Maine Justice in the seventies. But the principles of federal prosecution say, you know, you gotta prosecute a case that has a significant federal interest. So assume all those are there. If a prosecutor doesn't want to prosecute that case, then he's got he's got one choice.
Alamdar Hamdani:He's got two choices. Prosecute the case because that's the priorities of the office and everything dictates you should. And that's what we do, despite your own personal feelings about that particular kind of crime, or you quit. You can quit with your paycheck. And that's, I think we as prosecutors all know.
Alamdar Hamdani:If we're asked to do something we don't agree with, know, we can as long as it's not unethical or illegal or immoral, then we can always, you know, make our voice through our paycheck. And that's kind of the way it goes. Now, you know, I don't wanna make it seem like I'm just awful authoritarian who says you must do as I say because we are dictated. So I report to the deputy attorney general who is the number two person in the department. That's Lisa Monaco.
Alamdar Hamdani:And of course, she reports to Merrick Collins. So I have somebody I report to. So in the same vein, the priorities of this office should mirror the priorities of the department. But also, of course, take into account the particular issues of this district. This district, for example, does a lot more immigration crime than any other district is gonna do.
Alamdar Hamdani:This district is more prosecutors than any other district in the country because a lot of that is driven by the border. 80% of our cases are either border or border adjacent kind of issues from national security all the way down to an illegal alien reentry. So hopefully that answers the question. So you've got
Khurram Naik:financial but finite resources, and the range of aspects of society your office touches on is enormous. Yeah. How do you allocate resources? How do you these aren't apples to apples, you know, to say, how to compare human trafficking to multi state actor or nation state actors, you know, appropriating IP. How do you allocate resources among these, like, totally non fungible problems in sight or issues in society?
Khurram Naik:How do you figure out, hey, this is a priority or, you know, this is where we need to shift attention for some period of time and resources? Like, how do you allocate that?
Alamdar Hamdani:That's always a constant issue for me as a US attorney. So, you know, as one of the things I didn't have to worry about when I was in AUSA was any of that. And so coming in as the US attorney, this is something I've had to learn how to manage. How do I manage it? I manage it with a team of incredibly talented executives and managers and supervisors.
Alamdar Hamdani:I'm not constantly moving bodies around, but I am constantly aware and cognizant of the issues and how they're changing. For example, I'll tell you a big thing that I have focused on that I didn't know was a focus till I became the US attorney, but I see as one is gun trafficking. And this is something that's probably more unique to the Southern District Of Texas is trafficking of guns into Mexico. And because that fuels the work of the cartels and that fuels the deadly ways of the cartels, but also fuels the ability to do what they do, which is from smuggling to drug trafficking across the border into us. And so, you know, I have really taken that as a priority.
Alamdar Hamdani:So one of the things I'm making sure is when I hire new people, how can I make sure I beef up that part of the portfolio? Another thing I'm looking at, for example, PPP is fraud is huge right now. Would have been huge three years ago. It didn't exist, but now it's huge. And it sucks up so much of our resources, but we can't ignore those.
Alamdar Hamdani:Even those that are smaller dollar than the multi billion dollar things that maybe an STNY does, we've got to deal with them here. We've got a whole bunch of it. So I've got to allocate, I've got to figure out how can I move somebody who's ready for fraud? You can't be a new AUC, you can be more of a seasoned and put them in there. So it's a great question.
Alamdar Hamdani:It's one I'm constantly struggling with. Also, a lot of our cases, I worked with law enforcement, agents, and so they have limited resources as well. And so it's a it's a Rubik's Cube of trying to figure out how do I take what they have, understanding their different limitations, their priorities, match them up with mine so we can go after the bad guys. One thing we're doing right now is in Houston, we're going after gangs, gang violence in Houston. These are gangs that are in, you know, communities of color, mostly African American communities and Latino communities.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so one thing we have done is teamed up with Maine Justice to have them surge resources of AUSAs from other districts or trial attorneys to come in and help us build these cases, are big cases, and really kind of lower the murder rate. In Houston right now, the murder rate is five hundred a year. To give you some context, pre COVID, it was two twenty. So we really have a murder problem. And that doesn't even take into account all the people who survive because we have a vibrant medical center.
Alamdar Hamdani:So a lot of people get shot, survive. And so a lot of people get killed, get shot by surviving. So we've got violence that I think is much higher than it was before. And so I've got to figure out a way to of surge resources to kind of bring that down. So anyway, it's a great question and it's a constant puzzle.
Khurram Naik:Is there something causal about COVID and the pandemic that disrupted some social dynamics that you're making? What's the connection you draw?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah, I don't know. I think there is. I think there has to be in that you've got less people either working and at home, and that has a societal effect, which, may have caused the increase, for example, in violent crime that we see in parts of Houston. Put it this way, the world is certainly different than it was in 2019. In fact, it just it seems eons ago when I think of 2019.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, I agree. So with the the the range of crimes that you prosecuted, you already had, you know, exposure to a different set of crimes in the Eastern District Of Kentucky. So you get a sense of the kinds of range of of issues that an office prosecutes and the impact has on society. And because of course, you're in a different venue now and like you say, there's it's a different era. It's not apples to apples, but what has really changed your perspective on what's a more important issue than you ever realized?
Khurram Naik:Or what do you think people in our session understand is an underrated issue that you've observed from your vantage point that other people haven't had the ability to observe? Yeah.
Alamdar Hamdani:Two. One when I became actually, when I became the US attorney, I didn't fully appreciate, and I talked about it earlier, are the cartels, the Mexican cartels in my district. The Mexican cartels for both the Southern District and the Western District Of Texas, really, and to some extent, Eastern District Of Texas. They are, I believe, one of the biggest national security threats we have in The US. They don't care about lives.
Alamdar Hamdani:All they care about is money, profit. They will do anything and everything to make it happen. So human smuggling, big one. We are seeing an increasing amount of tractor trailers turning over and you see fifty, forty people dead in the back of a tractor trailer. The cartel hires some young kid, gives them a few $100 and says drive.
Alamdar Hamdani:And when the police show up, you drive faster, which means that truck's probably going to turn over. You see the cartels. What they do in Mexico is they've realized if they put fentanyl in drugs, it creates a much stronger addiction for the addict, a quicker high, and fentanyl, just enough on my fingertip can kill a human being. So that's a problem, number one. They also, when they're in the business of exporting normal drugs, Take for example, don't know, Adderall or whatever, whatever, you know, oxys.
Alamdar Hamdani:They're making them in the same facilities they're making the fentanyl laced products. So triple is that fentanyl is now going into pills of oxy or pills of Adderall. And so what happens is now what we're seeing are children dying, 14 year olds who are trying oxy for the first time die. And the cartel does all of that. But then the other big part of it is on the other spectrum is one thing I didn't focus on, but I think is white collar fraud in Houston.
Alamdar Hamdani:I think there's a lot of it. And it's one, I think, my office, whether it's the stealing of technologies. We've got academic institutions, we've medical facilities. You're seeing ransomware attacks on hospitals such that unless you give them money, patient information's gonna disappear or even worse, somebody's gonna die unless you give them the money. Hospitals lose power, for example.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so one thing I'm trying to battle is how do I, first of all, get the hospital or the corporation to report it? They're scared to report it. They're scared if they report it, it's going to get worse for them. And then secondly, how do we have agents in AUSA smart enough? This is really hard stuff to figure out, to do this work.
Alamdar Hamdani:I mean, this is cutting edge, you know, technologies. How do you put it together and how do you go after not only the bad actors that are domestic but international as well? So those are, I think, you know, things I think did not definitely didn't exist in the Eastern District Of Kentucky for me. But, I think, you know, really take up a lot of space when it comes to kind of understanding the complexities of trying to fix them.
Khurram Naik:Yeah, that's remarkable. I think when I hear this, mean, you're making me want to become an AUSA. It's just the kind of work that you do, and it just is so fascinating and it sounds very rewarding, you know, the chase and break things down because, you know, when you get a when you work at a big firm, you know, you're given, you know, a matter to work on, it's there's meets and bounds to it, you know? Maybe you'll find something you'll discover something fascinating or pull a thread that'll lead to something interesting. That happens and it's happened to me, but it's a much shorter thread.
Khurram Naik:And so I think that's fascinating to hear. Also, I'm curious on a national level because I imagine the 93 US attorneys have a dialogue and exchange information, what's your view on trends nationally in enforcement? So what are trends you're observing that lawyers listening to this should be attuned into and thinking about in advising their clients or protecting their clients from heading down the wrong direction? What are the trends you're seeing nationally?
Alamdar Hamdani:Yeah, so I'll kind of give you some insight into how US attorneys kind of like at the US Attorney level, how we operate. So within the DOJ, there is the Attorney General's Advisory Committee, which consists of about 12 US Attorneys, all presidentially appointed Senate confirmed because there are some US Attorneys who, for whatever reason, they're either acting US attorneys that are appointed by the court because the Senate hasn't confirmed the US attorney for that particular district. So usually all the US Attorneys on the AGAC, if I'm correct, usually presidentially appointed Senate, or maybe there's a couple that aren't, but I think And then within the AGAC, in which I've been a part of, there were subcommittees. And so I serve on subcommittees, and that's where policy is made within DOJ. And that kind of sets the priorities of the department along with what the attorney general sets down as priorities through the DAG.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I serve on the white collar subcommittee. I serve on the national security subcommittee. I serve on the border immigration subcommittee, which I vice chair. And I'm also on the there's one more committee, oh, the control of substances, which is drugs. So from my perspective, looking at that, I see that one of the biggest trends I'm seeing is, first of all, on the corporate fraud side.
Alamdar Hamdani:So, one of the things that you're seeing, hopefully, I want to say this, hopefully we can get more corporations to come and self report as to kind of what they're seeing. And so we've, you know, we've instituted new ways to kind of entice corporations to do that because what we're seeing is, you know, corporations kind of want some sort of comfort level that says, if I come in and self report, will I get something for that? And so there's a policy called voluntary self disclosure that's been put in place to to help do that both not only on the domestic side, but also on the FCPA side. So, you know, one thing I'm seeing a lot of growing trend is indeed is an FCPA work. And, you know, you're seeing some case law coming out that's actually that's more favorable to defense than to the to the government on the FCPA side, making it a little more difficult for us to do our jobs.
Alamdar Hamdani:But the more international our community gets, the more FCPA work we get and the more other countries don't care about corrupt practices, the more we're kind of seeing that as well. So you've got that. On the national security front, I can tell you a big thing we're seeing is what we call disruptive technologies. So take, for example, technologies to create weapons for the Russians to attack Ukraine. That technology, oftentimes, if you were to get it, has American components in it.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so right now, there is a target to go after those to go after to kind of go after those who are giving those parts to nation state actors like the Russians. The Russians, what they will do is they will use shell companies to actually purchase the company that makes the product. And sometimes the company may not know that they're being owned by a Russian shell company so they can get that. So that's one thing we're really focusing on. In the same vein, China is really good at stealing IP, whether it's through cyber methods or whether it's through recruiting scientists to come over into China and give the IP.
Alamdar Hamdani:But they're really good at stealing the IP and then reverse engineering it. And so that's another big part of the disruptive technology. So everything from nanotechnology issues, technology that make rockets go up in the air, technologies that power generative AI issues, all that's gonna be something we as a department are gonna focus on. We're gonna focus on making sure those technologies aren't getting into the wrong hands. Houston is a big part of that.
Alamdar Hamdani:Houston, again, its huge medical complex, huge research facilities, huge universities, and large corporations, oil and gas corporations that do a lot of work, especially with Russia, We're gonna be I know my people are focused, and so are the agencies on making sure we disrupt any of those crimes. Does that kind of give you an idea?
Khurram Naik:Yeah. That's very helpful. So in these subcommittees, are you in any way an advocate? Are you advocating for? I believe this should be bumped up and I think it should be a higher priority or you specifically, are you in that capacity?
Khurram Naik:I am. Okay.
Alamdar Hamdani:I am. I am. So
Khurram Naik:you just describe all the things. Are you describing things that you've been advocating for or you've observed? So both. So it's
Alamdar Hamdani:both what the department is advocating for and myself as well. And I think because of my national security background, I'm able to speak a little bit more intelligently about, for example, disruptive technologies and nation state actors. And so because of that, I can be kind of a better advocate than maybe somebody doesn't have my background. Yeah, no, no. I'm so one of the things I'm doing as the US attorney to demystify is really I'm trying to get out there in the community.
Alamdar Hamdani:This what we're doing now, you know, when you called me up and asked me, you know, you had me at hello because I think it's I what you do is provide an incredible service to those. I am not as dynamic nor as smart as speakers could be, but what I can do is at least give some insight into what the US attorney does. But no, so I'm always out there either traveling or part of the community just trying to share more about what we do. What are
Khurram Naik:you optimistic about in the coming year, let's say on a twelve month time horizon, from either your office or the legal communities you're a part of? What are you optimistic about?
Alamdar Hamdani:A couple of things. So first of all, one thing I have seen that's encouraging along the border is as it relates to So there's a thing called Title 42, which was this thing that went away. Let's just call it that. It went away in May. And when it went away, everybody was afraid that there was gonna be a surge of migrants coming across the border trying to get in.
Alamdar Hamdani:There hasn't been. In fact, I've seen a downtick in the amount of migrants coming across the border and I'm hopeful. What I'm optimistic about is that will continue. Why is that important? When migrants come across any part except a legal port of entry, And if you go down to Laredo right now or McAllen, it's 118 degrees on the border.
Alamdar Hamdani:When they come across that border and they're crossing ranch land or they're trying to traverse the Rio Grande Valley, Rio Grande River. They are putting themselves and their families at danger when they get into the back of a massive truck and pay the cartel a few thousand bucks to get all their life savings to get across that border and putting their families at risk. The fact that I'm seeing less of that, I think is a great thing, not only for our immigration system, which I think we all would agree, whether legislatively or whether through more bodies needs help. It's a delicate fabric at times when it comes to how many people have got in detention, how many people are here without status, how many people are being detained for years, the less people that come in through illegal means or without going to the port of entry, the safer I think our communities are in general, including those who are migrants. So that I am optimistic about.
Alamdar Hamdani:It doesn't mean I take my foot off the pedal when it comes to making sure I've got the resources on the ground to deal with those who especially come into The US, commit crimes, then get kicked out, then try to come back again. We will always seek to deport or go after the human smugglers. That's one thing I'm optimistic about. The second thing I think I'm optimistic about hopefully is, you know, on the domestic terrorism front, I am hopeful, although I don't know, I'm hopeful that hopefully the temperature when it comes to, rhetoric gets tamped down such that we see less domestic terrorism, less domestic violence happening as a result of people's political views. I'm hopeful for that.
Alamdar Hamdani:You know, I am a guy who went after terrorists internationally. I always think that's always gonna be a huge threat to our nation, along with those who wanna take away our technologies or harm us using spies and illegal means. But I'm hopeful maybe that the temperature will be tamped down. I don't know. I mean, 2024 will, I think, will say a lot.
Alamdar Hamdani:So we'll see. We'll see. Maybe I'm being a little too Pollyanna ish about that. We'll find out. But either way, I always have the resources there, you know?
Alamdar Hamdani:So, but anyway, hopefully that gives you some ideas.
Khurram Naik:Yeah. And look. You you you do have this very demanding job, and, you know, these are weighty issues you're talking about that are that are on your mind. And so, I read a a little profile of you in swimmer magazine.
Alamdar Hamdani:Oh, yeah.
Khurram Naik:I got the title wrong maybe, but tell me about what took you to swimming, what you love about it, and what's your routine? Sure. So took me
Alamdar Hamdani:to swimming is I was a runner, I got injured. I was running about 90 miles a week, you know, during marathons.
Khurram Naik:Too much.
Alamdar Hamdani:Too much. Right? On a 40 year old at that time, 40 year old body, 40 year old body. So I finally, you know, really got injured, messed up my knee. And so my kids were swimming, age group swimming at the time.
Alamdar Hamdani:This is now eight years ago when they were age group swimming with a club team. And I never took them to meet. So I was like, Ah, I don't see the point. But I was like, I need a sport. When you're running 90 miles a week, you're obsessive about something.
Alamdar Hamdani:There's something broken inside of you that needs a fix. And so I joined the masters team of my kids' swimming club team. And it was phenomenal. First of all, I was able to keep my suits to the size they were. I was able to kind of stay fit.
Alamdar Hamdani:I got fast, but more importantly, I really just found a new community of friends. When you're swimming, you're in lanes, but you swim with people, hopefully, your speed, but you see people who are faster and slower alongside you. You get to know them. And I started taking my kids to swim meets. Next thing you know, they became really good age group swimmers themselves.
Alamdar Hamdani:And it was all a blessing in disguise for me to get injured. And so now my son's gonna run track and cross country at the University of Texas, which I don't think he would have done had he not been a great athlete from swimming. He certainly became a runner because I loved running. And it was the one thing I could teach him how to do. And my daughter too is an incredibly gifted runner, but also a good swimmer.
Alamdar Hamdani:I myself, even this morning, ran. So my routine is I ran this morning, got up, ran about five and a half miles, went to the weight room and then hit the pool for about half an hour. And then sometimes it's an hour and a half depending on how much time I have. But it's one thing in this position, it's become increasingly more difficult, but it is part of my routine is to to swim or run at least every day.
Khurram Naik:That sounds like a hell of a hell of a workout routine, so I got to get on your level. Yeah. As an activity, how does swimming compare to running? Mean, running can be individual, be social. Swimming can be individual, maybe a little more social because necessarily you're all in this pool together.
Khurram Naik:And then just the action itself is, there's something meditative to both of them, but they're a little bit different. So how do the two compare for you?
Alamdar Hamdani:Oh, mean, for sure, running is a lot more fun and swimming in that is more to see. Right? It's a lot more I don't know if it's fun. Maybe it's more engaging a little bit. When you're in the pool, your life is in 25 meter increments and flip turns another 25 meters.
Alamdar Hamdani:And so it's a little different and your rest is a lot shorter when swim. So when I ran this morning, it was 82 degrees, 90% humidity. Was awful. But I had everything to keep me busy. I'll tell you, one of my great So one of the great things about working for The United States is I got to go to Europe on the State Department's dime when I was at the counterterrorism section for ten days.
Alamdar Hamdani:We covered six countries in ten days. I went to Germany, France, Belgium, Sweden, a couple of other countries, Denmark. And I ran a 100 miles in those ten days. And so I got to see parts of Europe I never would have seen, right? I got to see the River at 06:00 in the morning as the sun's coming up over the Rotterdam.
Alamdar Hamdani:So I think definitely running has provided me more stimulation.
Khurram Naik:Okay. I haven't had any interest in running in a long time, but you've just bumped up my interest in running just now.
Alamdar Hamdani:There you go.
Khurram Naik:Well, I think we covered a lot.
Alamdar Hamdani:You
Khurram Naik:did. A super interesting story about your trajectory and what's led to you, what are the things, the impulses that have propelled you forward. So So really appreciate you taking the time to share your story here.
Alamdar Hamdani:Thank you, Coram, and thank you so much for doing this and for having me on, It's been a pleasure talking about all this stuff and getting to know you a little bit better. Thanks. Thanks, Buddy.