WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330 author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land. 00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889 Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139 thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999 I have a request. 00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009 If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319 It really helps us get this work done. 00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299 As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad. 00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645 And over the last 20 years, we've developed several 00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285 equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs. 00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485 If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning. 00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814 com. 00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665 So without further ado, let's meet today's guest. 00:00:44.419 --> 00:00:47.379 Welcome back to Equine Assisted World, Betsy. 00:00:47.379 --> 00:00:54.129 Carl, who is joining me today, is an old, old, old compadre. 00:00:54.619 --> 00:01:02.519 We used to run new trails together our ranch in Texas, and we couldn't 00:01:02.519 --> 00:01:03.779 have done it without Betsy. 00:01:03.779 --> 00:01:04.679 Betsy was 00:01:07.320 --> 00:01:15.270 the mainstay, the rudder, the lifeblood, the, you know, all the good things. 00:01:15.449 --> 00:01:21.939 And one of the reasons why Betsy was all these things was not just her 00:01:21.969 --> 00:01:29.079 knowledge of horses, but the fact that she had come a really interesting path 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:32.739 through path, what used to be nara. 00:01:33.369 --> 00:01:36.579 She's a senior path instructor, which. 00:01:36.984 --> 00:01:42.894 Was interesting for us because people normally see horse boy as the sort of 00:01:42.894 --> 00:01:47.934 antithesis the opposite of path, and in some ways that's not unfounded. 00:01:48.554 --> 00:01:56.395 And at the same time as working with us, she continued to work at the local large 00:01:56.395 --> 00:02:04.375 path center in Austin, Texas, not just as a service provider, but also as a 00:02:04.375 --> 00:02:07.164 senior instructor in the PATH trainings. 00:02:07.375 --> 00:02:10.704 So it was very interesting that she really bridged that gap. 00:02:11.545 --> 00:02:14.215 She's also very accomplished, dressage rider and trainer 00:02:14.845 --> 00:02:17.035 and all round horse person. 00:02:17.815 --> 00:02:22.655 So if you look up the word awesome in the dictionary you actually find a picture 00:02:22.655 --> 00:02:25.255 of Betsy next to that next to that word. 00:02:25.765 --> 00:02:27.445 So, Betsy, thanks for coming on. 00:02:27.505 --> 00:02:30.954 You now live in Bend, Oregon doing interesting things in the Rockies. 00:02:32.515 --> 00:02:33.774 Thanks for coming on the show. 00:02:33.865 --> 00:02:40.375 I, I want to delve into your knowledge of where you feel equine 00:02:40.375 --> 00:02:45.954 assisted work was when you first got into it, where you feel it is now 00:02:45.954 --> 00:02:47.755 and where you would like it to go. 00:02:48.635 --> 00:02:49.925 So over to you. 00:02:51.230 --> 00:02:52.340 Betsy Kahl: Well, thank you. 00:02:52.640 --> 00:02:56.180 Yeah, it's been a fun journey the time I've shared with you and the 00:02:56.180 --> 00:02:57.950 time we had in Texas together. 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.960 And yeah, for, for PATH people who may be listening. 00:03:02.180 --> 00:03:07.460 I'm an advanced therapeutic writing instructor with the CTRI certification 00:03:07.460 --> 00:03:11.730 as well, so we've been going through quite a lot of acronyms and other 00:03:11.730 --> 00:03:14.640 things in the, in the industry. 00:03:14.640 --> 00:03:18.680 But yes so for those who care about letters after names, 00:03:18.740 --> 00:03:19.760 that's what it would be. 00:03:19.860 --> 00:03:30.510 And I believe I was certified, oh, lordy, back in like 2007. 00:03:31.140 --> 00:03:32.070 2006. 00:03:32.070 --> 00:03:32.880 2006. 00:03:32.880 --> 00:03:33.810 Sounds about right. 00:03:34.130 --> 00:03:37.760 And so it's been quite some time that I've, I've carried that. 00:03:38.525 --> 00:03:42.095 Certification and worked in and out and in and out of the 00:03:42.095 --> 00:03:43.715 industry as people often do. 00:03:44.105 --> 00:03:49.205 So I'm not sure where, how much you want to know or where you wanna 00:03:49.205 --> 00:03:50.735 start with any of that, but I could, 00:03:50.735 --> 00:03:52.655 Rupert Isaacson: I think what I'd like you to do is shoot from the hip. 00:03:53.255 --> 00:03:53.735 Okay. 00:03:53.735 --> 00:03:58.115 You, you, because you have a really good overview of 00:04:00.335 --> 00:04:07.985 what's good about each system where they probably have more in common 00:04:08.015 --> 00:04:09.185 than they might think they do. 00:04:09.250 --> 00:04:09.670 Mm-hmm. 00:04:12.245 --> 00:04:18.335 And you yourself have had to tread the line of melding, you know, the different 00:04:18.335 --> 00:04:25.685 methodologies together, whether it was working, you know, in a path context, 00:04:26.495 --> 00:04:32.075 but informed by horse, boys say, or tacking, which you also helped me. 00:04:32.625 --> 00:04:34.185 Develop, which we should go into. 00:04:34.695 --> 00:04:42.775 And the other way around, you know, working in horse Boy and, but informed by, 00:04:44.965 --> 00:04:49.465 I guess, the orthodoxy of the mainstream as, as well as being on the edge. 00:04:49.495 --> 00:04:53.335 It, it's a really interesting, I, I, I dunno, anyone else really who's tro Yeah. 00:04:53.935 --> 00:04:57.415 That path, you know, so I, I, I think it's really over to you. 00:04:57.415 --> 00:04:59.365 I, I'd like you to sort of fire Okay. 00:05:00.025 --> 00:05:03.565 Talk about what was good, what was bad, what you'd like to see change, 00:05:03.565 --> 00:05:05.725 what you'd like to develop more of. 00:05:06.085 --> 00:05:06.595 Just go. 00:05:06.715 --> 00:05:07.915 Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm. 00:05:07.921 --> 00:05:08.010 Okay. 00:05:08.545 --> 00:05:12.465 Well, one thing that came to mind as you were talking was, obviously 00:05:12.465 --> 00:05:16.365 I didn't well, not obviously but I didn't just, you know, one day be 00:05:16.365 --> 00:05:18.375 like, oh, I wanna be a path instructor. 00:05:18.375 --> 00:05:24.115 So I was very fortunate growing up to, we had a a in the public 00:05:24.115 --> 00:05:27.034 park system near where I lived. 00:05:27.364 --> 00:05:32.714 There was a riding facility that was part of a nonprofit park system 00:05:32.714 --> 00:05:37.634 and offered riding lessons, boarding and also therapeutic riding. 00:05:37.634 --> 00:05:41.474 So, I grew up riding there, starting around age 12. 00:05:41.474 --> 00:05:45.794 And so the horses that I learned to ride on were all 00:05:46.034 --> 00:05:49.424 exceptionally talented, very kind. 00:05:49.704 --> 00:05:53.634 Some, maybe not as kind, but all just generous horses that could 00:05:53.634 --> 00:05:55.164 walk, trot, canner, and jump. 00:05:55.224 --> 00:05:58.374 And these were the horses that would one day a week also work 00:05:58.374 --> 00:05:59.874 in adaptive riding as well. 00:06:00.684 --> 00:06:01.494 When they offered it. 00:06:01.494 --> 00:06:11.994 So I think even just growing up there and seeing it was sort of a normal 00:06:12.024 --> 00:06:16.224 thing that your horses that would work in therapeutic programs, could also 00:06:16.224 --> 00:06:20.514 teach, could also compete in local shows, could also do all of the things. 00:06:20.514 --> 00:06:20.934 Right. 00:06:21.354 --> 00:06:21.804 And yeah, it 00:06:21.804 --> 00:06:23.154 Rupert Isaacson: wasn't niche from the get go. 00:06:23.154 --> 00:06:24.474 Betsy Kahl: No, no. 00:06:24.474 --> 00:06:29.754 And it was a thing that as I've worked in different programs and 00:06:29.754 --> 00:06:34.294 different places and kind of traveled from I've taught from New Hampshire 00:06:34.414 --> 00:06:38.224 to Ohio, Texas, and now Oregon. 00:06:38.284 --> 00:06:41.854 So I mean, as you kind of move across the country you start 00:06:41.854 --> 00:06:43.294 to see different things of. 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:46.939 What is and is not sort of the assumed normal. 00:06:47.239 --> 00:06:50.619 And and so I started to realize like, oh, well this is unique. 00:06:50.619 --> 00:06:51.159 You know what? 00:06:51.159 --> 00:06:55.179 Valley riding, which is still hands down, I say one of the best places to learn. 00:06:55.239 --> 00:06:55.984 And so Valley 00:06:56.004 --> 00:06:56.424 Rupert Isaacson: Riding, 00:06:56.524 --> 00:06:58.389 Betsy Kahl: valley Riding Incorporated. 00:06:58.389 --> 00:06:58.899 Yeah. 00:06:59.099 --> 00:06:59.819 It's run by Valley 00:06:59.909 --> 00:07:02.129 Rupert Isaacson: Riding Incorporated in Cleveland, Ohio. 00:07:02.219 --> 00:07:02.669 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 00:07:02.729 --> 00:07:03.119 Yeah. 00:07:03.119 --> 00:07:07.079 Anyone who's looking to learn to ride or if you have kids that wanna ride go there. 00:07:07.079 --> 00:07:08.009 Bus horses. 00:07:08.009 --> 00:07:08.039 Okay. 00:07:08.309 --> 00:07:10.799 Actually one horse that when I was teaching there. 00:07:11.119 --> 00:07:15.169 Is still, I found him for the program and he's still in the program, 00:07:15.229 --> 00:07:16.609 this little pony named bumper. 00:07:16.669 --> 00:07:17.869 I mean, gotta love him. 00:07:18.139 --> 00:07:20.149 So, and bumper was Mr. 00:07:20.149 --> 00:07:23.089 Jack of all trades too, you know, walk, trot, can or JUMP 00:07:23.089 --> 00:07:25.399 did Adaptive, did all the things. 00:07:25.589 --> 00:07:28.229 And I apparently still is doing all those things. 00:07:28.479 --> 00:07:33.099 So, so yeah, it was, it was just very normal to, to believe 00:07:33.099 --> 00:07:34.509 a horse could do all of that. 00:07:34.599 --> 00:07:38.219 And not every horse wanted to work in the adaptive program or, 00:07:38.249 --> 00:07:40.109 but that was fine too, right? 00:07:40.109 --> 00:07:42.779 They all had a place, they all had their purpose. 00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:47.519 And so that I think was where that. 00:07:49.489 --> 00:07:51.799 Idea of like, yeah, a horse is not limited. 00:07:52.309 --> 00:07:52.399 Like 00:07:52.879 --> 00:07:53.089 Rupert Isaacson: there 00:07:53.089 --> 00:07:57.619 Betsy Kahl: actually will, if you offer the right support and the right 00:07:57.619 --> 00:08:00.049 timing, like will want to show up. 00:08:00.209 --> 00:08:04.919 They want to work and feel good about their jobs and so 00:08:05.129 --> 00:08:06.869 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, they enjoy variety like a human does, 00:08:06.869 --> 00:08:07.139 Betsy Kahl: basically. 00:08:07.144 --> 00:08:08.189 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:08:08.189 --> 00:08:11.879 You know, and again, because it was in a public park system, you know, there 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.229 were trails so you could easily just go out from the arena down the trail. 00:08:16.589 --> 00:08:21.719 You know, you had all, all the bonuses that come with a public park system, 00:08:21.719 --> 00:08:24.719 like, you know, you never knew what would be around the corner sometimes or 00:08:25.499 --> 00:08:25.964 Rupert Isaacson: would be 00:08:26.234 --> 00:08:27.569 Betsy Kahl: hanging over the fence. 00:08:27.569 --> 00:08:29.589 But but yeah, it was, it was lovely. 00:08:29.949 --> 00:08:31.559 And so. 00:08:32.249 --> 00:08:35.099 So that's where I first encountered adaptive writing too, is when they 00:08:35.099 --> 00:08:36.899 started offering that program. 00:08:36.899 --> 00:08:40.679 I started volunteering 'cause I was probably, you know, 14 is the age where 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:42.539 path allows you to start to volunteer. 00:08:43.019 --> 00:08:49.729 And and that's how I became exposed to it and always enjoyed it, but didn't 00:08:50.029 --> 00:08:52.009 go after, pursue that in college. 00:08:52.009 --> 00:08:57.379 So there was a brief, so I guess from like 12 to 18 I did nothing but eat, sleep, 00:08:57.379 --> 00:09:00.079 breathe horses while maintaining grades. 00:09:00.079 --> 00:09:01.579 So I could continue doing that. 00:09:01.849 --> 00:09:06.289 And then went off to college, was out of horses for a while and I 00:09:06.319 --> 00:09:15.309 think probably started getting back into it around like 24 ish and just 00:09:15.309 --> 00:09:16.839 go back into taking riding lessons. 00:09:16.839 --> 00:09:20.269 And then I went, decided I wanted to pursue getting certified. 00:09:20.269 --> 00:09:23.729 And so I went to get certified at a place in New Hampshire. 00:09:23.999 --> 00:09:28.929 They did like a three month instructor intensive, I suppose. 00:09:29.259 --> 00:09:33.689 And also a place though where their horses worked in summer camps, would 00:09:33.689 --> 00:09:35.789 walk, trot, can, or jump, you know. 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:40.449 So they were also horses that in addition to doing adaptive 00:09:40.449 --> 00:09:45.919 riding, could do a variety of other programming and so yeah, was at 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.109 horsepower in Temple, New Hampshire. 00:09:48.109 --> 00:09:50.179 And that's where I found my current horse. 00:09:50.239 --> 00:09:51.679 One of my current horse is Stewart. 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:57.209 He was there as a I don't even know what sail, sail horse. 00:09:57.209 --> 00:10:00.240 So I took him on as my training project while I was getting certified. 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:03.060 'cause that was something their program had you do as well was 00:10:03.060 --> 00:10:06.870 like not just go through the. 00:10:07.245 --> 00:10:12.855 Technical aspect of teaching and how you're supposed to structure a class 00:10:12.855 --> 00:10:17.685 and all the, you know, safety standards that are very important as well. 00:10:17.685 --> 00:10:22.695 But in addition to that, they wanted to make sure that you were teaching 00:10:22.695 --> 00:10:27.015 riding lessons to, at least for me, I was teaching lessons to the public 00:10:27.015 --> 00:10:31.035 and also had your horse training project too, so that, you know, 00:10:31.035 --> 00:10:33.795 depending on what you could offer, that you were bringing a horse along. 00:10:33.795 --> 00:10:40.905 So Stewart was my, my training project that ended up becoming my forever project. 00:10:41.415 --> 00:10:48.015 So, so, so I think, yeah, I, yeah, there might be some things in there. 00:10:48.015 --> 00:10:48.435 You wanna, 00:10:48.435 --> 00:10:49.515 Rupert Isaacson: well, the, the, the, I think there's 00:10:49.515 --> 00:10:50.110 something that we should just. 00:10:50.745 --> 00:10:53.385 Quickly cover, which is that what you did at college? 00:10:53.595 --> 00:10:54.795 So you're a social worker? 00:10:55.305 --> 00:10:56.685 Betsy Kahl: Well, not in college. 00:10:57.160 --> 00:10:57.450 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:10:57.450 --> 00:10:57.770 Right. 00:10:57.910 --> 00:10:58.130 So, 00:10:58.390 --> 00:11:00.465 Betsy Kahl: so I had a Yeah. 00:11:00.525 --> 00:11:03.285 But I currently am a social worker and Yeah. 00:11:03.315 --> 00:11:04.305 Which I think massively 00:11:04.305 --> 00:11:06.495 Rupert Isaacson: informs your equine assisted stuff. 00:11:06.495 --> 00:11:08.985 So just talk through what you did at college and how you became a 00:11:08.985 --> 00:11:13.605 social worker, and then how that informed what you did with horses. 00:11:14.025 --> 00:11:14.625 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 00:11:14.785 --> 00:11:20.545 In college, oh, I thought I wanted to do pre veterinary medicine. 00:11:20.545 --> 00:11:24.745 I quickly realized that was not for me. 00:11:24.845 --> 00:11:28.325 Perhaps I was not up for the academic rigor, we can put it that way. 00:11:28.625 --> 00:11:33.305 And then did a semester in business and then changed to English and 00:11:33.305 --> 00:11:34.715 ended up with a degree in English. 00:11:35.045 --> 00:11:44.885 And so post-college, I just dabbled around in theater arts for about a year. 00:11:45.300 --> 00:11:49.710 Cleaned horse stalls for part of that time too, and a year after my mom said, 00:11:49.710 --> 00:11:51.090 what are you doing with your life? 00:11:51.330 --> 00:11:53.730 You need to get, get it together. 00:11:53.980 --> 00:11:54.130 Sounds 00:11:54.130 --> 00:11:54.760 Rupert Isaacson: like fun to me. 00:11:54.760 --> 00:11:55.180 I dunno. 00:11:55.310 --> 00:11:56.840 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, it was fun. 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:03.230 You know, I, I love the theater arts and has, that's been a huge, it's 00:12:03.230 --> 00:12:07.520 had a very healing place in my life. 00:12:07.850 --> 00:12:08.030 Mm-hmm. 00:12:08.270 --> 00:12:10.260 And and so, so yeah. 00:12:10.290 --> 00:12:15.470 But my mom was concerned that I would just be doing shows and 00:12:15.800 --> 00:12:17.780 serving tables and cleaning stalls. 00:12:17.780 --> 00:12:19.820 And so she's like, what are you gonna do? 00:12:20.180 --> 00:12:24.440 And I didn't know what one did with the degree in English besides perhaps teach. 00:12:24.680 --> 00:12:29.420 And so I then entered a Master's in Secondary Education program. 00:12:29.670 --> 00:12:31.050 I was in that for about. 00:12:31.710 --> 00:12:35.730 Eight months of the year that would it take to complete before I dropped 00:12:35.730 --> 00:12:38.140 out for a variety of reasons. 00:12:38.140 --> 00:12:43.190 But then then yeah, I was back into just theater, picking up 00:12:43.190 --> 00:12:46.550 random teaching theater arts jobs. 00:12:46.920 --> 00:12:51.420 Eventually that led to the Great Lakes Theater Festival School 00:12:51.630 --> 00:12:54.270 Actor Teacher Residency program. 00:12:54.270 --> 00:12:58.680 So for two years I traveled with another actor and we taught Shakespeare 00:12:58.680 --> 00:13:02.340 in the schools and stage combat and a bunch of other things, as well 00:13:02.340 --> 00:13:04.110 as other classic theater pieces. 00:13:04.380 --> 00:13:11.470 And then that after that was when I was like, what do I wanna really do now? 00:13:12.190 --> 00:13:15.670 And that's when I went and trained to be a therapeutic riding instructor, 00:13:17.350 --> 00:13:21.730 was certified at the advanced level after that program in New Hampshire. 00:13:22.390 --> 00:13:28.520 Got my first job at a path center with my first horse was hemorrhaging money paying 00:13:28.520 --> 00:13:31.370 for board and trying to survive on that. 00:13:31.910 --> 00:13:35.840 Some other gigs came my way. 00:13:37.010 --> 00:13:42.620 I got a three week stint on a cruise ship being a magician's assistant. 00:13:42.680 --> 00:13:47.700 And then another three weeks doing a opening act for a show in Vegas. 00:13:49.830 --> 00:13:55.200 And so during that time, like I lost that first job at the Path Center 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:58.560 due to some conflicts, but while I was on the cruise ship, got the job 00:13:58.560 --> 00:14:04.230 offer to become the riding instructor at Valley Ridings Breville stables. 00:14:05.130 --> 00:14:06.240 So did that. 00:14:06.975 --> 00:14:11.575 So then finally got a full-time job where I could afford to live, have my 00:14:11.575 --> 00:14:15.785 horse, and was teaching public riding lessons and volunteer coordinating 00:14:15.785 --> 00:14:17.345 for their therapeutic riding. 00:14:17.765 --> 00:14:23.965 And then about 2, 2, 3 years into that was when I started to 00:14:23.965 --> 00:14:26.275 question, okay, what is next? 00:14:26.275 --> 00:14:30.265 And realizing that a lot of what I was seeing in adaptive writing to ended up 00:14:30.265 --> 00:14:38.635 being more social, emotional, behavioral health, and as well as showing up 00:14:38.725 --> 00:14:45.235 sometimes in my public writing lessons too and in different degrees and just working. 00:14:47.095 --> 00:14:49.615 Being more supportive for people who were bringing their own 00:14:49.615 --> 00:14:52.675 anxieties or things to, to lessons. 00:14:52.675 --> 00:14:56.315 And you know, the mental health field was not too foreign to me. 00:14:56.315 --> 00:15:00.455 My dad was a psychiatrist, so it's sort of something that I had always been aware 00:15:00.455 --> 00:15:03.155 of, but not necessarily social work. 00:15:03.515 --> 00:15:10.685 And so I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but knew something mental healthy. 00:15:11.105 --> 00:15:17.425 I went to volunteer at an organization called The Gathering Place in Cleveland, 00:15:17.425 --> 00:15:23.685 which offers, free support for individuals, families, and friends who 00:15:23.685 --> 00:15:25.395 whose lives have been touched by cancer. 00:15:25.755 --> 00:15:27.765 'cause that's something that's very important to me. 00:15:28.105 --> 00:15:32.215 And at that volunteer interview, ended up getting me a job as 00:15:32.215 --> 00:15:33.835 their animal camp coordinator. 00:15:33.835 --> 00:15:36.725 They were doing a summer camp where they partner with a 00:15:36.725 --> 00:15:38.225 variety of different animals. 00:15:38.255 --> 00:15:42.335 One week being horse week, but other weeks being different animals 00:15:42.335 --> 00:15:47.905 from puppies to kittens to wild animals through the natural history, 00:15:47.965 --> 00:15:49.855 rehabilitate, rehabilitation. 00:15:50.215 --> 00:15:57.375 And so that program was run by a social worker and a child life specialist. 00:15:57.375 --> 00:16:01.035 I think also, oh man, was she also a social worker? 00:16:01.065 --> 00:16:01.605 I'm not sure. 00:16:01.935 --> 00:16:09.215 But but anyways, those two women were phenomenally impactful in this 00:16:09.215 --> 00:16:11.525 idea of, wow, okay, we can take. 00:16:12.950 --> 00:16:19.200 Mental health, but not make it a drudgery, not drudgery is a strong word. 00:16:19.280 --> 00:16:20.690 Make it, make it enjoyable. 00:16:20.690 --> 00:16:20.960 Right. 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:23.480 Not make it feel so clinical. 00:16:23.510 --> 00:16:23.990 Right. 00:16:24.020 --> 00:16:29.660 And that we can do it in a variety of environments and that we can trust 00:16:29.660 --> 00:16:41.360 that if we set up a supportive space with, you know, supportive adults, 00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:47.150 that and these novel experiences, kids will be able to start to, you 00:16:47.150 --> 00:16:48.710 know, treat themselves in a way. 00:16:48.740 --> 00:16:55.930 You kind of put all the raw materials out there and and how, how wonderfully healing 00:16:55.930 --> 00:17:02.775 that could be and and, and doing it in a way that promoted not just yes, you can. 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.880 Process what it's like to be a kid whose life has been touched 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.750 by cancer, who has had a family member's lives touched by cancer. 00:17:12.170 --> 00:17:16.970 You can also while doing that, build mastery in another area, right? 00:17:16.970 --> 00:17:18.500 So they were learning. 00:17:19.700 --> 00:17:24.620 Some pretty cool things they could do to support these animals 00:17:24.620 --> 00:17:26.060 and develop that relationship. 00:17:26.060 --> 00:17:30.500 And then at the end, you know, of each week there would be a family 00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:33.980 day where they could showcase what they've learned, right. 00:17:34.040 --> 00:17:37.340 And and really be seen as the expert on something. 00:17:38.090 --> 00:17:44.479 And so, so yeah, that job really got me jazzed about the idea of 00:17:44.479 --> 00:17:49.489 combining mental health with animal assisted therapies or activities. 00:17:49.549 --> 00:17:52.719 And so yeah, then I went and became a social worker. 00:17:53.199 --> 00:17:54.009 And then 00:17:54.729 --> 00:17:56.049 Rupert Isaacson: why social worker though? 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:57.039 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, 00:17:57.789 --> 00:17:58.869 Rupert Isaacson: that's quite, that's quite niche. 00:17:59.139 --> 00:18:02.049 Like, there, there were other, other, you could have become a psychologist. 00:18:02.049 --> 00:18:03.939 You could have become a psychotherapist. 00:18:03.939 --> 00:18:06.909 You could have, you know, there are other avenues you could have gone. 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:10.659 And a lot of people within the sort of equine assisted world do. 00:18:11.109 --> 00:18:11.679 Why social 00:18:13.084 --> 00:18:13.374 Betsy Kahl: work? 00:18:13.429 --> 00:18:13.549 I. 00:18:15.199 --> 00:18:19.999 Went and talked to different department heads at Cleveland State University 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:23.979 and tried to get a feel of what the different perspectives were. 00:18:23.979 --> 00:18:26.199 And this is at least my understanding on it. 00:18:26.199 --> 00:18:28.989 It's not to say that's the only way to look at it or that it's the right 00:18:28.989 --> 00:18:34.619 way to look at it, but you know, when I knew I didn't wanna do a doctorate, 00:18:34.919 --> 00:18:38.699 you know, so that was kind of like, for me, it was like, okay, I wasn't going 00:18:38.699 --> 00:18:41.129 to go try to do the PhD in psychology. 00:18:41.469 --> 00:18:42.819 Certainly not medical school. 00:18:43.059 --> 00:18:46.769 So, so then it was what can you have a master's degree in and still 00:18:46.769 --> 00:18:50.559 practice clinically, which took it to counseling or social work. 00:18:50.919 --> 00:18:58.779 And I, for my pers to feel on it, was that counseling was going to be more on 00:19:00.010 --> 00:19:02.110 I more on yeah. 00:19:02.170 --> 00:19:04.000 Like kind of analyzing and really. 00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:09.070 Like the inner part of the per or sort of siloed on the person. 00:19:09.070 --> 00:19:12.440 I'm not saying that's the way it always is but social work really looked at 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:16.070 like, okay, how does this person interact with systems in their environment? 00:19:16.100 --> 00:19:16.670 Right. 00:19:16.730 --> 00:19:24.950 And, and I liked that idea of just felt less pathologizing even 00:19:24.950 --> 00:19:26.270 though you're still diagnosing. 00:19:26.650 --> 00:19:31.710 But, and also the people who I met again through animal camp being social 00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:40.320 workers, I really respected and valued how they seemed to work and be able 00:19:40.320 --> 00:19:46.500 to balance, you know, that mental health piece, but also figuring out. 00:19:47.310 --> 00:19:51.600 How you can adapt and modify environments and systems and so, so 00:19:51.600 --> 00:19:54.840 yeah, it was never just about like that person who's having a problem. 00:19:54.840 --> 00:19:57.210 It was like really looking at through a wider lens. 00:19:57.600 --> 00:20:01.530 And, and I think that's a little bit more of an orientation that social work 00:20:01.530 --> 00:20:06.330 tends to draw from is again, like, you know, looking through systems, looking 00:20:06.330 --> 00:20:10.530 at the person in relation to their environment, looking at various ways you 00:20:10.530 --> 00:20:16.470 can create change that can end up being supportive, not just, you know, trying 00:20:16.470 --> 00:20:18.750 to get the person to change themselves. 00:20:19.260 --> 00:20:25.320 And so, so that's, that's where I grab why I gravitated towards it. 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:33.050 And yeah, so then outta grad school, I got my first job at a larger 00:20:33.050 --> 00:20:35.150 community mental health center. 00:20:35.510 --> 00:20:37.540 And, they contracted with schools. 00:20:37.540 --> 00:20:40.030 So I was like a traveling school-based therapist as 00:20:40.030 --> 00:20:41.590 well as doing home-based work. 00:20:42.010 --> 00:20:49.540 And one of the schools I ended up being placed at was a school that specialized 00:20:49.540 --> 00:20:53.350 in providing like an alternative education setting for kids who were not 00:20:53.350 --> 00:20:55.510 thriving in more traditional settings. 00:20:56.020 --> 00:20:59.870 And many of these children were diagnosed with autism amongst other things. 00:21:00.260 --> 00:21:05.030 And they ended up offering me, instead of contracting with the agency, they 00:21:05.030 --> 00:21:08.390 offered me a full-time job to come and be their school-based therapist. 00:21:08.390 --> 00:21:14.650 So I ended up doing that for about three years and then moved to Texas. 00:21:14.650 --> 00:21:21.325 So, so anyways, right from going to grad school and social working and starting 00:21:21.325 --> 00:21:25.445 trying to get my clinical hours, there wasn't a lot of, you know, I, I left 00:21:25.445 --> 00:21:29.615 the university with my graduate degree thinking, okay, I'm gonna start making 00:21:29.615 --> 00:21:31.505 like animal camps all over the world. 00:21:31.505 --> 00:21:34.175 Like, but, or all over this area. 00:21:34.325 --> 00:21:36.905 But there wasn't really like a job for that. 00:21:36.905 --> 00:21:41.345 And so you're just kind of getting your clinical work in whichever way you can. 00:21:41.345 --> 00:21:42.815 You're at supervision hours. 00:21:42.995 --> 00:21:46.865 So there were not a ton of animal opportunities. 00:21:46.965 --> 00:21:50.145 But thankfully once I started working at that school, I was 00:21:50.145 --> 00:21:51.705 allowed to sort of create some stuff. 00:21:51.705 --> 00:21:55.135 So while I couldn't bring horses to the classroom we ended up 00:21:55.225 --> 00:21:57.145 incorporating Shakespeare program. 00:21:57.145 --> 00:22:01.495 So I had the actor teacher friends from my old job. 00:22:01.565 --> 00:22:05.745 We worked and brought a theater arts residency week there. 00:22:05.805 --> 00:22:10.985 And that was really, really awesome to see how Shakespeare could be performed as well 00:22:10.985 --> 00:22:16.975 as other classic pieces with the variety of, we had, you know, ages, I think, ooh. 00:22:17.410 --> 00:22:22.160 Four to like 21, 22 at that school. 00:22:22.190 --> 00:22:27.560 And some speaking, some or yeah, speaking some non-speaking students 00:22:27.560 --> 00:22:33.260 and how we could, yeah, how theater was something that no matter what, how 00:22:33.260 --> 00:22:37.790 you communicated you could perform and how, how timeless those stories were. 00:22:37.790 --> 00:22:38.810 That was super cool. 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:45.070 And then we also did a therapy dog program, so different people who had 00:22:45.220 --> 00:22:47.370 therapy dogs came and we did like a. 00:22:49.035 --> 00:22:53.925 Biweekly, I think eight session therapy dog thing, which worked out so well. 00:22:53.925 --> 00:22:57.345 Then I ended up adopting my golden retriever and getting him 00:22:57.345 --> 00:23:00.045 certified as a therapy dog, and he became the school therapy dog. 00:23:00.315 --> 00:23:05.175 So I don't, lots of different weird things, but then when I moved to 00:23:05.175 --> 00:23:07.005 Texas, that was what I told myself. 00:23:07.005 --> 00:23:09.705 I was like, okay, now I can get back into trying to meld 00:23:09.705 --> 00:23:13.065 horses with, with social work. 00:23:13.605 --> 00:23:14.505 I'm back. 00:23:17.985 --> 00:23:19.035 Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting. 00:23:19.125 --> 00:23:23.875 I met you I remember actually at this dressage barn. 00:23:23.875 --> 00:23:23.965 Mm-hmm. 00:23:24.325 --> 00:23:30.235 White fences in Mainor, Texas, which was the next town on from Elgin, Texas, where 00:23:30.535 --> 00:23:32.965 we were based and we were there for. 00:23:34.195 --> 00:23:37.465 I can't remember if we were doing taking a, 00:23:37.915 --> 00:23:40.260 Betsy Kahl: I think you had Christophe Hess there as a C. 00:23:40.345 --> 00:23:40.885 That's right. 00:23:40.945 --> 00:23:41.455 Rupert Isaacson: That's right. 00:23:41.455 --> 00:23:42.985 We brought Christophe Hess. 00:23:43.165 --> 00:23:43.285 Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm. 00:23:43.525 --> 00:23:43.795 Who, 00:23:44.035 --> 00:23:47.215 Rupert Isaacson: for those listeners who don't know who Christophe Hess is 00:23:47.215 --> 00:23:53.695 or was, he was at that time the head of education for the fn, which is the 00:23:53.695 --> 00:23:59.865 German equivalent of the USEF or the British Horse Society or whatever. 00:24:00.255 --> 00:24:02.765 And we brought him over for a clinic. 00:24:02.765 --> 00:24:03.335 That's right. 00:24:03.395 --> 00:24:08.825 And he, we organized for him to come over to the barn where you 00:24:08.825 --> 00:24:11.135 were boarding your horse, I think. 00:24:11.165 --> 00:24:17.075 And I ran into you and I had one of those gut feelings. 00:24:17.075 --> 00:24:21.365 I was like, oh, this person is one of those people that can 00:24:21.365 --> 00:24:24.825 like, do the lot whether it's on the horse side or the human side. 00:24:25.215 --> 00:24:29.835 And I remember we had this initial conversation, where I sort of said, 00:24:30.375 --> 00:24:34.935 would you kind of like to come check out the interesting shit that we do? 00:24:35.355 --> 00:24:38.745 And you kind of went, well, maybe, you know, and then, yeah, that's 00:24:38.745 --> 00:24:40.185 Betsy Kahl: my classic response. 00:24:40.695 --> 00:24:42.135 Rupert Isaacson: And then you, even when 00:24:42.135 --> 00:24:43.935 Betsy Kahl: Cody proposed to me, I was like, 00:24:46.065 --> 00:24:47.265 Rupert Isaacson: Cody, Cody again. 00:24:47.265 --> 00:24:49.845 FE listeners that, dunno, Betsy is, is her husband. 00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:50.260 Yeah. 00:24:50.310 --> 00:24:51.540 Yeah, I, I could see that. 00:24:52.745 --> 00:24:53.035 Yeah. 00:24:53.455 --> 00:24:56.890 But then you came out and you kind of looked around and went, yeah. 00:24:56.890 --> 00:24:56.900 Yeah. 00:24:56.900 --> 00:24:57.280 Okay. 00:24:57.340 --> 00:25:00.400 And next thing I knew you are running our program. 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:08.620 The, I remember, I remember recognizing this kind of versatility in you, 00:25:09.370 --> 00:25:10.600 which was sort of a gut feeling. 00:25:10.600 --> 00:25:12.520 'cause I didn't know your background at that point. 00:25:12.760 --> 00:25:15.250 I just saw that you. 00:25:16.525 --> 00:25:21.175 Rode really well and had this kind of open heart and inquiring mind. 00:25:21.775 --> 00:25:27.385 And then I subsequently found out about your, you know, therapeutic and social 00:25:27.385 --> 00:25:35.785 work background before we get to how you kind of melded the Orthodox of the 00:25:35.785 --> 00:25:38.935 Unorthodox, which is path with Horse Boy. 00:25:39.925 --> 00:25:46.345 And then out of that helped us to build Athena, which is now called, which 00:25:46.345 --> 00:25:48.025 we'll talk about why the name changed. 00:25:49.645 --> 00:25:54.895 Before we go there, I'm interested in your take on theater arts. 00:25:55.555 --> 00:25:55.765 Hmm. 00:25:57.505 --> 00:26:01.465 Why is this kind of crucial? 00:26:02.035 --> 00:26:06.355 Why is this so good to have a background in theater arts if you're going to deal 00:26:06.355 --> 00:26:12.265 with equine assisted stuff, and then you, you, you subsequently went from there 00:26:12.265 --> 00:26:18.325 talking about Shakespeare for people who don't speak, which is counterintuitive 00:26:18.355 --> 00:26:20.875 because Shakespeare's all about language. 00:26:20.925 --> 00:26:25.695 So just talk to us a little bit about that before we go to the next stage. 00:26:27.645 --> 00:26:28.125 Betsy Kahl: Okay. 00:26:28.365 --> 00:26:31.935 So I think the first one was theater arts and how it can be 00:26:31.935 --> 00:26:33.615 helpful for people in mm-hmm. 00:26:33.855 --> 00:26:35.715 Equine work. 00:26:36.045 --> 00:26:38.985 I, well, I don't know. 00:26:38.985 --> 00:26:42.855 I guess I've never thought about how that's informed my equine 00:26:42.855 --> 00:26:47.655 work as much, but I think one of the ways it could be helpful is 00:26:50.535 --> 00:26:51.465 that it's. 00:26:53.145 --> 00:26:57.795 It's really about listening and responding, if any, and, and 00:26:57.895 --> 00:26:58.195 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 00:26:59.065 --> 00:27:00.385 Betsy Kahl: To some degree, right? 00:27:00.385 --> 00:27:04.945 So if you're doing any type of performance, so much of it is 00:27:04.945 --> 00:27:07.015 well being in the moment, right? 00:27:07.105 --> 00:27:11.135 And, trying to truly understand what whoever you're sharing the 00:27:11.135 --> 00:27:14.705 stage with or whatever even is happening audience wise, right? 00:27:14.705 --> 00:27:15.155 Like 00:27:15.455 --> 00:27:15.605 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:27:15.705 --> 00:27:20.535 Betsy Kahl: You know, my theater career has been, their theatrical 00:27:20.535 --> 00:27:22.335 stuff has been from, from Yeah. 00:27:22.335 --> 00:27:28.885 Doing, you know, some stuff I'd like to forget in various youth theaters too. 00:27:28.935 --> 00:27:31.635 Not I like to forget, but like, things that, like if it, someone would 00:27:31.635 --> 00:27:32.835 say like, oh, we found this clip. 00:27:32.835 --> 00:27:33.705 I'd be like, oh lord, 00:27:34.305 --> 00:27:35.295 Rupert Isaacson: let's call it a learning curve. 00:27:35.295 --> 00:27:35.355 Yeah, 00:27:35.535 --> 00:27:36.555 Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah. 00:27:36.555 --> 00:27:38.595 Not because I feel like the performance event, but like, 00:27:38.595 --> 00:27:40.005 I'm talking like I don't know. 00:27:40.005 --> 00:27:43.755 We did like a, I, my senior in high school, I was in the tine rabbit. 00:27:43.755 --> 00:27:46.575 I was one of the cool bunnies, so I'm like dressed in this giant rabbit 00:27:46.575 --> 00:27:50.115 costume, like singing the funny bunny rag and hopping around, and I thought 00:27:50.115 --> 00:27:52.155 it was like the coolest thing ever. 00:27:52.155 --> 00:27:52.455 You know? 00:27:52.455 --> 00:27:52.515 How 00:27:52.515 --> 00:27:53.745 Rupert Isaacson: does the funny bunny rag go? 00:27:55.575 --> 00:27:57.225 Betsy Kahl: Do you want the choreography too? 00:27:57.225 --> 00:27:57.555 Yes, 00:27:57.555 --> 00:27:57.765 Rupert Isaacson: please. 00:28:00.075 --> 00:28:00.675 Betsy Kahl: You, yeah. 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:01.010 Okay. 00:28:01.215 --> 00:28:01.365 Yeah. 00:28:01.365 --> 00:28:03.195 Rupert Isaacson: You can't just put that out there and not do it. 00:28:03.195 --> 00:28:03.435 Yeah. 00:28:03.830 --> 00:28:04.280 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 00:28:04.310 --> 00:28:04.610 Yeah. 00:28:04.610 --> 00:28:05.000 Okay. 00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:05.780 Well, let me see. 00:28:05.780 --> 00:28:07.070 I don't know if I have enough space. 00:28:07.070 --> 00:28:10.100 I can do it with this camera angle, but, and there's two 00:28:10.100 --> 00:28:11.660 other bunnies with me, right? 00:28:11.660 --> 00:28:11.960 I was, okay, 00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:13.940 Rupert Isaacson: we one on each side. 00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:14.960 Are you the middle bunny? 00:28:15.110 --> 00:28:15.920 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, of course. 00:28:17.900 --> 00:28:21.900 And this again, if you have the video, I might not have it right, but so 00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:27.240 we're telling the vine rabbit how to be a, a real rabbit, you know, and 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:35.000 it goes just perk your ears up and hear the bead and tell those rabbit 00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:36.380 feet, you can't see my feet too. 00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:39.830 Bounce along and don't be such a drag 00:28:42.105 --> 00:28:43.730 start and never stop. 00:28:43.730 --> 00:28:49.190 Just wind your hopper up and do the funny bunny rag. 00:28:50.600 --> 00:28:51.290 Hey. 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:53.060 And there's more. 00:28:53.090 --> 00:28:54.950 But I think that's a sample. 00:28:55.290 --> 00:28:59.505 Rupert Isaacson: Now you were absolutely on pitch. 00:29:00.005 --> 00:29:02.155 Oh, on key and on point there. 00:29:02.215 --> 00:29:06.535 Betsy Kahl: Well, as, as you know, the funny bunny rag, so, well, I could have 00:29:06.535 --> 00:29:13.015 just made that up, but, but you know, I think there's just that ability to 00:29:13.015 --> 00:29:15.385 kind of surrender and have fun too. 00:29:15.445 --> 00:29:15.955 Right. 00:29:15.955 --> 00:29:18.475 Because like no one want. 00:29:18.535 --> 00:29:24.045 So, so yeah, doing things like that, working with other human beings to 00:29:24.045 --> 00:29:26.475 tell and create and imagine stories. 00:29:27.165 --> 00:29:28.695 And then also, 00:29:30.705 --> 00:29:33.915 yeah, it requires, you'd have to be present to 00:29:36.285 --> 00:29:38.925 surrender to the emotions that are showing up. 00:29:39.615 --> 00:29:39.645 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:29:39.645 --> 00:29:40.005 Maybe 00:29:40.005 --> 00:29:42.015 Betsy Kahl: not fighting, but moving through them. 00:29:42.075 --> 00:29:42.165 Mm-hmm. 00:29:42.165 --> 00:29:42.645 And I think 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:43.140 Rupert Isaacson: that's, 00:29:43.995 --> 00:29:48.285 Betsy Kahl: that's what, when I said like, yeah, know theater really saved me 00:29:48.285 --> 00:29:50.235 or healed me, I think that's what it was. 00:29:50.635 --> 00:29:51.715 It was something that, not 00:29:51.835 --> 00:29:54.895 Rupert Isaacson: fighting the emotion, but surrendering to it and moving through it. 00:29:54.895 --> 00:29:55.585 I love that. 00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:56.860 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 00:29:56.890 --> 00:29:57.580 Thank you. 00:29:58.040 --> 00:30:00.680 And it's, it's a safe container though, right? 00:30:01.040 --> 00:30:08.360 And, and something that I always found weird was sometimes you'd be like, oh, 00:30:08.660 --> 00:30:14.360 it is so brave to be like, to do that or on stage I, that's so courageous. 00:30:14.360 --> 00:30:23.660 And I remember thinking like, I don't, for me, I disagreed 'cause I felt experiencing 00:30:23.660 --> 00:30:28.160 allowing myself to experience emotions and theater felt so much safer than life. 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:29.900 'cause I knew where the story was going. 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.830 Rupert Isaacson: That is, I think what I was trying to get to, I think 00:30:33.830 --> 00:30:37.890 that, I don't think that, I know that in the experience that I've had with 00:30:37.890 --> 00:30:44.310 Shamanism, for example a shaman takes on a role and they take on the role as the 00:30:44.310 --> 00:30:50.310 healer, but they also take on the role as your suffering and many other roles. 00:30:50.730 --> 00:30:50.820 Yeah. 00:30:50.850 --> 00:30:51.690 You. 00:30:52.080 --> 00:30:59.010 As the person one, as the person going for healing also takes on a role. 00:30:59.760 --> 00:31:05.370 And that these roles are not like negative masking, trying to 00:31:05.370 --> 00:31:07.920 damp down your authentic self. 00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:13.230 It's more like the type of practical masking that you might do, for example, 00:31:13.230 --> 00:31:17.940 to get in camouflage or to actually put a mask on so that someone didn't recognize 00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:21.660 you in a situation where if they did recognize you, you might be in trouble. 00:31:21.930 --> 00:31:24.300 Or let's say you're going to hunt a deer. 00:31:24.390 --> 00:31:28.260 It might not be a terrible idea to put on a disc and, and a pair of antlers. 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:29.100 Mm-hmm. 00:31:29.340 --> 00:31:30.445 It's all about agency. 00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:35.520 The idea of, of putting on roles. 00:31:35.520 --> 00:31:40.350 I think I've definitely seen this over the years for the 00:31:40.350 --> 00:31:41.940 populations that we work with. 00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:43.110 Mm-hmm. 00:31:43.350 --> 00:31:45.150 When they learn how to do this in. 00:31:48.885 --> 00:31:51.195 Exactly as you said, safe containers, like a show 00:31:53.535 --> 00:31:56.505 or a, a play date or a therapy session. 00:31:56.505 --> 00:32:02.415 I like to call them play dates, you know, where they can then trust 00:32:02.415 --> 00:32:07.365 that the people around them, the facilitators, you, me, will go with it. 00:32:09.375 --> 00:32:13.515 This then translates to a certain confidence that they can go out in the 00:32:13.515 --> 00:32:21.255 world and function even while suffering from imposter syndrome or fear or anxiety 00:32:21.255 --> 00:32:24.135 or all the things that we all suffer from. 00:32:24.605 --> 00:32:28.115 But of course, if you're on the spectrum or going through some 00:32:28.655 --> 00:32:33.635 mental health crisis situation, it's going to be much more acute. 00:32:34.535 --> 00:32:37.445 So I, I love the fact that you. 00:32:38.120 --> 00:32:40.310 Can bring theater arts to that. 00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:48.350 Do you feel that something along the lines of theater, arts, role playing, 00:32:48.350 --> 00:32:56.720 shape shifting should be a part of the training for this kind of work? 00:32:57.290 --> 00:32:59.420 Because, because you're so good at it, right? 00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:03.500 I mean, you've ran our program, but you, you ran our program and 00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:10.040 I watched you, I observed you, and you would just be able to meld 00:33:10.040 --> 00:33:14.660 yourself to not just the individual, but to the groups that came in. 00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:15.800 Mm-hmm. 00:33:15.806 --> 00:33:23.540 And bring out the best in them and get them doing things that they, you know, I 00:33:23.540 --> 00:33:26.000 remember seeing a, a group of kids from 00:33:28.040 --> 00:33:28.790 the 00:33:33.800 --> 00:33:36.170 foster programs. 00:33:38.090 --> 00:33:47.240 In Austin and I observed a bunch of times you being able to get 00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:54.620 through that anger and that hurt and bring them to creativity, 00:33:56.330 --> 00:34:02.060 self-advocacy through playing roles. 00:34:03.290 --> 00:34:04.430 Why isn't this taught? 00:34:04.435 --> 00:34:05.450 Why, why, why? 00:34:05.450 --> 00:34:10.100 Why isn't this, whether it's with horses or whether it's not with 00:34:10.100 --> 00:34:14.270 horses, why isn't this a sort of standard thing in mental health stuff? 00:34:15.560 --> 00:34:18.830 Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, I mean, there are avenues of mental health, I 00:34:18.830 --> 00:34:20.330 suppose, where you lean into that. 00:34:20.330 --> 00:34:24.700 I mean, there's, you know, and there's even some treatment modalities that 00:34:24.910 --> 00:34:29.020 emphasize, you know, the various roles or various parts within a person. 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:34.520 But but as agree, yeah, but as I as you were talking about like this, and to, to 00:34:34.520 --> 00:34:41.120 tie it back to adaptive or equine assisted services, like in a way you kind of, 00:34:43.460 --> 00:34:45.860 it's, it's almost already there, right? 00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:48.320 The structure, because like when you're studying, you're, you're 00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:49.970 like the instructor in training. 00:34:49.970 --> 00:34:55.280 Like you literally are like labeled or you show up as instructor, what have you. 00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:55.670 Right? 00:34:55.670 --> 00:35:02.780 And so, so I mean, the parts and the performance is almost already there in 00:35:02.780 --> 00:35:08.030 a, you know, even I remember during my the, the women who ran the program, boo. 00:35:08.140 --> 00:35:13.450 Martin, who is, was a big name within the Path community as well as one of 00:35:13.450 --> 00:35:16.900 the founders of equine facilitated mental health, that like offshoot 00:35:16.900 --> 00:35:20.640 little side, not side program, but you know, like they have the, like 00:35:20.970 --> 00:35:23.940 the equine assisted learning, mental health, vaulting, you know, these 00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:25.890 little subsets you can get certified in. 00:35:25.890 --> 00:35:30.760 But Boo was one of the people who kind of pioneered pushing that into the industry. 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:33.260 And that's why I chose to study with her. 00:35:33.260 --> 00:35:35.270 But I remember her having this thing of being like, you're 00:35:35.270 --> 00:35:37.100 not just teaching, right? 00:35:37.250 --> 00:35:38.780 There are people who are listening. 00:35:38.780 --> 00:35:40.760 There are people who not parents want to hear. 00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:44.870 Like you're, when you're teaching, it's not just to the student. 00:35:44.870 --> 00:35:48.290 Like think of the volunteers, think of the people watching, think 00:35:48.290 --> 00:35:49.760 of who might be coming through. 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:54.290 And she's like, it, everything is for everyone. 00:35:54.740 --> 00:36:00.710 And, and I don't, and in that made a lot of sense to me of being. 00:36:01.115 --> 00:36:04.805 Maybe it did translate in my brain like, oh, this is, this is, yeah. 00:36:04.805 --> 00:36:07.235 The arena is, is a stage as well. 00:36:07.235 --> 00:36:09.325 And that was, and sometimes the 00:36:09.325 --> 00:36:11.035 Rupert Isaacson: arena is a stage as well. 00:36:11.305 --> 00:36:11.485 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, 00:36:11.730 --> 00:36:13.495 Rupert Isaacson: that's, that's an interesting comment. 00:36:14.845 --> 00:36:15.415 Betsy Kahl: Okay. 00:36:15.565 --> 00:36:15.865 Yeah. 00:36:15.865 --> 00:36:18.355 But I mean, it kind of, if you think about it, because I think 00:36:18.355 --> 00:36:19.105 Rupert Isaacson: you're dead, right? 00:36:19.375 --> 00:36:19.615 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 00:36:19.615 --> 00:36:22.555 There's people who watch, like even when I'm riding, you know, you 00:36:22.555 --> 00:36:25.210 ride your own horse or working with your own horse, there are always. 00:36:26.080 --> 00:36:30.280 You know, everyone's got a side eye on everybody sometimes at farms. 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:36.760 But yeah, yeah, what you bring, what you put out there does ripple through and 00:36:36.870 --> 00:36:41.260 and that was even you know, the large program up in Texas that I worked at, it 00:36:41.260 --> 00:36:45.460 was set up like open, very open space, you know, as you kind of have the luxury 00:36:45.460 --> 00:36:47.680 of that and the climate that is Texas. 00:36:47.680 --> 00:36:52.190 But you know, so people walking down aisles could have direct lines 00:36:52.190 --> 00:36:53.810 of sight to what was happening. 00:36:53.810 --> 00:36:57.770 There were chairs set up along the perimeter, right, where people would 00:36:57.770 --> 00:37:01.210 sit you know, literally on the nights I would teach the veteran programs. 00:37:01.210 --> 00:37:05.890 We had our little like Britney Spears mic headsets and what 00:37:05.890 --> 00:37:07.900 you said was getting amplified. 00:37:07.900 --> 00:37:14.680 So why not make it something that could be that a person, whether on the horse or 00:37:14.680 --> 00:37:19.210 sitting in a chair or walking alongside supporting the rider that they could all. 00:37:19.630 --> 00:37:21.010 Get something from it. 00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:21.580 Right. 00:37:22.120 --> 00:37:28.120 And I think that's always been sort of the, the things I, I think of is, 00:37:28.150 --> 00:37:31.840 yeah, kind of what you're saying is like, we create these containers, but 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:34.150 what can you experience in a container? 00:37:34.240 --> 00:37:37.900 And I see my role as like, how do I start to create those 00:37:37.900 --> 00:37:39.820 transitional bridges, right? 00:37:39.820 --> 00:37:46.810 So that always thinking like, how does this riding or horsemanship groundwork 00:37:46.810 --> 00:37:52.360 thing, how do you can, how can you find that personal connection and how 00:37:52.360 --> 00:38:01.310 does that then support maybe showing up differently outside or believing 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:09.590 that there's more that you, there's more you can safely show outside. 00:38:10.040 --> 00:38:10.910 Of this space. 00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:12.690 So yeah, I don't know. 00:38:12.750 --> 00:38:15.450 Maybe that, yeah, I haven't really thought of that. 00:38:15.450 --> 00:38:18.270 So anyways, point of why, why this could be helpful in training. 00:38:18.270 --> 00:38:23.910 I think we've just said a few things could be helpful, but what theater does 00:38:23.910 --> 00:38:28.560 is it requires you, again, like I said, to be present, to truly listen, to go 00:38:28.560 --> 00:38:37.590 off of what you're getting, not just to stay, you know, stuck in one way. 00:38:37.590 --> 00:38:40.050 I mean, sometimes when I show you, yes, you have your script, 00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:45.180 right, but how you say it will be changed based on what's happening. 00:38:45.660 --> 00:38:51.530 And and also to kind of continually be thinking, okay, yes, and 00:38:51.530 --> 00:38:53.060 this yes and this, right? 00:38:53.060 --> 00:38:55.850 That's like this typical improv rule of like, yes. 00:38:55.850 --> 00:38:58.760 And, but, but theater is one of those places where the second 00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:02.990 you start thinking, no, no, no, everything falls apart. 00:39:03.605 --> 00:39:03.995 Right. 00:39:03.995 --> 00:39:05.015 You, you've just Right. 00:39:05.015 --> 00:39:05.885 No, absolutely. 00:39:05.945 --> 00:39:07.295 Rupert Isaacson: Improv show must go on. 00:39:07.355 --> 00:39:08.435 It's so interesting. 00:39:08.465 --> 00:39:13.935 I started working in the last year with a group in London called 00:39:13.935 --> 00:39:17.835 Chicken Shed who are a theater that started in the chicken shed. 00:39:18.345 --> 00:39:18.435 Mm-hmm. 00:39:18.675 --> 00:39:20.545 And now are a big deal. 00:39:21.985 --> 00:39:25.405 They put on shows that are like Broadway quality. 00:39:25.405 --> 00:39:32.815 You shouldn't be able to put those shows on really with amateur junior 00:39:34.375 --> 00:39:40.495 actors who are various degrees of special needs, and yet they do. 00:39:41.455 --> 00:39:45.385 And we might be putting something together with the Horse Boy story with them. 00:39:47.095 --> 00:39:51.085 I've observed how they work and it's so interesting now they, they have this, 00:39:51.085 --> 00:39:57.475 degree program through the university system in the uk where I think they're the 00:39:57.475 --> 00:40:03.025 only people that offer is it theater Arts 00:40:05.185 --> 00:40:07.825 for special needs in the special needs context 00:40:08.095 --> 00:40:08.185 mm-hmm. 00:40:09.205 --> 00:40:10.315 As a degree program. 00:40:10.315 --> 00:40:15.295 And it's kind of genius because of course the people who are teaching it are 00:40:15.445 --> 00:40:22.345 people who've come through their programs and their performances, who themselves 00:40:22.345 --> 00:40:23.905 have various types of special needs. 00:40:24.445 --> 00:40:24.565 Mm-hmm. 00:40:25.165 --> 00:40:26.815 And one sees that it works 00:40:29.575 --> 00:40:36.175 so well that when you go to see one of those shows, it's not that you forget 00:40:36.175 --> 00:40:37.585 that the people have special needs. 00:40:37.585 --> 00:40:41.305 It's that the special needs that the person has enhances the show. 00:40:44.725 --> 00:40:46.085 I do feel that there is. 00:40:47.395 --> 00:40:51.085 Naturally and for very good reasons, a sort of desire within the equine 00:40:51.085 --> 00:40:54.415 assisted thing, within any kind of mental health thing to try to help 00:40:54.415 --> 00:40:57.245 people to integrate with the mainstream. 00:40:58.355 --> 00:41:02.345 And that is a worthy cause and it is necessary. 00:41:02.615 --> 00:41:03.965 And at the same time, 00:41:06.395 --> 00:41:07.955 it's not the, it's not the mainstream. 00:41:07.955 --> 00:41:08.045 Mm-hmm. 00:41:08.825 --> 00:41:15.635 You know, one is outside of the mainstream defacto in the work that we do. 00:41:16.025 --> 00:41:21.425 And the difficulty now is it's, as it's becoming more accepted and better funded, 00:41:21.995 --> 00:41:30.425 is that one is expected to now kind of present it in a mainstream sort of a way. 00:41:31.445 --> 00:41:37.265 And it's nice that we are all coming from the hippie margins into the mainstream. 00:41:37.955 --> 00:41:40.655 You're a bit more mainstream than I was 'cause you were with path, 00:41:40.655 --> 00:41:44.795 but, you know, I, I could not have been more marginal and now suddenly. 00:41:45.995 --> 00:41:51.555 Governments and insurance companies and so forth are paying for our services. 00:41:51.795 --> 00:41:57.525 And now we have to more and more, you know, for, tick those boxes 00:41:57.525 --> 00:42:01.965 and present ourselves as if we were mainstream and for, for all the 00:42:01.965 --> 00:42:08.625 reasons that, you know, are inevitable and good and at the same time that 00:42:08.625 --> 00:42:10.515 the magic is not in the mainstream. 00:42:12.315 --> 00:42:17.505 And I think to a large degree you personify that, which is that, you know, 00:42:17.505 --> 00:42:24.285 you've, you, you, you still perform, I know you still perform of what you 00:42:24.285 --> 00:42:29.805 perform, you know, just in performances outside of anything to do with 00:42:29.955 --> 00:42:31.335 equine, anything to do with, you know, 00:42:33.435 --> 00:42:34.575 and I got it. 00:42:34.575 --> 00:42:35.595 It's like, yes. 00:42:36.285 --> 00:42:42.465 That is the ammunition that gives you the ability to show somebody else how 00:42:42.465 --> 00:42:51.495 to perform in a way that serves them and does not drain them, so that they can 00:42:51.495 --> 00:42:58.755 then use that performance to go into the mainstream world, into the shark infested 00:42:58.755 --> 00:43:01.635 waters of neurotypical humanity and swim. 00:43:01.665 --> 00:43:02.835 Mm-hmm. 00:43:05.325 --> 00:43:10.575 So you are a senior path instructor, you're a horse boy instructor. 00:43:11.295 --> 00:43:16.695 You're also a helped us to get what was called the Athena Program going what's 00:43:16.695 --> 00:43:18.645 now called the Takin Program going. 00:43:23.175 --> 00:43:28.875 What in your perfect world would you like to see from theater 00:43:28.875 --> 00:43:34.035 arts performing Arts in this? 00:43:34.635 --> 00:43:41.475 Equine assisted world as a sort of a basic curriculum. 00:43:41.925 --> 00:43:45.585 It would like, it wouldn't matter whether you were going path horse boy, Al 00:43:46.665 --> 00:43:48.980 whatever, there would just be a sort of a 00:43:52.695 --> 00:43:58.215 psychic theater thing that ought to be, that ought to run through the whole, 00:43:58.275 --> 00:43:59.685 it should just be a theme that runs. 00:43:59.955 --> 00:44:04.095 What, what would that look like and how would it be taught in your perfect world? 00:44:06.721 --> 00:44:09.561 If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering 00:44:09.561 --> 00:44:13.481 a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider 00:44:13.551 --> 00:44:17.821 taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs. 00:44:17.881 --> 00:44:23.461 Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original 00:44:24.056 --> 00:44:30.366 Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and 00:44:30.366 --> 00:44:33.036 developed in conjunction with Dr. 00:44:33.036 --> 00:44:35.916 Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists. 00:44:36.256 --> 00:44:39.526 We work in the saddle with younger children. 00:44:40.021 --> 00:44:44.971 Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain. 00:44:45.631 --> 00:44:47.071 It works incredibly well. 00:44:47.071 --> 00:44:48.791 It's now in about 40 countries. 00:44:49.501 --> 00:44:50.251 Check it out. 00:44:50.931 --> 00:44:55.081 If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement 00:44:55.091 --> 00:44:58.461 method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be 00:44:58.461 --> 00:45:00.211 applied in schools, in homes. 00:45:00.411 --> 00:45:05.401 If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do 00:45:05.401 --> 00:45:06.941 at home that will create neuroplasticity. 00:45:08.296 --> 00:45:09.576 when they're not with you. 00:45:10.086 --> 00:45:13.526 Finally, we have taquine equine integration. 00:45:13.886 --> 00:45:16.506 If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a 00:45:16.506 --> 00:45:20.506 really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin 00:45:20.536 --> 00:45:24.826 in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult. 00:45:25.266 --> 00:45:28.606 So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this 00:45:28.626 --> 00:45:32.866 also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being. 00:45:33.066 --> 00:45:37.356 And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how 00:45:37.356 --> 00:45:40.656 am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they 00:45:40.656 --> 00:45:43.751 need, as well as Serving my clients. 00:45:43.991 --> 00:45:48.491 Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base 00:45:48.821 --> 00:45:50.471 absolutely gives you this. 00:45:50.531 --> 00:45:53.591 Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, this is, that's a big question. 00:45:53.981 --> 00:46:03.751 What I liked with how Athena evolved and now to Keen at least 00:46:03.811 --> 00:46:06.331 my interaction with it, right? 00:46:06.391 --> 00:46:08.881 What I liked was that. 00:46:09.676 --> 00:46:17.626 It was a framework of the classical master's system that, that you were 00:46:17.626 --> 00:46:23.596 applying to improving quality of horses to be able to do the therapeutic work. 00:46:23.596 --> 00:46:23.956 Right? 00:46:24.736 --> 00:46:28.456 And, and so. 00:46:28.981 --> 00:46:33.301 I think it was kind of looking at, yeah, what, what is the story of the system? 00:46:33.301 --> 00:46:33.601 Right. 00:46:33.601 --> 00:46:33.961 Okay. 00:46:33.961 --> 00:46:36.931 Well, it was based in military training. 00:46:36.931 --> 00:46:39.061 All right, well, where is that showing? 00:46:39.061 --> 00:46:41.311 I think when you're kind of spitballing these ideas, okay, 00:46:41.311 --> 00:46:46.261 well it should, who, how does this connect then with what's happening? 00:46:46.261 --> 00:46:48.691 And so it was sort of like, okay, military training. 00:46:48.691 --> 00:46:52.141 Okay, veteran, like for me it's like connected to veteran programming, right? 00:46:52.141 --> 00:46:55.801 And then being like, yeah, there is a bit of a gap because sometimes we're 00:46:55.801 --> 00:47:00.721 limited on courses that are, can successfully partner under saddle. 00:47:00.781 --> 00:47:01.291 Right. 00:47:01.381 --> 00:47:04.441 For a variety of reasons, especially when you're dealing with adults and if 00:47:04.441 --> 00:47:08.401 your center has predominantly, you know, some tough scrappy ponies, but not, or 00:47:08.401 --> 00:47:10.771 some pretty older arthritic courses. 00:47:10.771 --> 00:47:11.071 Right. 00:47:11.071 --> 00:47:14.401 And so, so yeah, I think it was just kind of considering like. 00:47:15.246 --> 00:47:19.771 How can, how can we take this classic story much like a classic 00:47:19.771 --> 00:47:21.271 Shakespearean text, right? 00:47:21.511 --> 00:47:25.291 How do we cast it in this new environment, right? 00:47:25.711 --> 00:47:31.621 And, and who, who steps into these roles and why can't, why can't we make the 00:47:31.621 --> 00:47:34.201 veterans the stars of the, the show? 00:47:34.201 --> 00:47:34.651 Right? 00:47:34.651 --> 00:47:39.811 You know, why, why can't they and what, you know, be, have their 00:47:39.811 --> 00:47:41.161 co-star of the horse, right? 00:47:41.461 --> 00:47:47.191 And have them create something, a new story together, right? 00:47:47.251 --> 00:47:49.711 A new story about movement. 00:47:50.171 --> 00:47:55.211 About, about, yeah, about possibility, right? 00:47:55.631 --> 00:47:59.761 And and so I, 00:48:03.451 --> 00:48:11.701 I think for any equine program, maybe what theater offers is that idea of. 00:48:13.531 --> 00:48:15.331 You don't have to 00:48:18.031 --> 00:48:20.671 come up with something totally new. 00:48:20.671 --> 00:48:26.041 It's like, how do we find a new lens to look at what is known? 00:48:26.041 --> 00:48:31.771 How do we get creative in how, what we can add to the stories, right? 00:48:32.491 --> 00:48:39.821 And, and that I think is what was so cool to see evolve with the first 00:48:39.821 --> 00:48:48.941 group of veterans who helped, you know, so, so generously as well 00:48:48.941 --> 00:48:50.381 as the horses we partner with. 00:48:50.381 --> 00:48:54.821 They were just generous to go along with this idea of, hey, like let's try this. 00:48:54.881 --> 00:48:56.321 Let's try this thing, right? 00:48:56.681 --> 00:48:59.261 And let me create the scene, right? 00:48:59.291 --> 00:49:04.511 Here's the history, here's why it came on, you know, and what they would bring to it. 00:49:04.901 --> 00:49:09.871 The, some of the best practitioners of the work ended up being, the veterans 00:49:09.871 --> 00:49:12.681 who worked who flew helicopters, right? 00:49:12.921 --> 00:49:18.561 'cause they understood this idea of thinking and multi planes of movement. 00:49:19.011 --> 00:49:19.821 Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting. 00:49:19.821 --> 00:49:19.971 And 00:49:19.971 --> 00:49:26.301 Betsy Kahl: balance and when things, you know, were on and off and how Yeah. 00:49:26.691 --> 00:49:30.411 And, and I think, you know, what they brought to it and how they 00:49:30.411 --> 00:49:34.971 shared that knowledge with the group, with the horse, with myself, right. 00:49:35.271 --> 00:49:40.761 That took my understanding of, of the work to a totally different level as well. 00:49:41.211 --> 00:49:41.511 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 00:49:41.511 --> 00:49:43.501 Betsy Kahl: And and there, yeah. 00:49:43.501 --> 00:49:44.371 And so 00:49:47.461 --> 00:49:50.461 I think it's that curiosity, right. 00:49:50.461 --> 00:49:58.081 Of, and creativity and embracing, being willing to step slightly into the unknown. 00:49:58.361 --> 00:49:58.551 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:49:58.986 --> 00:50:01.536 Betsy Kahl: And, and I don't know if there's really a prescriptive. 00:50:02.646 --> 00:50:08.136 Thing that it could look like, because each program in 00:50:08.136 --> 00:50:09.726 place has their own strengths. 00:50:09.726 --> 00:50:13.416 And, and maybe that's where the challenge is, you know, is we're all trying, 00:50:13.926 --> 00:50:17.886 something that I'm always constantly like checking in with myself is, you know, 00:50:18.156 --> 00:50:25.626 when I have with your feeling for whatever reason, not enoughness or depleted or just 00:50:25.986 --> 00:50:26.076 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 00:50:26.316 --> 00:50:30.906 Betsy Kahl: Stuck like in the bog of sometimes looking out and being 00:50:30.906 --> 00:50:35.196 like, oh, that thing, if I can do that thing, I'm going to feel like if 00:50:35.196 --> 00:50:38.886 I can be that person or that program or that thing or that training. 00:50:39.276 --> 00:50:39.696 Right? 00:50:39.996 --> 00:50:46.206 And, and sometimes that is the thing to do, but sometimes you also just thinking 00:50:46.206 --> 00:50:47.946 of being like, okay, well what is it? 00:50:50.526 --> 00:50:55.266 What am, what am I trying to resolve for myself by seeking that out? 00:50:55.266 --> 00:50:56.736 And do I already possess. 00:50:58.821 --> 00:51:00.441 What is needed to do that? 00:51:00.501 --> 00:51:00.891 Right. 00:51:00.891 --> 00:51:02.061 Do I already have that? 00:51:02.181 --> 00:51:04.071 And, and yeah. 00:51:04.071 --> 00:51:07.281 Maybe that 00:51:09.351 --> 00:51:11.536 I, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I 00:51:11.606 --> 00:51:13.431 Rupert Isaacson: well, I just wrote down, I wrote something down. 00:51:13.551 --> 00:51:13.761 Yeah. 00:51:13.761 --> 00:51:19.171 As you were wrote a bunch of things down actually, but you, a few minutes ago 00:51:19.171 --> 00:51:21.301 you said create a new story together. 00:51:21.811 --> 00:51:22.201 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 00:51:22.861 --> 00:51:27.661 Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if that's kind of the missing thing that 00:51:28.021 --> 00:51:36.121 actually unites all of the supposedly opposing, of course they're not. 00:51:36.611 --> 00:51:41.201 But people might think that they are equine assisted modalities 00:51:41.201 --> 00:51:42.551 or disciplines or whatever. 00:51:43.151 --> 00:51:47.201 Where what is, what is it that we're all actually doing? 00:51:47.231 --> 00:51:50.111 We are creating a new story together. 00:51:51.731 --> 00:51:53.981 But it's not explicitly said. 00:51:55.511 --> 00:51:57.281 So one can get 00:51:59.711 --> 00:52:00.911 diverted or 00:52:03.376 --> 00:52:03.881 Yeah, yeah. 00:52:04.601 --> 00:52:08.741 Negatively diverted by details of saying, well, I, you know, I do this modality, 00:52:08.741 --> 00:52:13.691 I do horse boy, or I do Athena, which is now taking, or I do path, or I do al or 00:52:13.691 --> 00:52:16.151 I do, you know, life manship or whatever. 00:52:16.601 --> 00:52:19.361 And actually what we're all doing is the same thing. 00:52:19.361 --> 00:52:22.541 What, what we're all doing is I think you, you put your finger on it. 00:52:22.541 --> 00:52:27.821 We are creating a new story together, but there might be ways in which 00:52:27.881 --> 00:52:33.071 to do that, that are quite a bit specific for certain population types. 00:52:33.611 --> 00:52:40.961 That mean that if people were to carry over from one discipline to another, 00:52:40.961 --> 00:52:45.431 one modality to another, one niche to another, they could do it very happily if 00:52:45.431 --> 00:52:48.011 they kept front and center in their mind. 00:52:48.416 --> 00:52:50.996 We are creating a new story together, whether it's for the horse or 00:52:50.996 --> 00:52:54.236 whether it's for the human, you know? 00:52:54.236 --> 00:52:59.426 And I know that that isn't sadly how many people in our industry think. 00:53:00.546 --> 00:53:07.986 But I have noticed that there's a growing impatience with the 00:53:10.356 --> 00:53:16.056 law, the lawmakers and the gatekeepers of funding and so on, with our endless 00:53:16.056 --> 00:53:21.086 factionalism where we bicker with each other, you know, in the same way that 00:53:21.086 --> 00:53:26.816 people in the horse industry do, because we shouldn't really be doing that. 00:53:26.906 --> 00:53:34.046 And I've, I've often wondered, you know, what is the common denominator between 00:53:34.046 --> 00:53:36.926 us all in the equine assisted world? 00:53:38.171 --> 00:53:42.071 I mean, you could say it's healing, but I love this idea. 00:53:42.071 --> 00:53:45.161 You, you said it, I'm, you know, I'm quoting you back to yourself. 00:53:45.311 --> 00:53:46.991 Create a new story together. 00:53:47.771 --> 00:53:47.891 Mm-hmm. 00:53:49.031 --> 00:53:54.671 And if you're going to do that, then it might be a good idea to have some tools 00:53:55.551 --> 00:53:58.441 you know, whether it's theater arts, whether it's old master's training, 00:53:58.441 --> 00:54:04.651 whether it's neuro neuroscience, whether it's, presumably it's all these things. 00:54:05.311 --> 00:54:05.551 Mm-hmm. 00:54:06.451 --> 00:54:10.831 And that we as the professionals in this field, 00:54:13.741 --> 00:54:16.321 surely could naturally 00:54:19.441 --> 00:54:25.321 share our trade secrets, experiences, and. 00:54:28.836 --> 00:54:29.126 Sure. 00:54:29.521 --> 00:54:29.911 You know? 00:54:30.541 --> 00:54:31.201 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 00:54:31.651 --> 00:54:36.601 Rupert Isaacson: Yet, yet we are still hovering on the brink of it. 00:54:36.841 --> 00:54:44.471 I was just I was just last month at a gathering in Ireland hosted paid for by 00:54:44.561 --> 00:54:46.601 Horse Sport Island, which is amazing. 00:54:46.631 --> 00:54:51.251 'cause Horse Sport Ireland is affected with the U-S-D-U-S-E-F or it's D fn. 00:54:51.341 --> 00:54:52.271 It's the BHS. 00:54:52.961 --> 00:55:02.681 And they have correctly measured that the equine assisted field is 00:55:02.681 --> 00:55:06.851 the only really growing field in the equine world at the moment. 00:55:07.901 --> 00:55:11.171 And they wanted us all from a bunch of different disciplines 00:55:11.951 --> 00:55:18.641 or modalities to present what we did without selling our thing or 00:55:18.671 --> 00:55:20.081 trashing the other person's thing. 00:55:20.141 --> 00:55:23.681 And it's really interesting because we had a bunch of people in the same room. 00:55:24.566 --> 00:55:28.856 Who had to behave themselves, who normally are really at loggerheads with each other. 00:55:29.786 --> 00:55:29.966 Hmm. 00:55:29.966 --> 00:55:36.566 And because they weren't allowed to present that way, what came across 00:55:36.566 --> 00:55:43.586 was quite a coherent, multifaceted front of, we helped to create a 00:55:43.586 --> 00:55:45.086 new story together for people. 00:55:45.326 --> 00:55:47.996 It just might look a bit like this, or it might look a bit like that depending 00:55:47.996 --> 00:55:49.196 on what type of person you have. 00:55:49.916 --> 00:55:50.036 Mm-hmm. 00:55:52.046 --> 00:55:54.056 You've been in it for a long time. 00:55:54.056 --> 00:55:56.936 You, you're an instructor in our modalities. 00:55:56.936 --> 00:55:58.196 You're an instructor in path. 00:56:00.056 --> 00:56:01.496 How should it change? 00:56:01.916 --> 00:56:08.516 Like what, what should happen to, to, to bring us all 00:56:08.516 --> 00:56:09.626 together for the greater good? 00:56:16.406 --> 00:56:17.036 Betsy Kahl: Well, 00:56:20.246 --> 00:56:20.906 I think. 00:56:26.816 --> 00:56:31.696 I think man, it's being, being able to, 00:56:34.516 --> 00:56:37.741 there's, there's, there's, it's so hard to say in an abstract 00:56:37.741 --> 00:56:38.896 way how it should change. 00:56:38.896 --> 00:56:41.176 But I think in just st 00:56:48.406 --> 00:56:54.106 being, I, organizationally, I'm not sure, you know, I'm not really working at that 00:56:54.106 --> 00:57:01.396 level perhaps someday, but individually I can, I suppose I can speak on that 00:57:01.816 --> 00:57:03.766 and perhaps there's something there. 00:57:04.046 --> 00:57:08.366 I think individually it is 00:57:10.886 --> 00:57:13.616 really that self, self-awareness, knowing. 00:57:15.191 --> 00:57:17.651 Knowing what your strengths are. 00:57:17.651 --> 00:57:19.511 Being okay with that, right? 00:57:19.511 --> 00:57:24.011 Like being okay with not having to be everything is something 00:57:24.011 --> 00:57:29.531 that can be difficult, especially in a work environment where 00:57:29.531 --> 00:57:32.471 there is so much variety, right? 00:57:32.581 --> 00:57:39.571 And so much different stuff and that it is okay to much like with horses, right? 00:57:39.571 --> 00:57:42.571 Like, you know, you have your specialist in PO you have your 00:57:42.571 --> 00:57:44.701 specialist in certain things. 00:57:45.061 --> 00:57:48.181 They might not love your specialist for jumping, right? 00:57:48.187 --> 00:57:51.181 Like the horse said, stay up and say, yeah, I will teach 00:57:51.181 --> 00:57:52.561 anyone how to do this thing. 00:57:52.591 --> 00:57:53.251 'cause I love it. 00:57:53.281 --> 00:57:53.671 Right? 00:57:54.041 --> 00:57:59.111 I think that it is okay for you as an individual to know, right? 00:57:59.141 --> 00:58:04.631 What, what feels maybe not forever, but for now, where, where do I 00:58:04.631 --> 00:58:09.461 feel like this is where my talents. 00:58:09.896 --> 00:58:11.216 Thrive and shine, right? 00:58:11.216 --> 00:58:18.296 Like that, I feel very secure and safe in working this way. 00:58:18.296 --> 00:58:18.386 Mm-hmm. 00:58:18.626 --> 00:58:20.756 Not to say that I can't stretch, right? 00:58:20.756 --> 00:58:22.136 It's not to say to play comfortable. 00:58:22.136 --> 00:58:28.286 It's not to say to play small, but it's to say like, this, this is I 00:58:28.316 --> 00:58:31.856 within what I can do, this is within what I can tolerate right now. 00:58:31.856 --> 00:58:36.596 This is within this in a place that I can work where I can, you 00:58:36.596 --> 00:58:42.446 know, meet the needs of the people who show up in that, you know? 00:58:43.116 --> 00:58:47.646 And so, so I think sometimes that's helpful is just to feel like you can 00:58:47.646 --> 00:58:54.516 honestly assess that for yourself or get help from someone to assess that for you 00:58:54.516 --> 00:59:02.076 and understand identifying that what it is, where you do your best work and, and 00:59:02.076 --> 00:59:04.626 then yeah, where are those stretch places? 00:59:05.136 --> 00:59:09.126 And where do you find the support to grow in that area? 00:59:09.306 --> 00:59:12.966 And I don't know if, you know, that's something that space was 00:59:12.966 --> 00:59:15.156 made for that inquiry for me. 00:59:15.336 --> 00:59:19.896 It immediately, you know, sometimes you look at the job descriptions 00:59:19.896 --> 00:59:24.366 of a ride center and it's like you will do everything right. 00:59:24.371 --> 00:59:24.551 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:59:24.696 --> 00:59:25.866 Betsy Kahl: And for everyone. 00:59:25.866 --> 00:59:30.396 And, and yeah, there is, you know, resources are thin or, or 00:59:30.396 --> 00:59:31.986 with horses that come in, right? 00:59:31.986 --> 00:59:35.886 And like, that resources can be tight and we want that. 00:59:35.916 --> 00:59:39.396 We so desperately want that to be the reality, but that might not be it. 00:59:39.396 --> 00:59:42.186 And what do we destroy as we try to force that? 00:59:42.186 --> 00:59:42.276 Mm-hmm. 00:59:43.251 --> 00:59:51.951 And so, yeah, I think as we allow, again, individuals to, in every 00:59:51.951 --> 00:59:58.191 aspect, from horses to the instructors, to participants, just to be. 00:59:59.481 --> 01:00:03.981 Able to show up as who they are and build from there. 01:00:04.311 --> 01:00:04.851 Right. 01:00:05.001 --> 01:00:08.691 Not try to be something else. 01:00:09.331 --> 01:00:11.071 Or pretend you like it. 01:00:11.611 --> 01:00:13.231 Rupert Isaacson: It's tricky in the horsey world, isn't it? 01:00:13.231 --> 01:00:13.816 Because Yeah. 01:00:15.901 --> 01:00:18.661 It comes as, you know, we've inherited it from the military. 01:00:18.661 --> 01:00:24.661 And military is about conform and conform, although there's a threat of 01:00:24.661 --> 01:00:31.261 violence and that this still underpins the way in which we relate to each other 01:00:31.261 --> 01:00:34.291 within the horse world, whether it's the therapeutic world, sport world, or any 01:00:34.291 --> 01:00:37.111 other world I feel that has to change. 01:00:37.231 --> 01:00:37.711 And I do. 01:00:37.831 --> 01:00:38.821 I, I'm optimistic. 01:00:38.821 --> 01:00:40.201 I feel it is changing. 01:00:40.831 --> 01:00:40.921 Mm-hmm. 01:00:41.461 --> 01:00:44.491 But we can't really do the job. 01:00:45.606 --> 01:00:45.896 Yeah. 01:00:46.036 --> 01:00:48.481 Unless, yeah, we. 01:00:49.696 --> 01:00:51.286 Actually appreciate each other, you know? 01:00:51.856 --> 01:00:53.146 Betsy Kahl: Well, yeah. 01:00:53.206 --> 01:00:56.916 And, and I think appreciate what each person can offer. 01:00:56.916 --> 01:01:00.696 And I think that's where, you know, maybe this is where art is. 01:01:00.696 --> 01:01:06.636 So in whatever way it shows up in your life for me, theater, arts, equestrian 01:01:06.636 --> 01:01:13.686 art circus art, you know, that, that there is, you appreciate people 'cause 01:01:13.686 --> 01:01:15.576 the thing doesn't belong to you. 01:01:15.846 --> 01:01:16.386 Right? 01:01:16.416 --> 01:01:20.226 Like, nobody owns the idea of horses. 01:01:20.226 --> 01:01:22.206 Nobody owns the idea of therapy. 01:01:22.206 --> 01:01:22.716 Like, that's so 01:01:23.556 --> 01:01:23.916 Rupert Isaacson: true. 01:01:24.081 --> 01:01:24.301 And, 01:01:24.306 --> 01:01:29.436 Betsy Kahl: and so I think if you just realize like you are, you have 01:01:29.436 --> 01:01:36.786 this finite time to be part of this story, to contribute what you can, and 01:01:36.786 --> 01:01:40.206 maybe it'll change the world, maybe it'll just impact someone's life. 01:01:40.371 --> 01:01:40.791 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:01:40.891 --> 01:01:41.311 Betsy Kahl: But like. 01:01:42.416 --> 01:01:43.496 That's enough, right? 01:01:45.056 --> 01:01:46.166 Isn't that enough? 01:01:46.586 --> 01:01:54.196 And and so I think that's, you know, there is no, art doesn't create a creativity, 01:01:54.196 --> 01:01:59.236 and art is the place that I love to go back to because there is, there's no place 01:01:59.236 --> 01:02:02.746 for hierarchy or power or that, right. 01:02:02.746 --> 01:02:03.226 And it, 01:02:03.766 --> 01:02:05.851 Rupert Isaacson: except that the art world is full of that, but Yes. 01:02:06.091 --> 01:02:09.976 Betsy Kahl: Well, but to some degree, but not at its core, right? 01:02:10.096 --> 01:02:10.606 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:02:10.606 --> 01:02:10.666 Yeah. 01:02:10.816 --> 01:02:10.936 You 01:02:11.211 --> 01:02:14.896 Betsy Kahl: know, not, yeah, sometimes you're like in the sake of survival 01:02:14.896 --> 01:02:20.026 or trying to push yourself or brand or be, or like have whatever, right? 01:02:20.031 --> 01:02:20.091 Mm-hmm. 01:02:20.396 --> 01:02:23.006 But at its core, right, it's. 01:02:23.996 --> 01:02:31.226 It's not you, you couldn't, if you could sell, truly sell it like you 01:02:31.226 --> 01:02:34.316 because you know, like there as someone who works with that, like 01:02:34.316 --> 01:02:38.411 there is a thing, like it's that, it's that intangible quality of Yeah. 01:02:38.471 --> 01:02:38.691 Rupert Isaacson: Of 01:02:38.816 --> 01:02:42.146 Betsy Kahl: that in the moment connection that feel that attunement, that, 01:02:44.091 --> 01:02:45.926 Rupert Isaacson: that, that's, I think we could put a name on it. 01:02:45.941 --> 01:02:47.126 I, I think the name is love. 01:02:47.636 --> 01:02:51.626 If you're trying to tell a story, let's go outside of horses for a moment. 01:02:52.106 --> 01:02:52.436 Mm-hmm. 01:02:52.766 --> 01:02:55.016 That story is only going to 01:02:57.596 --> 01:03:03.296 have any resonance if it somehow is about love or, or, or good 01:03:03.296 --> 01:03:06.716 stories are love stories and love doesn't have to mean romantic love. 01:03:06.716 --> 01:03:10.316 It's, you know, the infinite expressions of love. 01:03:10.316 --> 01:03:11.126 Mm-hmm. 01:03:11.236 --> 01:03:13.666 Because what we know I think is that life is love. 01:03:15.026 --> 01:03:16.886 The tree loves the. 01:03:17.921 --> 01:03:20.021 Mycelium network. 01:03:20.411 --> 01:03:24.431 The mycelium network loves the tree and the soil. 01:03:24.521 --> 01:03:29.831 The soil loves the tree and the mycelium network, the rain loves. 01:03:29.831 --> 01:03:32.051 Or you know, I, I, I, 01:03:34.781 --> 01:03:36.401 this is where I think working with horses is 01:03:38.681 --> 01:03:39.341 healing. 01:03:39.341 --> 01:03:44.441 For those of us that do it is nature always wants to bring 01:03:44.441 --> 01:03:46.181 us back to a state of harmony. 01:03:47.121 --> 01:03:51.261 There is the glass half empty way of looking at the world. 01:03:51.321 --> 01:03:52.701 Just say, no, nature is entropy. 01:03:52.701 --> 01:03:53.961 And it's always in decay. 01:03:55.161 --> 01:03:55.461 Yeah. 01:03:55.466 --> 01:03:59.751 But then when it decay, it re constitutes itself and creates Betsy, or, you 01:03:59.751 --> 01:04:04.071 know, one of your horses or the person that you're working with or that tree. 01:04:04.491 --> 01:04:06.921 And then when that tree dies, it becomes another thing. 01:04:06.921 --> 01:04:09.201 But that isn't a bad thing. 01:04:09.591 --> 01:04:12.591 That's a loving thing actually. 01:04:12.811 --> 01:04:15.541 If when you die, you become the soil and then you become. 01:04:16.666 --> 01:04:17.926 The thing that, yeah. 01:04:18.256 --> 01:04:18.946 So 01:04:21.136 --> 01:04:26.176 I do feel it's about love and I do feel that horses bring us back to that, even 01:04:26.176 --> 01:04:32.146 when we're almost willfully forgetting it and using the horse, projecting the horse 01:04:32.146 --> 01:04:34.546 as a way to compete with each other or 01:04:35.721 --> 01:04:36.141 mm-hmm. 01:04:36.946 --> 01:04:38.536 Cause each other harm in some way. 01:04:40.486 --> 01:04:46.476 You know, when we, when you and I helped teach other pioneer Athena, you 01:04:46.476 --> 01:04:53.406 know, we, we, we then got sued by some people who said, no, we're Athena. 01:04:54.336 --> 01:04:57.456 And actually we were both Athena at the same time. 01:04:57.666 --> 01:05:02.316 It just, like, literally within a week of each other, we'd done the 01:05:02.316 --> 01:05:08.646 trademarks, but one in North America, one in Europe, and the European ones 01:05:09.216 --> 01:05:11.196 approached us with such aggression. 01:05:12.891 --> 01:05:14.001 It was so interesting to me. 01:05:14.001 --> 01:05:16.131 I was like, well, why didn't you just talk to us? 01:05:16.281 --> 01:05:21.321 You know, of course we would figure it out because we are 01:05:21.321 --> 01:05:22.581 all here for the same reason. 01:05:22.611 --> 01:05:26.301 We, we all are here to try to lovingly help people. 01:05:26.301 --> 01:05:31.611 Like my son who's sitting on the other side of the court run courtyard right now. 01:05:31.641 --> 01:05:34.191 'cause I killed him with too many chores today. 01:05:34.771 --> 01:05:36.121 He, you know very well, Rowan. 01:05:37.021 --> 01:05:37.171 Mm-hmm. 01:05:37.411 --> 01:05:39.961 I do feel that that has to change. 01:05:40.071 --> 01:05:46.341 If we as a sort of equine assisted world are going to evolve to the next 01:05:46.341 --> 01:05:51.051 stage where, you know, like you as a social worker, where we're being 01:05:51.051 --> 01:05:57.051 prescribed in the same way that doctors are now prescribing nature, thank 01:05:57.051 --> 01:05:59.091 God, you know, to people and so on. 01:05:59.241 --> 01:06:00.831 The stuff that actually works. 01:06:01.281 --> 01:06:01.521 Hmm. 01:06:02.466 --> 01:06:08.736 As long as we're so obviously factional with each other, people notice and 01:06:08.736 --> 01:06:12.006 then they don't take us seriously because they go, you're just a bunch 01:06:12.006 --> 01:06:13.596 of idiots arguing with each other. 01:06:14.526 --> 01:06:15.756 A bunch of horsey snobs. 01:06:17.316 --> 01:06:18.756 We've gotta break out of that. 01:06:18.756 --> 01:06:19.626 We've gotta stop that. 01:06:19.716 --> 01:06:24.816 And I think that you are one of those people that I've observed who 01:06:24.816 --> 01:06:27.186 just automatically treads that line. 01:06:28.206 --> 01:06:36.066 When we with Horse Boy began, we were astonished at the 01:06:37.266 --> 01:06:38.796 aggression with which path. 01:06:38.856 --> 01:06:40.986 And Nara at that time met us. 01:06:41.946 --> 01:06:45.716 And I dunno if you remember this, you know, back in 2018 I was giving 01:06:45.716 --> 01:06:50.756 a talk at Denver University and I talked about that and I said, you 01:06:50.756 --> 01:06:55.136 know, I was saddened by it as an autism dad 'cause it made me feel that. 01:06:56.216 --> 01:07:00.626 Really, the people in the field just weren't actually, were more concerned 01:07:00.956 --> 01:07:05.096 with protecting their territory than with helping people like myself. 01:07:05.096 --> 01:07:05.246 And, 01:07:05.426 --> 01:07:05.636 yeah. 01:07:06.276 --> 01:07:11.166 What I didn't know is that the board of Path was sitting in the audience 01:07:11.166 --> 01:07:15.826 at that time, and we got that email saying you know, well, should we talk? 01:07:15.826 --> 01:07:16.846 And I thought, well, this is great. 01:07:16.846 --> 01:07:17.656 Yes, absolutely. 01:07:17.656 --> 01:07:18.196 Let's talk. 01:07:18.586 --> 01:07:23.386 And then I asked you to be on that call because you were, you know, a 01:07:23.386 --> 01:07:27.466 path person and an US person too. 01:07:28.396 --> 01:07:35.986 And on that call there was the, the person who was in charge said, well, you 01:07:35.986 --> 01:07:37.336 know, we've never bad mouthed, do you? 01:07:37.336 --> 01:07:40.846 We've, and I remember saying, you know, why are we even having this conversation? 01:07:40.846 --> 01:07:44.386 Of course you have, you know, you have, but the, the real reason 01:07:44.386 --> 01:07:46.546 is why, like, what is your beef? 01:07:47.401 --> 01:07:48.421 Truly, what is your beef? 01:07:48.421 --> 01:07:50.941 We'd like to know, and I dunno if you remember, they said, 01:07:50.941 --> 01:07:52.231 well, we think you are dangerous. 01:07:52.921 --> 01:07:53.941 And we said, well, why? 01:07:53.941 --> 01:07:54.151 Why? 01:07:54.151 --> 01:07:55.171 Why are we dangerous? 01:07:55.171 --> 01:07:56.761 And they said, well, 'cause of the back riding. 01:07:56.761 --> 01:07:58.891 'cause you ride with a kid in front of you in horse boy. 01:07:59.701 --> 01:08:03.751 And we said, yeah, but look, if it's dangerous, I'm gonna touch wood here. 01:08:04.171 --> 01:08:08.071 But why have we not had an accident in back then it was 01:08:08.071 --> 01:08:09.451 15 years, now it's 20 years. 01:08:09.451 --> 01:08:10.471 Like why? 01:08:12.031 --> 01:08:13.771 What is this based on? 01:08:14.701 --> 01:08:17.161 Where is, where is this danger that you're talking about? 01:08:17.971 --> 01:08:22.741 And then they said, well, ah. 01:08:23.371 --> 01:08:26.221 Because when we did it, we had accidents. 01:08:26.761 --> 01:08:27.751 And then the penny dropped. 01:08:27.751 --> 01:08:28.771 And I was like, I see. 01:08:28.771 --> 01:08:30.031 Yes, of course. 01:08:30.121 --> 01:08:30.481 Right? 01:08:30.511 --> 01:08:34.171 Because you don't prepare the horse's back, you don't prepare the 01:08:34.171 --> 01:08:37.741 horse, you don't prepare the rider, you don't prepare the whole thing. 01:08:38.011 --> 01:08:41.101 So therefore, yes, if you did it, it probably would be dangerous. 01:08:41.101 --> 01:08:42.451 So you should stick to what you do. 01:08:43.081 --> 01:08:45.811 We should do what we do and we should compliment each other. 01:08:47.026 --> 01:08:49.056 And Athena kind of grew out of that really. 01:08:50.676 --> 01:08:52.236 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah. 01:08:52.446 --> 01:08:53.016 Yeah. 01:08:53.136 --> 01:09:00.556 I have, I, you know, I, I think that's, I can't imagine how, how painful that 01:09:00.556 --> 01:09:04.816 must have been to be very excited, you know, when you were first realizing what 01:09:04.816 --> 01:09:06.706 helped Rowan and wanting to offer that. 01:09:07.186 --> 01:09:10.096 It's, it's probably very painful. 01:09:10.216 --> 01:09:11.476 I don't know that exact, it was 01:09:11.476 --> 01:09:12.226 Rupert Isaacson: surprising. 01:09:12.391 --> 01:09:13.036 It was, but yeah. 01:09:13.456 --> 01:09:13.516 I 01:09:13.516 --> 01:09:20.566 Betsy Kahl: mean, surprising, but yeah, like it's any type of, any type 01:09:20.566 --> 01:09:25.216 of messaging that can be for me, you know, and I've been in situations, 01:09:25.246 --> 01:09:27.106 work situations, outside work words. 01:09:27.166 --> 01:09:28.181 The idea when the, the. 01:09:28.531 --> 01:09:33.781 The takeaway you get, like what, who you are and what you do is wrong. 01:09:34.001 --> 01:09:37.101 That, that can be really hard to hear. 01:09:37.551 --> 01:09:40.731 And I don't always handle that feedback well. 01:09:40.831 --> 01:09:41.041 Right. 01:09:41.461 --> 01:09:42.501 But I wish I could 01:09:42.501 --> 01:09:42.996 Rupert Isaacson: say I did. 01:09:42.996 --> 01:09:43.196 Yeah, 01:09:43.546 --> 01:09:44.556 Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah. 01:09:44.991 --> 01:09:48.141 I, I, it's something I'd like to get better at, but I think, 01:09:50.301 --> 01:09:56.301 and again, you know, ultimately we can't, we can kind of try 01:09:56.301 --> 01:09:57.501 to find where we connect. 01:09:57.501 --> 01:10:01.851 And I think, I recall in the call, like at least the one place we were able to 01:10:01.851 --> 01:10:05.961 connect was this idea that we wanted to. 01:10:07.551 --> 01:10:13.161 That a, a sound horse, a equine welfare was one of the key things 01:10:13.161 --> 01:10:17.181 that would promote safety for people regardless of what way we're working. 01:10:17.186 --> 01:10:17.436 Rupert Isaacson: Right? 01:10:17.436 --> 01:10:17.636 Yes. 01:10:17.896 --> 01:10:18.516 Equine welfare. 01:10:18.826 --> 01:10:19.116 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:10:19.316 --> 01:10:20.636 Rupert Isaacson: A strong back, a happy horse. 01:10:20.656 --> 01:10:21.116 And so, 01:10:21.116 --> 01:10:21.396 Betsy Kahl: yeah. 01:10:21.471 --> 01:10:22.041 Right. 01:10:22.161 --> 01:10:27.171 And I think, you know, those are the things, if we can all, at least. 01:10:27.771 --> 01:10:32.511 Whatever, whatever ego stuff we have to get through. 01:10:32.516 --> 01:10:32.596 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:10:32.676 --> 01:10:32.796 Betsy Kahl: Right? 01:10:32.896 --> 01:10:36.741 But to figure out where do we, where is that connection, right? 01:10:36.741 --> 01:10:40.731 Where is that thing that we both value, that we both are united on? 01:10:40.731 --> 01:10:45.831 And that is one thing that I will say has started to come more and more up in, into 01:10:45.831 --> 01:10:50.356 the industry, at least in my awareness, even within you know, whatever pleasure 01:10:50.356 --> 01:10:52.396 or competitive riding discipline, right? 01:10:52.396 --> 01:10:58.086 Is this idea of, you know, something that we haven't centered enough is the 01:10:58.086 --> 01:11:01.176 welfare of our horses and, and how, right. 01:11:01.446 --> 01:11:02.256 Rupert Isaacson: How do we start? 01:11:02.256 --> 01:11:02.821 You're, you're dead, right? 01:11:02.886 --> 01:11:05.046 'cause we're all, we're all under scrutiny now. 01:11:05.226 --> 01:11:07.416 You know, the whole social licensing thing. 01:11:07.811 --> 01:11:08.101 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:11:08.496 --> 01:11:08.826 Yeah. 01:11:08.826 --> 01:11:09.276 It's not just 01:11:09.276 --> 01:11:09.906 Rupert Isaacson: the sport people. 01:11:09.906 --> 01:11:11.916 It's us too in the equine assisted field. 01:11:12.366 --> 01:11:13.626 Betsy Kahl: Right, right. 01:11:13.626 --> 01:11:15.936 And, and that scrutiny can be challenging, right? 01:11:15.941 --> 01:11:15.971 Mm-hmm. 01:11:16.051 --> 01:11:19.416 Sometimes you are doing the best you can with the resources you have, 01:11:19.416 --> 01:11:23.976 and that is okay, you know, and not everyone can have the textbook perfect 01:11:24.606 --> 01:11:30.576 setup, but you, you do what you, you can to the best of your ability. 01:11:30.666 --> 01:11:37.256 And you know, I, it's something that's interesting is, you know, organizationally 01:11:37.286 --> 01:11:41.006 things that, or individ on an individual level again, 'cause that's where 01:11:41.006 --> 01:11:46.166 I work, is this idea of, you know, can we ask ourselves a question of 01:11:46.166 --> 01:11:52.316 like, what is it I want and what am I willing to do to not get that right? 01:11:52.496 --> 01:11:53.996 And because we're always 01:11:56.426 --> 01:11:58.391 one of, to not get that. 01:11:58.706 --> 01:11:59.576 Rupert Isaacson: That's, yeah. 01:11:59.936 --> 01:12:02.426 Betsy Kahl: And, and it's when it, you know, and that's where we start 01:12:02.426 --> 01:12:03.836 to come up with those stories, right? 01:12:03.836 --> 01:12:05.276 If I say, okay, well I want. 01:12:06.101 --> 01:12:10.001 You know, I don't even know who my horse to be able to do this thing. 01:12:10.001 --> 01:12:10.481 Right. 01:12:10.481 --> 01:12:10.991 You know? 01:12:10.991 --> 01:12:11.001 Mm-hmm. 01:12:11.006 --> 01:12:13.241 And what am I willing to do to not get that? 01:12:13.241 --> 01:12:20.231 And it's like you start to have to really sit with those hard actions that you take 01:12:20.291 --> 01:12:25.541 that oppose what you say it is you want, and then you have to recognize, okay, well 01:12:25.781 --> 01:12:27.641 I have to reevaluate one of these things. 01:12:27.931 --> 01:12:31.166 And then the thought, the question is too, with do you realize 01:12:31.166 --> 01:12:32.366 what you're doing to not get it? 01:12:32.576 --> 01:12:33.386 It's the idea. 01:12:33.686 --> 01:12:38.786 In this line of inquiry it, it's called, it's in this book called Immunity to 01:12:38.786 --> 01:12:42.426 Change, which I thought was such a cool title by and and it's like, what are 01:12:42.426 --> 01:12:47.736 the commitments I've made that support those things that, you know, those, what 01:12:47.736 --> 01:12:51.876 am I committed to that is preventing me from getting that thing that I want? 01:12:51.876 --> 01:12:52.236 Rupert Isaacson: Right? 01:12:52.326 --> 01:12:52.686 Yeah. 01:12:52.836 --> 01:12:54.126 What hill am I dying on? 01:12:54.396 --> 01:12:54.846 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:12:54.936 --> 01:12:55.416 Yeah. 01:12:55.416 --> 01:12:56.136 And it's when the 01:12:56.136 --> 01:12:56.586 Rupert Isaacson: actual. 01:12:57.381 --> 01:12:58.551 Job is on the other hill. 01:12:58.701 --> 01:12:58.791 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:12:58.846 --> 01:12:59.166 Mm-hmm. 01:12:59.246 --> 01:12:59.256 Mm-hmm. 01:13:00.081 --> 01:13:05.451 And so I think maybe regardless of who we are in this industry, it's like, okay, 01:13:05.451 --> 01:13:14.991 well if we say we want welfare and we want programming that really helps or supports 01:13:15.021 --> 01:13:19.971 participants to get X, Y, Z, right? 01:13:20.331 --> 01:13:25.401 You know, if we say this is what we want, what, what are we doing that prevents it? 01:13:26.331 --> 01:13:27.861 What are we willing to continue doing? 01:13:27.861 --> 01:13:28.911 And then like why? 01:13:29.181 --> 01:13:29.271 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:13:29.301 --> 01:13:33.741 But that means that one has to admit that one sometimes is preventing it. 01:13:34.236 --> 01:13:34.776 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:13:34.806 --> 01:13:35.491 Which is, that's a 01:13:35.491 --> 01:13:36.546 Rupert Isaacson: hard thing to admit, right? 01:13:36.661 --> 01:13:37.321 Betsy Kahl: It, you're right. 01:13:37.506 --> 01:13:37.866 Right. 01:13:37.866 --> 01:13:42.636 But I think, at least for me, like, I think when we start to lead, 01:13:42.636 --> 01:13:47.646 maybe not being like, you have to pull out your skeletons, right? 01:13:47.821 --> 01:13:49.536 I, I was just like, here are mine. 01:13:49.566 --> 01:13:53.166 Like this is, these are, this is where I've failed. 01:13:53.166 --> 01:13:58.236 This is how I, like, even, even in some of my clinical work, you know, like the, the 01:13:58.236 --> 01:14:02.496 idea of self-disclosure therapeutically is, is a real touchy subject. 01:14:02.496 --> 01:14:06.096 And, you know, I, I don't believe in burdening your clients and stuff, but 01:14:06.096 --> 01:14:11.466 I think that sometimes I like to some degree being able to be, to not be 01:14:11.466 --> 01:14:15.726 afraid to share, you know, where Yeah, 01:14:15.906 --> 01:14:17.256 Rupert Isaacson: that's an interesting one, isn't it? 01:14:17.306 --> 01:14:22.536 The point of vulnerability, because let's say you're in, in the addiction world when 01:14:22.536 --> 01:14:23.946 you're going through anything like that, 01:14:26.016 --> 01:14:28.656 the only person who's qualified to deal with you. 01:14:29.061 --> 01:14:32.781 Is a therapist that is a recovering addict mm-hmm. 01:14:33.021 --> 01:14:38.421 Of the same thing that you've got otherwise they have nothing, you know, to 01:14:38.421 --> 01:14:40.431 show you other than a bunch of opinions. 01:14:40.431 --> 01:14:46.961 And in the course of that, in your average AA meeting everything is shared 01:14:48.341 --> 01:14:50.231 and it's interesting and it works. 01:14:50.891 --> 01:14:51.011 Mm-hmm. 01:14:51.491 --> 01:14:56.381 And yet it's relegated from the other therapeutic modalities. 01:14:58.016 --> 01:14:58.306 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:14:59.536 --> 01:14:59.826 Yeah. 01:15:00.401 --> 01:15:00.611 Yeah. 01:15:00.611 --> 01:15:01.931 That is interesting. 01:15:02.141 --> 01:15:08.146 You know, I had a a that makes me think of, I had a, a job interview, or I was, 01:15:08.146 --> 01:15:09.946 well, it was not probably a candidate. 01:15:09.946 --> 01:15:13.666 I think they were doing me a favor of a person who suggested I interview 01:15:13.666 --> 01:15:20.266 this job, but it was to work as a, a therapist for kids who again, had family 01:15:20.266 --> 01:15:24.346 members or people that really close to whose lives were touched by cancer. 01:15:24.736 --> 01:15:28.496 And I remember being in the interview and one of the questions they asked me because 01:15:28.496 --> 01:15:32.306 I had shared something about, you know, my history as a child who had a family member 01:15:32.946 --> 01:15:38.496 touched by cancer and ended up dying from cancer when I was still you know, I guess 01:15:38.496 --> 01:15:42.906 I was technically an adult in 19, but but anyways, from 12 to 19 it was a pretty, 01:15:43.266 --> 01:15:45.326 pretty significant presence in our lives. 01:15:45.386 --> 01:15:50.336 And and I rather being like, how is that going to impact? 01:15:50.336 --> 01:15:52.916 And the, the, the idea is like in a negative way. 01:15:52.946 --> 01:15:56.576 Like how, how you be that's gonna impact your work. 01:15:56.891 --> 01:16:03.041 Right, but not seeing it and as a strength per se, and I forget how the question was 01:16:03.041 --> 01:16:07.181 phrased, but I remember just being like, I, you know, I'm not sure, like I've, 01:16:09.431 --> 01:16:13.151 to where I am currently have processed the best I can and continue to work on it. 01:16:13.151 --> 01:16:16.121 I was like, but what I do know is that as a 12-year-old, I would've loved 01:16:16.121 --> 01:16:20.921 to have met somebody who had, could say, who would've been able to say 01:16:20.951 --> 01:16:25.631 like, yeah, when I was your age, this was going on, and it's really hard. 01:16:25.931 --> 01:16:29.771 But like, and even to see that they got through it, right? 01:16:29.771 --> 01:16:30.581 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:16:30.582 --> 01:16:30.592 Mm-hmm. 01:16:30.592 --> 01:16:35.141 Betsy Kahl: And, and I think, yeah, it's interesting why sometimes that, 01:16:37.421 --> 01:16:41.051 and I get too, like it's a fine line because there are people who do dump 01:16:41.051 --> 01:16:43.451 and maybe do put too much out there. 01:16:43.751 --> 01:16:51.401 And it's, it's again, we're not, it's not a one-upmanship of stories, right? 01:16:51.401 --> 01:16:55.961 It's not a suffering competition, but it's that, it's that connection 01:16:55.961 --> 01:17:01.421 and that that true empathy and like, not not trying to eclipse someone's 01:17:01.421 --> 01:17:06.641 experience with your own, but just being like, I get that this is hard and this 01:17:06.641 --> 01:17:14.711 is my experience of it, and, and for whatever I've gained from it, if I have 01:17:14.711 --> 01:17:16.511 something within that to offer you. 01:17:17.561 --> 01:17:17.831 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:17:17.831 --> 01:17:23.531 Well, I mean, you've been, you've been coy, but for the right reasons about 01:17:23.711 --> 01:17:27.491 saying you know, what your involvement was with having a family member that 01:17:27.491 --> 01:17:29.261 was, you know, touched by cancer. 01:17:29.951 --> 01:17:34.751 Is it all right for me to say, or to ask you to say who that was? 01:17:34.841 --> 01:17:38.081 Because I think knowing you as I do 01:17:40.331 --> 01:17:42.366 that acts through your heart. 01:17:48.551 --> 01:17:55.571 Spouted a wellspring of compassion that has, you know, informed 01:17:55.571 --> 01:17:56.831 everything that you've done. 01:17:57.521 --> 01:17:59.021 So why beat about the bush? 01:17:59.891 --> 01:18:02.861 Because there'll be people listening, there'll be people watching who 01:18:02.876 --> 01:18:06.341 are going through it, or their kids are going through it, you know? 01:18:07.271 --> 01:18:08.861 So is it all right to talk about that? 01:18:09.851 --> 01:18:10.241 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:18:10.241 --> 01:18:10.601 Yeah, yeah. 01:18:10.651 --> 01:18:14.401 Rupert Isaacson: So tell us who it was and, and, and, and how it affected you. 01:18:18.211 --> 01:18:18.661 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:18:18.661 --> 01:18:26.401 It was well it was my father and and he was, it's, I, I know I'm confused 01:18:26.401 --> 01:18:28.081 as to, to the story of it all. 01:18:28.081 --> 01:18:30.661 I, at least as I understood it, when I was 12, he was 01:18:30.661 --> 01:18:32.221 diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. 01:18:32.271 --> 01:18:36.171 My mom will sometimes now say it was just outside small intestine, 01:18:36.171 --> 01:18:41.051 but anyways, intestinal cancer and and he went through surgery. 01:18:41.156 --> 01:18:47.026 So he was at that time, 42 and and he had, you know, surgery and then was 01:18:47.026 --> 01:18:49.666 in remission for about seven years. 01:18:49.666 --> 01:18:56.206 And then when he was 49, it came back and had metastasized. 01:18:56.236 --> 01:19:00.426 And you know, I think less than a year he passed away. 01:19:00.426 --> 01:19:05.876 So it's been, it was 27 years on the 17th of this December. 01:19:06.056 --> 01:19:09.626 And so, so yeah, it's been, been a long time. 01:19:09.626 --> 01:19:12.776 So I was, yeah, from 12 to 19, I was 19 when he died. 01:19:13.216 --> 01:19:13.996 And. 01:19:15.166 --> 01:19:21.226 That definitely does in, in great and not so great. 01:19:22.426 --> 01:19:24.346 It just, it just, it does, it changes you. 01:19:24.346 --> 01:19:30.346 The, you know, you have your life narrative is very much like, pre-death 01:19:30.346 --> 01:19:32.386 and after death to some degree. 01:19:32.391 --> 01:19:32.501 Mm-hmm. 01:19:32.921 --> 01:19:36.041 And and so yeah, just how you make sense of the world, how 01:19:36.041 --> 01:19:38.171 you move forward is impacted. 01:19:38.561 --> 01:19:41.321 Rupert Isaacson: How do you make sense of the world and move forward? 01:19:44.111 --> 01:19:45.041 Betsy Kahl: I don't know. 01:19:46.511 --> 01:19:47.531 It's a daily thing. 01:19:47.531 --> 01:19:47.886 That's a great answer, right? 01:19:47.886 --> 01:19:48.166 Yeah. 01:19:48.236 --> 01:19:49.061 Rupert Isaacson: It's a daily 01:19:49.121 --> 01:19:49.601 Betsy Kahl: thing. 01:19:49.601 --> 01:19:52.841 And I think, again, you know, that can be terrifying. 01:19:52.931 --> 01:19:57.341 But again, or you can realize that like, yeah, every day 01:19:57.341 --> 01:19:59.126 is you're creating the story. 01:20:00.161 --> 01:20:00.641 Right? 01:20:01.151 --> 01:20:01.541 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:20:01.871 --> 01:20:08.351 Betsy Kahl: That, that, if I don't have such a grip, I mean, I was 01:20:08.351 --> 01:20:10.601 about to say death grip, which isn't that interesting, right? 01:20:10.601 --> 01:20:14.861 It's not, is it a grip that results after having death so close to you. 01:20:14.861 --> 01:20:15.311 Right. 01:20:15.591 --> 01:20:19.371 But like if you can just, yeah. 01:20:19.731 --> 01:20:25.851 Just see how it shows up and, and move with that through your day. 01:20:26.391 --> 01:20:28.971 'Cause there are days that are easy. 01:20:29.001 --> 01:20:30.861 There are days where it hits. 01:20:30.861 --> 01:20:35.121 There are days where it, you know, comes and gets. 01:20:35.121 --> 01:20:35.181 Yeah. 01:20:35.181 --> 01:20:38.121 But I think, I think, you know, you come, you make, you're 01:20:38.121 --> 01:20:40.101 consistently making meaning of it. 01:20:40.941 --> 01:20:43.461 And, and I think in the past I used to think, oh, you make, 01:20:43.971 --> 01:20:45.441 you know, meaning and it's done. 01:20:47.181 --> 01:20:47.691 Good job. 01:20:47.941 --> 01:20:55.801 But but now I think it is a, every day I make meaning of the loss and that is okay. 01:20:56.236 --> 01:21:01.756 And that is what's re required, at least of me, of how I'm, how 01:21:01.756 --> 01:21:03.466 I'm, how I carry it with me. 01:21:03.916 --> 01:21:06.556 And so, so yeah. 01:21:07.066 --> 01:21:08.296 And that it's never done. 01:21:08.356 --> 01:21:10.996 And I think when it's, I let go of that idea of thinking that there'd 01:21:10.996 --> 01:21:16.561 be a resolution or an end point or, or something, you know, but but yeah, 01:21:17.036 --> 01:21:21.686 and, and I think some of the meaning is yeah, how do I, how do I remember? 01:21:22.196 --> 01:21:26.396 And in that remembering re embodying of who my dad was, right? 01:21:26.396 --> 01:21:27.446 How do I remember that? 01:21:27.446 --> 01:21:28.646 How do I carry that? 01:21:29.516 --> 01:21:32.726 How do I keep that alive with me in some way? 01:21:33.196 --> 01:21:37.141 So, so yeah, I think that's, that's, I think how I do it. 01:21:38.326 --> 01:21:41.386 In some ways, well, and some ways not so well. 01:21:41.386 --> 01:21:45.616 Doesn't mean that I don't also highly recommend sobbing in the 01:21:45.616 --> 01:21:48.611 shower or or crumpling it or, yeah, 01:21:48.611 --> 01:21:48.731 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:21:48.831 --> 01:21:49.636 Betsy Kahl: Or yeah. 01:21:49.636 --> 01:21:52.516 You know, like that's all can be part of it too. 01:21:52.726 --> 01:21:53.706 But yeah. 01:21:53.706 --> 01:21:56.091 But I think too, well it being able to do presumably 01:21:56.241 --> 01:21:57.011 Rupert Isaacson: must be Yes. 01:21:57.401 --> 01:21:59.466 Betsy Kahl: Sharing that, that story, right. 01:21:59.976 --> 01:22:03.246 Because yeah, we can make meaning for ourselves, but then yeah, we 01:22:03.246 --> 01:22:06.216 have to, we heal through connection and community with others. 01:22:06.336 --> 01:22:08.526 So how 01:22:08.946 --> 01:22:11.376 Rupert Isaacson: have you, in the course of the work that you've 01:22:11.376 --> 01:22:12.876 done with the equine assisted work, 01:22:15.066 --> 01:22:17.286 encountered a lot of people who are dealing with grief? 01:22:18.486 --> 01:22:18.696 Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm. 01:22:19.506 --> 01:22:20.136 Yeah. 01:22:20.616 --> 01:22:21.426 Yeah. 01:22:21.666 --> 01:22:25.541 I mean, gosh, there's so much grief. 01:22:26.481 --> 01:22:30.561 Maybe not, not like, you know, the dead dad's clo, which is 01:22:31.131 --> 01:22:31.851 Rupert Isaacson: sometimes 01:22:31.851 --> 01:22:32.721 Betsy Kahl: interesting. 01:22:32.781 --> 01:22:35.601 You know, it was really, it's interesting sometimes those periods 01:22:35.601 --> 01:22:38.661 where you connect with someone quickly and you later on realize, oh 01:22:38.901 --> 01:22:40.701 wow, you, your father has died too. 01:22:40.701 --> 01:22:44.671 You had no idea why, but there's just some type of resonance. 01:22:45.151 --> 01:22:45.241 Mm-hmm. 01:22:46.201 --> 01:22:50.311 And but but yeah, I think there is so much grief in involved with, 01:22:50.341 --> 01:22:52.861 with horses that people bring. 01:22:52.911 --> 01:22:57.351 And I like things that I've heard, just, I think that there's a, 01:23:00.111 --> 01:23:06.581 I, there's so many friends who have horses or maybe got back to horses later 01:23:06.581 --> 01:23:07.901 in life and they're still grieving for. 01:23:09.941 --> 01:23:14.321 What they did, or, you know, how they feel they've harmed or 01:23:14.321 --> 01:23:16.061 harmed a horse in their past. 01:23:16.151 --> 01:23:16.481 Right. 01:23:16.571 --> 01:23:21.281 Or I think there's, there's grief work there, right? 01:23:21.551 --> 01:23:22.301 Um mm-hmm. 01:23:23.591 --> 01:23:24.881 There's, there's grief. 01:23:24.881 --> 01:23:29.891 If you've lost your heart horse, there's, there's grief of those things you wanted 01:23:29.981 --> 01:23:32.021 to accomplish, but maybe think you won't. 01:23:32.891 --> 01:23:33.221 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:23:33.351 --> 01:23:38.911 if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then 01:23:38.921 --> 01:23:43.911 you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system. 01:23:44.376 --> 01:23:45.686 of dressage training. 01:23:45.726 --> 01:23:54.296 If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step 01:23:54.366 --> 01:24:00.646 exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse 01:24:00.656 --> 01:24:07.176 of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional 01:24:07.226 --> 01:24:09.996 well being of the horse and the rider. 01:24:10.056 --> 01:24:10.796 Intrigued? 01:24:10.996 --> 01:24:11.856 Like to know more? 01:24:12.726 --> 01:24:15.556 Go to our website, Helios Harmony. 01:24:17.256 --> 01:24:18.946 Check out the free introduction course. 01:24:19.506 --> 01:24:20.026 Take it from there. 01:24:20.580 --> 01:24:25.740 Betsy Kahl: There's, yeah, there's so, so much, and I mean, maybe grief 01:24:25.740 --> 01:24:27.540 is not the correct word for it. 01:24:27.540 --> 01:24:31.260 I don't know, but, but I think there is, it's, you know, 01:24:31.830 --> 01:24:34.080 there's, there's a loss at least 01:24:34.350 --> 01:24:35.430 Rupert Isaacson: death of dreams, you know? 01:24:36.270 --> 01:24:36.750 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:24:37.470 --> 01:24:40.710 You know, I feel like I've had to do a lot of, of grief. 01:24:41.910 --> 01:24:44.670 Work but not be eclipse with like Stewart. 01:24:44.780 --> 01:24:47.090 You know, for Stewart is the horse. 01:24:47.120 --> 01:24:52.700 I've had since he was like just turned four and he's now probably like 25. 01:24:52.700 --> 01:24:56.030 And he is an amazing horse and I've learned, like, just did 01:24:56.030 --> 01:24:58.040 everything for me in anything. 01:24:58.045 --> 01:25:05.305 And and in 2022 from being a horse who could do what you name it, he'd 01:25:05.305 --> 01:25:11.635 do it like through like PF changes, like whatever, and willing to give 01:25:11.635 --> 01:25:14.125 it to anyone, trail ride, whatever. 01:25:14.155 --> 01:25:14.785 He was great. 01:25:15.035 --> 01:25:18.245 He got EPM and went from being like the strongest horse I ever knew to 01:25:18.245 --> 01:25:19.925 barely being able to stay upright. 01:25:19.925 --> 01:25:20.015 Mm-hmm. 01:25:20.855 --> 01:25:26.675 And, and I think there's grief for like, you know, what I would consider, but 01:25:26.675 --> 01:25:29.075 seeing how he's managed it and like now. 01:25:31.520 --> 01:25:35.390 Again, that daily meaning making of his loss and not being like, 01:25:35.390 --> 01:25:37.400 well the story's over, right? 01:25:37.400 --> 01:25:42.380 Because he's in his heart, he wants to show up and do stuff, right? 01:25:42.590 --> 01:25:42.710 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:25:42.800 --> 01:25:46.280 Betsy Kahl: So it's been like, okay, well where can we start? 01:25:46.520 --> 01:25:49.670 And so he started with like, when he, it was too much of a, I was 01:25:49.670 --> 01:25:51.080 worried he'd fall over on me. 01:25:51.080 --> 01:25:54.770 We did like from protective contact, like trick training, touch this 01:25:54.770 --> 01:25:56.810 target, touch here, go there, right? 01:25:57.170 --> 01:25:58.550 That's where we could start. 01:25:58.550 --> 01:26:02.930 And then from there it was, 'cause he had the in hand work kind of foundation. 01:26:02.930 --> 01:26:05.540 It was like, okay, well let's start playing with some of this. 01:26:05.960 --> 01:26:07.550 What can you offer today? 01:26:07.820 --> 01:26:10.610 And then it was like yeah. 01:26:10.670 --> 01:26:16.370 So never seeing, I'm getting off on a tangent here, but I think, like, I feel 01:26:16.370 --> 01:26:21.320 like for, with my relation with him, it's been this constant like creating 01:26:21.320 --> 01:26:23.630 and how much I sometimes want to just. 01:26:24.545 --> 01:26:27.875 Stay stuck in the grief and be like, okay, his story is over. 01:26:27.875 --> 01:26:28.955 I'm gonna retire him. 01:26:28.955 --> 01:26:29.735 He's done. 01:26:30.065 --> 01:26:31.985 And how he refuses to let that 01:26:31.985 --> 01:26:32.465 Rupert Isaacson: happen. 01:26:32.705 --> 01:26:32.765 Yeah, 01:26:32.765 --> 01:26:36.005 Betsy Kahl: because he's, you know, I had a friend who's like, you 01:26:36.005 --> 01:26:38.855 know, there are horses who, Winnie and she's like, he sings an aria. 01:26:38.855 --> 01:26:40.925 He has the most operatic like. 01:26:41.840 --> 01:26:46.490 Just across the pa, across the whole property will just, the sighting 01:26:46.490 --> 01:26:52.640 you roll in, just all ha like, cut, like, I'm here, what are we doing? 01:26:52.640 --> 01:26:54.080 And like, yeah. 01:26:54.080 --> 01:26:58.190 And it has been so interesting 'cause he's just keeps, has kept showing up. 01:26:58.190 --> 01:27:02.710 And yesterday the first day that I actually sat on him in like a, since he 01:27:02.710 --> 01:27:07.720 was sick, and, and he, 'cause he had just kept showing like he was strong enough, he 01:27:07.720 --> 01:27:09.580 wanted to, and I was just like, all right. 01:27:09.850 --> 01:27:12.490 Dusted off his old saddle, threw it on him. 01:27:12.490 --> 01:27:16.270 And, and it so didn't want to, 'cause I remember like, you know, earlier 01:27:16.270 --> 01:27:20.800 on in his recovery doing that and literally being like, okay, let's see 01:27:20.800 --> 01:27:23.020 if he can like, trot on the lunge. 01:27:23.020 --> 01:27:26.440 And he fell over and like being like, ah gosh. 01:27:26.440 --> 01:27:28.360 Like he can't be wr, you know? 01:27:28.750 --> 01:27:31.710 And, i'm not even saying like big circles, I'm saying like, just 01:27:31.710 --> 01:27:33.480 trot down the lungs, I fell over. 01:27:33.480 --> 01:27:38.460 And like, so being, doing, being willing to like, try that again. 01:27:38.460 --> 01:27:41.880 Put a saddle on him, not out of fear of like, ah, he is gonna hurt me, but just 01:27:41.880 --> 01:27:43.770 like, can my heart take being broken? 01:27:44.260 --> 01:27:46.300 If I open up to this possibility. 01:27:46.305 --> 01:27:46.375 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:27:46.810 --> 01:27:52.190 Betsy Kahl: And and he God, if a horse could strut out of a paddock with a sound 01:27:52.250 --> 01:27:58.340 like he was pumped and proud, and I know I'm putting human emotions on an animal 01:27:58.610 --> 01:28:02.690 anthropomorphizing, but like, but you know, it was just such a strong thing. 01:28:02.690 --> 01:28:06.770 And I just like got on and was just like, okay, like let's just walk. 01:28:06.770 --> 01:28:10.100 And he walked and like, I gather up the reins and from a walk you went 01:28:10.100 --> 01:28:14.840 into a counter and like just, and I was like, let's just do two or three steps. 01:28:14.840 --> 01:28:18.650 But like, you know, it was. 01:28:20.150 --> 01:28:21.830 So the story continues, right? 01:28:21.830 --> 01:28:25.550 And I find myself now battling this idea of like, is that, can 01:28:25.550 --> 01:28:27.290 I, do I want that to be the end? 01:28:27.860 --> 01:28:30.740 Because that was so great and I'm so scared. 01:28:30.890 --> 01:28:33.200 If we try again, what if it falls apart? 01:28:33.260 --> 01:28:33.710 Right? 01:28:33.740 --> 01:28:38.210 And I think that's where loss for me shows up is sometimes that fear of 01:28:38.780 --> 01:28:39.230 Rupert Isaacson: opening 01:28:39.320 --> 01:28:45.800 Betsy Kahl: up to life being beautiful, like knowing that it's not permanent. 01:28:46.520 --> 01:28:48.740 Like I hate that. 01:28:49.100 --> 01:28:49.940 I hate it. 01:28:50.210 --> 01:28:52.895 And, and there are some places where uncomfortable, but there are some 01:28:52.895 --> 01:28:55.655 places where oh, it's terrifying. 01:28:56.405 --> 01:29:02.335 And and so, so I wonder if that, you know, there's sometimes in 01:29:02.725 --> 01:29:04.825 that yeah, pro like wanting, 01:29:06.925 --> 01:29:08.365 not wanting to lose again. 01:29:09.610 --> 01:29:10.390 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure. 01:29:10.870 --> 01:29:13.690 But we don't go for, you said just now. 01:29:13.690 --> 01:29:15.130 And so the story continues. 01:29:15.400 --> 01:29:15.490 Yeah. 01:29:15.490 --> 01:29:20.710 And I was, I was gonna ask you why is it that horses help humans 01:29:22.930 --> 01:29:29.650 to deal with grief So, so well, because we know that horses do, whether it's 01:29:30.160 --> 01:29:35.140 getting us through breakups, whether it's getting us through deaths, whether 01:29:35.140 --> 01:29:41.200 it's getting us through family mess ups, whether it's our own addictions 01:29:41.200 --> 01:29:43.900 or whatever or fears, anxieties. 01:29:44.830 --> 01:29:44.980 Mm-hmm. 01:29:46.030 --> 01:29:51.160 Why do horses help us so much with this? 01:29:52.330 --> 01:29:52.780 Betsy Kahl: Hmm. 01:29:56.050 --> 01:29:59.800 I, I don't know. 01:30:00.040 --> 01:30:04.090 I would, my guess is that again. 01:30:05.275 --> 01:30:12.455 Being, being creatures who live in, in the present moment they don't stay stuck 01:30:12.455 --> 01:30:16.895 in the past where a lot of grief resides. 01:30:17.555 --> 01:30:19.535 And, and so they, they, maybe that's it. 01:30:19.535 --> 01:30:20.915 They've make us continue. 01:30:21.515 --> 01:30:21.755 Nurses 01:30:21.860 --> 01:30:23.045 Rupert Isaacson: just don't stay stuck. 01:30:23.195 --> 01:30:24.935 Yeah, I, I think you got it there. 01:30:25.310 --> 01:30:26.030 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:30:26.270 --> 01:30:30.120 And you know, I remember another good steward story when I had him and was in my 01:30:30.450 --> 01:30:34.870 twenties going through a, a breakup that ended up being a breakup after a breakup. 01:30:34.960 --> 01:30:37.060 Like, like, it was like we just kept breaking up. 01:30:37.330 --> 01:30:38.590 And it took me a while to learn. 01:30:39.090 --> 01:30:43.760 But but I remember I was like, yeah, we had had, we had a fight, it was 01:30:43.760 --> 01:30:49.420 like 2:00 AM and I was living at the barn in the apartment by the barn. 01:30:49.420 --> 01:30:50.890 And so Stewart was like, right. 01:30:50.890 --> 01:30:54.310 You know, just, just walk to his, his stable. 01:30:54.500 --> 01:30:58.630 And so I like, was like, I'm so sad, I'm gonna go see my horse. 01:30:58.630 --> 01:31:02.920 'cause like, you know, I'm like, we're gonna have a, a, my friend flick a 01:31:02.920 --> 01:31:07.000 national, you name it, and you roll all the great horse movies into one, I'm 01:31:07.000 --> 01:31:08.920 gonna have like, yeah, that guy sucks. 01:31:09.280 --> 01:31:12.365 Like this, this horse, it, you're 01:31:12.365 --> 01:31:13.870 Rupert Isaacson: gonna bring my drama to my horse. 01:31:14.095 --> 01:31:14.800 Betsy Kahl: Right, right. 01:31:15.040 --> 01:31:16.085 So, so yeah, I go. 01:31:16.775 --> 01:31:19.430 I walk in and he's like, munching some hay this stall. 01:31:19.430 --> 01:31:20.480 And he's like, oh, hey. 01:31:20.480 --> 01:31:20.570 Like, 01:31:20.570 --> 01:31:20.960 Rupert Isaacson: what up dude? 01:31:21.470 --> 01:31:21.740 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:31:21.740 --> 01:31:23.150 And he's just like, Hey, hold. 01:31:23.390 --> 01:31:26.660 So I like walk in the stall and he like walks over and I'm like, here it comes. 01:31:26.660 --> 01:31:28.430 Like, I'm just gonna hug. 01:31:28.850 --> 01:31:31.490 And, and he goes over and he's sort of like, okay, what's going on? 01:31:31.490 --> 01:31:33.230 And I'm sure he is just like, okay, she's sad. 01:31:33.230 --> 01:31:34.640 I'm like, let's do it. 01:31:34.850 --> 01:31:36.710 And he is like, you know, I've had him. 01:31:36.920 --> 01:31:39.680 And then I was just like, and now you hold me. 01:31:40.010 --> 01:31:43.520 And that horse we met like in the middle of his stall and he put 01:31:43.520 --> 01:31:45.710 his head down, like into my chest. 01:31:45.710 --> 01:31:47.390 And I'm thinking here, yep. 01:31:47.480 --> 01:31:48.050 He loves me. 01:31:48.230 --> 01:31:49.970 And he just headbutted me. 01:31:49.970 --> 01:31:50.510 And like, 01:31:53.840 --> 01:31:57.680 and I had been like, water working and 01:31:57.690 --> 01:31:58.920 Rupert Isaacson: I can't believe you did that to 01:31:58.920 --> 01:31:58.930 Betsy Kahl: me. 01:31:58.980 --> 01:32:02.160 He shoved me back and I like pump into the back of the stall. 01:32:02.310 --> 01:32:04.920 And I just stood there, somewhat stunned. 01:32:04.980 --> 01:32:08.430 And he looked at me and I looked at him and he just like blew out, turned 01:32:08.430 --> 01:32:09.690 and went back to eating his hay. 01:32:09.960 --> 01:32:13.320 And I was just like, and then I, it became very clear. 01:32:13.320 --> 01:32:14.760 It's like, oh, this is not. 01:32:15.950 --> 01:32:17.420 He is not interested. 01:32:17.690 --> 01:32:19.815 And like, you know what, this is all pretty, 01:32:22.670 --> 01:32:25.040 this whole mellow drama. 01:32:25.040 --> 01:32:29.810 I was trying to like, of it, like, I, I should just go 01:32:33.755 --> 01:32:34.295 my, yeah. 01:32:34.640 --> 01:32:35.180 You know? 01:32:36.020 --> 01:32:38.240 And, and maybe there would've been a worse, like, yeah. 01:32:38.300 --> 01:32:42.800 Like probably the mayor I had in, in high school would've just like mothered 01:32:42.800 --> 01:32:44.990 me, you know, like would've let me up. 01:32:45.230 --> 01:32:49.160 But like, that's not who Stewart is and that's Yeah, I know Stuart. 01:32:49.160 --> 01:32:49.340 Yes. 01:32:49.345 --> 01:32:49.555 Not him. 01:32:50.495 --> 01:32:55.030 And and and I think, yeah, and I think, you know, having a horse like Stewart in 01:32:55.030 --> 01:32:57.820 my life, especially through a period of my life, I went through so many changes 01:32:57.820 --> 01:33:04.030 of a horse who was just like, okay, like we're going like, let's not, yeah. 01:33:04.035 --> 01:33:04.125 Mm-hmm. 01:33:04.510 --> 01:33:06.820 You can be whatever you wanna be, but let's keep moving. 01:33:07.270 --> 01:33:08.010 And, let's 01:33:08.010 --> 01:33:08.580 Rupert Isaacson: keep moving. 01:33:08.580 --> 01:33:09.270 No, I agree. 01:33:09.270 --> 01:33:13.560 It's, it's like I, I think that one of the, so I was thinking dogs, like 01:33:13.950 --> 01:33:15.690 dogs do get involved in human dramas. 01:33:15.690 --> 01:33:16.950 Dogs die of broken hearts. 01:33:16.950 --> 01:33:19.550 Dogs are quite similar to us in many ways. 01:33:19.550 --> 01:33:21.440 And so sometimes can get stuck. 01:33:21.440 --> 01:33:22.550 Like we can get stuck. 01:33:23.150 --> 01:33:26.120 Horses don't, and they carry us. 01:33:26.120 --> 01:33:26.480 Right. 01:33:27.170 --> 01:33:32.300 Even if we're not riding them, they still carry us metaphorically. 01:33:32.960 --> 01:33:33.980 Betsy Kahl: Well, and they, they do 01:33:34.190 --> 01:33:35.480 Rupert Isaacson: another way of being. 01:33:35.480 --> 01:33:35.870 Right. 01:33:35.935 --> 01:33:36.285 Betsy Kahl: Right. 01:33:36.590 --> 01:33:41.780 And I mean, even, and they carry us, they move us right physically. 01:33:41.780 --> 01:33:45.860 Like if we are on moving our bodies, which is again, like at the core of 01:33:45.860 --> 01:33:49.760 it, why adaptive riding started Right. 01:33:49.760 --> 01:33:53.480 Is to get a movement we wouldn't otherwise be able to give ourselves. 01:33:54.050 --> 01:33:57.020 And and so, so yeah. 01:33:57.550 --> 01:33:59.200 I mean, and there is. 01:33:59.570 --> 01:34:03.290 You don't need me to tell you the, the healing that can come, the 01:34:03.290 --> 01:34:08.040 growth that can come through movement and the antithesis of stagnation. 01:34:08.040 --> 01:34:11.790 And so maybe that is where horses help us, right? 01:34:12.210 --> 01:34:12.815 Is that Yeah, 01:34:13.095 --> 01:34:14.135 Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I love that actually. 01:34:14.280 --> 01:34:14.490 Yeah. 01:34:14.490 --> 01:34:15.630 Horses move your body. 01:34:15.630 --> 01:34:16.140 They do. 01:34:16.290 --> 01:34:16.620 They do. 01:34:16.620 --> 01:34:19.080 Whether you are on them or not, they move your body. 01:34:19.110 --> 01:34:21.210 You, you could say yes, you have to walk your dog. 01:34:21.540 --> 01:34:26.910 And it's not that dogs don't encourage movement, but, and we all own 01:34:26.910 --> 01:34:28.770 dogs and, you know, love our dogs. 01:34:28.770 --> 01:34:31.710 So we're not disrespecting the dog. 01:34:32.130 --> 01:34:36.870 But there is, I think, this 01:34:40.320 --> 01:34:43.530 miracle that we are their predator. 01:34:45.480 --> 01:34:47.850 They are always skeptical of us. 01:34:47.940 --> 01:34:49.590 Like, are you, are you gonna eat me? 01:34:50.190 --> 01:34:52.530 And the answer is. 01:34:53.265 --> 01:34:57.495 Maybe if I was hungry enough and I needed to feed my children, 01:34:57.495 --> 01:34:58.875 I wouldn't be happy about it. 01:34:58.875 --> 01:35:04.335 But, you know, so when you have that kind of reality, I think, in a relationship, 01:35:05.115 --> 01:35:11.145 and then as you say, they move us, carry us, move us, help us transition, 01:35:13.905 --> 01:35:17.505 the story goes to the next chapter. 01:35:18.105 --> 01:35:18.255 Mm-hmm. 01:35:19.155 --> 01:35:23.295 And, you know, you've, you've touched on storytelling so much in this conversation, 01:35:23.295 --> 01:35:24.645 whether through theater, arts or 01:35:26.985 --> 01:35:28.935 you know, in, in so many ways. 01:35:29.320 --> 01:35:29.540 In 01:35:31.995 --> 01:35:38.145 your perfect world, where is the whole equine assisted field going? 01:35:40.185 --> 01:35:41.925 What do you want to see in the next 10 years? 01:35:42.975 --> 01:35:43.485 Hmm. 01:35:47.025 --> 01:35:47.865 Betsy Kahl: I. 01:35:51.420 --> 01:35:55.050 I would love to see 01:35:57.720 --> 01:35:59.880 more belonging. 01:36:00.300 --> 01:36:02.580 And, and by that I mean more, more 01:36:02.580 --> 01:36:02.850 Rupert Isaacson: what? 01:36:02.850 --> 01:36:03.270 Sorry? 01:36:03.420 --> 01:36:04.350 Betsy Kahl: Belonging. 01:36:04.505 --> 01:36:05.115 Rupert Isaacson: Belonging. 01:36:05.370 --> 01:36:06.450 Betsy Kahl: Sense of belonging. 01:36:06.455 --> 01:36:06.515 Okay. 01:36:06.820 --> 01:36:08.950 And by that I mean that 01:36:11.140 --> 01:36:16.810 there are many individuals, many, I, I can think, it's not hard for me to 01:36:16.810 --> 01:36:19.840 think of something like, name fix you think would make a great instructor. 01:36:20.440 --> 01:36:20.530 Mm-hmm. 01:36:20.630 --> 01:36:23.870 There are often people that, I mean, and maybe some are not in the 01:36:23.870 --> 01:36:27.260 time of life to pursue it, but some people like they're big obstacles. 01:36:27.260 --> 01:36:31.400 They don't believe that they can do it. 01:36:32.250 --> 01:36:32.940 And I. 01:36:34.485 --> 01:36:37.005 Strongly disagree and we'll, we'll express that. 01:36:37.255 --> 01:36:40.735 But yeah, that idea of like, okay, 'cause there are so many people that could 01:36:41.575 --> 01:36:44.335 provide, so like that we need more, right? 01:36:44.510 --> 01:36:47.875 Like, like there are wait lists and there are people who 01:36:48.155 --> 01:36:49.895 could, could help with that. 01:36:49.895 --> 01:36:51.305 And so I think if we, 01:36:54.950 --> 01:36:55.890 and by would 01:36:55.890 --> 01:36:57.210 Rupert Isaacson: everybody involved in horses? 01:36:57.720 --> 01:36:58.010 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:36:58.240 --> 01:36:58.530 Yeah. 01:36:58.550 --> 01:36:58.770 And 01:36:58.990 --> 01:37:00.900 Rupert Isaacson: offer something on the therapeutic. 01:37:00.920 --> 01:37:01.140 Mm. 01:37:01.280 --> 01:37:03.955 Betsy Kahl: And again, figuring out like, well, what it, what is it? 01:37:03.955 --> 01:37:06.235 Is it doing mounted work? 01:37:06.265 --> 01:37:07.345 Is it the groundwork? 01:37:07.345 --> 01:37:08.425 Is it great? 01:37:08.665 --> 01:37:08.735 Yeah, sure. 01:37:08.735 --> 01:37:12.385 And I think that's what's great was things are spreading out as far as what 01:37:13.495 --> 01:37:17.635 ways you could pursue certifications to be a practitioner, right? 01:37:17.635 --> 01:37:22.445 There's something now at a level for I think an entry point for so many people. 01:37:22.695 --> 01:37:23.055 Now. 01:37:25.470 --> 01:37:28.500 What's preventing them from going there? 01:37:28.500 --> 01:37:29.580 I, I'm not sure. 01:37:29.800 --> 01:37:33.760 But I think that as professionals, like the more we Yeah. 01:37:33.760 --> 01:37:40.420 Do like, encourage people to pursue this get curious about, yeah. 01:37:40.450 --> 01:37:44.320 Is the, is this the stretch place for them to step up here? 01:37:44.630 --> 01:37:46.310 So I'd like to see more belonging. 01:37:46.310 --> 01:37:49.760 I'd like to see, and I think that comes too from like places 01:37:49.760 --> 01:37:51.620 of different sizes, right? 01:37:51.620 --> 01:37:54.740 Like some people are comfortable working in big programs. 01:37:54.740 --> 01:37:57.950 Some prefer backyards, horses as well, right? 01:37:57.950 --> 01:38:05.000 So like just having more diversity within how things are delivered. 01:38:05.300 --> 01:38:09.230 And, and I think for me, what I would love to get involved with 01:38:09.680 --> 01:38:14.810 is that idea of not siloing. 01:38:16.220 --> 01:38:21.230 Recreation riding versus adaptive versus lesson programs. 01:38:21.230 --> 01:38:28.160 Like, I so value what I was able to experience growing up in a barn that, 01:38:28.250 --> 01:38:32.900 and it is hard, and I'm not gonna deny, but like valley riding doesn't, man, 01:38:32.930 --> 01:38:37.640 they have people who pay their board, who understand lessons run at these times and 01:38:37.640 --> 01:38:42.770 you ride with them and no one gets to own the arena and also understand that, yeah, 01:38:42.770 --> 01:38:47.210 we help out with the therapeutic program, but like, I remember growing up like, how 01:38:47.210 --> 01:38:52.390 rare is it to be like trotting around on your, your horse Sputnik and to look and 01:38:52.390 --> 01:38:57.400 see someone doing like Tempe changes and all kinds of cool stuff and like to, and 01:38:57.400 --> 01:38:58.900 to be able to have conversations with it. 01:38:58.960 --> 01:39:04.440 Like, you know, it's just, I think that again, as these. 01:39:05.955 --> 01:39:09.285 Worlds that all share common mission? 01:39:09.565 --> 01:39:10.075 Yeah. 01:39:10.075 --> 01:39:15.195 Just trying to, to do the, be do right by our horses and, 01:39:15.255 --> 01:39:15.805 Rupert Isaacson: um mm-hmm. 01:39:17.810 --> 01:39:18.030 Betsy Kahl: Be 01:39:18.380 --> 01:39:18.670 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:39:18.670 --> 01:39:19.590 I think I, I agree. 01:39:19.590 --> 01:39:19.870 Offer those 01:39:19.870 --> 01:39:20.150 Betsy Kahl: connections. 01:39:20.150 --> 01:39:20.655 Like Yeah. 01:39:20.670 --> 01:39:25.725 I, I would just, I love the idea of things not being, because then too, that's 01:39:25.725 --> 01:39:30.945 how a kid like me could grow up to be like, oh, well, I can be a horse owner, 01:39:30.945 --> 01:39:32.715 but I can also teach adaptive riding. 01:39:32.715 --> 01:39:36.525 I can also teach, like, none of this is mutually exclusive. 01:39:36.555 --> 01:39:38.035 And and that, 01:39:39.325 --> 01:39:39.960 Rupert Isaacson: that they're not really 01:39:39.960 --> 01:39:43.795 Betsy Kahl: that different when it comes down to it. 01:39:43.975 --> 01:39:48.805 Like, I mean, they are, there's technical skills. 01:39:48.805 --> 01:39:49.165 Right. 01:39:49.165 --> 01:39:49.465 But no, I, 01:39:50.360 --> 01:39:51.835 Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I, I, I think I agree with you. 01:39:51.835 --> 01:39:56.485 I think, I think that if, if, if, let's say you're at Pony Club 01:39:57.265 --> 01:39:57.655 Yeah. 01:39:57.655 --> 01:39:57.715 Or 01:39:58.075 --> 01:39:59.725 came up, I came up through Pony Club. 01:39:59.725 --> 01:40:00.595 Mm-hmm. 01:40:01.570 --> 01:40:06.250 And if in pony club it was, 01:40:08.620 --> 01:40:15.970 I dunno, mandatory to do some sort of service and that you could choose, there 01:40:15.970 --> 01:40:18.315 could be just a whole variety, you know? 01:40:18.385 --> 01:40:21.220 Well, like when I was growing up, I, I, I loved hunting. 01:40:21.220 --> 01:40:22.030 Mm-hmm. 01:40:22.120 --> 01:40:23.700 And one of the great 01:40:25.920 --> 01:40:29.700 fulfillments of my life in the last few years is that I've hooked up 01:40:29.700 --> 01:40:33.210 with this great hunt in Germany called the VA veil Bloodhounds. 01:40:33.840 --> 01:40:36.030 You know, they're not hunting animals. 01:40:36.030 --> 01:40:36.990 We hunt each other. 01:40:37.300 --> 01:40:39.070 But it looks like fox hunting. 01:40:39.490 --> 01:40:44.080 And we have every year an inclusive hunt. 01:40:45.850 --> 01:40:48.400 You know, you could make so many boar act like jokes of No, we are only 01:40:48.400 --> 01:40:50.380 hunting the autistic people so much here. 01:40:50.730 --> 01:40:51.240 But. 01:40:52.215 --> 01:40:56.525 What we are doing of course, is we are creating a day where all the people 01:40:56.525 --> 01:41:01.145 who are in the Horse Boy program can have a day riding to Hounds. 01:41:01.355 --> 01:41:07.925 And we do it on our friend Henrik and Getty's property, you know, who run 01:41:07.925 --> 01:41:09.515 that great horse boy program there. 01:41:09.995 --> 01:41:13.445 Because we can choreograph it and control it and so on. 01:41:13.835 --> 01:41:21.665 But the amount of horse preparation that goes into it is insane as you can imagine. 01:41:22.055 --> 01:41:26.435 But yet, you know, we have, say for example, Julian Beckoff, who 01:41:26.435 --> 01:41:30.215 is a young rider with spina bifida and hydrocephalus coming back and 01:41:30.215 --> 01:41:33.275 saying, I rode to hands, you know? 01:41:33.280 --> 01:41:33.420 Mm-hmm. 01:41:33.545 --> 01:41:40.715 And for me to be able to sort of open up that world with the 01:41:42.635 --> 01:41:44.765 assisted equine assisted world 01:41:44.765 --> 01:41:45.725 mm-hmm. 01:41:46.295 --> 01:41:51.035 Has a sort of particular resonance for my soul, so I get healed as well. 01:41:51.875 --> 01:41:51.965 Mm-hmm. 01:41:52.355 --> 01:41:56.495 And this, as you say, to silo it off, saying, well, if, if you're a fox hunter 01:41:56.495 --> 01:42:00.275 or if you're an inventor, or if you're a show jumper, you're a dressage writer or 01:42:00.275 --> 01:42:05.165 you're a therapeutic person, or you're this, you are western pleasure, your, 01:42:05.255 --> 01:42:12.275 you know, and that these things exist outside of human mental health, I think 01:42:12.275 --> 01:42:15.215 weirdly, that actually harms the horse. 01:42:15.275 --> 01:42:20.015 I think what horses want to do is interact with us in this kind of 01:42:20.225 --> 01:42:25.895 cross species, cross mammalian way, tribal horse culture that, you know, 01:42:25.895 --> 01:42:31.625 humans and horses evolved four to 6,000 years ago out there on the step. 01:42:31.835 --> 01:42:34.835 And that's how kind of how horses want to engage and that they, 01:42:36.020 --> 01:42:37.415 you, you talked about belonging. 01:42:37.415 --> 01:42:38.225 What is belonging? 01:42:38.225 --> 01:42:40.715 Belonging is tribe clan. 01:42:41.465 --> 01:42:44.495 And we are all members of a global horse tribe, right? 01:42:45.015 --> 01:42:50.955 Which includes our people who perhaps are, are more vulnerable. 01:42:51.345 --> 01:42:55.575 If we, I think one of the things I, I I, I love about observing horses 01:42:55.575 --> 01:42:57.375 that go into therapy programs is that 01:42:59.925 --> 01:43:01.695 they tend to do the job with enthusiasm. 01:43:02.995 --> 01:43:04.405 They tend to dive into the job. 01:43:04.405 --> 01:43:09.325 And I've never yet met a horse who said, oh, I don't do that because I'm 01:43:09.325 --> 01:43:11.425 actually, you know, a Grand Prix horse. 01:43:12.505 --> 01:43:14.125 No horse ever said that, ever. 01:43:14.395 --> 01:43:16.165 That's a monkey idea, you know? 01:43:16.675 --> 01:43:19.255 The horse says, I'm here, I'm available. 01:43:19.885 --> 01:43:23.605 You show me what it is you want from me. 01:43:23.605 --> 01:43:28.945 And if it is reasonable and doesn't make me feel horrible, I'll probably 01:43:29.215 --> 01:43:33.235 participate, you know, in a, in a, in the, just the same way you would. 01:43:33.895 --> 01:43:34.915 Mm-hmm. 01:43:34.966 --> 01:43:36.046 Coming down to love. 01:43:36.046 --> 01:43:39.016 At the end of the day, horses operate through love. 01:43:39.016 --> 01:43:40.606 Horses operate through emotion. 01:43:40.606 --> 01:43:45.586 Horses operate through that mutual support system that they have, even when they're 01:43:45.586 --> 01:43:48.826 being rude to each other that we do too. 01:43:50.236 --> 01:43:52.756 So in your perfect world, would it be like that? 01:43:52.756 --> 01:43:57.586 Would it be that say at pony club level or a four H or you know, whatever is 01:43:57.586 --> 01:44:06.916 the entry point for the kid that this is made front and center, rather than 01:44:06.916 --> 01:44:10.906 saying, well, the real stuff is over here. 01:44:10.906 --> 01:44:12.766 If you want to go play with the retards as well. 01:44:12.766 --> 01:44:13.756 Okay, you can do that. 01:44:13.756 --> 01:44:19.606 But you know, rather, that I think is the message we all got growing up. 01:44:20.716 --> 01:44:22.306 But what if it was different? 01:44:22.306 --> 01:44:27.796 What if it was much more front and center for the young riders coming 01:44:27.826 --> 01:44:31.516 in and validated in, in a weird way? 01:44:31.566 --> 01:44:35.886 Maybe you earned your points, you know, towards whatever system 01:44:35.886 --> 01:44:40.176 you are working towards with a certain amount of service hours. 01:44:40.656 --> 01:44:44.526 You know, it's interesting that that's not built in, isn't it? 01:44:44.616 --> 01:44:45.216 You know, that it's, 01:44:45.786 --> 01:44:46.176 Betsy Kahl: yeah. 01:44:46.176 --> 01:44:48.246 I'm not aware if it is or if it isn't. 01:44:48.306 --> 01:44:50.346 But I, yeah, certainly. 01:44:50.436 --> 01:44:57.146 And it's, it's definitely great to have, you know, more opportunities and, whew. 01:44:59.036 --> 01:45:03.836 I, you know, I, my, my life has not been a very linear thing. 01:45:04.106 --> 01:45:06.536 And so I, I don't know. 01:45:06.536 --> 01:45:09.416 I wish there was something as a very simple direct line to making 01:45:09.416 --> 01:45:12.866 things happen, but I think the more that, yeah, again, you open, 01:45:12.866 --> 01:45:17.816 you just have those possibilities strewn around, like, does this 01:45:17.816 --> 01:45:18.116 Rupert Isaacson: Exactly. 01:45:18.596 --> 01:45:22.526 Betsy Kahl: And people that, that instead of when someone comes to you and is like, 01:45:22.526 --> 01:45:28.106 I'm, I'm curious about this being that, that, that welcoming place as opposed 01:45:28.106 --> 01:45:34.706 to, well, you have to, you know, and it jump through, prove yourself first. 01:45:35.606 --> 01:45:37.526 In order to be able to, to do this, you 01:45:37.526 --> 01:45:38.486 Rupert Isaacson: must suffer first. 01:45:38.486 --> 01:45:38.576 Yes. 01:45:38.891 --> 01:45:39.956 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:45:39.956 --> 01:45:42.416 And I mean, yeah, you have to have some skills and some 01:45:42.416 --> 01:45:44.116 training, but like, but yeah. 01:45:44.116 --> 01:45:51.576 How do you make that again, not, not so, so, yeah. 01:45:51.666 --> 01:45:53.646 Not making people feel like they're, they're getting 01:45:53.976 --> 01:45:55.656 like, you know, sifted out. 01:45:55.866 --> 01:45:56.286 Right, 01:45:56.286 --> 01:45:56.646 Rupert Isaacson: exactly. 01:45:56.746 --> 01:45:59.886 Betsy Kahl: And and so, so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's 01:45:59.886 --> 01:46:01.536 complicated to say the least. 01:46:01.536 --> 01:46:02.496 I think it was simple. 01:46:02.496 --> 01:46:06.816 We'd have cracked the code, but maybe it is also simple and it's just sort of, 01:46:07.206 --> 01:46:13.096 yeah, just being, being willing to adapt and modify and improvise and change. 01:46:13.096 --> 01:46:17.996 You know, you have structures that are helpful to have, but within 01:46:17.996 --> 01:46:21.446 that there's a lot of space to be creative and and so, right, 01:46:21.446 --> 01:46:23.666 Rupert Isaacson: and I think your, your point earlier that if, if 01:46:23.666 --> 01:46:28.496 what we're primarily concerned with is the horse's wellbeing 01:46:28.556 --> 01:46:29.006 mm-hmm. 01:46:29.636 --> 01:46:34.016 Not in a kind of, we hate humans, we love horses, you know, sort off you humans, but 01:46:34.166 --> 01:46:40.256 more from the point of view of if we're expecting or we would like this horse to. 01:46:41.261 --> 01:46:43.631 Give wellbeing to a human. 01:46:43.631 --> 01:46:43.721 Mm-hmm. 01:46:44.121 --> 01:46:47.581 It's probably a good idea if that horse has wellbeing to give. 01:46:48.121 --> 01:46:51.871 And I think if, if, yeah, if our focus is there, then the rest follows. 01:46:52.351 --> 01:46:55.981 You know, as, you know, with our, with say for example, movement method or 01:46:55.981 --> 01:46:57.781 horse boy method, it's Follow the Child. 01:46:58.411 --> 01:46:58.531 Mm-hmm. 01:46:58.681 --> 01:47:02.191 And if one does that, it seems that everything else falls into place. 01:47:02.671 --> 01:47:06.271 But when one doesn't do that, things tend to get kind of complicated. 01:47:06.601 --> 01:47:06.691 Mm-hmm. 01:47:06.871 --> 01:47:09.271 I would posit it's a bit the same with Follow the Horse. 01:47:09.761 --> 01:47:09.821 Yeah. 01:47:10.451 --> 01:47:11.981 Where is this horse's happiness? 01:47:11.981 --> 01:47:13.181 Where is this horse's wellbeing? 01:47:13.181 --> 01:47:14.621 What does this horse really love to do? 01:47:15.051 --> 01:47:18.321 How do we make this horse feel as good in their body as we possibly can? 01:47:18.321 --> 01:47:20.061 Because that's gonna translate to the mind. 01:47:20.241 --> 01:47:21.591 And then if we do that, 01:47:24.411 --> 01:47:31.131 probably whoever comes into contact with that horse is going to benefit. 01:47:31.761 --> 01:47:32.001 Right. 01:47:33.206 --> 01:47:33.786 Betsy Kahl: One would hope. 01:47:33.796 --> 01:47:34.146 Right? 01:47:34.366 --> 01:47:34.866 One would hope. 01:47:35.161 --> 01:47:36.146 But yeah. 01:47:37.861 --> 01:47:41.371 Yeah, I, I think that sounds, sounds good. 01:47:41.431 --> 01:47:45.571 So, so, yeah, I'm not sure what that perfect world looked like. 01:47:45.751 --> 01:47:45.841 Well, 01:47:46.201 --> 01:47:49.081 Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I can, I can help people with that because 01:47:49.171 --> 01:47:52.741 I know this person called Betsy Carl, who lives in Bend, Oregon. 01:47:52.831 --> 01:47:57.341 And I know that if people go to Betsy, Carl 'cause I've watched her at work 01:47:57.611 --> 01:48:05.261 over quite a few years she will help them to understand how to put that 01:48:05.261 --> 01:48:10.451 equine wellbeing into their horses, which will then help them through 01:48:10.451 --> 01:48:17.411 a variety of methodologies, give that wellbeing to monkeys, whether 01:48:17.411 --> 01:48:19.271 juvenile monkeys or adult monkeys. 01:48:19.631 --> 01:48:19.721 Mm-hmm. 01:48:19.991 --> 01:48:26.111 So I think people should actually reach out to you, Betsy, as a mentor. 01:48:28.676 --> 01:48:35.606 Whether it's on the equine, ie dressy end, or on the therapeutic 01:48:35.606 --> 01:48:37.436 end or, or points in between. 01:48:39.296 --> 01:48:41.066 Is it all right if people contact you? 01:48:41.996 --> 01:48:43.466 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, always. 01:48:43.466 --> 01:48:46.766 I always tell people contact me, and then I just sit and wait. 01:48:47.126 --> 01:48:47.456 Like 01:48:47.456 --> 01:48:48.761 Rupert Isaacson: how would they contact you? 01:48:49.496 --> 01:48:50.216 Betsy Kahl: Let's see. 01:48:50.216 --> 01:48:56.426 I have they can contact me at betsy@wonderhorseranch.org. 01:48:56.906 --> 01:49:01.106 That's the nonprofit that I had in Texas, but haven't figured 01:49:01.106 --> 01:49:02.126 out how to do it here yet. 01:49:02.436 --> 01:49:06.666 But that email still works and that's probably the easiest one to spell. 01:49:06.846 --> 01:49:07.596 I also have that 01:49:07.596 --> 01:49:09.031 Rupert Isaacson: at Wonder Horse Ranch org. 01:49:09.031 --> 01:49:09.271 Yeah. 01:49:09.611 --> 01:49:09.831 Org. 01:49:10.091 --> 01:49:10.511 Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm. 01:49:12.501 --> 01:49:12.791 Yeah. 01:49:13.261 --> 01:49:13.551 Okay. 01:49:13.866 --> 01:49:18.666 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so listen, viewers and listeners, if you want to learn 01:49:18.756 --> 01:49:21.306 Horse by Method, movement Method, takin. 01:49:21.816 --> 01:49:26.196 As we call it now, which is all the groundwork as it's as its own therapy 01:49:26.496 --> 01:49:32.436 and our LIOs system of dressage, and also just the other stuff that Betsy can bring 01:49:32.736 --> 01:49:36.986 to the table all by herself without any involvement in me of which there's plenty. 01:49:37.256 --> 01:49:42.236 I do thoroughly recommend that you reach out to her as a mentor. 01:49:42.236 --> 01:49:44.456 She's been in this for many years. 01:49:44.456 --> 01:49:47.906 She has produced amazing horses that I've seen. 01:49:47.906 --> 01:49:52.346 She's brought healing to the lives of so many people, including my own son. 01:49:53.426 --> 01:49:55.016 I can't recommend her highly enough. 01:49:56.156 --> 01:50:00.986 You have a mentor up there in that box above me, although probably in YouTube 01:50:00.986 --> 01:50:02.516 she's gonna be here or here or here. 01:50:02.936 --> 01:50:06.446 But I'm, I'm sort of gonna hedge my bets by pointing in all four directions. 01:50:07.006 --> 01:50:09.086 Contact this person because she 01:50:11.456 --> 01:50:16.046 can do the job and can show you how to do the job in so many modalities. 01:50:16.256 --> 01:50:17.396 Also within the path. 01:50:17.981 --> 01:50:19.691 System and, and others. 01:50:20.351 --> 01:50:25.481 So it's Betsy Carl, is it Betsy Carl at Wonder Horse org? 01:50:25.481 --> 01:50:28.001 Betsy Kahl: No, it's just B-E-T-S-Y. 01:50:28.121 --> 01:50:28.601 At, 01:50:28.781 --> 01:50:30.311 Rupert Isaacson: at, it's just Betsy. 01:50:30.311 --> 01:50:31.121 At, okay. 01:50:31.126 --> 01:50:31.266 Betsy. 01:50:31.511 --> 01:50:31.841 Betsy Kahl: Betsy 01:50:31.841 --> 01:50:32.891 Rupert Isaacson: at Wonder Horse. 01:50:33.371 --> 01:50:33.821 Betsy Kahl: Yep. 01:50:34.211 --> 01:50:35.666 Rupert Isaacson: ranch.org. 01:50:35.666 --> 01:50:36.041 Betsy Kahl: Dot org. 01:50:36.701 --> 01:50:39.731 Rupert Isaacson: betsy@wonderhorseranch.org, 01:50:40.031 --> 01:50:43.331 reach out to her let her mentor you. 01:50:44.111 --> 01:50:44.981 She's a good mentor. 01:50:47.051 --> 01:50:47.321 Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm. 01:50:48.101 --> 01:50:48.701 Yeah, sure. 01:50:48.731 --> 01:50:49.331 Please do. 01:50:49.511 --> 01:50:52.061 Yeah, I, I mean, if I can help, I will. 01:50:52.091 --> 01:50:52.571 Right? 01:50:52.671 --> 01:50:53.271 Yeah. 01:50:53.331 --> 01:50:54.351 I, I don't, 01:50:56.511 --> 01:50:58.311 I am always. 01:50:58.881 --> 01:50:59.991 Curious about Yeah. 01:50:59.991 --> 01:51:01.401 What people are seeking. 01:51:01.461 --> 01:51:05.121 And again, if what I've experienced in my life can be supportive 01:51:05.121 --> 01:51:06.771 of any way, I'll share that. 01:51:06.991 --> 01:51:07.561 Happily. 01:51:07.981 --> 01:51:14.891 But I, I will say, even if it's not with me that I do believe that learning 01:51:14.891 --> 01:51:19.781 the classical groundwork system is life changing for both you and your equines. 01:51:19.991 --> 01:51:25.621 And and always you will always have some way to Yeah. 01:51:25.651 --> 01:51:28.901 Connect and create something magical with them no matter the 01:51:28.901 --> 01:51:31.871 weather, no matter their ability. 01:51:31.871 --> 01:51:32.201 Right. 01:51:32.201 --> 01:51:33.251 It's just something that 01:51:33.251 --> 01:51:35.946 Rupert Isaacson: absolutely no matter whether you have an arena or not. 01:51:36.131 --> 01:51:36.431 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:51:36.431 --> 01:51:36.971 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:51:37.151 --> 01:51:41.111 Betsy Kahl: And, and no matter what, even if something is going poorly, it 01:51:41.111 --> 01:51:46.631 is just, it's just the, the foundation you can return to, to, to in hand 01:51:46.631 --> 01:51:46.901 Rupert Isaacson: work. 01:51:46.901 --> 01:51:47.711 Absolutely. 01:51:47.861 --> 01:51:48.611 It is the key. 01:51:48.941 --> 01:51:49.241 Betsy Kahl: Yeah. 01:51:49.241 --> 01:51:51.401 Rupert Isaacson: And Betsy can teach you, so go to her. 01:51:52.316 --> 01:51:53.636 Betsy Kahl: Well, my horses can teach you. 01:51:53.636 --> 01:51:56.786 I was lucky enough to have some great horses that taught me and and 01:51:56.786 --> 01:51:58.556 they are happy to share as well. 01:51:58.706 --> 01:51:59.706 So, yeah. 01:52:00.096 --> 01:52:00.696 Thank you. 01:52:02.766 --> 01:52:03.726 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's been a pleasure. 01:52:05.616 --> 01:52:06.816 Betsy Kahl: Yes, it has. 01:52:08.526 --> 01:52:10.296 Rupert Isaacson: I look, I look forward to the next collaboration. 01:52:11.496 --> 01:52:12.576 Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah. 01:52:12.576 --> 01:52:13.596 We'll see what happens. 01:52:13.836 --> 01:52:14.106 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:52:14.106 --> 01:52:14.346 We'll the 01:52:14.406 --> 01:52:16.086 Betsy Kahl: story continues, right? 01:52:16.266 --> 01:52:17.166 Rupert Isaacson: It does indeed. 01:52:19.026 --> 01:52:21.546 Alright, my friend, I think we're gonna have you on again in a few 01:52:21.546 --> 01:52:24.266 months and go into some more depth. 01:52:24.266 --> 01:52:28.226 I'd like to, I'd like to actually go into more into the theater arts side. 01:52:28.736 --> 01:52:28.766 Mm. 01:52:28.766 --> 01:52:29.216 Yeah. 01:52:30.506 --> 01:52:30.896 Yeah. 01:52:30.956 --> 01:52:35.846 We barely touched on it this time, so maybe we'll do a, a follow up. 01:52:36.626 --> 01:52:36.836 Sure. 01:52:36.896 --> 01:52:37.556 You up for that? 01:52:37.561 --> 01:52:37.641 Yeah, 01:52:37.671 --> 01:52:37.961 Betsy Kahl: yeah. 01:52:38.061 --> 01:52:38.481 Always. 01:52:38.701 --> 01:52:40.711 Yeah, reach out, let me know. 01:52:41.401 --> 01:52:42.511 Rupert Isaacson: All right, good. 01:52:42.841 --> 01:52:45.691 And then hopefully I'll be seeing you soon. 01:52:45.864 --> 01:52:48.984 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:52:49.524 --> 01:52:54.424 If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend. 01:52:54.434 --> 01:52:58.604 It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of 01:52:58.604 --> 01:53:00.484 Equine Assisted Stuff out there. 01:53:00.634 --> 01:53:03.714 And if you're interested in more conversations, you might want to check 01:53:03.724 --> 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