Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
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It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World, Betsy.
Carl, who is joining me today, is an old, old, old compadre.
We used to run new trails together our ranch in Texas, and we couldn't
have done it without Betsy.
Betsy was
the mainstay, the rudder, the lifeblood, the, you know, all the good things.
And one of the reasons why Betsy was all these things was not just her
knowledge of horses, but the fact that she had come a really interesting path
through path, what used to be nara.
She's a senior path instructor, which.
Was interesting for us because people normally see horse boy as the sort of
antithesis the opposite of path, and in some ways that's not unfounded.
And at the same time as working with us, she continued to work at the local large
path center in Austin, Texas, not just as a service provider, but also as a
senior instructor in the PATH trainings.
So it was very interesting that she really bridged that gap.
She's also very accomplished, dressage rider and trainer
and all round horse person.
So if you look up the word awesome in the dictionary you actually find a picture
of Betsy next to that next to that word.
So, Betsy, thanks for coming on.
You now live in Bend, Oregon doing interesting things in the Rockies.
Thanks for coming on the show.
I, I want to delve into your knowledge of where you feel equine
assisted work was when you first got into it, where you feel it is now
and where you would like it to go.
So over to you.
Betsy Kahl: Well, thank you.
Yeah, it's been a fun journey the time I've shared with you and the
time we had in Texas together.
And yeah, for, for PATH people who may be listening.
I'm an advanced therapeutic writing instructor with the CTRI certification
as well, so we've been going through quite a lot of acronyms and other
things in the, in the industry.
But yes so for those who care about letters after names,
that's what it would be.
And I believe I was certified, oh, lordy, back in like 2007.
2006.
Sounds about right.
And so it's been quite some time that I've, I've carried that.
Certification and worked in and out and in and out of the
industry as people often do.
So I'm not sure where, how much you want to know or where you wanna
start with any of that, but I could,
Rupert Isaacson: I think what I'd like you to do is shoot from the hip.
Okay.
You, you, because you have a really good overview of
what's good about each system where they probably have more in common
than they might think they do.
Mm-hmm.
And you yourself have had to tread the line of melding, you know, the different
methodologies together, whether it was working, you know, in a path context,
but informed by horse, boys say, or tacking, which you also helped me.
Develop, which we should go into.
And the other way around, you know, working in horse Boy and, but informed by,
I guess, the orthodoxy of the mainstream as, as well as being on the edge.
It, it's a really interesting, I, I, I dunno, anyone else really who's tro Yeah.
That path, you know, so I, I, I think it's really over to you.
I, I'd like you to sort of fire Okay.
Talk about what was good, what was bad, what you'd like to see change,
what you'd like to develop more of.
Just go.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Well, one thing that came to mind as you were talking was, obviously
I didn't well, not obviously but I didn't just, you know, one day be
like, oh, I wanna be a path instructor.
So I was very fortunate growing up to, we had a a in the public
park system near where I lived.
There was a riding facility that was part of a nonprofit park system
and offered riding lessons, boarding and also therapeutic riding.
So, I grew up riding there, starting around age 12.
And so the horses that I learned to ride on were all
exceptionally talented, very kind.
Some, maybe not as kind, but all just generous horses that could
walk, trot, canner, and jump.
And these were the horses that would one day a week also work
in adaptive riding as well.
When they offered it.
So I think even just growing up there and seeing it was sort of a normal
thing that your horses that would work in therapeutic programs, could also
teach, could also compete in local shows, could also do all of the things.
Right.
And yeah, it
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't niche from the get go.
Betsy Kahl: No, no.
And it was a thing that as I've worked in different programs and
different places and kind of traveled from I've taught from New Hampshire
to Ohio, Texas, and now Oregon.
So I mean, as you kind of move across the country you start
to see different things of.
What is and is not sort of the assumed normal.
And and so I started to realize like, oh, well this is unique.
You know what?
Valley riding, which is still hands down, I say one of the best places to learn.
And so Valley
Rupert Isaacson: Riding,
Betsy Kahl: valley Riding Incorporated.
Yeah.
It's run by Valley
Rupert Isaacson: Riding Incorporated in Cleveland, Ohio.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyone who's looking to learn to ride or if you have kids that wanna ride go there.
Bus horses.
Okay.
Actually one horse that when I was teaching there.
Is still, I found him for the program and he's still in the program,
this little pony named bumper.
I mean, gotta love him.
So, and bumper was Mr.
Jack of all trades too, you know, walk, trot, can or JUMP
did Adaptive, did all the things.
And I apparently still is doing all those things.
So, so yeah, it was, it was just very normal to, to believe
a horse could do all of that.
And not every horse wanted to work in the adaptive program or,
but that was fine too, right?
They all had a place, they all had their purpose.
And so that I think was where that.
Idea of like, yeah, a horse is not limited.
Like
Rupert Isaacson: there
Betsy Kahl: actually will, if you offer the right support and the right
timing, like will want to show up.
They want to work and feel good about their jobs and so
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, they enjoy variety like a human does,
Betsy Kahl: basically.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, and again, because it was in a public park system, you know, there
were trails so you could easily just go out from the arena down the trail.
You know, you had all, all the bonuses that come with a public park system,
like, you know, you never knew what would be around the corner sometimes or
Rupert Isaacson: would be
Betsy Kahl: hanging over the fence.
But but yeah, it was, it was lovely.
And so.
So that's where I first encountered adaptive writing too, is when they
started offering that program.
I started volunteering 'cause I was probably, you know, 14 is the age where
path allows you to start to volunteer.
And and that's how I became exposed to it and always enjoyed it, but didn't
go after, pursue that in college.
So there was a brief, so I guess from like 12 to 18 I did nothing but eat, sleep,
breathe horses while maintaining grades.
So I could continue doing that.
And then went off to college, was out of horses for a while and I
think probably started getting back into it around like 24 ish and just
go back into taking riding lessons.
And then I went, decided I wanted to pursue getting certified.
And so I went to get certified at a place in New Hampshire.
They did like a three month instructor intensive, I suppose.
And also a place though where their horses worked in summer camps, would
walk, trot, can, or jump, you know.
So they were also horses that in addition to doing adaptive
riding, could do a variety of other programming and so yeah, was at
horsepower in Temple, New Hampshire.
And that's where I found my current horse.
One of my current horse is Stewart.
He was there as a I don't even know what sail, sail horse.
So I took him on as my training project while I was getting certified.
'cause that was something their program had you do as well was
like not just go through the.
Technical aspect of teaching and how you're supposed to structure a class
and all the, you know, safety standards that are very important as well.
But in addition to that, they wanted to make sure that you were teaching
riding lessons to, at least for me, I was teaching lessons to the public
and also had your horse training project too, so that, you know,
depending on what you could offer, that you were bringing a horse along.
So Stewart was my, my training project that ended up becoming my forever project.
So, so, so I think, yeah, I, yeah, there might be some things in there.
You wanna,
Rupert Isaacson: well, the, the, the, I think there's
something that we should just.
Quickly cover, which is that what you did at college?
So you're a social worker?
Betsy Kahl: Well, not in college.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Right.
So,
Betsy Kahl: so I had a Yeah.
But I currently am a social worker and Yeah.
Which I think massively
Rupert Isaacson: informs your equine assisted stuff.
So just talk through what you did at college and how you became a
social worker, and then how that informed what you did with horses.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
In college, oh, I thought I wanted to do pre veterinary medicine.
I quickly realized that was not for me.
Perhaps I was not up for the academic rigor, we can put it that way.
And then did a semester in business and then changed to English and
ended up with a degree in English.
And so post-college, I just dabbled around in theater arts for about a year.
Cleaned horse stalls for part of that time too, and a year after my mom said,
what are you doing with your life?
You need to get, get it together.
Sounds
Rupert Isaacson: like fun to me.
I dunno.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, it was fun.
You know, I, I love the theater arts and has, that's been a huge, it's
had a very healing place in my life.
Mm-hmm.
And and so, so yeah.
But my mom was concerned that I would just be doing shows and
serving tables and cleaning stalls.
And so she's like, what are you gonna do?
And I didn't know what one did with the degree in English besides perhaps teach.
And so I then entered a Master's in Secondary Education program.
I was in that for about.
Eight months of the year that would it take to complete before I dropped
out for a variety of reasons.
But then then yeah, I was back into just theater, picking up
random teaching theater arts jobs.
Eventually that led to the Great Lakes Theater Festival School
Actor Teacher Residency program.
So for two years I traveled with another actor and we taught Shakespeare
in the schools and stage combat and a bunch of other things, as well
as other classic theater pieces.
And then that after that was when I was like, what do I wanna really do now?
And that's when I went and trained to be a therapeutic riding instructor,
was certified at the advanced level after that program in New Hampshire.
Got my first job at a path center with my first horse was hemorrhaging money paying
for board and trying to survive on that.
Some other gigs came my way.
I got a three week stint on a cruise ship being a magician's assistant.
And then another three weeks doing a opening act for a show in Vegas.
And so during that time, like I lost that first job at the Path Center
due to some conflicts, but while I was on the cruise ship, got the job
offer to become the riding instructor at Valley Ridings Breville stables.
So did that.
So then finally got a full-time job where I could afford to live, have my
horse, and was teaching public riding lessons and volunteer coordinating
for their therapeutic riding.
And then about 2, 2, 3 years into that was when I started to
question, okay, what is next?
And realizing that a lot of what I was seeing in adaptive writing to ended up
being more social, emotional, behavioral health, and as well as showing up
sometimes in my public writing lessons too and in different degrees and just working.
Being more supportive for people who were bringing their own
anxieties or things to, to lessons.
And you know, the mental health field was not too foreign to me.
My dad was a psychiatrist, so it's sort of something that I had always been aware
of, but not necessarily social work.
And so I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but knew something mental healthy.
I went to volunteer at an organization called The Gathering Place in Cleveland,
which offers, free support for individuals, families, and friends who
whose lives have been touched by cancer.
'cause that's something that's very important to me.
And at that volunteer interview, ended up getting me a job as
their animal camp coordinator.
They were doing a summer camp where they partner with a
variety of different animals.
One week being horse week, but other weeks being different animals
from puppies to kittens to wild animals through the natural history,
rehabilitate, rehabilitation.
And so that program was run by a social worker and a child life specialist.
I think also, oh man, was she also a social worker?
I'm not sure.
But but anyways, those two women were phenomenally impactful in this
idea of, wow, okay, we can take.
Mental health, but not make it a drudgery, not drudgery is a strong word.
Make it, make it enjoyable.
Right.
Not make it feel so clinical.
Right.
And that we can do it in a variety of environments and that we can trust
that if we set up a supportive space with, you know, supportive adults,
that and these novel experiences, kids will be able to start to, you
know, treat themselves in a way.
You kind of put all the raw materials out there and and how, how wonderfully healing
that could be and and, and doing it in a way that promoted not just yes, you can.
Process what it's like to be a kid whose life has been touched
by cancer, who has had a family member's lives touched by cancer.
You can also while doing that, build mastery in another area, right?
So they were learning.
Some pretty cool things they could do to support these animals
and develop that relationship.
And then at the end, you know, of each week there would be a family
day where they could showcase what they've learned, right.
And and really be seen as the expert on something.
And so, so yeah, that job really got me jazzed about the idea of
combining mental health with animal assisted therapies or activities.
And so yeah, then I went and became a social worker.
And then
Rupert Isaacson: why social worker though?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that's quite, that's quite niche.
Like, there, there were other, other, you could have become a psychologist.
You could have become a psychotherapist.
You could have, you know, there are other avenues you could have gone.
And a lot of people within the sort of equine assisted world do.
Why social
Betsy Kahl: work?
I.
Went and talked to different department heads at Cleveland State University
and tried to get a feel of what the different perspectives were.
And this is at least my understanding on it.
It's not to say that's the only way to look at it or that it's the right
way to look at it, but you know, when I knew I didn't wanna do a doctorate,
you know, so that was kind of like, for me, it was like, okay, I wasn't going
to go try to do the PhD in psychology.
Certainly not medical school.
So, so then it was what can you have a master's degree in and still
practice clinically, which took it to counseling or social work.
And I, for my pers to feel on it, was that counseling was going to be more on
I more on yeah.
Like kind of analyzing and really.
Like the inner part of the per or sort of siloed on the person.
I'm not saying that's the way it always is but social work really looked at
like, okay, how does this person interact with systems in their environment?
Right.
And, and I liked that idea of just felt less pathologizing even
though you're still diagnosing.
But, and also the people who I met again through animal camp being social
workers, I really respected and valued how they seemed to work and be able
to balance, you know, that mental health piece, but also figuring out.
How you can adapt and modify environments and systems and so, so
yeah, it was never just about like that person who's having a problem.
It was like really looking at through a wider lens.
And, and I think that's a little bit more of an orientation that social work
tends to draw from is again, like, you know, looking through systems, looking
at the person in relation to their environment, looking at various ways you
can create change that can end up being supportive, not just, you know, trying
to get the person to change themselves.
And so, so that's, that's where I grab why I gravitated towards it.
And yeah, so then outta grad school, I got my first job at a larger
community mental health center.
And, they contracted with schools.
So I was like a traveling school-based therapist as
well as doing home-based work.
And one of the schools I ended up being placed at was a school that specialized
in providing like an alternative education setting for kids who were not
thriving in more traditional settings.
And many of these children were diagnosed with autism amongst other things.
And they ended up offering me, instead of contracting with the agency, they
offered me a full-time job to come and be their school-based therapist.
So I ended up doing that for about three years and then moved to Texas.
So, so anyways, right from going to grad school and social working and starting
trying to get my clinical hours, there wasn't a lot of, you know, I, I left
the university with my graduate degree thinking, okay, I'm gonna start making
like animal camps all over the world.
Like, but, or all over this area.
But there wasn't really like a job for that.
And so you're just kind of getting your clinical work in whichever way you can.
You're at supervision hours.
So there were not a ton of animal opportunities.
But thankfully once I started working at that school, I was
allowed to sort of create some stuff.
So while I couldn't bring horses to the classroom we ended up
incorporating Shakespeare program.
So I had the actor teacher friends from my old job.
We worked and brought a theater arts residency week there.
And that was really, really awesome to see how Shakespeare could be performed as well
as other classic pieces with the variety of, we had, you know, ages, I think, ooh.
Four to like 21, 22 at that school.
And some speaking, some or yeah, speaking some non-speaking students
and how we could, yeah, how theater was something that no matter what, how
you communicated you could perform and how, how timeless those stories were.
That was super cool.
And then we also did a therapy dog program, so different people who had
therapy dogs came and we did like a.
Biweekly, I think eight session therapy dog thing, which worked out so well.
Then I ended up adopting my golden retriever and getting him
certified as a therapy dog, and he became the school therapy dog.
So I don't, lots of different weird things, but then when I moved to
Texas, that was what I told myself.
I was like, okay, now I can get back into trying to meld
horses with, with social work.
I'm back.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
I met you I remember actually at this dressage barn.
Mm-hmm.
White fences in Mainor, Texas, which was the next town on from Elgin, Texas, where
we were based and we were there for.
I can't remember if we were doing taking a,
Betsy Kahl: I think you had Christophe Hess there as a C.
That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
We brought Christophe Hess.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Who,
Rupert Isaacson: for those listeners who don't know who Christophe Hess is
or was, he was at that time the head of education for the fn, which is the
German equivalent of the USEF or the British Horse Society or whatever.
And we brought him over for a clinic.
That's right.
And he, we organized for him to come over to the barn where you
were boarding your horse, I think.
And I ran into you and I had one of those gut feelings.
I was like, oh, this person is one of those people that can
like, do the lot whether it's on the horse side or the human side.
And I remember we had this initial conversation, where I sort of said,
would you kind of like to come check out the interesting shit that we do?
And you kind of went, well, maybe, you know, and then, yeah, that's
Betsy Kahl: my classic response.
Rupert Isaacson: And then you, even when
Betsy Kahl: Cody proposed to me, I was like,
Rupert Isaacson: Cody, Cody again.
FE listeners that, dunno, Betsy is, is her husband.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I could see that.
Yeah.
But then you came out and you kind of looked around and went, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And next thing I knew you are running our program.
The, I remember, I remember recognizing this kind of versatility in you,
which was sort of a gut feeling.
'cause I didn't know your background at that point.
I just saw that you.
Rode really well and had this kind of open heart and inquiring mind.
And then I subsequently found out about your, you know, therapeutic and social
work background before we get to how you kind of melded the Orthodox of the
Unorthodox, which is path with Horse Boy.
And then out of that helped us to build Athena, which is now called, which
we'll talk about why the name changed.
Before we go there, I'm interested in your take on theater arts.
Hmm.
Why is this kind of crucial?
Why is this so good to have a background in theater arts if you're going to deal
with equine assisted stuff, and then you, you, you subsequently went from there
talking about Shakespeare for people who don't speak, which is counterintuitive
because Shakespeare's all about language.
So just talk to us a little bit about that before we go to the next stage.
Betsy Kahl: Okay.
So I think the first one was theater arts and how it can be
helpful for people in mm-hmm.
Equine work.
I, well, I don't know.
I guess I've never thought about how that's informed my equine
work as much, but I think one of the ways it could be helpful is
that it's.
It's really about listening and responding, if any, and, and
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Betsy Kahl: To some degree, right?
So if you're doing any type of performance, so much of it is
well being in the moment, right?
And, trying to truly understand what whoever you're sharing the
stage with or whatever even is happening audience wise, right?
Like
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Betsy Kahl: You know, my theater career has been, their theatrical
stuff has been from, from Yeah.
Doing, you know, some stuff I'd like to forget in various youth theaters too.
Not I like to forget, but like, things that, like if it, someone would
say like, oh, we found this clip.
I'd be like, oh lord,
Rupert Isaacson: let's call it a learning curve.
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah.
Not because I feel like the performance event, but like,
I'm talking like I don't know.
We did like a, I, my senior in high school, I was in the tine rabbit.
I was one of the cool bunnies, so I'm like dressed in this giant rabbit
costume, like singing the funny bunny rag and hopping around, and I thought
it was like the coolest thing ever.
You know?
How
Rupert Isaacson: does the funny bunny rag go?
Betsy Kahl: Do you want the choreography too?
Yes,
Rupert Isaacson: please.
Betsy Kahl: You, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You can't just put that out there and not do it.
Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let me see.
I don't know if I have enough space.
I can do it with this camera angle, but, and there's two
other bunnies with me, right?
I was, okay,
Rupert Isaacson: we one on each side.
Are you the middle bunny?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, of course.
And this again, if you have the video, I might not have it right, but so
we're telling the vine rabbit how to be a, a real rabbit, you know, and
it goes just perk your ears up and hear the bead and tell those rabbit
feet, you can't see my feet too.
Bounce along and don't be such a drag
start and never stop.
Just wind your hopper up and do the funny bunny rag.
Hey.
And there's more.
But I think that's a sample.
Rupert Isaacson: Now you were absolutely on pitch.
Oh, on key and on point there.
Betsy Kahl: Well, as, as you know, the funny bunny rag, so, well, I could have
just made that up, but, but you know, I think there's just that ability to
kind of surrender and have fun too.
Right.
Because like no one want.
So, so yeah, doing things like that, working with other human beings to
tell and create and imagine stories.
And then also,
yeah, it requires, you'd have to be present to
surrender to the emotions that are showing up.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Maybe
Betsy Kahl: not fighting, but moving through them.
Mm-hmm.
And I think
Rupert Isaacson: that's,
Betsy Kahl: that's what, when I said like, yeah, know theater really saved me
or healed me, I think that's what it was.
It was something that, not
Rupert Isaacson: fighting the emotion, but surrendering to it and moving through it.
I love that.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Thank you.
And it's, it's a safe container though, right?
And, and something that I always found weird was sometimes you'd be like, oh,
it is so brave to be like, to do that or on stage I, that's so courageous.
And I remember thinking like, I don't, for me, I disagreed 'cause I felt experiencing
allowing myself to experience emotions and theater felt so much safer than life.
'cause I knew where the story was going.
Rupert Isaacson: That is, I think what I was trying to get to, I think
that, I don't think that, I know that in the experience that I've had with
Shamanism, for example a shaman takes on a role and they take on the role as the
healer, but they also take on the role as your suffering and many other roles.
Yeah.
You.
As the person one, as the person going for healing also takes on a role.
And that these roles are not like negative masking, trying to
damp down your authentic self.
It's more like the type of practical masking that you might do, for example,
to get in camouflage or to actually put a mask on so that someone didn't recognize
you in a situation where if they did recognize you, you might be in trouble.
Or let's say you're going to hunt a deer.
It might not be a terrible idea to put on a disc and, and a pair of antlers.
Mm-hmm.
It's all about agency.
The idea of, of putting on roles.
I think I've definitely seen this over the years for the
populations that we work with.
Mm-hmm.
When they learn how to do this in.
Exactly as you said, safe containers, like a show
or a, a play date or a therapy session.
I like to call them play dates, you know, where they can then trust
that the people around them, the facilitators, you, me, will go with it.
This then translates to a certain confidence that they can go out in the
world and function even while suffering from imposter syndrome or fear or anxiety
or all the things that we all suffer from.
But of course, if you're on the spectrum or going through some
mental health crisis situation, it's going to be much more acute.
So I, I love the fact that you.
Can bring theater arts to that.
Do you feel that something along the lines of theater, arts, role playing,
shape shifting should be a part of the training for this kind of work?
Because, because you're so good at it, right?
I mean, you've ran our program, but you, you ran our program and
I watched you, I observed you, and you would just be able to meld
yourself to not just the individual, but to the groups that came in.
Mm-hmm.
And bring out the best in them and get them doing things that they, you know, I
remember seeing a, a group of kids from
the
foster programs.
In Austin and I observed a bunch of times you being able to get
through that anger and that hurt and bring them to creativity,
self-advocacy through playing roles.
Why isn't this taught?
Why, why, why?
Why isn't this, whether it's with horses or whether it's not with
horses, why isn't this a sort of standard thing in mental health stuff?
Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, I mean, there are avenues of mental health, I
suppose, where you lean into that.
I mean, there's, you know, and there's even some treatment modalities that
emphasize, you know, the various roles or various parts within a person.
But but as agree, yeah, but as I as you were talking about like this, and to, to
tie it back to adaptive or equine assisted services, like in a way you kind of,
it's, it's almost already there, right?
The structure, because like when you're studying, you're, you're
like the instructor in training.
Like you literally are like labeled or you show up as instructor, what have you.
Right?
And so, so I mean, the parts and the performance is almost already there in
a, you know, even I remember during my the, the women who ran the program, boo.
Martin, who is, was a big name within the Path community as well as one of
the founders of equine facilitated mental health, that like offshoot
little side, not side program, but you know, like they have the, like
the equine assisted learning, mental health, vaulting, you know, these
little subsets you can get certified in.
But Boo was one of the people who kind of pioneered pushing that into the industry.
And that's why I chose to study with her.
But I remember her having this thing of being like, you're
not just teaching, right?
There are people who are listening.
There are people who not parents want to hear.
Like you're, when you're teaching, it's not just to the student.
Like think of the volunteers, think of the people watching, think
of who might be coming through.
And she's like, it, everything is for everyone.
And, and I don't, and in that made a lot of sense to me of being.
Maybe it did translate in my brain like, oh, this is, this is, yeah.
The arena is, is a stage as well.
And that was, and sometimes the
Rupert Isaacson: arena is a stage as well.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that's, that's an interesting comment.
Betsy Kahl: Okay.
Yeah.
But I mean, it kind of, if you think about it, because I think
Rupert Isaacson: you're dead, right?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
There's people who watch, like even when I'm riding, you know, you
ride your own horse or working with your own horse, there are always.
You know, everyone's got a side eye on everybody sometimes at farms.
But yeah, yeah, what you bring, what you put out there does ripple through and
and that was even you know, the large program up in Texas that I worked at, it
was set up like open, very open space, you know, as you kind of have the luxury
of that and the climate that is Texas.
But you know, so people walking down aisles could have direct lines
of sight to what was happening.
There were chairs set up along the perimeter, right, where people would
sit you know, literally on the nights I would teach the veteran programs.
We had our little like Britney Spears mic headsets and what
you said was getting amplified.
So why not make it something that could be that a person, whether on the horse or
sitting in a chair or walking alongside supporting the rider that they could all.
Get something from it.
Right.
And I think that's always been sort of the, the things I, I think of is,
yeah, kind of what you're saying is like, we create these containers, but
what can you experience in a container?
And I see my role as like, how do I start to create those
transitional bridges, right?
So that always thinking like, how does this riding or horsemanship groundwork
thing, how do you can, how can you find that personal connection and how
does that then support maybe showing up differently outside or believing
that there's more that you, there's more you can safely show outside.
Of this space.
So yeah, I don't know.
Maybe that, yeah, I haven't really thought of that.
So anyways, point of why, why this could be helpful in training.
I think we've just said a few things could be helpful, but what theater does
is it requires you, again, like I said, to be present, to truly listen, to go
off of what you're getting, not just to stay, you know, stuck in one way.
I mean, sometimes when I show you, yes, you have your script,
right, but how you say it will be changed based on what's happening.
And and also to kind of continually be thinking, okay, yes, and
this yes and this, right?
That's like this typical improv rule of like, yes.
And, but, but theater is one of those places where the second
you start thinking, no, no, no, everything falls apart.
Right.
You, you've just Right.
No, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Improv show must go on.
It's so interesting.
I started working in the last year with a group in London called
Chicken Shed who are a theater that started in the chicken shed.
Mm-hmm.
And now are a big deal.
They put on shows that are like Broadway quality.
You shouldn't be able to put those shows on really with amateur junior
actors who are various degrees of special needs, and yet they do.
And we might be putting something together with the Horse Boy story with them.
I've observed how they work and it's so interesting now they, they have this,
degree program through the university system in the uk where I think they're the
only people that offer is it theater Arts
for special needs in the special needs context
mm-hmm.
As a degree program.
And it's kind of genius because of course the people who are teaching it are
people who've come through their programs and their performances, who themselves
have various types of special needs.
Mm-hmm.
And one sees that it works
so well that when you go to see one of those shows, it's not that you forget
that the people have special needs.
It's that the special needs that the person has enhances the show.
I do feel that there is.
Naturally and for very good reasons, a sort of desire within the equine
assisted thing, within any kind of mental health thing to try to help
people to integrate with the mainstream.
And that is a worthy cause and it is necessary.
And at the same time,
it's not the, it's not the mainstream.
Mm-hmm.
You know, one is outside of the mainstream defacto in the work that we do.
And the difficulty now is it's, as it's becoming more accepted and better funded,
is that one is expected to now kind of present it in a mainstream sort of a way.
And it's nice that we are all coming from the hippie margins into the mainstream.
You're a bit more mainstream than I was 'cause you were with path,
but, you know, I, I could not have been more marginal and now suddenly.
Governments and insurance companies and so forth are paying for our services.
And now we have to more and more, you know, for, tick those boxes
and present ourselves as if we were mainstream and for, for all the
reasons that, you know, are inevitable and good and at the same time that
the magic is not in the mainstream.
And I think to a large degree you personify that, which is that, you know,
you've, you, you, you still perform, I know you still perform of what you
perform, you know, just in performances outside of anything to do with
equine, anything to do with, you know,
and I got it.
It's like, yes.
That is the ammunition that gives you the ability to show somebody else how
to perform in a way that serves them and does not drain them, so that they can
then use that performance to go into the mainstream world, into the shark infested
waters of neurotypical humanity and swim.
Mm-hmm.
So you are a senior path instructor, you're a horse boy instructor.
You're also a helped us to get what was called the Athena Program going what's
now called the Takin Program going.
What in your perfect world would you like to see from theater
arts performing Arts in this?
Equine assisted world as a sort of a basic curriculum.
It would like, it wouldn't matter whether you were going path horse boy, Al
whatever, there would just be a sort of a
psychic theater thing that ought to be, that ought to run through the whole,
it should just be a theme that runs.
What, what would that look like and how would it be taught in your perfect world?
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Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, this is, that's a big question.
What I liked with how Athena evolved and now to Keen at least
my interaction with it, right?
What I liked was that.
It was a framework of the classical master's system that, that you were
applying to improving quality of horses to be able to do the therapeutic work.
Right?
And, and so.
I think it was kind of looking at, yeah, what, what is the story of the system?
Right.
Okay.
Well, it was based in military training.
All right, well, where is that showing?
I think when you're kind of spitballing these ideas, okay,
well it should, who, how does this connect then with what's happening?
And so it was sort of like, okay, military training.
Okay, veteran, like for me it's like connected to veteran programming, right?
And then being like, yeah, there is a bit of a gap because sometimes we're
limited on courses that are, can successfully partner under saddle.
Right.
For a variety of reasons, especially when you're dealing with adults and if
your center has predominantly, you know, some tough scrappy ponies, but not, or
some pretty older arthritic courses.
Right.
And so, so yeah, I think it was just kind of considering like.
How can, how can we take this classic story much like a classic
Shakespearean text, right?
How do we cast it in this new environment, right?
And, and who, who steps into these roles and why can't, why can't we make the
veterans the stars of the, the show?
Right?
You know, why, why can't they and what, you know, be, have their
co-star of the horse, right?
And have them create something, a new story together, right?
A new story about movement.
About, about, yeah, about possibility, right?
And and so I,
I think for any equine program, maybe what theater offers is that idea of.
You don't have to
come up with something totally new.
It's like, how do we find a new lens to look at what is known?
How do we get creative in how, what we can add to the stories, right?
And, and that I think is what was so cool to see evolve with the first
group of veterans who helped, you know, so, so generously as well
as the horses we partner with.
They were just generous to go along with this idea of, hey, like let's try this.
Let's try this thing, right?
And let me create the scene, right?
Here's the history, here's why it came on, you know, and what they would bring to it.
The, some of the best practitioners of the work ended up being, the veterans
who worked who flew helicopters, right?
'cause they understood this idea of thinking and multi planes of movement.
Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.
And
Betsy Kahl: balance and when things, you know, were on and off and how Yeah.
And, and I think, you know, what they brought to it and how they
shared that knowledge with the group, with the horse, with myself, right.
That took my understanding of, of the work to a totally different level as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Betsy Kahl: And and there, yeah.
And so
I think it's that curiosity, right.
Of, and creativity and embracing, being willing to step slightly into the unknown.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: And, and I don't know if there's really a prescriptive.
Thing that it could look like, because each program in
place has their own strengths.
And, and maybe that's where the challenge is, you know, is we're all trying,
something that I'm always constantly like checking in with myself is, you know,
when I have with your feeling for whatever reason, not enoughness or depleted or just
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: Stuck like in the bog of sometimes looking out and being
like, oh, that thing, if I can do that thing, I'm going to feel like if
I can be that person or that program or that thing or that training.
Right?
And, and sometimes that is the thing to do, but sometimes you also just thinking
of being like, okay, well what is it?
What am, what am I trying to resolve for myself by seeking that out?
And do I already possess.
What is needed to do that?
Right.
Do I already have that?
And, and yeah.
Maybe that
I, I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but I
Rupert Isaacson: well, I just wrote down, I wrote something down.
Yeah.
As you were wrote a bunch of things down actually, but you, a few minutes ago
you said create a new story together.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if that's kind of the missing thing that
actually unites all of the supposedly opposing, of course they're not.
But people might think that they are equine assisted modalities
or disciplines or whatever.
Where what is, what is it that we're all actually doing?
We are creating a new story together.
But it's not explicitly said.
So one can get
diverted or
Yeah, yeah.
Negatively diverted by details of saying, well, I, you know, I do this modality,
I do horse boy, or I do Athena, which is now taking, or I do path, or I do al or
I do, you know, life manship or whatever.
And actually what we're all doing is the same thing.
What, what we're all doing is I think you, you put your finger on it.
We are creating a new story together, but there might be ways in which
to do that, that are quite a bit specific for certain population types.
That mean that if people were to carry over from one discipline to another,
one modality to another, one niche to another, they could do it very happily if
they kept front and center in their mind.
We are creating a new story together, whether it's for the horse or
whether it's for the human, you know?
And I know that that isn't sadly how many people in our industry think.
But I have noticed that there's a growing impatience with the
law, the lawmakers and the gatekeepers of funding and so on, with our endless
factionalism where we bicker with each other, you know, in the same way that
people in the horse industry do, because we shouldn't really be doing that.
And I've, I've often wondered, you know, what is the common denominator between
us all in the equine assisted world?
I mean, you could say it's healing, but I love this idea.
You, you said it, I'm, you know, I'm quoting you back to yourself.
Create a new story together.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're going to do that, then it might be a good idea to have some tools
you know, whether it's theater arts, whether it's old master's training,
whether it's neuro neuroscience, whether it's, presumably it's all these things.
Mm-hmm.
And that we as the professionals in this field,
surely could naturally
share our trade secrets, experiences, and.
Sure.
You know?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yet, yet we are still hovering on the brink of it.
I was just I was just last month at a gathering in Ireland hosted paid for by
Horse Sport Island, which is amazing.
'cause Horse Sport Ireland is affected with the U-S-D-U-S-E-F or it's D fn.
It's the BHS.
And they have correctly measured that the equine assisted field is
the only really growing field in the equine world at the moment.
And they wanted us all from a bunch of different disciplines
or modalities to present what we did without selling our thing or
trashing the other person's thing.
And it's really interesting because we had a bunch of people in the same room.
Who had to behave themselves, who normally are really at loggerheads with each other.
Hmm.
And because they weren't allowed to present that way, what came across
was quite a coherent, multifaceted front of, we helped to create a
new story together for people.
It just might look a bit like this, or it might look a bit like that depending
on what type of person you have.
Mm-hmm.
You've been in it for a long time.
You, you're an instructor in our modalities.
You're an instructor in path.
How should it change?
Like what, what should happen to, to, to bring us all
together for the greater good?
Betsy Kahl: Well,
I think.
I think man, it's being, being able to,
there's, there's, there's, it's so hard to say in an abstract
way how it should change.
But I think in just st
being, I, organizationally, I'm not sure, you know, I'm not really working at that
level perhaps someday, but individually I can, I suppose I can speak on that
and perhaps there's something there.
I think individually it is
really that self, self-awareness, knowing.
Knowing what your strengths are.
Being okay with that, right?
Like being okay with not having to be everything is something
that can be difficult, especially in a work environment where
there is so much variety, right?
And so much different stuff and that it is okay to much like with horses, right?
Like, you know, you have your specialist in PO you have your
specialist in certain things.
They might not love your specialist for jumping, right?
Like the horse said, stay up and say, yeah, I will teach
anyone how to do this thing.
'cause I love it.
Right?
I think that it is okay for you as an individual to know, right?
What, what feels maybe not forever, but for now, where, where do I
feel like this is where my talents.
Thrive and shine, right?
Like that, I feel very secure and safe in working this way.
Mm-hmm.
Not to say that I can't stretch, right?
It's not to say to play comfortable.
It's not to say to play small, but it's to say like, this, this is I
within what I can do, this is within what I can tolerate right now.
This is within this in a place that I can work where I can, you
know, meet the needs of the people who show up in that, you know?
And so, so I think sometimes that's helpful is just to feel like you can
honestly assess that for yourself or get help from someone to assess that for you
and understand identifying that what it is, where you do your best work and, and
then yeah, where are those stretch places?
And where do you find the support to grow in that area?
And I don't know if, you know, that's something that space was
made for that inquiry for me.
It immediately, you know, sometimes you look at the job descriptions
of a ride center and it's like you will do everything right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: And for everyone.
And, and yeah, there is, you know, resources are thin or, or
with horses that come in, right?
And like, that resources can be tight and we want that.
We so desperately want that to be the reality, but that might not be it.
And what do we destroy as we try to force that?
Mm-hmm.
And so, yeah, I think as we allow, again, individuals to, in every
aspect, from horses to the instructors, to participants, just to be.
Able to show up as who they are and build from there.
Right.
Not try to be something else.
Or pretend you like it.
Rupert Isaacson: It's tricky in the horsey world, isn't it?
Because Yeah.
It comes as, you know, we've inherited it from the military.
And military is about conform and conform, although there's a threat of
violence and that this still underpins the way in which we relate to each other
within the horse world, whether it's the therapeutic world, sport world, or any
other world I feel that has to change.
And I do.
I, I'm optimistic.
I feel it is changing.
Mm-hmm.
But we can't really do the job.
Yeah.
Unless, yeah, we.
Actually appreciate each other, you know?
Betsy Kahl: Well, yeah.
And, and I think appreciate what each person can offer.
And I think that's where, you know, maybe this is where art is.
So in whatever way it shows up in your life for me, theater, arts, equestrian
art circus art, you know, that, that there is, you appreciate people 'cause
the thing doesn't belong to you.
Right?
Like, nobody owns the idea of horses.
Nobody owns the idea of therapy.
Like, that's so
Rupert Isaacson: true.
And,
Betsy Kahl: and so I think if you just realize like you are, you have
this finite time to be part of this story, to contribute what you can, and
maybe it'll change the world, maybe it'll just impact someone's life.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: But like.
That's enough, right?
Isn't that enough?
And and so I think that's, you know, there is no, art doesn't create a creativity,
and art is the place that I love to go back to because there is, there's no place
for hierarchy or power or that, right.
And it,
Rupert Isaacson: except that the art world is full of that, but Yes.
Betsy Kahl: Well, but to some degree, but not at its core, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Yeah.
You
Betsy Kahl: know, not, yeah, sometimes you're like in the sake of survival
or trying to push yourself or brand or be, or like have whatever, right?
Mm-hmm.
But at its core, right, it's.
It's not you, you couldn't, if you could sell, truly sell it like you
because you know, like there as someone who works with that, like
there is a thing, like it's that, it's that intangible quality of Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Of
Betsy Kahl: that in the moment connection that feel that attunement, that,
Rupert Isaacson: that, that's, I think we could put a name on it.
I, I think the name is love.
If you're trying to tell a story, let's go outside of horses for a moment.
Mm-hmm.
That story is only going to
have any resonance if it somehow is about love or, or, or good
stories are love stories and love doesn't have to mean romantic love.
It's, you know, the infinite expressions of love.
Mm-hmm.
Because what we know I think is that life is love.
The tree loves the.
Mycelium network.
The mycelium network loves the tree and the soil.
The soil loves the tree and the mycelium network, the rain loves.
Or you know, I, I, I,
this is where I think working with horses is
healing.
For those of us that do it is nature always wants to bring
us back to a state of harmony.
There is the glass half empty way of looking at the world.
Just say, no, nature is entropy.
And it's always in decay.
Yeah.
But then when it decay, it re constitutes itself and creates Betsy, or, you
know, one of your horses or the person that you're working with or that tree.
And then when that tree dies, it becomes another thing.
But that isn't a bad thing.
That's a loving thing actually.
If when you die, you become the soil and then you become.
The thing that, yeah.
So
I do feel it's about love and I do feel that horses bring us back to that, even
when we're almost willfully forgetting it and using the horse, projecting the horse
as a way to compete with each other or
mm-hmm.
Cause each other harm in some way.
You know, when we, when you and I helped teach other pioneer Athena, you
know, we, we, we then got sued by some people who said, no, we're Athena.
And actually we were both Athena at the same time.
It just, like, literally within a week of each other, we'd done the
trademarks, but one in North America, one in Europe, and the European ones
approached us with such aggression.
It was so interesting to me.
I was like, well, why didn't you just talk to us?
You know, of course we would figure it out because we are
all here for the same reason.
We, we all are here to try to lovingly help people.
Like my son who's sitting on the other side of the court run courtyard right now.
'cause I killed him with too many chores today.
He, you know very well, Rowan.
Mm-hmm.
I do feel that that has to change.
If we as a sort of equine assisted world are going to evolve to the next
stage where, you know, like you as a social worker, where we're being
prescribed in the same way that doctors are now prescribing nature, thank
God, you know, to people and so on.
The stuff that actually works.
Hmm.
As long as we're so obviously factional with each other, people notice and
then they don't take us seriously because they go, you're just a bunch
of idiots arguing with each other.
A bunch of horsey snobs.
We've gotta break out of that.
We've gotta stop that.
And I think that you are one of those people that I've observed who
just automatically treads that line.
When we with Horse Boy began, we were astonished at the
aggression with which path.
And Nara at that time met us.
And I dunno if you remember this, you know, back in 2018 I was giving
a talk at Denver University and I talked about that and I said, you
know, I was saddened by it as an autism dad 'cause it made me feel that.
Really, the people in the field just weren't actually, were more concerned
with protecting their territory than with helping people like myself.
And,
yeah.
What I didn't know is that the board of Path was sitting in the audience
at that time, and we got that email saying you know, well, should we talk?
And I thought, well, this is great.
Yes, absolutely.
Let's talk.
And then I asked you to be on that call because you were, you know, a
path person and an US person too.
And on that call there was the, the person who was in charge said, well, you
know, we've never bad mouthed, do you?
We've, and I remember saying, you know, why are we even having this conversation?
Of course you have, you know, you have, but the, the real reason
is why, like, what is your beef?
Truly, what is your beef?
We'd like to know, and I dunno if you remember, they said,
well, we think you are dangerous.
And we said, well, why?
Why?
Why are we dangerous?
And they said, well, 'cause of the back riding.
'cause you ride with a kid in front of you in horse boy.
And we said, yeah, but look, if it's dangerous, I'm gonna touch wood here.
But why have we not had an accident in back then it was
15 years, now it's 20 years.
Like why?
What is this based on?
Where is, where is this danger that you're talking about?
And then they said, well, ah.
Because when we did it, we had accidents.
And then the penny dropped.
And I was like, I see.
Yes, of course.
Right?
Because you don't prepare the horse's back, you don't prepare the
horse, you don't prepare the rider, you don't prepare the whole thing.
So therefore, yes, if you did it, it probably would be dangerous.
So you should stick to what you do.
We should do what we do and we should compliment each other.
And Athena kind of grew out of that really.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I have, I, you know, I, I think that's, I can't imagine how, how painful that
must have been to be very excited, you know, when you were first realizing what
helped Rowan and wanting to offer that.
It's, it's probably very painful.
I don't know that exact, it was
Rupert Isaacson: surprising.
It was, but yeah.
I
Betsy Kahl: mean, surprising, but yeah, like it's any type of, any type
of messaging that can be for me, you know, and I've been in situations,
work situations, outside work words.
The idea when the, the.
The takeaway you get, like what, who you are and what you do is wrong.
That, that can be really hard to hear.
And I don't always handle that feedback well.
Right.
But I wish I could
Rupert Isaacson: say I did.
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah.
I, I, it's something I'd like to get better at, but I think,
and again, you know, ultimately we can't, we can kind of try
to find where we connect.
And I think, I recall in the call, like at least the one place we were able to
connect was this idea that we wanted to.
That a, a sound horse, a equine welfare was one of the key things
that would promote safety for people regardless of what way we're working.
Rupert Isaacson: Right?
Yes.
Equine welfare.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: A strong back, a happy horse.
And so,
Betsy Kahl: yeah.
Right.
And I think, you know, those are the things, if we can all, at least.
Whatever, whatever ego stuff we have to get through.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: Right?
But to figure out where do we, where is that connection, right?
Where is that thing that we both value, that we both are united on?
And that is one thing that I will say has started to come more and more up in, into
the industry, at least in my awareness, even within you know, whatever pleasure
or competitive riding discipline, right?
Is this idea of, you know, something that we haven't centered enough is the
welfare of our horses and, and how, right.
Rupert Isaacson: How do we start?
You're, you're dead, right?
'cause we're all, we're all under scrutiny now.
You know, the whole social licensing thing.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not just
Rupert Isaacson: the sport people.
It's us too in the equine assisted field.
Betsy Kahl: Right, right.
And, and that scrutiny can be challenging, right?
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes you are doing the best you can with the resources you have,
and that is okay, you know, and not everyone can have the textbook perfect
setup, but you, you do what you, you can to the best of your ability.
And you know, I, it's something that's interesting is, you know, organizationally
things that, or individ on an individual level again, 'cause that's where
I work, is this idea of, you know, can we ask ourselves a question of
like, what is it I want and what am I willing to do to not get that right?
And because we're always
one of, to not get that.
Rupert Isaacson: That's, yeah.
Betsy Kahl: And, and it's when it, you know, and that's where we start
to come up with those stories, right?
If I say, okay, well I want.
You know, I don't even know who my horse to be able to do this thing.
Right.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
And what am I willing to do to not get that?
And it's like you start to have to really sit with those hard actions that you take
that oppose what you say it is you want, and then you have to recognize, okay, well
I have to reevaluate one of these things.
And then the thought, the question is too, with do you realize
what you're doing to not get it?
It's the idea.
In this line of inquiry it, it's called, it's in this book called Immunity to
Change, which I thought was such a cool title by and and it's like, what are
the commitments I've made that support those things that, you know, those, what
am I committed to that is preventing me from getting that thing that I want?
Rupert Isaacson: Right?
Yeah.
What hill am I dying on?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's when the
Rupert Isaacson: actual.
Job is on the other hill.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think maybe regardless of who we are in this industry, it's like, okay,
well if we say we want welfare and we want programming that really helps or supports
participants to get X, Y, Z, right?
You know, if we say this is what we want, what, what are we doing that prevents it?
What are we willing to continue doing?
And then like why?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But that means that one has to admit that one sometimes is preventing it.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Which is, that's a
Rupert Isaacson: hard thing to admit, right?
Betsy Kahl: It, you're right.
Right.
But I think, at least for me, like, I think when we start to lead,
maybe not being like, you have to pull out your skeletons, right?
I, I was just like, here are mine.
Like this is, these are, this is where I've failed.
This is how I, like, even, even in some of my clinical work, you know, like the, the
idea of self-disclosure therapeutically is, is a real touchy subject.
And, you know, I, I don't believe in burdening your clients and stuff, but
I think that sometimes I like to some degree being able to be, to not be
afraid to share, you know, where Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that's an interesting one, isn't it?
The point of vulnerability, because let's say you're in, in the addiction world when
you're going through anything like that,
the only person who's qualified to deal with you.
Is a therapist that is a recovering addict mm-hmm.
Of the same thing that you've got otherwise they have nothing, you know, to
show you other than a bunch of opinions.
And in the course of that, in your average AA meeting everything is shared
and it's interesting and it works.
Mm-hmm.
And yet it's relegated from the other therapeutic modalities.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
That is interesting.
You know, I had a a that makes me think of, I had a, a job interview, or I was,
well, it was not probably a candidate.
I think they were doing me a favor of a person who suggested I interview
this job, but it was to work as a, a therapist for kids who again, had family
members or people that really close to whose lives were touched by cancer.
And I remember being in the interview and one of the questions they asked me because
I had shared something about, you know, my history as a child who had a family member
touched by cancer and ended up dying from cancer when I was still you know, I guess
I was technically an adult in 19, but but anyways, from 12 to 19 it was a pretty,
pretty significant presence in our lives.
And and I rather being like, how is that going to impact?
And the, the, the idea is like in a negative way.
Like how, how you be that's gonna impact your work.
Right, but not seeing it and as a strength per se, and I forget how the question was
phrased, but I remember just being like, I, you know, I'm not sure, like I've,
to where I am currently have processed the best I can and continue to work on it.
I was like, but what I do know is that as a 12-year-old, I would've loved
to have met somebody who had, could say, who would've been able to say
like, yeah, when I was your age, this was going on, and it's really hard.
But like, and even to see that they got through it, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: And, and I think, yeah, it's interesting why sometimes that,
and I get too, like it's a fine line because there are people who do dump
and maybe do put too much out there.
And it's, it's again, we're not, it's not a one-upmanship of stories, right?
It's not a suffering competition, but it's that, it's that connection
and that that true empathy and like, not not trying to eclipse someone's
experience with your own, but just being like, I get that this is hard and this
is my experience of it, and, and for whatever I've gained from it, if I have
something within that to offer you.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Well, I mean, you've been, you've been coy, but for the right reasons about
saying you know, what your involvement was with having a family member that
was, you know, touched by cancer.
Is it all right for me to say, or to ask you to say who that was?
Because I think knowing you as I do
that acts through your heart.
Spouted a wellspring of compassion that has, you know, informed
everything that you've done.
So why beat about the bush?
Because there'll be people listening, there'll be people watching who
are going through it, or their kids are going through it, you know?
So is it all right to talk about that?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So tell us who it was and, and, and, and how it affected you.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
It was well it was my father and and he was, it's, I, I know I'm confused
as to, to the story of it all.
I, at least as I understood it, when I was 12, he was
diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.
My mom will sometimes now say it was just outside small intestine,
but anyways, intestinal cancer and and he went through surgery.
So he was at that time, 42 and and he had, you know, surgery and then was
in remission for about seven years.
And then when he was 49, it came back and had metastasized.
And you know, I think less than a year he passed away.
So it's been, it was 27 years on the 17th of this December.
And so, so yeah, it's been, been a long time.
So I was, yeah, from 12 to 19, I was 19 when he died.
And.
That definitely does in, in great and not so great.
It just, it just, it does, it changes you.
The, you know, you have your life narrative is very much like, pre-death
and after death to some degree.
Mm-hmm.
And and so yeah, just how you make sense of the world, how
you move forward is impacted.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you make sense of the world and move forward?
Betsy Kahl: I don't know.
It's a daily thing.
That's a great answer, right?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's a daily
Betsy Kahl: thing.
And I think, again, you know, that can be terrifying.
But again, or you can realize that like, yeah, every day
is you're creating the story.
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: That, that, if I don't have such a grip, I mean, I was
about to say death grip, which isn't that interesting, right?
It's not, is it a grip that results after having death so close to you.
Right.
But like if you can just, yeah.
Just see how it shows up and, and move with that through your day.
'Cause there are days that are easy.
There are days where it hits.
There are days where it, you know, comes and gets.
Yeah.
But I think, I think, you know, you come, you make, you're
consistently making meaning of it.
And, and I think in the past I used to think, oh, you make,
you know, meaning and it's done.
Good job.
But but now I think it is a, every day I make meaning of the loss and that is okay.
And that is what's re required, at least of me, of how I'm, how
I'm, how I carry it with me.
And so, so yeah.
And that it's never done.
And I think when it's, I let go of that idea of thinking that there'd
be a resolution or an end point or, or something, you know, but but yeah,
and, and I think some of the meaning is yeah, how do I, how do I remember?
And in that remembering re embodying of who my dad was, right?
How do I remember that?
How do I carry that?
How do I keep that alive with me in some way?
So, so yeah, I think that's, that's, I think how I do it.
In some ways, well, and some ways not so well.
Doesn't mean that I don't also highly recommend sobbing in the
shower or or crumpling it or, yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Betsy Kahl: Or yeah.
You know, like that's all can be part of it too.
But yeah.
But I think too, well it being able to do presumably
Rupert Isaacson: must be Yes.
Betsy Kahl: Sharing that, that story, right.
Because yeah, we can make meaning for ourselves, but then yeah, we
have to, we heal through connection and community with others.
So how
Rupert Isaacson: have you, in the course of the work that you've
done with the equine assisted work,
encountered a lot of people who are dealing with grief?
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, gosh, there's so much grief.
Maybe not, not like, you know, the dead dad's clo, which is
Rupert Isaacson: sometimes
Betsy Kahl: interesting.
You know, it was really, it's interesting sometimes those periods
where you connect with someone quickly and you later on realize, oh
wow, you, your father has died too.
You had no idea why, but there's just some type of resonance.
Mm-hmm.
And but but yeah, I think there is so much grief in involved with,
with horses that people bring.
And I like things that I've heard, just, I think that there's a,
I, there's so many friends who have horses or maybe got back to horses later
in life and they're still grieving for.
What they did, or, you know, how they feel they've harmed or
harmed a horse in their past.
Right.
Or I think there's, there's grief work there, right?
Um mm-hmm.
There's, there's grief.
If you've lost your heart horse, there's, there's grief of those things you wanted
to accomplish, but maybe think you won't.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Betsy Kahl: There's, yeah, there's so, so much, and I mean, maybe grief
is not the correct word for it.
I don't know, but, but I think there is, it's, you know,
there's, there's a loss at least
Rupert Isaacson: death of dreams, you know?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
You know, I feel like I've had to do a lot of, of grief.
Work but not be eclipse with like Stewart.
You know, for Stewart is the horse.
I've had since he was like just turned four and he's now probably like 25.
And he is an amazing horse and I've learned, like, just did
everything for me in anything.
And and in 2022 from being a horse who could do what you name it, he'd
do it like through like PF changes, like whatever, and willing to give
it to anyone, trail ride, whatever.
He was great.
He got EPM and went from being like the strongest horse I ever knew to
barely being able to stay upright.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I think there's grief for like, you know, what I would consider, but
seeing how he's managed it and like now.
Again, that daily meaning making of his loss and not being like,
well the story's over, right?
Because he's in his heart, he wants to show up and do stuff, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: So it's been like, okay, well where can we start?
And so he started with like, when he, it was too much of a, I was
worried he'd fall over on me.
We did like from protective contact, like trick training, touch this
target, touch here, go there, right?
That's where we could start.
And then from there it was, 'cause he had the in hand work kind of foundation.
It was like, okay, well let's start playing with some of this.
What can you offer today?
And then it was like yeah.
So never seeing, I'm getting off on a tangent here, but I think, like, I feel
like for, with my relation with him, it's been this constant like creating
and how much I sometimes want to just.
Stay stuck in the grief and be like, okay, his story is over.
I'm gonna retire him.
He's done.
And how he refuses to let that
Rupert Isaacson: happen.
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: because he's, you know, I had a friend who's like, you
know, there are horses who, Winnie and she's like, he sings an aria.
He has the most operatic like.
Just across the pa, across the whole property will just, the sighting
you roll in, just all ha like, cut, like, I'm here, what are we doing?
And like, yeah.
And it has been so interesting 'cause he's just keeps, has kept showing up.
And yesterday the first day that I actually sat on him in like a, since he
was sick, and, and he, 'cause he had just kept showing like he was strong enough, he
wanted to, and I was just like, all right.
Dusted off his old saddle, threw it on him.
And, and it so didn't want to, 'cause I remember like, you know, earlier
on in his recovery doing that and literally being like, okay, let's see
if he can like, trot on the lunge.
And he fell over and like being like, ah gosh.
Like he can't be wr, you know?
And, i'm not even saying like big circles, I'm saying like, just
trot down the lungs, I fell over.
And like, so being, doing, being willing to like, try that again.
Put a saddle on him, not out of fear of like, ah, he is gonna hurt me, but just
like, can my heart take being broken?
If I open up to this possibility.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: And and he God, if a horse could strut out of a paddock with a sound
like he was pumped and proud, and I know I'm putting human emotions on an animal
anthropomorphizing, but like, but you know, it was just such a strong thing.
And I just like got on and was just like, okay, like let's just walk.
And he walked and like, I gather up the reins and from a walk you went
into a counter and like just, and I was like, let's just do two or three steps.
But like, you know, it was.
So the story continues, right?
And I find myself now battling this idea of like, is that, can
I, do I want that to be the end?
Because that was so great and I'm so scared.
If we try again, what if it falls apart?
Right?
And I think that's where loss for me shows up is sometimes that fear of
Rupert Isaacson: opening
Betsy Kahl: up to life being beautiful, like knowing that it's not permanent.
Like I hate that.
I hate it.
And, and there are some places where uncomfortable, but there are some
places where oh, it's terrifying.
And and so, so I wonder if that, you know, there's sometimes in
that yeah, pro like wanting,
not wanting to lose again.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
But we don't go for, you said just now.
And so the story continues.
Yeah.
And I was, I was gonna ask you why is it that horses help humans
to deal with grief So, so well, because we know that horses do, whether it's
getting us through breakups, whether it's getting us through deaths, whether
it's getting us through family mess ups, whether it's our own addictions
or whatever or fears, anxieties.
Mm-hmm.
Why do horses help us so much with this?
Betsy Kahl: Hmm.
I, I don't know.
I would, my guess is that again.
Being, being creatures who live in, in the present moment they don't stay stuck
in the past where a lot of grief resides.
And, and so they, they, maybe that's it.
They've make us continue.
Nurses
Rupert Isaacson: just don't stay stuck.
Yeah, I, I think you got it there.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
And you know, I remember another good steward story when I had him and was in my
twenties going through a, a breakup that ended up being a breakup after a breakup.
Like, like, it was like we just kept breaking up.
And it took me a while to learn.
But but I remember I was like, yeah, we had had, we had a fight, it was
like 2:00 AM and I was living at the barn in the apartment by the barn.
And so Stewart was like, right.
You know, just, just walk to his, his stable.
And so I like, was like, I'm so sad, I'm gonna go see my horse.
'cause like, you know, I'm like, we're gonna have a, a, my friend flick a
national, you name it, and you roll all the great horse movies into one, I'm
gonna have like, yeah, that guy sucks.
Like this, this horse, it, you're
Rupert Isaacson: gonna bring my drama to my horse.
Betsy Kahl: Right, right.
So, so yeah, I go.
I walk in and he's like, munching some hay this stall.
And he's like, oh, hey.
Like,
Rupert Isaacson: what up dude?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
And he's just like, Hey, hold.
So I like walk in the stall and he like walks over and I'm like, here it comes.
Like, I'm just gonna hug.
And, and he goes over and he's sort of like, okay, what's going on?
And I'm sure he is just like, okay, she's sad.
I'm like, let's do it.
And he is like, you know, I've had him.
And then I was just like, and now you hold me.
And that horse we met like in the middle of his stall and he put
his head down, like into my chest.
And I'm thinking here, yep.
He loves me.
And he just headbutted me.
And like,
and I had been like, water working and
Rupert Isaacson: I can't believe you did that to
Betsy Kahl: me.
He shoved me back and I like pump into the back of the stall.
And I just stood there, somewhat stunned.
And he looked at me and I looked at him and he just like blew out, turned
and went back to eating his hay.
And I was just like, and then I, it became very clear.
It's like, oh, this is not.
He is not interested.
And like, you know what, this is all pretty,
this whole mellow drama.
I was trying to like, of it, like, I, I should just go
my, yeah.
You know?
And, and maybe there would've been a worse, like, yeah.
Like probably the mayor I had in, in high school would've just like mothered
me, you know, like would've let me up.
But like, that's not who Stewart is and that's Yeah, I know Stuart.
Yes.
Not him.
And and and I think, yeah, and I think, you know, having a horse like Stewart in
my life, especially through a period of my life, I went through so many changes
of a horse who was just like, okay, like we're going like, let's not, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You can be whatever you wanna be, but let's keep moving.
And, let's
Rupert Isaacson: keep moving.
No, I agree.
It's, it's like I, I think that one of the, so I was thinking dogs, like
dogs do get involved in human dramas.
Dogs die of broken hearts.
Dogs are quite similar to us in many ways.
And so sometimes can get stuck.
Like we can get stuck.
Horses don't, and they carry us.
Right.
Even if we're not riding them, they still carry us metaphorically.
Betsy Kahl: Well, and they, they do
Rupert Isaacson: another way of being.
Right.
Betsy Kahl: Right.
And I mean, even, and they carry us, they move us right physically.
Like if we are on moving our bodies, which is again, like at the core of
it, why adaptive riding started Right.
Is to get a movement we wouldn't otherwise be able to give ourselves.
And and so, so yeah.
I mean, and there is.
You don't need me to tell you the, the healing that can come, the
growth that can come through movement and the antithesis of stagnation.
And so maybe that is where horses help us, right?
Is that Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I love that actually.
Yeah.
Horses move your body.
They do.
Whether you are on them or not, they move your body.
You, you could say yes, you have to walk your dog.
And it's not that dogs don't encourage movement, but, and we all own
dogs and, you know, love our dogs.
So we're not disrespecting the dog.
But there is, I think, this
miracle that we are their predator.
They are always skeptical of us.
Like, are you, are you gonna eat me?
And the answer is.
Maybe if I was hungry enough and I needed to feed my children,
I wouldn't be happy about it.
But, you know, so when you have that kind of reality, I think, in a relationship,
and then as you say, they move us, carry us, move us, help us transition,
the story goes to the next chapter.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, you've, you've touched on storytelling so much in this conversation,
whether through theater, arts or
you know, in, in so many ways.
In
your perfect world, where is the whole equine assisted field going?
What do you want to see in the next 10 years?
Hmm.
Betsy Kahl: I.
I would love to see
more belonging.
And, and by that I mean more, more
Rupert Isaacson: what?
Sorry?
Betsy Kahl: Belonging.
Rupert Isaacson: Belonging.
Betsy Kahl: Sense of belonging.
Okay.
And by that I mean that
there are many individuals, many, I, I can think, it's not hard for me to
think of something like, name fix you think would make a great instructor.
Mm-hmm.
There are often people that, I mean, and maybe some are not in the
time of life to pursue it, but some people like they're big obstacles.
They don't believe that they can do it.
And I.
Strongly disagree and we'll, we'll express that.
But yeah, that idea of like, okay, 'cause there are so many people that could
provide, so like that we need more, right?
Like, like there are wait lists and there are people who
could, could help with that.
And so I think if we,
and by would
Rupert Isaacson: everybody involved in horses?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: offer something on the therapeutic.
Mm.
Betsy Kahl: And again, figuring out like, well, what it, what is it?
Is it doing mounted work?
Is it the groundwork?
Is it great?
Yeah, sure.
And I think that's what's great was things are spreading out as far as what
ways you could pursue certifications to be a practitioner, right?
There's something now at a level for I think an entry point for so many people.
Now.
What's preventing them from going there?
I, I'm not sure.
But I think that as professionals, like the more we Yeah.
Do like, encourage people to pursue this get curious about, yeah.
Is the, is this the stretch place for them to step up here?
So I'd like to see more belonging.
I'd like to see, and I think that comes too from like places
of different sizes, right?
Like some people are comfortable working in big programs.
Some prefer backyards, horses as well, right?
So like just having more diversity within how things are delivered.
And, and I think for me, what I would love to get involved with
is that idea of not siloing.
Recreation riding versus adaptive versus lesson programs.
Like, I so value what I was able to experience growing up in a barn that,
and it is hard, and I'm not gonna deny, but like valley riding doesn't, man,
they have people who pay their board, who understand lessons run at these times and
you ride with them and no one gets to own the arena and also understand that, yeah,
we help out with the therapeutic program, but like, I remember growing up like, how
rare is it to be like trotting around on your, your horse Sputnik and to look and
see someone doing like Tempe changes and all kinds of cool stuff and like to, and
to be able to have conversations with it.
Like, you know, it's just, I think that again, as these.
Worlds that all share common mission?
Yeah.
Just trying to, to do the, be do right by our horses and,
Rupert Isaacson: um mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: Be
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think I, I agree.
Offer those
Betsy Kahl: connections.
Like Yeah.
I, I would just, I love the idea of things not being, because then too, that's
how a kid like me could grow up to be like, oh, well, I can be a horse owner,
but I can also teach adaptive riding.
I can also teach, like, none of this is mutually exclusive.
And and that,
Rupert Isaacson: that they're not really
Betsy Kahl: that different when it comes down to it.
Like, I mean, they are, there's technical skills.
Right.
But no, I,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I, I, I think I agree with you.
I think, I think that if, if, if, let's say you're at Pony Club
Yeah.
Or
came up, I came up through Pony Club.
Mm-hmm.
And if in pony club it was,
I dunno, mandatory to do some sort of service and that you could choose, there
could be just a whole variety, you know?
Well, like when I was growing up, I, I, I loved hunting.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the great
fulfillments of my life in the last few years is that I've hooked up
with this great hunt in Germany called the VA veil Bloodhounds.
You know, they're not hunting animals.
We hunt each other.
But it looks like fox hunting.
And we have every year an inclusive hunt.
You know, you could make so many boar act like jokes of No, we are only
hunting the autistic people so much here.
But.
What we are doing of course, is we are creating a day where all the people
who are in the Horse Boy program can have a day riding to Hounds.
And we do it on our friend Henrik and Getty's property, you know, who run
that great horse boy program there.
Because we can choreograph it and control it and so on.
But the amount of horse preparation that goes into it is insane as you can imagine.
But yet, you know, we have, say for example, Julian Beckoff, who
is a young rider with spina bifida and hydrocephalus coming back and
saying, I rode to hands, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And for me to be able to sort of open up that world with the
assisted equine assisted world
mm-hmm.
Has a sort of particular resonance for my soul, so I get healed as well.
Mm-hmm.
And this, as you say, to silo it off, saying, well, if, if you're a fox hunter
or if you're an inventor, or if you're a show jumper, you're a dressage writer or
you're a therapeutic person, or you're this, you are western pleasure, your,
you know, and that these things exist outside of human mental health, I think
weirdly, that actually harms the horse.
I think what horses want to do is interact with us in this kind of
cross species, cross mammalian way, tribal horse culture that, you know,
humans and horses evolved four to 6,000 years ago out there on the step.
And that's how kind of how horses want to engage and that they,
you, you talked about belonging.
What is belonging?
Belonging is tribe clan.
And we are all members of a global horse tribe, right?
Which includes our people who perhaps are, are more vulnerable.
If we, I think one of the things I, I I, I love about observing horses
that go into therapy programs is that
they tend to do the job with enthusiasm.
They tend to dive into the job.
And I've never yet met a horse who said, oh, I don't do that because I'm
actually, you know, a Grand Prix horse.
No horse ever said that, ever.
That's a monkey idea, you know?
The horse says, I'm here, I'm available.
You show me what it is you want from me.
And if it is reasonable and doesn't make me feel horrible, I'll probably
participate, you know, in a, in a, in the, just the same way you would.
Mm-hmm.
Coming down to love.
At the end of the day, horses operate through love.
Horses operate through emotion.
Horses operate through that mutual support system that they have, even when they're
being rude to each other that we do too.
So in your perfect world, would it be like that?
Would it be that say at pony club level or a four H or you know, whatever is
the entry point for the kid that this is made front and center, rather than
saying, well, the real stuff is over here.
If you want to go play with the retards as well.
Okay, you can do that.
But you know, rather, that I think is the message we all got growing up.
But what if it was different?
What if it was much more front and center for the young riders coming
in and validated in, in a weird way?
Maybe you earned your points, you know, towards whatever system
you are working towards with a certain amount of service hours.
You know, it's interesting that that's not built in, isn't it?
You know, that it's,
Betsy Kahl: yeah.
I'm not aware if it is or if it isn't.
But I, yeah, certainly.
And it's, it's definitely great to have, you know, more opportunities and, whew.
I, you know, I, my, my life has not been a very linear thing.
And so I, I don't know.
I wish there was something as a very simple direct line to making
things happen, but I think the more that, yeah, again, you open,
you just have those possibilities strewn around, like, does this
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Betsy Kahl: And people that, that instead of when someone comes to you and is like,
I'm, I'm curious about this being that, that, that welcoming place as opposed
to, well, you have to, you know, and it jump through, prove yourself first.
In order to be able to, to do this, you
Rupert Isaacson: must suffer first.
Yes.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I mean, yeah, you have to have some skills and some
training, but like, but yeah.
How do you make that again, not, not so, so, yeah.
Not making people feel like they're, they're getting
like, you know, sifted out.
Right,
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
Betsy Kahl: And and so, so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's
complicated to say the least.
I think it was simple.
We'd have cracked the code, but maybe it is also simple and it's just sort of,
yeah, just being, being willing to adapt and modify and improvise and change.
You know, you have structures that are helpful to have, but within
that there's a lot of space to be creative and and so, right,
Rupert Isaacson: and I think your, your point earlier that if, if
what we're primarily concerned with is the horse's wellbeing
mm-hmm.
Not in a kind of, we hate humans, we love horses, you know, sort off you humans, but
more from the point of view of if we're expecting or we would like this horse to.
Give wellbeing to a human.
Mm-hmm.
It's probably a good idea if that horse has wellbeing to give.
And I think if, if, yeah, if our focus is there, then the rest follows.
You know, as, you know, with our, with say for example, movement method or
horse boy method, it's Follow the Child.
Mm-hmm.
And if one does that, it seems that everything else falls into place.
But when one doesn't do that, things tend to get kind of complicated.
Mm-hmm.
I would posit it's a bit the same with Follow the Horse.
Yeah.
Where is this horse's happiness?
Where is this horse's wellbeing?
What does this horse really love to do?
How do we make this horse feel as good in their body as we possibly can?
Because that's gonna translate to the mind.
And then if we do that,
probably whoever comes into contact with that horse is going to benefit.
Right.
Betsy Kahl: One would hope.
Right?
One would hope.
But yeah.
Yeah, I, I think that sounds, sounds good.
So, so, yeah, I'm not sure what that perfect world looked like.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I can, I can help people with that because
I know this person called Betsy Carl, who lives in Bend, Oregon.
And I know that if people go to Betsy, Carl 'cause I've watched her at work
over quite a few years she will help them to understand how to put that
equine wellbeing into their horses, which will then help them through
a variety of methodologies, give that wellbeing to monkeys, whether
juvenile monkeys or adult monkeys.
Mm-hmm.
So I think people should actually reach out to you, Betsy, as a mentor.
Whether it's on the equine, ie dressy end, or on the therapeutic
end or, or points in between.
Is it all right if people contact you?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, always.
I always tell people contact me, and then I just sit and wait.
Like
Rupert Isaacson: how would they contact you?
Betsy Kahl: Let's see.
I have they can contact me at betsy@wonderhorseranch.org.
That's the nonprofit that I had in Texas, but haven't figured
out how to do it here yet.
But that email still works and that's probably the easiest one to spell.
I also have that
Rupert Isaacson: at Wonder Horse Ranch org.
Yeah.
Org.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so listen, viewers and listeners, if you want to learn
Horse by Method, movement Method, takin.
As we call it now, which is all the groundwork as it's as its own therapy
and our LIOs system of dressage, and also just the other stuff that Betsy can bring
to the table all by herself without any involvement in me of which there's plenty.
I do thoroughly recommend that you reach out to her as a mentor.
She's been in this for many years.
She has produced amazing horses that I've seen.
She's brought healing to the lives of so many people, including my own son.
I can't recommend her highly enough.
You have a mentor up there in that box above me, although probably in YouTube
she's gonna be here or here or here.
But I'm, I'm sort of gonna hedge my bets by pointing in all four directions.
Contact this person because she
can do the job and can show you how to do the job in so many modalities.
Also within the path.
System and, and others.
So it's Betsy Carl, is it Betsy Carl at Wonder Horse org?
Betsy Kahl: No, it's just B-E-T-S-Y.
At,
Rupert Isaacson: at, it's just Betsy.
At, okay.
Betsy.
Betsy Kahl: Betsy
Rupert Isaacson: at Wonder Horse.
Betsy Kahl: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: ranch.org.
Betsy Kahl: Dot org.
Rupert Isaacson: betsy@wonderhorseranch.org,
reach out to her let her mentor you.
She's a good mentor.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, sure.
Please do.
Yeah, I, I mean, if I can help, I will.
Right?
Yeah.
I, I don't,
I am always.
Curious about Yeah.
What people are seeking.
And again, if what I've experienced in my life can be supportive
of any way, I'll share that.
Happily.
But I, I will say, even if it's not with me that I do believe that learning
the classical groundwork system is life changing for both you and your equines.
And and always you will always have some way to Yeah.
Connect and create something magical with them no matter the
weather, no matter their ability.
Right.
It's just something that
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely no matter whether you have an arena or not.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Betsy Kahl: And, and no matter what, even if something is going poorly, it
is just, it's just the, the foundation you can return to, to, to in hand
Rupert Isaacson: work.
Absolutely.
It is the key.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And Betsy can teach you, so go to her.
Betsy Kahl: Well, my horses can teach you.
I was lucky enough to have some great horses that taught me and and
they are happy to share as well.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's been a pleasure.
Betsy Kahl: Yes, it has.
Rupert Isaacson: I look, I look forward to the next collaboration.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah.
We'll see what happens.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
We'll the
Betsy Kahl: story continues, right?
Rupert Isaacson: It does indeed.
Alright, my friend, I think we're gonna have you on again in a few
months and go into some more depth.
I'd like to, I'd like to actually go into more into the theater arts side.
Mm.
Yeah.
We barely touched on it this time, so maybe we'll do a, a follow up.
Sure.
You up for that?
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: yeah.
Always.
Yeah, reach out, let me know.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, good.
And then hopefully I'll be seeing you soon.
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