WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:39.272 --> 00:01:40.092 Mark Zemanski. 00:01:40.092 --> 00:01:42.272 Welcome back to the WP Minute. 00:01:42.272 --> 00:01:43.022 Always great to have you. 00:01:43.402 --> 00:01:44.912 Matt, always great to be here, brother. 00:01:44.912 --> 00:01:45.292 Thank you. 00:01:45.302 --> 00:01:49.092 We're publishing this video on the WP Minute podcast channel. 00:01:49.092 --> 00:01:50.722 This way I see what I'm trying to do. 00:01:51.197 --> 00:01:55.997 Is get all that attention and awareness that you bring to the WordPress media 00:01:55.997 --> 00:02:00.417 landscape over onto this other YouTube channel so that we can get more podcast 00:02:00.447 --> 00:02:01.927 listeners for the WP minute proper. 00:02:01.927 --> 00:02:03.467 So I thank you for your time and efforts. 00:02:03.847 --> 00:02:04.727 Hell yeah, man. 00:02:04.727 --> 00:02:04.947 Yeah. 00:02:04.957 --> 00:02:08.207 I don't, I don't know what, what traffic I'm driving, but I love it. 00:02:08.267 --> 00:02:08.537 I love it. 00:02:09.057 --> 00:02:10.407 Just trying to, just trying to talk. 00:02:10.417 --> 00:02:14.627 Generally you'll see Mark and I stream on the WP minute YouTube channel. 00:02:15.047 --> 00:02:18.947 Where we talk all things like WordPress, news, WordPress business stuff. 00:02:19.397 --> 00:02:22.537 Also where the, the home of all the WordPress tutorials go that I do. 00:02:23.007 --> 00:02:24.857 But you've been bumped Mark, next Thursday. 00:02:25.507 --> 00:02:27.437 Next Thursday I have another live stream. 00:02:27.837 --> 00:02:29.267 With the one Sam Smith. 00:02:29.317 --> 00:02:30.357 Wait, did I get his last name right? 00:02:30.367 --> 00:02:32.327 Sam Smith. 00:02:32.657 --> 00:02:33.567 UK guy. 00:02:33.927 --> 00:02:38.587 He is a big Webflow guy. 00:02:39.012 --> 00:02:41.092 Ooh, I will be in the chat for that one. 00:02:41.462 --> 00:02:42.422 Sam Harrison. 00:02:42.842 --> 00:02:43.412 Sorry, Sam. 00:02:43.792 --> 00:02:45.562 I've not, I'm Sam Smith. 00:02:45.782 --> 00:02:46.997 I think it's a Smith Smith. 00:02:46.997 --> 00:02:48.622 It was so easy to just throw in there. 00:02:49.012 --> 00:02:51.192 Sam Harrison, he has a fantastic YouTube channel. 00:02:51.742 --> 00:02:52.642 Paul Charlton. 00:02:53.002 --> 00:02:56.852 So I saw him mention him in one of his live streams and I was like, 00:02:56.852 --> 00:02:58.192 Hey, wow, this guy, this guy's great. 00:02:58.212 --> 00:03:02.262 He's a huge proponent on Webflow likes WordPress is use WordPress. 00:03:02.662 --> 00:03:06.652 So he and I are going to go about talking about WordPress versus Webflow. 00:03:06.927 --> 00:03:09.107 And his points of view, and it's going to be fun. 00:03:09.107 --> 00:03:11.317 So that'll be next Thursday. 00:03:11.747 --> 00:03:15.207 Mark, you yesterday had your stream a thon. 00:03:15.227 --> 00:03:18.487 It was about two and a half, two and a half hours, two hours. 00:03:19.127 --> 00:03:19.377 Yeah. 00:03:19.377 --> 00:03:23.487 Two 15, two 15 learning in public, as I like to call it. 00:03:23.517 --> 00:03:26.197 So some of us in the WordPress space build in public. 00:03:26.247 --> 00:03:28.377 Hey, I'm, I'm doing this thing with my business. 00:03:28.637 --> 00:03:29.497 What do you think? 00:03:29.527 --> 00:03:30.787 What features should I launch? 00:03:30.787 --> 00:03:32.367 What do you think about this call to action? 00:03:32.767 --> 00:03:33.817 You're learning in public. 00:03:33.887 --> 00:03:34.567 Fun fact. 00:03:34.722 --> 00:03:37.652 Which I didn't tell you before we hit record, I had a lot of people DMing me 00:03:38.332 --> 00:03:41.532 being like, Hey, this guy you brought into the league, he's really going at it. 00:03:42.332 --> 00:03:43.812 He's really going at it. 00:03:43.822 --> 00:03:49.562 But there was a shared sentiment that a lot of us have gone through sort of 00:03:49.562 --> 00:03:50.742 like what you're going through now. 00:03:50.742 --> 00:03:54.822 It's just like poking and prodding and where are the boundaries here? 00:03:54.982 --> 00:03:56.022 Where are the lines? 00:03:56.082 --> 00:03:56.952 Who's doing what? 00:03:56.972 --> 00:03:58.042 What is this thing? 00:03:58.602 --> 00:04:01.772 When you've, you've been doing this sort of live on Twitter and 00:04:01.772 --> 00:04:05.312 on your YouTube channel, learning all things WordPress community. 00:04:05.787 --> 00:04:08.807 open source, what this thing is, who it's for. 00:04:09.407 --> 00:04:11.437 You're not alone in this thinking. 00:04:11.847 --> 00:04:14.417 You're just doing it in a hyper compressed amount of time. 00:04:14.427 --> 00:04:18.677 I think a lot of us just stumbled around 15 years ago, 00:04:18.977 --> 00:04:20.247 trying to figure this stuff out. 00:04:20.657 --> 00:04:24.197 And, uh, you're just getting, uh, Shot of steroids from every 00:04:24.447 --> 00:04:26.277 direction on where to learn. 00:04:26.277 --> 00:04:29.557 And it's a, it's a testament to your ability to want to do this stuff 00:04:29.557 --> 00:04:32.907 publicly and, and, and talk about it also to the WordPress community. 00:04:32.907 --> 00:04:35.757 There's so many more people involved than there were back in the day 00:04:36.217 --> 00:04:39.727 that you must be getting bombarded by people just throwing in their 2 00:04:39.737 --> 00:04:41.517 cents every, every step of the way. 00:04:41.782 --> 00:04:44.922 But hopefully it's a, it's a positive outcome for you in the long run. 00:04:45.332 --> 00:04:45.752 Yeah. 00:04:45.772 --> 00:04:46.502 I mean, a lot there. 00:04:46.502 --> 00:04:46.752 Yeah. 00:04:46.752 --> 00:04:47.992 It's, it's been fun. 00:04:48.022 --> 00:04:50.892 I mean, one of my life mottos that I've developed over my course of just 00:04:50.892 --> 00:04:54.332 doing other things on the internet and just in, in, in life in general 00:04:54.332 --> 00:04:56.322 has become learn, try and share. 00:04:56.722 --> 00:05:00.552 So that's like something that I've just come to know that about myself 00:05:00.552 --> 00:05:03.672 and anything that I, whether it was like finance when I was trying to learn 00:05:03.672 --> 00:05:06.882 how to manage money when I was younger or just WordPress in general at the 00:05:06.882 --> 00:05:11.132 beginning or renovating my house when we, when me and my wife bought it, 00:05:11.132 --> 00:05:12.922 like just all those types of things. 00:05:12.922 --> 00:05:16.672 Like now I'm in this space and I'm trying to take it more seriously because 00:05:16.682 --> 00:05:21.282 WordPress is something that I feel, as I've said, you have to, I feel like if 00:05:21.282 --> 00:05:23.842 you're not caring about the news, you're not caring about WordPress to some degree 00:05:23.842 --> 00:05:24.852 and you're building a business off it. 00:05:24.852 --> 00:05:26.462 I feel like that's slightly short sighted. 00:05:26.867 --> 00:05:29.737 And I've tried to take a more active role in that, you know, with again, 00:05:29.737 --> 00:05:32.857 mentors like yourself, just trying to understand kind of what's going on. 00:05:33.427 --> 00:05:36.357 You guys have been around for much longer than I am trying to ask these critical 00:05:36.357 --> 00:05:38.117 questions to understand for myself. 00:05:38.517 --> 00:05:42.237 Honestly, educate others, because I know there's a lot of other people just like 00:05:42.237 --> 00:05:45.957 me that have been in it for a while too, and just don't know the ins and outs. 00:05:45.957 --> 00:05:47.847 I've never asked the questions, maybe haven't cared. 00:05:47.847 --> 00:05:48.347 But now. 00:05:49.022 --> 00:05:52.742 Just with, you know, paradigm shifts in the, in the space and the industry 00:05:52.742 --> 00:05:56.532 and the, in WordPress community, there's a lot of reason to care and 00:05:56.592 --> 00:06:00.392 yeah, I'm learning a lot, but I want to also make some, you know, if I can. 00:06:00.942 --> 00:06:04.892 Possibly make a change or just continue to provoke thought as well. 00:06:04.892 --> 00:06:05.782 I think that would be good. 00:06:05.782 --> 00:06:09.402 I'm, I'm definitely trying to absorb, but, but I mean, overall it's been, it's 00:06:09.402 --> 00:06:12.402 been a great ride and I've met a lot of great people just like yourself, Matt. 00:06:12.402 --> 00:06:15.452 So I, I'm really appreciative for everything that all the conversation, 00:06:15.452 --> 00:06:18.132 all the good thoughts, and I just think it's a, it's a net benefit 00:06:18.132 --> 00:06:19.482 when we're, when we're talking more. 00:06:20.012 --> 00:06:22.702 A lot of this stuff, when you were having your live stream yesterday, by the 00:06:22.702 --> 00:06:24.152 way, check out Mark's YouTube channel. 00:06:24.152 --> 00:06:25.172 We'll have that linked up. 00:06:25.387 --> 00:06:29.657 In the show notes, search Mark Szymanski on YouTube, a lot of the stuff that, 00:06:29.937 --> 00:06:32.747 you know, you heard me just type to you while you were live streaming. 00:06:32.747 --> 00:06:36.207 A lot of other people said, Hey, this is, this is the same conversation 00:06:36.207 --> 00:06:41.377 we've seen over and over again, because everyone has like this, this question 00:06:41.667 --> 00:06:47.737 and every few years or so WordPress always goes through this growth spurt. 00:06:47.887 --> 00:06:50.287 Now WordPress is 20 years old. 00:06:50.682 --> 00:06:53.792 And, you know, I think one of the things that you were talking about in 00:06:53.792 --> 00:06:58.752 your life during your live stream was like, you know, what is WordPress CMS? 00:06:59.162 --> 00:07:03.272 And what's funny is it's, it's funny to hear you say that because 00:07:03.272 --> 00:07:07.972 that was a very heavy, that was a big debate like 10 years ago. 00:07:08.402 --> 00:07:10.122 Is this really a CMS? 00:07:10.772 --> 00:07:12.592 Is this an app framework? 00:07:12.642 --> 00:07:18.722 There was a, uh, A moment in its growth cycle, WordPress, where, and 00:07:18.722 --> 00:07:21.632 I'm going to stop sharing this cause I don't remember if squad cast puts 00:07:21.632 --> 00:07:24.242 us side by side, but I want to go back to the new WordPress website. 00:07:24.522 --> 00:07:27.752 There was a moment in time in WordPress growth cycle where 00:07:27.752 --> 00:07:29.002 that was like a year long debate. 00:07:29.342 --> 00:07:31.652 Like this debate that we're having now, is this for builders? 00:07:31.652 --> 00:07:33.022 Is this for man? 00:07:33.092 --> 00:07:36.322 There was a whole year where people were debating whether or not this thing 00:07:36.322 --> 00:07:41.652 was for making apps online because you had this framework, you know, and there 00:07:41.652 --> 00:07:44.302 are probably still people out there and you can still do it, but it was 00:07:44.302 --> 00:07:46.382 a healthy debate going on for a year. 00:07:47.047 --> 00:07:48.267 Is this an app framework? 00:07:48.267 --> 00:07:52.177 Because we have a user management system, but we have themes that, you 00:07:52.177 --> 00:07:55.207 know, when custom fields came in and, and, and people started bringing, 00:07:55.217 --> 00:07:58.637 injecting other technologies, you're like, wow, you could build, there 00:07:58.637 --> 00:08:00.277 was a whole app ecosystem too. 00:08:00.277 --> 00:08:03.187 There were plugins that were making apps, people like, oh, this is, 00:08:03.207 --> 00:08:04.527 this is something that we can build. 00:08:04.967 --> 00:08:08.867 You know, bespoke apps with, and then that was just like a whole other year long 00:08:08.867 --> 00:08:13.457 of what you're experiencing now started out as a blogging platform where it was 00:08:13.467 --> 00:08:19.787 just blogs and just for publishing, you know, blog posts, then pages, you know, 00:08:19.797 --> 00:08:24.087 then custom fields, and then the theming convention and all this stuff, you know, 00:08:24.087 --> 00:08:26.547 really started to, to come into play. 00:08:27.197 --> 00:08:32.667 And I think what this is, is an amalgamation of deck two decades now. 00:08:32.667 --> 00:08:32.722 Yeah. 00:08:33.142 --> 00:08:38.422 Of just year after year stacking, you know, what is WordPress, where's 00:08:38.422 --> 00:08:43.122 the web going, where's the open web going, where's WordPress going, and 00:08:43.692 --> 00:08:48.482 humanity just injecting lines of code every year to build this thing and 00:08:48.482 --> 00:08:50.712 it ends up being what we have today. 00:08:51.252 --> 00:08:53.062 And coincidentally, WordPress. 00:08:53.062 --> 00:08:55.632 org launched a new website, homepage, landing page. 00:08:56.147 --> 00:09:00.207 Meet WordPress, the open source publishing platform of choice for millions of 00:09:00.207 --> 00:09:05.047 websites worldwide from creators and small businesses to enterprises. 00:09:05.247 --> 00:09:08.437 And I think that's the key when we're looking at a lot of this of 00:09:08.447 --> 00:09:09.917 figuring out what WordPress is. 00:09:10.157 --> 00:09:12.047 Open source publishing platform. 00:09:12.447 --> 00:09:17.207 Figure out whatever publishing platform means to you as the end user. 00:09:17.677 --> 00:09:20.147 It's always been that for better or worse. 00:09:20.417 --> 00:09:23.277 You know, for better or worse, I think. 00:09:23.357 --> 00:09:26.497 And, and I think this new homepage is setting the tone for like where it's 00:09:26.497 --> 00:09:30.527 going, but I don't think it's just one thing, which isn't probably the 00:09:30.757 --> 00:09:32.987 best answer, but it's what we have. 00:09:33.387 --> 00:09:37.197 It's definitely, I think if you're using WordPress or if you've ever 00:09:37.207 --> 00:09:39.627 gone somewhere else and came back to WordPress, you realize that it 00:09:39.627 --> 00:09:41.027 is probably the best that we have. 00:09:41.077 --> 00:09:41.847 It's not perfect. 00:09:41.867 --> 00:09:42.747 Nothing is perfect. 00:09:42.747 --> 00:09:45.867 I don't, I think you're kind of silly if you expect it to be perfect. 00:09:45.867 --> 00:09:47.677 But that being said, the one thing that I. 00:09:48.092 --> 00:09:51.932 Have kind of, you know, with some of the live streams and like just talking 00:09:51.932 --> 00:09:55.662 different people is sometimes it seems I don't know constructive criticism 00:09:55.692 --> 00:10:01.432 is Is is just met with Maybe it's met with a little bit more resistance than 00:10:01.432 --> 00:10:04.392 I would hope but maybe it's just the way that it's delivered sometimes and 00:10:04.412 --> 00:10:08.492 obviously You know again, it's an open source project So you you got to be able 00:10:08.492 --> 00:10:13.042 to you got to want it to get better and contribute in some form But you know, 00:10:13.042 --> 00:10:16.912 there's many different ways to contribute So, I don't know it's it's definitely 00:10:16.912 --> 00:10:19.332 uh It's definitely the best we have. 00:10:19.352 --> 00:10:20.392 It's fantastic. 00:10:20.422 --> 00:10:23.202 I don't think, again, if you're on the platform and you're, and you're 00:10:23.282 --> 00:10:26.802 actively like shitting on it, I think that that's like demeaning it in a 00:10:26.802 --> 00:10:28.092 way, like being completely negative. 00:10:28.092 --> 00:10:29.302 I don't think that's productive. 00:10:29.392 --> 00:10:32.522 But at the same time, I think that anytime you go into a conversation like 00:10:32.522 --> 00:10:34.632 that, both sides need to realize that. 00:10:34.977 --> 00:10:37.907 Are we, are we, are we actively trying to make this better? 00:10:37.937 --> 00:10:39.077 Is that our actual goal? 00:10:39.077 --> 00:10:42.367 Cause I think in more, more times than not, that is the goal. 00:10:42.377 --> 00:10:45.407 I'd venture to say 99 percent of the time people that are having 00:10:45.407 --> 00:10:47.867 WordPress discussions, unless they're outside the community. 00:10:48.247 --> 00:10:49.557 They want it to get better. 00:10:49.887 --> 00:10:53.577 So, and a lot of it is frustration, I think, because people have certain 00:10:53.577 --> 00:10:56.647 ways of thinking, certain ways of doing things, you know, the page boat 00:10:56.647 --> 00:11:00.507 versus the core thing, and they, they, they, this is literally the case. 00:11:00.527 --> 00:11:02.727 I try to stay in the middle as much as possible with the 00:11:02.727 --> 00:11:04.437 page voter versus core thing. 00:11:04.437 --> 00:11:07.597 Cause I'm kind of like in both camps and I see that, and. 00:11:08.077 --> 00:11:13.367 And just the, the high level there is that people have ways of working that 00:11:13.367 --> 00:11:16.277 might work in an agency or whatever and they know it works for them 00:11:16.277 --> 00:11:17.777 because they've made money that way. 00:11:18.077 --> 00:11:21.527 And then they see a product being built that is like a part of 00:11:21.527 --> 00:11:23.937 their ecosystem, but maybe not something they use all the time. 00:11:24.127 --> 00:11:26.617 And they're like, why is that happening like that? 00:11:26.617 --> 00:11:27.667 Why are we doing this? 00:11:28.157 --> 00:11:31.767 But the thing that I had an epiphany with yesterday is that maybe it 00:11:31.767 --> 00:11:33.457 is literally just not being built. 00:11:33.777 --> 00:11:35.847 for that audience. 00:11:35.857 --> 00:11:37.937 Like it's, it's literally built for everyone. 00:11:38.297 --> 00:11:41.747 Again, I questioned the marketing there in a way, but, but I mean, it's, it's built 00:11:41.757 --> 00:11:46.987 for the, like everyone to use, meaning that it's basically built for the lowest 00:11:46.987 --> 00:11:50.397 common denominator average user, which is not a demeaning thing to say, but anyway, 00:11:50.397 --> 00:11:54.147 it's just means that anybody can pop in there and do it, which is fantastic. 00:11:54.777 --> 00:12:00.327 It's just that the, the question, the, the, the tough part is that under actually 00:12:00.327 --> 00:12:02.017 understanding that and being okay with it. 00:12:02.267 --> 00:12:05.532 And Again, I'm just trying to observe it and see what's going on, but 00:12:05.532 --> 00:12:07.372 that's what I'm seeing, you know. 00:12:07.777 --> 00:12:11.507 in the trenches, so to speak, you know, and it just, it causes a lot of mixed 00:12:11.507 --> 00:12:15.047 emotions and, and frustration, but at the end of the day, they're tools and 00:12:15.047 --> 00:12:15.897 we shouldn't be emotional about it. 00:12:16.277 --> 00:12:19.817 So, yeah, I, you know, and again, I, I shared all, you know, these 00:12:19.887 --> 00:12:22.777 sentiments too, when I first got into the space, why are we doing this? 00:12:22.777 --> 00:12:27.017 I mean, We, I think we talked about this on the live stream last time, but I was 00:12:27.027 --> 00:12:31.927 selling themes years and years ago and it was the same thing, like bringing theme, 00:12:32.177 --> 00:12:37.257 bringing free themes into the space and you're just met with this weird, here's 00:12:37.257 --> 00:12:42.017 this rule set largely put in place by volunteers, you know, figure it out. 00:12:42.357 --> 00:12:44.457 And I had all the same. 00:12:44.802 --> 00:12:49.772 you know, questions and concerns that, that you did or have. 00:12:50.372 --> 00:12:55.122 But what I have seen is, and I think that maybe what a lot of people aren't saying 00:12:55.122 --> 00:12:59.132 because we're just not like thinking about it or whatever, but it's like 00:12:59.422 --> 00:13:03.142 when we say, Oh, we've seen this before, like we've seen this debate before. 00:13:03.272 --> 00:13:07.662 We've seen this person come in and, and want WordPress to go one way when 00:13:07.662 --> 00:13:08.962 the whole thing's moving the other way. 00:13:09.302 --> 00:13:11.242 And WordPress continues. 00:13:11.642 --> 00:13:18.642 To thrive, grow and, you know, and scale and get better iteratively slowly 00:13:18.652 --> 00:13:21.162 because that's the nature of open source. 00:13:21.592 --> 00:13:25.412 I think if you looked at open source anything, that's just the nature of it. 00:13:25.902 --> 00:13:28.012 It's, it's not sexy. 00:13:28.022 --> 00:13:32.492 WordPress is probably the sexiest open source thing that at least that I know 00:13:32.492 --> 00:13:36.672 of, you know, If anyone's watching this, go ahead, drop a comment on what is 00:13:36.742 --> 00:13:41.662 like flashier or like more adopted as an open source thing other than WordPress. 00:13:42.202 --> 00:13:46.552 Mastodon maybe as a, you know, cause everybody migrates, everyone, a lot 00:13:46.552 --> 00:13:49.442 of people migrated there when they weren't happy with Twitter or whatever. 00:13:50.022 --> 00:13:53.182 So WordPress, you know, is, is fantastic, you know, for that. 00:13:53.222 --> 00:13:54.882 And the. 00:13:55.282 --> 00:13:57.422 Yeah, the thing, it still gets better. 00:13:57.692 --> 00:14:01.362 I think what the, what I have issue with is what, you know, recently we talked 00:14:01.362 --> 00:14:06.082 about is when people say, well, oh God, this other tool is so much better. 00:14:06.082 --> 00:14:10.972 Like we'll have this web flow debate air quotes debate around 00:14:10.972 --> 00:14:12.512 web, web flow versus WordPress. 00:14:12.912 --> 00:14:16.842 But at the end of the day, you're paying web flow for that software. 00:14:16.862 --> 00:14:19.912 You're only getting web flow from web flow. 00:14:20.332 --> 00:14:24.392 And I think that that's where a lot of this conversation has to start at the top. 00:14:24.837 --> 00:14:31.307 Is do you want open source and your data or do you just want something else and 00:14:31.337 --> 00:14:35.267 that's where I think a lot of people are missing the on the little adventure map 00:14:35.267 --> 00:14:39.367 and all of this stuff is that's where you have to make your decision because if you 00:14:39.367 --> 00:14:41.417 say yes, I want open source in my data. 00:14:42.062 --> 00:14:46.702 Then you're going down this path, and just be ready for this long, arduous 00:14:46.702 --> 00:14:52.512 path of open source politics, versus, yeah, I don't really care, I'll pay for 00:14:52.512 --> 00:14:56.442 it, I'll pay for this cool tool, then you go this way, and then you can say, 00:14:56.952 --> 00:15:00.622 Webflow's got all these awesome things, insert other, you know, Squarespace has 00:15:00.622 --> 00:15:03.782 all of these awesome things, and it's so much easier than, then go that route, 00:15:03.952 --> 00:15:09.302 just know that the biggest sacrifice is open source, which comes with community, 00:15:09.692 --> 00:15:13.272 and your data, which means, Hey, whatever happens at Squarespace, it's there. 00:15:13.272 --> 00:15:17.132 Whatever happens at Shopify, it's there, you know, pay for it. 00:15:17.302 --> 00:15:17.782 Better tool. 00:15:17.942 --> 00:15:21.172 A hundred percent, you know, yes, no one's really debating that. 00:15:21.202 --> 00:15:26.382 It's just when you say, but I can't take this, you can't do anything with it other 00:15:26.382 --> 00:15:29.232 than go to Shopify Squarespace or Webflow. 00:15:29.862 --> 00:15:33.302 And I think that's where a lot of people have to observe that, observe that 00:15:33.302 --> 00:15:34.782 when they're making these arguments. 00:15:35.142 --> 00:15:39.632 And then when people really pin down WordPress for its faults, it's like, 00:15:39.642 --> 00:15:42.812 well, Go to another tool then and build. 00:15:43.232 --> 00:15:43.492 Yeah. 00:15:43.552 --> 00:15:46.202 And then when you go there and realize, Oh, I do have it kind 00:15:46.202 --> 00:15:47.712 of nice in WordPress land. 00:15:48.202 --> 00:15:53.392 Well, yes, let's appreciate that instead of just, you know, getting so 00:15:53.392 --> 00:15:57.632 fired up about, you know, things that are actually being solved by third 00:15:57.632 --> 00:16:00.342 party tools, which is a win, right. 00:16:00.342 --> 00:16:01.202 Which is a win. 00:16:01.512 --> 00:16:02.952 You and I chatted offline about that. 00:16:02.952 --> 00:16:04.071 Like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, 00:16:04.071 --> 00:16:07.612 it's, it's, it's, It's a testament to WordPress and open source that something 00:16:07.612 --> 00:16:12.702 is missing in WordPress, somebody built it, turned it into a thriving business, 00:16:12.942 --> 00:16:14.382 and people can buy it and use it. 00:16:14.902 --> 00:16:18.452 That's I mean, you, you can't do that with a web and maybe you can do that with 00:16:18.452 --> 00:16:19.782 a webflow if they have a marketplace. 00:16:19.962 --> 00:16:20.932 You can do it with Shopify. 00:16:20.952 --> 00:16:22.522 They have a marketplace, but there's a tax. 00:16:23.062 --> 00:16:23.472 I don't know. 00:16:23.542 --> 00:16:27.212 Like to me, it seems like it's sometimes we get lost in these 00:16:27.222 --> 00:16:28.552 silly debates, myself included. 00:16:28.972 --> 00:16:33.252 Yeah, I mean, last part of that, totally agree with, I mean, my only question would 00:16:33.262 --> 00:16:38.992 be, and I've probably posed it before, but probably not as, not as directly is, is, 00:16:39.212 --> 00:16:41.112 is what we're seeing with WordPress then. 00:16:41.112 --> 00:16:44.222 And again, I'm, I got a call on people that have more experience than I do 00:16:44.312 --> 00:16:47.922 for, for these types of answers is what we're seeing with WordPress and 00:16:47.922 --> 00:16:49.562 those, you know, like we, like you just. 00:16:50.052 --> 00:16:52.872 You know, explain their kind of those frustrations, you know, Hey, 00:16:52.912 --> 00:16:54.262 why don't you go try somewhere else? 00:16:54.262 --> 00:16:56.682 And, you know, like whatever you, whatever you don't like about 00:16:56.682 --> 00:16:59.092 this, it's definitely, there's definitely cons elsewhere. 00:16:59.512 --> 00:17:03.602 I mean, my only question would be, is that just something that's inherent to all open 00:17:03.602 --> 00:17:08.492 source projects and WordPress is not, you know, immune to those, or is this, are 00:17:08.492 --> 00:17:11.192 we seeing the best it could possibly be? 00:17:11.232 --> 00:17:14.632 There's no way to make, alleviate any of those. 00:17:15.022 --> 00:17:18.702 Cons we'll say, because obviously it's got a ton of pros, right? 00:17:18.812 --> 00:17:21.982 And I'm not, I'm not doubting you that, Hey, I'm not saying that, that, 00:17:22.022 --> 00:17:25.152 um, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that if you go to Shopify, go 00:17:25.152 --> 00:17:28.752 to web flits and maybe like certain pieces of the tools are better in 00:17:28.752 --> 00:17:30.052 a way, but there's still problems. 00:17:30.052 --> 00:17:31.562 I mean, like, let's not, let's not kid ourselves. 00:17:31.572 --> 00:17:33.257 So there's definitely still problems in paid tools. 00:17:33.657 --> 00:17:36.067 But at the same time, the biggest thing is the data, right? 00:17:36.317 --> 00:17:39.217 So are you saying though in order to have the data in order to have an 00:17:39.217 --> 00:17:42.437 open source environment These are just things you absolutely have to put up 00:17:42.437 --> 00:17:45.067 with or do you think that there is? 00:17:45.457 --> 00:17:51.337 some level of extra, whatever insert political something here in 00:17:51.607 --> 00:17:55.967 WordPress that doesn't need to be there just because it's open source. 00:17:56.047 --> 00:17:56.367 Yeah. 00:17:56.387 --> 00:17:58.667 So data and code, right? 00:17:58.667 --> 00:18:01.007 Because the code is, is GPL, right? 00:18:01.007 --> 00:18:03.297 So you can modify WordPress. 00:18:03.867 --> 00:18:07.497 That's how we have themes and plugins and SAS services that, you know, plug up. 00:18:07.497 --> 00:18:08.327 There's just huge, right? 00:18:08.327 --> 00:18:09.347 So that's huge. 00:18:11.617 --> 00:18:18.112 You also have to like, My background was, when I was growing up with computers, 00:18:18.522 --> 00:18:20.552 I was a salesperson at Circuit City. 00:18:20.877 --> 00:18:24.297 Way back in the day and selling computers, of course, and this is when they still 00:18:24.297 --> 00:18:26.867 sold software in boxes on the wall. 00:18:27.317 --> 00:18:30.557 And I remember this guy came in and he wanted the cheapest, cheapest 00:18:30.577 --> 00:18:32.607 computer that we had open box. 00:18:32.607 --> 00:18:33.017 Didn't care. 00:18:33.147 --> 00:18:35.417 I don't care if the thing is busted, broken. 00:18:35.467 --> 00:18:37.597 I mean, as long as it turns on, I'll take it, but I don't really care 00:18:37.597 --> 00:18:40.797 what it is because I'm going to run this thing called Linux on top of it. 00:18:40.837 --> 00:18:42.617 I was like, what the hell is this guy talking about? 00:18:43.027 --> 00:18:44.127 This is Linux thing. 00:18:44.257 --> 00:18:46.517 There's another operating system, right? 00:18:46.517 --> 00:18:48.257 Besides Apple and windows. 00:18:48.257 --> 00:18:49.217 I don't know about this. 00:18:49.612 --> 00:18:51.082 And we had it on the wall. 00:18:51.082 --> 00:18:52.672 I just didn't know what it was. 00:18:53.072 --> 00:18:59.202 And that sort of unlocked my open source experience into, into open source, bought 00:18:59.202 --> 00:19:02.642 a copy of what was called Mandrake Linux at the time, installed it, did all this 00:19:02.642 --> 00:19:05.962 stuff, started to realize that, Oh my God, there's a whole world of open source 00:19:05.962 --> 00:19:08.512 software back then to do different things. 00:19:08.512 --> 00:19:11.552 Bulletin boards, like real weird things on, on the web back then. 00:19:11.942 --> 00:19:12.342 So. 00:19:12.502 --> 00:19:16.892 So I'm very used to like finding these things, unpacking them, and 00:19:16.892 --> 00:19:20.322 then, you know, further into the, my career running one of the first 00:19:20.332 --> 00:19:24.672 cPanel servers for a web hosting company that only use windows, right? 00:19:24.892 --> 00:19:28.742 So when I brought in Linux, first of all, you had, I had all these haters in 00:19:28.742 --> 00:19:31.682 the room that were all windows admins, cause they were like, First of all, we 00:19:31.682 --> 00:19:35.882 don't know how to admin this and it looks like you're coming for our job, right? 00:19:35.892 --> 00:19:38.352 So, but I was like, Oh no, it's just this thing, you know, Linux 00:19:38.352 --> 00:19:40.552 servers, cPanel runs on top of it. 00:19:40.582 --> 00:19:45.282 It's like a fraction of the price that we pay for, for Microsoft windows. 00:19:45.282 --> 00:19:46.742 Like, why wouldn't we do this? 00:19:47.132 --> 00:19:48.012 It had. 00:19:48.457 --> 00:19:52.297 PHP nuke, which was a framework for building a website back in the day 00:19:52.327 --> 00:19:55.787 before WordPress, a couple other things that you could one click install. 00:19:55.887 --> 00:19:56.687 It was amazing. 00:19:57.167 --> 00:20:00.727 When you look at it, the hosting game hasn't changed all that much, you 00:20:00.727 --> 00:20:06.007 know, from 20 years ago, but it was just amazing what open source unlocks. 00:20:06.447 --> 00:20:09.297 And, you know, that's, that's always been a part of me. 00:20:09.777 --> 00:20:13.937 And the same is true, you know, in the WordPress space, all of the advantages 00:20:14.347 --> 00:20:20.037 And this is why I'm so, I'm so strong on, you've got to keep WordPress thriving. 00:20:20.047 --> 00:20:23.757 It doesn't mean you have to commit code to it, show up at all these hallway hangouts, 00:20:24.107 --> 00:20:26.177 but you, you want to be a fan of it. 00:20:26.177 --> 00:20:29.267 You want to be able to promote it, especially as if you're in 00:20:29.267 --> 00:20:32.187 the third party space, because you don't want that to go away. 00:20:32.227 --> 00:20:35.167 You want this thing to keep rising because it's only going to help you. 00:20:35.577 --> 00:20:38.557 Now, are there like, pain points with this stuff. 00:20:38.667 --> 00:20:39.627 100%. 00:20:39.917 --> 00:20:41.717 Look how long it takes, right? 00:20:41.957 --> 00:20:44.817 Look at the ambiguity, the stuff that you're trying to figure out. 00:20:44.857 --> 00:20:45.147 Okay. 00:20:45.147 --> 00:20:49.147 There's open source contributors that are being sponsored by, let's say, automatic, 00:20:49.147 --> 00:20:51.677 the largest of the sponsorship pool. 00:20:52.337 --> 00:20:56.967 And one starts to say, well, boy, that must mean that there 00:20:57.037 --> 00:20:58.867 is automatic influence here. 00:20:59.277 --> 00:20:59.647 Yeah. 00:21:00.247 --> 00:21:00.777 Yes. 00:21:01.327 --> 00:21:02.317 There's no one. 00:21:02.437 --> 00:21:03.757 I think we're all over that. 00:21:04.007 --> 00:21:05.517 The fact that, yes, that is. 00:21:05.517 --> 00:21:05.587 Yeah. 00:21:05.967 --> 00:21:06.667 That is a thing. 00:21:06.727 --> 00:21:11.807 People will go further and say that, you know, it's, it's just a means for 00:21:11.817 --> 00:21:15.597 people to get free labor, to build into WordPress so that it funnels up, it 00:21:15.597 --> 00:21:17.667 shoots up to automatic and wordpress. 00:21:17.667 --> 00:21:17.997 com. 00:21:18.267 --> 00:21:20.987 It ain't happening because I have a wordpress. 00:21:20.987 --> 00:21:21.557 com account. 00:21:21.727 --> 00:21:23.197 I have a website on wordpress. 00:21:23.197 --> 00:21:24.687 com and it's the same thing. 00:21:24.987 --> 00:21:26.807 It's not any better over there, right? 00:21:26.817 --> 00:21:30.207 It's not like they're like, Oh, I get this free labor and now wordpress. 00:21:30.207 --> 00:21:31.487 com is so much better. 00:21:31.657 --> 00:21:33.327 It's not, it's the same exact. 00:21:33.832 --> 00:21:34.352 problem. 00:21:34.952 --> 00:21:35.792 It's not any better. 00:21:36.202 --> 00:21:40.212 And then yes, there, everyone points as you have seen that 00:21:40.212 --> 00:21:42.002 it's, it's owned by Matt. 00:21:42.142 --> 00:21:47.332 Largely this whole thing is directed by Matt much broader these days. 00:21:47.382 --> 00:21:48.872 Cause he has a lot on his plate. 00:21:49.262 --> 00:21:52.952 If you go like, I just really sent out the newsletter for WP minute. 00:21:53.332 --> 00:21:55.742 It's about looking ahead to WordPress 6. 00:21:55.742 --> 00:21:55.922 6. 00:21:55.922 --> 00:21:57.342 He's the release lead again. 00:21:57.562 --> 00:21:59.592 He's always the release lead, right? 00:22:00.232 --> 00:22:02.252 He started WordPress, right? 00:22:02.252 --> 00:22:03.332 Him and Mike little. 00:22:03.897 --> 00:22:08.767 And now he, he, and remember WordPress open source came before automatic. 00:22:09.267 --> 00:22:13.787 It wasn't like automatic was formed and they released a little open source 00:22:13.787 --> 00:22:16.377 project for people to build on WordPress. 00:22:16.377 --> 00:22:21.767 Open source started first and then he made automatic in order to fund the 00:22:21.777 --> 00:22:24.507 project fund or run a profitable business. 00:22:24.507 --> 00:22:27.527 You can take that either way, but automatic pours a 00:22:27.587 --> 00:22:31.077 ton of money into WordPress. 00:22:31.507 --> 00:22:32.737 And that's his frustrations. 00:22:32.737 --> 00:22:36.617 And maybe a lot of other people's frustrations is why don't more people 00:22:36.647 --> 00:22:42.437 contribute to WordPress so that it's not just automatic, you know, and I'll 00:22:42.857 --> 00:22:46.967 say this last thing I was watching our, you know, friend of the show, Jonathan 00:22:46.967 --> 00:22:49.757 Denwood is watching the tonic and, you know, they brought a blue host, blue 00:22:49.757 --> 00:22:54.257 host, thank you for being a sponsor of the WP minute, web hosts, tough game. 00:22:54.567 --> 00:22:55.877 I was in the web host industry. 00:22:56.197 --> 00:23:00.137 I know there's a sentiment behind big conglomerate web hosts. 00:23:00.572 --> 00:23:03.372 Largely because people who complain about those web hosting accounts are 00:23:03.372 --> 00:23:05.072 paying for the cheapest of the cheap. 00:23:05.362 --> 00:23:10.342 And when there's issues, there's a lack of maybe support, response time, resources, 00:23:10.542 --> 00:23:12.522 but you've paid, you're paying 5 a month. 00:23:12.872 --> 00:23:13.852 What did you expect? 00:23:14.352 --> 00:23:18.032 And there's, you know, watching his last episode and he was talking about, Oh, you 00:23:18.032 --> 00:23:21.672 know, blue host, you know, would never use them, wouldn't trust them, yada, yada. 00:23:21.702 --> 00:23:24.992 They're all this, whatever, you know, there's a, Oh, why does Matt always 00:23:25.262 --> 00:23:27.762 talk about blue hosts and have them connect on the partnerships page? 00:23:28.032 --> 00:23:29.832 Because they're the second. 00:23:30.397 --> 00:23:34.737 Most second or third most contributor to WordPress and they've been doing it for 00:23:34.737 --> 00:23:41.752 years and they sponsor events That's why they're good stewards of of open source. 00:23:41.752 --> 00:23:45.132 And I say that not just because they're my sponsor, because that's what they do. 00:23:45.752 --> 00:23:47.542 You just look at the chart, look at the people. 00:23:47.552 --> 00:23:50.802 John Deroges used to work for me when I started my agency. 00:23:50.812 --> 00:23:53.062 He's the lead, one of the lead contributors to core on 00:23:53.062 --> 00:23:54.352 WordPress, works at Bluehost. 00:23:54.352 --> 00:23:57.282 They pay him to just work on Blue on, on WordPress. 00:23:57.692 --> 00:24:02.652 You can't, you can't complain about companies with money on one hand, and 00:24:02.652 --> 00:24:06.062 then, you know, just disregard the fact that I don't know how much money 00:24:06.062 --> 00:24:09.132 they pour into it, but millions into. 00:24:09.572 --> 00:24:10.742 Supporting WordPress. 00:24:10.942 --> 00:24:15.562 Yeah, that's why Matt says, thanks Bluehost and puts them on hosting pages. 00:24:16.192 --> 00:24:18.682 I'm sure there might be other products out there that compete with 00:24:18.682 --> 00:24:22.652 them that one might say is better, but they are putting in the work. 00:24:23.072 --> 00:24:25.342 And, you know, and that happens across the board. 00:24:25.342 --> 00:24:26.062 It's not just Bluehost. 00:24:26.062 --> 00:24:27.292 There's other organizations too. 00:24:27.732 --> 00:24:31.062 The politics, like we just talked about, that's the part that's, 00:24:31.102 --> 00:24:32.242 that's hard with open source. 00:24:32.862 --> 00:24:34.012 People have written books about it. 00:24:34.362 --> 00:24:38.772 You know, way smarter than me, you know, shared multiple governments is what 00:24:38.772 --> 00:24:43.332 this is shared multiple governments across, you know, web technology. 00:24:43.382 --> 00:24:46.172 That's you know, that's what we're, we're dealing with everything that 00:24:46.172 --> 00:24:50.002 you, that you maybe wrestle with in your local governments, your local 00:24:50.002 --> 00:24:52.222 politics, quasi the same thing. 00:24:52.222 --> 00:24:55.372 But this time we're talking like PHP and JavaScript, you 00:24:55.372 --> 00:24:56.772 know, and who gets credit here. 00:24:56.802 --> 00:24:59.392 That's, that's, that's what it is, at least to me anyway. 00:24:59.792 --> 00:25:00.002 Hmm. 00:25:00.387 --> 00:25:00.887 That was a lot. 00:25:00.887 --> 00:25:02.527 I don't know what you want to hook onto with that one, Mark. 00:25:03.387 --> 00:25:03.677 I know. 00:25:04.527 --> 00:25:05.247 It's good stuff. 00:25:05.287 --> 00:25:05.637 I don't know. 00:25:05.647 --> 00:25:09.697 I, I mean, the way that I respond to that are, as you're talking about all 00:25:09.697 --> 00:25:15.007 that, I have a lot of thoughts and really it, it boils down to two avenues 00:25:15.017 --> 00:25:18.507 is, does it, does it, does it matter? 00:25:19.147 --> 00:25:24.427 Is it a good idea to kind of like, like probe into that whole apparatus 00:25:24.427 --> 00:25:28.497 that you just, Lay it out at a high level, or does it not matter? 00:25:28.817 --> 00:25:31.647 It's kind of like the root of the question that I first just asked and I don't want 00:25:31.647 --> 00:25:34.837 to I don't want to say does It not matter as in oh, we shouldn't care about this 00:25:34.837 --> 00:25:38.467 shit because I still think we should care about this shit But I'm saying like that's 00:25:38.467 --> 00:25:42.382 the part where I think that I've talked to a lot of people and they've, they've 00:25:42.382 --> 00:25:45.602 started to do what I've, what I've kind of like done here, you know, again, hyper 00:25:45.602 --> 00:25:49.432 focused and last, you know, so much, so many times, and I've gotten the response 00:25:49.432 --> 00:25:52.992 of, hey, there's a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of red tape, can't really do anything, 00:25:53.162 --> 00:25:55.422 dah, dah, dah, whatever, and I'm not saying those are right or wrong, I'm 00:25:55.422 --> 00:26:00.397 just saying those were people's opinions, and To me, it's, you know, at a certain 00:26:00.397 --> 00:26:04.507 point you do have to ask yourself the question, is this a good use of my time? 00:26:04.507 --> 00:26:07.737 Not just from a money standpoint or whatever, you know, and not just 00:26:07.737 --> 00:26:09.747 saying if you should or should not contribute to WordPress, if you're 00:26:09.757 --> 00:26:12.827 benefiting from it, it does make sense to contribute in one way or another, 00:26:12.827 --> 00:26:16.407 like a hundred percent, but I'm just saying like at the core of it, I'm a 00:26:16.407 --> 00:26:18.197 type of person that likes to understand. 00:26:18.727 --> 00:26:20.547 Like, when I get into something, obviously, I like to go all the 00:26:20.547 --> 00:26:22.857 way in and just, like, fully understand it as much as possible. 00:26:23.087 --> 00:26:28.807 And to me, you know, the, the, again, that, that apparatus is something 00:26:28.807 --> 00:26:31.537 that I would love to dive into and I would love to learn more about. 00:26:31.537 --> 00:26:34.167 And, like, literally, I think you and I have talked about this before, almost 00:26:34.167 --> 00:26:37.687 like a documentary or just, like, an infographic of how everything works. 00:26:37.687 --> 00:26:41.307 I'm sure it's out there in some ways, but, like, actually, you know, present that. 00:26:41.747 --> 00:26:44.337 And I'm just not sure if that matters, because, like, I don't know if that, 00:26:44.337 --> 00:26:47.587 uh, Is productive, I guess, is a word that everybody likes to use. 00:26:47.587 --> 00:26:50.737 So like, I don't, that's kind of my next thing is like, I'm not sure. 00:26:50.737 --> 00:26:55.017 Cause that's all good info, but at the same time I hear that presented and 00:26:55.017 --> 00:26:58.267 it's just, well, either we look into it more or it just doesn't matter. 00:26:58.267 --> 00:27:00.987 And we just still just try to continue to do the other things. 00:27:00.987 --> 00:27:02.907 Cause I don't know, I don't know if it does matter or not, like 00:27:02.907 --> 00:27:04.127 from a productivity standpoint. 00:27:04.147 --> 00:27:04.387 Yeah. 00:27:04.387 --> 00:27:04.777 So. 00:27:05.207 --> 00:27:09.657 I've built a career on that after, you know, when I, when I launched the Mat 00:27:09.657 --> 00:27:12.987 Report podcast, which was a podcast I did before this, that was largely to just 00:27:12.987 --> 00:27:17.727 find out how, who are as, who is everyone in the, in the community, how do I get. 00:27:17.742 --> 00:27:19.602 like projects. 00:27:19.672 --> 00:27:23.842 And again, you have to remember 15 years ago, different landscape people were just 00:27:23.862 --> 00:27:27.692 jumping into like big companies, jumping into WordPress because it was the best 00:27:27.692 --> 00:27:32.502 alternative to paying literally millions of dollars to, to launch websites. 00:27:33.112 --> 00:27:35.282 And I wanted to grow my agency. 00:27:35.282 --> 00:27:37.692 I just want to figure out how to, how I meet people so I can do the 00:27:37.692 --> 00:27:39.382 same thing as a non developer. 00:27:40.232 --> 00:27:40.742 And. 00:27:41.287 --> 00:27:43.777 After, you know, after a while, after, you know, the business was up and 00:27:43.777 --> 00:27:47.257 running and, you know, really started to turn to the open source side of 00:27:47.257 --> 00:27:52.467 it and more like being critical of leadership in WordPress, mostly Matt, 00:27:52.757 --> 00:27:55.917 because, you know, I have this sort of like tagline, the blue collar digital 00:27:55.917 --> 00:27:59.147 worker, people who are just like rolling up their sleeves, building websites. 00:27:59.307 --> 00:28:03.147 They're not trying to be like a 10 up a web dev studios, you know, doing 00:28:03.147 --> 00:28:06.497 millions and millions of dollars a year, trying to grow a team of 500 people. 00:28:06.767 --> 00:28:09.497 They're just, Hey, I want to run a, an agency. 00:28:09.902 --> 00:28:13.242 A couple people, maybe it's just myself, want to do good work, want to 00:28:13.262 --> 00:28:17.692 get customers, do good work by them and get paid reasonably well, right? 00:28:18.092 --> 00:28:21.782 And observing like where WordPress was going at the time, 00:28:22.012 --> 00:28:24.652 I was looking at a few avenues. 00:28:24.692 --> 00:28:30.222 It was the dawn of jetpack, which at the time when that landed, it was like, Whoa 00:28:30.222 --> 00:28:34.952 boy, now we're going to get a commercial version for a commercial plugin from 00:28:34.982 --> 00:28:38.082 automatic that competes with all of us. 00:28:38.672 --> 00:28:39.002 Right. 00:28:39.362 --> 00:28:43.272 At the time, you know, Pippin Williamson, Gravity Forms, like all 00:28:43.272 --> 00:28:45.492 these people were just like getting their businesses off the ground. 00:28:45.512 --> 00:28:48.092 And then here comes Jetpack, which, you know, everyone called 00:28:48.092 --> 00:28:49.372 the Trojan horse of WordPress. 00:28:49.372 --> 00:28:51.842 This is not, this is not anything new. 00:28:52.052 --> 00:28:52.962 They were like, wait a minute. 00:28:53.182 --> 00:28:59.232 Cause Mullenweg was, was against a lot of the commercial side of plugins and 00:28:59.232 --> 00:29:03.792 themes, especially if you went up against, you Like the GPL or if you were selling 00:29:03.792 --> 00:29:07.332 it under the guise of oh, you're buying software You're not buying software in 00:29:07.332 --> 00:29:11.002 GPL because you can't you can buy the support or the licensing and you know 00:29:11.002 --> 00:29:14.372 There's some terminology in there for smarter people but that's where you saw 00:29:14.372 --> 00:29:18.692 him butt heads against like people like Pearson from thesis and a lot of people 00:29:18.692 --> 00:29:23.882 in the community because There was a major growing point for WordPress tons of money 00:29:23.892 --> 00:29:27.307 theme forest the marketplace was massive. 00:29:27.347 --> 00:29:30.347 I mean, printing money for WordPress back in the day. 00:29:30.507 --> 00:29:33.077 And then Jetpack came along and you saw that. 00:29:33.547 --> 00:29:38.577 And I remember, uh, that's how Matt and I first interacted was. 00:29:39.257 --> 00:29:43.157 You know, him saying something that the growth of WordPress was thanks 00:29:43.177 --> 00:29:48.567 to, was thanks to Jetpack, loosely paraphrasing him, but it was pretty close. 00:29:49.117 --> 00:29:51.577 And there was an article written on the Tavern about that. 00:29:51.597 --> 00:29:54.597 And I was just, and I think my comment was like, that's a slap in the face to 00:29:54.597 --> 00:29:58.647 all of the plugin and theme developers that are out there because WordPress 00:29:58.667 --> 00:30:01.697 growth has been built off the back of everyone that's been promoting 00:30:01.697 --> 00:30:05.927 WordPress, everyone, whether you're selling a commercial plugin or doing 00:30:05.927 --> 00:30:08.117 a free one, it all helps WordPress. 00:30:08.492 --> 00:30:11.832 And ended up getting on, that's how we, he and I first came together on my 00:30:11.832 --> 00:30:13.552 podcast or whatever, again, years ago. 00:30:13.922 --> 00:30:18.492 So, I think it's important that people continue to question and 00:30:18.712 --> 00:30:23.542 have a watchful eye over how this piece of software evolves. 00:30:24.142 --> 00:30:25.702 Bias, because that's what I've been doing. 00:30:26.142 --> 00:30:30.662 Years after that, Maureen Hendrickson, who's now at LinkedIn, along with Rachel 00:30:30.662 --> 00:30:35.792 Cherry, I forget where she's at right now, they were strongly advocating for 00:30:36.187 --> 00:30:39.867 I'm forgetting the actual words that they, that they, that they use, but to 00:30:39.867 --> 00:30:46.387 have a, not a constitution, but like bylaws for how the, how the WordPress 00:30:46.797 --> 00:30:48.677 project is being governed governance. 00:30:48.697 --> 00:30:50.577 That's what it was, the governance project. 00:30:51.027 --> 00:30:56.927 I mean, a huge push people, contributors, you know, pushing hard and it ended up 00:30:56.937 --> 00:30:59.387 dying out, not enough energy behind it. 00:30:59.747 --> 00:31:04.617 Not enough people wanted to, you know, continue to, you know, push for that. 00:31:05.112 --> 00:31:06.452 and very hard. 00:31:06.852 --> 00:31:11.692 And even Matt brought it up a few times, you know, considering it a little bit, but 00:31:11.692 --> 00:31:17.712 that would mean that he would either have to be removed or have some means of, I 00:31:17.712 --> 00:31:20.422 don't know, rotation or voting in and out. 00:31:20.452 --> 00:31:22.382 And it gets super complicated. 00:31:22.942 --> 00:31:24.462 And at the end of the day, that lost steam. 00:31:24.982 --> 00:31:27.767 And there's been countless other Things along the way. 00:31:27.767 --> 00:31:31.027 And so, you know, a long way of getting to know, I think it's important that 00:31:31.027 --> 00:31:34.337 we all keep an eye on it because it's, and this is my opinion is why I do it 00:31:34.567 --> 00:31:39.437 is because it's for, it's huge, massive amount of people use the software and 00:31:39.437 --> 00:31:43.847 whether you realize it or not, open source is important and the government 00:31:44.207 --> 00:31:48.357 who is the steward for WordPress is important because I said this a million 00:31:48.357 --> 00:31:49.907 times and I never want it to come true. 00:31:50.457 --> 00:31:53.547 Salesforce is one of Automattic's biggest investors. 00:31:53.897 --> 00:31:56.737 If Automattic, if Salesforce was ever, if WordPress was ever run 00:31:56.737 --> 00:31:58.237 by Salesforce, we're all screwed. 00:31:58.627 --> 00:31:59.717 Forget all this stuff. 00:31:59.957 --> 00:32:04.627 Like what we're debating today will be a luxury if it's ever owned by 00:32:04.637 --> 00:32:06.507 Salesforce or a commercial entity. 00:32:06.997 --> 00:32:10.917 I mean, like maybe an entity like a Salesforce that would just chop 00:32:10.917 --> 00:32:13.517 it up and be like, we just want to make money with this thing now. 00:32:13.887 --> 00:32:14.127 Hmm. 00:32:14.547 --> 00:32:19.132 So We got a we got a hope that the torch is always carried. 00:32:19.542 --> 00:32:22.822 Yeah, like the torch is always passed on and carried Yeah, and 00:32:22.822 --> 00:32:28.072 and I think automatic and Matt are still the best people for that That 00:32:28.072 --> 00:32:29.482 doesn't mean you can't disagree. 00:32:29.482 --> 00:32:34.072 That doesn't mean you can't have you know, criticism I've never gone into the 00:32:34.102 --> 00:32:38.002 levels of criticism other people have and said some outlandish stuff about him 00:32:38.592 --> 00:32:44.157 You know, I don't care about how much money he is Has made or is worth and 00:32:44.157 --> 00:32:45.557 people shouldn't bring that in either. 00:32:45.557 --> 00:32:50.857 Like it's just, it's not relevant to open source WordPress because 00:32:50.857 --> 00:32:55.527 he, he doesn't own it per se, cause you can literally take it right now 00:32:55.597 --> 00:32:56.757 and go do something else with it. 00:32:56.797 --> 00:33:00.927 Not saying that's easy, but you couldn't do that with Microsoft windows. 00:33:01.347 --> 00:33:04.407 You can just grab it and be like, mine now you're done. 00:33:04.547 --> 00:33:04.767 Yeah. 00:33:04.817 --> 00:33:07.967 You know, you're going to get sued, but you could literally do that with WordPress 00:33:08.287 --> 00:33:09.647 and just do something else with it. 00:33:09.647 --> 00:33:09.942 Yeah. 00:33:10.322 --> 00:33:14.472 And there is, there's classic, uh, classic press, I think is the, the project when, 00:33:14.502 --> 00:33:19.162 when there was a group of people who, when the Gutenberg was built into WordPress, 00:33:19.562 --> 00:33:20.822 they were like, no, we don't want this. 00:33:20.822 --> 00:33:23.882 And we're going to continue to, we're going to fork WordPress 00:33:24.122 --> 00:33:26.802 and try to maintain it and keep classic press with no Gutenberg. 00:33:27.182 --> 00:33:28.452 That's a project that's still running. 00:33:28.852 --> 00:33:30.952 Not a lot of people it's there. 00:33:31.032 --> 00:33:35.232 And it's again, another Testament of it can be done to what degree it 00:33:35.232 --> 00:33:37.222 depends, but you know, it's possible. 00:33:37.947 --> 00:33:39.587 And I've had these same things. 00:33:39.587 --> 00:33:45.107 Like I, I wrote about, or I vlogged about it on my other channel when automatic 00:33:45.107 --> 00:33:50.727 released a professional services started with a 5, 000 website, then a 500 website. 00:33:50.967 --> 00:33:52.327 And I was like, here we go again. 00:33:52.717 --> 00:33:56.097 The title of that video is I spell it WordPress now with a lowercase P 00:33:56.487 --> 00:33:59.487 because you know, it's always, you know, it's that same thing, right? 00:33:59.887 --> 00:34:01.077 WordPress, capital P. 00:34:01.492 --> 00:34:02.722 Okay, I get it. 00:34:03.082 --> 00:34:07.132 You know, it's just like every version of WordPress had hello dolly in it for years 00:34:07.352 --> 00:34:11.552 That was Matt's like placeholder plug in and everything is oh, it's so cute. 00:34:11.552 --> 00:34:14.862 We leave it in it's like nostalgia get it out Get it out of here. 00:34:14.892 --> 00:34:17.992 All right, we did it a couple versions get it out, you know And the word first 00:34:17.992 --> 00:34:22.022 capital P thing is like, oh, you got to respect the name I get it But when the 00:34:22.022 --> 00:34:25.822 name isn't respecting us and they're doing something like this I feel like 00:34:25.822 --> 00:34:30.427 it was you know a slight in you know, To the builders out there that have, you 00:34:30.427 --> 00:34:31.997 know, brought and promoted WordPress. 00:34:32.437 --> 00:34:35.107 I was wrong about that because it didn't really go anywhere. 00:34:35.147 --> 00:34:38.127 Didn't impact the freelancers for sure because it's a services 00:34:38.127 --> 00:34:39.567 business just like everybody else. 00:34:39.797 --> 00:34:44.077 So, you know, it's not like they wiped the, the, you know, wiped the deck 00:34:44.077 --> 00:34:47.287 with everybody, but, but still it's like one of those things like, Hey 00:34:47.287 --> 00:34:50.707 man, we're here, we're the blue collar digital workers of WordPress and. 00:34:51.347 --> 00:34:55.307 If you come up against us, like we'll, we'll push back, you know, where we can. 00:34:55.587 --> 00:34:59.647 So, yeah, I don't, I just, I just think there's a lot of, there's 00:34:59.647 --> 00:35:01.137 a lot of intricacies to it. 00:35:01.187 --> 00:35:04.747 I don't know enough about the history of open source and other open 00:35:04.747 --> 00:35:08.067 source projects, but I would just still wonder if like other ones are 00:35:08.067 --> 00:35:11.557 similar in that regard, it does seem like there's like a, um, a mixture 00:35:11.557 --> 00:35:14.127 of almost like lobbying and then. 00:35:14.622 --> 00:35:19.022 Commercialism mixed into it, and regardless of if it actually has a 00:35:19.052 --> 00:35:25.242 tangible impact on it or not, definitely has an impact on the perception of 00:35:25.242 --> 00:35:27.312 the use that the users have on it. 00:35:27.432 --> 00:35:31.942 Again, just people in the comments all the time, in the live streams and things, 00:35:31.942 --> 00:35:35.132 and I'm just like, I'm the one kind of, you know, trial by fire with me, you know, 00:35:35.132 --> 00:35:38.732 talking to People and like yourself and all that, and just trying to get all that 00:35:38.732 --> 00:35:41.942 information, and then I'm just trying to regurgitate, regurgitate what I'm 00:35:41.942 --> 00:35:45.352 hearing and other people are like, yeah, you know, I've always thought that too. 00:35:45.352 --> 00:35:49.332 Like, why is, why is it like set up like this at the top? 00:35:49.372 --> 00:35:54.112 Obviously it's for some, for good reason in certain cases, it's just the mixture 00:35:54.112 --> 00:35:57.622 of obviously open source doesn't mean like completely like it's more based 00:35:57.622 --> 00:35:59.872 on the, obviously the licensing and the code and stuff like that, but just 00:35:59.872 --> 00:36:02.552 like the nature of that mixed with. 00:36:03.152 --> 00:36:05.642 You know, like when you're saying you don't like that automatic kind 00:36:05.642 --> 00:36:08.912 of swoops in and try to, tries to undercut people basically, or whatever 00:36:08.912 --> 00:36:13.052 on the service side, it's similar kind of on the software side when it's, 00:36:13.052 --> 00:36:18.952 okay, now we have paid, you know, commercial companies contributing. 00:36:19.352 --> 00:36:23.402 And is that, is that like kind of a form of, we're going to get a say in that? 00:36:23.402 --> 00:36:25.632 Cause we've had other discussions where we'll make, what if, what if 00:36:25.662 --> 00:36:27.272 other companies want to do that? 00:36:27.822 --> 00:36:28.632 And it's well, okay. 00:36:28.632 --> 00:36:30.562 We only want the good guys to do that, I guess. 00:36:30.592 --> 00:36:31.202 But what happens is that. 00:36:31.812 --> 00:36:33.022 Other guys, we don't do that. 00:36:33.062 --> 00:36:37.122 And it's, that just seems, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not posing a solution 00:36:37.122 --> 00:36:40.002 here cause I don't know the solution right now, but I'm just, I'm just bringing these 00:36:40.002 --> 00:36:44.522 things up because I still think there's a lot of, there's people that don't care 00:36:44.522 --> 00:36:48.032 and then there's people that like do care and it's just, it's still a little foggy. 00:36:48.282 --> 00:36:52.872 So yeah, at the end of the day, it's still like all the, the majority 00:36:52.872 --> 00:36:56.382 of problems that WordPress has are human problems, less about. 00:36:56.777 --> 00:37:00.467 The software and get, well, those things happen a hundred percent. 00:37:01.107 --> 00:37:04.367 I mean, plenty of times I say plenty of times, nothing is coming to my head, 00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:07.967 but there are times where, you know, Matt has come out with decisions and was 00:37:07.967 --> 00:37:09.097 like, where, where did that come from? 00:37:09.417 --> 00:37:13.487 Like you guys were, nobody said anything about that, you know, and 00:37:13.867 --> 00:37:16.227 you know, there are countless times I'm sure people could chime in that 00:37:16.237 --> 00:37:18.487 haven't, you know, heard about all, you know, all the different things. 00:37:18.497 --> 00:37:21.847 I mean, just the recent stuff with, you know, who controls the WordPress, 00:37:22.337 --> 00:37:23.797 the WordPress Twitter account. 00:37:23.807 --> 00:37:28.132 I mean, Yeah, I'm sure you saw that when he tweeted out about getting support for 00:37:28.132 --> 00:37:33.052 the San Francisco Bay Bridge project or something like that non profit and he 00:37:33.052 --> 00:37:36.942 tweeted it out and people are like, wait a minute, why is the, why is the WordPress 00:37:37.282 --> 00:37:42.362 Twitter account tweeting out, you know, I Save, uh, save the bay project and he 00:37:42.362 --> 00:37:46.032 was just basically, he was like, I, cause this is my account, you know, it's okay. 00:37:46.102 --> 00:37:50.372 And, but you know, that was, yeah, nobody likes it and it blew up. 00:37:50.442 --> 00:37:52.962 But those are the, the, the things that, that happen. 00:37:53.002 --> 00:37:54.082 And those are the human things. 00:37:54.092 --> 00:37:54.472 Yeah. 00:37:54.862 --> 00:37:58.082 You know, contributions, people start to know each other, start to each other. 00:37:58.642 --> 00:38:02.422 I don't really think anyone is, I've never seen anything. 00:38:02.432 --> 00:38:07.922 There was one time, maybe again, somebody could jump in when Google released AMP. 00:38:07.922 --> 00:38:07.972 Okay. 00:38:08.407 --> 00:38:11.207 Wait, I don't know if you remember that Google amp, there was 00:38:11.207 --> 00:38:12.537 like a big push to have that. 00:38:12.537 --> 00:38:16.607 And I think it was in WordPress core or in jetpack. 00:38:16.607 --> 00:38:17.457 I forget what it was. 00:38:17.457 --> 00:38:19.997 It was like this whole thing that was unfolding. 00:38:20.247 --> 00:38:22.857 That was a pretty big like technical debate. 00:38:23.497 --> 00:38:26.357 I remember that from back in the day and you know, they were a sponsor or whatever. 00:38:26.357 --> 00:38:30.037 So I remember that being kind of like, Oh, you're trying to get that 00:38:30.037 --> 00:38:31.427 in there because you're at Google. 00:38:31.477 --> 00:38:34.637 So maybe there are a few times that have, you know, that has happened, but 00:38:34.647 --> 00:38:36.417 I've never really seen anything like. 00:38:37.037 --> 00:38:42.057 Go into WordPress core that just benefited some other like organization 00:38:42.567 --> 00:38:46.097 Certainly nothing like you see in commercial software You know like a 00:38:46.097 --> 00:38:50.477 default web browser that you can't change or pre loaded apps on phones that 00:38:50.517 --> 00:38:54.997 is like rampant Imagine if WordPress came with you know pre loaded plugins. 00:38:55.007 --> 00:38:55.787 Holy shit. 00:38:55.857 --> 00:38:57.037 People would lose their minds. 00:38:57.577 --> 00:39:02.567 I do Think that that's where it's going to head for automatic to survive 00:39:02.657 --> 00:39:06.807 in the future I think what we will see is when you go to wordpress. 00:39:06.807 --> 00:39:10.677 org, it will be Download wordpress with jetpack the best experience for 00:39:10.677 --> 00:39:16.187 wordpress and then below that with no shiny icon in little text download 00:39:16.197 --> 00:39:20.697 free open source WordPress you got to clip that well because it's a crazy 00:39:20.697 --> 00:39:23.417 prediction How else will automatic? 00:39:23.827 --> 00:39:28.082 Has to make money at some point and there's nothing wrong with that I actually 00:39:28.082 --> 00:39:30.152 wouldn't mind if we just got there sooner. 00:39:30.582 --> 00:39:33.712 So people could just be like, okay, here's the line in the sand. 00:39:34.022 --> 00:39:35.742 Jetpack is the way they make money. 00:39:36.112 --> 00:39:37.492 And then we have free WordPress. 00:39:37.882 --> 00:39:38.482 Fine. 00:39:38.582 --> 00:39:42.242 As long as it's not, you know, as long as it still remains open source, which 00:39:42.252 --> 00:39:45.492 it will, because that's why he, and that's what you have to do is zoom out 00:39:45.532 --> 00:39:47.612 and look at it from that perspective. 00:39:47.832 --> 00:39:52.606 He, Matt could have said, we're going to, instead of making Jetpack a 00:39:52.606 --> 00:39:54.832 standalone plugin, I'm just going to build these features into WordPress. 00:39:55.422 --> 00:39:56.362 And then give you. 00:39:56.717 --> 00:39:58.797 A feature a WordPress with these features. 00:39:59.017 --> 00:40:02.147 And I would WordPress an open source without these features. 00:40:02.457 --> 00:40:03.217 He could have done that. 00:40:03.787 --> 00:40:04.287 But he didn't. 00:40:04.337 --> 00:40:05.727 He decides to jetpack. 00:40:05.927 --> 00:40:09.607 There's other reasons like integrating with other web hosting companies probably 00:40:09.607 --> 00:40:11.107 saw that thought that was a better play. 00:40:11.277 --> 00:40:12.617 He's a better play probably. 00:40:13.307 --> 00:40:16.607 But you know, it could've gone, it could be a lot worse. 00:40:16.807 --> 00:40:17.357 I think. 00:40:17.777 --> 00:40:17.997 Help me. 00:40:18.027 --> 00:40:19.497 Help me for a second though. 00:40:19.577 --> 00:40:24.427 So you, you I've heard you the Jetpack, you know, prediction there, which 00:40:24.467 --> 00:40:26.047 like makes sense to me, but how. 00:40:26.452 --> 00:40:29.052 In that prediction, is Jetpack a paid tool? 00:40:29.102 --> 00:40:30.542 I've never specifically used it. 00:40:30.792 --> 00:40:32.842 Are you saying that like you would be forced to download 00:40:32.842 --> 00:40:36.102 WordPress with Jetpack or you could still get the regular version? 00:40:36.162 --> 00:40:40.502 Obviously this is hypothetical, but I'm, we're saying from a business perspective, 00:40:40.772 --> 00:40:42.312 how is that generating revenue? 00:40:42.332 --> 00:40:44.272 What, what's the, help me there. 00:40:44.282 --> 00:40:44.882 How would that be? 00:40:45.072 --> 00:40:51.482 So Jetpack is a product by Automatic that enhances the usability of WordPress. 00:40:51.852 --> 00:40:56.747 It basically has a, uh, It's a dozen plugins and features in it in one, 00:40:57.397 --> 00:41:00.587 one plugin, all the feet, like if you go and sign up for wordpress. 00:41:00.587 --> 00:41:03.317 com, all the cool features that they talk about at wordpress. 00:41:03.317 --> 00:41:04.417 com, it's all jetpack. 00:41:05.007 --> 00:41:08.297 If you look at pressable, another sponsor of the show, all the 00:41:08.297 --> 00:41:12.057 features in their backup security scans, statistics, it's all jetpack. 00:41:12.492 --> 00:41:13.472 That's the value add. 00:41:13.482 --> 00:41:15.932 It's to say, Hey, you don't need any other plugins. 00:41:16.052 --> 00:41:18.112 We have it all here inside Jetpack. 00:41:18.432 --> 00:41:20.412 So somebody could just put a contact form in. 00:41:20.652 --> 00:41:23.982 Do they need to go and buy gravity forms, which supports my family? 00:41:24.382 --> 00:41:26.992 No, because it's inside Jetpack, right? 00:41:27.522 --> 00:41:30.862 So it's built to enhance the experience of WordPress. 00:41:31.362 --> 00:41:32.992 So it's how they make money. 00:41:33.062 --> 00:41:36.152 It's one of their, You know, revenue makers aside from wordpress. 00:41:36.152 --> 00:41:38.962 com and, and VIP and WooCommerce, which are their, probably 00:41:38.962 --> 00:41:39.762 their leading products. 00:41:39.762 --> 00:41:40.542 I don't know their revenue. 00:41:40.932 --> 00:41:44.522 I would say that Jetpack is probably either third or fourth place 00:41:44.522 --> 00:41:48.132 in the automatic lineup in the automatic stable of, of revenue. 00:41:48.702 --> 00:41:53.532 And there will be a point where automatic instead of just continuously 00:41:53.532 --> 00:41:57.832 going out to get investment from VCs, how do we make money with this thing? 00:41:58.252 --> 00:41:59.232 And it's going to be. 00:41:59.867 --> 00:42:03.127 Looking at the millions and millions and millions of websites 00:42:03.127 --> 00:42:04.437 that are not being monetized. 00:42:04.857 --> 00:42:09.387 Can you imagine having a million Facebook profiles that didn't run ads 00:42:09.967 --> 00:42:13.487 and Facebook being like, Oh God, how are we going to monetize this network? 00:42:14.047 --> 00:42:15.007 You know, freaking run ads. 00:42:15.857 --> 00:42:16.467 That's what you're going to do. 00:42:16.627 --> 00:42:19.307 You're going to go to your million users and you're going to run ads against them. 00:42:19.307 --> 00:42:20.087 That's what you're going to do. 00:42:20.437 --> 00:42:21.677 And the same thing's going to happen. 00:42:22.077 --> 00:42:23.977 That's my prediction in order to make money. 00:42:24.427 --> 00:42:27.757 The same thing might happen where WordPress has Jetpack built in. 00:42:28.157 --> 00:42:33.547 Do you think that there would be a change to the plugin and theme situation? 00:42:33.557 --> 00:42:34.587 No, I don't. 00:42:35.067 --> 00:42:35.267 No? 00:42:35.297 --> 00:42:40.687 No, because again, open source, it's like freaking water in your basement, right? 00:42:41.097 --> 00:42:42.657 You know, water starts seeping up. 00:42:43.417 --> 00:42:45.317 And you're like, let me plug the hole over here. 00:42:45.377 --> 00:42:46.567 Water comes in another way. 00:42:46.637 --> 00:42:47.417 Let me plug that hole. 00:42:47.417 --> 00:42:48.687 Water comes in another way. 00:42:48.897 --> 00:42:51.337 And then you're like, I got to just build French trains around this thing and spend 00:42:51.337 --> 00:42:55.827 10, 000, wrap the walls and put a sub pump in, you know, it, as long as, as 00:42:55.827 --> 00:43:00.237 long as it remains open source and it's thriving, everything is moving forward. 00:43:00.237 --> 00:43:02.067 You may, it might not be in the direction you want it to 00:43:02.067 --> 00:43:03.927 go, but the framework is there. 00:43:04.327 --> 00:43:06.457 You'd still be able to do what you need to do. 00:43:06.902 --> 00:43:10.242 In a third party ecosystem might look different, might mean there's 00:43:10.242 --> 00:43:14.112 less contact form plugins in the space, you know, but you're, you 00:43:14.112 --> 00:43:15.202 know, you already see that happening. 00:43:15.202 --> 00:43:19.212 You see web hosts, acquiring plugins, awesome mode of acquiring 00:43:19.212 --> 00:43:23.162 plugins, wordpress, automatic, you know, acquiring plugins. 00:43:23.562 --> 00:43:26.342 I don't think it drastically all of a sudden there's no options. 00:43:26.752 --> 00:43:29.512 What happens to, what would have to happen for wordpress 00:43:29.512 --> 00:43:30.642 to not be open source anymore? 00:43:31.042 --> 00:43:33.492 Matt would not have to be, Matt would not be in the picture anymore. 00:43:33.942 --> 00:43:38.732 Which is a scary outcome, you know, talk about really wiping off an economy. 00:43:39.142 --> 00:43:41.602 That would be, you know, that would be huge. 00:43:41.972 --> 00:43:46.172 Imagine having, imagine license every light you would have, it would be now 00:43:46.192 --> 00:43:47.782 again, WordPress is being published. 00:43:47.792 --> 00:43:51.272 This is, this is why the GPL and open source is important because 00:43:51.672 --> 00:43:53.452 it's not like boom, all of a sudden. 00:43:53.862 --> 00:43:57.772 This thing is wiped off the face of the earth, all of that code being licensed 00:43:57.832 --> 00:44:01.882 under the GPL right now could be forked and turned into something else. 00:44:01.882 --> 00:44:05.122 So if there was like this catastrophic event where suddenly they were like, 00:44:05.132 --> 00:44:09.152 we're bringing WordPress in house, that last version of WordPress is open source 00:44:09.782 --> 00:44:13.632 and you would have, and this is why open source is great because as long as you can 00:44:13.632 --> 00:44:17.982 rally the humans, the humans would come in and say, we're starting a new project. 00:44:18.417 --> 00:44:18.617 Right. 00:44:18.617 --> 00:44:19.787 And this is actually happening. 00:44:19.817 --> 00:44:23.887 I'm not super educated on it, but Sarah Gooding, who used to write for the tavern, 00:44:23.927 --> 00:44:25.837 she's now writing for another company. 00:44:25.837 --> 00:44:28.887 I'm forgetting the name right now, but Redis, which is 00:44:28.887 --> 00:44:29.977 a, I just heard about that. 00:44:29.987 --> 00:44:33.527 It decided to, you know, pull out of the open source software and now 00:44:33.527 --> 00:44:36.717 I don't know what licensing they're on, but that's massive, right? 00:44:37.147 --> 00:44:37.897 That's massive. 00:44:38.317 --> 00:44:42.667 Any other company would be like, I'd love to make 1 from every website would be an 00:44:42.667 --> 00:44:47.207 immense amount of money because of how expansive the WordPress ecosystem is. 00:44:48.357 --> 00:44:51.587 The, the only, I don't know, I don't know where to go with this, but like 00:44:51.807 --> 00:44:54.337 the only other thing I would say there is like, how many people in like 00:44:54.337 --> 00:44:58.147 the WordPress ecosystem of the one point, how many, how many we got now? 00:44:58.157 --> 00:44:58.617 A billion? 00:44:59.147 --> 00:45:02.977 We're not 800, 800 million was the number recently of websites. 00:45:03.387 --> 00:45:03.657 Yeah. 00:45:04.087 --> 00:45:05.757 I don't remember what article I think. 00:45:06.402 --> 00:45:09.902 I think I saw 800 million and then, and then maybe some of them are dead. 00:45:09.922 --> 00:45:13.422 So maybe there's six or 500 million or something of all those. 00:45:13.462 --> 00:45:16.522 What percentage of those do you think people are using WordPress for because 00:45:16.522 --> 00:45:19.042 it's open source versus just using it? 00:45:19.052 --> 00:45:22.142 Because what percentage of those people you think actually care about open source? 00:45:22.142 --> 00:45:26.162 So if it went to, that's a crazy event, but I'm saying that that part of it's 00:45:26.162 --> 00:45:29.402 interesting to me, just like the same thing of like, how many are DIY wires 00:45:29.412 --> 00:45:31.952 versus agency based built sites. 00:45:32.352 --> 00:45:34.862 And I'm sure the number for DIY wire is a lot higher. 00:45:35.317 --> 00:45:38.887 And, and obviously that, that triggers a lot of the, the decision 00:45:38.887 --> 00:45:42.487 making and the, I don't want to say marketing necessarily, but like the 00:45:42.487 --> 00:45:45.247 actual positioning of the platform because it is for everyone, right? 00:45:45.257 --> 00:45:46.087 It's democratizing it. 00:45:46.087 --> 00:45:51.357 So those, those types of numbers and, and stats are, I think can be extremely 00:45:51.987 --> 00:45:55.327 eyeopening because I think somebody like me, I, I don't, I didn't realize 00:45:55.327 --> 00:45:59.952 until recently, there's probably a lot more DIY websites out there than, Yeah. 00:45:59.952 --> 00:46:02.902 I guess this goes full circle back to, should you care? 00:46:02.922 --> 00:46:07.302 This is why I say the, the, the adventure has to start at, do 00:46:07.302 --> 00:46:08.692 you want open source or not? 00:46:09.382 --> 00:46:13.752 Because what happens is, is people, so let me answer your question. 00:46:14.092 --> 00:46:17.112 How many people who use WordPress actually care about open source? 00:46:17.502 --> 00:46:21.452 Probably 10 to 15 percent that know it, who are responsible 00:46:21.452 --> 00:46:22.352 for all of those sites. 00:46:22.772 --> 00:46:26.772 But the other people who are using it are, they don't know. 00:46:27.187 --> 00:46:28.177 That is open source. 00:46:28.357 --> 00:46:33.047 What they do know is that they pay five, let's say 5 a month from a big web 00:46:33.047 --> 00:46:35.277 host or 10 a month from a big web host. 00:46:35.667 --> 00:46:39.327 And the only reason they can pay 5 to 10 a month is because 00:46:39.327 --> 00:46:40.697 it is free and open source. 00:46:41.007 --> 00:46:44.887 So it's the web hosts that really, web hosts are largely the ones who 00:46:44.887 --> 00:46:48.867 are responsible for getting WordPress into the globe, across the globe. 00:46:49.227 --> 00:46:52.947 Because they do it in mass and they do it affordably, right? 00:46:53.467 --> 00:46:56.247 But they will know, the end users will know that their bill is going to go 00:46:56.247 --> 00:47:00.372 from from 5 to 10 a month to 30 a month. 00:47:00.592 --> 00:47:04.752 If suddenly there's some licensing model behind WordPress, then they will 00:47:04.752 --> 00:47:07.272 care, which is going back full circle. 00:47:07.462 --> 00:47:11.722 This is why I keep talking about freaking open source and WordPress, because I 00:47:11.722 --> 00:47:17.642 want people to appreciate what WordPress, what WordPress open source affords them. 00:47:18.122 --> 00:47:22.402 It affords them a tool that they can publish their website or their 00:47:22.402 --> 00:47:23.762 thoughts and their blog with. 00:47:24.262 --> 00:47:26.802 They can move it around from web host to web host. 00:47:26.802 --> 00:47:29.372 You don't like that web host, you pick it up, you move it to another web host. 00:47:29.582 --> 00:47:31.702 They give you more, you know, give you more features. 00:47:31.702 --> 00:47:33.212 They charge you less, whatever. 00:47:33.532 --> 00:47:34.602 You can't do that. 00:47:34.652 --> 00:47:38.182 I can't take my iOS and put it on another phone. 00:47:38.702 --> 00:47:41.992 I can't take my Apple phone and put another iOS on it. 00:47:42.392 --> 00:47:43.302 I'm locked in. 00:47:43.512 --> 00:47:44.822 That's commercial software. 00:47:45.482 --> 00:47:48.042 With open source software, I have that movement. 00:47:48.502 --> 00:47:49.572 I have that affordability. 00:47:49.572 --> 00:47:50.382 I have that movement. 00:47:50.562 --> 00:47:53.842 It just comes with a cost of a learning curve. 00:47:54.227 --> 00:47:54.587 Right. 00:47:54.597 --> 00:47:55.707 It's not sexy. 00:47:55.717 --> 00:47:56.297 It's tough. 00:47:56.297 --> 00:48:00.097 It's difficult, but it's ours, you know, and that's why like, you know, 00:48:00.097 --> 00:48:05.157 My local area is like federal federal politics the news the global news I'm 00:48:05.157 --> 00:48:08.947 like man, you gotta focus on these people that are right here in front of 00:48:08.947 --> 00:48:14.577 us Let's focus on this and fix this first and that's how I feel, you know about 00:48:14.607 --> 00:48:19.037 open source Like you should appreciate not you directly mark, but we should 00:48:19.037 --> 00:48:25.507 appreciate open source Yeah, obviously A lot of benefits To open source. 00:48:25.527 --> 00:48:25.817 I don't know. 00:48:25.817 --> 00:48:28.027 I yeah, I mean just a lot of thoughts there. 00:48:28.147 --> 00:48:31.237 I mean, I don't know if you have let me go What one more step and then we'll 00:48:31.237 --> 00:48:34.437 wrap it up because we're hitting the hour This is why I'm such a huge proponent 00:48:34.437 --> 00:48:40.727 on podcasting because of RSS RSS got its ass kicked by all the big tech companies 00:48:40.727 --> 00:48:47.847 and now you consume content on platforms platforms that run ads that that mine 00:48:47.847 --> 00:48:53.962 your data and You know resell to other people and lock in that content Imagine 00:48:53.972 --> 00:48:58.802 if RSS won, which, which, and the point of me bringing this up is Matt is a 00:48:58.802 --> 00:49:02.482 huge proponent to democratizing the web. 00:49:03.092 --> 00:49:05.952 Again, you can get on the fringes and be like, Oh, you know, does he really, you 00:49:05.952 --> 00:49:07.522 can break it down, whatever, but he does. 00:49:07.542 --> 00:49:08.902 That is one of the core things. 00:49:08.902 --> 00:49:13.362 And it's why I still respect what he has done and what he 00:49:13.362 --> 00:49:15.392 continues to do in that department. 00:49:15.872 --> 00:49:19.912 because he is a huge proponent to understand whatever freedom of speech, 00:49:19.972 --> 00:49:23.982 freedom of publishing, you know, I know you brought up the data portability 00:49:23.982 --> 00:49:27.812 project, our data liberation project. 00:49:27.812 --> 00:49:30.592 Like that's not, you know, I know on the surface you look at that and you're like, 00:49:30.592 --> 00:49:33.282 Oh God, like they just want to, they just want to take it from everybody else. 00:49:33.282 --> 00:49:33.422 Yeah. 00:49:33.422 --> 00:49:35.382 But it's also both, it's both ways. 00:49:36.072 --> 00:49:36.992 It is both ways. 00:49:37.432 --> 00:49:39.172 He's a huge proponent on that. 00:49:39.452 --> 00:49:43.392 So RSS open publishing, very important. 00:49:44.042 --> 00:49:49.832 You know, for, for humanity, because then where do you get your, your information 00:49:49.832 --> 00:49:54.822 from if it's all just in Facebook, Twitter, and social media platforms, 00:49:55.252 --> 00:49:58.632 what that doesn't do any of us any good, there'll, there'll be an algorithm, 00:49:58.642 --> 00:50:02.632 there'll be a price of the entry, there'll be a filter on it, and we're all screwed. 00:50:03.037 --> 00:50:06.737 Again, that's why WordPress is so important because WordPress, every website 00:50:06.747 --> 00:50:12.347 has an RSS is built in by default, still to this day that you can just subscribe 00:50:12.347 --> 00:50:14.267 to any WordPress site with an RSS reader. 00:50:14.702 --> 00:50:16.552 You know, it's, it's, it's freaking amazing. 00:50:16.952 --> 00:50:18.312 Imagine the world goes dark. 00:50:18.342 --> 00:50:23.122 The only way you can communicate is through a low latency, a low 00:50:23.142 --> 00:50:25.512 bandwidth network is going to win. 00:50:25.662 --> 00:50:30.262 It's like the QR code had its heyday come back when the pandemic hit. 00:50:30.542 --> 00:50:32.332 Can't touch anything, gotta scan it. 00:50:32.492 --> 00:50:35.542 Thank God for the QR code, everyone's shit on the QR code for years. 00:50:35.542 --> 00:50:36.272 That's so stupid. 00:50:36.592 --> 00:50:37.352 Look at that thing. 00:50:37.502 --> 00:50:38.202 It's ridiculous. 00:50:38.202 --> 00:50:39.112 Who's ever gonna do that? 00:50:39.142 --> 00:50:40.342 And then the QR code came back. 00:50:40.372 --> 00:50:41.002 Remember me? 00:50:41.382 --> 00:50:43.072 Like, you guys can't touch these menus. 00:50:43.312 --> 00:50:44.462 You gotta scan this thing. 00:50:44.802 --> 00:50:45.142 Right? 00:50:45.292 --> 00:50:47.192 RSS is like the same thing, man. 00:50:47.392 --> 00:50:50.362 It's, it's there and it's gonna be one of the most important things. 00:50:50.372 --> 00:50:53.092 It's the most important thing in, in, in podcasting for sure. 00:50:53.442 --> 00:50:56.092 But it should be back in content publishing. 00:50:56.382 --> 00:50:57.562 Fediverse, etc, etc. 00:50:57.572 --> 00:50:59.072 Again, I'm not this diehard. 00:50:59.617 --> 00:51:01.277 About it because it's a lot of technical stuff. 00:51:01.277 --> 00:51:07.347 I don't know, but I know I, I vote with that because it gives us the most 00:51:07.407 --> 00:51:12.827 freedom and movement as humans with our content and our communication and 00:51:12.827 --> 00:51:14.757 our communication speechless, man. 00:51:15.347 --> 00:51:18.377 I mean, I mean, that has nothing to do with, you know, can I make money 00:51:18.377 --> 00:51:20.257 with my WordPress business this way? 00:51:20.387 --> 00:51:23.637 But again, this is why it all starts up up here for me picking, 00:51:23.727 --> 00:51:26.247 do I want an open source thing or do I want a commercial thing? 00:51:26.607 --> 00:51:31.097 Go commercial if you do it, you know, if, depending on what it is that you 00:51:31.097 --> 00:51:34.707 need, I get, I'm excited to know about Webflow next week with not Sam Smith, 00:51:34.707 --> 00:51:39.287 Sam Harris, and a lot of, I guess her friends at 10 up and Brad Miller and 00:51:39.287 --> 00:51:41.277 he hit me up the other day, he's like, you want to be in the Webflow group? 00:51:41.277 --> 00:51:43.550 I'm like, no, I want to be in the Webflow. 00:51:43.550 --> 00:51:44.587 I don't want to be in the Webflow group. 00:51:44.587 --> 00:51:46.007 What the hell do I want to be in the Webflow group for? 00:51:46.397 --> 00:51:48.357 And he's like, Oh, we've been using Webflow at 10 up and 00:51:48.357 --> 00:51:50.697 it's a, you know, it's a great solution for certain customers. 00:51:51.037 --> 00:51:53.197 Okay, well that's telling. 00:51:53.197 --> 00:51:53.267 Hmm. 00:51:53.597 --> 00:51:59.057 You know, if a open source agency built off a lot of historic things 00:51:59.057 --> 00:52:03.077 in the WordPress space is starting to explore Webflow makes sense from a 00:52:03.077 --> 00:52:05.457 business, but I love my open source. 00:52:05.877 --> 00:52:07.707 I'll be really interested to hear that perspective. 00:52:07.717 --> 00:52:10.747 I've watched some other Webflow content and I know some agencies that have 00:52:10.767 --> 00:52:15.347 kind of adopted it here and there makes sense from a simplicity standpoint, but. 00:52:15.702 --> 00:52:19.362 In certain ways, but yeah, I'm in the open source side of it, you know, not 00:52:19.362 --> 00:52:24.672 so sure, but again, I mean, at a high level to wrap like the, to wrap kind of 00:52:24.672 --> 00:52:27.732 like a lot of, you know, what you said and what we talked about here is like, 00:52:27.992 --> 00:52:30.882 if WordPress is going that way and like with core and Gutenberg and everything 00:52:30.882 --> 00:52:35.392 like that, and we're building for, you know, you know, that editor at its core 00:52:35.392 --> 00:52:40.362 kind of is being built like pseudo for DIY and obviously simple, but extendable. 00:52:40.862 --> 00:52:45.452 Then I think if we just understand that too, as agencies and other users of 00:52:45.452 --> 00:52:48.642 WordPress, then there's always going to be other tools to use, you know, 00:52:48.692 --> 00:52:50.932 Elementor, Bricks, Divi, whatever, XYZ. 00:52:51.132 --> 00:52:54.082 I, I think that's still going to be a win, you know, it's going to be still the 00:52:54.082 --> 00:52:57.082 best platform for a long time, assuming none of those things that we kind of, 00:52:57.132 --> 00:53:00.432 you know, those crazy events that we talked about here change, you know, and 00:53:00.432 --> 00:53:01.942 I'm, I'm definitely optimistic on it. 00:53:01.952 --> 00:53:04.602 It's just, I always wanted to see it continue to get better. 00:53:04.602 --> 00:53:07.732 And that's the only thing I would say is a lot of times when people 00:53:07.732 --> 00:53:10.982 are critiquing, I think we're, we're doing it from a place of. 00:53:11.367 --> 00:53:15.467 Love, ultimately, and, and goodwill, even though if it's not presented, 00:53:15.467 --> 00:53:17.212 always the best, and Yeah. 00:53:17.362 --> 00:53:18.602 That's just, I don't know. 00:53:18.602 --> 00:53:19.642 I'm excited to see where it goes. 00:53:19.642 --> 00:53:21.302 This is a great community to be a part of, for sure. 00:53:21.502 --> 00:53:23.702 Mark Szymanski, where can folks find you to say thanks? 00:53:24.112 --> 00:53:28.672 If you just go to MJ Bio, it's kind of like a, all my links there, my socials, 00:53:28.692 --> 00:53:31.442 and sign up for my newsletter if you want, if I ever send anything out of there. 00:53:31.442 --> 00:53:32.292 Working on a website. 00:53:32.292 --> 00:53:33.862 So, more content coming soon. 00:53:34.012 --> 00:53:35.372 Painter's house is never painted. 00:53:35.612 --> 00:53:36.432 The WP minute. 00:53:36.432 --> 00:53:37.512 com the WP minute. 00:53:37.512 --> 00:53:38.722 com slash subscribe. 00:53:38.722 --> 00:53:41.852 You're watching today's video on the podcast YouTube channel. 00:53:42.082 --> 00:53:44.112 Don't forget to subscribe to youtube. 00:53:44.112 --> 00:53:45.822 com slash at WP minute. 00:53:46.012 --> 00:53:47.072 We'll see you in the next episode.