Zoe: Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast. Brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.

Paula: Eli has managed to sneak away from the rest of the party on the pretext of prayer, grateful that he hasn't been followed into the forest. He sinks to the ground and finally lets himself feel all the frustration and disappointment that has been building for days. Now, he pulls out the battered little book that he'd hoped would guide him on his spiritual journey as a servant of the God tear.

He almost laughs when he recalls how desperate he had felt, how anxious he'd been for any sort of guidance. It turns out that this old wizard's, dusty copy of a very beginner's guide to religious life was not going to provide that. But time and time again, he looked for answers there all the questions about good and evil, about morality of their quest, about how and when he should pray.

But this book has provided nothing. He's read it covered to cover many times over, and today's just the final straw. The book is a distraction. He only needs to trust Tear and he'll find the right path. He hesitates for only a second before striking a match and setting the small booka blaze. Eli is transfixed by the flames he watches.

As the bastard pages of the book start to curl in on themselves, and when the faded script from the cover becomes illegible, he closes his eyes and takes a deep breath. The smell of burning parchment overwhelming for just a second begins to fade quickly. He feels warmth from the fire, but it seems to be coming from somewhere inside him too, like something is drawing him into the warmth.

When he opens his eyes, he isn't sitting by the burning book any longer. 

Harry: Eh, eh, eh. Now you are a strange sight.

Paula: Who are you?

Harry: Well, I ate here, 

Paula: aren't you? 

Harry: No boy. I am half Fang the sturdy. Eli, can you roll for history please? 

Paula: 18. 

Harry: Oh, okay. So within 18, Eli knows this name. He's definitely heard of Harang in the lits of the temples back home. He knows that Harang is the ascended champion of Tia raised up from the mortal world at the moment of his death, so that he might act as an envoy to the God tear.

He's a messenger to the mortal world. A visitor in the hereafter. Within 18, you can definitely tell his tone in his tone that he was expecting you here and that you're at a crossroads. It takes a second and asks you this. Now what will it be? What do you want to ask? 

Paula: Am I doing the right thing?

Zoe: Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of Autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.

This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Auman Theology, which we've , shortened to Cat. Obviously, that was a slightly different introduction to the episode than you're normally used to. Today I'm joined by Harry and Paula, two PhD students at the University of Aberdeen, and we're gonna be chatting about their work on d and d.

So we felt it was appropriate to start with a little excerpt. If you've not played d and d before, um, Harry or Paula. I wonder if you would like to give like a very short explanation of what d and d is. 

Harry: Yeah, sure. So d and d or Dungeons and Dragons is a tabletop role playing game.

Um, so we all sit round a table. Um, we all have characters we play, um, and throughout the game, the game is to tell a really interesting story. Um, this is a bit different to like a board game. You played Monopoly or something like that before. This is less about winning and more about crafting a narrative.

Really it's about this, um. Improvised creative writing as a group type exercise, um, all under the guise of quests and dungeons and monsters and, and the like.

Zoe: What's particularly fun about this episode is that me, Harry, and Paula, and another PhD student at the University of Aberdeen all play d and d together. So it's, yeah, very fun having you both on. So Paula and Harry have recently written a book chapter that's due to be published this summer.

I wonder if you can give a little bit of an overview, um, either or both of you, about what the book chapter's on and how you engage with d and d from a theological perspective. 

Paula: Um, it was, uh. A call for paper is about, um, creative writing and mental health and wellbeing, and we immediately thought that like Dungeons and Dragons fits right into that category.

Um, we did have to dial back a little on our theology for this one because it's some more broad sort of spectrum, but 'cause more like situated in creative writing and, um, literature. Um. So there's definitely more scope for us to like add some more theology back into what we were writing, but we were primarily focusing on, um, my experience of living with OCD and how I've sort of accidentally found that playing Dungeons and Dragons has been quite helpful.

Harry: Yeah. So, uh, the, the book is called Creative Writing and Wellbeing Research Theory and Practice Beyond Words. Um, and as Paula said, uh, we just felt really drawn to this idea that d and d is a way of doing creative writing.

Uh, there's a bit weird and a bit different. Um, a lot of the other, um. Great pieces that have been written for this book take a more literal approach to creative writing, and I thought that this was a great opportunity to do something that's really, um, well creative in a very different way, but still draws on those same, same ideas.

Paula: I think I really like that it kind of draws on like traditional elements of like collaborative storytelling. Like the sort of, if you go way, way back, like the sort of oral history or oral tradition of sharing a story together and kind of adding to that with each retelling. I quite like that about d and d and that we're working together to create this like game world, um, with like layers of narrative for each character.

And Harry's the um. DM or Dungeon Master for our game, so has kind of created this game world that we play in and we all bring bits of our characters to that and add things to the universe, um, which is just really cool. I think it's a really, um, different way of looking at creative writing that I think is, it's quite fun.

Zoe: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think you can definitely see that in the excerpt that you read both of you at the beginning of the episode, that kind of like layers of narrative that you're talking about, Paula like. The characters, you get to know them personally, which is quite interesting. And um, yeah, it's not just disjointed, almost feels like a TV series in some ways when you're just like getting to know them and seeing insights.

Um, so obviously you've said that. In your book chapter, you talk about like d and d and mental health and neuro diversity, particularly with your OCD Paula. Um, and as far as you feel comfortable sharing, um, how have you both found that d and d has helped you navigate your own neurodivergent identities?

Harry: Uh, so I have, uh, written a little bit, um, about, uh, what it's like to, uh, use d and d, uh, to explore what it means for me to be autistic. Um, and it's something that as I really got to grips with playing d and d as it moved from like just being this fun little hobby to something I really was quite passionate about, it kind of met me at the same time as I was dealing with, uh.

How I felt about using the term autistic to describe myself. 'cause initially I was, I was quite embarrassed about it. Um, I didn't tell a lot of people really. Um, and if it got brought up, I would find a way to like skirt around it a bit. Um, so the idea was. Uh, to use d and d as a way of asking, well, what would Harry look like?

What would he act like if actually he was very confident about being autistic? And so I, uh, created a character. D and d is all about the characters, really. Um, you as a player, you craft this person you want to be. Um, you ask what their flaws are, what their bonds are, what their ideals, morals, all of that, um, all coated in this fantasy paint of, you know, exciting adventures and quests.

But really at the core of it is that, well, what does it mean to actually become someone who isn't me and to experience the world differently? A lot of people, um, myself included, kind of enter the d and d by building a character that's very similar to themselves. And what I wanted to do, uh, was to take that idea and dial up to 11 a bit and say, well, look, I've noticed that I.

Hold a lot of insecurity really about being autistic. Um, I don't like talking about it. I don't like people bringing it up. I don't like it when people notice, even if they don't use the word autistic, but they notice that something's up. Um, so what would it be like if I played a character that was like that but did not care and actually.

What, how was his relationships with the other players? How, how did that like come about? Um, how would they interpret his actions that were a bit odd or strange? Um, and I found myself kind of learning a lot about what Harry was like as well. Um, realizing, uh, how I would speak differently or act differently, approach situations differently.

Um, and then I could come to a question of like, right, well, that's. I feel like this is a very healthy way to explore what it means to, uh, purposefully try something new in terms of how you, um, experience the world. Some of it is, is just for the game world and it stays there. Um, and that's fine. And some of it is just for a laugh.

It's just for fun. 'cause ultimately it's a game with your mates. Uh. But there were absolutely things that I kind of took away from it and thought, well actually it was great being that confident. So may, what happens if I push myself to be a bit more that like that in the real world? Um, yeah. Paula, I dunno if you have a similar reflection.

Paula: Yeah, definitely. I really like what you said and I just wanted to pick up on one thing it, about it being just a game with your mates. And I think that's like a huge thing for me in that, um. Having that level of trust with my friends and like. Just being with people that kind of get what I am going through with have, um, living with OD um, makes such a difference.

But, um, for me, I've had, um, a diagnosis OD for a little while and for me it meant that like my engagement with books and movies and TV shows has become quite restrictive. 'cause I've, um. I'm afraid of like the unexpected triggering topics or like things that might set off a very intrusive thought spiral that is just difficult to, to navigate and to manage.

But I've found through playing d and d that I'm less afraid of those topics and less afraid of uncertainty. Um, which is really cool because in my real life I, I try, um, very hard at times to avoid. Uncertainty to avoid like TV shows that I don't know what's gonna happen. Like what if a character dies, how am I gonna feel about that?

Et cetera, et cetera. But in d and d, like we like go in these quests and we. Like encounter dangerous situations in death and sometimes we kill characters and that kind of thing. And I found to my sort of surprise that I was actually feeling okay. Um, and I didn't go home having a sort of thought spiral about, oh no, well what happens?

What does this mean? And like overthinking what had said, my actions and everything. 'cause in DMD you don't really have time to. Doubt yourself and doubt your actions. Like if we're in a sort of combat scenario where we're like fighting off hoards of trolls or whatever, we don't have time to sort of do something and then go, oh actually I didn't like how I did that.

Can we do that over? You kind of just roll with it, and I really benefited from that. I think like just playing a character that didn't care so much about like. What he was gonna feel like after he did something or trying to prevent worries or trying to prevent like bad things from happening. Like, yeah, it was just really cool and it was sort of an accidental discovery.

I didn't make a kind of conscious choice to play a character that, um, is better at those things than I am. Um, not intentionally anyway, but um, yeah, it's definitely helped a lot just in a sort of unexpected kind of way. 

Zoe: Is that pun intentional. You just roll with it.

Paula: It wasn't, but maybe that's kind of how, um, how ingrained is in my everyday life now.

Oh, no. 

Zoe: Thank you so much both for those reflections. And I think it is so interesting how like both experiences intersect and like very different ways, like that kind of idea of like creating a character that has elements of like. Maybe things that you're not so confident talking about or addressing, but also like ways that you would maybe like to see yourself or things that, um, you wanna explore further about yourself.

Harry, I remember as well, like one of your games that you play someone playing like a really evil character just to see what it would be like to play an evil character. And I found that fascinating. 'cause it's like, well you can do those things in a safe space and be like, okay, well, like what am I, what makes me uncomfortable?

And like how far can I go when acting something?

Harry: I think it is a really, one of the, I think to, to develop this and evolve it to that kind of next stage of complexity is to ask, okay, so I've played characters that.

Take on ideas or characteristics that I want to see in myself. Maybe it's that confidence I was talking about earlier, that lack of insecurity. Um, but what happens if you take, you basically go the other direction and you say, what is it like to play a character? That is very different to me, not because I want to necessarily be like that.

But because it's gonna push my abilities. Um, in terms of like acting basically, is it in terms of improvisation, in terms of pretending to be someone else, um, what happens, say if you play a character who's morally quite different to you? Um, I've played characters that, um, are. Um, uh, this is not particularly humble of me and is perhaps slightly ironic.

I consider myself quite a humble person and so I played a character that was incredibly arrogant. I was like, I, I really wanna be that kind of Draco Malfoy esque. My father will hear about this type guy. Um, and it was a challenge, but it was also fun. It was really interesting to play a character like that and it.

It created a story that was really rich and interesting, um, and bigger than just repeating fantasy novel tropes that we might be used to, uh, but becoming a unique, original story in itself that is just for me and my friends to enjoy. It's not. Something that we're gonna write into a novel and sell and make millions out of.

It's just purely for the love of the arts, and I think that's amazing and something that we have maybe forgotten about. Um, and it's good, a good thing to practice and to, to, to push yourself with.

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. It just sounds, I think that is so fascinating that kind of, and like to me it fascinates me 'cause it's like I wonder how much you learn about your own boundaries with things that you maybe wouldn't because you're never, like, you're always trying to be, I guess a lot of the time we're trying to be good people.

So then like how, I guess like in trying to like put yourself into those scenarios, you're being like, okay, well, like what am I personally comfortable with as well? Which like. It's quite a fascinating thing. Um, yeah. Like, and then that kinda like separation between you and the character. It's, yeah. Really interesting.

We could talk about that for ages. Mm-hmm. But I guess like, um, I'm actually gonna. Skip forward a question and then back again because I think this ties into the question that I wanted to ask about creating environments that are mindful and safe for neurodiversity. And, you know, both of you talked about exploring different aspects of yourself through your characters or different, um, different topics and uncertainties.

Obviously that is great if it's within a safe environment, but that can also be a very vulnerable place to put yourself if you're not comfortable. So I wondered if you could share both of you, I guess Harry, as DM, but also Paula as someone who engages in d and d games, how do you mindfully create and participate in an environment that's mindful and, um, respectful, I guess, of neurodiversity and how people might be coming into the space?

Harry: So. Just in the interest of being really clear, um, there are two kind of roles in d and d generally speaking. There's the, the dungeon master or game master, sometimes it's called, uh, the dm and then there's the players. The role of the DM is to facilitate the game effectively. The classic, um, line that's usually used in these kind of conversations is it's the dms job to imagine the world.

The players then immerse themselves in that world, and they're the really ones driving the story. The DM is often like throwing them various threads or hooks for the, for the story to get going. Um, but really it's up to the players, uh, if they want to completely ignore that and actually go off and do something completely unexpected, which almost always happens at some point.

Then it's the dms job to kind of imagine that that means that there's a lot of responsibility, I think, on the DM to create an environment in which all of the players really can be, um, comfortable enough to. Uh, to immerse themselves in that world. Um, there's a lot of great resources out there to help do this.

Um, in fact, in the newest edition of the rules, the official d and d rules, there is a template in the books for, um, what's called a session zero checklist. Session zero would be like your very first. Game together before you've really started playing, where you're gonna source all the details out. Um, and part of that is to address what things are people comfortable with?

Are there particular topics you want to avoid? So if someone, um, has a, a really considerable fear of spiders, then maybe it wouldn't be. Particularly great for them to play in a story in which there are giant spiders all over the place. Inevitably, they're going to be made more uncomfortable than the rest of the players, and if the aim.

Really, the aim of this game is to have fun with your friends and to tell a good story. We want to remove as many barriers as possible for people to have a say in writing that story. And so in the case of the, the person with the fear of spiders, maybe there's just a blanket rule that when, when the DM is thinking about monsters to encounter creatures to fight in the enchanted forest, maybe they just stick away from the spiders and they do something else.

In our case, um, Paula, I dunno, what if, if you would rather speak about what we talked about in terms of death before we started playing? 

Paula: Yeah. Um, as a topic. That's something that I find quite difficult to navigate with OCD. It tends to like just set me off and sort of chaos, brain spiral. Um, so I spoke to Harry about this before.

Um, we started playing and it was really interesting because, um, Zoe's character is. Um, obsessed with death and I met that both Zoe and Harry checked in with me, that that was something that was gonna be okay for me to sort of be in a game world with. And I actually found that, yeah, it was, 'cause it was in a sort of fictional setting, it was the people that would kind of get it if I said, well actually today I'm feeling a little bit like on edge.

Um, can we sort of lean away from that kind of topic? Um. And we kind of figured out some of the nuance. So like what would be difficult? What would be kind of Okay. Um, 'cause one of my other games I've ended up playing a Necro answer who like hangs both ghosts all the time. And in terms of like OCD treatment, it's ex excellent exposure therapy because it is like, I found that it's a sort of step removed from me.

Um, so all of these things are happening to my character Eli, or mix of my other game. Um, they're not happening to. Me and that makes it like a little bit, I don't know, less personal, but also I get a real benefit from sort of being with friends and kind of thinking through these difficult topics together.

Um, and I would say this is something that Harry does exceptionally well, is like checking in with us to make sure that everything's kind of, it's things are still fun. Um, I think there was an example like early on, I think you'll both remember this, when your character Zoe was. I can't remember. You were rummaging about a skeleton or something or what, what was it?

Harri, you can probably remember it when. Yes. 

Harry: Um, I, if I remember right, uh, you were all in a tomb. You're in like an ancient woven tomb. And I wanted to heighten the, um, the threat of, uh, you've been spotted. Um, you are not here alone. And the way I did that. Is, um. The party was surrounded by these, uh, these large, uh, stone coffins.

Um, and they could hear the bones of the skeletons within That was it? Yeah. Starting to quiver. Um, and yeah, lo and behold, the party went right. We're outta here. We are getting outta here right now 'cause they're about to bust out. Get us, which was the intended effect. Um, but then I realized afterwards, um, this was quite early on in, in the campaign actually, wasn't it?

It was maybe two or three sessions in. Mm-hmm. I thought to myself, Ooh, was that the most sensible thing to do, um, considering what me and Paula talked about. So I just checked in with her afterwards. To get a grasp of like how she felt, was it something that actually was, was fine? Is this exactly the kind of thing that maybe we should stick away from?

Um. So it was a good moment of like, uh, recognizing that maybe I, um, I let that slip, I'd forgotten 'cause we're only human, we're gonna make mistakes. I'd forgotten that we'd had this conversation and that maybe setting that in a ancient dwarf tomb, um, wasn't the best idea. Um, in hindsight. It was okay in the end.

Yeah, I remember you saying that. It was fine. Uh, but it has definitely shaped, um, then how I've driven that story. Um, what the, the world I have imagined for them just to, um, lean slightly further away from setting, uh, game encounters in graveyards or tombs or catacombs or whatever it is. Um, yeah. 

Paula: I find that really helpful.

It makes me feel really safe when I'm playing that we kind of can have that conversation quite openly. And it's also helped me kind of figure out what exactly it is that I find difficult because it, the worst part of my OCD before I had any treatment at all, it would be like a blanket. No, I can't think about anything related to that ever, but it's kind of through playing d and d, it's kind of helped me like identify, like.

What the specific things are that's act what's actually the problem was feeding my OCD rather than, um, and sort of being able to add like elements of like fantasy threat back into my life. Um, and yeah, that's been really kind of fun, like being able to sort of realize that I can sit with that and sit with a fictional discomfort.

Um, so that's been kind of cool. And I remember there was something, um. That you said once, Zoe. Um, where you said you were uncomfortable, but you'd meant it to come from your character. But we'd stopped and we spoke about it for a minute and that was really, yeah, that was just really cool. Like it was nice that we could like kind of press pause and like make sure that everyone was okay.

Harry: Like yeah, I remember. If I remember right, it was, I gave a description of, I think Zoe's character had found a dead body or So someone who had been attacked by a werewolf. Yeah. Is the idea. Um, and I narrated like as, as you look around the corner, this is what you see. Um, and Zoe, if I remember right, you then spoke kind of in character.

But I interpreted it as Zoe panicking about Harry suddenly stepping over a line in terms of how gory to be or how violent to describe the scene. Um, I dunno if you wanna, I'm, I'm the podcast host now, Zoe. How did that make you feel? Can you give us a bit of a reflection on that please? 

Zoe: Some reverse roles.

Now you're the podcast dm. Um, no, I was just thinking about that when you were chatting about that. It was exactly that, like you were describing in great detail, this very gory scene. Um, and yeah, I think I, like my character had said like, oh, this even makes me feel uncomfortable. Um, yeah, we like stopped the game and I think that was like, even though we were all like, oh no, this is quite funny.

It's just like. Bit gross. Um, like even I think it was that like willingness to just like pause the game is an important thing.

And that is particularly important when we're dealing with slightly gruesome things sometimes. Um, yeah, and I think I would also say with that, like there's a relationship between all of us. We do know each other outside of the game, and I think that helps, um, to kind of just yeah, create those safe environments.

Harry: There's this weird, I have noticed this weird phenomenon with d and d where you can play. I've played in a game for nearly 10 years. I think it's nine years, and something I'd rather know. Um, it started in person and then we all dispersed, and so we carried it on online. Um, and so there are people in that group who I, I met because we started the d and d group.

Um, one guy in particular, um, who was the DM in this game and has since kind of passed that baton on someone else. And now he's a player. Um, but I met him. Because he wanted to start this group. Um, and the vast, vast majority and the amount of time I have spent with him is pretending to be other people.

It's putting on silly voices and talking about nonsense fantasy worlds that exist only in our heads. And yet, in a weird way, I have found, I have gotten to know him quite well and I would hope he would reciprocate that. Um. That notion, uh, that we have actually, we've formed a really good friendship there.

Even though most of that isn't catching up in the way, you know, going for a coffee, you would maybe imagine a normal friendship working. It's all been in this fantasy world. And I I causes me to wonder actually, is there part of this, when we talk about how the characters take on a part of yourself and you make that decision about, oh, this is gonna be.

What I kind of let in from myself into the character. This is, this is what I'm not going to let in from myself into the character. Inevitably, you learn about each other. Um, you learn, you, you form community, and I think that that's the, a really wonderful thing about d and d, which sets it apart perhaps from.

Other types of games, um, other, other types of, um, kind of community activities. I think it's, uh, it's a really in a unique place in that it, it makes writing a story as a team very accessible, I think, um, in a way that I don't really think we get from other, other places. Yeah,

Paula: and I think just to kind of build on that, that you kind of get to. Know the players as well and like for us, I think we talk about neurodiversity quite a lot and sometimes it's like little things like Zoe and I for a while were swapping the 20 side dice with each other because both of us were, were varying neurodiversity fine.

It difficult to pick them out of a lineup and it was made, it was like a little thing like in game adjustment that just made it so much more like quickly accessible to both of us. Being able to spot the most frequently used dice by changing the color with a friend. Like yeah, it's like, it's having that kind of understanding of the, the people around you and what might make their gameplay experience just like a little bit easier.

Um, yeah. I really like that about d and d. You can make it as accessible as you want it to be really. 'cause at the heart of it, it is kind of just collaborative storytelling and all of the, the dice and the character sheets and things are kind of, yeah. Tools to help you, but you can adapt them as much as you want.

Um, yeah. 

Harry: Yeah, it is sometimes quite daunting the amount that is going on in the kind of official rules. Uh, but that, as I said before, there are tons of resources online advice, just like little tips, uh, that take into account neurodiversity quite explicitly. One of those, in fact, the whole swapping. The 20 sided dice so that you have a different color than the rest of your dice.

Um, that was an idea I got just by googling like tips for neurodivergent players, D and d that came up straight away. I was like, perfect. That's a, that's such an easy change to make. Uh, but there's also, you know, character sheets, uh, that are designed in a way that. Maybe emphasizes the important information a bit better or simplifies the detail down so you don't have these walls of text.

There is tons of stuff out there. I. 

Paula: Speaking about walls of text, so that's kind of funny. Um, I was thinking when we started playing, um, I played before, but Zoe and um, our fourth player didn't, hadn't played d and d before. And we would come into Harry's kitchen and he'd have a rule for the week written up on the blackboard, on the wall.

And that was the kind of rule that we were, that game mechanic thing we were learning that week about it was like combat encounters or. Like a specific thing that was in the rule book, but it just made it such a manageable way to learn the game rather than trying to do everything all at once. Like the first week, we would have a more kind of role play based chatty episode.

And then the next one would be, we would learn the mechanics behind a combat encounter in d and D. Um. It was just cool. But I remember going into your kitchen with, I was like, ah, I should maybe be afraid we're gonna be attacked. 

Zoe: Did that like really confuse your kids the next day, Harry being like, yeah, I'm learning about combat today.

Harry: Yeah. Sometimes they would be, they would be more annoyed that I'd have to get rid of their drawing of a chicken or whatever it was so that I could write some nonsense about Dungeons and Dragons. Although quickly they would replace the chicken. The chicken would come back obviously. 

Zoe: I think another interesting thing, just like another accessibility thing you'd like, um, put little like color coding on the sheets so that you could be like, right flick the orange sheet.

And that should have worked in theory, but my issue is I'm incredibly disorganized, so my folder is a mess and I've got like three different character sheets from different levels, but in theory that one worked. Um, but obviously we've spoken quite a bit about like personal experiences of playing the game.

Um. But I wonder if we could kind of move a little bit back to the research and the theological reflection on things. Um, and I was wondering what parts of both of your reflections and research impacted you the most while you were thinking about and writing the chapter? I.

Paula: I think something we built on AF after we wrote the chapter, we went to the ecclesiology and Ethnography conference in Durham, which is Fab if you haven't been. It's really good. It's a really sort of supportive atmosphere and we kind of started to focus a little bit more on what it meant for us to give something to the character, but also to kind of get something back from playing that character.

Um. And the sort of things that, the decisions you make, what parts of yourself are a part of that character. And I think that's fascinating. Like I would love to, um, read a bit more about that and sort of develop that line of thinking, um, and kind of figure out what it means to play a character. How much of that character is you and like vice versa, what do you learn from playing that character?

Um. I guess an example where we added her paper at, at the Durham conference was we'd encountered this very, very elderly dog in a, in a sort of cottage in the middle of nowhere. And this dog was having, its like retirement. And I adore dogs in real life, and I had to sit and make this decision about whether Eli, my character would also, how would, would he have seen a dog before?

Would he have the same natural desire to hug every single dog he sees that I do. Um. I decided that yes, he did like dogs, but, so that was something I kind of added from me. But I then I had to really think about what, what would he really do in that situation? And we kind of decided it ended up in like some little bit of lure further and it came that he.

Only ever saw these dogs as working dogs. And yeah, like it really makes you kind of challenge your automatic reaction or automatic response. Like, well what if, what would it be like if I didn't like dogs? And you can kind of magnify that to any sort of scenario. It could become a much more sort of substantial thing than whether or not you like a dog.

But, um, there's something fascinating in that about when you're playing a character. I think it was Bleed We spoke about like what bleeds through what bleeds back. Um, yeah. That's where my sort of research interest lies now. But Harry, yeah. 

Harry: To. Carry on with that example as well. I think it would be easy to hear Paul's description of that and to say, oh wow, how, what, like a complex, um, moment for, for Paul as a player.

Um, and how well thought out on Harry Path as the DM to think about, um, what was going to kind of really mean something to Paula. But the reality is. That a lot of that was completely improvised. Um, I would love to say that I had thought for hours and hours and hours about what was gonna really make Paula think, um, about her character's backstory and, and what values from the character's upbringing is she gonna now pull into the way she plays the character.

In the game, but I didn't. Um, the reality was, is I had simply decided that at this cottage, the guy who owned it, he's a, a, a farmer. He, he works there by himself. Um, I, uh, where I live, I know a lot of farming families, they all have dogs. Um, and so I was like, cool, this guy's gonna have a dog as well. Um. And then when I noticed that Eli Paula's character was particularly drawn to the dog.

Then as we were playing, I started to develop it, and I thought, right, Paula, Eli has been drawn into this moment. Why does it matter? Okay, so it's a breed of dog that Eli is very familiar with and then it quite naturally unraveled from there. Um, where we found a reason for Eli to care about that in particular, it's not just that he likes dogs, it's that he has never seen.

A dog like this grow into his old age because where he is from, they would be worked to death. And that causes him to feel both a great sadness for the place he came from and the culture. Of his upbringing and kind of a deep love for the animal he's in front of now. What an amazing moment to see a dog that's lived this long life and that causes an emotional response.

Yeah, I cry. I think that's great. Yeah, I think that's amazing and it's such a. On a surface level, maybe it's a throwaway moment. Maybe we'll never see one of those dogs again. Maybe it'll never come back up. But in that moment, I think we told a story that had meaning, we told a story that reflected parts of.

The real world around us and what we care about, um, how our emotional response is poured into the story that we're telling. And I think that there is a theology in that. I think that there is something to say about how we tell our own stories, um, through faith as well, through religious practice, through rituals, through finding those stories in the Bible and drawing them into, into what that means for us today.

I have to wonder, well, where does something like d and d, that roleplaying experience, how does that draw on the same theological nuances, I guess? Yeah, I think that's really cool. Sorry, sorry. No, go ahead.

Paula: I was thinking about, um, when we were kind of creating the character of Eli, he's a Paladin who serves the God here and.

Religious doubt is something I kind of struggle with quite a lot about. Like, um, like am I faithful enough? Do I believe this enough? Um, and I was playing Eli as somebody who was like, this is my God and I believe in this wholeheartedly. And like there is no questions, no like doubts and playing. That was really kind of fun.

And it kind of, let me think sort of theologically about what it would mean to not. Experience that kind of human doubt and anxiety, like I think a lot of people do experience. Um, so being able to kind of have a go at it, not questioning anything and just enjoying sort of faith experience was really cool.

Um, even if it was a sort of game parallel to real life,

Zoe: then I think what's really interesting about that is like. Thinking theologically and kind of like, um, faith wise, your character started out like that, but then naturally the questions started coming in. Yes. And even that says something really interestingly theologically.

It's like, well. Maybe that suggests that like questions and doubting is a normal human experience and like you can never have that absolute certainty, um, of anything I get. Like it is just an interesting like that in itself. I find that really fascinating. Um, but I guess kind of like segueing off that question is a really interesting.

It leaves us with a really interesting question of like, how can churches and faith communities, or just like the everyday Christian or religious person of whatever kind, um, use d and d or some of the principles from d and d. And it's been very clear, Harry, and I know you're very clear on this, like, d and d is a game.

We don't wanna make it into something that's. With what is intended to be, but we can still use it for some of these, um, like explorations or within faith communities or community building, I guess. Um, and yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, both of you. 

Harry: Yeah. Um, I really hold quite. Um, tightly to this idea that at the core of d and d is an, an experience of having fun playing a game with your mates.

It does not need to always be this deeply introspective, oh, what does it mean to be Harry? What does it mean to be Paula? It's great that those moments happen, but in both mine and. Paul as examples. We were kind of surprised with how organically those moments came about. And while I was, when I was kind of using the character I was playing to explore my own identity.

Sure. I like lent into, uh, well what if I played a more confident version of myself, but all of the kind of learning I gr I gained from that. That happened almost by accident. Um, and really what facilitated it. It's happening several steps before that. It's the fact that I'm surrounded by people that care about me.

It's the fact that I am spending time with them and they want to spend time with me. It's the fact that we are doing this together. We are collaborating to build that story. It's coming out of a place of love for each other. And I think that there is a, um, again, there is something maybe that. That's quite difficult to do nowadays.

I dunno. Um, there's, maybe there is more to be said there. Um, I wouldn't be able to say anything like concrete. Um, but I do wonder if this is where the opportunity really lies for d and d. It is, it is something that is fundamentally about having fun. It's not about producing a product. It's not about showing off, it's not about academic success.

Um, it is just about having fun. And I think that's great. 

Paula: I absolutely agree, and I think there's something really quite important about keeping gameplay for the sake of just having fun and playing a game. Um, it is quite refreshing actually, like, especially when everything else in the world seems so target driven, product driven, like you've kind of got to be productive.

You've got to do this carving out time to just sit and tell a story just for fun. It kind of feels rebellious sometimes. Like in a world it's all deadlines and, um, yeah, like it's really nice being able to kind of preserve something that, something that was really important to me as a child as well. Like that element of play, being able to kind of see that that's still important in adulthood.

Like being able to just have fun with your friends without, yeah, you don't really need anything else, just. Good people. 

Zoe: Yeah. No, I really love that. It just is really lovely and yeah, that like fun for the sake of having fun and just spending time with friends.

I guess like maybe like social media has destroyed my attention span to the point that I need, like I could have carved out time for that. And there is, yeah, something really. Important about that. Um, yeah. Just as we close, I guess like a really quick last question. Do you have any next steps for your work on d and d?

Harry, I know you're the leading scholar in Scotland for d and d and Paula, you and I are close second, so, uh, yeah. Do you have anywhere you wanna go with your research or are you kind of just happy with where it is? 

Harry: Uh, I'm glad that you have recognized, uh, my proper title, Zoe. Thank you. Um, I am very much kind of looking at where this is gonna go.

Um, in terms of future work. Um, I'm tentative to say anything concrete because it's all still, the details are up in the air. Um, but I am looking at, um. More projects that lean into this idea, um, in particular around youth work as well. That's something that I'm quite passionate about. Um, I've done a little bit before in terms of running d and d, um, for young people just a little bit.

Um, and something I'm kind of interested in doing is asking, all right, so what happens if I. Set up a group, uh, that is long term what happens if I take what I have basically learned running games and playing games myself, and go, okay, this isn't gonna be like a one-off d and d club where we just run for fun.

But actually I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and teach these young people. How to write their own story through d and d. Um, and what can be kind of learned from that? Where is the real benefit, uh, particularly for young people? Um, you know, that we've seen d and d has become incredibly popular over the last 10 years, kinda more so than it ever has been.

Um, it's in the cultural zeitgeist. Um, so why don't we lean into that and do good youth work with it? I think that's a, a really interesting idea. Yeah. 

Paula: I think, yeah, we've had some, definitely had some interesting conversations about what we might kind of do next. Um, like Harry, you kind of hesitate to say anything like concrete.

But yeah, I would love to keep working on sort of d and d related topics in the future. Um, yeah, 

Zoe: well, I'm sure we're all excited to see those coming, whether it's games or books or articles. Yeah, it's a really important thing to discuss and a really fun thing. To talk about. Um, thank you both so much for coming on.

This has been really enjoyable. Um, for our listeners, Harry and Ian, I think way, way back did an episode looking more at the Imago day and um, autism and. Also a webinar now. It was so long ago. I'm getting confused at which one we, which. But we'll put the webinar and the podcast episode and the show notes.

And then yeah, if you wanna hear more, you can, I'll link. Um. Yeah, I'll link some work by Harry and Paula as well in the show notes, and you can keep an eye on our social medias for when their book chapter is officially released. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions or just wanna say hi, you can email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or you can contact us on social media at Autism Theology.

Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just wanna say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.