WEBVTT 00:00:03.366 --> 00:00:20.417 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke and this is Pastor Cameron. So welcome to the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut, honest conversations about Bible theology, life, 00:00:20.624 --> 00:00:23.617 church, ministry, anything we feel like talking about. 00:00:23.617 --> 00:00:39.510 Anything that strokes the passion or like that, you know, stokes the fire of our conversation and our, kind of our mutual, the things that we mutually like and agree with or are involved with. 00:00:39.618 --> 00:00:50.655 Yeah, or feel like just having an interesting conversation. Yeah. I'm looking, actually looking forward to, and I'm not sure what topic it will have, and it will probably be something that we don't expect where we're going to disagree. 00:00:51.636 --> 00:00:58.496 Disagree. I'm sure we, if we dig hard enough and fast enough, we could find something. Oh, I'm sure. 00:00:58.857 --> 00:01:10.217 I'm sure. Maybe not, probably not on the big things, but on the smaller things. So one of the things that we were thinking about talking about today is, you know, COVID. 00:01:13.157 --> 00:01:23.337 Everything that happened in, or began to happen in 2020, or like this March will be like three years removed from the date that at least Conduit said, 00:01:23.337 --> 00:01:28.337 hey, we're gonna pause in-person services for a while. 00:01:28.377 --> 00:01:32.597 2020 both feels far away and not far away at the same time. 00:01:32.777 --> 00:01:43.537 Yeah, I was reading a book the other day that was written, published, distributed, and got into my hands all post-COVID. 00:01:43.537 --> 00:01:56.177 And I was like, it doesn't seem like someone would have the ability to write a book, publish a book, sell and distribute a book, and get it into Cameron Leinhardt's hands in that amount of time. 00:01:56.177 --> 00:02:10.055 But it has been, say three years, and a lot has changed in the world, or a lot had an opportunity to change through COVID, and those changes were not absent from the church. 00:02:10.537 --> 00:02:22.280 They were, they're prevalent in our church as well, in all churches. And one of the ways, one of the things, or I think the primary thing, 00:02:22.415 --> 00:02:29.725 that it really changed, that COVID really changed the landscape of in churches is the, 00:02:30.040 --> 00:02:39.517 prevalence of or what seems like the necessity now to have. 00:02:40.942 --> 00:02:59.631 Everything and anything that you can streamed online, offered online so that the person who cannot be present in either the building or in the small group or at the Bible study or on a Sunday 00:02:59.631 --> 00:03:09.751 morning or whatever still has an opportunity to participate. Stated in that kind of way, 00:03:09.751 --> 00:03:17.871 it feels like, oh my gosh, what an opportunity to involve people, involve more people. 00:03:17.995 --> 00:03:30.991 Well, I don't know if I remember growing up in our church and when we had a cassette ministry, do you remember those? 00:03:30.991 --> 00:03:47.951 I do. You know, like they record the sermon on a cassette and then they duplicate a number of those cassettes and then they would hand them out to people. That grew into, okay, well, if you don't have a cassette ministry, you're not reaching your full potential, or don't have a CD ministry, or. 00:03:48.511 --> 00:04:01.791 You don't have a podcast, right? That kind of became at least the standard. Every church, pretty much everywhere, at least had to have an audio podcast of their sermon, put it up sometime 00:04:01.791 --> 00:04:13.951 during the week on somewhere where they could listen to it. And then becoming more and more was like the standard was an audio podcast and a video recording were kind of the standards. 00:04:13.951 --> 00:04:30.431 Not every church had embraced video, but COVID like, it like hit fast forward on the media trend in the church. And so now not only do we need to be recording and redistributing our sermons and 00:04:30.431 --> 00:04:34.110 maybe services in video and audio format. 00:04:34.351 --> 00:04:35.711 We need to be live. 00:04:36.621 --> 00:04:52.871 Streaming out into the world concurrently, the service as it happens. Yeah. I remember, I think my first recollection of all of that was, I don't know what it would have been, what year it would have been for you, but I was a freshman or sophomore in college, 00:04:53.716 --> 00:05:04.231 and the church that I was attending in Rochester did what I thought was an extraordinarily cutting edge thing, where it was like you could order the sermon on CD. 00:05:04.231 --> 00:05:20.271 And then like I see you would order it the Sunday that it was preached, like leaving church, oh, that was a really good sermon. I want that. And then so you go to the window and you would order it and then next Sunday when you came back, it'd be ready for you and so you could take it. 00:05:20.271 --> 00:05:37.711 And I thought that was just like, that was incredible. Like, oh my gosh, that we get to do this. And then I still have upstairs in my office, I have in the lower drawer of my 00:05:37.711 --> 00:05:46.479 filing cabinet, I have the VHS tapes of the first sermons that I preached as pastor. 00:05:47.604 --> 00:05:57.591 Yeah. I've got, I mean, this will date the difference between when you and I were going to preaching classes. I have a thumb drive with the recordings of when I was preaching. 00:05:57.591 --> 00:06:10.431 Yeah. So like my very first Sunday as a pastor, I have a VHS tape recording of it. I got no way to play it. I don't own a VCR. I don't know anyone that does own a VCR. But someday, 00:06:10.431 --> 00:06:16.751 maybe we'll get it down to some sort of digital copy. And I would actually, I don't know. 00:06:16.751 --> 00:06:23.604 That sermon can probably just live in the catacombs of a VHS because there's probably not much good that's in it. Yeah. 00:06:23.721 --> 00:06:33.951 But yeah, it was, well, and you know, growing, even growing up, like church on TV is not necessarily a new thing. 00:06:34.254 --> 00:06:38.551 No. It's not. It's a pretty old thing, actually. 00:06:38.917 --> 00:06:47.208 But it existed in a really small or for a really small subset. Yeah. 00:06:47.622 --> 00:06:54.041 Churches and personalities and people. Well, because the cost of entry was so expensive. So high. 00:06:54.599 --> 00:07:06.491 Right. But what we're doing right here with this podcast, these microphones, the cameras that we're using, the way we're recording and distributing it was a relatively low barrier of entry. 00:07:06.626 --> 00:07:13.951 And it's not that complicated. Well, and this is. 00:07:15.574 --> 00:07:31.436 This is probably 10 times as complicated as what it actually has to be for churches all over the world right now to get their services at least out. 00:07:31.604 --> 00:07:41.604 You need a smartphone and an internet connection, which presumably every smartphone has, and then you just need a platform. 00:07:41.604 --> 00:07:57.364 Everyone has Facebook and that's a primary way that most people are connecting that message out there. And so it has taken maybe let's say in the span of the last, I think generously, 00:07:57.364 --> 00:08:12.684 like 40 to 50 years, what has been something that has been reserved primarily for the biggest churches with the most resources and the most charismatic personalities to get their messages 00:08:12.684 --> 00:08:27.592 out there, get their services out there and it's taken it down all the way to the smallest of little country churches who maybe typically wouldn't have a wide geographical impact with. 00:08:28.444 --> 00:08:34.929 Their message and it's given them the opportunity to give people literally across the world access to what they're saying. 00:08:35.084 --> 00:08:48.955 Yeah. Well, like I remember I was pastoring as associate pastor in a church plant in Chicago prior and during 2020. And we, I've always been like a gadgety guy. 00:08:49.244 --> 00:09:02.624 I've always been the like tech, I love sound. So you know, I was making sure we had video recordings and audio recordings of like our service and like our sermons. I did do... 00:09:04.052 --> 00:09:28.628 The we did live streaming for a bit and we were just running it off of like my little I think it was my iPhone five and like just strapping it to this pole with a GoPro mount and hitting like go live and that's what we were doing. And I think we ultimately we stopped doing it because you know so few people were tuning in live. 00:09:29.087 --> 00:09:43.148 And it was, but even with that simplicity, it was such a technical headache that we were just like, like, is this really worth it? Like, we get the sermon out within so many hours of the, you know, 00:09:43.274 --> 00:09:56.761 like, you know, so we kind of, we opted not to, but then, you know, maybe a year passes after we stopped live streaming and that became the only way in which we could do ministry in Chicago was 00:09:56.761 --> 00:10:10.241 was me and senior pastor sitting side by side, kind of like this, staring into iPhones and doing a whole service, like a little acoustic guitar. 00:10:10.241 --> 00:10:18.626 One, it was amazing how much we were able to do given the constraints of not being able to meet together. 00:10:18.861 --> 00:10:24.199 But then it was also incredibly sad. 00:10:24.441 --> 00:10:34.441 I hated that season. Like, it was lonely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I thought that, like, in terms of that season for me. 00:10:36.761 --> 00:10:51.601 And I want to say that we, I don't think we live streamed only for very long. Not for, certainly not as long as many places did. 00:10:52.441 --> 00:10:52.997 Yeah. 00:10:54.081 --> 00:11:03.721 I think we started live streaming or started going, we, we suspended in-person services, I think in the middle of March of 2020. 00:11:04.481 --> 00:11:09.327 And then I want to say it was Father's Day. 00:11:10.801 --> 00:11:23.704 Okay. So June, beginning of June, so three ish months that we put a big tent in the front yard and then we literally worshiped underneath that tent for the next. 00:11:25.351 --> 00:11:34.884 Four months. Yeah. So we were, we, we, but then we still live streamed out there too. Yeah. 00:11:35.041 --> 00:11:54.059 Right. But I remember, I actually want to look like, and maybe this is a question that we come back to later, but is, you know, when you said like, when you first started live streaming pre-COVID, it, you got to the point where it was like, viewership was so low. 00:11:54.365 --> 00:11:59.561 Yeah. determined like this isn't worth it. I think we were getting maybe one person. 00:11:59.731 --> 00:12:11.801 Right. Um, the, and that for me is an interesting, like philosophical marker is like at what point, at what point does it become worth it? 00:12:13.855 --> 00:12:19.481 Yeah. At what point does it become worth it? Um, and so, you know, 00:12:19.653 --> 00:12:28.101 maybe there's a more appropriate time to come back to that question cause we're Now we're digging into really kind of where the like, at least the heart of the conversation 00:12:28.101 --> 00:12:42.581 is for me is, you know, we're, I think we're, we're, we're typically talking about live streaming and all of church being online, everything that we can, Bible studies, you 00:12:42.581 --> 00:12:49.045 know, whatever we get announcements and we get that question at any time we do any event, 00:12:49.421 --> 00:12:58.687 Will it be a live stream? Will it be recorded? Will I be able to access it without being here? 00:12:58.861 --> 00:13:17.366 Yeah, without being here. We're typically having the conversation within the parenthesis of this is such a great thing. One of the guys that you and I know that you and I, I I don't know like how. 00:13:18.735 --> 00:13:23.985 How hook line and sinker you take all the things that Craig Rochelle says or does, you know. 00:13:26.017 --> 00:13:38.085 And I mean, for those who are listening or watching who might not know who Greg Craig Rochelle is, he's a, you know, probably one of the most influential Christian pastors in the United States, maybe the world. 00:13:38.162 --> 00:13:47.542 Yeah, I don't think he, I think he leads one of the most influential churches. Churches, yeah. I don't think he's like the best known preacher. I think that falls to a couple other people. 00:13:48.208 --> 00:13:54.605 But as far as what his church does. Well, and probably his overall leadership influence. 00:13:54.605 --> 00:14:02.725 Not necessarily his preaching influence, but his leadership influence is probably second to none. Yeah, that's where he is significant. 00:14:02.725 --> 00:14:12.725 So he is someone that you pay attention to in the church world because often where they go, the world goes, or at least the church world goes. 00:14:12.725 --> 00:14:27.305 And just for context, his church is the church created the Bible app. The U version Bible app that you probably have on your phone is what his church made and made publicly free for everyone. 00:14:27.485 --> 00:14:42.765 And you and I, I listen to his podcast every month. I listen to all his interviews. I read pretty much all of his books. And while it's impossible to really know him truly as a person, 00:14:42.765 --> 00:14:54.725 All signs point to genuine, caring, faithful man of God, pastor of the largest church in America. 00:14:55.455 --> 00:15:07.245 Yeah. So, but he is a big proponent of like what one of his catchphrases is, if you want to reach people that no one is reaching, you have to do things that no one is doing. 00:15:07.446 --> 00:15:07.293 Yes. 00:15:07.645 --> 00:15:27.005 So, and so like his church, Life Church, based out of Tulsa, Oklahoma is, you know, they have, I don't want to say they've pioneered, but they're certainly on like the front leading edge of doing things like virtual reality church. You know, so like if you have an Oculus, 00:15:27.005 --> 00:15:29.165 you know. Right, the church in the metaverse. 00:15:29.165 --> 00:15:39.287 Church and the Metaverse. And about how he feels like it's important for Life.Church to have a... 00:15:40.106 --> 00:15:50.036 Influence there or a presence there or whatever. I'll go on record to say, I'm only 40 years old. 00:15:53.448 --> 00:16:05.316 But I'm a little bit of an old soul in terms when it comes to technology and gadgets and stuff like that. I have the gadgety things that I like, but they're not generally technological. 00:16:06.015 --> 00:16:23.696 And so there's a little bit of stuff like VR church and stuff like that I just don't understand and I don't get. And maybe that's on me. I'm asking it to do things without really understanding what it actually is. But anyway, so this is something that I have, 00:16:23.696 --> 00:16:36.576 I think, a little bit of a fundamental disagreement with Craig about because he, I think would say, you know, like church is in as many ways in as many places in as many environments as many. 00:16:37.658 --> 00:16:42.416 Like Modalities as possible like the more the better. 00:16:43.696 --> 00:16:55.266 And while on the surface I like of course wouldn't disagree with that like yeah We want to reach the people that are in that are literally in the metaverse in the metaverse hiding away hiding away there. I. 00:16:56.698 --> 00:17:18.816 Think it leaves some things out I think it leaves some considerations out that the whole question that begs the question of like is the iteration of everything online in church, every service, every Bible study, 00:17:18.816 --> 00:17:25.536 small groups, all those things, is it a good thing? 00:17:25.536 --> 00:17:33.956 Cart Blanche. Cart Blanche. Or is it sometimes good and sometimes bad or is it neutral? 00:17:34.993 --> 00:17:51.203 And I have some thoughts on that, but I'm a little curious as to what you would say about that being a little bit different personality for me in terms of the gadget-y, 00:17:51.203 --> 00:17:53.643 techno-world type of thing. 00:17:53.643 --> 00:18:03.215 Right. Because I've got an Oculus. I don't spend much time in the metaverse, But I've always been kind of like, let's see what we can do. 00:18:03.287 --> 00:18:14.283 And I, and even just my church background, I come from a very missionally minded church background, you know, like that's just like reach the people, right? 00:18:14.283 --> 00:18:25.283 I think like for me, I was kind of having this conversation pre-COVID through, like the church has been wrestling with this question, 00:18:25.283 --> 00:18:33.553 And I think for a good decade or more, um, ever since the advent of, uh, screen preachers. 00:18:34.403 --> 00:18:36.731 The, the advent of having multi-sites, right. 00:18:36.875 --> 00:18:44.723 Multi-site. And, uh, by, by that, I don't mean just like, you know, we talked about big churches that have multiple places where they meet. 00:18:45.243 --> 00:18:49.541 Um, and specifically there's a whole bunch of different ways that that can be done. 00:18:50.163 --> 00:19:02.643 Uh, but specifically the way in which there's multiple places where one church meets and only one of those places has a physical in-flesh preacher. The rest of the places have 00:19:02.643 --> 00:19:12.243 a maybe a pastor on staff who does like announcements, but then everybody looks up to a big projector screen and they're either watching- They tune in. 00:19:12.243 --> 00:19:27.803 They tune in to the main campus and they're watching either live streamed or slightly delayed or an hour off or whatever, the sermon that the main primary, usually well-known pastor was delivering. 00:19:27.803 --> 00:19:39.203 And that has become a fairly common model. I don't know if it's sticking around, but it's been around for a while. And. 00:19:40.341 --> 00:20:07.447 What is it i feel like has kind of that discussion around that modality of church kind of gone to the background because of just the prevalence of streaming but the question is like is that. Different does it does it matter whether or not you are at like the main campus or your fear of satellite campus where you're watching the screen preacher and i. 00:20:07.951 --> 00:20:18.331 Like, I have like a couple reflections on that. And I think that points to where I kind of go with streaming. 00:20:18.331 --> 00:20:31.911 And that's the first is that if you go to any of those churches, all of those churches don't have a live in-person preacher, but they almost always have live in-person bands. 00:20:31.911 --> 00:20:39.631 And if you were to like talk to someone and you were like, they were like, oh, like it It doesn't make a difference that like, you know, that the preaching streamed. 00:20:40.551 --> 00:20:55.151 And I go, okay, would it bug you if you went to the church and you had the watch on the screen, the band play and most people pre COVID would say, Oh, yeah, I don't want, I don't want that. 00:20:55.351 --> 00:20:59.911 Like that's, I want to actually be there with the worship, the emotion, feel the emotion. 00:21:00.254 --> 00:21:02.883 I want to, you know, like I want to, I want to, you know, I'm like, well, we can turn it up. 00:21:03.351 --> 00:21:11.714 They're like, they're like, no, no, no, no. Like I want to be in the room with the worst, like there's like, that would be a pretty in common response for most people. 00:21:11.911 --> 00:21:19.645 And so what I would normally say if someone responded that way, so what you're telling me is, is that presence does matter. 00:21:19.831 --> 00:21:30.751 And that doesn't mean that screen preaching is wrong, but it does, for me at least, point or indicate that there is something significant to being present. 00:21:30.751 --> 00:21:37.631 Yeah, I think it also says something about the way that we view the different aspects of a worship service. 00:21:38.676 --> 00:21:47.511 That the worship is something that we want to participate in with people. The preaching is something that we want to receive as a piece of content. 00:21:47.511 --> 00:22:00.351 We've commodified preaching. If anyone like you, maybe you, but mostly myself, I at one point was consuming podcasts of sermons like crazy. 00:22:00.758 --> 00:22:12.776 And outside of the context of churches I've never attended to, pastors I've never met, people who never know me, and I'm listening to their podcasts. There's some sermons I don't miss from preachers. it doesn't matter. 00:22:13.739 --> 00:22:22.490 I never miss any Stanley sermon. I listen to every single one of his sermons. I just love any Stanley. That cracks me up. 00:22:24.170 --> 00:22:29.809 So like, yeah, but we've been doing that for a long time. And so we've kind of acclimated to that. 00:22:30.010 --> 00:22:42.133 And so maybe a screen preacher or maybe streaming online the sermon, like that doesn't feel so strange because we already kind of have been doing that with cassettes, CDs, podcasts. 00:22:44.750 --> 00:22:53.030 And I even, I think the same response is kind of held true for people who have watched Church at Home on YouTube, 00:22:53.910 --> 00:23:02.928 on Facebook through COVID this current season, is most of them say like, yeah, like all the sermons fine, but like the thing I miss the most is like the worship. 00:23:04.242 --> 00:23:11.630 Right, which like we could go on a whole tangent there because I don't love referring to musical worship as worship, but like. 00:23:13.190 --> 00:23:20.350 It's a term we got to use for familiar. Yeah, right. Right. Um, but like they miss the musical aspect. 00:23:20.350 --> 00:23:24.750 They miss singing corporately and being in the presence of that. 00:23:25.830 --> 00:23:34.697 Um, but they don't necessarily feel that quite as keenly with the sermons. I, I, I, I kind of think it's a little bit neutral, 00:23:34.886 --> 00:23:42.830 But I think it's a little bit of context, reason, intention, a little bit of calling, 00:23:43.456 --> 00:23:43.942 to. Really? 00:23:45.239 --> 00:23:56.437 Maybe. I think some people, I can look at a pastor and I can say, all right, the way that you're executing ministry is not the way I would execute ministry. 00:23:57.130 --> 00:24:08.761 And that's got to do with my personality. It's got to do with what I feel like I'm particularly called to do, the way I feel convicted about doing ministry. 00:24:09.110 --> 00:24:13.812 But particularly, it's like a secondary issue. 00:24:14.510 --> 00:24:29.638 It's not for me. But I could say like Craig Grichaud, like VR church is something I probably just, I don't like. and. 00:24:30.709 --> 00:24:36.079 But I would kind of just like say like, I don't know that. So I would kind of put it that way. 00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:46.355 See, here's my thing though. It's like I don't know and I don't know, I'd be willing to bet Craig if you're listening to this podcast, you know, send us a comment, let us know which one it is. 00:24:46.439 --> 00:24:54.340 I don't know that Craig would say that he feels personally called to engage in that type of pastoral ministry. 00:24:54.999 --> 00:25:05.656 I think that what he would say is that a foundational theology of the church would lead us to believe that that's an area that we have to be in. 00:25:05.809 --> 00:25:23.399 I think there's a distinction there because if we approach the issue with a, no, the church should be in all places, in all ways, in as many environments or modalities as it can, 00:25:23.399 --> 00:25:31.839 And it doesn't really, like personal calling then really doesn't function into the equation. 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:38.406 It should be a, then it becomes a question like, well, not Craig, why are you in VR? 00:25:38.959 --> 00:25:46.265 Why are you in the metaverse? The question gets reversed on us is like, well, why aren't you? 00:25:46.919 --> 00:25:56.879 You know, why aren't you? If it's about personal calling, I think that worries me a little bit because then we're 00:25:56.879 --> 00:26:09.119 talking about like, you know, much of ministry or at least that aspect of ministry is leveraged against the personality of the one at the helm. 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:24.858 And yeah, that could take the church in a very positive direction into areas of ministry that are really important and valuable, but it can certainly, we've all seen it do the opposite where a church is like a dog with a bone on a pet project that just is like, 00:26:25.371 --> 00:26:29.332 just reeks of dishonor to the Lord. 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.399 So I, you know, I... 00:26:34.463 --> 00:26:52.513 Yeah, I wonder about the question of whether or not it is calling or how it functions in terms of the nature of the Church. It's maybe a little bit of an unfair question to ask or an unfair question to come hard down on a singular answer because, 00:26:52.792 --> 00:27:01.902 I don't even think it's a fair question to ask. Well, if Jesus had access to Facebook and streaming equipment, would the Sermon on the Mount be live streamed? 00:27:01.956 --> 00:27:14.217 I think that's an interesting question. What he livestreams his teaching. I think it's fun to have conversation about conjecture around that. 00:27:14.873 --> 00:27:23.593 What would WWJD, what would Jesus do? But that's really all it is, is conjecture. 00:27:23.593 --> 00:27:34.553 We couldn't say with any form of authority that this is definitely what Jesus would do. That's like, you know, I don't know. 00:27:34.553 --> 00:27:49.393 You know, maybe to push a little bit, I had a friend, he was a communications guy and he was always telling me, he's like, Luke, medium is the message. 00:27:49.393 --> 00:28:03.233 So he was always just like, and he meant it kind of not in an embracing way, but in a Medium through which you transmit a message if is not appropriate will override and destroy the message, 00:28:03.568 --> 00:28:10.173 If you're communicating it through a so what you say, it's how you say it. Yeah a little bit. Yeah, and so like. 00:28:11.454 --> 00:28:12.498 There is like. 00:28:13.833 --> 00:28:18.753 Podcasts videos like watching on a screen like is a. 00:28:20.267 --> 00:28:25.953 Say pretty Like information transfer that way. 00:28:27.055 --> 00:28:37.164 It's pretty good. And like if we were to just say, if we were to kind of maybe take all the different aspects of a Sunday service and say. 00:28:39.568 --> 00:28:51.775 And say like kind of classify up kind of different parts of the service and say well the sermon is probably the most information heavy. Involves the mind and so is probably maybe just like. 00:28:52.720 --> 00:29:05.026 Again i'm looking at this i'm not asking any spiritual questions right now i'm asking like hyper practical questions the message itself is. Probably pretty format well suited. 00:29:05.647 --> 00:29:06.638 To that medium. 00:29:07.678 --> 00:29:19.638 The worship, not quite so well, because it's meant to be participatory, and it's hard for us all not to feel like we're kind of watching Blue's Clues or Dora the Explorer, the map, the map, right? 00:29:19.638 --> 00:29:28.819 When we're trying to like, that's my experience. I don't know, some people love worshiping along on television, that's fantastic. I have a really hard time with it. 00:29:28.958 --> 00:29:42.158 I feel like I'm participating with Blue's Clues. And so like for me, participating in musical worship over a screen is near impossible for me. 00:29:42.158 --> 00:29:48.498 Because the screen is primarily a receiving, it's not participatory. It's voyeuristic. 00:29:48.498 --> 00:30:05.218 Yeah, exactly. And so having asked no spiritual questions in that, just thinking like practicality about content and the way we want people to interact with it, the sermon does lend itself to the 00:30:05.218 --> 00:30:09.257 medium of streaming, recording and all of that. 00:30:09.478 --> 00:30:17.017 But that does bring back to a question of like, does physical presence matter enough? 00:30:17.938 --> 00:30:27.730 Like, I don't know, like is there, like I want to hear your thoughts. I've been doing a lot of the talking, but I want to hear your thoughts now. 00:30:27.898 --> 00:30:36.258 Like, is attending church online just as good as attending church in person? 00:30:36.966 --> 00:30:53.314 No. Okay. Like categorically no. And I would say like the reason that I would say no to that is because I think it is impossible, 00:30:53.584 --> 00:31:13.146 to overstate the importance of personal relationship with other believers in a person's journey of faith with Christ, Christian faith. 00:31:14.569 --> 00:31:24.659 To backtrack a little bit into piggybacking on what you said, there are always going to be certain mediums or aspects of, let's say, I'm just talking about Sunday worship, 00:31:25.515 --> 00:31:32.899 that are more suited or more appropriate for the medium of capture and send out. 00:31:33.627 --> 00:31:47.539 Because they do, as a standalone, they do function in a way that can be probably useful. But I think that says also a few things about, and I don't think you're not saying this. 00:31:47.751 --> 00:31:52.315 Yeah. No, I'm only revealing kind of half of my hand here. 00:31:52.579 --> 00:32:05.659 Sure. Right. That it maybe betrays a little bit of the way that in general we approach and view the worship service as a whole or the gathered community. 00:32:05.659 --> 00:32:26.699 But we've, I think, we've underplayed our hand in modern Christianity at the importance of the lived experience of doing the Christian faith, walking the Christian walk, living 00:32:26.699 --> 00:32:29.882 the Christian life alongside others. 00:32:30.139 --> 00:32:33.438 We've been slowly. 00:32:34.923 --> 00:32:50.853 Over a long period of time, but it seems like in the past decade or so, like we've supercharged the reality of more and more personal isolation from one another that has created. 00:32:52.801 --> 00:33:10.093 A break in actual like person to person relationship, right? That, I mean, we look no no further than like the comment section on any social media post or any YouTube article or any YouTube video or news article or whatever. Right. 00:33:10.428 --> 00:33:19.241 And even myself feel more free to say things that are out of character for me on that, 00:33:20.177 --> 00:33:27.451 in that medium than I would if something that I'm commenting on you right now, right? Right. 00:33:27.523 --> 00:33:42.173 Or anyone else that's in like actual personal physical proximity and relationship with. And so the growing chasm of actual physical presence and actual physical relationship. 00:33:43.682 --> 00:34:03.933 Takes I think sometimes our character to a place of not seeing other people as actual people and just makes them things out there. I think if I were to distill everything maybe. 00:34:03.933 --> 00:34:12.633 Down into one primary thought as it pertains to is the streaming revolution of everything a good, 00:34:12.633 --> 00:34:31.613 bad or neutral thing, I think that there are aspects of it that are good. What I would say that there needs to be a heavy heavy very very serious warning for the church to not cheapen. 00:34:31.142 --> 00:35:06.992 Actual, physical, human, eye to eye, face to face, hand to hand, all the voices in one room, community with one another. Right? And I think we could do some work even theologically to trace back the meaning and the usage of both the Greek and Hebrew words that they used to communicate like a community of faith or a called out people. 00:35:06.992 --> 00:35:30.732 Imagined that they would live in isolation and see that as a suitable substitute for the actual gathered community where we do sing in one voice and we do have one faith. 00:35:30.732 --> 00:35:42.492 Baptism, one savior and God and father over us all. And so, you know, there, I mean, candidly. 00:35:43.692 --> 00:35:56.412 There have been times where I've considered as pastor, as a pastor here at Conduit at least, of saying, you know, like I would, not because it's practically difficult. 00:35:57.807 --> 00:36:05.882 Because we can make it happen, but from a philosophical or theological standpoint, like saying, Thanks for watching. 00:36:07.367 --> 00:36:23.718 Are we doing a disservice to the nature of and to the nature of actual Christian community by saying, oh, if you can't be with us, just watch here. It's like, that's the same thing. 00:36:24.118 --> 00:36:25.658 It's not the same thing. Yeah. 00:36:26.677 --> 00:36:42.738 And there are, I mean, we had this conversation, we've had this conversation before in regards to like watching our live streams and seeing who comments and seeing, you know, You know, hearing people say at some point, you know, at the coffee shop, oh, I watched you guys online this week. 00:36:43.008 --> 00:36:47.527 And we're like, we had no idea. We had no idea that this person was watching. 00:36:47.858 --> 00:37:04.738 No, you know, and it leaves me saying, it leaves me saying like being like almost like hyperventilating in my soul about like, like I feel the weight of, I feel the weight of 00:37:04.738 --> 00:37:13.174 responsibility for pastoral leadership in their lives without ever knowing who they are, without never looking them in the eye. 00:37:13.658 --> 00:37:24.298 I feel like they're just looking through a peephole in the door of actual authentic Christian community. 00:37:24.298 --> 00:37:28.928 I know others who live up here in Jamestown will say, hey, what church do you go to? 00:37:29.576 --> 00:37:32.907 They're like, oh, I watch a church down in Florida every Sunday. 00:37:34.987 --> 00:37:43.098 That's becoming more and more like my pastor is in Florida like No, your TV show is hosted in Florida. Yeah, but where's your community? 00:37:44.097 --> 00:37:55.738 Right. Well if we were to put this like if we were to rewind five years and we were to ask somebody What's your church and they would say oh such-and-such pastor on television at 11 o'clock at night. Mm-hmm. 00:37:57.141 --> 00:38:03.578 Right. Like anybody of any like real theological understanding of what the church is would say, 00:38:04.538 --> 00:38:12.138 no, it's not. Right. Right. That's not your church, right? Right. Right. Church is not a building. 00:38:12.138 --> 00:38:15.947 Church is not a live stream. Church is not a channel you subscribe to. 00:38:16.046 --> 00:38:26.258 Church is a community made up of people that you know. That you know. That know you. That gather together worship Jesus and practice the sacraments. 00:38:26.372 --> 00:38:28.172 Yeah. Like go out on mission. 00:38:28.698 --> 00:38:33.546 Go out on mission. That is Ecclesiology 101. 101. Right. 00:38:34.446 --> 00:38:42.962 The like now we're a little bit more accepting of maybe an answer. We would not have swallowed Five years ago, right? 00:38:43.584 --> 00:38:55.217 Right There is like I just don't want it to be I just don't want it to be a wolf in sheep's clothing Yeah, you know, well, so there was something interesting that happened right when kovat struck. So. 00:38:56.457 --> 00:39:04.550 I've done counseling. I've done counseling for a lot of years and like personal counseling for me. I'm not counseling people I'm in coming in receiving counseling. 00:39:04.737 --> 00:39:09.510 And during COVID, right, could no longer meet in person with my counselor at the time. 00:39:09.737 --> 00:39:17.081 And we switched to doing online counseling. Telehealth has become like a massive thing, right? 00:39:17.198 --> 00:39:17.828 Because of COVID. 00:39:19.337 --> 00:39:27.362 But I remember switching from doing in-person counseling with my counselor and switching to doing, I think we were doing Zoom at the time. 00:39:28.577 --> 00:39:44.317 Everybody was on Zoom. I received a waiver from the counseling center and from my counselor I had to sign. Part of that waiver included that I acknowledged that the therapeutic benefit of being counseled 00:39:44.317 --> 00:39:52.937 online was not as significant or was going to be to a lesser degree than when I was meeting with my counselor in person. 00:39:52.937 --> 00:40:01.757 I'm assuming that that's tied to some study. I'm not a counselor, but assuming that that statement is tied to a study that physical 00:40:01.757 --> 00:40:15.617 actual presence with a counselor has been shown to provide better care, better therapeutic results than over a screen. 00:40:15.617 --> 00:40:24.897 I had to sign a legal thing acknowledging that that was a fact and that I knew I was going to get a subpar counseling. 00:40:24.897 --> 00:40:29.937 Not because my counselor was changing or I was changing, what we were talking about was changing. 00:40:29.937 --> 00:40:45.645 Nothing changed except for the fact that we weren't in the room together anymore. And obviously for them to have that document ready and for you to sign, it's been a well-established principle that the physical presence of another human being in the room with you is a therapeutic, 00:40:45.726 --> 00:40:49.912 advantage over staring at a computer screen. 00:40:50.157 --> 00:41:01.255 So if it matters in counseling, by golly, it ought to matter in how we worship. I would think so. It's kind of at least my argument there. 00:41:01.489 --> 00:41:11.950 I, you know, so I'll reveal my whole position. I think that streaming, recording, all of that is best. 00:41:13.138 --> 00:41:26.269 In is great as a substitution when we can't have the actual thing. So if we have, if, if I'm, if we have someone who's quarantining, we have someone who's maybe a shut in. 00:41:27.686 --> 00:41:38.029 Someone who's unable to be physically present, they're sick, they're sick, they're traveling, they're sick, they're traveling, right? Live streaming the service is the best thing you can 00:41:38.029 --> 00:41:51.389 have. Agreed. I get it. Like, I would still maybe like if you're traveling, my preference would be for you to just participate in another church that you have, if you can while you're traveling. 00:41:52.189 --> 00:42:08.394 I think there's benefit to that. I think, you know, we get to see with different eyes, different how different congregations. I think that's beneficial. But, but live streaming, like that's That's the best thing that you can get apart from actually being physically present for, 00:42:08.691 --> 00:42:09.259 church. 00:42:09.409 --> 00:42:21.655 And then there's that. I see that as an appropriate, okay usage of it. I see also it functioning as a front door to a lot of people. 00:42:21.949 --> 00:42:33.105 Prior to COVID, I know that like the, I think the statistic was somewhere like people would watch three to five sermons of a church before they would come and step foot in for the first, 00:42:33.322 --> 00:42:37.156 physical in-present person visit they would come. 00:42:37.349 --> 00:42:46.987 That was like if you were going to go looking for a church, looking for a place to come, you're exploring faith. Before you ever came to a church, you were listening to a couple of sermons. 00:42:47.189 --> 00:42:54.567 You were just trying to get all the information you could out of the website, trying to build up a lot of confidence and then come in. 00:42:55.269 --> 00:43:06.849 And so now live streams, service recordings, all of that functions as a front door, as it were, a bit of an entryway of saying, okay, well before I like... 00:43:07.791 --> 00:43:20.521 You know, get up early, get myself put together. Like, why don't I just see what this church is about and see if there's like, okay, well, like, cause you know, you can go to a gazillion different 00:43:20.521 --> 00:43:35.861 church websites. They all have the same thing on the, I believe statement. They all have the same mission statements. Like it's all the same. So like when you're actually genuinely looking for a new new church. You can see it. Like what are the people where, what's the culture, 00:43:35.861 --> 00:43:37.211 the demeanor there in the room? Yeah. 00:43:37.661 --> 00:43:46.690 And so like, and that's what I did when I was, when I was job hunting or when I've been, when I've moved and I've needed to find my own personal church, like I, 00:43:47.381 --> 00:43:58.101 I went through their websites, went through their social media and I tried to find as much as I could about the church before I would like take a whole Sunday to go. 00:43:58.101 --> 00:44:12.175 Because if you visit four different churches and trying to find a church that you're going to make a home, that's a whole month of like, because it's not like you can go to like five churches in a single Sunday, 00:44:12.461 --> 00:44:15.101 physically. 00:44:15.101 --> 00:44:23.959 So I see all of that as like somewhat, I can see that as a positive value added. 00:44:24.094 --> 00:44:32.512 But the area in which I become vastly uncomfortable is the perpetual, I have the opportunity to be at church. 00:44:34.261 --> 00:44:37.670 They live five minutes away, but they're just sitting on the couch. Yes. 00:44:38.120 --> 00:44:45.741 Yeah. And, or they live 20 hours away and there's a church down the street. 00:44:45.741 --> 00:44:56.021 I, you know, I would, and I've talked with people who were over in countries where faithful churches are hard to find. 00:44:56.021 --> 00:45:15.821 And my recommendation to someone in that situation is find the best church you can find and supplement maybe with another church, but don't make an online church your home if you can't. I think 00:45:15.821 --> 00:45:29.741 being with people, physically taking communion, which is its own whole topic of like, we the Christian world in which we live in and the type of churches that you and I come from, 00:45:29.741 --> 00:45:42.741 like preaching is the significant thing that happens on Sunday. But the large mass majority of history, communion, was the single most important thing that happened on the Sunday. 00:45:42.741 --> 00:45:52.056 It was the proclamation of the gospel. That the Eucharistic liturgy was and is the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ to people. 00:45:52.290 --> 00:46:04.524 And you have to be physically present. You have to be physically present. I want to be, like, and I think it should, you know, I want to work extra hard to be clear here that this is not a treatise against. 00:46:06.324 --> 00:46:14.054 Online things. No, we're not. In as much as it is like, it's kind of defaulting to that. 00:46:15.056 --> 00:46:25.854 Because what I'm actually trying to say is my main point is not that like technology bad, you know, right. 00:46:26.414 --> 00:46:28.569 What I'm saying is that there is. 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:52.974 If you are a person. who earnestly and genuinely desires to follow Jesus closely, to grow in your faith, that there is no substitute for the physical presence of the community of faith. 00:46:53.174 --> 00:47:13.614 There is no substitute for relationships are the currency for change. They are the place where change happens. 00:47:13.614 --> 00:47:28.596 And there's just no substitute for that. And so as a person or as a pastor who, like with all of my being and with all of my life and with all of my energy and gifts and all of that, all of my calling wants to see people, 00:47:29.523 --> 00:47:43.774 genuinely transformed to the image and likeness of Jesus Christ, to live like Jesus, to love like Jesus, to serve like Jesus, it leads me to a place of saying, yes, online everything has its benefits. 00:47:43.774 --> 00:47:50.774 There is no substitute for participating in a community of faith. 00:47:51.813 --> 00:48:07.603 It becomes like the church becomes a laboratory for how to live like Jesus lived, how to love like Jesus loved, how to serve like Jesus served. 00:48:07.792 --> 00:48:11.774 Served. It's impossible to know how to forgive. 00:48:13.049 --> 00:48:24.579 If you're never around people who could hurt you. People who need to be forgiven. Right. It's impossible to know how to humble yourself in service before the Lord. 00:48:28.722 --> 00:48:42.504 Without surrounding yourself with people who you may consider to be lesser than you, right? Or that you have an opportunity to serve. It's impossible to know how to live like Jesus, 00:48:42.721 --> 00:48:57.459 in isolation because Jesus lived in relationship. He lived in relationship with people who betrayed him, who loved him, who caused problems for him, who served him, whom he served. And so. 00:49:00.635 --> 00:49:15.480 If we are going to pursue life, love and service like Jesus did, then we need to be in relationship with others and like, yeah, the church is messy. 00:49:17.059 --> 00:49:29.731 Yeah? Yeah, the church is not, well, you know, because that's one of the questions like I was gonna pose to you is like, what would you, as you know, like as a pastor, what would you say to someone who said, you know, like. 00:49:30.899 --> 00:49:35.492 No, I think this is good enough for me to just sit home and watch. 00:49:35.573 --> 00:49:40.965 Like, I suppose this is like getting a little bit into maybe another topic about like church hurt, 00:49:41.299 --> 00:49:52.911 And like the reasons, the reasons why someone would choose to stay home rather than to be, 00:49:53.579 --> 00:49:58.781 in relationship or community with others, what would you say maybe to a person? 00:49:59.024 --> 00:50:10.139 That's probably a pretty long answer. Yeah, I mean, briefly I would just say like, if I was talking to an actual flesh human being, right, I'd have a pastoral response. 00:50:10.139 --> 00:50:18.685 I would say, honestly, what I would want to do is I'd want to just tell me your story. 00:50:19.459 --> 00:50:26.459 And in telling their story, I would want to hear the hurt, I want to receive it, I want to hold it, I want to do all of those things. 00:50:26.643 --> 00:50:31.270 I want to even apologize. I want to maybe speak truth. 00:50:31.859 --> 00:50:47.779 What would Jesus say? What would Jesus have rather the church have done? of those things. But in doing that is illustrating the very point of the Church. If I have this 00:50:47.779 --> 00:51:07.198 conversation with somebody and they're like church hurt and I talk with them and I apologize and I seek to point them to Jesus amidst that hurt and if that's effective, well the thing The thing is that the reason that happened is because we sat down and we had a conversation face to face. 00:51:08.278 --> 00:51:09.879 The point of the church is that. 00:51:11.123 --> 00:51:29.596 Like they're not getting that the thing that hopefully at the end of that conversation my prayer would be that they would feel a little bit of healing a little bit of like recognition maybe a little bit bomb on that wound. I didn't get it from watching church online. 00:51:30.172 --> 00:51:31.369 I got it from. 00:51:32.270 --> 00:51:41.173 The physical administration of someone who is prayerfully trying to be Jesus to them in that moment. 00:51:41.173 --> 00:51:58.511 That's what church is. The place where you experience healing, restoration, and redemption for the hurt that you've experienced in church can only happen in church, not by yourself. 00:51:58.693 --> 00:52:10.565 But also the greatest command, right? Commandments of love the Lord your God and love your neighbor as yourself cannot fully be done by yourself. 00:52:10.873 --> 00:52:14.633 You can't love your neighbor as yourself without your neighbors. 00:52:15.264 --> 00:52:20.603 Do you think there's room in this conversation to bring in some form of like incarnational theology? 00:52:21.467 --> 00:52:28.381 Yes. So, you know. I mean, that's like the core of what we're, that's the deeper core of what we're. 00:52:29.333 --> 00:52:40.849 Of ecclesiology. Yeah. Really. So, yeah, like, so the idea there that would be that, you know, God in his sovereignty. 00:52:41.933 --> 00:53:00.591 And in his transcendence could have by divine fiat, right, do this, said this, arranged the pieces of life and eternity in a certain way and then just been like hands off, isolated from humanity. 00:53:02.211 --> 00:53:14.499 Right. Like if we take God's omnipotence, His all-powerfulness, His control of all things, God could have snapped His fingers, said humanity is saved. 00:53:15.381 --> 00:53:28.653 Or this is what's going to be like, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, Right. And he could have been done. But instead, became human. He became flesh, right? Exactly. 00:53:28.653 --> 00:53:40.853 The fullness, as Paul says in Colossians 1, like the fullness of God was wrapped up in who Jesus was. You know, the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen the one and only. 00:53:40.853 --> 00:53:56.531 We have seen His glory, the one who comes from the Father, full of grace and full of truth. And so, So there was a unsatisfactory relationship in transcendent isolation between God and creation. 00:53:57.881 --> 00:54:08.691 It was not satisfactory. And so God satisfied the isolation that was brought about by sin. 00:54:11.033 --> 00:54:24.996 And offered his very presence in his son Jesus to walk with us, to be with us. Through faith in Jesus, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, like the relationship between us and our, 00:54:25.410 --> 00:54:41.971 Heavenly Father between God and us can be, it's intrinsically like inseparable through the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. So I think that there's even like the deeper. 00:54:43.289 --> 00:54:59.171 I think God gives us an example that life is built for relationship, close relationship, but not isolation, and that while you may have relationships other places, well I have 00:54:59.171 --> 00:55:04.048 relationships at work or my family or whatever, right? 00:55:04.331 --> 00:55:11.611 That again, there is no substitute for the relationships that we have and the unity that is. 00:55:12.744 --> 00:55:17.394 That is proclaimed through a common faith in Jesus Christ. 00:55:19.794 --> 00:55:33.074 I mean the early, like we'll go super, like the early church, one of the big things that's in the New Testament, it's not, I don't think it's, it's not named using the term Gnosticism, 00:55:33.074 --> 00:55:47.074 but that's what a lot of Paul's letters are addressing, is this early Christian heresy called Gnosticism. The simplest way of describing that is simply that like the spiritual is more 00:55:47.074 --> 00:55:53.634 important than the physical, right? That we need to somehow escape the physical body to become. 00:55:54.354 --> 00:56:11.634 Spiritual beings. And the funny thing is, is that we've kind of forgotten how much the early church fought against that heresy. And we are Gnostic. Or we're just never told. Or we're just just never told, right? Like for some people listening, they might just be like, what is Gnosticism? 00:56:11.634 --> 00:56:28.786 Spelt with a G actually, G-N-O-S-T-I-C. Right. So it's an old heresy, but like it's very prevalent. Like we, me and you often use the term of like, we're not just brains on sticks. A lot of times the way that like, 00:56:28.903 --> 00:56:38.994 church ministry is done and the reason we don't feel comfortable with someone just choosing to exist in an online church way, it's because you're not just a brain receiving 00:56:38.994 --> 00:56:53.353 information. You have a heart, you have a soul, you have a physical body. God created all of those things, is redeeming all of those things, and at the end of all things, we will have physical bodies. There was something also to be reminded of is that Jesus Christ, 00:56:53.515 --> 00:57:02.254 right now has a physical body. Jesus didn't become spirit again. He remains his physical body with his physical wounds. 00:57:02.894 --> 00:57:11.054 His body was resurrected. Right. The resurrection is bringing back of what was physical into existence. 00:57:11.094 --> 00:57:16.134 So physicality matters. Touch matters. Touch matters. 00:57:16.774 --> 00:57:31.082 And by choosing, knowingly choosing to disembodied ourselves through technology is unincarnating the church. 00:57:33.449 --> 00:57:38.039 That's a really harsh way of saying it, but I think it's a true way of saying it. I agree. 00:57:38.923 --> 00:57:56.499 So, but just to kind of like bring us back to what I think is kind of the core here is not so much that you and I are taking a back to all technology or to streaming itself. No, no. 00:57:56.693 --> 00:58:11.859 What we're hoping to do, and I think the clarity that this conversation's maybe created for both of us is that what we are advocating for is a positive, clear understanding of presence, 00:58:11.859 --> 00:58:27.004 space, and the physicality of the church. It's not that we don't want people to ever watch a a church online for any reason, is that we want people to understand why being here. 00:58:27.739 --> 00:58:34.206 Being together is important, beneficial, healthy, and necessary for being a church. 00:58:34.350 --> 00:58:41.019 Yeah, 100%. Like I said, I don't want to poo poo all technology because it's- We're using it now. 00:58:41.019 --> 00:58:55.859 Yeah, you're listening to it because of it, right? We'll press the go button on the live stream this weekend and we're talking about options for Bible study capture and so that 00:58:55.859 --> 00:59:12.899 we have that content. It's not that, it is once again. I'm not seeking to devalue the use of technology in worship in particular. I'm seeking to elevate the understanding and the importance 00:59:12.899 --> 00:59:30.579 and the priority of physical presence in the community of faith as a way in which to experience the presence of God with those who are seeking to walk with Jesus, to receive in an incarnational 00:59:30.579 --> 00:59:42.263 way, not just a content way, to receive in an incarnational way the proclamation of the gospel and to live in relationship with others who are in the community of faith. 00:59:42.499 --> 00:59:42.866 Mm-hmm. 00:59:43.667 --> 00:59:51.859 Yeah. Well, I think that's plenty for today. I think yeah, that's a little bit of content. 00:59:53.453 --> 01:00:05.943 Of course, there's lots of nuanced perspectives on this. There's 100 different things you can disagree in about that. That's fine. The whole purpose of the podcast is uncut. 01:00:08.063 --> 01:00:16.103 We can't deal with every single nuance, although we may understand them and have wrestled with them ourselves. You might be listening or you might be watching and you might say, 01:00:16.103 --> 01:00:26.723 hey, I would really like to hear what your thoughts are about this topic or about this idea or this this cultural phenomena or this aspect of faith or theology or whatever. 01:00:26.869 --> 01:00:31.334 And so we have created an opportunity or a pathway for you to do that. 01:00:32.503 --> 01:00:45.486 It's a mailbag. And it's a really easy, it's a phone number that you text and we get those texts, not to our personal phones, but we get those texts. 01:00:45.583 --> 01:01:03.883 And then when we have a full mailbag, whatever that means, we'll break it out and we'll, in an uncut way, without having prepared ahead of time extraordinarily or anything like that, we'll deal with those questions and try and get some of those things answered for you, at least in the best way that we know how. 01:01:03.883 --> 01:01:19.243 So that number, if you'd like to send a question to the mailbag, is 716-201-0507 and we'll keep your name anonymous unless you want us to say who you are, give you a shout out online or something like that. 01:01:19.243 --> 01:01:29.803 As you're listening to this, if you find it to be helpful or beneficial or if you just want more people on your team to flame us away for everything that we've said today, 01:01:29.803 --> 01:01:39.603 make sure you like and share this on your social media, subscribe in all the places that you listen, YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, share it with your friends and your family. 01:01:39.603 --> 01:01:53.201 We appreciate you spending the time to be with us today and listening to this use of technology to proclaim things of the gospel that we just talked about for a whole episode. So, thank you. Yep. next time on the Uncut Podcast.