Intro: Should we take offense that it's Women's
History month? (history has not exactly honored women.) Gina had a rough re-entry from vacation, the Disney enchantment, the expense of having kids, the pleasures of one on one time,
Junipero Serra was also a monster,
Whitey Bulger, networking.
Let Me Run This By You: Is
Drag Race sexist?,
Sasha Velour,
Interview: We talk to
Rebecca Spence about
Hendrix College, Phantom of the Opera with
Linda Eder,
Ricky Schroeder and
Silver Spoons,
Erin Gray, taking the Christmas pageant quite seriously, Syler Thomas, being the preacher's daughter, playing Adelaide in
Guys and Dolls and the Stage Manager in
Our Town,
Tisch,
Zelda Fichandler,
Mary Beth Fisher,
Carmen Roman,
Deanna Dunagan,
Ora Jones,
Amy Morton,
Steppenwolf,
Goodman Theatre,
Every Brilliant Thing, Cyrano at
Milwaukee Rep, beauty privilege, aging as an actress,
Linda Evangelista, how Rebecca sees herself in terms of the cultural shift in American theatre, the accessibility benefit of digital theatre.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school
1 (12s):
Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.
2 (15s):
And it's 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.
1 (22s):
And you will too. Are we famous yet? February one, one month behind my friend one month by,
2 (37s):
Well, it's March 1st happy women's history month.
1 (41s):
I didn't even know that's how bad of a woman I am.
2 (45s):
Oh, well I was just thinking like, should we take offense that it's, you know, black history and women's history, like it's all in the past, you know, like why with both of those groups of people, we don't really want to be in the past.
1 (1m 2s):
Oh. And in fact there is a t-shirt that says that people love that. I have the same thought that says the future. Wait, the future of film is female. And I'm like, what about the present of film?
2 (1m 17s):
Right, right. Write
1 (1m 19s):
About like, I don't have a lot of time. I'm 46. Like what are you talking about the future? I mean, I can't be talking about the future. So I, I think the more we can get things in the present, the better off we are,
2 (1m 33s):
The better off we are now you're back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I did not want to come back. I did not leave my vacation. I did not wanna leave 80 degree weather and no responsibilities and fun all day. And it was our, a free entry
1 (1m 53s):
Monday, really? For everybody, just
2 (1m 55s):
You or well, for everybody. But for my part, it was getting in on a very late plane, not getting home till one 30 in the morning. It's two inches of ice on my driveway. So I'm like doing slapstick, trying to get my luggage to my door. My daughter's asleep. Oh my, I took the wrong key. I didn't have the right. I didn't have my house key. I don't know what the key is that I took. And so luckily, I mean, I guess I, nobody knows my address, but luckily we have a door that we often leave unlocked and it was unlocked.
2 (2m 45s):
So we got in and I got my daughter upstairs and I said, just go to sleep. I'll take care of everything. And she was like, yeah, of course, of course. I'm like, I'm not taking care of anything right now. So I remembered that we had some snow melt. I smelled, I go get it. And of course, when I walked into this door, that's usually unlocked. I immediately locked it saying like, we really shouldn't be leaving this open all the time. Oh my God. I know what's coming. I think, keep going, keep going though. And then I get my little ice smell and I go to the back and I closed the door because it's 20 degrees. And I don't want to let all the more mare out. And I happily salt my steps and get the luggage and bring it back up.
2 (3m 30s):
And the door was locked because the door was locked and I still don't have a key. And that my daughter is fast asleep. And not only is she slowly, I've already turned on the white noise machine. So if I ring the doorbell, if I had any chance of her hearing me, which it's pretty scant. And in any case, because she's a heavy sleeper, I've now masked the sound and it's cold, it's cold. And you, I immediately would be like, I have to eat this ice melt. That's not sane. That did not occur to me. Here's what occurred to me. I'm wearing leggings a t-shirt and a thin sweatshirt because I was just in 80 degree weather and sneakers.
2 (4m 12s):
I have no hat. I have no code. I have no gloves. I don't even have a key to the car. That's in the driveway because it's my husband's car. And why would I have a key to that? And we do have a garage code that has been broken for like a year. So I guess I should fix that for next time. I'm in this situation. Yeah. And I just tried ringing the doorbell and I tried yelling her name, you know, from down to like I'm in Romeo and Juliet, just yelling up to her window to the family in Utah. They weren't back. Oh my God.
2 (4m 55s):
I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? Walk to my neighbors at two in the morning and, and do what use, oh, and I didn't mind my phone was inside of, oh my God. Even if I had my phone, what am I going to do? Call my daughter. She doesn't have a cellphone. So I was in a real quandary. I was, I was in a pickle. So here's what I'd come to. I'm going to throw a heavy Boulder through our glass door so that I could get in. And then I'm going to tape it up with cardboard because I must get inside of my house. And then I remembered that another security breach we have is that our window in our dining room that goes directly onto our porch is never locked and very easy to climb through.
2 (5m 43s):
So that's what I did. And I didn't get to sleep until 3:00 AM. And that's just, that was just like, that was just, of course that was my reentry. Like there could have been no other reentry because ending your vacation sucks, sucks,
1 (5m 60s):
Bad. It
2 (6m 0s):
Really sucks. The greatest period of time is like the two weeks before your vacation, when you're getting psyched and then your vacation. And then for me, about two days before it's over, I'm like, oh God, I have to go.
1 (6m 12s):
I, I, I mean, you know, we're, I am really bad at transitions. Like I remember as an actor being told that to like, and I remember thinking that, and I remember thinking that's perfect. Like that, that makes perfect sense. I'm not shocked. And it makes perfect sense. I, there were no transitions in my childhood. It was like, you're being thrown here and then you're being thrown it. And so this all makes sense. And also it to be fair, your vacation did look fucking brilliant.
2 (6m 43s):
Like my vacation was like a
1 (6m 46s):
Dream.
2 (6m 47s):
It was like a dream come true. Honestly, like I kept being like, why is this so amazing? And I, I do. I do think, I, I think I understand now why Disney has the stranglehold on everybody's wallets that it does. It's because for many people, it is a place where your childhood is openly defended and encouraged and people don't get that. You know, and most people don't get that in other realms of their life. And you know, there's a lot of adult, only groups of people at Disney.
2 (7m 28s):
Like I even read a review of our hotel that was complaining about the number of children there. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's called the all star movies. It's like the it's 101 Dalmatian themed and toy story and Fantasia. And I'm thinking, wow, this couple went here thinking, oh,
1 (7m 50s):
People visionary tear like they without no, no, no. There are. Yeah, no, you're right on eighties. I think you've really, really hit the nail on the head. When you said that it's people's childhood encouraged, like, are you kidding me? Like senior pictures. I was like, oh, I'm going there. And I don't care if I go alone. Like, I don't give a fuck. You're going to see me alone. Wandering through Disneyland. Happy as a fucking clam.
2 (8m 19s):
Do you like rollercoasters? No. Oh, you don't like roller coasters. I was going to say, well, let's go together because I didn't get to ride one single roller coaster.
1 (8m 25s):
I will go with you. I would go if I trusted the person, I'm always just like, because I'm so neurotic. I'm like, do I want to die with this person? If I'm with some weird, like, you know, whatever. No I would go with you.
2 (8m 40s):
Well, let me tell you that. I don't know when the last time you went to like a six flags was, but the difference between your run of the mill amusement park and Disney is like the difference between coach on spirit, airline and first class Emirates. Yeah, exactly. It's just, they really, they really curate the experience for you. And I'm so fascinated by all of the work that has gone into just that, like all of the work that has gone into, and we, we had a classmate at the theater school who worked at Disney before she went to theater school and I'm drawing a blank on her name, blonde blonde hair.
2 (9m 23s):
And she told us about some of the rules. They have rules about how long your fingernails could be. And they had rules about your earrings and they had rules. I think some of those rules have changed because I'm pretty sure you didn't used to be able to show tattoos. I think you couldn't have dreadlocks before. Like it was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. So, so they've put a lot of effort into preserving the magic, right? Like you can't, there's this underground tunnel system. So you don't see the characters in there. Cause my daughter kept saying, oh, it was so sweet. She said, there's this hotel that's right near the park. And she said, why didn't we stay at that hotel? And I said, because it's like $3,000 a night. And she said, oh, I bet that's where the princess is live.
2 (10m 7s):
And I said, yeah, maybe. And I, and it was, as you recall, we went through this whole Santa's Easter bunny thing and she's she's hip to that. So I didn't challenge her assumption, but a couple of days later she did. And she said, well, they're not really princesses. They're really people who put on princess dresses. So they probably don't live here. I said, yeah, they probably don't. She said, where do I live? And I said, in an apartment, and I just saw the look on her face, like imagining, you know, Ariel living in her studio in like Florida. Right. And I live in Orlando having gone to theater school and then like, what am I doing? But you know what she's doing? She's fucking making dreams come fucking true is what she's done is like, honestly, it's the Lauren's work.
2 (10m 53s):
I felt like because they have these opportunities for you to meet the princesses, you know? And these people know their characters so well to the point that I can never hear Cinderella, she talks so quietly. I can never hear what she's saying. The, the girl, the woman who plays Rapunzel, that character talked a million miles an hour, she talks a million miles an hour. They read and they just know the ins and outs of their movies, such that they're constantly referencing. Like when, when we met Jasmine, she said, have you seen my monkey?
2 (11m 35s):
A pu I mean, and Clarissa was like, no, is she around here? Like, we'll, we'll go look for him. They really draw you in to the world. Do they are master storytellers? That's what they are Disney is. And these people, their whole,
1 (11m 54s):
I know people that go on Disney cruises that are like, I would live on this boat if I could.
2 (12m 2s):
Yeah, man. It's so enticing. It, it really is. And I, and I found myself being like, okay, this is like a museum product. It's a vacation. Like, but I think it made it harder to leave Mo a lot of times I have to say, especially since having kids, no offense to my kids. A lot of times when I come back from vacations, I'm like so relieved for it to be over because I've had to do so much work. I mean, traveling with one kid, who's pretty, self-sufficient was very easy to put a whole new spin on a family vacation.
1 (12m 38s):
It's my new thing, which is one-on-one time. So what I noticed in your pictures and social media was that when it's one-on-one time and I just had my niece here, right? Yes. I want to hear all about that. One-on-one time is so much different than family time. And I never had one-on-one time with either of my parents. Not that I really wanted it, but like, it was always trying to force groups or other families with our family. And I think one-on-one time people don't like to do because it's so intimate. And I, and I get that. But I also think when I saw your pictures, what I noticed was a genuine happiness and a knot in your face and your daughter's face, but also like a fun, it looked like fun.
1 (13m 27s):
And a lot of times when you see family fucking pictures, everyone looks miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, and it's no one's fault, but that is the jam. It is miserable to be in a group.
2 (13m 37s):
It is miserable. And actually, as we were walking around, she kept saying, why is that? Dad's screaming at his kid? Like there was a moment where somebody was, I didn't observe it, but there was a baby crying. And how she reported it to me was that this mother told the baby to stop crying. And I said, well, you know, we're not having that experience because you're not a baby. And because we're not all together, but we've had a lot of experiences like that. You know, I'm glad that you don't necessarily think, look at that and say, oh, that's just like our family. But that is just like our family when we're all together,
1 (14m 17s):
It's a dynamic. So this is my whole, my whole like new way of seeing things. Not new way. But like w what helps me get through situation is like, oh, this is a dynamic problem. It is, it is a energetic, interpersonal problem. It's not one, one person's fault. But like, I now will never, I said to my niece, like, I only want to do one on one time with, with each of you. Great
2 (14m 45s):
Idea. Great idea. So how did that whole thing
1 (14m 47s):
Come to be? So I really wanted to, so each I have taken my nephew and my niece, the oldest one on solo trips, right. To two different places. But the youngest has never been, and then the pandemic hit. And so I was like, wait a second. This isn't fair. Not that life is fair, but I like to keep things kind of like, I don't want her being like, what the hell? I'm the youngest? Cause I was the youngest. I get it. So I was like, all right, I want a lease to come out here. But by herself, without my sister, without the kids, without George, like, no, no, no, no, no. Also our place is so small. Only one person could fit in it. Right. So a small person.
1 (15m 28s):
And so I said to my sister for her 13th birthday, which was Sunday, I want to fly Elise out. And so that's what I did. And she, she had president's day, right? So she, she missed one day of school because me and Mr. Davis school to do something with my sister and at least came and we had a blast one-on-one man, I'm all about trying to help the dynamic, not be unmanageable for myself and for others, but I'm really thinking about myself. Like
2 (15m 60s):
Probably so appreciated the attention she got. Right. Because I'm sure there's not much opportunity for her to get individual attention.
1 (16m 8s):
It's not practical. It just doesn't happen. There's so much going on. And you know, and, and so we had a blast. Now look, one thing that I was telling my therapist yesterday, I was like, oh, this is what I realized about children. They're fucking a lot of energy, even one brilliant child, right. That is, is just being a child. That's turning 13, no problems. Still, a lot of energy goes out cause she's, you know, and they're fucking expensive. So I don't care. I mean, I don't, I know nothing about, I know 100th of what the costs would be, but I'm like, oh my God.
1 (16m 48s):
And we weren't even doing crazy shit. We were so like, for people to say like, oh, a family of four or five can live on 50,000, $50,000. I'm like, are you, I spent like $50,000 in three days that I don't have, what are you talking about?
2 (17m 3s):
This is why, I mean, I have avoided saying miss in the past, but this is why we make so much money and have nothing. I mean, we have our house, we have a house, we own a house and we own cars. Yeah. But we have nothing else. We have nothing else. We have no savings. We have nothing else because 100% of our money goes to this very expensive thing we've chosen to do, which is
1 (17m 28s):
Yeah. And, and I have so much, I'm like, oh my God. Just even light. Yeah. Just life. Just not even buying. I mean, we didn't go crazy. We didn't go to Beverly Hills. We're not like living. Okay. So we went to, she got in really late Friday night and we went to, then we slept in a little bit. And then we went to the beach, went to my favorite beach, which is a unibrow beach who I found out was a terrible ruler that killed a lot of indigenous people, which is sad. But anyway, yeah. Paradise, Sarah that bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, man. I thought he was a Franciscan monk. I don't know my okay. I don't know.
1 (18m 9s):
Anyway. So it was like, oh, you know, he killed a bunch of indigenous people. I'm like, oh, that's great. Anyway. So we went to that beach in long beach, my favorite beach. Cause it's super chill. It's not a scene. It's not like Malibu. It's not like it's like down home. I love long beach. Right. And I also have an affinity to long beach because my ex lived there who passed away. So I like long beach, a lot. I have like special memories of that. And so we did that. We went, we ate like I now, because we moved to the pandemic. I had no reference for good food in my, in my neighborhood, in Pasadena, in LA none. So I was like, all right, we're gonna use this as an opportunity to explore dude, look, it has no, it doesn't hold a candle to Chicago.
1 (18m 55s):
Cause that's just how, you know, Chicago. I always tell people like Chicago is the best food and you'll die of a heart attack, but like, you'll eat the best food. We found great restaurants that we ate at. We, so we did a lot of eating. We did a lot of walking, walking around. We did some walks, some hikes. She obsessed with my dog Doris. And she was really, really good with her. Like trained her. Like she's really, she and her brother are both really into training dogs. So she did a lot of training with Torres, which I kept up zero. And then I just, I just don't care. And then I just don't, that's the truth. And we just really spent time together talking about life and about, you know, her, her life as a 13 year old and teenage stuff.
1 (19m 42s):
And, but it was, it was only, it was like she got in Friday night, she was here Saturday, all day, Sunday, all day, Monday, all day. She left Tuesday afternoon. I was so exhausted. I was like, I don't know. I have. So again, I have so much respect for her parents and people who are engaged with their kids. That's what I'll say. Like people who actually are trying to fucking be engaged. It's it's insane. I don't know how anyone has time to do anything else. Let me run this by, You know, I go into my little phases with the content I'm consuming and right now I'm really deep into con reconsider.
1 (20m 31s):
This is an old love that I kind of got away from drag race. Oh, right. Yeah. And I never had this thought before and I'm not, I don't have a judgment about it really either way. It's truly just a curiosity.
2 (20m 47s):
Curious to know what your thoughts are. Did you ever watch
1 (20m 49s):
That show? So I watched it a long time ago when it first came out. Did they remounted like, is there's different incarnations?
2 (20m 57s):
Yeah. They're on like season 13 or something like that. Yeah.
1 (21m 0s):
I watched it at the beginning when I also got into project runway and I got into America's next top model and all that stuff. Yeah. I, I, it wasn't my thing. It just didn't, it didn't compel me. Like I wanted it to love it and I, it's not, what is it about me? It is that, or the show. It's not my type of reality show in that. I just don't care enough. It's you know, about fat, like the fashion, the fashion. I, I'm more interested in the psychological component and at least at the beginning, it wasn't a huge part of the show.
2 (21m 45s):
Yeah. Well, for me it is the clue. Remember on star search when they used to have acting that acting component and it was so boring to watch, you know, because it's just not the same as singing and dancing. Right. Even I, as a little kid was like, this is boring. I didn't want to watch the acting part of star search. So we don't have an acting reality competition show. Drag race is the closest thing we have to because drag is theater, you know, it's creating character it's it's and, and there, the art has elevated to such a degree that the people who are really killing it are doing things that you would not imagine are drag and they're not wearing breastplates and they're not, they're just there.
2 (22m 37s):
And it's part of this whole concept of gender fluidity, which I'm really interested in. But my, my question is, is it inherently sexist that these men are doing female impersonations, right? Because, and a big part of it is the humor. And I just had this mode of being like, wait, is the fundamental conceit here that we're laughing at men being women, because why would you be a woman when you can be a man? I just, yeah, it may not be. And, and many, many drag artists may be feminists may consider themselves feminist.
2 (23m 22s):
I think RuPaul is not necessarily a feminist and he's not, he's not necessarily anti-racist. I mean, I think he's problematic in his own way, but it just occurred to me like, what am I laughing at this idea about just being a woman? Are we, are we trivializing? And we're making it frivolous.
1 (23m 43s):
It's so interesting. Like, I mean, think that it goes, what comes to mind is also like, how do the artists identify? Like, do they identify as, as, as non, you know, non-conforming or, or, or, or how, how did they feel?
2 (23m 60s):
Right. That's been an interesting evolution in the show actually from the first season. I think they they've had, they had at least one person who through the course of doing, it said, actually, I'm not, I don't really want to do drag. I want to be a woman. I am a woman. There's, there's been that. And I haven't really followed it closely, but there has been some controversy about like, well, if you have a woman, a trans woman on the show, then is it still drag? Right. So there's all these questions. I don't really know where that debate sits at the present moment, but I do know that very many people who consider themselves drag artists don't consider themselves men in any way.
1 (24m 43s):
So it's like, right. I, so that, that then leads me to be super curious about yes, like can cat it become one. It reminded me of Shakespeare when she experienced time pretending to be women. And it was always, you know, women weren't allowed to be actors or whatever, and they, and they also like, you know, they would make fun in a higher sort of, even a intellectual way. They were making fun of the, the weaker sex, whatever. So, yes, I think there's a part of it that we're just laughing at the horror show that is being a woman. And then the other thing that I was thinking about was I think you're onto something when, if we can transform it from being about that, to being about elevating art too.
1 (25m 29s):
Like when you said things that you wouldn't that piques my interest, wouldn't consider quote, drag. That is like, where I think we're headed in theater, right?
2 (25m 38s):
Like, oh yes, we must be. I mean, if we are to survive, we must be headed in that way.
1 (25m 44s):
Can you give me an example of like what, what you wouldn't consider drag that is like,
2 (25m 50s):
I got there's this drag artists named Sasha Valore and sh I'm right now, I'm on season. I forget if it's eight or nine, it might be nine. And she Sasha the lore does L well, first of all, and I think he identifies as a man. He does his art is political and intellectual. And he's one of these people who doesn't wear fake breasts. He does, he, what he does is he covers his nipples with pastries and, and, but builds the most beautiful garments around a look around an idea blend.
2 (26m 31s):
And, and it's rough. What I love is when it's referencing so many different things, when he explains his outfit later, he's like, well, this is a reference to Marlena Dietrich. And this is, this is a reference to, you know, the, how the gay culture in Russia exists because it's, you know, it's illegal to dress in drag there and, and homosexuality is not outright illegal, but it's, you know, obviously not a way that you want to go around presenting yourself. It's just this elevated conversation. I mean, the first time I ever saw actual drag was in Las Vegas at a show, I was a teenager and I couldn't believe I'd never seen it before.
2 (27m 15s):
I couldn't believe how much this man looked like a woman. And that's what the drag was. It was all about pretty much straight forward, like glamor looking as feminine as possible. And it has just come a long way since then. And now it's about, it's really just about embodying characters.
1 (27m 34s):
So yeah, you love storytelling. So this is what I'm getting at from the Disney thing. And from this is that you love detailed nuance, researched and referenced storytelling. Totally. That is your jam. So
2 (27m 51s):
It was my mind when, when all of these disparate things can come together into one cohesive piece of art. That's what I like in plays. That's what I like in books. That's what I like him.
1 (28m 1s):
So that's really interesting to know. Like, I think also like, yeah, for me, what I like is yes, super detailed, specific thought out things like I remember my favorite thing as a kid was pop-up books that had teeny little hidden parts that you wouldn't expect to have a tab that have it. That was my fucking jam. I was like, that is what I like about television is when there's callbacks or references or little Easter eggs, or like where you're like, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. Did you notice that the, you know, like I get into that because it means ultimately that people fucking care what they're doing.
1 (28m 45s):
Yeah,
2 (28m 46s):
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. That's what really gets you. That people care Today on the podcast we are talking to Rebecca, Rebecca is an actor. And if you live in Chicago and see theater, there's a very good chance that you've seen her on more than one occasion in more than one brilliant star Trek. She also does film and television. She's got actually a television series, 61st street. She's in Candyman, that's out in theaters right now.
2 (29m 26s):
She was in one of my favorite shows, easy, which featured a lot of great Chicago actors. We didn't really talk about any of that. We talked about her as dying love for Chicago theater and her absolute respect for the actors that make it happen. So please enjoy our with Rebecca Spence
3 (29m 52s):
Podcast or a voiceover.
2 (29m 55s):
What's the matter with you? Why don't you get with it podcast or be a professional podcast? It's so easy. Honestly, you just break right into the market. You get tons of downloads. And
3 (30m 9s):
This is what I hear. It's amazing that I haven't jumped on this bandwagon yet. I don't know.
2 (30m 14s):
I will say the number, the apex of active podcasts or podcasts that were downloadable in the pandemic was 2 million up from 750,000 before the pandemic.
3 (30m 29s):
I absolutely
2 (30m 30s):
Believe it's trending back down because I think people realize like it's kind of a lot of work to maintain something every week. So, you know, we're just hoping to get back into that sweet spot. Maybe even less people will do it and we'll get down to like half a million. So then we'll really have a chance. Anyway, congratulations, Rebecca Spence, you survived theater school. Wait, wait. You're, you're looking, you're looking like you don't agree with me.
3 (30m 59s):
I, I I'd like to reframe it a little bit. I, I survived a theater major. I did not survive the grad school audition process. I Did not into the theater school.
2 (31m 18s):
We've often said we should call it. We should really call this. I survived my desire to be famous, whether you became famous or not, you know, like you have to contend with your, with your desire for us,
1 (31m 29s):
Never went to grad school for you went to undergrad and you got a theater major, and then you, and then you went to you, you auditioned for grad schools and didn't get it. What, how could Rebecca Spence that fucking get into grad school? Are you kidding me?
3 (31m 43s):
No. What I was doing, I didn't have a clue what I was doing. So I, but I can say that my audition process for grad school is what brought me to Chicago and, and made me fall in love with Chicago. And ultimately helps me choose Chicago as a home base, which is where I've had my education. I, my entire education in theater has been through observing and watching people very, very, very good at what they do. And
2 (32m 15s):
Just observing or asking people. I mean, you said you didn't know what you were doing when you were auditioning, but
3 (32m 21s):
Yeah, I went to my, I had, I don't know anything to compare it to. I think I had a great theater experience in, at my tiny little school. We had a three professor department and they were wonderful. I, I looked at some conservatories for undergrad and I just wasn't entirely sure if that was what I wanted to do. Cause I didn't know anything about professional theater, not a thing I grew up in, in, in Texas. I had, I think I saw maybe one professional production.
3 (33m 2s):
I had a friend whose parents were into musicals and they gifted me with an evening to go see Phantom of the opera with Linda ETR of all people. So I'm like, if you're going to get an experience seeing it, that was great. But I knew I wasn't a musical person. I didn't have that kind of gift. And I didn't know what, like I never had seen regional theater. I had never gone to
1 (33m 29s):
Like a play
3 (33m 30s):
Play. No, I think my parents took me to a community college production of glass, menagerie,
1 (33m 39s):
Light fodder for a child have to say like, what is coming forward for me when you're talking about, you're not the first person to say like a musical with the first introduction to any kind of acting and they get a bad rap, sometimes musicals, but they're a gateway for so many kiddos. It's like magic. I'm like obsessed with musicals now.
3 (34m 7s):
Yeah. I I'm the youngest of three girls by a large margin. My sisters are nine and 11 years older than I am. And so they would put on plays and then stick me in them. So I was kind of dressed up a lot and they'd be like, go say this. And I would do that. And I've got
1 (34m 27s):
Actors now. What's that? Are
3 (34m 29s):
They actors now? Okay. No, not at all. No. We just had very active imaginations. And so I, but I loved it. I, I always wanted to be, I had a very active imagination and, and wanted to, I knew I wanted to act like I, I want it to be on silver spoons. Oh,
1 (34m 50s):
Well, here we are facing. I always, I always thought that the line was here. We are faced to face a Comella silver spoons. Somehow someone informed me that Kamala, wasn't a real word. You guys. And so I was like, wait, what do you, they were like, what did you just say? They're like, say it again. And they were like, you know, that's not the line, but anyway, you want it to be in silver. Did you want to be on like, Ricky's like sister or anything? Like you just wanted to be in that world?
3 (35m 26s):
Oh no. I had a whole, I had a whole plot line. Oh yeah, no. I was also going to be adopted into the family. Oh yeah. They were, I, I was also going to be adopted into the family, but then of course we were going to become love interest. Of course it's very twisted. I was, I was quite convinced. I, you know, Aaron Gray was going to be my mother. Oh. I also loved buck Rogers. So it was a big club look, Roger. So I kind of followed Erin gray. I thought she was quite possibly the most glamorous woman I'd ever seen. And that's not true.
3 (36m 6s):
Doris Day was, but I wanted to be parented by
1 (36m 13s):
Yes. I mean, that's like me and like my modern day telling Brian Cox, I wanted him to be my new father. Right. And that didn't, he was like, people have told me that before. It was actually, it's a real thing. So like, okay, so you, you want it to be that. And then how did that translate Rebecca into like actually studying it? Because like, how did you know? It was a thing
3 (36m 37s):
I started doing a lot of plays in church. I did a lot of church. Like I was married about 12 times. It feels like, and I remember taking, I remember my like little, my first like actual play. I remember, I think I had been four and I was married and I took it really seriously. And the little boy who was playing Joseph, who also happened to be named Joey was not taking it seriously. And he kept taking his little robe and throwing it over his head. And I remember being livid, absolutely livid. I just was, I was so disappointed because I really felt like I was giving off as many, like holy maternal vibes as I possibly could.
3 (37m 26s):
And he, he wasn't up to the task.
1 (37m 28s):
Did you find it, did he get fired or like, did he get recast recast?
3 (37m 33s):
I I, no. No, no. I mean, my memory is being up in front of the, I don't remember any group kind of rehearsal process. I just remember being up there and holding my little baby doll and feeling very pious Over. And Joey was like screwing with a shepherd.
1 (37m 54s):
That's fantastic. I am Joey, by the way, I would be the Joey. I'd be like doing dance moves and they'd be like this one, but here's the thing
3 (38m 3s):
Laughing. And that's why it was because people were laughing and they, you know, he was drawing attention and laughing. And I was like, I don't remember this being a comedy. This is a comment
1 (38m 19s):
Here's, what's interesting about that story for me is that you w I've never worked with you as an actor, but I know from being around you and seeing you work, that you are not enough, and this is not, well, I'll just say it like, you are like a consummate per actor. Like you, you take this shit seriously, which I adore, which I actually learned from people like that. But like, you are very kind and lovely, but you also are a fucking professional actor. And there is like, I know that sounds so obvious, but you know what I mean? Like there are people like Joey that fuck around at age four, which is fine. He's four. But like the fact that you didn't fuck around as Mary at age four, I think is actually an important thing in your, in your history because you take this shit seriously.
1 (39m 7s):
Also. You're like you work all the time, which is fantastic, which I don't think there's a coincidence there. That's all I'm saying. That's all. Yeah.
3 (39m 19s):
Thank you. I mean, I knew I wanted to do, I played a lot alone. I mean, I was alone all the time. So I was constantly like perfecting different personalities. I mean, because I moved as much as I did, we moved every two and a half to three years. I had like an opportunity to like, be put into different scenarios. And that was just like a playground for me to, to, well, first of all, it was survival. It was trying to figure out where am I? How do I fit in? How do I make friends? What what's like that group of people doing and how do I sort of evolve and adapt. So that they'll speak to me.
1 (39m 57s):
Did you move because of your family? Were you a military situation?
3 (40m 2s):
God's military? My, my father was an Episcopal priest, tiny segue. I listened to your podcasts and I'm the one that, that I just delighted and was listening to Siler. Thomas. I knew Siler Thomas from church camp. I had no idea Seiler Thomas. Wasn't cool. We, I grew up sort of adjacent to, to him. He's older than I am. So he was in a much like cooler hipper, older church crap. And, but we went to like all of the same, like regional functional things.
3 (40m 47s):
Cause my father was an Episcopal priest. And so he was very active in youth stuff. And so I went with him. That's how I know Seiler camp counselor. And I was a camper and I had no clue that he was a theater person. No, I can't
2 (41m 5s):
Wait to tell him. I can't wait to tell him
3 (41m 7s):
We reconnected sort of over Facebook, but I haven't seen him, but I listened to his entire podcast and I, I, I got really, I got really excited.
2 (41m 15s):
Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's fantastic. What I would have done if I had to move every couple of years is I would have pretended that I was British. When I came to a new school. Did you ever adopt new, like a really different
3 (41m 31s):
Personality? No, I couldn't. We were always sort of presented, like we were kind of presented as a family so that wouldn't have ever worked out for me. I did have a friend though in the sixth grade, my friend, Susan. And it was the first time we in, I was in Waco, Texas, and we went to all the sixth graders, went to one school for me, entire city were busted into a sixth grade center and we would rotate classes and she, and I would come up with like each class that we were in. We would have completely different personalities. We would like today where the really loud Rawkus girls and today were very shy and reserved, but today where the pranksters.
3 (42m 17s):
And
1 (42m 18s):
So you did go to theater school cause that's all we did. So there
2 (42m 23s):
Starting at four years old, you started your year to school
3 (42m 25s):
Training.
2 (42m 28s):
Yeah. So when you finally, when it was time for college, you were considering conservatories, but decided not to. How did you pick the school that you went to Hendrix?
3 (42m 41s):
I picked Hendricks because they had a theater program and my parents said that I had to be within a day's drive. And so they said, we can, you can go to school, but we have to be able to be able to drive to you within 12 hours, if anything happens. So I went 10 and a half hours away to two Hendricks college in Arkansas and had a pretty campus. And I, I knew, I, I knew I wanted to do theater. I had started doing more professional place, not professional, but, but really high quality plays in high school.
3 (43m 21s):
And I knew that I wanted to keep doing that. I really loved it. I just sort of disappeared into that. And that was, that was a safe way to build quick family, you know, do you found your people really fast? And I, I, that, that felt good to me. So I really enjoyed it. And
2 (43m 41s):
Were they known for having a great theater department?
3 (43m 45s):
No, but they built, so I did my freshman year, we moved in the middle of my eighth grade year and I had one freshman year in a, in a really small, small town in Southeast Texas or S yeah, it was near the coast and that didn't, that didn't go so well for me. And I ended up being sent to boarding school.
1 (44m 13s):
What did you do? Were you depressed?
3 (44m 15s):
Very poor choices and trying to, in trying to, to fit in, what is it,
1 (44m 21s):
Does that mean? What does that mean? Did you smoke cigarettes or like kill people? What happened like
3 (44m 27s):
In the middle? No, I, I had some substance stuff happened. I found the substances are pretty early in like, like an eighth grade. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. I mean, we, we lived in the town that I lived in was known for grass farming and rodeo, and we didn't have anything to do. There was no, there was no movie theater. We didn't have a Walmart. We didn't have a skating rink there. It was,
1 (44m 57s):
It's like Footloose the toast.
3 (44m 60s):
So what we did is we went out to fields and drank like, that's true. That was what you did. So I, I, I wanted to do that. So I drank a lot and then I got caught a lot. And so my parents had a panic and sent me to boarding school in Austin, which they had a, really a growing theater department. And by the time I graduated, they had built this huge complex. So my senior year was the first year they sort of became an art school. So I kind of said goodbye. I mean, our first production was like, I remember they flew in some flats from Las Vegas.
3 (45m 42s):
I want to say we did guys and dolls, but we had like actual professional flats. And it was like my senior year. I was like, oh my God
1 (45m 51s):
Star, were you the star Rebecca? I was
3 (45m 53s):
Adelaide Adelaide. And then I got to be the stage manager in our town. So that was, but of course I, I didn't know what that meant. I wanted to be Emily,
1 (46m 5s):
Emily, of course. And then there were
3 (46m 7s):
Like stage manager and I was like, what? I'm stage managing the play? Like, I clearly hadn't read the whole play. I just read what I was like. I didn't know that that meant I had more to do. And it ended up being like a really, really meaningful, beautiful experience.
2 (46m 24s):
And just getting back to like the making. Cause I, I really love talking about making bad decisions. Would you say that you kind of did the, there is a trope of a preacher's daughter getting in to trouble? Is that what happened to you? Yeah, it was a rebellion against,
3 (46m 43s):
I mean, I, I just, you know, is there either the really, really good girl or the really, really bad girl and I, I, I didn't want to be the really, really,
1 (46m 56s):
Really hard position to be like, I can't imagine, like, even if your parents are like the nicest people there, again, there's a status thing that happens when there's someone in the community is touted as a certain thing. Like it's like royalty a little bit in America. Like we don't have, you know, so it's like you it's like, and then you're expected to behave a certain way. And as much as I had, like, I would say very little care and guidance in some ways I also didn't have a lot of pressure to be a certain way because we were all just like, there was no title. Like my parents didn't do anything. So it's, it's a tricky situation. But what I'm, what I'm also noticing is that the, the poor decision making and the drinking and they're getting caught actually was, it led to some really good fucking theater like that.
1 (47m 46s):
You went to Austin and you got to do like really good acting work. So it worked. I mean, you know, it wasn't a, it wasn't an all a bad thing. So you were like, yes,
3 (47m 58s):
I have learned more from my, my failures than I have ever learned from my successes. And I've had a lot of failures. I've had a lot of,
1 (48m 8s):
You know, something that I can speak to from being in like an insider in Chicago or formerly, and now in California, but being at a Chicago actor is like, everybody, I want to talk about the pressure in Chicago. So you are one of those people in Chicago that everyone's like, oh, Rebecca Spence books, everything. And I know it's not, I listen. I'm not saying it's true. This is what I'm saying. Let's get to the heart of the thing that I want to ask, which is from being on the I'm now on the outside looking in. Right. So what is it like? Cause that's always something that I heard and it has actually very little to do with you with other people's shit.
1 (48m 48s):
Right? It's not, I'm not saying you are doing anything, but what I'm asking as a woman and a performer, what is it like? And it's easy for me to do now because I'm in LA. So I don't give a, you know, like it's like, what does it feel like to have that kind of pressure of people, first of all, are you aware of it? That people are like Rebecca spins, books, everything. And then how does that affect you? And do you want to tell them to go fuck off? Or are you like, I work really hard.
3 (49m 14s):
Well, this, if this I'll take it two steps back, because this is a Testament to how much I, I love and admire Chicago theater. My understanding, I, I didn't get into theater school because I sabotage my auditions because I didn't know what kind of an actor I wanted to be. I actually, I choked. I freaked out because I thought that if you wanted to be an actor that meant that you wanted to be famous. And, and so I went to NYU, I came to Chicago to audition for theater school that I did the errata and auditioned for NYU Tisch.
3 (49m 56s):
And then I crashed the Harvard art. I didn't know you could crash. And somebody said you did. So I just got in line and I crashed the Harvard auditions. I made it to the final rounds of, of Tish. And I flew to New York and had a solid panic attack. I just, I didn't know anything about New York. I had, I came from tiny town in Texas. I had never been to Chicago. I had never been to New York. I didn't have a smartphone. I didn't know how to get around. I, I met Zelda. I met, you know, I did all the stuff. I was like, I can't afford this. I don't, I don't know what this is. I don't know what I'm doing. And I, I P I straight up chokes and, and really sabotage my own audition.
3 (50m 40s):
But I liked Chicago and my husband got a job here and we moved here and then somebody said, you know, I needed to find a job. I didn't even know. They were like, what about the Goodman theater? And I, I was like, I don't even know what that is. And I didn't know what, like actual regional theater was. And I ended up getting a job in development at, at the Goodman theater, because I was too scared to act. Cause I thought I don't actually know what I'm doing. I didn't know how to do like prepare a monologue very well. I had done that my senior year in college. Like we prepared one monologue. I didn't know like how to go through that whole process. But I started working at the Goodman. I started watching, I saw Chicago actors come on stage.
3 (51m 24s):
And it was people like Mary Beth Fisher, people like Carmen, Roman people like Deanna Dunnigan. Like people, people like Ora Jones. Like that was when I started hearing when they were like, oh, oh, oh my God. Or Jones is going to be on say, oh my God, Amy Morton. I'm like, who wait, who are these people who wait, who are these people? And like, people that I started hanging out like the theater crowd, when they started speaking about these people and their work ethic, I was like, that's what I want. I want to be a well-respected name in a medium sized town.
3 (52m 5s):
That's that to me is how I know I've made it. If people are like, oh, oh, we want to go see that show because I guarantee you, you're going to see someone who has put in the time, put in the effort, they're going to bring nuance. They're going to bring, you know, a craft to it. That was my goal. That's. And so when I hear that, there's part of me, that's like, I still don't know what I'm doing, but the little ego part in the back of my brain is like, it's what we've always wanted.
1 (52m 38s):
Yeah, no.
3 (52m 39s):
I wanted to be a respected actor in a town that who, whose work? I respect so much. I fucking love Chicago actors. And I love Chicago theater. I don't think there's any better theater in the country. I think that, that the work ethic and the quality of people that go in and do the work and bring, bring their hearts and their souls to it. That's all I've ever wanted to be a part of. So when you say, when you're like, oh, she works all the time. I'm like, I, I, I don't, I mean, I do work, but there's part of me. It's like, oh my God, maybe we're doing it. Maybe
1 (53m 17s):
I can tell you right now, Rebecca Spence, that you are doing the thing. Because when I saw you in, what was it? Every brilliant thing is that the, It was, it was beautiful. And when I saw it, I was like, oh yeah, this is why she, she books. She works all the time. It's all relative. Right. But that thing of she works all the time. But like, this is why it actually is because you're good at what you do. And you're also, like you said, you actually really care about the thing we were talking about. Caring, like Disney really cares how they take care of their parks. Like, that's a, that's a segue, but like, that's the, the point is that you, you, the care that you put into your, your art is very desirable, right?
1 (54m 5s):
Like people want to work with that. And I think in Chicago, there is this sense of, we're just sometimes we're just there to make it to the next place. But what it sounds like for you is like, this is your place
3 (54m 18s):
I'm here. Like this is, I have no desire to move to New York. I have no desire to move. I'm doing exactly what I always like. I'm doing more than I ever thought I ever hoped that I could do.
2 (54m 33s):
Like, wow.
1 (54m 34s):
I mean,
3 (54m 35s):
I ever thought that I hook could hope to do so. I am. I'm always really grateful because I,
2 (54m 46s):
Yeah, honestly, I, I really think that more people could stand to do that, to have as their goal. You know what, one of the things that has come out of this glut of information put out us all the time is this concept of like exceptionalism and that you only really hear reflected or, or echoed or amplified stories of people who are exceptional. People who make millions of dollars or people who, whatever graduate Harvard when they're 10 years old. And it, one of the casualties of it is that I think people who are forming their identities don't necessarily get enough examples of people who are achieving anything in the middle, you know, any kind of other success.
2 (55m 36s):
And, and we know how much these extreme successes lead to like tragedy. In a lot of cases, we'd be doing ourselves a favor. If we could put more stories of like, I aimed for this thing, that is not the, you know, the outer limit, but is, you know, difficult to do, but was obtainable for me. I think that would be,
1 (55m 57s):
I think it's so good. And I think that the, the also the, the irony or whatever it is is that now you, you, in terms of, in terms of film and television, you do book that work too, but it's not because your it's like you, that was your goal. And, and all this theater stuff is just sort of there it's like that work comes because of the, what you have done build the platform. And I think Gina, what you're speaking about is nobody's building the fucking platform on which to stand. So it's like all of a sudden, they're just catapulted on this platform at the top of the sky, and there's nowhere to go, but fall. Right. So you've done the work to build the platform, Rebecca.
1 (56m 40s):
And I think that that's, that's rare that doesn't happen. And I think that's fricking amazing because you have something to stand on. You're not like floating in LA like on a pedestal about,
3 (56m 53s):
I wouldn't do well in LA. I don't think I, I don't think I would do well there. I could maybe hang out in New York, but I don't think LA would, I liked LA. I went out there for just a brief moment just to see what it felt like. And people are like, oh, you're going to love it, or you're going to hate it. And I didn't feel either way. I, I liked it. I mean, I, I, wasn't responsible for living there and getting rent, paying rent. I was staying in a friend's pool house. And so I had a place to live for a month and I had one audition. So I hiked, it did a lot of hiking, which was great. And I found little pockets there, but I've thought, I don't think I could live in a town that is just constantly cycling around one industry.
3 (57m 41s):
And that was kind of how I've always operated. I didn't want to go to a conservatory because I was like, there's way more to me than just acting like, I, I love, I, I like, I love what I do it's but it's not the only thing that drives me. Like I like theater and acting is, is the thing that I love most, most of all, but I really there, I love Chicago, so there's so much more to do than just
2 (58m 10s):
So true. So I keep thinking about a little Rebecca and little Joey, we've heard a lot of stories about people who, when they were in college, feeling resentful about P other people who they felt like didn't take it seriously enough people, you know, like a common thing is a person who had to work really hard to get a full ride because they couldn't have afforded it to go to college otherwise. And then to be there with people who are partying instead of, you know, spending a hundred percent of their time dedicated to what they're doing. Does that come up for you now working on something now, do you encounter people who you feel maybe aren't fully appreciating the opportunity they're being given or, or at this level now, are you mostly with people who take it very seriously to,
3 (59m 3s):
Yeah, I haven't had that. And I mean, most of the people that I work with are really just so excited to be in the room. I mean, I, I, I th I can think of one instance when I was doing non-equity theater in a basement somewhere for, for, I was the only female in the entire, in the entire production, like cast, crew, everything. It was, it was me. And it was a bunch of guys that were kind of jerking around a little bit and it affected, it was like a really serious play.
3 (59m 45s):
And I remember one of them pulled up a pretty, I don't want to say dangerous, dangerous is too extreme of a term, but it was a play. It was days of wine and roses, which was, and you know, where I have to, the character ends up drink in some, but they, they changed the bottle and put actual alcohol in it onstage, and didn't tell me. And so I chugged and had like a thing of alcohol and I was like, and nobody would fess up to it. Like nobody who did, who did it? Y'all who did that? Just like tell me, and no one would, would, would fess up to it.
3 (1h 0m 26s):
And then I was like, this sucks. Yeah. That's actually, that's the only time I can think of when I was like, I'm, I'm putting my heart and soul into it for the most part. No, I've never, I thought, what about upset or like, is everyone you're working with really like, to joke around too. I mean, I, yeah, what I do on stage, I take very silly, but I love to play. I'm a prankster. I liked to, I I'm very silly. I like to be silly. I, I love people that are having a fantastic time. And when I know that it's not like messing up somebody else's process I'll jump right in.
3 (1h 1m 7s):
Cause I, I like it. So I haven't had any, what's a, what's a favorite project. Gosh, there've been, there've been a lot. I did a production of a three person Cyrano up at Milwaukee rep and it was the first time I'd ever left Chicago. And we did a three person version of, of Cyrano where we did made all of the sound effects ourselves.
3 (1h 1m 49s):
And so we switched characters and jumped and I had never done anything like that of like sort of it wasn't devised, but it, it, it was much more deconstructed than anything that I had ever been a part of. And it was, and we toured it. We toured it all around Wisconsin and into Minnesota and I'd, I'd never done it. I'd never done summer stock. I had never done anything like that. And we were this little Merry band of three, plus our manager in a, in a van driving all over making, you know, I was, we would do the sword fights and I would, I would use the foils and make all the sound effects and sheets.
3 (1h 2m 30s):
And I just thought that was, it was, it was a great time. I love it.
1 (1h 2m 34s):
Why did you love it? Like what, what you just love doing the like, cause it was the first time you did it or like what was the feeling that you were like, this is fucking awesome. Wow.
3 (1h 2m 44s):
Creative thing. And we surprise so many people because we made like the set was made out of ladders and like we would make the set and I love surprising the audience cause they would come in, they'd be like, what the, what is this? Like, are you like, oh God, we're gonna watch people like create out of boxes. See it, like, you're going to take me on one of these like craft paper theater projects and what am I getting myself into? And with just like a little thing of twinkle lights and we, and I was working with these two phenomenal actors, Reese, Madigan, and Ted Daisy, who work at Milwaukee rep all the time out and, and Oregon Shakespeare.
3 (1h 3m 25s):
And they do a lot of Oregon Shakespeare work. And we just played, we played in, played in, played in plate. It was, it was playing. And yet then we would have these like gut punch moments and it, I had just never done anything like that. I had always been put in sort of very traditional roles and nobody usually allowed me to step outside of those boxes. And I, I did it and had such, such a good time doing it.
1 (1h 3m 53s):
That leads me to my question about beauty. Okay. So I'm obsessed with this idea of beauty as, as a, as it relates to how people that are, are how we relate to our own beauty or feeling lack thereof or so, you know, you, I would say for me, you like a stunning, stunning woman. And, and I would like to know what is your relationship like? I mean, it's a very, it's a very intense question, but I am obsessed with it. What is your relationship like to your own idea of your beauty? Because people, because what you said, really trait triggered something in me of like people usually put me in these traditional roles, which to me means like beautiful wife, a beautiful mother, a girlfriend, a blah.
1 (1h 4m 46s):
And as you age, like talk all about that because people will say like Rebecca Spence is gorgeous and I agree and I want to know what is it like? And I guess it's sort of hard if you're the fish in the water, but like tell me, what's your relationship like to the way your own looks?
3 (1h 5m 2s):
Sure. You know, I, I, I fully acknowledged that I've had duty privilege. Like I've fully acknowledged that that has been a part of my progress. And you know, it has been something that has put me in roles. Like I was never the ingenue ever. I was never the Juliet. I was always the lady capital. I was always, cause I had always had a lower register and I always looked mature. I had a very classic features. And so I was always like lady Croom, lady Capulets.
3 (1h 5m 43s):
I was always like the bitter aunt. And it's kind of, I was Jean Brody, you know, like I got to, to have these sort of larger power play or things, which I always wanted. I wanted to play more powerful than I wanted to play pretty because I knew that I was always viewed as such. And you know, it's, I know that I've been allowed into a lot of rooms because of how I look. I think maybe that's why my drive is so strong because I want to back it up.
3 (1h 6m 24s):
Like I don't, it's very important to me that I bring work ethic and integrity and talent to, to, to that so that as I age and as I grow and as this goes away or transforms and evolves that I'm leaning more on, on, on the thing behind it. And, and aging as, as someone who is it's real, like it's, it's a real ego check when you were always called in for the beautiful wife and now you're starting to be called in for, you know, other roles.
3 (1h 7m 11s):
And, and this isn't a it's I know how it sounds like I always like know and feel
1 (1h 7m 18s):
No, no, no, no. Here's the thing. You're the one, you're the first person that we've talked to that we've said like, Hey, like I remember we interviewed someone and Gina brought this up to someone and was like, you're very beautiful. Like, what's it like to, and the person could not acknowledge that they, because they were, I think, I don't know what was going on. I assume they were afraid to sound vain, but here's the thing. It doesn't sound any kind of way. What sounds, what it sounds is like, you're trying to make sense of the way the world sees you, which actually isn't about you either. It's like, and yet acknowledge the privilege.
1 (1h 8m 0s):
So you're the first woman that we've talked to that has said, yeah, like I acknowledged like this got me into rooms, but I want to back it up instead of pretending that it doesn't exist. Right. Because,
3 (1h 8m 12s):
Because for anybody to lie, I, you know, I remember being, I remember being in a room and I was like, I was like, you're beautiful. And she was like, oh, I just am fat. And I'm like, come on. You know, I was like, come on, don't do it. Like it doesn't, it's, it's, it's so insulting to people that, that, that, that, like, let's be the thing I've tried to do is truly be objective about my work and, and who I like to. So you have to be objective about, like, I know what I look like. I know what I bring in, so what else do I add to it?
3 (1h 8m 52s):
And I it's something that I will never forget because, and after that, I know when we were very young, who is doing really, really well right now, and she is, you know, a self identified fat actress and like that, that is how she works in the world. And it's, she's, she's just phenomenal. But she was the daughter of a, of a beauty queen. Like her mother was a beautiful, beautiful woman. And she was like having to grow up with, you know, under, under someone that was beautiful. She's like I had to watch watching her age was one of the most painful things I could have ever witnessed because she was so used to being the most beautiful woman in the world, in the room.
3 (1h 9m 42s):
Like that was her identity was she didn't have to do too much else because she was the most beautiful woman in the room. And when she aged and those things started to fade it, she had sort of lost her identity. And that, that conversation has stuck with me for forever. I was like, don't ever be the person that, that your exterior is the only thing you have.
2 (1h 10m 4s):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's awesome. I think it's fantastic that you acknowledge your beauty privilege, but I also acknowledge that there is a prison aspect to it too, or certainly when one is young, you know, where you can only be considered, you know, for a certain type of role, it can be just as limiting. And then if you go to that,
3 (1h 10m 28s):
Because of it, I mean, I I've been told, I lost I've lost roles where something is really, really, really excited about. And they were like, you're too, you are too classically attractive to be relatable. And I was like,
2 (1h 10m 45s):
Yeah,
3 (1h 10m 46s):
Being relatable is my jam. Right, right. What I worked so hard to do, I wouldn't be relatable. And I'm, you won't allow me out of that. And then of course, you know, I've got to sit back and I'm like, look, people have to face this kind of feedback on a completely dip. So, you know, I was like, then I mean that it sucked. And I, and I grieved that. I was like, but, but this is this industry that, and other people face that in tote for D for a myriad of different other reasons, they are told based off of how they look that they aren't right for the role. And I, I always knew that, but I was like, God, that sucks.
1 (1h 11m 26s):
And I'm thinking of like, yeah. And, and,
3 (1h 11m 31s):
And know it. And you don't want to tell anybody about it because no one, no one's going to be like, oh, that's horrible.
1 (1h 11m 37s):
Right. Right. I mean, it's this thing of you don't of course you don't want to, but I'm also just aware of like, like, I was obsessed with this whole story of Linda Evangelista who got face surgery, and then she finally showed her face and she looks fucking fine to me. Like, it's not about that. It's not about her face. It was about, it was no, no. I mean, literally it she's. I read the whole thing too. She, she calls herself deformed. She has like some fat that comes up over her bra
3 (1h 12m 13s):
Solidified. It's hard. Like, oh, that's true. Yeah. It's painful and hard. And,
1 (1h 12m 20s):
But the thing is like the, it is for me, what, what it brought forward was like from the outside, right outside, looking at Linda Evangelista, she's still one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen with her without her deformity. But it doesn't matter because she is not her identity was this model. Right. Which probably screwed her for life and also offered her privileges beyond my wildest dreams. Both are true. So I guess what it brings forward is like, everything about this journey is a combo fucking platter. You kinda have the privilege of beauty without also being in a prison.
1 (1h 13m 1s):
You cannot have the privilege of, you know, like for me, I kind of have the compassion that I have for humans. If I had not gone through what I had gone through as a child, especially an overweight child, like gum, it comes together. And I think we're so used to seeing people as, oh, that's Rebecca Spence. This is what she does. And this is how her life, it's not that way. And I think that's one of my life goals is to just show people through my writing and my work. Like this is a fucking combo platter. People like you don't get one way, like Linda Evangelista said, she feels like the most ugly person. And she acknowledged that she was a model and made millions of dollars doing it.
1 (1h 13m 42s):
So like, it's both, you're both, you're both things I give you permission. I give everyone permission to have both the prison and the privilege. I know it's not my job to do, but that's what I would wish on the world if I was running shit, which I'm not. So there we go. But anyway, that's my rant about you. I just really am focused on like asking women, especially like, what is it like, you know, especially as we get older to like change and it's a real
3 (1h 14m 10s):
Ego knock, I'm, you know, I'm not going to lie. I, I filmed something recently and I, my son went on, said, took a picture of the monitor and gave it to me. I was like, you know, I was like, oh shit. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hey, all right. Yeah. You know, and, and, and then I went, like, I went the complete opposite during like, COVID, I cut off all of my hair and I let it go gray. I'm in gray. Since I was 15, I started going gray when I was 15. And so I was like, I'm just gonna, I'm going to be the new friends as being dorm. If that's what I'm gonna do, I'm just gonna like, never like, and, and my, my manager was like, that's awesome.
3 (1h 14m 58s):
But it had to be Frances McDormand before she could do that. Like you are no
2 (1h 15m 6s):
She's, there is already a for instance,
3 (1h 15m 8s):
If you still want to work in film and television, they haven't evolved to that yet. So you're going to need to kind of come back into to reality. So I still have to play the game. I still have to play the game. And, and I, I look at it and I'm like, oh, you know, and, and bless it. I just see all these, these really beautiful women shooting so much shit into their faces. And, and I just feel for them, you know, I feel cause I'm like, God, we're chasing it. He's seeing such a, this concept of please, please still find me viable, please.
3 (1h 15m 52s):
Still
2 (1h 15m 54s):
At the same time, as most of those people will tell you, they would not do anything to be 20 years old again in their minds. So you can't have it both ways you can't, you know, be so great. I mean, you can, I guess you can do whatever you want, but it's like, I wish the die is cast by the way for us and are like, it's never going to change in our lifetimes, but we, but we can at least see that it's going to change down the line. I mean, there was a time where I'm sure people thought this was absolutely never going to change, but I wish people could kind of encompass more of the idea like, oh no, no, I like who I am. As I'm older, inside and out, it's, it's easier said than done, but I want to ask you something about, so like one of the things that happened in the pandemic with theater, well, as like in a completely changed, I mean, just completely changed and in every conceivable way.
2 (1h 16m 45s):
And one thing that I hear a lot of actors and, and creative types doing now is thinking about their role post pandemic, w you know, in theater and film and television to, I guess, as carrying a lot more responsibility, it's my responsibility to see, you know, what the whole story is with inclusivity for this project and who got cast. And it's my responsibility to know the ways in which my privilege, you know, checked me in to this, to this opportunity. Do you think about that? Do you think about the ways in which you're maybe the burden of your responsibility has changed?
3 (1h 17m 27s):
Absolutely. No, it's, it's, I am part of a, of a theater company and we raise, you know, in Chicago, we've had, we have had unnecessary reckoning, a really necessary reckoning of, of who's in power, who holds, who holds the keys to the conversation who holds the keys to casting who, what kind of stories are being put out on the forefront. And I couldn't be more excited and thrilled by it.
3 (1h 18m 10s):
And I, and I know that means potentially less work for me. And that's okay. That's that's, that is okay. Like I inclusivity and diversity of the stories being told. Cause I what's interesting now is like, I have so much zero interest now and, and seeing, you know, the sort of cycles of plays that we've been fed for the last oh hundreds of years, you know, the stories of there are so many other stories to be told that I'm so hungry to hear and, and see, and it is a responsibility of all of us to step aside and create, create opportunities for, for people who, whose stories are, are, are, are rich and beautiful.
3 (1h 19m 4s):
And, and, and we learned from like, it's a gift, it's actually a gift. We are, we are gifted by buying, seeing the world through other, other people's eyes that don't look anything like us. It is
2 (1h 19m 21s):
Absolutely. Is it cha I mean, I guess the other thing is like, I answered your question, do you actually see it? No, you did. You did answer my question. There's another part to it, which is like, and is it actually changing? Is it actually happening? I mean, what I definitely hear is people are talking about it. I definitely hear that happening, social media and in person, but is that because I was part of a group that paid a lot of lip service to this, and then ultimately when it was time to make the change, they just didn't want to do it. So I had to leave that group. I don't really know. I mean, around here, the biggest regional theater, what made so many grand pronouncements, and then they opened with doubt the season, you know?
2 (1h 20m 5s):
So I'm like, but is it actually
3 (1h 20m 7s):
Changing? I mean, I think that remains to be seen. I mean, there's been a ton of change of leadership, but we still aren't completely open yet. And so people haven't been able to put on full seasons yet. So I I'm, there's been such a change over of hands in, in our larger institutions. You know, I can think of almost, I think I've stepped off. I think Goodman's about to have a, a regime change. We don't know yet what that's going to look like, but, you know, writers is looking for new people. You know, there there's been a change of hands.
3 (1h 20m 48s):
Like our job is to support, like give as much support so that these people can succeed. Like our job is to, you know, help go see plays, go see plays by new leadership, like whatever they're putting out like that, we ensure that they're successful because sadly, and this is what's gonna be interesting because the people that drive theater are, are the audience basis. And most of those people are people that are predominantly older and white and have disposable income. So the, what I'm hopeful is that there are opportunities. I, you know, we, we were talking about like new ways to expand platforms.
3 (1h 21m 31s):
Jen, you froze, froze. Yeah. She, that happens sometimes. Oh, okay. But you can still, I can still hear a part of the conversation. Yeah. I, you know, I think as if you're not on stage like that, I was just having a conversation this morning with, with my husband. I was like, I it's time for us to start going out and seeing theater and making sure that, that these new artistic directors are, are, are, are getting, you know, their audiences so that they can get, they can get their numbers up so that they can have revenues so that they can hire the people that they need to support them.
3 (1h 22m 14s):
I mean, it's, it's this big cyclical thing. And I, I see it changing, but I mean, , I don't think we have enough time out yet from the pandemic to, to really see the effects of it. I'm very hopeful and very supportive and yeah, it's making, it's making theater accessible. I know some people are talking about like, not only will we have live, but we'll also have opportunities to take place, which was so against, you know, when people feel very, very strongly about it. And I understand both sides, but you know, I, I have a friend who was like my family and, you know, central America.
3 (1h 22m 58s):
It was the first time that my extended family in central America was able to see my work, you know, because I got to film it and put it on zoom. And then they were able to buy a ticket, you know, and see it opened up these opportunities to bring in new audience members. And I was like, there's something to that. You know, there's something really special and important in that, you know, if we can, if we can open accessibility for people to be able to see these things. And if, you know, we can support our leaders in, in making sure that they have other people in the room.
2 (1h 23m 40s):
Yeah. And if it took 10, if it took, you know, a hundred hundreds of years of us being in the same place, it's going to take more than, you know, two, two years for us to be in a different place. And actually, I should mention the theater school at DePaul did finally name their new Dean and she is a woman of color. So that's exciting because when boss and I were in school, there, there was only one professor when one person of color and the whole school. And that, that was true up until like less than 10 years ago. Yeah.
3 (1h 24m 10s):
And I, and I really, I guess I say the importance of supporting them because gosh, those are really hard shoes to fill. You know, when you are, w would I want to be supportive of these people and allow them to make the mistakes that all artistic directors make and in learning this process, because they're going to be held to this standard that feels almost impossible, like all, all eyes and having to take over and sort of stitch up a lot of holes in institutions, because they're like, well, we did our job. We hired someone of color, you know, Hey, for us now you've inherited all of our internal issues and things like that.
3 (1h 24m 57s):
So I'm very, I'm very hopeful. I totally understand that it's a very daunting task. And, and so I just want to support them.
2 (1h 25m 7s):
I don't know if you followed that whole thing that happened with Dominique Morisseau and she pulled out her plate that did have an all black female creative team. It's just endless the way that these systems are entrenched inside of all of us, it's just encoded in our DNA, such that we can be in a situation like that. And it's still not working out because of whatever institutionalized racism.
3 (1h 25m 33s):
Yeah.
2 (1h 25m 35s):
We lost, we lost BAAs. Unfortunately I was expecting her to come back, but maybe she's at a co-working space. And maybe if there's a lot of people there that, you know, makes it difficult for her to, to get her internet, but it's okay. Cause we were just about to have to wrap up anyway. Thank you so much for your time.
3 (1h 25m 54s):
I, I appreciate it being one of your outliers. Like some of the didn't actually get to go to
2 (1h 25m 59s):
Theater school and it turns out you had all the same experiences as if you had maybe even better ones. Cause you didn't get saddled with the debt. Maybe if a conservatory and you, and you got to. And I think, you know, when people get to pick their own sort of educational experience, when it comes to acting and they can find what they like and leave the rest, that's, that's really valuable too, as opposed to, you know, here's this system.
3 (1h 26m 26s):
Yeah. I'm grateful because a lot of people, you know, have, have a lot of, of education in their back pocket, which I wish that I, I had, and I've tried to study some on my own. Cause sometimes, you know, my bag of tricks gets pretty tiresome, but I also feel like sometimes my ignorance has been good. Cause people are like, but that's not how the system like, oh, I don't even know that systems.
2 (1h 26m 50s):
Yeah. Yeah. So you're not burdened by the responsibility of holding it up.
3 (1h 26m 55s):
Yeah. I tried to take a Meisner class once and I near lost my mind. What are we doing? Wait, what are the rules? And yeah, I just couldn't understand it at all. None of it made sense. I finally took a viewpoints or I did. I worked on a show with somebody did viewpoints. I was like, oh, well this just is like, what I call
2 (1h 27m 16s):
This is relating to people in space. Yeah. But I, I do, I didn't actually really think about this until you just mentioned Meisner, but yeah, maybe we should think twice about the fact that all of the acting methods are, you know, developed, were developed by men. It may not be the thing that, I mean, the thing is like, it's the same thing. Doesn't work for everybody. Some people are just such Devo tase of minds or they think it's just the gospel. And some people aren't like that about the method. I think that's must be because that system worked for the way that they learn things and move the way that they express and experience things. That's not going to be true for every actor.
2 (1h 28m 1s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the cohost. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina Kalichi for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.