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Hey there, welcome to the Colour Timer

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podcast. I am your host Vincent Taylor.

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This is a podcast where we speak to professionals who work

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with colour every day to tell stories.

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Today we're going to be speaking to Aurora Gordon or her,

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that's what her paperwork says,

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but she goes by Rory Gordon. Rory is an incredibly

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accomplished colourist for film and television,

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having worked on, oh my gosh, one of my most favourite

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shows, Lovecraft Country. She's also

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an incredible painter and very experienced in working with

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HDR, which is something I want to

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chat to her about. And yeah, let's get started. Also, don't

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forget, we're going to use our little

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colour timer and try and keep the... this is 15 minutes,

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that's all we've got, so we've got to

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make it work if I remember to use it. Let's go.

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Take your seats because the hourglass is about to

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turn. We are entering the world of the micro podcast.

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Explore the craft, creativity and science

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of professionals who use colour to tell stories. Welcome to

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The Colour Timer with Vincent Taylor.

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Hello, welcome. Hi Rory, thank you for

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joining me.
- Hi, thank you for having me.

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No, it's my pleasure. We managed to get

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our schedules lined up, which is incredible.

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I know, the stars align.
- Yeah, it's true, it's true. I was

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going through, I was stalking you,

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I was going through your resume, looking

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at your site and all the rest of it. And I,

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because this is a 15 minute colour timer thing, I'm going,

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oh my God, there's so much I want to

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ask you. But anyway, that's the bed I made. All right, let

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me, before I forget, I'm going to start

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my, start my colour timer. So it's all official. And then

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I'm going to jump straight in. I was

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going to, I was going to start talking to you about your

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profession as a colourist and HDR and

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all of that. And I still want to get to that, but I want to

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jump into painting. Because you're a painter
- Yes.

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- Tell me about that.
- Well, as you know,

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we spend so many hours in a day and a

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week and a month and a year on the computer. And really,

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for me, it's just being off of a device

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feels really, really good. And what we do is...

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We're taking away, right? Like we're working

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on somebody else's material and refining it and making it

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better. So in that sense, it's a

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subtractive art. So for me to have an art that's additive,

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that like I'm starting with the medium,

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I'm the first one that adds to it. It just feels really

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good. It just really changes the way I

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think. And then also speaking of additive and subtractive,

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right? Like you're working on

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additive colour on a display and I'm working with

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subtractive colour on a piece of paper or a piece

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of canvas with paint. So I just think, and I also, I like

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to study, I really like to study and the

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type of painting I do, I'll do plain air, you know, going

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out into nature, you know, what it doesn't

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have to be nature, I do urban cityscapes too. But going

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somewhere and just sitting and thinking and

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observing or being in my art studio and just if it's an

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abstract thing and working on paint,

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I just think it makes my brain move a little slower. And I

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think that's when I start to do

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really interesting things is when I move a little slower

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and make less decisions, but really

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thoughtful ones. I really love it. So yeah, I have a

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project called Colour Time, too, where I take the

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runtimes of films and TV shows too, I'll divide them into

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60 and then I'll paint a square for each

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of those intervals of time. And then I end up with a colour

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script that goes from the beginning of

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the film to the end of the film and you can see how the

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colour changes. And then because I love

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puns, the reason I started doing this was because of an art

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show that was looking for submissions.

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And I was like, well, colour time is a funny pun. So I'll

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paint colour scripts on clocks so it will

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be colour time and you'll actually see that, you know. But

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anyway, like it really truly started as
- That is amazing

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like a pun joke. But they're really cool. Like they're

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really watching the colour move. And I've

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noticed some patterns too, like around nine o'clock and

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pretty much every like movie, TV show, whatever

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doesn't matter. And I've done some animation too. You get

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dark, like you see the palette will get

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darker. And I think it's because that story structure wise

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is the point where it's like the

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long dark night of the soul. And it's like physically the

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long dark, you know, like light

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is also the dark night of the soul right about that point

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too. So I always just kind of, I just

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think it's fun to study. So that's why. That's why...

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That's incredible. You've just blown my mind

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that that is amazing. And it's, how did you learn to paint?

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I don't know that I have any formal training in painting. I

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liked art and, you know, as a kid.

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And my partner is in animation. So they know a ton of

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concept artists and a lot of our friends are,

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you know, through the people that my

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partner has worked with in animation.

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I've watched them. And honestly, I think following people

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on Instagram and like watching,

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watching painters there, it was always something that was

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like tangential to my work. But I like,

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again, I like to study and I like to try. I have a very

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deep but narrow interest set. So like color

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and light, like these are the things that my dad's a

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jeweler. So like he works with

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- oh, wow,
- that kind of runs in the family. And we're like,

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three generations of jewelers that

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grading diamonds and like looking at light and color, like

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it's it's something that I think is

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like very, very deep in, in, you know, who we are. But I,

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you know, painting is another way to do

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that. So I am because I, you know, there's, there's, I

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could very easily, I could very easily just

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took it because I find this really fascinating, especially

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because as a wannabe painter, I just,

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I just bought, I just, I'm not joking,

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I just bought a paint by numbers cactus.

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I love that. I think it's because that's study too, right?

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Like you're studying like where,

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you know, they tell you to put the paint

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and then you look at it later and you go, wow,

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that looks really good. How can I do that on my own? And,

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you know, I love that stuff. It's awesome.

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And look for anyone who wants to look up

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Rory's website, she's got her paintings

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on her site and they're, they're great. I'm looking at them

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right now. Got, got some out here and

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they're really cool, man. Thank you.

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How big are they? How big are they?

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Small usually because when I go out,

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I take a four by little four by six

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cards, like cold pressed paper, because I like, you know, I

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like to be compact. And even when I've

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done largest, they're small. I did a calendar of unnameable

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colors a couple years ago. And even

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those are probably, I think they were nine by nine. So small.

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Wait, wait. Unnameable colors?

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Yeah, it was. So they're like, I've wanted to do another

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one because I got a lot of people were

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like, this is so cool. And I was like, really? No, I think,

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I think I have synesthesia or a form

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of synesthesia where, you know, when you when your brain is

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like, oh, I get so anyway, like a lot of

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times I get it with taste. Like, I don't know if you get

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that when you look at a vectorscope,

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I very much see different different tastes as you're kind

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of moving around in a circle. Like,

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you know, red is kind of salty, yellow is like oily and

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fatty, and then green is a bitter. And

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then depending on the shade of blue, it's tart or sweet.

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That is so cool. So the calendar I did was

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like, there was like a magenta shade for one month, and it

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was like a jar of jam that has burst on

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your floor and you will never clean it up all the way or

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something like that. So although all the

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months were like color, they were colors, but they were

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names. Not that it's not about the color,

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- it's about the experience.
- That's wonderful. I have in my

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brain, I have colors for days of the week,

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it changes sometimes. But like, like a Thursday is always a

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kind of a deep red for some reason.

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Anyway, I've got to I've got to keep going because I'm

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going to run out of time. I'm not going to

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ask you all these amazing questions. I got to ask you.

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You've worked on so many wonderful shows.

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I'll wait for your image to come back. It looks like

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there's a little dropout. This is the joy.

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This is like live TV. There you go. It's great. Because I'm

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not editing this, you know, because

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it's real, it's real time. Yeah, go for it. All right. All

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right. Let me go. Which question shall

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I ask you? Let's talk about - so you've done research on

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applied color science and practical

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color workflows. Tell me about that. What is that?

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Yeah. So...

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to me, color science is the creative of

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the big picture and color as my work as a colorist is

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creative of the micro. So it's like macro level

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systems versus micro level systems. And what I do in the

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research that I've undertaken in the color

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science world, it's all about trying to measure things,

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right? That's what I love about science

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is that it is really the trying to figure out how to

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measure things and communicate them. And when

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you're talking about color, which is not - I mean, something

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may emit certain spectra, a light source

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may be emit certain spectra, or, you know, a thing may

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absorb certain spectra. But color is context,

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color is a perceptual experience, including the viewer and

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the display, it's like such a long chain

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of places, there can be variables. And certainly with

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humans, there's like an organic element to

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it, right? So like your vision, as, as it was, when you

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were 18 years old is different than it will be

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when you're 68 years old. So knowing that the whole

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experience is ephemeral and temporary.

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I think my goal and all the different topics I've

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researched has been how to communicate how things

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are changing and describe the relationship, which is like,

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another reason I think, like calculus is

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so beautiful, for example, it's like trying to describe

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these nonlinear relationships. You know,

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our relationship. Anyway, so the specific I'm also trying

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to be like, how do I get all the things in

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the 15 minute window? I know, I know, I know the pressure's

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on. So specifically, the areas I have

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researched are HDR - and how - so my the first paper I did

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the I did was, by the way, I have not

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really no formal training in math or science. I just like,

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I love to, like I said, to study things.

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So the first paper I did was I think in 2018. And I took

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set the time we had three first season

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shows that were all in HDR, and they all use the same color

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workflow. So I what I did is we had the

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all of them had standalone HDR deliverables and SDR

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deliverables. And we had, you know,

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are obviously suite of color management. So we had the same

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the same creative part of the, you

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know, same same grades, and then our ODTs would change

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depending on the the container that we were

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delivering for. So Rec.709, P3, P3 in a

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2020 container. So I measured in SDR, the

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contrast ratio between the key side of the face and the

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fill side of the face in the SDR version

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and the HDR version. And we did very minimal trims. Really,

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this was a because, again, the

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workflow was so strong, but I wanted to see what how the

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contrast ratio would change in SDR and HDR.

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And the main conclusion that I came to was that when you

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have a transform like that, it's basically

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a math machine that takes 1 in and gives you 1 out,

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right. But depending on the content that

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you're feeding in, you're going to get a different

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relational result at the end. So if you fed a very

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low key image in that had a really dim key and a really dim

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fill, it could be that both sides of

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the face would actually get darker because remember HDR

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also depends on blacker blacks to

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get to that very, very high contrast ratio. Yeah, you know,

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if you had a really high contrast image,

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the key side of the face could increase, and then the fill

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side of the face could decrease. And so

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you would end up with overall higher contrast in HDR. And

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then there I would find some examples,

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really, really bright examples, like I had one was The Tick

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with a character flying through the sky.

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So both sides very, very bright. And then in the HDR

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version, both sides of the face were

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were brighter. So that that the most interesting

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observation was that, yeah, guess what, depending

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on the content that you're putting into your your transform

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or your LUT, if you're working,

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you know, everything concatenated, a LUT based workflow.

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And this is a log based workflow,

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by the way, it, it, the content that you're putting in is

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going to change the effect of the

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color science decisions. So it is worth it to make bespoke

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decisions on a show by show basis.

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That's right. I tried to run through this as fast...
- And my brain's

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already going, yeah, but what about

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what about what about this is the thing I'm quite enjoying.

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When I first started this idea of just

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having this 15 minute chat, I went, is this is this silly?

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Is this gonna, but I quite like it,

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because it keeps it keeps you going. All right, let's just,

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you know, and who's got time,

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who's got time to listen anyway? All right, all right, I'm

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gonna get how much I've got, I've got

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time for a couple more questions. What do I got? 
- Good. I'm having fun, this is fun.

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get? What do I get? Also, so anyway,

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these articles got got published in the SMPTE journal. So I

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guess, I guess my question is,

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tell me about SMPTE. Who's that for? What is that? Yeah,

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that's the Society of Motion Picture and

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Television Engineers. And that is, they do

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conferences, let's see, I think I have an

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mission statement, I thought you might ask, "The mission

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of the journal is to drive the quality and

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evolution of motion picture television and professional

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media through our global society

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of technologists, developers and creatives, by setting

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industry standards, providing relevant

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education and fostering and engaged membership communities."

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So the big thing that they do is

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standards. So you know, standards, in terms of file

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formats, in terms of display, like it

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everything, when you think of SMPTE bars, those originate

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from the Society of Motion Picture and

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Television Engineers. And the big thing is, for me anyway,

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about the journal is a peer review

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element of it. It's not, you know, when you when you

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publish a book, or you publish an article on

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a blog or something, it doesn't need to go through peer

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review. When you publish with a journal, it

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has to go through a committee of people that all say like,

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this methodology makes sense, this person,

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you know, their their controls are all in the right place.

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And that's very, very attractive to me,

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is the opportunity to be in a peer review situation and

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have community because what we do

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as colorists, we're so isolated. And even I think post each

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post facility can be isolated, and you

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get like, well, this is the way we do it, because this is

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the way we do it in this facility. But I

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really enjoy being a part of organizations like that, where

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you're, you know, you're, you're

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looking at like the, like I said, the macro creativity of

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the macro versus creativity of the

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micro. And people are looking at like, okay, well, what

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makes the sense the same sense? And I think

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it's really helpful, especially considering how many

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different display options people have, how

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many and sheer number of surrounds in which people watch

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things. I mean, people watch things on the

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Metro on their phones. And, you know, ultimately, they find

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a way to view it and see it. And, you

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know, there's, there's, there's so many different ways an

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image can look in an end user situation,

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I think being aware of the process, the engineering to get

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it to them, the psychophysics of the

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displays, it's all

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- Psychophysics. 
- Yeah.

329
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That's such a great phrase.

330
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You know, because it is, like I said, you know, colors of

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perceptual experience, it's not just,

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it's not just one measurable, you know, Pantone value,

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it's, it's the combination of the surround

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person, the display, the choices made, you know, everything

335
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from the camera to the lensing.

336
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Because, you know, lensing, that's a huge, that has a huge

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impact on coloring as well. I think

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about that all the time, like, when we're when we're

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matching, we don't, you know, like, we don't

340
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know, we don't know which lens and a set is a

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DP's favorite. So, you know, we're

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matching everything, take out all the seams, but

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like, that's a, that's a huge critical

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choice, like, of like, which lens in that set was that DP's

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favorite. I mean, you know, they'll

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travel as a, as a group and obviously, similar optical

347
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qualities, like for, for a whole lens

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package, but, you know, just this tiny choices, they just

349
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ripple so far out downstream. And

350
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every time I have clients that are like, they get nervous

351
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because they see it in the color bay,

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and it's like, oh, that's beautiful, but it looks a little

353
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different on the mix stage, you have to,

354
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I think my ... working with SMPTE and being

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aware of the standard - what I always say is

356
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like, it's standards are important, because it's important

357
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to know where the standard is that you

358
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deviate from. So when we calibrate everything to standards

359
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in the color bay, but then that way,

360
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you know, like, things could deviate in a lot of different

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directions. But we know that we started

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from the ground, the ideal point at which

363
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everybody else is measuring things. So yeah,

364
00:19:25,764 --> 00:19:28,433
it is going to deviate in the real world, but it's going to

365
00:19:28,433 --> 00:19:30,469
deviate in a lot of different directions.

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And what we're going to do is we're going to start where we

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know the deviations also begin from.

368
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So it ... it amazed me. And as you, because I

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realized my, my sand time is right now.

370
00:19:41,847 --> 00:19:46,351
Oh, I'm breaking the rules. No, but, but it made me think,

371
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because the idea behind this podcast

372
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was to do like a 12-part first season. And if you, if

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you're up for it, can you be on season two?

374
00:19:55,527 --> 00:19:57,796
Because there's so much more, there's so much more I want
- Well sure!

375
00:19:57,796 --> 00:20:00,032
to, I haven't even started and, and I,

376
00:20:00,032 --> 00:20:01,967
and I would love to love to keep going.

377
00:20:01,967 --> 00:20:03,835
There's more, I wanted to speak to you

378
00:20:03,835 --> 00:20:07,406
about HDR specifically and about that world as well.
- Yeah, yeah.

379
00:20:07,406 --> 00:20:08,473
Yeah. Another world with a lot of

380
00:20:09,208 --> 00:20:13,478
decisions. Rory, thank you so much. Thank you. It was

381
00:20:13,478 --> 00:20:15,380
amazing. It was really, really fantastic.
- Thank you, Vincent.

382
00:20:15,380 --> 00:20:18,884
That's such a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. 
- Thank you for

383
00:20:18,884 --> 00:20:20,852
joining me. I've started doing these,

384
00:20:20,852 --> 00:20:25,557
uh, I was originally when I started doing the interviews, I

385
00:20:25,557 --> 00:20:27,826
started to try and introduce the

386
00:20:27,826 --> 00:20:31,897
guest, speak to the guest, do the thank yous, do it all in

387
00:20:31,897 --> 00:20:33,732
the one thing, but my, my brain,

388
00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:36,034
it just doesn't work. So, so that's why I'm doing these

389
00:20:36,034 --> 00:20:37,703
bookends before and after the interview.

390
00:20:38,437 --> 00:20:42,975
Uh, but, uh, thank you to Rory for coming on board. And,

391
00:20:42,975 --> 00:20:44,209
and I think, yeah, if we, if we end

392
00:20:44,209 --> 00:20:47,379
up doing a season two, uh, I'll definitely have to get her

393
00:20:47,379 --> 00:20:48,580
back because there's so much more I want

394
00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:53,085
to speak to her about. Um, uh, thank you to Mixing Light,

395
00:20:53,085 --> 00:20:55,254
uh, for, for, for hosting the show and,

396
00:20:55,254 --> 00:20:59,124
and having me on board. Uh, if you're listening to this on

397
00:20:59,124 --> 00:21:00,359
the Mixing Light site, you already know

398
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,562
what they do, but if you don't check them out, look,

399
00:21:03,562 --> 00:21:04,296
they're, they're, they're all things kind

400
00:21:04,529 --> 00:21:08,200
of to help you as a, as a colorist and, and everything

401
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,103
from, uh, the software into talking

402
00:21:11,103 --> 00:21:14,172
about color. Uh, and thank you to FilmLight, my friend of

403
00:21:14,172 --> 00:21:16,275
the show. Thank you. And Kayla,

404
00:21:16,275 --> 00:21:19,478
my producer, uh, and thank you for listening, like,

405
00:21:19,478 --> 00:21:20,646
subscribe to all that kind of stuff.

406
00:21:20,946 --> 00:21:22,547
All right. Cheers. See ya.

407
00:21:23,281 --> 00:21:28,120
The Color Timer, a micro podcast experience.