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Welcome to ChannelWaves, the podcast where channel

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leaders share success strategies, best practices and emerging

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trends, brought to you by StructuredWeb.

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Here's your host, Stephen Kellam.

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Welcome, everybody, to ChannelWaves, StructuredWeb's

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view into everything channel.

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I'm your host, Stephen Kellam, and very excited

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to have Tina Gravel joining me today.

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Welcome, Tina.

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Hi, Steven.

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How are you?

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I'm doing really well. How are you?

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I'm good, thanks.

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Do I have any lipstick on my teeth?

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No, you don't have any lipstick, by the way.

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We're going to leave that in, folks.

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Tina and I, it's been a minute, but we've done this.

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I think your teeth look great.

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Tina and I have done several of these,

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so hang on, this should be interesting.

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It's no holds barred.

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She'll say whatever she wants.

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We'll make it...

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So Tina Gravel, Vice President, Global

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Head of Channel Sales at Quantexa.

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That's it, that's the name.

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Headquartered in the UK, not as well known

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here in North America, but coming up fast.

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We're a unicorn company.

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With our recent round of funding, we are now

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considered a unicorn, billion dollar high growth firm.

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Our job and our lot in life and all of that.

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We have a platform which enables decision making,

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takes data and transforms decision making with data.

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We wouldn't be anywhere without data, and in

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this world, it just keeps proliferating and proliferating.

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But the issue is the quality of

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the data and the questions you ask.

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And Quantexa is the best company I've ever

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seen at being able to help with that, to

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help customers protect and optimize and grow with their

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information and then third party information, like from one

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of our clients, like Moody's and so forth.

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I asked her to join me for a couple of reasons.

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One is she's in sales, and I interview a lot of people

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or work with a lot of people that are in marketing.

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You're in sales and there's this whole thing going on

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between sales and marketing, so that was one thing.

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And two, your company is very interesting

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in what it does with data.

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So sales and marketing, they have to work together.

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I believe, everybody's talking about it in the channel.

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From your perspective, why

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is it so important that sales and marketing

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work together in the channel today?

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Well, in the olden days, five years ago, I was

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about to say, you have to define that, don't you?

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It used to be your funnel was your

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funnel, and your silos were your silos, and

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everything sort of worked that way.

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Things would come into the funnel that marketing

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would generate, you'd know, what to do, and

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then sales would pick it up and sell. Right?

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And you didn't have to be quite as aligned if you

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weren't sharing themes of ideas and, well, bad on you.

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But I look at it now, it's no longer the

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funnel, it's what people call the lifecycle of a customer.

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Some say flywheel.

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I like lifecycle better than flywheel.

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I do, too.

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I'll start the flywheel.

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I like lifecycle.

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I do, too, because flywheel to me is like

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it seems like it moves, and I'm not sure

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it moves it quite as fast as that.

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But without this continual discussion, shared goals,

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you're going to have inconsistent responses, you're

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going to have mistakes made, you're going

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to have duplication of data, you're going

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to have problems with customer handoffs.

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It's just no ROI or bad ROI or downright fictional

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ROI, as it could be said for many companies.

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So with that, I would say that those

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are the biggest challenges with being not aligned.

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When I talk about what are the

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biggest pitfalls or whatever, what can happen,

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I can think back of a discussion.

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And by the way, this wasn't at a company I was at.

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So I don't want anybody that hears this running around

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upset that I'm talking about somewhere I used to work.

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I was at a meeting, a big meeting with

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lots of companies and lots of heads of channels

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and alliances, and the overriding sort of discussion and

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the controversy that kept coming up was all about

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attribution of leads, because if you're both support organizations,

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I.e. Channel and Marketing, to me are the

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support organizations of sales. Right.

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You're both looking for who gets credit, right, and

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when, and then you have the direct salespeople, many

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of which have large egos that want to take

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credit for the whole thing and don't want marketing

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or channels to be represented at all.

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It becomes a real nightmare and lots of fighting,

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and some of these companies aren't that big.

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Come on.

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You should not be fighting with each other.

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You've got the world to fight with.

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Come on.

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So that's on my mind today, is

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that we only have so many leads.

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We have to do all this work up front because we

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know the customer is looking very early in the sales cycle.

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Now on his own or her own.

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They don't want to be talked to right away.

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They're going to do 70% on their own. Right?

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We know this.

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There are facts that show this.

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Well, if you're getting paid by the lead internally

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or you're getting credit somehow by the lead internally,

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how do you decide who gets credit for it?

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Very interesting problem.

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And by the way, I don't have an

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answer for this as great as I am.

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Well, here's my answer.

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I run both sales and marketing where I

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am, so I cannot think of a deal.

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If I have done attribution correctly, and I take it

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far back, we can talk about your sales cycle.

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I'll talk about my sales six months easy, right? Right.

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Probably years of building a relationship.

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If I really dig into it, I can find

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sales and marketing's footprints and handprints across almost.

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Of course you can.

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It's got to be able. Sure.

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You have to have metrics, right?

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What is an SQL?

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It's so funny, right?

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And how do we work it all back?

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Maybe it's a maturation thing.

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When I get older, as I've gotten older,

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I'm more interested in being a point guard

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and distributing and rising the tide versus just

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what I assume that if something does well

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that I've influenced, it's good for everything.

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Maybe it's an ego thing, but actually, I don't know.

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Is it?

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Well, to be fair, it is.

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To be fair, I think it goes well beyond

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the ego when you're getting paid for it.

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Yeah, and we have had that issue in

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marketing and sales and channel in many places that I've

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worked in, where we've had a comp plan like that.

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I haven't always had a fight on

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my hands, but that's what it is.

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You and I coming from a different, let's say, generation

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than the folks that are just coming in now.

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Yeah, I think our egos are different at

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this point in life, I really do.

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And you're right about the rising tide.

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If everybody benefits, everybody will rise

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and it's better for the whole.

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But when you have companies that are trying to

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make sense out of how do we pay someone

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in channel, how do we pay someone and how

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do we give MDF, how do we apply that? Right.

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Then you get into these issues.

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And that's where I said I don't have an answer

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because if I were very simplistic and I'm not saying

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you're simplistic, but I could say yes, everybody's involved in

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it and all over the place, right.

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But when somebody doesn't pick up the phone anymore or

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deletes your email and they're looking at you at a

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white paper on an obscure site and you don't always

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get the cookie or the tracking anymore. Right.

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If they say no, I'm not willing to

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be to let you know who I am.

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How do you know that the salesperson didn't

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send them to that website or the marketing

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person didn't send them or it's very difficult.

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And I would say one of the reasons that

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I wanted to I was offered this job and

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this company is fantastic and so I took it.

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But my real desire was to do CRO work

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because I think that marketing, sales and channels, if

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done right together, could be game changing.

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But I haven't seen a company do it right

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yet and so I'm very desirous of trying and

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it wouldn't be without difficulty to get them all

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working together and to get them working together well.

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But I think I've got two of them already

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figured out and that is the alignment with channels

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and channel sales and sales, direct sales. Okay.

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To me, I think I know how to do that, right.

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And then to be able to have the challenge of bringing

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in marketing the same way and having them all be on

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one team, that to me, sounds like fun and sounds like

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a way you could really make the world a better place

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if you could figure out how to do that better.

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I don't know companies that do it really well.

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You may because of what you're

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doing but I haven't seen it.

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So you tell me.

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I think it's pretty broken but I

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see it moving in that direction.

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I think once again it starts at senior

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leadership and to listen and being willing to

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adapt but then also maintaining some consistency from

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my perspective and then realizing if something's broke,

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fix it, but give it some time.

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I do see salespeople starting to

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understand that marketing isn't a competitor.

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It is in their hip pocket.

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This is what they need and the easier a marketer makes it

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to get to them to do that the better it is.

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Look, I think it's not only the comp

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plan but it's the culture of an organization

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and how people are praised and rewarded.

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It even goes down to recognition.

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So many marketers that I know, look, they just

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want to know that they got an assist.

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This is like hockey, right?

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Scoring a goal is great but Wayne Gretzky

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is just as well known for his assist. Right?

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As a matter of fact, if you took all of Wayne

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Gretzky's goals away he would still be the greatest scorer in

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the history of the NHL just on his assist.

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And he's the greatest hockey player ever.

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I'm sure somebody listening might disagree.

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I'd argue with that all day long

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and I'm not even a hockey fan.

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So to me that assist is becoming so important.

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I think the issue is we all have this

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technology out there and we've been able to track

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it so that you can get that marketing assist. Right.

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And I think it's all starting to get there so

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you can start to do that a little bit better.

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Absolutely.

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It's one system by the way

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for PRM, for sales forecasting.

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And I think Salesforce wants to be the system.

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I'm not sure it is.

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I'm not going to get into that controversy.

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But that's the other issue. Okay.

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If your systems are in silos,

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I don't care about your organization.

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If you can't share information easily then

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to me there's a lot missing.

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If you don't have the automation and the right process.

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You got to have the right process before

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you automate or yeah, before you automate.

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Some would say that's backward.

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Let's automate and then fix the process.

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I suppose you could do it that way.

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But I don't know.

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I've always been process first.

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I'm an automation guy.

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I've been selling some form of automation for 15 years.

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Me too.

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And I totally agree with you. Right.

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Don't automate for automate sake.

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Automation sake.

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I think you can do it on the same time.

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But if you got a bad program and a bad

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system or what I've seen is you have automation over

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here in sales, you have automation over here in marketing.

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You have sales operations here.

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And once it's siloed, I got to tell you, in

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today's world with APIs and integrations, it's getting better.

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But there's really not much excuse for not sharing.

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The only reason not to share is internal conflict

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and lack of alignment from an internal perspective.

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And that would go to senior leadership on what are

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we measuring and rewarding and what are our KPIs and OKRs, right?

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Right.

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Well, come on.

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Let's also remember one thing and I don't

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have my direct sales hat on right now.

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I have my channel hat on now and this isn't about

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Quantexa or the company that I just left after seven years.

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But if you do not have at the

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top recognition that the indirect channel is critical

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to the business, force-multiplier, leverage, all of

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that, you'll never get it either.

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It's a constant struggle.

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I am on a number of groups where women and it's

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mostly women's groups now at this point in my career.

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But I hear them talking about the disrespect that

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their channel is facing and their channel team faces

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and it's because and by the way, I was

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there for 15 years because all I did was

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direct and I thought the channel was a joke.

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I thought they were ambulance chasers.

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And I think marketing has a

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similar disrespect in many cases.

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Because if you aren't giving leads on a regular

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basis to the kings of the company direct sellers,

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you don't matter who are the first people to

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get laid off, by the way, in companies?

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Okay, there's redundancy, but then when they have

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to cut hard, where do they go?

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They go to marketing and channel and channel. Okay.

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Do you think they're doing in channel right now? Yes.

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Well, yeah, I've seen it.

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I have seen it with my own worse than the other side?

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Yes, worse than the direct.

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Because when you get bare bones, you still need some

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sellers, close business, but the rest of them are just

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sort of nice to have in companies minds.

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And that has to change.

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That has to change.

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That whole idea at the top has to change because

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if you are a business, a going concern and you

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don't have that indirect channel wired down and you don't

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have marketing wired properly, you're going to suffer and you

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will never get beyond the crisis you're in, right.

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It's just never going to work.

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So get yourself recapitalized.

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Put your organizations back in place.

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They don't have to be big.

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They could be one, two people, but you've

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got to have them because if you don't,

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you're going to suffer later on.

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You may not suffer today.

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You're already suffering.

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You have to lay all these people off, right?

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You're suffering. I get it.

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But it is a very short term

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fix and then you'll be in trouble. You won't grow.

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You just won't grow.

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So there you have it.

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That's my advice for those in crisis is that I understand

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you have to cut off the arm in order to save

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the body, but you better get a prosthesis pretty quickly.

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Okay, I was going to ask you to wrap this up with

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one last thought, but is that going to be your last?

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That sounds very boring.

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I'm going to give you an opportunity to

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do a different analogy on that one, but

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I'm going to leave that one in.

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Okay, let's see.

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Get yourself annual, regular cadence with marketing

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if you're in sales and whether if

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you're in a regional sales role.

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Get yourself with the regional a field marketing

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team, but also meet with the head of

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marketing so that you're all in sync.

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And if you can do it in person, all the better.

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I was just at an SKO this week and I will

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tell you that COVID did us a disservice for so long,

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it felt like you're breathing again because you're in person again.

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It's just so different.

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Yes, we do it on Zoom, but we don't do it the same way.

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There's just something important about seeing and

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being with the person and not just

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the head on a video. Get together.

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If you do it in person, great.

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Start talking.

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Share your goals.

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Make sure your goals are in sync.

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Try to beat those silos down.

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All right, Tina, thanks for joining us today.

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Listeners, thanks for joining us.

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We are going to do a part two and we're

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going to get deeper into technology and we are going

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to chat about chat GPT and AI, AI in general.

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And then we're going to talk about

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what it really means for the channel.

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Thank you for joining us again.

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What's the best way for people to reach you?

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I'm on LinkedIn and my email address is Tinagravel.

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All one continuous word there, Tinagravel@quantexa.com.

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I also have a website, Tinagravel.com, if you're just looking

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for me and nothing to do with my business.

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All right, thank you once again. Thank you.

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Thank you, listeners.

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Viewers, have a great day.

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Thank you.