We're very much about getting incentives aligned. Because when you align incentives between two parties, things just like things become magical. It's why our pricing works.

Hi, everyone. I'm joined today by Rick, the VP of growth at RevenueCat. RevenueCat is a tool that I used use back in the day, it helps you with mobile subscriptions, which is really, really annoying and complicated. Rick talks about their unusual approach to sales, and he talks about why conferences and being in person has led to a huge amount of growth for them. I read this article that you'd written about, like it's kind of a recruitment article in a sense as you were trying to, I mean, was.

Right? Like, you're trying to recruit people and see I called

it a Progyn horse. Right? Like, dress it up as an article about how we do a thing, but secretly, I'm just sneaking in a bunch of job openings.

I mean, more people should do that because it's it it hooked me. So I was like, you've written all about how revenue cut sales org works, and it's very interesting. And I think it's quite different And definitely not what most sales orgs are doing. So and there's a lot of detail. So I kind of wanted you wanted to bring you on and ask you about this and hear how you do sales at RevenueCut.

I mean, in in the article, I do sales. Right? I put it I put it in quotation marks Yeah. Which which I think is maybe even a little fair. Because our our sales team is not our sales team is not gold by doing sales, or like that's not the measure of success.

Right? The the mission for that team, and I can talk about what the team looks like in a little bit, the mission is to help people evaluate RevenueCat wherever they are, right, or however they want to evaluate. Because RevenueCat is sure, it's a developer tooling, but it's also, like, a platform used by marketers and product people, even support reps. Yeah. So evaluating RevenueCat could be a lot of things.

It can be a developer that wants to poke around. It can be like a CEO that wants a business case presented. That team and and we as RevenueCat, we don't we don't care how how you want that to happen. We'll help you. Right?

That's the that's the purpose of that team, help you evaluate RevenueCat. And then if what you want to do is buy revenue cut, we're gonna help you buy revenue cut. And doesn't really matter how you do that. Right? You wanna swipe a credit card?

Sure. You wanna sign a contract? Sure. You wanna sign a contract and and pay it monthly? It's fine by us.

Right? However you wanna buy, however you wanna pay, it's our job to, like, meet you where you are rather than the other way around, which is, I think, by itself is already, like,

a little unusual. You're not trying to force people into different boxes, I guess.

The easiest way to explain it is, like, in in almost every single sales org, you have a quota, and that quota is how much, like, ACV or account value do you manage to close in a year. That's that's literally your job. And then what happens and I've seen this happen in other like, I've worked in in DevTooling for a bit. I've seen this happen in other in other companies. What happens is that the developer that wants to evaluate by themselves.

Right? They just wanna poke around in the product, and they're probably best off swiping a credit card and just getting going Because the sales org is incentivized to get as many contracts signed for as much money as possible, what they're gonna do is they're gonna, like, swoop in, and they're gonna, like, try and get you onto a contract that you don't need or or don't want. And just by, like, incentivizing your people differently, and then making it very, very clear what the goal of the sales organization is, you hopefully prevent that. And, you know, that's a trade off because what'll happen is you'll sign fewer contracts, but the contract you sign will be better and you'll have happier customers overall.

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My name is Will Stewart, co founder and CEO of Northlink. We're a self-service developer platform and we help teams deploy their most critical workloads into their VPC. And you guys use WorkOS? We use WorkOS for our SAML and OIDC integrations. It's a pretty exceptional product.

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WorkOS helps your dev tools start selling to enterprises much faster, and they're trusted by dev tools like Cursor, Fowl, and Vercel. If you use their user management or you can get your first million monthly active users completely free. And so so salespeople do not have targets, do not make commission?

They they have targets. The targets are just not tied to getting a signed contract. Because that's the incent like, that's the misalignment of incentives. Right? And we're we're we're very much about getting incentives aligned because when you align incentives between two parties, things just like things become magical.

It's it's why our pricing works. Right? It's actually the same rationale where if we just charge you for the money you make, then us helping you make more money makes you more money, and then we make more money, and then you get this, like, nice little nice little synergy. And then, yeah, the sales org is is gold on getting people to evaluate everything successfully and then using it in whatever way makes makes sense for them.

Interesting. So it's more like sorry. Just to because I feel like the devil will be the detail for this. I can imagine, like, say people like, if say someone signed up and had a call with me, and then I was like, you know, just go swipe your credit card.

Mhmm.

Play around whenever you're ready. Do that.

Yeah. We track that.

It that would be accrued to me essentially because I've been helpful to them. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. And then if they went on to become, like, massive deal, it's like, great.

Like, that's

Yeah. It's and yeah. And similarly, when people do sign contracts because it's in the article, but, like, real quick for people that haven't read it, first, read it. And then second, apply for a job. And then third third, we have, like, we have two sales engineers and and and actually somebody from our support org trialing as a sales engineer.

So, like, we have two and a half sales engineers, and we have one strategic account manager. And then we're looking to hire a bunch more of those, and then there's me, and I kinda just, like, hop in and do whatever. The strategic account manager and all the account managers were were looking to hire still, they're not just getting the customer on board or getting a contract signed whenever that's, like, the the best thing to do, they're actually responsible for that customer as long as they're on revenue cut. So when a renewal happens or, you know, conversations about expansions or people wanna, like, negotiate prices or whatever. Right?

All of that's gonna be in the same rep throughout all of it, which means that and again, you know, you wanna try and get the incentives to to match up. If I sell somebody or I oversell somebody, then I'm actually on the hook for the conversation that happens afterwards. And I think by and large, we hire well, so that's not a thing I would be worried about regardless. But it's just nice to to be able to tell people that, you know, the person that you signed that contract with is gonna be the person you talk to again half a year from now or a year from now.

Yeah. And I think, like, that it makes sense that, like, just like incentives do dictate behavior on a big scale, I guess, like, when, you know, people you can hire the best people, but if you put them if you stack the incentives towards them doing something, then they're gonna do it, I think.

Yeah. And and, you know, we we talked about this off mic a little bit, but I was at at other dev tool companies before. And, also, with this type of, like, hybrid PLG or a product like Growth Motion where a lot of people just self serve, but also you have some sold customers. And we made the the horrible mistake of just, like actually, at some point, we decided to comp reps on new contracts, not even the value of the contract, but the amount of contracts. And what happened is that, actually, people successfully, like, swiping a credit card on self serve slowly went down, and then there were contracts slow slowly went up.

But the total amount of money we were making wasn't moving all that much. It was like, no. It didn't take us very long to figure out what was happening, but that's that's what happens. Right? That's what happens.

I

think I think it's hard for a lot of developers to understand this because their culture of development is so collaborative and so kind of it it's very like principled in like in some ways, especially around like doing kind of like the quote unquote right thing. And not not in like a just like people care a lot about like the kind of the truth and stuff. And this is not this this sounds like I'm doing a massive knock. But like when I worked in sales, a lot of there are, like, a a number of people, like, in any org any bigger organization who are a lot more money driven than most people can probably imagine, I think. You do you think this is fair?

Like and it's like you can quite easily create a thing where, like, people really do compete just to, like, put numbers on the board, meet the incentive. It's like a game. And so if you stack that game in a certain way, people are gonna play the game.

Yeah. Yeah. Sure. But there's, like regardless of, like, the ethics of of of of operating that way or being, like, a long term good for the business, it just doesn't work for most dev tool type companies. We talked before a little bit, again, off, like, about the the idea of the compelling event, right, where if what you're selling is replacing something that a developer has already built themselves.

Right? So any type of infrastructure. I used to do this with, like, CICD, but for revenue cap, it's monetization infrastructure. Actually, what it is doesn't really matter. You've already built this yourself.

Right? Or your teams built this. You've invested a lot of, like, blood, sweat, and tears in the thing. By and large, it's working. Then a company comes along and says, I have a better thing for you.

It's like, if it if it ain't if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it. Right? So by and large, it's it's very, very difficult to get people that already built something to to replace that with with something with something new. And then what you're looking for is a compelling event, and a compelling event is a reason why even though I don't wanna touch it, I'm gonna touch it now. And first compelling event is when something's broken, that's always a good one.

So I don't want to replace my in app monetization stack, but it doesn't work. Or I need to do something to my in app monetization stack, but the person that built it left. That's always like a good one if you've built everything yourself. Those are the moments that you then come to, like, RevenueCat or whatever and and are open to having a conversation about those alternatives. But that companion event is like we, as a revenue cut, don't control when your in app monetization infrastructure breaks.

What we can do is we can make sure that whenever that happens, you know who we are, you trust us, and and you you reach out. Those are the things we can do. And for that to work, you you have to think really, really long term because, like, your your stuff's not gonna break every month. Probably, it's not gonna break every year. Like, these are black swan events that happen once every three or four years that there's, like, a compelling event, now I have to do something.

So you're kind of conditioned as an org to talk to these big prospective customers year in, year out on very small things. Be very, very consultative. Right? Help them wherever you can because then when the thing breaks, then they come in, then the time is right, and and you switch stuff up. That requires a certain type of mentality because it also means that if I'm that rep, I'm having a conversation with, in our case, a big app, that might not pay off until, like, two years or three years down the road.

So if I'm, like, overly focused on closing the deal, getting the paper signed at any cost, then then I'm not gonna be able to maintain that relationship. And actually, when it matters, I'm not gonna be able to close the deal.

Yeah. And I think you've you're also telling me about, like, this how about speed and and and kind of training people to react to compelling events.

One of my day one tricks to hit the ground running in a place is to, like, figure out what these compelling events are and and map them out properly. And then because in revenue cut, and and actually in in most places I've worked at, I run marketing and I run sales and I run customer success and do a lot of stuff with the compelling events. So we build ginormous demand gen efforts around compelling events so that when they happen, we make sure that there's, like, a trail of breadcrumbs that leads you to revenue cut. And, like a very practical example is that if you're in mobile, Google and Apple do their very best to create compelling events for us by just changing stuff. And Google has the the Play Billing Library, which is if you wanna sell stuff on Android or on on Google Play, to be precise, you need to implement the Google Play Billing Library.

They release a new one every year and they deprecate one every year, which means that whatever you've built, at the at the bare minimum, once every two years, you're going in and you're changing a bunch of stuff. And I think, like, three years ago, maybe four years ago, they launched Google Play Billing Library five. So they went from four to five and completely changed how, like, the taxonomy of what a subscription is. Right? And and most of these versions are, like, minor changes, and then suddenly they were like, oh, we changed everything dramatically.

And that was like a panic moment for a lot of apps. And and actually when the panic set in was like a year later when they figured out that, hey, wait a minute, like the thing we're using is gonna be deprecated in like a month, and everybody's used to these versions being like relatively minor, and it suddenly turned out that everything was gonna break. And what we did and what we still do, and and you can check this, if if you Google the Google Play Billing Library version, like Google Play Billing Library version numbers, for the last couple of versions, after Google's content, I'm the first hit. Because as they are presenting about the Play Billing Library, I'm literally writing a blog post about if you're making the migration, this is what you need to know. Because then what what we can see on our end is, hey, this app is looking in the Google Play billing library transition stuff.

Right? So that's they're thinking about that compelling event. Now is a good time to reach out and and tell them that we can help out. And actually for Google Play Billing Library five, that was such a huge change for most apps that we literally just, for a bunch of non customers, hopped on calls with their engineering teams to help them move from billing library four to five, not to RevenueCat, from four to five. Because we knew that a bunch of them were so late that the decision making process in in companies wasn't gonna allow them to move to RevenueCat.

We're like, okay. In service of the relationship, right, and to to make sure that they know who we are, that they trust us. Right? They value our expertise. We literally had calls with giant apps to to help their team make the transition to Play Billing Library five rather than to RevenueCat.

And a bunch of those apps since have, when another compelling event happened, come to us and then moved over.

That's amazing. I think our compelling event when we started using RevenueCat when I worked at a mobile startup was was just trying I think we were trying to implement billing. Like, we were in we were free for ages, and then we were like, okay. Let's put in a paywall. And then we were, like, trying to ship it.

And it was like, I wasn't implementing it, but my colleague was. And it was, like, just way more complicated. And it was like the founders were really antsy to get it out fast, understandably. And and it was like, can we can we use RevenueCat? If we if we can, can we just release, like, next week instead of, like, in a month or something?

Yeah. Something because it was so complex, I remember.

Yeah. But that's that's that's honestly, at this point, I think we're closing in on 50% of new subscription apps worldwide launched with RevenueCat. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

No. It's it's bonkers. I was run I was looking at the numbers today. 20% of all the money being made by subscription apps in the app stores goes through RevenueCat worldwide.

Wow. And I'm guessing a lot of that is just in, like, some small amount of apps, like, that just hoover up ton like, I guess, like Spotify and stuff probably.

Well, it's also, like, we're in 30% of those apps. Right? We're doing 20% of the revenue, and we're 30% of the apps. So, actually, we skew a little under the average, not so much because smaller apps use revenue cut and bigger apps don't. It's because new apps use revenue cut, and it takes them a very, very long time to become big apps.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So that's like it's it's it's that's just a it's a matter of time. But we have this mention tracking stuff set up so that when people talk on Reddit or LinkedIn or or Twitter or whatever, talk about revenue cap, we pick that up. And it's really funny to see, like, how over the years, those conversations have switched to people arguing why they're not choosing RevenueCat. Right?

Like, you have to explain you have to explain why you're not using RevenueCat, which is like that's a pretty that's a pretty good position. It's a pretty good position to be in. But that's like net new apps. And when it's net new apps, somebody's building something new, the person that makes that decision is is 99 times out of a 100 is the developer, and the product sells itself is a little cheesy, but it's also kinda true. Right?

We're not. We don't even we're not actually helping them evaluate or even selling to them. Nine times out of 10, they'll just swipe a credit card. We literally have, like, top 100 grossing apps in the world that just swipe a credit card because that's how they got started.

Like, if someone's getting started with a developer tool and they're looking at, like, marketing stuff. Mhmm. Do do you think from the experiences you've had with RevenueCat, like, what would you be saying to people at the beginning of the

Oh. Kind of journey. Go go to customers. Right? So I've been a revenue cat, like, three and a half years now.

And when when I came in, one of the first things I did was I went to the the sales team and I told them, like, okay. Tell me what your biggest problem is, and I'm gonna try and fix it. They said, well, we get into these conversations with big apps because, like, the product team wants something, and then there's a developer in the corner just, like, shaking their head going, no. We'll do that ourselves. That's actually the position we were in, like, three and a half years ago.

And we went on, like, a pretty deliberate hearts and minds campaign. Because if you if you trace back, if you check the calendars, you'll see that around that time, we started sponsoring and going to every single mobile development event pretty much anywhere in the world. Like, from from doing one or two a year, we went to doing 30. And that's not because conferences and events are a great place to like pitch your stuff, but it's a very, very, very good place to learn a ton about who you're doing it for, and that's just gonna make you better at whatever your job in the org is. Right?

Like, actually, everybody should do that in inside your company. And it's gonna help you understand those people more, and it's gonna build a ton of, like, trust trust, visibility, and it kinda humanizes you, which helps. Right? Like, when people know that you're not just a tool, you're a bunch of, like, real human human people because you've seen them there, and you've seen them there, and you've seen them there. And what we started doing pretty much immediately is talk at conferences, not about what RevenueCat does as a product, but about how we build RevenueCat.

Because if I'm considering, like, should I do this myself or gonna let somebody else do it? Right? I'm considering am am I building I'm gonna build build infrastructure or build a tool or whatever. Am I gonna do this myself or gonna trust somebody else? Having faith in that other party's capabilities goes a long way.

So then going up on stage and saying, okay. Well, this is how we built that. This is how it works. Right? That's that's a great way to to instill trust.

So, yeah, just it's not even unique to developer tools. Right? Just, like, go to where your customer is and and meet as many of them as possible. And for developers, I think there there's there's this history of events and meetups and communities that you can just go out and find and and and and become a part of, and that helps.

It's building the understanding and then building, like, technical credibility, I guess. Would you Yeah. Would you say those

Yeah. And then so a very good example, and it doesn't work as well everywhere as it does there, but whenever I'm at a new company, I I grab a bunch of people and we go to Japan. And that's because Japan is very cool. Right? It's just like a place you wanna hang out.

But also, Japan is a huge market, and and people generally don't touch Japan as a market until very, very late because they think it's difficult and people speak another language and whatever. Actually, in developer tooling and developers there, English actually goes goes quite a long way. But if you go to Tokyo and then you pull up Conpass, C 0 N P A S S, it's like a japanesemeetup.com for engineering meetups, and then they're gonna be, like, 10 or 12 or 20 every single day of the week in Tokyo, and then you could just go from meetup to meetup to meetup to meetup to meetup to meetup. And they're gonna be super happy to have somebody, like, from abroad come over and do a talk and and share what they've built and whatever. Maybe buy the pizza or the beer for the for for the meet up.

And that's where you get, like, your first couple of ambassadors or advocates. And we're doing that we're we're doing that with a revenue cat. It worked amazingly for Bit Bitrise. But for Bitrise, we got we got a tiny little bit lucky where one of the first times we went there, one of the people that was using Bitrise then got hired or now founded one of Japan's biggest startup successes ever ever. So then that entire company was using Bitrise.

It's a very, like, meetup heavy culture, so their engineers would go to meetups and tell other engineers about the product. And then there were more, and then there were more, and then it just kinda turned into our number two market in the world in the span of months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Super cool. Like, the power of just, like, going and visiting your customers wherever they are, it's, like, sounds super simple, but, yeah, that works.

Yeah. That that was really interesting. Yeah. And what do you say to the kind of, like, I know some people are like kind of against, like, say conferences, like, oh, it's not worth it, this sort of thing. Like, you know, you do get some return, but it's, like, very expensive.

It takes a lot of time, like, sort of stuff like that.

It's it depends on how you do them. Right? So now we make our brand is a bit quirky, right, by design. So we make we make a deliberate effort to have the biggest awareness booth wherever we go.

I I've gotta need an example.

Oh, so I I'll I'll send you I'll send you a clip. At one conference, we had a human claw machine. So we make these Revenge Cat plushies. So we had like a a huge, like kiddie pool type thing filled with plushies and then somebody would get into a harness and then there's like a little joystick and then they got elevated and then sent down to like grab a plushie. We did that.

We had somebody from the cast of cats in, like, dressed as a cat in a fortune teller booth lay fortunes, but then the fortunes were all, like, cat cards that we made. Yeah. So we do

That is weird. Sorry. Quirky. Quirky, I should say. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. But then the thing is, like, because those conferences are smaller, they're like, I'm not going to Dreamforge or whatever. Like, these are not 100,000 person conferences, so doing a booth well is also not a million dollars. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These are like mobile.

Yeah. It used to be

like iOS dev conferences or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

But then but then even it's not about having the giant booth. Right? We do that now because, like, it's just part of what we do. We like to like our ethos when we decide on, like, events or marketing stuff, we do two things. We do things that help developers make more money because that's the mission.

Right? So if we logically think that something will help a developer make more money, we will do it. Doesn't matter if it actually moves the needle in terms of marketing because if you consistently do the thing that your customer cares about most, you've just built a tremendous amount of trust. Right? It's like, oh, you care about the exact same thing I care about.

So we do things that help developers make more money, and we do things we think are funny. It's those two things. Right? And then sometimes they can be both at the same time, like perfect, but it has to be one of those two. And, yeah, the booth is more because we think it's funny than anything else.

It's really about talking to as many customers as possible. You don't need a crazy booth to do that. Right? You can just go a place. You can you can shake a bunch of hands.

The the thing I always always do and and did even before we had, like, booth money is pick the most interesting and relevant talks and just be in the front row, just ask questions, walk up to people at the end of it, just like have a conversation. That's that's where the actual that's where the money is. Right? It's in those it's in those conversations.

Who goes to the conferences typically?

Like, everybody inside the company. There's a Notion page that lists every conference that we're doing throughout the year, and then there's a column available to go. And everybody in the company just, like, fills their name in for a bunch of stuff. So if you go to, like, an iOS conference, you might have somebody from our people team at the booth or, like, a marketing person or a product person or an engineer. Right?

They also go to all the things.

Wow. Finance? Do finance gets great?

Yeah. But everybody goes. So and it's it's again, like, it's a little bit of a playbook thing because I did the same thing at Bitrise. At Bitrise, the trick was that I would bring our head of legal, Tim, which is like, Tim is amazing. Super nice guy.

He's also like a 60 year old man with glasses who is obviously a lawyer. Right? And I would have him demo BidPrize at the booth. Right? So my my trick would be I'd ask somebody, like, what do you use for, like, mobile mobile CICD?

And somebody would say Jenkins because everybody says Jenkins. And I'd be like, oh, how long does that take you? And they'd be like, oh, hours, days. And I'd be like, okay. This is Tim.

He's our head of legal. He's not gonna set up Bitrise. And then Tim would set up Bitrise. Right? And that's a good gag.

Yeah. But the actual value is in the fact that Tim had a very, very good understanding of what we did and who we did it for. So that when Tim has to, like, sign a check for something, he knows what it's like, the context helps everyone. Yeah. That's the value.

That that's part of the value. That's also the message that everybody that visits your booth is gonna get. It's like, oh, so everybody in the company cares about this. Right? Everybody in the company cares about this.

Yeah. Yeah. You can probably pick a random person in any part of of RevenueCat, and they're gonna know a little bit of mobile dev, and they're gonna know a little bit of mobile growth just by virtue of having that much exposure to to customers.

Yeah. This is actually it's a really cool approach. I know I guess it sounds like it's not quite simple, but I don't know that many people that are doing this. It's really cool.

It's not it's super like, just spin up an open page. Like, it's Again, it was like a day one thing at at RevenueCat. It was like, cool. We're all gonna go to conferences now. And because we're fully remote, it also helps people meet each other in person.

Right? Because, like, most people, you you just see each other over Zoom. So you see the people you work with. You you get really close to other teams because you're not gonna be at a conference with just developers. You're not gonna be at a conference with just the finance people.

You're gonna, like, build build these kind of relationships that that also just make collaboration better.

Yeah. Yeah. That that makes sense. Like, I I've seen like some kind of someone was writing I think it was Keith Casey was writing about like DevRel. I might be calling out Keith that wasn't didn't write this.

But I think it was like saying one of the things just like, a lot of the time you have in companies like the dev roles will get to go to like fly all around the world, go to all the conferences. While like someone in the engineering team would like dream to go to like a conference once a year, but they don't get to go. And then it's like kind of creates like kind of a weird vibe as well where

Yeah. And and Just there's like I'm I'm looking up the picture because we have Flutter Kaigi is happening. Like, there's a Flutter, it's on the mobile technology conference in in Tokyo, and who is there? Actually, one developer advocate is there because we do have developer advocates. This is just not, like, their just their job.

There's a developer advocate. There's somebody from support. There is a product manager. There's just like an assortment of revenue cats Yeah. At that conference now.

Revenue cats. Is that that's what you call it. Call yourselves.

Yeah. Every once in a while.

Okay. That's amazing. Okay, Rick. So where can people go? I mean, they can go to the article, but, like, can they reach out to you if they wanna if they're interested in joining you?

Yeah. They they they can definitely reach out to me. And I have to, like, check the URL to make sure it works. Dot com/jobs because hiring for sales, hiring for marketing, hiring a ton of engineers. The dev x team is really, really cool.

The developer experience team, product and design, tons of jobs open because, yeah, having having 20% of App Store revenue flow through Remnica is fun, but what is way better than 20% is a 100%. And it's gonna take a lot of people to make that 100% a reality. So that sounds appealing than, you know, nowhere to find us.

Amazing. Amazing. And where can people find G, Rick?

I'm on Twitter mostly. It's h I broke my hat though.

R I k is significantly easier.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's h h a a n d o r. So my my last name is Handrichmann, which don't even try to pronounce it.

And my first name is, like, officially of Hendrik. So it's h hander from the from the last name. Just like if you if you search for revenue cat, I'm gonna pop up in a lot of the lot of the conversations. Oh, we didn't even talk about that. But, like, the entire company is on Twitter talking to developers day in, day out.

Like, we have a TAML set up so that we know that when somebody talks about RevenueCat, somebody inside the company is gonna jump on it. That's awesome.

Which tool do you use for that?

I think we actually built something. Oh. I think we built something. Maybe maybe one

day Build versus buy.

And and then it'll be, like, a very compelling Yeah. Way for us for us to buy something. Yeah. Yes. We do the Yeah.

So I think maybe Jacob talked about this when he was on, but we just, like, follow every single person that talks about RevenueCat, like, follow them. And then what happens is that over time, your entire feed is customers, so that when you go to to Twitter slash axe, then you're just gonna see people that you do the job for. Again, it helps. It just helps build understanding.

You're not you're not wasting time, you're doing your job at that point. When you're when you're on Twitter liking people's memes and stuff.

That's very much how I I how I try to think about it.

Rick, amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate that. Short notice as well, so thank you.

Yeah. You're super welcome. This was fun.

Thanks, everyone, for listening.