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You know your business needs to change, but you’re caught in the emotional and relational dynamics that are holding you back. Welcome to Noble Metal, the podcast that helps you forge a new kind of leadership. Host Phillip Weiss, a seasoned executive coach and organizational consultant, reveals how to become a more resilient, deliberate, and less-anxious leader.
Through powerful insights based on Bowen Theory and systems thinking, you’ll learn to navigate complex workplace relationships, manage challenging strategic issues, and lead your team to sustainable change. Get the clarity and tools you need to forge a new path for your business.
Ep08
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Welcome and Series Setup
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[00:00:00]
Phillip Weiss: Hi, and welcome to Noble Metal, a podcast about leadership at work and in life through the lens of Bowen Family Systems theory. A few episodes ago, I introduced the idea of the five anxious responses or patterns under stress. So the idea that when systems get more anxious, people typically begin to engage.
Five very actually predictable behaviors. So just as a quick refresher, [00:01:00] these five behaviors are increased togetherness, conflict, distance, and cutoff over and under functioning. And Triangling. And so in these next five episodes, my intention is to dig deeper into each one of these, and so it bodes the question of, wow, why?
Why is this so important that I would dedicate that kind of time to it? Bottom line, these behaviors are really, really common and they can really, really trip us up as we're working to get things done and to lead ourselves well and to lead others. So just I'm gonna repeat a quote from Dan au leading systems thinker who said productivity rests squarely on the shoulders of successful work relationships.
I love that quote. Really straightforward, really clear, and I think we all kind of get it. Yeah, I mean, if I can't make those relationships work I can be the smartest person in the room. [00:02:00] But I still might not be able to get things done. So these patterns are important and we're gonna explore them. In de in greater detail.
Togetherness vs Individuality
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Phillip Weiss: So the first, let's get started by focusing really on this first concept of increased togetherness. And it's, it has a corresponding togetherness, has a correspondent, really a corresponding behavior, which is individuality. And so we sometimes will talk about this togetherness and individuality. Continuum.
Murray Bowen believed that leadership is not primarily about technique or personality, but it's about how well a person can stay connected to others while still maintaining a clear sense of self. So honestly, if you've ever been torn between fitting in and standing your ground, this, this, this podcast might actually just be for you.
So Bowen Theory starts with a really simple. But powerful [00:03:00] idea. We as humans are wired for togetherness. We love to connect. It's our thing. Even the most introverted of us at least, want to know that we're a part of something. We don't always have to be with the group, but we want to know we're included.
We want to know that we can tap into it whenever we want to. But in Bowman theory, this togetherness concept is not just a social preference. It's an emotional force that pulls people toward connection, approval, agreement, and even in shared emotional states. So I, I think that that's an important distinction.
It's not just a social preference, it's an emotional force. And that's a significant aspect of the theory.
Togetherness as Emotional Glue
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Phillip Weiss: So this togetherness, it's useful, it's a baseline. We, it's, it's really kind of how we like to roll. It's what we trend toward. It helps families survive. It helps teams coordinate. It creates that sense of [00:04:00] we and the theory's clear.
That without a certain healthy togetherness, and I make a distinction between a healthy and unhealthy togetherness systems fall apart. But Bowen also identified that a second force that's in play equally powerful and often misunderstood in that, and that being in the force of individuality. So this togetherness, individuality, these two forces create a sort of tension.
So as we start to think about this, and then what I spoke about in the first time I introduced the concept is this, that the togetherness really is the glue that holds the system together. System being fam a family, a, a work environment, a church congregation, et cetera. And in, and it shows up through unspoken rules.
Like, Hey, we don't, we don't rock the boat. We stay aligned. We all agree, we don't upset each other. We're loyal to each other. [00:05:00] So these rules aren't written, but they are clearly felt That is a, a sense of, of that is a kind of an a manifestation of this togetherness. And on the surface, this actually might sound okay and there might be times when all of those might make sense in some measure.
so This emotional, this togetherness acts in a way as the emotional glue that holds the system together. And in families and organizations, it can show up through unspoken rules such as we don't rock the boat, we stay aligned. We all agree, we don't upset each other. We value loyalty. Those are signs of togetherness and these rules aren't written, but they are definitely felt on the surface.
This might actually, you know, these behaviors might actually sound good and there are times when these rules might be genuinely useful. Bowen [00:06:00] would say that the emotional system though, is always regulating anxiety. And so this togetherness, this we ness reduces anxiety in a way by creating a sense of sameness and predictability.
Now when anxiety's low, togetherness is more flexible. It's a healthier togetherness. It's more productive, so to speak. People can disagree successfully, and I love saying that to people. Can you disagree successfully In low anxiety situations people can still be together, but they can disagree without.
Upsetting each other, and we're gonna get more into that a little bit so people can actually stay connected without panicking. But when that anxious tension rises, that togetherness tightens, it intensifies, it increases, and all of those behaviors that I just listed off can really [00:07:00] intensify. And that's really where problems can begin.
But before I dig more kind of into the problem, let's talk about or into the problematic aspect, if you will, of togetherness.
Healthy Togetherness Benefits
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Phillip Weiss: Let's dig a little bit into the benefits of it. So bone theory doesn't criticize togetherness. It, again, it's the baseline of how we roll. We trend toward this. And there are reasons for it.
It keeps us safe and alive. By being, by being together gives us a sense of belonging, emotional safety, that sense of trust, shared meaning a sense of com, camaraderie and and fun fund and, and ultimately. Is this idea of it creates cooperation. We get more done together than if we were just by ourselves.
There's a picture that I love using in workbooks sometimes to depict this cooperation. Not everybody appreciates it [00:08:00] because not everybody likes bees, but they're, I have this great picture of these bees where like Three of them are like hanging onto each other, completely stretched, stretch their legs out to create this bridge.
It, it's such a great image of this idea of kind of, of, of cooperating for the greater good. Another thing about togetherness is that it feels really good. It can feel very, very cozy and and we love that coziness. We love that feel goodness of being together and being part of something bigger than us.
Organizations need this. Families need it.
Fusion When Togetherness Goes Too Far
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Phillip Weiss: So the problem is not really togetherness itself, it, the problem is togetherness, if you will. The problem, so to speak, is that, is togetherness without any corresponding individuality. And Bowen called that actually fusion. This fusion occurs when [00:09:00] emotional boundaries more or less blur, and people lose clarity about where they end and others begin. And so in these fuse systems, which is kind of more negative and un and a less healthy togetherness, disagreement, actually can feel threatening. Differences can feel kind of disloyal.
Independence feels sort of selfish and emotional comfort becomes more important than truth. That's an, I think that's a very significant one. We love that comfort, that coziness of being together and that comfort becomes more important in some measure than objective reality in organizations and families too, for that matter.
Fusion often shows up as green as group think, and this is where I think a real world example becomes helpful.
Nokia Case Study Groupthink
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Phillip Weiss: So I want to tell the story of Nokia where when basically togetherness, essentially silenced reality. [00:10:00] So at one point, Nokia was the most dominant mobile phone company in the world. They had a, a brilliant engineers, strong leadership, and a culture that people described as tight and aligned.
Now that sounds good, sounds healthy. But as competition increased and the smartphone market started to shift anxiety in the Nokia system, increased senior leaders projected a certain level of confidence, but underneath that confidence was fear of losing dominance and market share. Very real, you know, real fear, very, very real thing and in an anxious system.
Systems theory would say the pull toward togetherness intensifies, and that's what happened here. So inside Nokia, many engineers and managers knew there were problems. They knew the software was falling behind. They knew Apple and Android were changing the market. They knew timelines were unrealistic.
But they didn't state it clearly. They would not engage in the conflict. Why? [00:11:00] Because disagreement carried emotional consequences. People who raised concerns were seen as not team players. Optimism was rewarded over realism, and meetings became places where people told leaders what they wanted to hear.
It's not incompetence. These are super competent, PE competent people. It is fusion, it's it's togetherness gone too far. What I would actually call team too much in a way. The system had become so emotionally invested in agreement that it lost its ability to see reality. And here's the key. Insight from, from theory, Nokia didn't fail because they lacked talent.
They failed because the system could not tolerate differentiation in a way. It couldn't tolerate people moving toward a bit more individuality and speaking in a sense their truth about what they knew technically. Too [00:12:00] much togetherness, filtered reality. And by the time reality broke through, it was too late.
And that's the cost of fusion. And so too late, meaning as I sit here today, some of you probably don't even know who Nokia was. I'm old enough to remember when they were a leading, leading thing in in the world phones.
Differentiation and I Position
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Phillip Weiss: So Marie Bowen believed that one of the greatest challenges for us as humans. Is to become a better, more differentiated self.
That is someone who is more clear about what they believe and don't believe what I will do or won't do, and then act more calmly on those principles. So having a clear sense of, of kind of who I am and a willingness to act on that. Those principles, if you will, individuality then, which is kinda what we're talking about here, requires a certain clarity and that clarity can sometimes.
[00:13:00] Disrupt that emotional sameness when you, you know, that you get with togetherness. When anxiety is high, systems will react very strongly to anyone who begins to think independently. They may respond with things like pressure of, of sorts, various sort of social pressures, criticism, labeling, emotional withdrawal.
And it's not necessarily personal. I can feel that way, but it's not necessarily personal. It's the emotional system trying to restore balance. People are trying to go back to that cozy feeling of closeness and sameness. The system is, is reacting not necessarily to the person. But to the loss of that cozy togetherness. So that's why this individuality, these efforts toward that and toward differentiation really require a certain steadiness. So I know that [00:14:00] sometimes this concept of differentiation can be misunderstood.
And, and it, and I will say it's the, it's the, you know, it's the thing that people think about, talk about work on the most in traffic in this theory, this idea of differentiation of self. So let's, let's kind of state sort of what it's not, it's not necessarily independent, it's, it's independence is something like, I don't need you.
Differentiation though might be saying, I can stay connected to you without losing myself. So individuality is not selfishness. Differentiation doesn't abandon relationships, it actually engages them, but hopefully more honestly, more intentionally, more maturely.
And again, individuality is not like, I don't care what anybody thinks, more differentiated. People might actually care very deeply. They just don't collapse into sort of [00:15:00] this togetherness blob under pressure. One of the ways that Bowen defined differentiation was as the ability to, ability to stay emotionally connected while maintaining a clear sense of self.
I know I'm kind of repeating that, but I think it's, it's worth, it's worth hearing it, and so this includes separating, thinking from feeling. Which is a big distinction that, that Bowen actually made in coaching. I will, sometimes I, I, I will ask somebody, you know, what are you thinking about something? And then I might have a very, a different question that's like, how are you feeling about that?
And the answers to those questions might be different thinking. And, and I think in our society we tend to kind of collapse the two as though they're one and the same. But actually sometimes how we think and how we feel can be very different. So separating how, how being able to distinguish between those two.
Differentiation is also about taking [00:16:00] responsibility for myself in these sort of togetherness dynamics, taking responsibility for my behaviors and the outcomes of those behaviors. Differentiation is also in this togetherness force regulating my own anxiety internally, and taking sometimes what Bowen called an eye position.
That's what starts to move us toward this differentiation and recall. An eye position sounds, could sound like something like, I see this differently. I'm not comfortable with that direction. I care about this relationship and I'm still choosing something different. Easy for me to sit here and say on a podcast some, you know, hard to do and sometimes takes courage.
In a very real world workplace dynamic or family dynamic
Differentiation also requires tolerating discomfort. And again, we'll get more into that, but I think that [00:17:00] is true of leadership in general. If we are going to be leaders, we are going to have to, at times, take unpopular stance, make decisions that might not fit everyone, and it's going to require that we be able to tolerate the discomfort of that.
Anxious systems, reward, compliance, not necessarily clarity. We're, we're looking to move toward that clarity.
Family Example Angela Sets Boundaries
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Phillip Weiss: So let, let me give you a family example as a way of illustrating this togetherness pull and a potential move toward more differentiation.
A woman that I worked with, and we'll call her for, for the, for now we'll call her, Angela, came from a very, very close family. They, they were constantly in communication with each other. Spent every weekend together at family dinner on Sundays, expected everybody to be involved kind of in everything.
And underneath this closeness was [00:18:00] sort of this unspoken rule that we stay connected by staying the same. So when Angela got married, the pressure on this dynamic increased as often marriages will do and bring in a new player and potentially new rules and new behaviors. So if she didn't come to Sunday dinner, her mom would say something like, well, I guess we're just not as important anymore.
So Angelo realized she wasn't making choices freely, but that she was really working at, you know, she was in essence complying and trying to manage her family's anxiousness. So one weekend when her parents were upset that she wasn't coming, she very calmly said, I love you. I'm still part of this family, and this weekend we're staying home.
No argument. She wasn't withdrawing from the relationship, although it probably felt that way to her folks. She just made a very clear, and stated a very clear, I position no doubt things were awkward for a while, [00:19:00] which is exactly what theory would predict, but Angela stayed calm and consistent and connected.
Over time for her, truly the guilt decreased and, and the relationship relationship actually improved. And by that I mean she was able to maintain contact, not go over every Sunday and. Hopefully not tick her parents off too much. I guess you could say. She worked at differentiation and worked is the right word.
It takes practice and courage. Having those kinds of conversations don't come easy, especially in the family dynamic and also in the work dynamic.
Leadership as Less Anxious Presence
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Phillip Weiss: From a theory perspective, leadership is not concerned about control. It's about functioning. How are we functioning? Leaders influence systems by what they say and more by how they manage themselves. A differentiated leader. Stays connected without over-functioning [00:20:00] or totally always taking over.
Sometimes you might need to, but they can don't always need to. Differentiated leader stays clear without being rigid. There's a flexibility, there's an openness to new data that might come in that might actually change their opinion on something.
And so we've called this in our last episode or two. The less anxious presence, which can actually stabilize work and family systems over time. So, kind of going back to it, I want to, we think about this togetherness and individuality, continuum, nature, in a sense pulls us toward that cozy togetherness.
And it takes work sometimes to move toward a little bit more of a centrist role. And not saying that that's always what we're doing is to be cent, you know, centrist between the two. It just depends kind of on the situation and the dynamic. But the idea here is that that [00:21:00] individuality movement is tough.
It's hard to do.
Reflection Questions and Wrap Up
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Phillip Weiss: So here's my suggestion for you as we move toward a wrap here today. Think of an important system, one at work and one at home. And I would encourage you to actually write down your observations to the following questions. There's a lot to be said for writing. We don't do it, I think enough these days.
Question number one, what signs, are you seeing in terms of togetherness, both in a work and a family situation? How might that togetherness actually be serving the situation? Well, what might be, are you seeing signs of like a healthy togetherness, so to speak? Where might togetherness be going too far?
And becoming kind of a fusion, a, a not so productive fusion? Where are you in the mix with each of these? What are your behaviors? How are you showing up? Are you getting sucked into the cozy togetherness, or are you making moves toward more individuality? And [00:22:00] what might healthy individuality start to look like from you in each one of these?
Write it down. I really encourage you to do that. As we wrap, togetherness is necessary. It is the glue of, of, of systems. Individuality is necessary. It's what grounds us as, as individual humans inside these powerful relationship dynamics.
Healthy relationships come from holding both of these without sacrificing one for the other. The strongest leaders are not always the loudest or most agreeable, but they oftentimes are the most emotionally clear. They know who they are, they stay connected, they're present and accounted for. And they tolerate discomfort when it's necessary.
And that often more than any strategy is what transforms families, [00:23:00] teams, and organizations. Thank you for listening today. If you like what you've heard please leave us a review or if you have other thoughts love to hear your comments again. Thank you for listening to Noble Metal.