WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.065 --> 00:00:02.255 Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things. 00:00:02.255 --> 00:00:03.545 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:03.755 --> 00:00:04.445 I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:04.658 --> 00:00:10.448 And uh, today we've got a, a beautiful quote from Ard to, and we can de 00:00:10.628 --> 00:00:12.578 uh, how do we say his damn name? 00:00:12.848 --> 00:00:16.658 I say Eckhart to Eckhart Toll in, uh, America. 00:00:16.658 --> 00:00:17.648 I think they say Tole. 00:00:18.158 --> 00:00:18.398 Tole. 00:00:18.938 --> 00:00:19.238 Yeah. 00:00:19.328 --> 00:00:20.078 Eckhart Toll. 00:00:20.078 --> 00:00:24.248 Sounds like if he was an Aussie, you'd call him Eckhart to Eckhart Toll Mate. 00:00:24.398 --> 00:00:26.258 Yeah, CRO Croissant. 00:00:26.498 --> 00:00:26.918 Yeah. 00:00:26.948 --> 00:00:28.328 Yeah, cafe La. 00:00:28.688 --> 00:00:33.938 Um, and look, it's a beautiful sounding quote, but as well, unfortunately we might 00:00:33.938 --> 00:00:36.998 agree on this a little bit more than I thought, but I think it'll still be really 00:00:36.998 --> 00:00:41.048 good that it's a beautiful sounding quote, but how much do we really agree with it? 00:00:41.528 --> 00:00:41.558 Mm. 00:00:41.588 --> 00:00:43.208 On a scale of one to 10, Joe. 00:00:43.502 --> 00:00:46.802 Right now, how much can you endorse this statement? 00:00:47.522 --> 00:00:51.242 Uh, I want to hear you read it, and I want to have a spontaneous 00:00:51.272 --> 00:00:52.772 in the moment reaction to it. 00:00:53.132 --> 00:00:55.982 Ooh, that's very, because I, I'm all over the shop on this one. 00:00:56.102 --> 00:00:56.822 Yeah, me too. 00:00:56.822 --> 00:00:57.640 I think okay. 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:02.140 Here's the quote behind the sometimes seemingly random or even chaotic 00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:07.210 succession of events in our lives, as well as in the world, lies concealed the 00:01:07.210 --> 00:01:09.580 unfolding of a higher order and purpose. 00:01:10.210 --> 00:01:14.830 This is beautifully expressed in the Zen saying, the snow falls each 00:01:14.830 --> 00:01:16.750 flake in its appropriate place. 00:01:17.830 --> 00:01:21.010 We can never understand this higher order through thinking about it, because 00:01:21.010 --> 00:01:22.600 whatever we think about is content. 00:01:23.080 --> 00:01:27.370 Whereas the higher order emanates from the formless realm of consciousness, 00:01:27.670 --> 00:01:32.440 from universal intelligence, but we can glimpse it and more than that, 00:01:32.440 --> 00:01:34.480 align ourselves with it, which means. 00:01:35.005 --> 00:01:39.145 Be conscious participants in the unfolding of that higher purpose. 00:01:40.225 --> 00:01:42.055 And that's from his book, A New Earth. 00:01:42.445 --> 00:01:43.225 Mm. 00:01:43.225 --> 00:01:44.155 Which was published when? 00:01:45.055 --> 00:01:46.675 Uh, dunno exactly. 00:01:46.705 --> 00:01:47.605 Early two thousands. 00:01:47.605 --> 00:01:48.385 Early two thousands. 00:01:48.445 --> 00:01:48.835 Okay. 00:01:48.835 --> 00:01:51.655 So one to 10 or zero to 10. 00:01:52.765 --> 00:01:56.905 Flat zero flatly rejecting at 10, completely utterly endorsing it. 00:01:57.085 --> 00:01:57.745 Where are you? 00:01:57.895 --> 00:02:03.865 Uh, I think I can glimpse a higher purpose at times, but it's like I 00:02:03.865 --> 00:02:08.305 can glimpse a higher purpose when everything aligns in a way that I like. 00:02:08.695 --> 00:02:09.295 Haha. 00:02:10.075 --> 00:02:16.915 And this particular spiritual statement, I'm very jealous of Eckhart told, 00:02:16.915 --> 00:02:18.685 I wish I could be this confident. 00:02:19.465 --> 00:02:22.255 I, I, I mean, I look, I, I feel the same way. 00:02:22.285 --> 00:02:26.275 I kept the piece of writing because I found it a beautiful piece of writing. 00:02:26.275 --> 00:02:31.285 I really like the zen line of, uh, the snow falls, each 00:02:31.285 --> 00:02:32.965 flake in its appropriate place. 00:02:32.965 --> 00:02:34.195 Can't argue with that statement. 00:02:34.555 --> 00:02:35.305 Well, you can argue. 00:02:35.395 --> 00:02:39.415 Well, that's what we're gonna argue with is that isn't the snow falling 00:02:39.415 --> 00:02:41.725 just completely random chaos? 00:02:42.565 --> 00:02:48.925 And isn't it weird spiritual mumbo jumbo that would put people off a show like this 00:02:49.615 --> 00:02:51.625 to say that it falls in its appropriate. 00:02:52.135 --> 00:02:52.915 Place. 00:02:53.215 --> 00:02:53.455 Yeah. 00:02:53.485 --> 00:02:53.635 Okay. 00:02:53.635 --> 00:02:55.915 So for starters, I hate the word appropriate. 00:02:55.945 --> 00:02:57.205 It's used a lot in teaching. 00:02:57.205 --> 00:02:59.875 It's a very, you know, it's a very professional context sort of word. 00:03:00.505 --> 00:03:05.395 And it's the kind of word I would struggle to hear, struggle to say. 00:03:05.395 --> 00:03:06.505 Struggle to define. 00:03:06.505 --> 00:03:11.605 And that's my problem with it, that it's says everything while saying nothing. 00:03:11.665 --> 00:03:15.265 So when we say to a, you know, to somebody in a situation, well, what you are 00:03:15.265 --> 00:03:17.005 saying or doing there is inappropriate. 00:03:17.275 --> 00:03:20.005 We haven't actually given them any information other than 00:03:20.005 --> 00:03:24.685 someone, me, perhaps, possibly everybody doesn't like this. 00:03:25.375 --> 00:03:28.315 Or in theory it's not suitable. 00:03:29.245 --> 00:03:31.675 You know, it's not the right thing in the right place, in the right time. 00:03:32.185 --> 00:03:33.715 But why, why not? 00:03:34.585 --> 00:03:41.035 So appropriateness apropos means that it goes, that it applies. 00:03:41.155 --> 00:03:42.925 I think it's clear what he's saying though. 00:03:44.035 --> 00:03:48.055 I, you don't have to pull apart the word appropriate, like, but No, but 00:03:48.055 --> 00:03:51.085 no, I have to because the snowflake lands in its appropriate place. 00:03:51.685 --> 00:03:55.915 Well, why is the, why is the place that lands any more appropriate than, so 00:03:55.915 --> 00:03:58.285 everything he is saying that everything is happening exactly how it should. 00:03:59.125 --> 00:03:59.545 Yeah, sure. 00:03:59.550 --> 00:03:59.880 I get that. 00:03:59.880 --> 00:04:03.085 And we can align ourselves with the purpose. 00:04:03.266 --> 00:04:05.516 and that means everything we see in the news mm-hmm. 00:04:06.086 --> 00:04:07.946 Is happening exactly as it should. 00:04:08.456 --> 00:04:11.966 And we can be completely at peace with it, for example. 00:04:12.416 --> 00:04:14.126 And that's where I start to struggle. 00:04:14.156 --> 00:04:14.306 Mm. 00:04:14.366 --> 00:04:17.906 Or that everything happens for a reason. 00:04:17.911 --> 00:04:18.331 Mm-hmm. 00:04:18.416 --> 00:04:22.646 That, that has been something that I've kind of heard around 00:04:22.646 --> 00:04:24.296 my addiction recovery circles. 00:04:24.296 --> 00:04:28.796 And it's kind of the thread that's unraveling my spirituality. 00:04:28.886 --> 00:04:29.126 Mm-hmm. 00:04:29.636 --> 00:04:32.126 Because I can't sort of agree with it. 00:04:32.756 --> 00:04:37.736 I think there's a lot more randomness and chaos, even if there is a higher power. 00:04:38.606 --> 00:04:46.252 I don't see a lot of guidance towards justice or, uh, peace or, I, I 00:04:46.371 --> 00:04:48.146 don't, I don't see the hand of a. 00:04:48.551 --> 00:04:52.421 Of a higher power, an interventionist God making things Okay. 00:04:52.601 --> 00:04:54.791 By the end of the Almighty. 00:04:55.421 --> 00:04:55.811 Yeah. 00:04:55.811 --> 00:04:59.531 Not seeing it myself at the moment, I've gotta say, and, and for the people 00:04:59.531 --> 00:05:04.241 that are looking around and saying things in, you know, in the media about 00:05:04.751 --> 00:05:09.011 this, something or other is happening according to God's plan, they're usually 00:05:09.011 --> 00:05:11.081 endorsing a bad thing when they say that. 00:05:11.141 --> 00:05:11.681 So, yeah. 00:05:11.711 --> 00:05:13.631 So it's, it's deeply problematic. 00:05:13.691 --> 00:05:20.411 But on the other hand, when I'm in what I would call a more spiritual state, if I've 00:05:20.411 --> 00:05:27.791 had a good meditation session or something like that, it can seem like things 00:05:27.816 --> 00:05:30.311 are in alignment, if that makes sense. 00:05:30.521 --> 00:05:30.761 Sure. 00:05:30.761 --> 00:05:33.131 And that I'm in alignment with something greater. 00:05:34.091 --> 00:05:39.131 And there's a lot less to worry about than I thought there was. 00:05:39.341 --> 00:05:42.131 So I have these exalted moments. 00:05:42.161 --> 00:05:42.431 Mm-hmm. 00:05:42.911 --> 00:05:49.121 But I'm really in a spiritual bind because I, I just can't 00:05:51.221 --> 00:05:53.951 believe that everything happens for a reason. 00:05:54.041 --> 00:05:56.021 No, neither can I front him flat flatly. 00:05:56.021 --> 00:05:56.891 I'll agree with you. 00:05:57.461 --> 00:05:59.171 Now there's layers to this thing. 00:05:59.561 --> 00:06:00.821 Lot, a lot, a lot of layers. 00:06:00.821 --> 00:06:03.551 And we might be able to endorse it on some layers and not on others. 00:06:03.551 --> 00:06:03.881 Right. 00:06:03.881 --> 00:06:05.531 That's what I'm expecting to find here. 00:06:06.341 --> 00:06:09.941 But probably less interested in what he intends by this, but 00:06:09.941 --> 00:06:11.351 more like what we can make of it. 00:06:11.351 --> 00:06:11.711 But. 00:06:13.121 --> 00:06:17.531 I will say like, so before we hit record, you mentioned that this is the kind of 00:06:17.531 --> 00:06:21.551 statement you could have sort of got behind much more readily six months ago. 00:06:22.811 --> 00:06:23.351 Yeah. 00:06:23.351 --> 00:06:26.561 Like I said, it's maybe I'm unraveling and you're having a bit of a 00:06:26.561 --> 00:06:28.331 Catholic experience of religion. 00:06:28.361 --> 00:06:32.651 Well, I do find the Catholics are always tortured by the, does God exist? 00:06:32.861 --> 00:06:34.451 Doesn't God exist stuff? 00:06:34.481 --> 00:06:34.751 Right. 00:06:34.781 --> 00:06:35.111 Well they do. 00:06:35.411 --> 00:06:38.141 Certainly the stereotype is they do they do a lot of hand wring for 00:06:38.141 --> 00:06:39.641 a lot of reasons, sort of, yeah. 00:06:39.641 --> 00:06:44.531 You know, whether it's the guilt they feel themselves or, or the guilt at 00:06:44.531 --> 00:06:49.751 what other Catholics have done or, or struggle with elements of doctrine. 00:06:49.991 --> 00:06:55.271 Because, I mean, not all churches are like this, but the more established churches, 00:06:55.331 --> 00:07:02.321 there is a, there is an expectation that the followers will basically update 00:07:02.321 --> 00:07:08.681 their software whenever the learned elder or the council of elders or you know, 00:07:08.681 --> 00:07:12.281 the Pope or like, you know, whoever's in the position to make doctrinal. 00:07:12.536 --> 00:07:16.556 Clarifications in a particular church as an exp and I'm including 00:07:16.556 --> 00:07:20.396 the ha Krishnas in this, there's an expectation that everyone just 00:07:20.396 --> 00:07:23.516 goes, okay, that's the truth now. 00:07:23.516 --> 00:07:26.876 So this new little piece of theology, or this clarification on this point, 00:07:27.326 --> 00:07:32.636 or this rule that we, that now exists or doesn't exist, that that was 00:07:32.756 --> 00:07:36.130 always true and we just all upgrade. 00:07:36.130 --> 00:07:36.290 Yeah. 00:07:36.350 --> 00:07:39.395 We all, we all just upgrade our firmware and go, yep, that's what we believe. 00:07:39.395 --> 00:07:41.225 Now, did the, that's not actually how it works. 00:07:41.225 --> 00:07:43.895 Did the Harry Christner, you were raised, didn't believe that 00:07:43.895 --> 00:07:45.095 everything happens for a reason? 00:07:45.965 --> 00:07:53.765 Yes, but I'll say, to be fair, I, I want to be what this whole quote makes me. 00:07:54.605 --> 00:07:56.675 I, I'm starting to feel intense. 00:07:57.125 --> 00:08:00.395 Am I summarizing it properly by saying everything happens for a reason or 00:08:00.455 --> 00:08:02.255 have I not done Eckhart Justice? 00:08:02.255 --> 00:08:02.315 I. 00:08:03.320 --> 00:08:03.890 You know what? 00:08:03.890 --> 00:08:05.690 I don't think that's quite it. 00:08:06.020 --> 00:08:06.470 Mm. 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:10.910 But it's sort of good enough, I guess it's sort of like it's gonna pass the 00:08:10.910 --> 00:08:13.940 pub test as like that's probably a reasonable, because he is saying that we 00:08:13.940 --> 00:08:15.890 can't understand it by thinking about it. 00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:18.844 So he's saying it's gotta come from pure consciousness. 00:08:18.888 --> 00:08:19.188 Yes. 00:08:19.188 --> 00:08:23.568 And so the ha Christians did say some similar things to that, so, 00:08:23.924 --> 00:08:25.184 but this whole thing makes me. 00:08:25.468 --> 00:08:31.018 A retreat into quite a sort of, you know, dare I say, scientific sort of 00:08:31.018 --> 00:08:34.738 way of thinking where I'm actually deeply interested in causality and 00:08:34.738 --> 00:08:39.598 why things happen and consequence and effect and cause and, you know, trying 00:08:39.598 --> 00:08:40.858 to get things in the right order. 00:08:41.578 --> 00:08:44.338 And of course some causes and effects don't go in a straight order 00:08:44.338 --> 00:08:46.048 and they're a complex interaction. 00:08:46.108 --> 00:08:50.365 So it brings to mind physics and, you know, it brings to mind the 00:08:50.365 --> 00:08:53.395 time I've spent with history trying to make sense of why events went 00:08:53.395 --> 00:08:54.505 this way and not another way. 00:08:55.375 --> 00:09:00.715 And it brings to mind my experience of personal relationships and, and 00:09:00.715 --> 00:09:06.175 the role of random chance in life and so many complicated things. 00:09:06.175 --> 00:09:12.205 But I'll, I'll say when I, when I get to like a difficult point, a difficult moment 00:09:12.205 --> 00:09:16.825 in life, I often start reasoning backwards through a chain of cause and effect to try 00:09:16.825 --> 00:09:19.615 to understand, oh, well what led to this? 00:09:20.035 --> 00:09:20.395 And. 00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:25.999 What I find is I can often explain how things, uh, things have become, maps less 00:09:25.999 --> 00:09:27.739 of a mystery to me than they once were. 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:27.949 Mm-hmm. 00:09:28.189 --> 00:09:30.319 So I can endorse the statement on this sort of level. 00:09:30.859 --> 00:09:32.629 Yes, there are often reasons. 00:09:32.809 --> 00:09:37.249 Now I'm gonna say there's always reasons and there's a level of chance, 00:09:37.969 --> 00:09:42.109 but whether that connects to a higher purpose or not, I really couldn't say. 00:09:42.589 --> 00:09:45.019 I can't say it doesn't, and I can't say it does. 00:09:45.079 --> 00:09:45.349 Yeah. 00:09:45.349 --> 00:09:46.639 You know, I'm agnostic, aren't I? 00:09:46.734 --> 00:09:49.549 You know, I think, um, but the higher Christians certainly believed 00:09:49.549 --> 00:09:53.299 the left wing types were like, no, our higher purpose here is to work 00:09:53.299 --> 00:09:57.889 together to help, uh, each other and to help the rest of humanity. 00:09:57.979 --> 00:09:59.209 That's sort of the left wing take. 00:09:59.629 --> 00:10:03.529 And then there were some people who were perhaps unknown to 00:10:03.529 --> 00:10:05.299 themselves, were basically fascists. 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.340 and we're, look, we're all fascists to a degree. 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:10.970 It's about how well we're able to deprogram and liberate ourselves 00:10:10.970 --> 00:10:11.990 from that kind of thinking. 00:10:12.770 --> 00:10:16.010 But there were some people in there who were very attracted to order 00:10:16.850 --> 00:10:22.250 doctrine, hierarchy class people in their place, roles for genders. 00:10:22.280 --> 00:10:24.500 But did both for this, both sides believe that everything 00:10:24.500 --> 00:10:25.730 happened for a reason, sorry. 00:10:25.790 --> 00:10:27.440 Or, uh, yeah, I would, maybe I'm misquoting. 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.840 Did both sides believe they believe that there's a higher purpose? 00:10:29.900 --> 00:10:30.980 Yeah, I would say they both do. 00:10:31.015 --> 00:10:33.320 Do you think it's a universal spiritual? 00:10:33.770 --> 00:10:36.020 I, I think it might be thing to believe that there's a higher purpose. 00:10:36.020 --> 00:10:40.850 So can, so if I am unraveling around, I can't believe there's a higher 00:10:40.910 --> 00:10:46.836 purpose to the world and my life, then am I going back to being an atheist? 00:10:47.152 --> 00:10:48.862 Am I now set on a path? 00:10:48.862 --> 00:10:50.482 Because I can't come at like. 00:10:51.067 --> 00:10:53.827 When I, when I wrote this, I can actually help you out with that one. 00:10:53.827 --> 00:10:57.113 But when I wrote this quote down, it was because I found it really 00:10:57.113 --> 00:11:00.628 beautiful and I was kind of vibing with it, and I'm like, yeah, man. 00:11:00.633 --> 00:11:01.195 Yeah, it felt good. 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:01.523 Felt good. 00:11:01.523 --> 00:11:02.693 Higher purpose, man. 00:11:02.868 --> 00:11:03.353 I love that. 00:11:03.353 --> 00:11:03.953 Sounds great. 00:11:04.013 --> 00:11:04.463 Yeah. 00:11:04.463 --> 00:11:06.863 And that, that line, what's the line about? 00:11:06.863 --> 00:11:08.303 You can't think about it. 00:11:08.333 --> 00:11:09.893 You've gotta know it from, okay. 00:11:10.013 --> 00:11:10.253 Yeah. 00:11:10.253 --> 00:11:13.553 So we can never understand this higher order through thinking about it because 00:11:13.553 --> 00:11:16.163 whatever we think about is content. 00:11:16.493 --> 00:11:20.063 Whereas the higher order emanates from the formless realm of consciousness, 00:11:20.063 --> 00:11:22.343 from the formless realm of consciousness. 00:11:22.523 --> 00:11:22.553 Mm. 00:11:22.643 --> 00:11:24.323 See that's what I've been tapping into. 00:11:24.323 --> 00:11:24.923 It's, yeah. 00:11:24.923 --> 00:11:25.103 Yeah. 00:11:25.103 --> 00:11:26.873 It's interesting with meditation. 00:11:26.873 --> 00:11:26.993 Mm-hmm. 00:11:27.353 --> 00:11:28.793 So I was like, yes, I'm. 00:11:29.333 --> 00:11:33.533 Yes, I probably can tap into a higher order, but I can never 00:11:33.533 --> 00:11:36.443 come out of meditation and explain to you what just happened. 00:11:36.773 --> 00:11:37.013 Yeah. 00:11:37.073 --> 00:11:39.323 Because I'm back in the world of content and thinking. 00:11:39.323 --> 00:11:39.413 Mm-hmm. 00:11:39.863 --> 00:11:43.283 So I'm having these kind of trippy experiences even though I've put down 00:11:43.283 --> 00:11:47.063 drugs and alcohol, I'm having these quite trippy experiences by meditating. 00:11:47.153 --> 00:11:48.923 Well, and then at the end of meditating, you're back in the 00:11:48.923 --> 00:11:50.543 mundane world of cause and effect. 00:11:50.543 --> 00:11:50.843 Exactly. 00:11:50.843 --> 00:11:51.563 Yeah, exactly. 00:11:51.863 --> 00:11:54.983 Mundane cause and effect versus this other thing. 00:11:55.193 --> 00:11:56.093 Cosmic cause and effect. 00:11:56.093 --> 00:11:56.213 Yes. 00:11:56.213 --> 00:11:57.533 That I'm tapping into. 00:11:57.563 --> 00:11:57.623 Yeah. 00:11:57.653 --> 00:12:02.693 But yeah, but see this is the thing is I read and reread Eckhart to. 00:12:02.818 --> 00:12:03.178 Mm-hmm. 00:12:03.358 --> 00:12:06.683 But if I can't believe this part of Eckhart told, then this is the rest 00:12:06.683 --> 00:12:09.023 of the power of now and and new Earth. 00:12:09.443 --> 00:12:11.633 Does it all start to unravel because. 00:12:12.143 --> 00:12:16.373 Is it my old atheist programming kicking in after 10 years of spirituality? 00:12:16.434 --> 00:12:19.884 because I spent a lot of that time, I stopped believing that 00:12:19.884 --> 00:12:23.724 coincidences were just coincidences in my addiction recovery. 00:12:23.991 --> 00:12:24.381 yeah. 00:12:24.471 --> 00:12:24.711 Yeah. 00:12:24.891 --> 00:12:27.405 And, uh, I had the strangest experience. 00:12:27.405 --> 00:12:31.455 Sam, do you still feel like coincidences are not just coincidences? 00:12:31.455 --> 00:12:33.525 Like do you still anyway, before you get to the experience? 00:12:33.525 --> 00:12:36.225 Well, there's a couple of parts to this. 00:12:36.225 --> 00:12:40.120 Like, I was going to, uh, at about 18 months sober, I was 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:41.320 going to pick up a drink. 00:12:41.890 --> 00:12:42.340 Okay. 00:12:42.400 --> 00:12:45.130 I decided I was gonna go into a bottle shop, dangerous 00:12:45.130 --> 00:12:47.260 moment, and buy a six pack. 00:12:48.550 --> 00:12:49.030 Oof. 00:12:49.090 --> 00:12:52.600 I'd been to a job interview for a job, which would've been sitting next 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:54.490 to a train line that was shut down. 00:12:55.030 --> 00:12:58.960 Waiting in case a train came, but there was never gonna be a train that came 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:01.060 because the line was shut down for works. 00:13:01.450 --> 00:13:05.710 And I would've had to sit next to that train line all night on the miraculous 00:13:05.710 --> 00:13:09.820 off chance that a train came and then I could alert people further down the line. 00:13:10.090 --> 00:13:10.960 That was the job. 00:13:11.050 --> 00:13:11.110 Okay. 00:13:11.110 --> 00:13:13.300 I went for this job 'cause the film industry was quiet. 00:13:13.570 --> 00:13:13.660 Mm-hmm. 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:18.280 I did the interview and they said, how much of a priority would the job be? 00:13:18.280 --> 00:13:21.190 And I said, well, after my kids, it'd been my main priority. 00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:22.300 Didn't get the job. 00:13:23.140 --> 00:13:23.410 Yeah. 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.530 So I had to make the trains that weren't coming my main priority. 00:13:26.560 --> 00:13:28.000 I fucked up the interview basically. 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:30.100 So I knew I'd fucked up the interview. 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:31.870 I didn't know how I was gonna pay my rent. 00:13:32.380 --> 00:13:35.230 I was driving home, it was like 11 in the morning. 00:13:35.230 --> 00:13:36.850 Beautiful sunny day in Preston. 00:13:37.450 --> 00:13:40.120 I pulled into Woolworths there. 00:13:40.870 --> 00:13:45.130 I've been doing addiction recovery, 12 step stuff for a year and a half. 00:13:45.970 --> 00:13:49.660 I was trying to have a, a spiritual experience with a higher power. 00:13:50.140 --> 00:13:54.160 I sat in the car and I said, God, if you're up there. 00:13:54.565 --> 00:13:55.855 Or wherever you are. 00:13:56.515 --> 00:14:00.835 Uh, I'm about to go and buy a six pack and then I'm gonna drink it, and then I 00:14:00.835 --> 00:14:02.305 don't know what I'm gonna do after that. 00:14:02.665 --> 00:14:06.595 If you actually exist, please give me a sign Yeah. 00:14:06.775 --> 00:14:10.435 That you exist and I shouldn't drink. 00:14:10.975 --> 00:14:12.535 And then I walked into the supermarket. 00:14:12.535 --> 00:14:13.645 You you surrendered control. 00:14:13.735 --> 00:14:15.205 Yeah, I surrendered control. 00:14:15.205 --> 00:14:16.375 I walked into the supermarket. 00:14:16.375 --> 00:14:17.305 It was a big supermarket. 00:14:17.305 --> 00:14:18.445 There was like 20 aisles. 00:14:18.445 --> 00:14:19.795 And at the end was a bottle shop. 00:14:20.395 --> 00:14:25.105 And I started walking along the aisles and I got to the fourth last aisle 00:14:25.105 --> 00:14:30.085 and someone from AA was there and they looked up and they made eye contact with 00:14:30.085 --> 00:14:32.455 me and I made eye contact with them. 00:14:33.715 --> 00:14:35.515 And I turned around and I walked out. 00:14:35.785 --> 00:14:37.225 I asked God for a sign. 00:14:37.645 --> 00:14:41.005 A sign was given, and I haven't had a drink since. 00:14:41.005 --> 00:14:43.075 And that's coming up on 10 years without a drink. 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:45.310 And that was at the 18 month mark. 00:14:45.310 --> 00:14:47.770 So I could have been drinking for most of the last 10 years, 00:14:47.770 --> 00:14:51.220 which I think would've safely say would've been fairly disastrous. 00:14:51.340 --> 00:14:52.060 Oh, indeed. 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.490 So was that a coincidence? 00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:56.620 An atheist would say that was just a coincidence. 00:14:56.620 --> 00:15:00.250 I asked God for a sign, someone was put between me and a bottle shop. 00:15:00.631 --> 00:15:04.801 So the higher Christians would say, in that case, they would say, uh, 00:15:04.801 --> 00:15:09.520 of you seeing someone there that reminded you of your mission, they 00:15:09.520 --> 00:15:10.780 would say it's Krishna's arrangement. 00:15:11.350 --> 00:15:11.710 Right? 00:15:11.770 --> 00:15:12.850 So that answers your question. 00:15:12.850 --> 00:15:13.150 Yep. 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:14.530 God put that person there. 00:15:14.530 --> 00:15:15.070 Mm-hmm. 00:15:15.465 --> 00:15:15.685 Now. 00:15:16.735 --> 00:15:19.495 They also talked a lot about, obviously Hara, Krishna, the Hindus, 00:15:19.495 --> 00:15:21.265 they talk about karma, right? 00:15:21.265 --> 00:15:22.345 And reincarnation. 00:15:22.405 --> 00:15:27.865 So they, they say, you know, karma and re reincarnation go hand in hand. 00:15:28.195 --> 00:15:29.965 They're both problematic doctrines in different ways, 00:15:29.965 --> 00:15:31.795 but they, they are, they are. 00:15:31.855 --> 00:15:33.685 You need to put them together for it to make sense. 00:15:34.645 --> 00:15:39.154 So if you've got karma there, you don't even need to say, God did this. 00:15:39.154 --> 00:15:40.504 So it's a little bit more sophisticated. 00:15:40.714 --> 00:15:45.814 Your good karma was to have someone there remind you why, probably 00:15:45.814 --> 00:15:47.194 'cause you reminded someone else. 00:15:47.764 --> 00:15:48.304 So it. 00:15:49.204 --> 00:15:52.144 The cosmic higher meaning of it can be as simple as that. 00:15:52.534 --> 00:15:55.804 You looked out for someone, someone looked out for you, don't 00:15:55.804 --> 00:15:57.064 you think that's good enough? 00:15:57.574 --> 00:16:02.854 And ah, and then, and then years later I, I got the sudden urge to, so you 00:16:02.854 --> 00:16:06.724 might have to live many lives before you become perfected and just go with it. 00:16:06.784 --> 00:16:07.774 Well, yeah. 00:16:07.984 --> 00:16:09.094 Sudden urge to, you know. 00:16:09.274 --> 00:16:09.904 Yeah. 00:16:09.964 --> 00:16:14.494 So years later I got the urge, sudden urge to go to a local football game. 00:16:15.214 --> 00:16:15.574 Sure. 00:16:15.604 --> 00:16:17.674 And I went to a local football game. 00:16:17.674 --> 00:16:18.844 They tend to be boozy affairs. 00:16:19.144 --> 00:16:19.684 Yeah. 00:16:20.044 --> 00:16:25.234 And I ran into someone from my secret addiction recovery world. 00:16:25.239 --> 00:16:25.289 Mm-hmm. 00:16:26.014 --> 00:16:30.274 And he was like, oh, so nice to see you here, man. 00:16:30.754 --> 00:16:31.624 What are you doing here? 00:16:31.624 --> 00:16:33.394 And I'm like, I don't know why I'm here. 00:16:33.754 --> 00:16:38.164 And he is like, oh, I was just having a hard time because it's such a boozy, this 00:16:38.164 --> 00:16:42.124 is my first time I've come back to my football club since I stopped drinking. 00:16:42.694 --> 00:16:48.934 And it's such a boozy affair and it's really nice to run into someone that I 00:16:48.934 --> 00:16:51.274 can that is like share an experience with. 00:16:51.274 --> 00:16:51.874 Yeah. 00:16:51.874 --> 00:16:51.875 Yeah. 00:16:51.934 --> 00:16:56.434 So I, I was that person for someone else years later. 00:16:57.124 --> 00:16:59.674 This is the cosmic order that I think I can get with. 00:16:59.704 --> 00:17:03.034 So this, these are concrete things that have happened Yes. 00:17:03.064 --> 00:17:03.574 In my life. 00:17:03.574 --> 00:17:07.564 And you can see how I started to not believe in coincidences anymore. 00:17:07.717 --> 00:17:09.907 So that was another coincidence, right? 00:17:09.907 --> 00:17:10.297 Oh, yes. 00:17:10.297 --> 00:17:13.507 You're not believing, it's just pure chance that that 00:17:13.837 --> 00:17:15.187 of no meaning intrinsically. 00:17:15.187 --> 00:17:16.057 Oh, yes, yes. 00:17:16.087 --> 00:17:16.807 No, I understand. 00:17:16.837 --> 00:17:19.147 Whereas a strict atheist would say, no, no. 00:17:19.147 --> 00:17:21.547 That was also just completely random and. 00:17:22.207 --> 00:17:23.497 There is no meaning to that. 00:17:23.857 --> 00:17:24.637 Yeah, but you know what? 00:17:25.087 --> 00:17:28.807 I think of those people as one dimensional atheists and I, the, the ones I like. 00:17:28.837 --> 00:17:29.707 It's the same with reli. 00:17:29.737 --> 00:17:32.947 It's the same with, you know, theistic types and atheistic types. 00:17:33.787 --> 00:17:40.087 I don't like the ones that are really super resolute and lack imagination 00:17:40.087 --> 00:17:44.077 and get annoyed about any kind of conversation out of the lane at all. 00:17:44.317 --> 00:17:48.187 I think it shows a lack of curiosity and I think it also in both cases 00:17:48.187 --> 00:17:49.897 can show a bit of an insecurity. 00:17:49.927 --> 00:17:50.167 Mm. 00:17:50.197 --> 00:17:50.887 In their intellect. 00:17:51.037 --> 00:17:51.097 Yeah. 00:17:51.097 --> 00:17:54.185 It's like, it's like people that get bothered, this is something you 00:17:54.185 --> 00:17:55.565 come across a lot less these days. 00:17:56.315 --> 00:18:00.868 It's like that old thing about like guys that got positive, if they. 00:18:01.168 --> 00:18:04.888 F found that they looked at another man and felt some sort of 00:18:04.888 --> 00:18:09.328 appreciation aesthetically, it's like, holy fuck what's happening to me? 00:18:09.328 --> 00:18:10.133 It's George Stanza. 00:18:10.133 --> 00:18:10.493 It moved. 00:18:10.738 --> 00:18:11.938 Yeah, it mo it moved. 00:18:11.938 --> 00:18:12.418 It moved. 00:18:12.478 --> 00:18:13.228 Yeah, exactly. 00:18:13.498 --> 00:18:14.788 And it's like, it's, no, no, no. 00:18:14.788 --> 00:18:16.408 This is just an ordinary occurrence. 00:18:16.408 --> 00:18:19.558 Like we're complex beings with layers and layers of shit going on. 00:18:19.618 --> 00:18:22.618 And it, if you expect everything to be simple and straightforward and just 00:18:22.618 --> 00:18:25.408 so, and everything's definitive and in categories, well, yeah, fuck, you're 00:18:25.408 --> 00:18:26.638 gonna be disappointed constantly. 00:18:26.638 --> 00:18:27.628 'cause life's not like that. 00:18:27.628 --> 00:18:29.878 Oh, I have bizarre thoughts all the time that, oh, yeah. 00:18:30.058 --> 00:18:33.838 But now from meditation and seeing thoughts, that's just thoughts 00:18:34.138 --> 00:18:35.878 passing by in a constant stream. 00:18:36.418 --> 00:18:38.638 I can have the weirdest fucking thought ever and just be like, 00:18:38.728 --> 00:18:40.348 oh, that's, that's passing by. 00:18:40.348 --> 00:18:41.218 It's on its way. 00:18:41.278 --> 00:18:42.418 And then it'll just be gone. 00:18:42.423 --> 00:18:42.493 Yeah. 00:18:42.658 --> 00:18:42.928 Yeah. 00:18:42.928 --> 00:18:45.268 And I don't feel, I don't feel like I've been scathing enough of the Hara 00:18:45.268 --> 00:18:48.928 Christians, but you've just reminded me of something that sometimes when 00:18:48.928 --> 00:18:50.728 people said it's God's arrangement. 00:18:50.887 --> 00:18:52.897 it, it seemed a bit simple-minded to me. 00:18:52.957 --> 00:18:53.557 I like that. 00:18:53.557 --> 00:18:54.457 God's arrangement. 00:18:54.487 --> 00:18:54.847 Yeah. 00:18:54.847 --> 00:18:55.747 Christian's arrangement. 00:18:56.047 --> 00:18:58.777 Yeah, I, I would agree with that from those two experiences I had. 00:18:58.777 --> 00:18:59.317 That's right. 00:18:59.317 --> 00:19:03.127 But what I eventually realized is just like you got simple-minded atheists and 00:19:03.127 --> 00:19:08.467 simple-minded believers that actually, just like with head sexuality, most 00:19:08.467 --> 00:19:13.267 people are not entirely, uh, I dunno, I'm really drawn to this analogy between 00:19:13.267 --> 00:19:16.987 sexuality and religious experience, be I, I, I feel like it's tied up somehow, 00:19:16.987 --> 00:19:23.117 but like, not, not strictly correlated, it's a similarly difficult and indefinable 00:19:23.117 --> 00:19:25.037 and slippery area is what I'm saying. 00:19:25.202 --> 00:19:30.077 And that these two extremes on the spectrum of like completely hetero, 00:19:30.077 --> 00:19:33.587 completely homosexual, that that's actually, most people aren't. 00:19:33.947 --> 00:19:37.517 And I think the, the same thing applies to being completely 00:19:37.517 --> 00:19:39.227 materialistic, completely theistic. 00:19:39.737 --> 00:19:44.237 And so there's a lot of room to think about what it means. 00:19:44.612 --> 00:19:47.522 Uh, to have these sorts of experiences and it's a good thing. 00:19:47.822 --> 00:19:52.232 Well, and there high Christians that were a bit more subtle and would look at that 00:19:52.232 --> 00:19:54.933 story and say, you got what you needed. 00:19:55.143 --> 00:19:55.803 Yeah. 00:19:55.923 --> 00:19:56.973 And isn't that enough? 00:19:57.873 --> 00:19:58.383 Yeah. 00:19:58.383 --> 00:20:00.543 And I guess I'm thinking about it now, which I've never 00:20:00.543 --> 00:20:01.923 thought about this story before. 00:20:01.923 --> 00:20:05.403 I've told it many times, uh, in the secret world. 00:20:05.523 --> 00:20:05.793 Mm. 00:20:05.943 --> 00:20:11.569 But what if I drank that six pack, got a hangover next day, woke up and 00:20:11.569 --> 00:20:13.069 said, no, I don't want to drink again. 00:20:13.549 --> 00:20:16.639 That could've, I don't have to assume I would've drank for the last 10 years. 00:20:16.699 --> 00:20:21.545 No, but the difference is like, I can't, I I had never 00:20:21.545 --> 00:20:24.365 bothered asking God for a sign. 00:20:24.785 --> 00:20:26.975 And the weirdest thing is, can I Well, why not? 00:20:27.755 --> 00:20:29.015 Because I'd never believed. 00:20:29.045 --> 00:20:29.285 Sure. 00:20:29.315 --> 00:20:32.615 But I was trying to believe, yeah, placebos don't work if you don't believe. 00:20:32.795 --> 00:20:33.155 Yeah. 00:20:33.155 --> 00:20:34.415 I was trying to believe. 00:20:34.415 --> 00:20:36.785 So I asked God for a sign and, and you know what? 00:20:36.785 --> 00:20:38.315 I've never asked for another one since. 00:20:38.601 --> 00:20:39.261 Is that weird? 00:20:39.651 --> 00:20:39.771 No. 00:20:39.771 --> 00:20:42.951 Like you think I'd be like a next week, I'd be like, oh, gimme 00:20:42.951 --> 00:20:44.271 another sign about, you know. 00:20:44.271 --> 00:20:45.686 Well, it's not, no, no, no, no. 00:20:45.686 --> 00:20:46.371 It's, it's not weird. 00:20:46.371 --> 00:20:49.641 It's actually very sensible because like I said, some of the more subtle 00:20:49.641 --> 00:20:56.001 thinkers you'll find on either side of the atheism, theism, divide or, uh, in just 00:20:56.001 --> 00:20:59.931 about any debate, there's always those subtle thinkers in there somewhere that 00:21:00.201 --> 00:21:01.911 are able to kind of go No, no, no, no. 00:21:02.691 --> 00:21:03.441 It makes sense. 00:21:03.501 --> 00:21:06.201 And one of the things that I came across from some of the more 00:21:06.201 --> 00:21:10.507 reasonable thinkers in the highs was like, yeah, like Christian's 00:21:10.507 --> 00:21:14.227 gonna sort you out and hook you up occasionally, but like, don't be greedy. 00:21:14.647 --> 00:21:15.157 Yeah. 00:21:15.157 --> 00:21:16.237 You know, it's felt like that. 00:21:16.267 --> 00:21:17.052 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:21:17.057 --> 00:21:18.637 Don't, don't be calling on it too much. 00:21:18.637 --> 00:21:19.292 And like, yeah. 00:21:19.297 --> 00:21:19.597 Yeah. 00:21:19.687 --> 00:21:21.727 That experience also makes me think of another thing. 00:21:21.727 --> 00:21:23.227 Jesus is not your delivery service. 00:21:23.227 --> 00:21:24.247 Yeah, that's right. 00:21:24.307 --> 00:21:24.427 Yeah. 00:21:24.427 --> 00:21:27.367 And that experience also makes me think of another thing, which is 00:21:27.427 --> 00:21:28.897 friend of the show, Huma Inlay. 00:21:29.377 --> 00:21:29.617 Yeah. 00:21:29.647 --> 00:21:35.407 Who's also a Catholic would say about experience like that is there's two types 00:21:35.407 --> 00:21:37.297 of people when confronted with a mystery. 00:21:37.717 --> 00:21:37.897 Yeah. 00:21:37.927 --> 00:21:41.767 Those who wanna solve the mystery uhhuh and those that just can be in awe of it. 00:21:42.007 --> 00:21:42.367 Sure. 00:21:42.427 --> 00:21:45.277 And I think that's an awestruck moment for me. 00:21:45.375 --> 00:21:51.075 but if I want to, I keep unraveling as in I can't believe there's a higher 00:21:51.075 --> 00:21:54.255 purpose, which is where I'm at now. 00:21:54.255 --> 00:21:58.425 And if I keep unraveling, then I could go back and be like, oh dude, 00:21:58.485 --> 00:22:00.135 you just had a random coincidence. 00:22:00.135 --> 00:22:01.305 You ask God for a sign. 00:22:01.305 --> 00:22:04.756 There happened to be someone, shopping at that exact moment. 00:22:05.026 --> 00:22:08.146 And you, you've freaked out about it ever since. 00:22:08.146 --> 00:22:10.786 But actually it was just complete chance. 00:22:11.056 --> 00:22:15.346 And now you can go and get your a atheist membership card again. 00:22:15.766 --> 00:22:15.976 Yeah. 00:22:15.976 --> 00:22:16.336 No, no. 00:22:16.336 --> 00:22:18.826 See, I would, I would And stop meditating and stop doing a different 00:22:18.826 --> 00:22:20.601 diction recovery work and just Yeah. 00:22:20.606 --> 00:22:21.106 Yeah. 00:22:21.166 --> 00:22:23.026 Be a real concrete kind of guy again. 00:22:23.031 --> 00:22:23.746 No, no. 00:22:23.746 --> 00:22:24.946 I'm, I'm gonna advise against. 00:22:25.396 --> 00:22:29.296 Going, I have to leave one camp and join another, you know, looking, maybe 00:22:29.296 --> 00:22:33.796 it's 'cause I'm a fence sitter, but like, I actually, I don't think in my 00:22:33.796 --> 00:22:38.296 case or that all the people I know that are like, Hmm, maybe, maybe not about 00:22:38.296 --> 00:22:42.376 a lot of things that I don't think that this is a lack of decisiveness. 00:22:42.586 --> 00:22:46.855 I think it's kind of where we're meant to be and the demand that we, oh, 00:22:46.855 --> 00:22:48.025 I've just gotta bloody pick a camp. 00:22:48.025 --> 00:22:50.635 I've gotta be somewhere, I've gotta make things definitive. 00:22:50.875 --> 00:22:54.415 I think that's, you know, I think it's something we have to resist and overcome. 00:22:54.415 --> 00:22:54.475 Yeah. 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.985 And like, and, and get to a place of just like letting go of That 00:22:57.985 --> 00:22:59.815 was five years of therapy was Yeah. 00:22:59.905 --> 00:23:02.995 I finally went in before I, I've taken a break now, but 00:23:02.995 --> 00:23:05.125 before I went on a break mm-hmm. 00:23:05.425 --> 00:23:08.215 I went in there and I just kept talking about the gray area. 00:23:08.695 --> 00:23:08.965 Yeah. 00:23:09.055 --> 00:23:11.995 Because I'm the most, Sam, you know me pretty well. 00:23:11.995 --> 00:23:14.815 I feel like I'm the most black and white thinker of anyone I know. 00:23:15.250 --> 00:23:17.260 I'm the most binary you can be. 00:23:17.320 --> 00:23:17.380 Yeah. 00:23:17.380 --> 00:23:17.920 On off. 00:23:17.950 --> 00:23:18.400 It's true. 00:23:18.460 --> 00:23:20.775 Like black and white about the, and you can be impatient with 00:23:20.775 --> 00:23:22.510 subtleties and gray areas for sure. 00:23:22.515 --> 00:23:22.535 Yeah. 00:23:22.540 --> 00:23:22.720 Yeah. 00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:26.426 So I went in and I had this therapy session where I was like a, I was 00:23:26.426 --> 00:23:30.026 quoting chat GPTA lot 'cause it had given me a lot of good advice. 00:23:30.056 --> 00:23:32.966 But B, I was saying everything's gotta, this relationship's 00:23:32.966 --> 00:23:34.106 gotta be in the gray area. 00:23:34.406 --> 00:23:35.276 This career mm-hmm. 00:23:35.516 --> 00:23:36.956 Has gotta be in this gray area. 00:23:36.961 --> 00:23:37.181 Sure. 00:23:37.316 --> 00:23:39.836 This geopolitics is in a gray area. 00:23:39.866 --> 00:23:40.436 Yeah, you're right. 00:23:40.496 --> 00:23:46.946 Like so I'd finally taken the most important lesson from this very skilled 00:23:47.516 --> 00:23:53.426 and wise therapist, which was stay in the gray area, stay in the ordinary place. 00:23:53.426 --> 00:23:53.786 Yeah. 00:23:53.816 --> 00:23:55.796 But, but see that's what I mean. 00:23:55.796 --> 00:23:58.676 It's like now I'm in this place of doubt. 00:23:59.126 --> 00:24:00.416 And maybe it's a natural thing. 00:24:00.506 --> 00:24:01.406 No doubt is ordinary. 00:24:01.496 --> 00:24:02.126 Yeah, yeah. 00:24:02.126 --> 00:24:05.726 But at the 10 year mark of a spiritual journey, maybe you wanted more. 00:24:06.806 --> 00:24:10.706 Well, maybe it's a natural evolution to come to a place of doubt. 00:24:10.826 --> 00:24:14.576 and maybe I will end up more of an agnostic because I haven't, I 00:24:14.576 --> 00:24:16.316 switched from atheist to believer. 00:24:16.316 --> 00:24:18.356 I never spent any time as an agnostic. 00:24:18.361 --> 00:24:18.562 Yeah, yeah. 00:24:18.567 --> 00:24:20.006 You didn't, you didn't hang around the middle. 00:24:20.006 --> 00:24:22.016 And that's, that's how conversions, you know, that's 00:24:22.016 --> 00:24:23.606 what the ene conversion, the St. 00:24:23.606 --> 00:24:24.416 Paul conversion. 00:24:24.416 --> 00:24:28.616 It's, that's why that story is so compelling because it, it, it 00:24:28.616 --> 00:24:33.656 looks as though it's instant and, and 180 just like in a moment. 00:24:33.656 --> 00:24:37.256 And it is that the way the story is told, but there's a lot of layers 00:24:37.256 --> 00:24:43.520 of subtlety to it and that he was very much struggling with himself. 00:24:43.520 --> 00:24:43.700 Right. 00:24:43.700 --> 00:24:46.490 So whatever biographical information I've been able to come across, 00:24:46.490 --> 00:24:47.690 there seems to be a lot of it. 00:24:48.380 --> 00:24:52.160 But the consensus I hear from Bible scholars is that he was very much 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:57.260 struggling with a lot of the things you would relate to obsessiveness. 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:06.740 Desire, uh, uh, is it unquenchable desire and, and, uh, and resentment and black 00:25:06.740 --> 00:25:09.500 and white thinking and all of that stuff. 00:25:09.500 --> 00:25:10.130 In other words, St. 00:25:10.130 --> 00:25:14.000 Paul was sort of your average addict and neurotic. 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:14.990 Mm-hmm. 00:25:15.530 --> 00:25:18.590 And back then they didn't have therapy. 00:25:18.639 --> 00:25:21.268 but religious conversion was actually a common route out 00:25:21.538 --> 00:25:23.548 of, uh, addiction and neurosis. 00:25:23.548 --> 00:25:28.558 And it, it remains one today for so many people because it's not like you do your 00:25:28.558 --> 00:25:30.388 conversion and then the work is done. 00:25:30.868 --> 00:25:34.288 No, the work begins at last, but Oh, but no, it doesn't begin. 00:25:34.348 --> 00:25:38.278 The work began before that, that every time he doubted what he was doing on 00:25:38.278 --> 00:25:41.458 behalf of the Roman Empire, of, you know, oppressing these Christians 00:25:42.598 --> 00:25:43.708 who for the most part seemed okay. 00:25:44.158 --> 00:25:47.878 People, um, who were just sort of trying to look out for each other and then, 00:25:47.878 --> 00:25:51.898 so to go from like they're the enemy and must be stopped seemingly overnight 00:25:52.318 --> 00:25:55.708 to then saying, this is the way and. 00:25:55.837 --> 00:25:59.504 all the beautiful things he says in the letters, like, neither, neither 00:25:59.504 --> 00:26:04.094 man nor woman, neither slave nor free person, neither Jew nor Gentile. 00:26:04.124 --> 00:26:07.664 You are all one now in, in Jesus. 00:26:07.664 --> 00:26:11.534 Now, that's the part I struggle with, but like it's a superb formulation of human 00:26:11.534 --> 00:26:17.084 equality and that we need to let go of these sort of illusions of, of one person 00:26:17.084 --> 00:26:19.634 is better than another, intrinsically, and we have to love one another. 00:26:19.634 --> 00:26:23.954 And the greatest sin is to not be there properly for each other and 00:26:23.954 --> 00:26:25.514 not properly be there in the moment. 00:26:25.634 --> 00:26:27.674 Did you, it's not about following the laws and doctrines. 00:26:27.674 --> 00:26:32.654 Did you, you know, did, did there come a time in your life where you said. 00:26:33.719 --> 00:26:34.319 Okay. 00:26:34.379 --> 00:26:37.529 I was raised Hari Krishna, but I'm turning my back on it now. 00:26:37.829 --> 00:26:40.139 Like a Yeah, there was no definitive moment. 00:26:40.139 --> 00:26:42.329 It was, but you fade, you faded out from it. 00:26:42.389 --> 00:26:45.359 It was a gradual thing and like, it doesn't mean I won't go back there. 00:26:45.389 --> 00:26:46.409 Yeah, you could go back. 00:26:46.589 --> 00:26:48.869 But what I'm trying to say about this story of conversion, which helps 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:53.339 you and me, but is that I think that these things actually happened much 00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:57.599 more gradually than the narrative has it, and that the sort of cinematic 00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:59.699 version of events isn't the real one. 00:26:59.699 --> 00:27:02.249 And this cinema reveals important things to us. 00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:07.739 But as you know, as we both know, real life simultaneously much less interesting 00:27:07.739 --> 00:27:09.239 and much more interesting than cinema. 00:27:09.659 --> 00:27:15.539 And that this idea that you flip from being this to that, and then 00:27:16.139 --> 00:27:20.879 the only, the only next step is stay resolutely that forever. 00:27:20.879 --> 00:27:25.349 And if do not permit the slightest doubt or you will flip to the other polarity. 00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:25.739 Yes. 00:27:25.739 --> 00:27:25.740 Yes. 00:27:26.009 --> 00:27:26.879 That's where I'm at now. 00:27:26.879 --> 00:27:27.090 No, no, no. 00:27:27.629 --> 00:27:31.019 What, what the Paul, what Paul's story is designed to illustrate what I'm 00:27:31.019 --> 00:27:32.759 trying to say here with it is that. 00:27:33.494 --> 00:27:34.874 The work was already begun. 00:27:35.174 --> 00:27:38.714 The work continued, but with like a new consciousness of what it was. 00:27:39.434 --> 00:27:43.304 And then in, in the process of doing the work, the mission 00:27:43.304 --> 00:27:50.564 changes and the messy swamp of praxis changes you and it changes. 00:27:50.774 --> 00:27:52.484 And you have to deal with that as you go through. 00:27:52.484 --> 00:27:54.554 And that never a settled question. 00:27:54.884 --> 00:27:59.714 And if you actually look at the, uh, if you look at all the available doctrines, 00:28:00.194 --> 00:28:03.794 they all hint at this in various ways or say it quite bluntly here and there that 00:28:03.794 --> 00:28:08.564 this isn't a settled question and don't expect it to be, uh, to always be obvious. 00:28:08.564 --> 00:28:11.264 Now, this is also a theological get outta jail free card, right? 00:28:11.924 --> 00:28:16.334 But I, but I also think it's genuine and that one of the solutions to this 00:28:16.334 --> 00:28:20.234 particular dilemma here is to actually go, it's actually a false dilemma. 00:28:20.294 --> 00:28:21.464 So that's one solution. 00:28:21.712 --> 00:28:26.002 And then there's another, which I think is maybe more useful for you 00:28:26.362 --> 00:28:29.986 is to adjust your theology a bit. 00:28:31.066 --> 00:28:35.236 And I don't mean in like a super intellectual way, but for 00:28:35.236 --> 00:28:36.526 example, Christian's arrangement. 00:28:36.526 --> 00:28:36.826 Right. 00:28:36.856 --> 00:28:39.106 Does that require the direct intervention of God? 00:28:39.196 --> 00:28:42.902 So the direct intervention of God creates all sorts of theological and practical 00:28:42.902 --> 00:28:44.492 and philosophical problems, right? 00:28:44.533 --> 00:28:47.383 it, it, it brings up sort of problems like, why didn't God intervene 00:28:47.383 --> 00:28:48.883 in this case instead of that one? 00:28:48.883 --> 00:28:49.243 Oh yeah. 00:28:49.333 --> 00:28:53.233 And then, and then we have to hand wave those problems away by saying, uh, 00:28:53.233 --> 00:28:54.613 well, whoa, well we can't understand. 00:28:54.673 --> 00:28:55.573 But that was, yeah. 00:28:55.573 --> 00:28:59.803 I mean, that was when, when Ramdas was hanging out with his guru. 00:28:59.893 --> 00:29:00.193 Yeah. 00:29:00.463 --> 00:29:03.043 And there was a famine in Bangladesh. 00:29:03.073 --> 00:29:03.583 Horrible. 00:29:03.763 --> 00:29:08.353 And Ramdas wanted to go and take his van and use it as an ambulance. 00:29:08.353 --> 00:29:08.743 Sure. 00:29:08.983 --> 00:29:11.683 And his guru said, can't you see? 00:29:11.683 --> 00:29:12.553 It's all perfect? 00:29:14.383 --> 00:29:17.023 And that same guru would say the same about Gaza Now. 00:29:17.443 --> 00:29:18.523 Maybe can't you see? 00:29:18.568 --> 00:29:19.168 It's all perfect. 00:29:19.788 --> 00:29:23.323 That's the point about each snowflake falling in its appropriate 00:29:23.323 --> 00:29:25.033 price is you have to, yeah. 00:29:25.303 --> 00:29:28.993 You then have to accept that everything that's happening is happening right now. 00:29:29.203 --> 00:29:29.413 Yeah. 00:29:29.413 --> 00:29:30.703 And this is exactly as it should be. 00:29:30.703 --> 00:29:32.443 Totally with God's hand. 00:29:32.503 --> 00:29:37.243 And this is why institutionally religious people, uh, especially fundamentalists, 00:29:37.573 --> 00:29:42.013 will tend to either reject politics, not just as a way to achieve anything 00:29:42.013 --> 00:29:46.273 useful, but reject it on its premise that it shouldn't even exist. 00:29:46.303 --> 00:29:47.563 That God has laid out the laws. 00:29:47.563 --> 00:29:49.243 We don't need to contest anything. 00:29:49.693 --> 00:29:52.393 Now, obviously I can't go with that. 00:29:52.873 --> 00:29:56.173 The idea that we've got all this agency, but, but not really. 00:29:56.413 --> 00:29:57.643 And just let God take care of things. 00:29:57.643 --> 00:29:58.993 It's, to me, that's unacceptable. 00:29:59.263 --> 00:30:02.473 And, you know, oh, a person's about to tip toxic waste in a river. 00:30:03.013 --> 00:30:03.343 No. 00:30:03.703 --> 00:30:05.953 Go over there and slap 'em on the wrist. 00:30:06.403 --> 00:30:08.473 Take away the toxic waste and go here. 00:30:08.473 --> 00:30:10.153 You're gonna pay for its safe disposal. 00:30:10.393 --> 00:30:12.223 That is the use of human agency. 00:30:12.253 --> 00:30:14.383 But that, that could be God's will too. 00:30:15.043 --> 00:30:16.033 Well, exactly right. 00:30:16.153 --> 00:30:18.433 So it doesn't settle the matter either way. 00:30:18.703 --> 00:30:22.153 And the people that want it to settle the matter either way are usually 00:30:22.153 --> 00:30:25.333 trying to avoid something or deny something, or I mean, the existence 00:30:25.333 --> 00:30:29.202 of suffering, the existence of suffering, which has always been with 00:30:29.202 --> 00:30:30.942 us and will always be with us mm-hmm. 00:30:31.362 --> 00:30:33.437 Does not prove or disprove God. 00:30:33.737 --> 00:30:34.972 No, no, that's what I'm saying. 00:30:34.972 --> 00:30:41.302 But, but yeah, for, for the average 18-year-old atheist, they would say 00:30:42.352 --> 00:30:45.952 what's happening in Gaza means that if there's a God, he's a real cunt. 00:30:46.912 --> 00:30:49.852 You know, like that's to the extent God has anything to do with what humans do. 00:30:49.852 --> 00:30:49.912 Yeah. 00:30:50.872 --> 00:30:51.142 Right. 00:30:51.232 --> 00:30:51.742 Yeah. 00:30:51.802 --> 00:30:56.782 But, but see, I, my experience of God was someone between me and the bottle shop. 00:30:56.782 --> 00:30:58.492 So that's an interventionist God. 00:30:58.822 --> 00:30:59.152 Yes. 00:30:59.157 --> 00:31:01.882 But, but, but I mean, I don't know how Christian's arrangement works, 00:31:01.882 --> 00:31:07.252 but I took it to be, fuck there's a God and it's gonna help me in my life. 00:31:07.252 --> 00:31:07.522 Right? 00:31:07.822 --> 00:31:09.232 So this is where it gets more interesting. 00:31:09.232 --> 00:31:13.312 So the higher Christians also their doctrine, you know, sort of Hindu doctrine 00:31:13.372 --> 00:31:14.902 from the Bugger Gita and the Vaders. 00:31:14.902 --> 00:31:19.263 It does, uh, it contains all sorts of theoretically answers 00:31:19.263 --> 00:31:20.223 to this question, right? 00:31:20.223 --> 00:31:22.293 But they also have to deal with the problem of evil. 00:31:22.473 --> 00:31:25.743 And they also have to hand wave occasionally and go, well, we can't always 00:31:25.743 --> 00:31:27.573 understand Krishna's purpose, right? 00:31:27.933 --> 00:31:31.023 So they end up in that same dilemma, but their formulation's 00:31:31.023 --> 00:31:32.223 a little bit more sophisticated. 00:31:32.223 --> 00:31:35.283 And so it, it, I think it works a bit better. 00:31:35.883 --> 00:31:39.273 And it's like, and you'll come across Christians that see it in 00:31:39.273 --> 00:31:44.733 this more subtle way too, that it's not Christian acting directly. 00:31:45.633 --> 00:31:48.108 He's acting through, I would say his expansions, but no, 00:31:48.138 --> 00:31:49.878 their expansions 'cause it's a. 00:31:50.388 --> 00:31:52.668 Gender non-binary situation really. 00:31:53.208 --> 00:31:58.908 And there's like these en, there's these two energies at work in creation 00:31:59.148 --> 00:32:03.478 and that it's not God intervening directly, but God's energy is 00:32:03.478 --> 00:32:07.768 spread out through everything God is ever present and et cetera. 00:32:08.098 --> 00:32:13.198 But also there's a little spark of the absolute perusia inside every one of us. 00:32:13.258 --> 00:32:13.588 Right. 00:32:13.858 --> 00:32:14.158 Yeah. 00:32:14.158 --> 00:32:18.058 And Buddhists can get with that, but I think non-duality says that too. 00:32:18.058 --> 00:32:19.138 EE, exactly. 00:32:19.228 --> 00:32:19.468 Yeah. 00:32:19.468 --> 00:32:23.130 And, and that there is, so whether it's like the literal Harry Krishna 00:32:23.130 --> 00:32:26.370 painting of like a little Vishnu inside everyone's heart surrounded by 00:32:26.370 --> 00:32:29.790 a little halo, which is, you know, sort of laughably literal or whether it's 00:32:29.790 --> 00:32:36.011 something a bit more Buddhist and, uh, ti uh, non jewel, which is sort of like. 00:32:36.376 --> 00:32:37.816 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:32:37.816 --> 00:32:41.806 The, your, the, there's the essence of the university in, in all of us, right? 00:32:41.806 --> 00:32:42.196 Yes. 00:32:42.286 --> 00:32:44.416 And we merge with the one sooner or later, right? 00:32:44.416 --> 00:32:44.656 Yes. 00:32:44.716 --> 00:32:47.536 That thing, well, that's where, why Ramed US says we're all 00:32:47.536 --> 00:32:48.826 just working each other home. 00:32:49.306 --> 00:32:49.726 Correct. 00:32:49.726 --> 00:32:52.696 Because we'll merge with the one So Christian's arrangement again 00:32:52.696 --> 00:32:54.871 that I'm, see, I'm struggling to come in terms with that. 00:32:54.871 --> 00:32:56.191 I don't, I can help you here. 00:32:56.231 --> 00:32:59.116 I I can't make my peace with death either, and I'm, so that's, I'm 00:32:59.146 --> 00:33:00.436 falling back into being an athe. 00:33:00.436 --> 00:33:02.356 No, there's reincarnation, so don't even worry about it. 00:33:02.956 --> 00:33:04.726 The bad news and the good news is you have to do this again. 00:33:04.726 --> 00:33:04.786 Yeah. 00:33:04.786 --> 00:33:08.116 I mean, that's the other option for me, Sam, is to, for the first 00:33:08.116 --> 00:33:10.186 time in my life, join a religion. 00:33:10.816 --> 00:33:13.216 And the religion I would join would be Buddhism. 00:33:13.636 --> 00:33:13.816 Sure. 00:33:13.816 --> 00:33:15.916 And I'm seriously contemplating it. 00:33:15.976 --> 00:33:19.546 And then I might get some reincarnation on online. 00:33:19.576 --> 00:33:19.966 Yes. 00:33:20.296 --> 00:33:23.206 And that could help me with what Ramdas is saying, which is we're 00:33:23.206 --> 00:33:24.676 all just walking each other home. 00:33:25.036 --> 00:33:28.426 Whereas I've always treated death as this thing you have to fight. 00:33:28.786 --> 00:33:29.986 Like no matter what. 00:33:30.346 --> 00:33:30.616 Yeah. 00:33:30.616 --> 00:33:31.606 So where, where I was going. 00:33:31.636 --> 00:33:32.326 Well, that's right. 00:33:32.326 --> 00:33:33.496 So where I was, sorry, I've thrown you. 00:33:33.496 --> 00:33:33.976 No, no. 00:33:33.976 --> 00:33:37.351 And it's a brutal thing to have to deal with the ultimately, like the, 00:33:37.356 --> 00:33:40.576 the problem of evil's bad enough, but the problem of my own death is the 00:33:40.576 --> 00:33:44.356 ultimate evil that really is a great injustice and shouldn't, shouldn't exist. 00:33:44.356 --> 00:33:44.626 Right. 00:33:45.076 --> 00:33:47.506 So, so getting, getting past that big one I wanna live on in my 00:33:47.506 --> 00:33:49.071 apartment, not in my work, you know? 00:33:49.071 --> 00:33:49.231 Yeah. 00:33:49.696 --> 00:33:56.086 And like, so I, I'll say, you know, strike one for God, he graded us to die. 00:33:56.086 --> 00:33:56.746 That sucks. 00:33:56.746 --> 00:33:58.486 We're gonna need a good story to deal with this. 00:33:58.546 --> 00:34:00.196 Uh, and well, Harry Christians do. 00:34:00.196 --> 00:34:01.426 They've got a great one ready to go. 00:34:01.666 --> 00:34:02.926 We can maybe get back to that. 00:34:02.956 --> 00:34:06.917 But the energy and the divine is not acting directly. 00:34:07.097 --> 00:34:08.261 It is acting through. 00:34:08.366 --> 00:34:09.236 The good people. 00:34:09.446 --> 00:34:12.686 It's acting through those that believe it's acting through 00:34:12.686 --> 00:34:14.066 those that feel compassionate. 00:34:14.066 --> 00:34:16.136 It's, you know, so there's different qualifiers to it. 00:34:16.526 --> 00:34:17.816 They don't have to be true believers. 00:34:18.656 --> 00:34:21.506 They can just be people that are on the path, which is actually 00:34:21.506 --> 00:34:23.006 how everybody's characterized. 00:34:23.006 --> 00:34:25.242 There is no one who's gotten all the way. 00:34:25.302 --> 00:34:28.782 Yeah, that person I saw in the supermarket, I didn't know them. 00:34:28.962 --> 00:34:29.232 No. 00:34:29.292 --> 00:34:32.622 I just know that I knew that I'd seen him in, in that world and 00:34:32.622 --> 00:34:34.962 they didn't have to be a perfect being to help you in that moment. 00:34:34.962 --> 00:34:37.932 Made eye contact with me, but they didn't say hello 'cause 00:34:37.932 --> 00:34:39.042 we didn't know each other. 00:34:39.702 --> 00:34:41.502 But it was all I, it was enough. 00:34:41.562 --> 00:34:41.802 Yeah. 00:34:42.042 --> 00:34:44.652 Like most people don't get a moment like that, Sam. 00:34:44.712 --> 00:34:48.342 So Krishna acts through his entities, through his creations. 00:34:48.372 --> 00:34:50.052 Well, that's in that world. 00:34:50.052 --> 00:34:54.343 They say coincidences is how, God remains anonymous. 00:34:54.943 --> 00:34:55.163 Yes. 00:34:55.168 --> 00:34:56.038 Yes, exactly. 00:34:56.038 --> 00:34:56.968 Can you dig that one? 00:34:57.028 --> 00:34:57.268 Yeah. 00:34:57.628 --> 00:34:58.618 Oh, a hundred percent sure. 00:34:58.618 --> 00:34:59.968 I mean, that's a great formulation. 00:34:59.968 --> 00:35:01.318 Whatever theologian came up with that. 00:35:01.318 --> 00:35:01.888 Very clever. 00:35:02.128 --> 00:35:02.458 Mm. 00:35:02.463 --> 00:35:05.248 But I, but, but also as Dwight, can I get it as a, as a statement? 00:35:05.248 --> 00:35:06.478 But see, I'm dropping that too. 00:35:06.478 --> 00:35:07.678 I'm dropping the coincidences. 00:35:07.678 --> 00:35:09.268 I'm just like, oh, there's another coincidence. 00:35:09.268 --> 00:35:10.258 Fucking means nothing. 00:35:11.518 --> 00:35:12.868 No, I'm backsliding, man. 00:35:13.168 --> 00:35:17.894 See, see what's, you know what, one of the things that used to bother me about 00:35:17.894 --> 00:35:21.014 the talk of coincidences, you know, again, I'm gonna have a bed each way. 00:35:21.014 --> 00:35:21.344 Right. 00:35:21.764 --> 00:35:25.004 I would get equally annoyed at the people that were like, no, no, no, no. 00:35:25.364 --> 00:35:25.994 Purely random. 00:35:26.279 --> 00:35:29.999 There's enough universe, there's enough time passing for like, enough unlikely 00:35:29.999 --> 00:35:31.709 things to happen to impress the rubes. 00:35:31.964 --> 00:35:32.314 Right? 00:35:32.694 --> 00:35:34.049 And I'm like, sure. 00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:36.959 And then I guess, but then there's the other side, like. 00:35:37.664 --> 00:35:41.204 Which I think is a little too strong of a take either, oh my God, every 00:35:41.204 --> 00:35:44.594 single coincidence am we gonna have, and we're gonna have a really low 00:35:44.594 --> 00:35:48.704 threshold for what constitutes a, a coincidence, like an epic coincidence. 00:35:49.064 --> 00:35:51.524 Uh, and that all of them are of epic significance. 00:35:51.524 --> 00:35:51.584 Yeah. 00:35:51.614 --> 00:35:54.164 And it's like, okay, fuck, can we just go down the middle here somewhere? 00:35:54.164 --> 00:35:58.034 That's the second is where you're getting into a Byron Bay Yes. 00:35:58.064 --> 00:35:59.264 Manifesting everything. 00:35:59.264 --> 00:36:01.124 And then you are over overinterpreting everything. 00:36:01.124 --> 00:36:01.244 Yeah. 00:36:01.244 --> 00:36:04.484 Everything's, and then you end up down conspiracy Absolutely. 00:36:04.484 --> 00:36:07.454 Rabbit holes, and you end up with cons, spirituality, and Absolutely. 00:36:07.664 --> 00:36:10.334 Or no, or in some cases worse than that, you actually end up, 00:36:10.424 --> 00:36:12.524 in some cases you start with that. 00:36:12.524 --> 00:36:15.674 And then strangely enough, a lot of people end up with white supremacy and like, 00:36:15.674 --> 00:36:16.934 let's get women back in the kitchen. 00:36:16.964 --> 00:36:17.054 Yeah. 00:36:17.684 --> 00:36:23.234 You know, that whole, um, how Byron Bay went right wing is just wild. 00:36:23.414 --> 00:36:24.794 No, no, it is wild. 00:36:24.794 --> 00:36:27.494 Until you start to inquire about. 00:36:27.907 --> 00:36:32.047 For example, I asked a friend that I only see very occasionally is very 00:36:32.047 --> 00:36:35.557 bright and is, he's always changed a lot every time and he's always 00:36:35.557 --> 00:36:36.757 moving on and doing new things. 00:36:36.822 --> 00:36:40.697 but like me, retains an interest in history and, uh, of course both of 00:36:40.697 --> 00:36:44.053 us an interest in German history and we've discussed it before many times. 00:36:44.110 --> 00:36:47.479 cause he has ancestors there and identifies as sort of a, you know, 00:36:47.479 --> 00:36:50.659 sort of an expat German grew up in Australia sort of thing, and but 00:36:50.659 --> 00:36:54.469 also identifies as Jewish, uh, you know, at least half or whatever. 00:36:54.593 --> 00:36:57.173 so I put this question to him, you know, I was like, Craig, you know, 00:36:57.173 --> 00:36:58.403 I've thought a lot about fascism. 00:36:58.403 --> 00:36:59.633 You've thought a lot about it. 00:37:00.263 --> 00:37:04.673 And you know, I just wanna say this, I was thinking about it a long time before it 00:37:04.673 --> 00:37:11.003 was cool you guys, and uh, and we often debated, you know, the meaning of it. 00:37:11.003 --> 00:37:13.733 But I think our thoughts aligned frequently, but. 00:37:14.033 --> 00:37:18.053 He was one step ahead of me on this question of like, why the white linen 00:37:18.053 --> 00:37:23.033 people end up fascists so often and hang on, what's a white linen person? 00:37:23.153 --> 00:37:27.443 Oh, you know, it starts with like healthy food and wearing white linen. 00:37:27.443 --> 00:37:28.313 Oh yeah. 00:37:28.313 --> 00:37:30.053 Byron Bay being clean and pure. 00:37:30.173 --> 00:37:30.353 Yeah. 00:37:30.353 --> 00:37:30.653 Right. 00:37:31.103 --> 00:37:33.863 Well, you know this, you remember the sound of music, you know Al Vice? 00:37:33.863 --> 00:37:33.923 Yeah. 00:37:34.373 --> 00:37:35.603 Pure and white, et cetera. 00:37:35.693 --> 00:37:35.933 Yeah. 00:37:35.963 --> 00:37:38.753 So there's a problem with some sort of dedication to purity to begin with. 00:37:38.753 --> 00:37:39.503 That's an issue. 00:37:39.843 --> 00:37:41.613 so that's kind of as far as I'd gotten. 00:37:42.063 --> 00:37:42.603 Okay. 00:37:42.603 --> 00:37:45.363 They're sort of, they wanna be pure and then so that sort of leads to false 00:37:45.363 --> 00:37:49.803 thinking about pure people and that, and he is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:37:50.013 --> 00:37:52.533 Because there's something more fundamental here, Sam, why are they 00:37:52.533 --> 00:37:54.093 thinking like that in the first place? 00:37:54.093 --> 00:37:57.153 And I'm like, Hmm, there's some sort of dissatisfaction. 00:37:57.153 --> 00:37:58.053 Something's not right. 00:37:58.058 --> 00:37:59.043 And, and they're not wrong. 00:37:59.043 --> 00:37:59.643 Right Craig? 00:37:59.643 --> 00:38:00.723 And he's like, no, they're not wrong. 00:38:00.993 --> 00:38:02.703 But what conclusion do they come to? 00:38:03.483 --> 00:38:06.963 And I'm like, I don't know, like everything's wrong, 00:38:06.963 --> 00:38:08.013 I guess is the conclusion. 00:38:08.013 --> 00:38:12.093 And he's like, yeah, basically the fundamental problem with the white linen, 00:38:12.483 --> 00:38:17.763 new age people, the ones that go bad, that is, it's a rejection of modernity. 00:38:17.763 --> 00:38:18.573 Mm-hmm. 00:38:18.633 --> 00:38:20.673 And I'm like, well, they're right to critique it. 00:38:20.793 --> 00:38:21.153 Right? 00:38:21.153 --> 00:38:23.283 And he's like, oh yeah, modernity has many problems, right? 00:38:23.283 --> 00:38:26.943 So do the alternatives, but their premise isn't, there's things 00:38:26.943 --> 00:38:28.443 wrong with modernity, let's fix it. 00:38:28.443 --> 00:38:29.073 It's No, no, no. 00:38:29.283 --> 00:38:33.753 We reject modernity, wholesale, and we're gonna throw the 00:38:33.753 --> 00:38:36.573 car into reverse and go back. 00:38:36.633 --> 00:38:40.173 And it's like, and that's when I started to pick up the thread of the conversation. 00:38:40.173 --> 00:38:40.713 I'm like, okay. 00:38:40.743 --> 00:38:41.043 Okay. 00:38:41.343 --> 00:38:44.553 So anyone who's looked at history now can tell you there is no reverse gear. 00:38:44.793 --> 00:38:45.813 Never ever was. 00:38:46.053 --> 00:38:47.253 You're in the now. 00:38:47.553 --> 00:38:51.213 The future's not determined yet either, but there's no going back. 00:38:51.513 --> 00:38:51.903 Yeah. 00:38:51.963 --> 00:38:55.323 And you might be in a dead end, you might be about to drive off a cliff. 00:38:56.418 --> 00:38:58.158 There might be more than one forward direction. 00:38:58.158 --> 00:39:00.288 Some might be better than others, but it's forward. 00:39:00.593 --> 00:39:01.128 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:39:01.128 --> 00:39:01.908 Nonetheless. 00:39:01.938 --> 00:39:02.208 Yeah. 00:39:02.208 --> 00:39:03.348 And there's no going back. 00:39:03.708 --> 00:39:07.728 And so for us moderns, we have this afflicted consciousness that wants to 00:39:07.728 --> 00:39:09.858 settle this matter one way or the other. 00:39:09.858 --> 00:39:12.866 And I'm like, no, don't try and settle it. 00:39:13.100 --> 00:39:14.390 Don't dismiss signs. 00:39:14.720 --> 00:39:17.450 Don't be like, it's everything either. 00:39:17.570 --> 00:39:19.130 Like, can is that okay? 00:39:19.130 --> 00:39:21.650 You know, it's, it's, it's like almost like, don't dismiss signs. 00:39:21.650 --> 00:39:23.030 Don't dismiss science. 00:39:23.450 --> 00:39:24.110 Exactly. 00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:28.850 And what, you know, the, the, how does the subconscious, even if we just explain 00:39:28.850 --> 00:39:32.300 it purely as subconscious, like let's go, let's go with a science explanation 00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:38.960 for why people find that there are signs, but also they've helped people before. 00:39:39.080 --> 00:39:42.650 Maybe we can scientifically explain that, but I think it's a moot point. 00:39:42.655 --> 00:39:46.820 I, I, they help people in that, in that, in that moment, call it my moment of 00:39:46.820 --> 00:39:51.950 spiritual conversion in that moment, what I was overwhelmed with was a sense of awe. 00:39:52.370 --> 00:39:53.840 And a sense of humility. 00:39:53.900 --> 00:39:54.170 Yeah. 00:39:54.410 --> 00:40:00.560 That it, it would, it would take the most arrogant of atheists to ask God 00:40:00.560 --> 00:40:03.560 to put someone between them and the bottle shop when they're an alcoholic. 00:40:03.590 --> 00:40:03.980 Mm-hmm. 00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:08.870 And someone is put there and then you say, oh, that doesn't mean anything. 00:40:09.590 --> 00:40:09.710 Yeah. 00:40:09.740 --> 00:40:12.650 You would have to be so arrogant to just Yes. 00:40:12.680 --> 00:40:16.245 Like, you'd have to be really up your own ass, like more, more than you look, 00:40:16.245 --> 00:40:20.030 if you ask God for something every day and then on the hundredth day God showed 00:40:20.030 --> 00:40:21.410 you something, you'd be questioning it. 00:40:21.410 --> 00:40:23.330 But when you've only ever asked once Yeah. 00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:27.339 And it happened, well there are, well also there are those that have, There are those 00:40:27.339 --> 00:40:30.399 that ask for the sign and the intervention and then fail to make use of it. 00:40:30.819 --> 00:40:32.559 The doctrine is full of those stories. 00:40:32.799 --> 00:40:34.569 And then there are those that never ask. 00:40:34.569 --> 00:40:37.269 But I'm reminded of some verse about those with ears to hear. 00:40:37.269 --> 00:40:37.599 Right. 00:40:38.109 --> 00:40:42.099 And I, I think what it's telling us, and I don't wanna be totally 00:40:42.099 --> 00:40:46.209 relativistic and explain it all the way, but I think what it's telling us is. 00:40:47.304 --> 00:40:48.924 The signs may not be obvious. 00:40:49.314 --> 00:40:50.724 You might have to be subtle. 00:40:50.874 --> 00:40:54.654 You might have to be alert and attentive, and it's calling you 00:40:54.654 --> 00:40:56.574 into the moment and it's like. 00:40:56.800 --> 00:41:00.280 It's not gonna be a goddamn billboard with 10 foot letters telling you what's what. 00:41:00.285 --> 00:41:00.365 Yeah. 00:41:00.370 --> 00:41:03.220 It's like you have to do some of the work here yourself, motherfucker. 00:41:03.220 --> 00:41:04.210 That's what it's saying. 00:41:04.210 --> 00:41:04.270 Yeah. 00:41:04.420 --> 00:41:04.750 Right. 00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:07.750 And isn't that in accord with everything you've discovered 00:41:07.870 --> 00:41:09.430 about spirituality so far? 00:41:09.490 --> 00:41:09.850 Yeah. 00:41:09.910 --> 00:41:10.240 All right. 00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:11.680 Well look in conclusion. 00:41:11.710 --> 00:41:12.940 In conclusion, yeah. 00:41:13.900 --> 00:41:19.510 What we're both saying is, so Eckhart Toll is a spiritual teacher. 00:41:19.810 --> 00:41:20.050 Sure. 00:41:20.125 --> 00:41:25.720 He, he claims to have had a spiritual awakening one night in a bed in London, 00:41:26.230 --> 00:41:27.730 and he never was the same again. 00:41:27.730 --> 00:41:32.530 He, he never came back to not having spiritual, he was able to escape a 00:41:32.530 --> 00:41:34.540 feeling of utter despair and emptiness. 00:41:34.540 --> 00:41:34.690 Yes. 00:41:34.720 --> 00:41:38.500 So he claims to be speaking to us from a place of awakenness. 00:41:39.160 --> 00:41:39.430 Yeah. 00:41:39.580 --> 00:41:44.590 And he's saying very confidently that there is a higher purpose. 00:41:44.620 --> 00:41:44.710 Mm-hmm. 00:41:45.130 --> 00:41:47.470 Every snowflake falls in its appropriate place. 00:41:47.470 --> 00:41:47.530 Yeah. 00:41:47.590 --> 00:41:51.100 We can't think about it, but we can subtly align ourselves 00:41:51.100 --> 00:41:52.960 with us, what we're saying. 00:41:53.365 --> 00:41:55.615 Sitting here in Melbourne is, we don't know. 00:41:56.335 --> 00:41:56.635 Yeah. 00:41:56.785 --> 00:41:57.445 I don't know. 00:41:57.445 --> 00:41:58.405 You don't know. 00:41:58.525 --> 00:42:02.815 Maybe there is, if there is a higher purpose than something like Gaza 00:42:02.815 --> 00:42:05.515 is just like, mind bogglingly. 00:42:05.695 --> 00:42:12.265 Impossible to, to, I, I don't, I have no words, but like, well, I mean, I've got 00:42:12.265 --> 00:42:14.095 some thoughts about the causality of that. 00:42:14.305 --> 00:42:15.385 There's causality. 00:42:15.385 --> 00:42:15.715 Sure. 00:42:15.715 --> 00:42:19.285 But what, where it's ended up like the horror now. 00:42:19.555 --> 00:42:21.895 Well, it was entirely predictable according to a lot of people. 00:42:21.925 --> 00:42:22.135 Yeah. 00:42:22.135 --> 00:42:25.585 Or I don't want to get into political, I'm just saying spiritually. 00:42:25.765 --> 00:42:26.065 No, no. 00:42:26.065 --> 00:42:27.235 I mean, just social scientists. 00:42:27.715 --> 00:42:29.785 The suffering, the level of suffering. 00:42:29.845 --> 00:42:30.115 Yeah. 00:42:30.685 --> 00:42:34.345 Which maybe we'd hoped maybe was in the past, which is happening 00:42:34.345 --> 00:42:39.235 again, is so hard to reconcile with any kind of interventionist God. 00:42:39.505 --> 00:42:39.805 Yeah. 00:42:39.865 --> 00:42:41.635 That it, it almost breaks. 00:42:41.965 --> 00:42:42.505 That's what I mean. 00:42:42.505 --> 00:42:45.955 It almost breaks that link between me and a higher power, if that higher power. 00:42:45.955 --> 00:42:46.885 Oh no, I understand. 00:42:46.885 --> 00:42:47.185 Yeah. 00:42:47.365 --> 00:42:47.545 Okay. 00:42:47.545 --> 00:42:49.135 So you're actually saying Yohi are very. 00:42:49.615 --> 00:42:51.415 Grappling seriously with the problem of evil. 00:42:51.805 --> 00:42:53.455 Like yes, in an existential way. 00:42:53.455 --> 00:42:53.755 Yes. 00:42:53.910 --> 00:42:54.200 Okay. 00:42:54.205 --> 00:42:55.285 Okay, sure. 00:42:55.675 --> 00:42:56.095 And do you know what? 00:42:56.095 --> 00:42:56.785 That's very fair. 00:42:57.025 --> 00:43:00.325 I'm reminded, I thought about this and I, but I decided not to bring 00:43:00.325 --> 00:43:01.555 it up, but I've changed my mind. 00:43:01.705 --> 00:43:06.807 Do you know that little, that little zen story about, so it's, it is a strange one. 00:43:06.807 --> 00:43:09.597 I thought about it many times that, and they're all strange, 00:43:09.597 --> 00:43:10.497 all the good ones, anyway. 00:43:10.497 --> 00:43:15.777 But like, you know, one night at the monastery, for some reason, the learned 00:43:15.777 --> 00:43:19.557 master is murdered in his sleep, right? 00:43:20.097 --> 00:43:24.507 Well, rather, he awakens from sleep just as he's about to be murdered. 00:43:24.507 --> 00:43:27.117 And he screams in fear and pain. 00:43:28.017 --> 00:43:30.507 And the next day some of the novices are very unsettled. 00:43:30.627 --> 00:43:32.877 They're like obviously this horrible event. 00:43:32.877 --> 00:43:36.665 But the thing that's bothering them the most, the nagging question, 00:43:36.755 --> 00:43:38.585 the grief, that's understandable. 00:43:38.615 --> 00:43:42.155 But the nagging question they can't deal with is, but he was 00:43:42.155 --> 00:43:43.775 the most enlightened among us. 00:43:44.810 --> 00:43:46.400 And he couldn't accept death. 00:43:46.430 --> 00:43:47.720 So what hope is there for me? 00:43:47.810 --> 00:43:48.290 Yeah. 00:43:49.190 --> 00:43:50.414 Well, sure. 00:43:50.474 --> 00:43:55.582 Not a bad question, I guess, but what's the rejoinder from the second most learned 00:43:55.672 --> 00:43:59.002 person in the place, or the second most wise or realized person in the place? 00:43:59.572 --> 00:44:01.118 Hey, who are you to judge that? 00:44:01.178 --> 00:44:02.828 A perfectly human reaction. 00:44:03.158 --> 00:44:05.408 Oh, I'm paraphrasing, but to me, this is how the story goes. 00:44:05.858 --> 00:44:08.318 That is a very human reaction. 00:44:08.888 --> 00:44:12.459 None of us, however, self realized would react differently. 00:44:12.729 --> 00:44:16.089 And it would, it would be, we would lack compassion for another to 00:44:16.089 --> 00:44:19.089 expect them to react differently just so that we might feel better. 00:44:19.173 --> 00:44:23.210 In other words, even after enlightenment, the horror doesn't go away. 00:44:23.510 --> 00:44:27.200 But in theory, yeah, in theory, you are better equipped to deal with everyday 00:44:27.200 --> 00:44:31.880 sort of horror and stay in the place of compassion instead of, 'cause, 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:33.230 you know, hurt people, hurt people. 00:44:33.230 --> 00:44:33.380 Right. 00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:34.109 Oh yeah. 00:44:34.109 --> 00:44:35.969 And if you, getting outta that is difficult. 00:44:36.029 --> 00:44:36.179 Yeah. 00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:40.050 And when you read The Power of Now by Eckhart Toll in 1997, he's 00:44:40.050 --> 00:44:44.970 predicting the complete breakdown of society because of egoic Sure. 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:46.620 Egoic identification. 00:44:46.620 --> 00:44:51.045 And he's saying, unless everyone awakens to the Eckhart Toll style of awake Yeah. 00:44:51.050 --> 00:44:52.140 Only I can save the world. 00:44:52.140 --> 00:44:52.380 Sure. 00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:52.650 Yeah. 00:44:52.650 --> 00:44:56.040 It's, he, so he predicts, he does apocalyptic predictions 00:44:56.040 --> 00:44:59.940 back in 1997, which as bad as the world seems have not come true. 00:45:00.210 --> 00:45:00.540 No. 00:45:00.601 --> 00:45:05.581 so yeah, like many spiritual teachers, he will predict like the end of the 00:45:05.581 --> 00:45:07.111 world unless you agree with Yeah. 00:45:07.141 --> 00:45:09.361 There's a massive overreach and Yeah. 00:45:09.361 --> 00:45:10.526 And, and, and whether it's a market. 00:45:10.526 --> 00:45:10.606 Yeah. 00:45:10.606 --> 00:45:11.191 And I love that book. 00:45:11.191 --> 00:45:14.221 I reread it because it's, I gave it, you know, it's the one book 00:45:14.221 --> 00:45:15.451 I've given to my oldest daughter. 00:45:15.451 --> 00:45:16.231 I love it. 00:45:16.231 --> 00:45:19.051 But that stuff, ah, I don't know. 00:45:19.051 --> 00:45:21.931 I just wish I, it doesn't need to be in there. 00:45:22.501 --> 00:45:24.601 It doesn't really add to his message. 00:45:24.631 --> 00:45:28.141 I, you know, also, maybe we can write this off as. 00:45:28.471 --> 00:45:30.991 Excesses of a, of a young man. 00:45:30.991 --> 00:45:31.291 Right. 00:45:31.291 --> 00:45:35.191 And maybe he'd be much more considered now, who can say, but certainly 00:45:35.191 --> 00:45:38.161 this is a tactic you see with Alex Jones and you see with every cult. 00:45:38.521 --> 00:45:42.211 Oh, I remember during COVID he put out a video, which was just like 00:45:42.901 --> 00:45:45.721 at the height of the chaos and just looking into the camera going, 00:45:45.721 --> 00:45:47.131 this is your chance to wake up. 00:45:47.252 --> 00:45:47.657 Sure, sure. 00:45:47.862 --> 00:45:48.617 Like, sure. 00:45:48.617 --> 00:45:49.607 Wake up to what Exactly. 00:45:49.607 --> 00:45:51.257 He wasn't like, oh, it's gonna be okay. 00:45:51.257 --> 00:45:53.477 He's like, this is your, this. 00:45:53.477 --> 00:45:56.957 Everything that's happening is your chance to wake up. 00:45:57.167 --> 00:45:59.927 Well, certainly the guy I mentioned before, Craig, we had a discussion 00:45:59.927 --> 00:46:02.950 earlier in the Pando, which was like, maybe a year in or so. 00:46:03.094 --> 00:46:03.364 yeah. 00:46:03.364 --> 00:46:03.604 Yeah. 00:46:03.604 --> 00:46:04.054 I agree. 00:46:04.054 --> 00:46:07.114 This is a chance for people to wake up, but it's like. 00:46:07.370 --> 00:46:10.940 My pitch was, oh, people were waking up to the existence of a 00:46:10.940 --> 00:46:15.830 thing called the state, and it has powers, it has repressive powers. 00:46:15.830 --> 00:46:17.600 It has a monopoly on legitimate violence. 00:46:17.600 --> 00:46:20.870 If it doesn't want to allow you to protest, it won't allow it. 00:46:21.260 --> 00:46:26.510 If it needs you to do a certain thing for good or bad reasons, it's gonna 00:46:26.510 --> 00:46:27.950 try and get you to do that thing. 00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:31.670 It's gonna call on you for cooperation, and it's gonna hit you. 00:46:31.670 --> 00:46:34.790 If it can't get the cooperation, it's gonna sanction you in some way. 00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:38.930 This thing exists, and some people, it seems adults. 00:46:39.283 --> 00:46:40.513 Who managed to get through life. 00:46:41.563 --> 00:46:41.623 Yeah. 00:46:41.623 --> 00:46:45.643 At 35 or 40 or 50, discover that there's a thing called government Yeah. 00:46:45.643 --> 00:46:47.233 And are fucking astonished by it. 00:46:47.768 --> 00:46:48.178 That Yeah. 00:46:48.178 --> 00:46:48.378 Yeah. 00:46:48.383 --> 00:46:50.053 That can't be mandatory. 00:46:50.263 --> 00:46:50.683 Yeah. 00:46:50.683 --> 00:46:51.823 It's like, yes, it can. 00:46:52.243 --> 00:46:52.603 Yeah. 00:46:52.963 --> 00:46:53.233 Yeah. 00:46:53.413 --> 00:46:54.553 Government exists, bro. 00:46:54.853 --> 00:46:58.903 And, and, and so I, so I said, you know, in a rather smarmy moment where 00:46:58.993 --> 00:47:01.813 I was feeling a bit high on my own supply, 'cause there was a brief pause 00:47:01.813 --> 00:47:04.723 in pandemic and we were in restaurants and stuff, and there's a cool friend 00:47:04.723 --> 00:47:08.443 from overseas visiting, and I felt quite satisfied with myself, as I said. 00:47:08.616 --> 00:47:12.465 yes, Craig, uh, the, there are many who've suddenly discovered the 00:47:12.465 --> 00:47:17.475 theories of Max Weber, you know, the, the, the, the monopoly on legitimate 00:47:17.475 --> 00:47:18.675 violence, et cetera, et cetera. 00:47:19.455 --> 00:47:24.240 And, and then as the conversation went on, well they discovered that modernity 00:47:24.240 --> 00:47:26.986 where, where, uh oh, where we're in it. 00:47:27.766 --> 00:47:28.366 Uh oh. 00:47:28.906 --> 00:47:32.296 Everything was cool when the treat supply was steady and everything was 00:47:32.296 --> 00:47:34.636 cool when I thought I had freedom. 00:47:35.146 --> 00:47:38.836 But really I just adjusted to a certain set of limitations and 00:47:38.836 --> 00:47:40.786 that in my mind was freedom. 00:47:41.086 --> 00:47:44.026 And then now the limitations have changed in some way. 00:47:44.026 --> 00:47:47.536 And now I'm not free, but like in that same kind of simple minded 00:47:47.536 --> 00:47:51.496 way of like, I was totally free before and now I'm 0% free now. 00:47:51.676 --> 00:47:54.736 It's this kind of black and white thinking, which gets people into trouble. 00:47:54.796 --> 00:47:55.246 Yeah. 00:47:55.246 --> 00:47:58.756 You know, I look, I didn't mind Eckhart to look him in the eye, tell me to 00:47:58.756 --> 00:48:00.226 wait, have a spiritual awakening. 00:48:00.556 --> 00:48:04.246 It was about as useful as anything else I could do in during lockdown. 00:48:04.396 --> 00:48:05.596 I think it's a good invitation. 00:48:05.896 --> 00:48:06.046 Yeah. 00:48:06.046 --> 00:48:07.486 It's just, it's what you do with it, you know? 00:48:07.486 --> 00:48:07.906 Yeah. 00:48:07.996 --> 00:48:11.026 It's like, you gonna but, but, but Eckhart to wouldn't say that. 00:48:11.304 --> 00:48:15.384 You know, it escaped randomly from a lab, or it was randomly, someone eating a bat 00:48:15.684 --> 00:48:16.494 would say He didn't, he didn't say that. 00:48:16.979 --> 00:48:18.264 No, he didn't have an opinion either way. 00:48:18.264 --> 00:48:21.054 But from what he's written there, he would say, this is God's higher 00:48:21.054 --> 00:48:22.854 purpose, the whole COVID thing. 00:48:22.854 --> 00:48:25.224 And everyone that died from it was, well, God created viruses. 00:48:25.224 --> 00:48:25.705 I guess so. 00:48:26.034 --> 00:48:26.424 Yeah. 00:48:26.484 --> 00:48:30.024 I mean, I guess, yeah, but the way it even unfolded in the world, Sam 00:48:30.024 --> 00:48:31.704 has to be part of a higher purpose. 00:48:32.004 --> 00:48:32.784 Uh, yeah. 00:48:32.784 --> 00:48:35.844 And maybe that higher purpose is, see, I would say it was fucking random, 00:48:35.844 --> 00:48:37.259 whatever it started from, from same. 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:40.344 It was a crazy, random series of crazy events that, but, 00:48:40.349 --> 00:48:41.124 but here's the thing, right? 00:48:41.484 --> 00:48:47.784 Even a, even a sort of committed fence sit like me, can see some bigger patterns, 00:48:47.784 --> 00:48:49.854 some slightly larger, more epic things. 00:48:49.854 --> 00:48:50.184 Yeah. 00:48:50.184 --> 00:48:53.514 The environmentalist like to say, oh, well this is in humans 00:48:53.514 --> 00:48:54.804 encroaching on the natural world. 00:48:54.804 --> 00:48:57.384 It's like, yeah, except, unless it got out of a lab, which no one 00:48:57.384 --> 00:49:01.074 knows, I, I'm actually going with the Pangolin, it's much more likely the 00:49:01.074 --> 00:49:02.874 wet markets have been a vector before. 00:49:02.994 --> 00:49:03.354 Sure. 00:49:03.354 --> 00:49:03.684 Sam. 00:49:03.684 --> 00:49:03.834 Yeah. 00:49:04.194 --> 00:49:08.694 I'm saying people will take an event and, and overlay whatever 00:49:08.694 --> 00:49:10.644 their preexisting ideology was. 00:49:10.764 --> 00:49:13.494 Well, look, I, I, I'm a, look, I'm, I'm interested in history. 00:49:13.494 --> 00:49:18.384 I think that the, the higher meanings are to be found in sort of two places. 00:49:18.797 --> 00:49:25.157 The combination of chaos and causality, that history is the synthesis of what 00:49:25.157 --> 00:49:26.387 it is and what we'd like it to be. 00:49:26.387 --> 00:49:30.003 Instead, things, we oppose things, we try to support the, the, the 00:49:30.003 --> 00:49:33.003 crab walk up the beach, you know, side to side to side to side. 00:49:33.003 --> 00:49:35.433 But it's, maybe it's going in some direction, maybe it's not, 00:49:35.555 --> 00:49:36.755 you know, dialectics, right? 00:49:37.325 --> 00:49:37.685 But. 00:49:38.765 --> 00:49:42.605 There's also another source of higher meaning and higher purpose in history, 00:49:42.605 --> 00:49:44.555 which is what the fuck we make of it. 00:49:45.215 --> 00:49:47.585 And that is a thing that is hugely contested. 00:49:47.585 --> 00:49:48.605 Like what is the meaning of history? 00:49:48.605 --> 00:49:49.715 What's the meaning of the present? 00:49:49.925 --> 00:49:51.065 What should the future be? 00:49:51.395 --> 00:49:53.976 Well, unfortunately I've got bad news for people. 00:49:53.976 --> 00:49:58.176 If you are hoping to escape controversy or having to think 00:49:58.176 --> 00:50:00.156 for yourselves, it can't be done. 00:50:00.396 --> 00:50:05.256 And if you think you can escape the influence of others and the requests of 00:50:05.256 --> 00:50:08.406 others and the pressure from other, no, you're not gonna escape that either. 00:50:08.406 --> 00:50:12.666 So you're not entirely free, but also you're not entirely unfree and you 00:50:12.666 --> 00:50:16.056 have, you've got some agency, you've gotta join with the rest of humans. 00:50:16.086 --> 00:50:18.276 But what about rather than to try and make it a better place? 00:50:18.276 --> 00:50:21.546 What about rather than trying to do my will, I try and do god's will? 00:50:22.326 --> 00:50:23.256 Is that good advice? 00:50:23.661 --> 00:50:24.531 Absolutely. 00:50:24.561 --> 00:50:26.871 But now we just have to figure out what God's will is. 00:50:26.931 --> 00:50:27.111 Yeah. 00:50:27.111 --> 00:50:29.212 I've been wrestling with that one for a long time, and I have, 00:50:29.566 --> 00:50:30.741 I think absolutely no idea. 00:50:30.801 --> 00:50:31.761 I think the scriptural source. 00:50:31.761 --> 00:50:35.751 So it's up to, as far as I can tell, it's up to me still as 00:50:35.751 --> 00:50:39.051 much as I, and I've tried to hand it over Sam to a higher power. 00:50:39.111 --> 00:50:39.231 Mm-hmm. 00:50:39.651 --> 00:50:44.151 And in the end, when, when something goes wrong in my life, it's usually 00:50:44.151 --> 00:50:47.961 something I've done well and a dec decision I've made that I got wrong. 00:50:48.411 --> 00:50:49.281 Mm, yes, yes, yes. 00:50:49.281 --> 00:50:53.961 But the, the bug in the Protestant code, Martin Luther had legitimate criticisms of 00:50:54.231 --> 00:50:56.031 Catholic church, which needed to be made. 00:50:56.481 --> 00:51:01.161 Uh, he was also an anti-Semite, but he did unleash a hell of a train of consequences, 00:51:01.161 --> 00:51:03.711 which even he didn't quite want. 00:51:03.831 --> 00:51:05.811 Uh, not all of them anyway, just like Margaret Thatcher. 00:51:05.811 --> 00:51:08.271 I don't think she tended to unravel British society. 00:51:08.271 --> 00:51:10.341 She did it, but it wasn't quite her plan. 00:51:10.428 --> 00:51:13.338 and so it was Martin Luther and he's like the primacy of conscience 00:51:13.338 --> 00:51:15.828 and like, no, no, we're not getting the doctrine from the priests. 00:51:15.828 --> 00:51:17.628 We have to discover it ourselves in the book. 00:51:17.779 --> 00:51:19.339 Fast forward a few hundred years. 00:51:19.554 --> 00:51:21.439 Oh, oh, it's whatever I think it is. 00:51:22.069 --> 00:51:23.209 I'm a church of one. 00:51:23.419 --> 00:51:23.899 Whatever. 00:51:23.899 --> 00:51:25.969 I, I'm gonna manifest that. 00:51:25.969 --> 00:51:28.399 That's, that's where most, that's where so many Christians are at 00:51:28.399 --> 00:51:29.929 now, and other religious types. 00:51:29.929 --> 00:51:31.969 They've actually gotten quite new age, a lot of them. 00:51:31.969 --> 00:51:35.149 And they've really renounced sort of an engagement with reality. 00:51:35.248 --> 00:51:37.978 and you've also got materialists and atheists that just wanna retreat 00:51:37.983 --> 00:51:39.253 into blaming religion for everything. 00:51:39.388 --> 00:51:43.198 And I find all of this quite childish and that it's actually, we're all just a bunch 00:51:43.198 --> 00:51:45.148 of humans in a massive fucking dilemma. 00:51:45.448 --> 00:51:47.068 And that's the meaning of life. 00:51:47.098 --> 00:51:47.248 Yeah. 00:51:47.248 --> 00:51:50.218 It's like we're in this difficult, difficult dilemma. 00:51:50.218 --> 00:51:55.438 Don't, together, don't think whether you call it god's will or a higher purpose. 00:51:55.858 --> 00:51:59.938 I think I could do a lot worse sometimes and close my eyes for five 00:51:59.938 --> 00:52:04.258 minutes and just try and think what the higher purpose would want me to do. 00:52:04.798 --> 00:52:05.248 Uh, yeah. 00:52:05.248 --> 00:52:08.218 And what That's a, that's totally, that's a, that's a. 00:52:08.728 --> 00:52:11.008 Tall in my toolkit I didn't have as an atheist. 00:52:11.368 --> 00:52:11.758 Yes. 00:52:11.813 --> 00:52:14.698 You know, I just acted in the world and Yeah. 00:52:14.758 --> 00:52:15.928 Dealt with the reaction. 00:52:15.958 --> 00:52:17.788 Well, I, I go Yeah, no, that makes sense. 00:52:18.538 --> 00:52:19.588 Deal with the consequences. 00:52:19.708 --> 00:52:19.768 Yeah. 00:52:19.768 --> 00:52:20.218 Pausing. 00:52:20.218 --> 00:52:20.428 Yeah. 00:52:20.458 --> 00:52:21.538 Reflecting, yeah. 00:52:21.598 --> 00:52:22.618 Meditating. 00:52:22.648 --> 00:52:22.798 Yeah. 00:52:22.829 --> 00:52:25.409 well, I, I go with, yes, I go with Geck on this though. 00:52:25.409 --> 00:52:28.049 He says I'm an atheist Paul line. 00:52:28.799 --> 00:52:33.089 That basically what Paul asks us to do in the letters, that's my platform. 00:52:33.389 --> 00:52:36.929 But I reject the idea that I have to believe in Jesus in order to do that. 00:52:37.409 --> 00:52:42.917 And that, what Paul was actually saying was, at the moment we need 00:52:42.917 --> 00:52:46.397 this idea of Jesus and salvation and the body of the church in 00:52:46.397 --> 00:52:48.497 order to become our better selves. 00:52:48.977 --> 00:52:52.067 But it di it didn't necessarily mean this was the only way 00:52:52.067 --> 00:52:53.147 it could ever be achieved. 00:52:53.267 --> 00:52:58.127 And obviously Socialists and Mar revolutionary Marxists believed that 00:52:58.127 --> 00:52:59.747 they could do this in a secular way. 00:52:59.747 --> 00:53:02.507 They could create utopia and heaven on earth in a secular way. 00:53:02.507 --> 00:53:02.807 Right. 00:53:03.947 --> 00:53:09.917 Now the world today, obviously a, a mess that might become a bigger mess. 00:53:09.917 --> 00:53:14.210 It's hard to say exactly, but it's not all what we say it is. 00:53:14.870 --> 00:53:16.550 And it's not all set out either. 00:53:16.580 --> 00:53:19.070 So that's, so what does God ask us to do? 00:53:19.070 --> 00:53:19.940 What is God's will? 00:53:19.940 --> 00:53:22.640 Well, I'm gonna tell you actually, I think there's loads of scriptural 00:53:22.640 --> 00:53:26.999 evidence from across all the religions and none of it is particularly 00:53:26.999 --> 00:53:28.859 convenient for powerful people. 00:53:29.069 --> 00:53:30.509 That's where you know it's real. 00:53:30.509 --> 00:53:37.919 So if it says, if it says act with charity and compassion, if it says 00:53:37.919 --> 00:53:42.929 care for the sick and clothe the naked and go to those in prison as 00:53:42.929 --> 00:53:44.639 though you yourself were a prisoner. 00:53:44.699 --> 00:53:51.269 And if it, and if it tells you to sympathize with a band of oppressed 00:53:51.269 --> 00:53:56.909 people being crushed by an empire, well that's what that book says to do. 00:53:57.149 --> 00:53:57.629 So I think it's. 00:53:57.929 --> 00:54:00.659 Pretty clear who's who currently, in terms of that narrative. 00:54:00.855 --> 00:54:06.735 it asks us to regard other humans as no more or less than ourselves and as 00:54:06.795 --> 00:54:08.985 companions in this difficult journey. 00:54:09.015 --> 00:54:10.005 Like that's all it is. 00:54:10.005 --> 00:54:11.445 Like, isn't that big enough? 00:54:11.475 --> 00:54:13.545 Isn't that hard enough and cosmic enough? 00:54:13.935 --> 00:54:14.145 Yeah. 00:54:14.145 --> 00:54:17.350 I've never had a god from a, from a book. 00:54:18.615 --> 00:54:21.735 Well, what I'm saying is I've be one those people trying to work it out on my own. 00:54:21.825 --> 00:54:23.025 No, well, that's fine, right? 00:54:23.265 --> 00:54:24.405 I don't care about the scr. 00:54:24.405 --> 00:54:25.095 Any scriptures. 00:54:25.095 --> 00:54:28.232 No, but the, well, the scripture people will say, the, the, the 00:54:28.232 --> 00:54:32.762 honest ones will say these documents aren't perfect, but they are 00:54:32.762 --> 00:54:34.652 useful and make reference to them. 00:54:35.042 --> 00:54:38.927 And then there's the people that are like, no, no, religion, 00:54:38.927 --> 00:54:40.307 spirituality, it's a difficult. 00:54:40.577 --> 00:54:44.597 Path that everyone has to walk alone to some degree, and every experience 00:54:44.597 --> 00:54:45.797 is gonna be a little bit different. 00:54:45.947 --> 00:54:48.857 Well, I think both of those people are right, but I do think it's 00:54:48.857 --> 00:54:52.127 interesting to reflect on what humans have written down at different points. 00:54:52.187 --> 00:54:52.397 Yeah. 00:54:52.397 --> 00:54:53.297 As the word of God. 00:54:53.657 --> 00:54:54.227 So refer. 00:54:54.527 --> 00:54:58.217 And so when I refer people to scriptures, what I'm actually referring them to is 00:54:58.217 --> 00:55:01.787 statements from previous humans thousands of years ago, hundreds of years ago. 00:55:01.879 --> 00:55:04.249 and they say a lot of the same things. 00:55:04.249 --> 00:55:07.729 Now, there's also stuff in there about having a hierarchy and a 00:55:07.789 --> 00:55:13.159 cosmic sort of hierarchy and, uh, casts and stinky stuff like that. 00:55:13.819 --> 00:55:17.029 But I can refer you to another scriptural authority that says, no, no, no, no. 00:55:17.029 --> 00:55:21.469 Hinduism has no future if it stays with caste as Hanya 500 years ago says, 00:55:21.469 --> 00:55:23.419 we have to abolish caste ethnicity. 00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:28.469 in fact, we have to abolish kind of this idea that we're all in different religions 00:55:28.469 --> 00:55:33.869 all together and we have to abolish basically gender-based hierarchy as well. 00:55:33.869 --> 00:55:38.999 So like, this was a radical throwdown 500 years ago, and people keep making those 00:55:39.089 --> 00:55:43.229 throwdowns and like, I don't know what sort of higher purpose Toley has in mind. 00:55:43.229 --> 00:55:45.329 Well, he's gonna tell you we can't say what it is. 00:55:45.329 --> 00:55:47.879 We just have to try and feel it and follow it. 00:55:47.879 --> 00:55:47.939 Yeah. 00:55:48.209 --> 00:55:49.319 Can we go with that? 00:55:49.499 --> 00:55:50.909 Can we try and feel it and follow it? 00:55:50.999 --> 00:55:56.003 I think that that could be a good place to leave it, Sam, but, um, yeah, I, it's been 00:55:56.003 --> 00:55:58.703 good to thrash out my spiritual crisis. 00:55:58.708 --> 00:56:01.133 Do you still feel like you're in the same degree of crisis? 00:56:01.943 --> 00:56:04.553 I think that in conclusion. 00:56:05.588 --> 00:56:09.068 Maybe we could all take some time to align ourselves with a higher 00:56:09.068 --> 00:56:10.748 purpose we can't quite understand. 00:56:11.468 --> 00:56:11.558 Mm-hmm. 00:56:11.813 --> 00:56:12.233 Mm-hmm. 00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.668 So maybe I've come back around to thinking it's a beautiful quote 00:56:15.728 --> 00:56:17.108 and I'm kind of okay with it. 00:56:17.113 --> 00:56:17.433 Mm-hmm. 00:56:17.733 --> 00:56:20.438 And it's, it's a quite a beautiful quote that leaves you with a lot of work to 00:56:20.438 --> 00:56:24.338 do, and any person on a spiritual path who isn't concerned with a problem of 00:56:24.338 --> 00:56:28.478 human suffering at some point and how that relates to a higher power mm-hmm. 00:56:29.138 --> 00:56:33.998 Has maybe missed something, you know, oh, they've absolutely missed that. 00:56:33.998 --> 00:56:39.008 And maybe I've become a Buddhist and renounce ever having high, 00:56:39.068 --> 00:56:43.088 not ever having, having one, but renounce having a higher power 00:56:43.358 --> 00:56:45.278 and renounce a higher purpose. 00:56:46.148 --> 00:56:49.538 Maybe then maybe I get more and more into Buddhism, which I find 00:56:49.538 --> 00:56:51.548 to be quite concrete actually. 00:56:51.968 --> 00:56:52.448 Yeah. 00:56:52.448 --> 00:56:55.358 There are some aspects of it that are quite weird and mysterious and there's 00:56:55.358 --> 00:56:56.708 other parts that are very concrete. 00:56:56.708 --> 00:56:57.098 Indeed. 00:56:57.098 --> 00:56:58.238 It's interesting like that. 00:56:58.418 --> 00:56:58.928 Yeah. 00:56:58.928 --> 00:57:01.388 Uh, that's what I'm feeling a strong pull towards. 00:57:01.388 --> 00:57:02.078 I don't know. 00:57:02.468 --> 00:57:05.543 So you see, you see Buddhism though as non monotheistic kind of thing. 00:57:05.588 --> 00:57:07.088 It's sort of not even theistic. 00:57:07.178 --> 00:57:08.468 Well, there's no higher power. 00:57:09.308 --> 00:57:09.518 Yeah. 00:57:09.518 --> 00:57:10.088 I dunno. 00:57:10.118 --> 00:57:16.148 But Buddha in a religious in, if you go to a religiously Buddhist country Yeah. 00:57:16.148 --> 00:57:19.703 Buddha is venerated as he's worshiped as a sort of God Yes, a hundred percent. 00:57:19.703 --> 00:57:22.778 In a similar way that Jesus is, but Western, yeah, like Buddhism 00:57:22.778 --> 00:57:26.738 that I could sign on for would be none of that, if that makes sense. 00:57:26.768 --> 00:57:27.008 Well, yeah. 00:57:27.008 --> 00:57:28.538 Unless I wanted to have some of that. 00:57:28.628 --> 00:57:32.018 Well it's interesting though, 'cause Tibetan Buddhism meanwhile, so 00:57:32.018 --> 00:57:34.598 you're right, some of that Southeast Asian Buddhism, it's sort of quite. 00:57:34.928 --> 00:57:37.683 Recognizably, they're worshiping this God. 00:57:37.868 --> 00:57:38.258 Yeah. 00:57:38.258 --> 00:57:38.978 That's clear enough. 00:57:39.008 --> 00:57:39.308 Yeah. 00:57:39.368 --> 00:57:42.788 And, and they, and when you hang out with 'em, they don't take it that seriously. 00:57:42.848 --> 00:57:43.388 That's right. 00:57:43.388 --> 00:57:44.318 And like religion here. 00:57:44.318 --> 00:57:44.498 Yeah. 00:57:44.618 --> 00:57:45.488 Like Christians here. 00:57:45.488 --> 00:57:45.548 Yeah. 00:57:45.578 --> 00:57:46.748 They sort of hold it lightly. 00:57:46.753 --> 00:57:47.288 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:57:47.288 --> 00:57:48.848 Which I, I kind of dig on some level. 00:57:48.908 --> 00:57:49.178 Yeah. 00:57:49.208 --> 00:57:52.088 And then, but then you've got like Tibetan Buddhism, which is like 00:57:52.568 --> 00:57:55.568 much more weird and interesting. 00:57:55.568 --> 00:57:58.478 It's got all these budha and ghosts and like Yeah. 00:57:58.568 --> 00:58:00.578 Tupa and it's quite far out. 00:58:00.578 --> 00:58:03.788 And there's actually some kind of, there's kind of some creepy 00:58:03.788 --> 00:58:06.008 characters in like the law. 00:58:06.008 --> 00:58:10.118 Like it's, I do, I mean, I do sometimes think Sam, as a bipolar person, I've 00:58:10.118 --> 00:58:14.438 done well to never join a religion and maybe I should not join a religion. 00:58:14.978 --> 00:58:19.238 Well, like, because I am prone to being a zealot. 00:58:19.388 --> 00:58:20.828 I think some would suit you better than others. 00:58:20.828 --> 00:58:22.118 I'm prone to zealotry. 00:58:22.118 --> 00:58:22.478 Yes. 00:58:22.478 --> 00:58:23.858 And there are Buddhist zealots too. 00:58:24.038 --> 00:58:24.668 Uh, yeah. 00:58:24.698 --> 00:58:28.778 So I've never signed on for a religion and I'm 45. 00:58:29.363 --> 00:58:31.853 I'm only drawn to one religion and that's Buddhism. 00:58:32.183 --> 00:58:34.943 Well, if you're gonna be a zeal, but I'm in a spiritual dilemma, which is a good 00:58:34.943 --> 00:58:37.763 time to join a religion, I guess probably. 00:58:37.793 --> 00:58:38.183 Yeah. 00:58:38.243 --> 00:58:42.833 Uh, I think, well if you're gonna be a zealot, maybe Western Buddhism 00:58:42.953 --> 00:58:46.343 is, could be worse of a thing to be a zealot about, I guess. 00:58:46.823 --> 00:58:52.613 And also like I was just thinking before about Yeah. 00:58:52.643 --> 00:58:56.213 'cause there were har Christians who in their zealotry did a lot of good 00:58:56.423 --> 00:58:58.613 and there were others who didn't. 00:58:59.543 --> 00:59:00.953 Uh, or it was a mixed bag. 00:59:00.953 --> 00:59:01.313 Right. 00:59:01.502 --> 00:59:05.192 so I'm not necessarily afraid of you becoming mega committed 00:59:05.192 --> 00:59:07.112 to that, but That's right. 00:59:07.112 --> 00:59:07.592 I was remembered. 00:59:08.132 --> 00:59:09.542 I was reminded of a John Lennon quote. 00:59:09.872 --> 00:59:12.632 In like there's a particular edition of the Bug Gita or whatever, where 00:59:12.632 --> 00:59:17.492 there's like an introduction from John Lennon that, you know, that Harry's 00:59:17.492 --> 00:59:22.322 asked him to write and he says, uh, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. 00:59:22.802 --> 00:59:28.322 You know, you can't like look at it and go, that's a good pud, that's my pud, I'm 00:59:28.322 --> 00:59:30.122 on that PUD train for the rest of my life. 00:59:30.122 --> 00:59:30.657 It's like, no, no. 00:59:30.662 --> 00:59:31.352 Eat the pod mates. 00:59:31.352 --> 00:59:31.952 See what happens. 00:59:31.982 --> 00:59:32.192 Yeah. 00:59:33.452 --> 00:59:35.462 Or drop some acid and decide you're a Hindu. 00:59:36.572 --> 00:59:37.982 Well, it is kind of what those guys did. 00:59:37.982 --> 00:59:38.042 Yeah. 00:59:38.302 --> 00:59:39.602 I get, you're right, you're right. 00:59:39.842 --> 00:59:43.142 That was sort of like, I saw things with multiple arms and heads. 00:59:43.232 --> 00:59:43.772 Yeah. 00:59:43.772 --> 00:59:45.062 I guess we're going with this now. 00:59:45.067 --> 00:59:46.322 Yeah, yeah, that's right. 00:59:47.192 --> 00:59:48.512 Alright, I'm gonna go, Sam. 00:59:48.962 --> 00:59:52.862 Yeah, you can stay if you want, but you're in my house, so I'll have to kick you out. 00:59:52.892 --> 00:59:53.162 No, no. 00:59:53.162 --> 00:59:54.692 You can make me a coffee then kick me out. 00:59:54.782 --> 00:59:55.232 All right. 00:59:55.412 --> 00:59:59.312 Well it's been fun and um, thanks for helping with my spiritual dilemma. 00:59:59.702 --> 01:00:03.392 Oh, well, I, I hope it gets better and stays the same and. 01:00:03.797 --> 01:00:06.977 Well, yeah, I mean, I can come and join you in the agnostic with the 01:00:07.097 --> 01:00:09.167 splinters in my ass a hundred percent. 01:00:09.167 --> 01:00:11.207 It's uncomfortable, but someone's gotta do it. 01:00:12.167 --> 01:00:13.217 All right, see you mate. 01:00:13.247 --> 01:00:13.697 See ya.