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Hey everybody, welcome back to the hot dish.

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Heidi couldn't be here today, so you just have me on the hot dish.

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And I tell you what, I'm looking forward to this conversation.

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It's a real treat for us now.

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We get a chance to visit with Paul Sullivan with the ACLU out of Minnesota.

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We all know what's going on in Minnesota.

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We all know this Joel Heitkamp opinion now, how ridiculous and vicious uh it is in
Minnesota.

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Well, the ACLU is doing something about it.

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And that's why we asked Paul to come on and that's why he's good enough to come on.

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Paul, welcome to the hot dish.

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Sure, pleasure to be here.

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Thank you so much, Joel.

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Before we get into what you're doing, I want to talk about what you're seeing.

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What are the circumstances?

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What are you seeing on the ground in Minneapolis, St.

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Paul right now?

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Yes.

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So since, honestly, since November, but especially since December, we've seen a massive
uptick in federal law enforcement in the Minneapolis, St.

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metro area.

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And especially starting about January 4th or 5th, shortly before the killing of Renee
Good, we've seen a massive influx of oh agents, federal agents to the metro area.

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result has been that we've been seeing people across all of our communities getting their,
um, their constitutional rights violated essentially.

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we've been seeing people get pepper spray.

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We've seen people dragged out of their cars simply for being present and recording in a
public space, um, operations.

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Um, there's just, there's so many different incidents that we've, we've seen over the past
week that, you know,

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It's just been an absolute fire hose of abuses that we've been seeing.

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So you say fire hose.

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Let's use the analogy of a teapot because the big fear is that it's just going to blow
over.

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You know, it's just going to blow up, I should say.

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And, know, and that the administration is going to get what they want, which is this
visual.

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This whole boy Minneapolis is out of control when, in fact, uh again, my opinion, they put
it out of control if it gets to their

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Paul, what are you hearing on the ground?

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mean, talking to the people that are out there protesting, you yourself, uh that are out
there working with folks, what are you seeing?

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What's the attitude?

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Yeah, so what we're seeing on the ground is, think, sort of to answer your first point, um
people seem very aware of what they're trying to do here.

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um hear again and again, like, they want to be able to use this to invoke the
Rinsurrection Act.

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We can't give that to them, um which I think has really been animating a lot of people's
responses to this is that they want to resist in any way possible, but do it in a way

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That means that they're staying above the board legally, making sure that they're able to
push back on this administration, but also not give them what they want.

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Obviously on the ground, there's a lot of fear right now, especially in our immigrant
communities in Minnesota.

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But at the same time, I don't think I've seen this courage.

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Maybe of course during 2020, but like the amount of fortitude and courage that everyday
Minnesotans, including those that, you know, have every conceivable privilege, have shown

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by just showing up and protecting their neighbors is astounding.

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I don't have enough room for it, honestly.

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You know, every image is appalling when you're dragging uh a woman out of her vehicle and
you're sitting there and there's children in that vehicle or you're shooting pepper gas

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into a vehicle with little kids in it or uh heaven forbid what we saw with the killing of
Ms.

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Good.

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uh Tell me what reaction the public when you get alone with them, when you just sit down
and talk to them.

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uh You know, not in that setting where it's in public and they have to react a certain way
or else, you know, it does get used against them.

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What do they say to you?

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What do you think?

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Yes, that's a really good question.

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um I think overwhelmingly when I have people approach me after I do a Know Your Rights
training or something like that where it's one-on-one, I think yes, there's definitely a

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fair amount of, yeah, there's some fear, there's some, guess, what sort I'm looking for,
um like moroseness almost to what's going on, but it is definitely overshadowed by anger

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and by determination.

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Every single person that I have talked to at public events that I've been at have
essentially said, yeah, thank you for being here and fighting this fight.

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We're going to keep fighting this fight.

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We're going to protect our communities.

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It's really that simple.

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There's, think, I think the administration made a pretty, you know, speaking for myself,
at least I think the administration made a pretty big tactical error, assuming that

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Minnesotans would just kind of roll over and let them do what they want because they're in

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incredibly protective of their neighbors.

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um And that's what I've been told again and again.

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I think you're right and you're wrong.

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I think you're right in that Minnesota isn't rolling over and they are showing what a
community they are.

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uh quite frankly, what a beautiful state, in my opinion, they are when it comes to
standing up for people's civil liberties.

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Where you're wrong is I don't think they care.

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I don't think the administration cares one bit.

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I think that the administration is in a position where.

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They could care less where the people are protesting in the street or whether a
grandfather is being pulled out of a house in flip flops and underwear.

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And so I don't know if that's being talked about in the twin cities.

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The fact that, look, it doesn't matter what image is out there.

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They just don't care in the Trump administration.

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Yeah, no, I think that's a very fair point.

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I mean, we've seen Kristi Noem go on TV again and again and just say like, oh yeah, you
know, nothing's happening.

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I do think it, what, I guess the power of these images is less in some ways for the
federal government and it's more for the American people.

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We've been seeing in opinion polls, you know, I think I saw like a recent poll that like,
you know, at least 80 % of people had seen the video of the killing of Renee Good.

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people are seeing what's happening in Minnesota, not as widespread as I'd like.

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would frankly like to see much better coverage of exactly how bad it is right now.

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But people, people are noticing.

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Um, and I think that that's going to reflect when it comes to the midterms.

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Paul how much fear is there?

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There is definitely a good amount of fear, especially with our immigrant communities.

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know, kids aren't going to school because their parents don't feel that they can safely
drop them off.

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um ICE has been targeting, you know, school pickup and drop off, and they've been
targeting, you know, school buses, school bus stops.

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There is some very legitimate fear.

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And now people are also, yeah, scared about protecting their, being able to exercise their
first amendment rights because they don't know if they decide to.

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um

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film ice in public and blow a whistle whether they're going to get tackled and pepper
sprayed and slapped with a federal charge, unlawfully probably, but that's the current

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reality and that's what people are braving when they're still deciding to go out.

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Paul, I want to talk about the ACLU's role in this, uh you know, just looking for that
friend for those victims out there, those people being treated less than human.

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Speak to the ACLU and what that means at a time like this.

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Yeah.

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So really in a lot of ways, this is the moment that the ASLU has been built for, um
because we're seeing massive violations of people's, you know, constitutional rights.

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What we've been doing is that we've been going out into community, people like myself, um
and talking with people, gathering their stories, getting testimony from them um for the

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um lawsuit that we filed against ICE, against DHS, should say, Tincture v.

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Gnome.

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um We got input from a wide, wide swath of community that had shared their experiences of
being brutalized by ICE.

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um So it's a mix of that.

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And also our role is going out there and making sure people know their rights.

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um I always tell people it's one thing to know your rights.

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It's another thing to actually be able to practice them in the heat of the moment.

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Because even when you know your rights, which again, not everybody does,

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being able to practice that when there's a police officer standing there telling you to
shut off your phone is incredibly challenging.

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So going out and making sure people have that preparation is vital to what we're doing.

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So what tools are you using to connect?

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Because if I were one of these individuals and I needed your help or I were one of these
individuals and you know, I wasn't doing anything whatsoever illegal, but I was just in

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fear.

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uh You know, I'm not sure I would want to attend a public meeting.

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uh You know, people like me, I'm itching to attend a public meeting, but not everybody's
like me.

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And so what tools are you using to make sure that people know you're there?

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Super good question.

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um One of the biggest things that we've been doing is we've been trying to publicize as
much as possible the intake link that we have.

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We have an intake on our website for people to report incidents of abuses by ICE.

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And it's sort of in two categories.

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One is abuses against observers, they're violating their first amendment rights.

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um And another one, which is trying to document instances of racial profiling or arrests
without a warrant by ICE, where they just kind of walk up to someone and say,

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You look like an immigrant, we're going to arrest you.

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um So we've been very pushing that very hard across the community.

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And that's, you know, through community, signal chats, of course, saying community
WhatsApp chats, especially in immigrant communities.

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um But also we've been shifting um for a lot of our know your rights presentations.

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We've been shifting online so that people are able to attend and get that information
without having to leave their homes.

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Because for a lot of people who need that information right now, it's a scary time to be
outside your house.

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Yeah, I'm really curious about this, uh Paul, because I try to put myself in the shoes of
one of those ICE agents.

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you know, it would seem to me that one of them would want to break away.

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They would start thinking of the way that their parents raised them and they would want
to.

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come over to the other side for lack of a better way of putting it and just say, listen,
this is what they're saying.

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This is what they're doing.

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This is what they're being told to do behind the scenes.

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Have you been able to to break down that barrier?

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Well, we haven't really been focusing on breaking down that barrier since most of our
focus is kind of on rights.

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um But yeah, what I can say is that, at least from how I understand it, the federal
government has really put anybody who signs up for ICE in a very tough situation because

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they have this $50,000 bonus.

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They only get $10,000 of that a year.

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If they quit before five years, they have to pay it all back.

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um

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So they're, really in a rough spot, even if they do think that they want to quit because
then they have to take a financial hit themselves.

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Um, so I'm obviously not going to shed any tears over ice, but also it's worthwhile noting
that, you know, they've set it up structurally to make it incredibly hard for anybody

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who's with ice to act on their conscience, essentially structurally.

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What about the tools that are needed?

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Because you never saw a car get out of Minneapolis quicker than you did Ms.

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Good's car.

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uh You know, what about the tools that are needed to fully investigate?

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The federal government isn't going to investigate.

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We saw that on the Sunday morning shows.

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They don't want this looked into, uh you know, and so just simply to have the timing come
out in a way where

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the general public gets what happened here in a fair and honest way.

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I mean, is that something is that a role for the ACLU or is that a role for somebody you
could partner with?

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Yeah, so investigating the death of Renee Good is something that's a little bit outside of
what we do.

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Our purpose is primarily suing government bodies oh over rights violations.

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However, the Attorney General's office has said that it is going to be launching an
independent investigation of the killing of Renee Good, because yes, they were shut out of

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it by the federal government and they were

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very rightfully upset about this because there's a lot of doubt about the independence of
that DOJ investigation, especially when you see the president going on TV and saying, yes,

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this person is handing out the conclusion before any investigation has even happened.

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um I think if that answers your question.

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It answers my question, but I hope you understand why I asked it because you know the ACLU
walks in the room and they are the ACLU.

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You know, they are an organization that's been trusted to advocate and stick up for
individuals for years.

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uh And just coming off of Martin Luther King, they you know, it would seem to me that
would have been a good day for the president to take the opportunity to remember what this

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country was built on and how we can actually work.

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together, but that didn't happen.

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I get it.

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I understand it.

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I guess my point is if you walked into a room and I was feeling about as kicked down as I
could be, like many of the people in Minneapolis are, I'd be looking for help any way I

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could get it.

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I mean, any way I can get it.

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And my guess is you are.

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Absolutely, yeah.

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mean, people are firing on all cylinders right now across community, I'd say.

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Yeah, I'm not sure if that answers your question.

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I want to talk about the kids.

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It's not as easy for them to convey to the ACLU that their rights have been violated.

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uh Are you talking to them?

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Yes.

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So I'm not one of the attorneys.

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um So I guess I can't say for sure um how many, you know, cases involving children that
we've, we've any, how many intakes that we've had involving children.

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But we're certainly seeing children feeling the impact about this.

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um I'm sure you saw the news of the six month old um earlier this week that, you know, an
ICE agent, allegedly threw a flashbang under their car as they were trying to get out of

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the neighborhood when

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the person they shot the man, think it was maybe what was it?

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Monday night?

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Um, or was the last?

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No, it was last Wednesday.

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Excuse me.

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Um, so yes, we are, children are getting hurt is the short answer to that.

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Um, and there's a lot of fear, rightfully so on parents and attempts to try to make their
kids safer.

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So Paul, this weekend, or I shouldn't say this weekend, but leading into this weekend, I
know there's a lot of people in Minnesota that are going to walk out.

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You know, they're going to show how disappointed they are with their federal government by
just walking off the job.

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It seems to me that when that happens.

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there are going to be a lot of people on the other side of this issue that do some foolish
things.

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And I guess what I'm building up to here, Paul, is will the ACLU be around to take in any
of that so that the truth comes out on what happens on Friday?

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In other words, that the individuals who have the courage to do uh what I think a lot of
people are hoping they'll do on Friday,

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will have their rights protected.

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Yes.

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So the mint, the ACLU of Minnesota is going to continue our monitoring efforts and
heighten them, would say on Friday, just to make sure that people are able to, you know,

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use their rights in peace.

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whether that's, you know, some of the, you know, outside agitator coming after them,
whether that's the government itself, whether that, uh, on this local or state or federal

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level.

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Um, yes, it's really important that we monitor.

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the situation on Friday to ensure that everybody is able to protest peacefully.

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So the ACLU knows what it's like to be around a tough situation.

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I don't know, I could have phrased that better in the middle of a fight for lack of a
better way of putting it.

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You know, your folks, you know, they're coming into an area to help Minnesotans and it's
about as volatile as it can get.

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I mean, how do you make sure you and others look out for the ACLU staff and the people
that are there working?

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That's a really good question.

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um It's been a hard time, I'm not going to lie.

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um Our staff has been working around the clock, essentially since early December, trying
to get these lawsuits out the door, trying to monitor situations on the ground.

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um And it can be a challenge.

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You have to really try to step back and make some deliberate time to take care of your
mental health.

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We've had security briefings, how can we beef up our security?

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both online and in the real world in our office.

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Yeah, we're really trying our best to take care of ourselves.

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ideally we can make this a marathon instead of a sprint.

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I think we're doing a pretty okay job of it right now, but it's hard.

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So what do you say to those people watching the hot dish that say, you know what, I don't
trust the court system.

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I don't trust them anymore.

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These individuals have a bias and it's towards the administration and the courts are
stacked.

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And, you know, I don't trust them to look out for my rights anymore.

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What's your answer to that?

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Yeah.

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My answer to that is obviously I work for the ACLU, so I'm a little bit more biased
towards the, you know, going a court route to try to solve problems.

219
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I would say that when it comes to the courts, it is a step that is insufficient, but
necessary.

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If that makes sense.

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The courts themselves are.

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Yeah.

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The courts themselves are not going to save us.

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What is going to save us is using the courts as much as we can in

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collaboration with the people who are on the ground fighting the fight.

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The community organizing, the community mobilization that we have seen is truly what is
going to get us out of this.

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Yeah.

228
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So if people want to help you, you know, there's a lot of people that are watching you
listening to you right now that uh they want to help.

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I mean, they want to.

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They can't get in a plane.

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They can't fly to Minneapolis, you know, but but they want to help.

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What way can they help the ACLU?

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Well, of course you can always donate to us.

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um that being said, we're frankly a fairly well-resourced organization.

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Um, I would honestly actually direct people to giving to local groups on the ground that
are doing work around this.

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Um, there's a, there's a pretty robust website, um, that somebody has put together called
Stand With Minnesota, I believe.

237
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Um, that has a great directory of resources, how you can plug in ways you can plug in,
whether that's financial or just with, you know, your time.

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um to be able to help out the people of Minnesota through this crisis.

239
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You know, the ACLU has been there when a lot of people haven't had the guts to be there
through the years through many, many, many things that this country has had.

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And you made it better by being there.

241
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So if people want to know more, what's your website, Paul?

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For sure.

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You can go to us at aclu-mn.org.

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um That's where you're going to be able to find updates.

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We're also on social media, Instagram, Facebook.

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um Yeah.

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Yeah, keep fighting the good fight and keep looking out for people Paul way to go.

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Thanks for joining us on the hot dish.

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Amazing.

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Thank you so much for having me.

251
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You know, thanks for joining us this week.

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Heidi will be back with us next week where we'll both get a chance to visit with you.

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But you know what?

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Please look for us at onecountryproject.org.

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and you'll find all the different ways to reach out to us.