Charlie Loften: The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There are really big, deep questions that we ask each other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that he's called us to live. Everyone, welcome to the Cultivate Podcast with The Grove Church.
I'm Charlie Loften. I'm the lead pastor there, and we are here with the super creative, epically awesome Woah.
Abigail Boone: Keep it coming. Dancing machine. Let's keep it coming. Bagel Boone. Yeah.
Yeah. Did your
Charlie Loften: mom or your grandma have they said anything about why does he call you bagel? Are they are they in on it now?
Abigail Boone: Is he No. But my mom did test it out one time.
Charlie Loften: So she battle tested it?
Abigail Boone: Yeah. But I think she well, she never asked why, but do you even know why other than you took off the a?
Charlie Loften: Do I know why? Mhmm.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. Not like I love bagels.
Charlie Loften: We were at a wedding.
Abigail Boone: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. We're at a wedding, and they invited bagel to come up. And I looked at my wife, I like, bagels? It's short for Abigail. And I was like, No, it She
Abigail Boone: probably remembers that story from the wedding, or from the episode where you explained that. So, yeah, mom has battle tested it. Grandma wouldn't dare, I don't think.
Charlie Loften: Because if you take the a off of Abigail, what do you get?
Abigail Boone: Bagel. No. Bagel. Yeah. Bagel.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. But, anyways Yeah.
Abigail Boone: Well, they tried.
Charlie Loften: Could just call you Gail.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. You didn't like that. I I You don't like big Gail?
Charlie Loften: I don't like big Gail.
Abigail Boone: How do you feel whenever guys refer to other guys as big guy?
Charlie Loften: That's what Hey, big guy. That's what Matt Shrewd calls me. Do you like it? Yeah. Because he doesn't mean it in terms of, hey, Charlie.
You're fat. Think it is more of a
Abigail Boone: Because you're older than him?
Charlie Loften: I think it is the position that I hold. Okay. And with respect to the church Sure, the you're the big big guy.
Abigail Boone: Cannot imagine if someone said, Hey, girl. I'd be like, Yikes, I have let myself go.
Charlie Loften: Well, yeah, so why would I say, if I can't call you big girl, why would I call you big Gail?
Abigail Boone: Because that is literally in my name.
Charlie Loften: That doesn't make it
Abigail Boone: Better? Doesn't make it good. That's fair. That's what my sorority called me.
Charlie Loften: Okay.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. Most people are shocked to hear that I was in a sorority, but that's what they called me.
Charlie Loften: Throw what you know. Yeah, man. Right now. Oh, Chi O.
Abigail Boone: No. Si, Chi O? Absolutely not. Pi beta?
Charlie Loften: Pi pi beta? Mhmm. Pi beta phi. Oh.
Abigail Boone: If you're on the in crowd, you just call it pi beta?
Charlie Loften: That's not pi phi?
Abigail Boone: No. It is pi phi.
Charlie Loften: Oh, okay.
Abigail Boone: I haven't done that in a while. My wrists are out
Charlie Loften: of You haven't thrown what you know? No.
Abigail Boone: My wrists are out
Charlie Loften: of action. This is all I know.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. But that's We're competitors.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. Not me. I was not. I was not. Alright.
We are still with the parables, and we are in a a run here of ones that I think Big Gayle's really gonna like. And right now we're in Luke chapter 16, the parable of the Shrewd Manager. And when we talked about, just a minute ago before we got on here and I said that was the name of the parable, what did you say?
Abigail Boone: I said if someone called me shrewd, I'd be like, joke's on you. I don't know what that means.
Charlie Loften: She legitimately not like
Abigail Boone: I assume it means you're, like, angry?
Charlie Loften: It does not. Oh, you're mean? No.
Abigail Boone: It sounds like shred to me, so it sounds like you're someone who shreds something.
Charlie Loften: It's more like clever with questionable morals.
Abigail Boone: Oh, never would have guessed that. So I And I hope nobody ever calls me that.
Charlie Loften: Right. Like like like, I I am like, with my money, I'm very creatively clever, but I'm also not some avid rule follower. Okay. So this guy, this manager And he's,
Abigail Boone: like, trying to get tax cuts?
Charlie Loften: Yeah. Questionable tax.
Abigail Boone: Okay.
Charlie Loften: Like like like a That's right. I'm just a straightforward tax cut. But, like, no. I don't know that this technically applies to me. But if you kinda look at it like this way and kinda hold your face just like this, then, man, sure.
Abigail Boone: That's right off.
Charlie Loften: Who writes it off? Have you seen
Abigail Boone: the people do the drum with it?
Charlie Loften: Oh, I was I was thinking about the can I say shit? Scream.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. No. That's what it's from.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. I was gonna Yeah. People I've not seen it with any They'll, like,
Abigail Boone: dub a, like, drumbeat over it and make it into, like, kind of a rap, but they'll be like, That's not a write off.
Charlie Loften: The write off, people. I have It's good stuff. I have spent many a time with people trying to help them with their finances, and it feels exactly like that conversation.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. Tell them they just need to start a business, and they'll learn real quick what is and is not. Right off.
Charlie Loften: Or at least their dad will, who is their Yeah. Business manager will.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. Well, that's more so mom. Oh, okay. She's my bookkeeper.
Charlie Loften: Okay. Nice. Anyways, I was about to ask you a whole bunch of questions about your business, but that's not what we're doing here.
Abigail Boone: You should. Not right now. TED talk on business.
Charlie Loften: Luke 16 verse one. Jesus told his disciples alright. Okay. Context already.
Abigail Boone: Talking to the it's small group. He's not in a crowd.
Charlie Loften: There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. So he called him in and asked him, what is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management because you cannot be my manager any longer.
Abigail Boone: All
Charlie Loften: right, so great. Just like the setup here, you're the business owner.
Abigail Boone: This is not spurred from any type of question. He's just telling them. Yeah.
Charlie Loften: We've got you and your mom, and you call your mom in, like, Mom, I need you to give account of your bookkeeping here because, you can't be my bookkeeper anymore. Like, so she has done something.
Abigail Boone: But they're still like, show me what you did.
Charlie Loften: I need to what has happened here. I'm looking at my finances, and I know you've done something. Tell me what it is, and by the way, you're fired.
Abigail Boone: Wait, so Shrewd Manager, the Manager is the man who's being called in to give account. Yeah, the bookkeeper. There's another person who's asking There's him to come
Charlie Loften: the rich man and the bookkeeper, but the bookkeeper here is referred to as the Manager. There's the owner and the Manager. So the owner has come to the manager and said, What is it that you've done here? So just imagine a guy like, again, did you ever watch, someone who, mean, mostly people who are pretty agrarian, right? Like I own this big ranch that has both crops and cattle and everything on it, and I own it, but then I have this guy who runs it.
Abigail Boone: Oh, pretty manager. Right. He's a manager.
Charlie Loften: He's a manager. That's what we mean by manager. So there's the owner and the manager. So I've caught you, show me exactly what it is that you've done, and you're fired. Verse three, the manager said to himself, what shall I do now?
My master is taking away my job. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg. I know what oh, I know what I'll do so that when I lose my job, people will welcome me into their houses. So we called each one of his master's debtors. He asked the first, how much do you owe my master?
Okay? To make sure, again, we're tracking with this story. He's getting fired. And so he's like, well, okay, if I get fired from this job, I'm capable of getting different job. I'm not strong enough to like manual labor, I'm not going to just beg.
So he's coming up with a plan for after he gets fired, how will he be able to provide for himself. Okay? So now he's about to go to various people who owe his master a lot of money.
Abigail Boone: Why would they owe him money? Because he's bought from him or something? He is so wealthy that he has Oh, he's like loaned money.
Charlie Loften: He's either loaned money or to again, I bought some wheat from you, but I haven't Paid
Abigail Boone: the full. I haven't
Charlie Loften: paid the full amount yet.
Abigail Boone: Kinda like a mattress. Yeah.
Charlie Loften: They they are on some sort of payment plan Okay. With the owner. Okay. And the manager is is that's one of the things that he does is he manages Okay. These these debts.
Abigail Boone: Okay.
Charlie Loften: How much how much do you owe my master? Number verse six, nine hundred gallons of olive oil, he replied. The manager told him, take your bill, sit down quickly, and let's make it 450. Then he asked the second, how much do you owe? A thousand bushels of wheat.
He replied, take your bill, make it 800. The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people in this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourself so that when it's gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
Abigail Boone: And what what I thought commended was good. It is good. So he was proud of his shrewd activity?
Charlie Loften: Well, I think that is where I mean, that's kind of like we talked about last week. He's like, be rich towards God. And you kind of go, what does that mean? Right? And so this guy's going to okay.
So how much do you owe how much do you owe my the the big guy? I owe him a thousand dollars. Here. Let's just write let's erase it. Let's make it 8.
How much are you? 500. Let's make it 3. Right? And so he's changing.
They're basically forging these documents, right? They're just me and in order to make it where they, like whoever the new manager is, comes in and is like, okay, how much do you owe? Was like, Well, my bill says 800. And this guy, the new manager has no idea. And the boss, the owner, he doesn't know.
He doesn't keep up with this on the day to
Abigail Boone: day. But
Charlie Loften: they're just bringing them these bills. And so these people have saved $200 The new manager and the boss would have no way of ever knowing, and meanwhile, you think well of me because I gave you permission to, forge the document. And so now he thinks, If I do this, then you're going to feel like you owe me next week when you find out I don't have a job. Like, I should let him stay with me for a little bit, and I'll 50 give of the $200 that he helped me save because I'm just gonna be really thankful
Abigail Boone: for him.
Charlie Loften: And so now the master somehow finds out about this, that this is what he has been doing. Maybe one of them was like, your manager came to me and told me that I could, instead of owing you 500 bushels, only have to owe you 300 bushels. Is that is that for real? And the owner's like, I'm sorry. What?
So somehow the owner finds out about it. And he commended him? Commends him for it because he had acted truthfully.
Abigail Boone: That doesn't make sense to me. That sounds like an oxymoron.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. So it doesn't say he commends him because, man, that was really that was really great, man. You almost cost me a lot of money. That's not what he's saying. What is he saying?
Abigail Boone: Good job you were dishonest.
Charlie Loften: He was actually really smart.
Abigail Boone: Okay.
Charlie Loften: And that was actually, you know, you ever, sometimes you, you know, like you're watching a show and you find yourself kind of rooting for the criminal and you're like, it's actually a really good idea. Yeah. That was a good, that was a good, it was a, It was an immoral idea, it was a bad idea.
Abigail Boone: When Walter White chooses to use the fumigated houses, I was like, that's brilliant.
Charlie Loften: Yeah, brilliant. That was really, really smart. That evil thing that you just did,
Abigail Boone: Really that well done.
Charlie Loften: I mean, good job by you. And so even though it was costing the owner money, because master probably knows, I don't know how many times he did this, the number of people he did with this one person told me, but there may be 10 others I don't know, and I'll never be able to know. And so even though this has cost me money, it's like, I respect the game.
Abigail Boone: Yeah. Okay.
Charlie Loften: Well, I mean, that was smart. Mean, was just a, that was a really good idea. You, you, you, I, and also, now I'm gonna throw you in jail now, but I, I, I get it, it doesn't really what the master does next. Okay. He just, even the person who lost money in the process had to look at it and say, Man, game I'm respect's game, like, That was clever.
It was clever. And so I think Jesus has him be the one that commends him to make us stop and think about it. He, even though he was a worldly person doing something dishonest, it was actually thoughtful and clever.
Abigail Boone: Okay. Savvy? Savvy. Okay. Savvy.
Charlie Loften: That is a morally pure word for shrewd. Shrewd has some moral ambiguity to it. Savvy is
Abigail Boone: You cut corners and figure this out.
Charlie Loften: Savvy is more, again, now shrewd, once you're cutting corners, you move from savvy to shrewd. Savvy is I've used the entire Creatively gone through I've creatively used all of the space available to me. Shrewd is I've colored outside the lines a little bit.
Abigail Boone: Okay.
Charlie Loften: A savvy person uses everything inside the lines. A shrewd person colors outside the lines. Okay. And even the person who lost something recognizes how smart that was. Yeah.
And that's how world and this is what Jesus says. This is
Abigail Boone: how worldly people are. People on this world are
Charlie Loften: more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. Like, bad people are smarter than good people. Mhmm. Which is a wild thing to say. Yeah.
What a wild thing to say. What like, like, seriously, can we just can I just say this? Like, why bring it up?
Abigail Boone: Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're gonna be a part of the light, but you might not be as savvy as some of the other people.
Charlie Loften: So for the people in this they are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the like. So there are people who understand how to use money, power, and influence to, I guess, build relationships, right? I know how to use worldly stuff to curry favor with other people. Worldly people are really good at that, better than good people are. I tell you, if we thought Jesus was off the rails before, I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves so that when it is gone, you will be welcome to do into eternal dwellings.
So
Abigail Boone: is he encouraging this behavior?
Charlie Loften: I do not think he is encouraging forging legal documents. Okay. And I think the the purpose for the immorality of how he did it is intentional to make us pay closer attention. Okay. The master commending it is making us dive in even deeper.
Because Jesus could have said, hey, use what God has given you to to love and bless other people. That's a great idea, Jesus. Thank you.
Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
Charlie Loften: You or may not remember that. You hear this parable, you're not gonna forget it.
Abigail Boone: No, and I'm quite confused of what He's motivating you to do.
Charlie Loften: Right? And so now we're thinking about it. Now we're thinking about it. I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourself.
Abigail Boone: It feels manipulative. Is it?
Charlie Loften: Is inviting people over to your home, is that manipulative? I guess not.
Abigail Boone: I was assuming it in
Charlie Loften: the way of, like, buying friends. Is paying for somebody's coffee, is that manipulative?
Abigail Boone: No. It's generous.
Charlie Loften: Right. Giving somebody gifts. I mean, all of those are good things, aren't they?
Abigail Boone: Mhmm. You're like easily be love bomb y.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. Jeez. I reject you and your Gen Z millennial nonsense. Love bomb.
Abigail Boone: It's a thing.
Charlie Loften: Yes. Fine. But that's not yeah. I mean, any anything could be done in excess, but that's not what we're talking about here. Okay.
We're just we're talking about again, so what Jesus is saying, he's like, take what you have and use it to to make friends and to be kind to people. And where our way of thinking about morality really starts to not like this is, But you should just be doing it because it is a good thing to do. You shouldn't be thinking about the rewards you'll get for it. You shouldn't. I shouldn't take you out for lunch thinking she's going to like me, which is good, and God's going to be happy with me because I did something nice, and so I'm going to get Jesus points for this.
You shouldn't. You should just do it without any thought to any Jesus points. And you know who says something very much like that? Jesus does. Because when He says, when you give, if you give money with your left hand, you should do it in such a way that your right hand doesn't even know what's going on.
Not only should no one else know that you're being generous, your other hand shouldn't even know that you're being generous. And so he speaks out against those very particular motives. So you should not give in such a way as like, Hey guys, look at me, I'm a great person.
Abigail Boone: That the coin's falling in.
Charlie Loften: Yeah. So that's not good. That's not good. But use your worldly wealth to gain friends for yourself. Use what God has given you to make friends.
Abigail Boone: It's a great moral. Know? People do like generous people. We have
Charlie Loften: a house with a pool now. Mhmm. And like, hey, you wanna come use my pool? You know, the bad guy, the bad manager is like, I'm gonna let them do this because maybe one day they'll be rich and will feel like they owe me. Or if I'm ever in a bad way, they're gonna owe me.
Yeah. But using what you have to make friends, being strategic with what you have, don't be evil, but being strategic to do things that matter with your money. Last week we talked about being generous towards God, this is a subset of that, but also kind of think about the two great commandments, love God, love people. Love people with what you have. You should think about it, at a minimum, you should think about it strategically.
So you're stepping outside of selfishness into thinking, Hey, I want to love people with what I have, but even still, if you're being shrewd about it, that removing selfishness and greed from the equation, and being a generous person actually will ultimately work to your advantage in the long term. Yeah. So that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. Because there will come a time where you will be completely separated from your money. Yeah.
But if you have a right attitude about money
Abigail Boone: You've spent your life well.
Charlie Loften: Then you will have spent your life well, and when you get into eternity, your eternal dwellings will be great. Your attitude here will reflect your reality here. And so it actually is to your advantage, it is shrewd to consider that. To consider, if I make small investments here, it's going to give me great investments here. This dude, in a moral way, says, Hey, we're just going to take a few minutes.
We're just going to forge these documents here a little bit, and then that's going to have a payoff for me later. And even the person that lost money was like, That's actually Smart. That's actually smart. Mhmm. You have access to everything that God has given you.
Will you use it strategically to both their and your advantage?
Abigail Boone: Mhmm. That was like a goose chase.
Charlie Loften: It's just like that's just not the kind of thing that you think that Jesus would bring up. Right. That just it does not sound like it I will say this. I'm not gonna say it doesn't sound like Jesus. It does not, like, sound like our caricature of Jesus.
Yeah.
Abigail Boone: I feel like this is one that if a lot of people read it on their own, they could get quite confused in it. But it makes me happy that we're doing this podcast.
Charlie Loften: I think that is the difference. And not to be one of those guys, sometimes I hear people start talking like this, I kinda like roll my eyes. I'm like, it just sounds so pretentious. But it really is the difference between a more Western way of teaching versus an Eastern way of teaching. I teach in a very Western style.
I try to make it as clear as possible and use illustrations to back it up. And a leads to b, b leads to c. You tell some vague random story that has a point that I'm not sure I get. Mhmm. Like, that's that's that's not help that's not
Abigail Boone: that's not clear. Leaves people to walk away and ponder.
Charlie Loften: Clear is the point for me. Jesus clear is not the point. You leaving with something He wants people to want you to be on about this tomorrow because once you get to the deeper point and you have to have done more work to get there, the point will sink in better than if I just shot it to you straight. And be generous with your money. It's good for them Yeah.
And for you in the future. Be kind. Be generous to make friend use use what you have to love your friends.
Abigail Boone: Mhmm.
Charlie Loften: And then God will bless you for it someday.
Abigail Boone: That's straightforward. It's great. Thanks. This kinda reminds this is gonna be a really weird connection, but I love Criminal Minds. They quote random Is that the Profilers one?
Yeah. Okay. Behavioral unit or whatever it is.
Charlie Loften: Because all all there's so many crime
Abigail Boone: shows right now. I get you. Two favorites are NCIS and Criminal Minds. But throughout the show, they quote, like, random thought leaders, whatever. Could be Yoda, or it could be Tolstoy, or Thought leaders.
Yeah. Yeah. Yoda. It could be just, like, tons of different things, and they're, like, ambiguous sounding quotes, but I do find myself thinking about it throughout the episode. And then I'm like, Oh, that's a good application of it.
You obviously constructed the storyline to reflect the conundrum that you presented through this quote.
Charlie Loften: And even I, I recognize the difference between a movie that I like to see on a Monday afternoon where things blow up and it's fun, but I didn't really I'm not thinking about it anymore. And a movie that like
Abigail Boone: Really stumps you.
Charlie Loften: Makes me think. I have to think about it. Like I talk about I hate movies that stop rather than end. Like it to a full conclusion and resolution, and then the movie is over. As opposed to at some point, it just stops and there is no resolution.
I'm really angry at that movie. But it works. I'm thinking about it. Mean, Layla and I saw a movie a few weeks ago, and she brought it up again the other day. So, Dad, what do you think was really going on there?
And we talked about it for a while.
Abigail Boone: Sticks with you.
Charlie Loften: Because like, okay, so what was that? What was that? Jesus definitely has what we would call now a more artistic approach to communicating. The whole Bible's that way. Somebody was trying to discredit the Bible on the internet the other day by talking about how immoral some of the people are in the stories.
I'm like,
Abigail Boone: Yeah, mean, that's the point. Yeah.
Charlie Loften: Like, do you need everything to have a disclaimer at the front?
Abigail Boone: We're about to tell a story, and in this story, all the people are bad. That would
Charlie Loften: be And very then at the end of the story, it's like, did you see how even though that person is considered a hero big picture in the Bible,
Abigail Boone: in this particular story, what they did was Yeah. No. It connects to me because I think whenever we first started this series of parables, you said, I'll probably end up really liking Jesus' teaching compared to the letters that are so straightforward, and I have found that. Yeah. That it's more of the artistic approach of just pondering things.
Charlie Loften: Yeah, I mean, the stories that really get you is where the good guy does something really bad, David, there's a lot of that with David, and now he kind of turns it on his ear where the bad guy does something bad, but good. You should be more like that. You should be more like Walter White, who was very shrewd. He was very shrewd. But you're like, I'm not trying to emulate his morals, but anyways, Walter White from Breaking Bad.
I should realize
Abigail Boone: We don't, like, heavily recommend, but recommend. I don't? I don't know. It's kinda, like, dicey. Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Charlie Loften: For Okay. Sure.
Abigail Boone: But if you're into a good storyline, that's one of Yes. The
Charlie Loften: Yes. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, thank you as always.
Thank you for joining us. And again, we would love all your questions to know that you are listening. Anything we we can do, we would love we'd love to hear about it. And thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Cultivate Podcast.
Our hope is that you are taking steps to go deeper in your faith, that you're asking big questions, and you're looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you through our podcast and any other way that we can help you.
Abigail Boone: You can
Charlie Loften: find all our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts, including YouTube. And, again, thank you so much for joining us.