WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:40.013 --> 00:00:41.063 CJ: All right, well live 00:00:41.676 --> 00:00:42.336 Duke: Sweet. 00:00:42.396 --> 00:00:43.086 We're back. 00:00:44.351 --> 00:00:44.701 CJ: again. 00:00:47.466 --> 00:00:50.016 Duke: We really gotta get back to our old cadence. 00:00:50.556 --> 00:00:53.823 CJ: man, duke, I swear good to get together and do these 00:00:53.823 --> 00:00:55.706 things and life sometimes, man. 00:00:56.531 --> 00:00:57.701 Duke: Man, we're grownups. 00:00:57.921 --> 00:00:58.881 I'm not apologizing. 00:01:00.891 --> 00:01:01.251 CJ: No. 00:01:01.251 --> 00:01:02.241 No, exactly right. 00:01:02.241 --> 00:01:03.531 I mean, stuff happens, right? 00:01:03.571 --> 00:01:04.861 , That's just the way it works, 00:01:05.191 --> 00:01:06.451 Duke: Yeah, it's crazy. 00:01:06.451 --> 00:01:07.141 Life happens. 00:01:07.171 --> 00:01:08.506 , Didn't we do an episode on that once, 00:01:08.841 --> 00:01:09.771 CJ: I think we did. 00:01:09.801 --> 00:01:11.001 Duke: times and seasons 00:01:11.241 --> 00:01:11.631 CJ: Yep. 00:01:11.631 --> 00:01:14.241 And about being un unapologetic about it too. 00:01:14.271 --> 00:01:14.661 Yeah. 00:01:14.751 --> 00:01:15.141 Duke: Yeah. 00:01:15.191 --> 00:01:18.101 You can't be all on all the time for everyone. 00:01:18.438 --> 00:01:20.081 CJ: No, it is, definitely a, challenge. 00:01:20.081 --> 00:01:21.758 And So let's just get into it. 00:01:22.633 --> 00:01:22.923 Okay. 00:01:23.738 --> 00:01:24.938 Duke: All right folks, we love you. 00:01:24.968 --> 00:01:26.228 We're so glad to be back. 00:01:26.438 --> 00:01:27.548 what are we talking about today, Corey? 00:01:27.811 --> 00:01:31.351 CJ: All right, duke, today we are talking about, what did we call this? 00:01:31.553 --> 00:01:35.420 Duke: Well, it all started, I've been asked a couple times in the last 00:01:35.420 --> 00:01:40.546 month about how to interview top tier ServiceNow talent, and we know there's 00:01:40.546 --> 00:01:44.970 a range, But certain organizations want like a very, very senior resource 00:01:45.100 --> 00:01:51.071 but the twist here is how do you do that When you yourself are not a top 00:01:51.071 --> 00:01:55.181 tier ServiceNow execution resource, maybe you're just managing the team. 00:01:55.181 --> 00:01:58.421 Maybe you're the political owner of it, but you don't know you know 00:01:58.421 --> 00:02:00.011 how to build on it or whatnot. 00:02:00.971 --> 00:02:04.511 So how do you get the best ServiceNow talent that you can with as little 00:02:04.511 --> 00:02:06.521 knowledge of ServiceNow as possible? 00:02:06.868 --> 00:02:08.848 I don't know how we're gonna get that into a tiny little title. 00:02:09.708 --> 00:02:09.928 CJ: Huh? 00:02:11.113 --> 00:02:11.983 Yeah, no doubt. 00:02:14.263 --> 00:02:15.043 Shrink that. 00:02:15.043 --> 00:02:16.693 It's gonna be like a Bitly title, 00:02:18.973 --> 00:02:20.413 you know, this is a question I get asked. 00:02:20.413 --> 00:02:20.473 Um. 00:02:20.551 --> 00:02:23.118 Not often, but not, rarely either. 00:02:23.355 --> 00:02:26.055 you know, how do you find the best ServiceNow talent, especially 00:02:26.055 --> 00:02:28.515 when you aren't necessarily the best service now talent. 00:02:28.605 --> 00:02:32.655 what should a non-expert in ServiceNow be looking to do 00:02:32.918 --> 00:02:36.288 Duke: Because I think in tech Even if we're not the tech person in tech, 00:02:36.288 --> 00:02:39.628 maybe we're like the managerial, the director, whatever, we have this, 00:02:39.698 --> 00:02:43.088 baseline assumption that I have to ask tech questions to figure out if 00:02:43.088 --> 00:02:45.351 somebody's a real legit player or not. 00:02:45.351 --> 00:02:47.841 And you do like and you do, right? 00:02:48.021 --> 00:02:51.711 But there's other characteristics about them that make them a great talent. 00:02:51.741 --> 00:02:54.711 It's not just their technical expertise, right? 00:02:54.711 --> 00:02:59.105 Like how many episodes do we have about being politically savvy and being. 00:02:59.510 --> 00:02:59.900 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:00.095 --> 00:03:04.715 Duke: like figuring out all the different elements of success that have nothing to 00:03:04.715 --> 00:03:06.425 do with your technical prowess, right? 00:03:06.425 --> 00:03:09.365 And so how do you get that person as well as making sure that 00:03:09.365 --> 00:03:10.595 they actually know their stuff? 00:03:10.595 --> 00:03:14.675 And so we've done some studying and some thinking, and so we are gonna 00:03:14.675 --> 00:03:17.345 bring you three characteristics. 00:03:17.526 --> 00:03:19.956 That you can look for and test for. 00:03:20.256 --> 00:03:24.186 We're gonna teach you how to apply those characteristics to the questions that 00:03:24.186 --> 00:03:29.326 you ask, and then we're gonna talk a little bit about logistics of formally 00:03:29.326 --> 00:03:33.916 testing people as opposed to like just asking questions back and forth. 00:03:33.916 --> 00:03:35.771 And gosh, I hope we have enough time to do it all. 00:03:37.516 --> 00:03:37.876 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:37.876 --> 00:03:41.596 or, we are going to play, you're gonna play this episode back at two x 00:03:43.441 --> 00:03:43.791 Duke: Right. 00:03:44.596 --> 00:03:44.956 Yeah. 00:03:45.046 --> 00:03:45.166 Yeah. 00:03:45.166 --> 00:03:46.306 It'd just be an extra long one. 00:03:46.553 --> 00:03:48.473 so let's talk about the characteristics. 00:03:48.663 --> 00:03:50.663 I came up with this model called the trifecta. 00:03:50.918 --> 00:03:55.898 And we all know that for Apex, ServiceNow Town, these are people I want as 00:03:56.108 --> 00:03:59.738 either principal consultants or my ma. 00:03:59.798 --> 00:04:03.038 Like that would be the partner ecosystem in the, customer ecosystem. 00:04:03.038 --> 00:04:07.695 This would be like your product lead or your main architect or, your main dev. 00:04:07.995 --> 00:04:12.105 But it's gonna be the key, key foundational person on the team. 00:04:12.605 --> 00:04:13.975 Now what are the table stakes? 00:04:14.208 --> 00:04:16.368 What's the one thing I have to have as table stakes? 00:04:16.766 --> 00:04:19.536 CJ: that, that's a good question, duke, like when you're thinking about 00:04:19.536 --> 00:04:22.176 hiring someone, what's the first thing you think that person needs to have? 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:24.250 the first thing I think about is capability. 00:04:24.985 --> 00:04:26.898 Duke: Yeah, can a person even do the work? 00:04:26.988 --> 00:04:27.318 Right. 00:04:27.678 --> 00:04:30.348 There's no sense testing beyond that unless they've 00:04:30.618 --> 00:04:32.268 been in the trenches, you know? 00:04:32.658 --> 00:04:34.758 And so you have to test for capability. 00:04:34.758 --> 00:04:36.888 And I know, I know you're probably thinking, but I, but Duke. 00:04:37.428 --> 00:04:42.738 Like you just told us that you can test for this without having the capability 00:04:43.128 --> 00:04:44.928 promise you we're gonna get there. 00:04:44.928 --> 00:04:46.068 Promise you just hold on. 00:04:46.503 --> 00:04:47.223 CJ: Absolutely. 00:04:47.538 --> 00:04:50.825 Duke: capability is absolutely the number one thing to get in the door. 00:04:50.825 --> 00:04:51.095 Okay? 00:04:51.485 --> 00:04:56.105 But that doesn't make you an Apex resource because we can rent rather cheaply. 00:04:56.900 --> 00:05:01.293 Capability from, the lowest price providers on the face of the earth, right? 00:05:01.923 --> 00:05:07.593 Even they have capable resources, strong technical resources, so, so 00:05:07.593 --> 00:05:09.555 we're missing two parts of the trifecta. 00:05:10.440 --> 00:05:10.680 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:10.710 --> 00:05:13.310 'cause capability is not enough, we're not talking about, you know, 00:05:13.310 --> 00:05:16.910 creating an API, we're talking about hiring a person, right? 00:05:16.910 --> 00:05:22.696 So my next thing would be communication, And you got someone who's capable. 00:05:22.918 --> 00:05:25.318 Now, can they actually communicate with you? 00:05:25.318 --> 00:05:27.028 Can they communicate with your stakeholders? 00:05:27.328 --> 00:05:27.538 Right? 00:05:27.538 --> 00:05:32.195 Can they communicate that capability are they folks who can have a conversation 00:05:32.195 --> 00:05:36.855 and work through The problem statement, In a way that's collaborative and 00:05:36.855 --> 00:05:38.145 explainable and understandable. 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:45.070 Duke: Now what we did was put a lot of serious thought , into how 00:05:45.070 --> 00:05:49.620 do you assess communication skill without just going by your gut. 00:05:50.215 --> 00:05:50.505 CJ: Right. 00:05:50.850 --> 00:05:51.510 Duke: You know what I mean? 00:05:51.910 --> 00:05:54.340 there's some people you just enjoy talking to more. 00:05:54.340 --> 00:05:54.700 Right? 00:05:54.760 --> 00:05:55.270 You know what I mean? 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:55.630 Like 00:05:55.885 --> 00:05:56.185 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:56.185 --> 00:05:56.395 Yeah. 00:05:56.395 --> 00:05:56.845 So those 00:05:56.860 --> 00:05:59.590 Duke: tell you're like that per, that this person's a good communicator 00:05:59.590 --> 00:06:01.540 versus this person's a bad communicator. 00:06:01.540 --> 00:06:02.560 You can usually tell. 00:06:03.775 --> 00:06:03.865 CJ: right. 00:06:04.075 --> 00:06:08.425 Duke: But, but maybe it would help if we understood more points within that. 00:06:08.635 --> 00:06:12.118 what skills fall under the skill of communication. 00:06:12.495 --> 00:06:16.621 And I'll lead off with the first one, , is just validating, understanding. 00:06:17.008 --> 00:06:19.618 how many times Corey, have we been in front of people? 00:06:19.888 --> 00:06:23.278 Like, we, we need to tell somebody you have to do this technical work, right? 00:06:23.278 --> 00:06:25.348 And it's like, yes, yes sir. 00:06:25.348 --> 00:06:25.588 Yes. 00:06:25.588 --> 00:06:26.488 We can get that done. 00:06:26.488 --> 00:06:26.998 Yes. 00:06:27.073 --> 00:06:27.463 CJ: Yep. 00:06:28.108 --> 00:06:31.768 Duke: You know, it's just consultant provider speak for, we'll figure it out. 00:06:31.828 --> 00:06:32.278 We hope 00:06:35.338 --> 00:06:39.358 they might not even understand what we ask them to do, but sometimes 00:06:39.358 --> 00:06:40.708 it's just the answer is yes. 00:06:40.708 --> 00:06:41.855 You don't tell your, boss. 00:06:41.855 --> 00:06:42.275 No. 00:06:42.965 --> 00:06:46.505 So validating understanding would be somebody who, when 00:06:46.505 --> 00:06:49.928 you're asking questions, they might not necessarily say yes. 00:06:49.928 --> 00:06:53.495 No, they repeat back for clarification. 00:06:53.900 --> 00:06:59.270 In the repeat back, you can hear the notes of the things you asked them for. 00:06:59.630 --> 00:07:01.983 So validation of understanding is 0.1 00:07:01.983 --> 00:07:02.913 under communication. 00:07:03.168 --> 00:07:05.298 CJ: Yeah, and just one additional thing to that too, right? 00:07:05.298 --> 00:07:07.488 Like you wanna make sure that the person, when they're repeating it 00:07:07.488 --> 00:07:11.058 back to you, or , rephrasing it into their own words or their own 00:07:11.058 --> 00:07:14.688 perspective, , it doesn't help anyone if they just say the exact same thing 00:07:14.688 --> 00:07:16.318 to you that you've already said to them. 00:07:17.058 --> 00:07:18.333 Duke: We can train in AI for that. 00:07:18.798 --> 00:07:21.738 CJ: Yeah, exactly right. 00:07:21.738 --> 00:07:24.108 Like, you want them to put their lens on it, right? 00:07:24.108 --> 00:07:27.988 Like just have everything that you just said flow through their lens so that 00:07:28.018 --> 00:07:30.268 you understand that they understood. 00:07:31.528 --> 00:07:35.698 Duke: It just reminded me of like when the ais were first coming out for image 00:07:35.698 --> 00:07:40.155 generation and you're like, I want a picture of a Middle Eastern man. 00:07:40.305 --> 00:07:41.505 He must be Middle Eastern. 00:07:41.505 --> 00:07:44.445 He cannot have blue eyes, and all the AI's like blue eyes. 00:07:50.265 --> 00:07:56.655 CJ: Yeah, the, the, the old school AI was just like, we will give you a human and 00:07:56.955 --> 00:08:01.155 we'll, we will put on these additional attributes and we hope you like it. 00:08:02.985 --> 00:08:03.345 Duke: All right. 00:08:03.345 --> 00:08:04.305 Validated understanding. 00:08:04.310 --> 00:08:05.080 What's the next one, Corey? 00:08:05.568 --> 00:08:09.111 CJ: narrative articulation, can the person you that you're speaking 00:08:09.111 --> 00:08:12.741 to explain the benefits, right? 00:08:12.741 --> 00:08:17.631 The risks, the rewards, the roadblocks, the , the value, the problem statement, 00:08:17.871 --> 00:08:19.881 can they actually talk you through? 00:08:19.970 --> 00:08:21.680 whatever the thing is, right? 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:23.780 The thing could be the question that you asked, right? 00:08:23.780 --> 00:08:26.480 Like, you might have set up an example scenario and can 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:27.440 they talk you through that? 00:08:27.740 --> 00:08:32.630 Or the thing might be you're asking them, to come to the table with a, 00:08:32.653 --> 00:08:37.773 story about what X, Y, Z, How do they, how do they communicate that to you? 00:08:38.103 --> 00:08:38.403 Right? 00:08:38.403 --> 00:08:40.173 and is it understandable? 00:08:40.561 --> 00:08:46.261 Duke: We've all been in a room where we're with senior kind of business stakeholders 00:08:46.321 --> 00:08:49.621 who don't know anything about building ServiceNow, and there's some technical 00:08:49.621 --> 00:08:55.195 resource explaining to the Nth level of what technically is wrong with the 00:08:55.195 --> 00:08:57.985 thing and why we're not gonna hit the deadline and what you're looking for. 00:08:57.985 --> 00:09:00.925 Someone there, like when we say narrative articulation, it's kinda like 00:09:00.925 --> 00:09:04.885 understanding who your audience is and being able to abstract to that level. 00:09:05.205 --> 00:09:05.835 CJ: Absolutely. 00:09:06.345 --> 00:09:06.555 Yeah. 00:09:06.555 --> 00:09:07.635 Know your audience. 00:09:07.875 --> 00:09:11.895 That's a, that one's so key, if you're sitting in a room talking to 00:09:11.931 --> 00:09:13.971 the owners of the platform, right? 00:09:13.971 --> 00:09:17.046 You probably don't wanna be super in, in the weed on the tech stuff. 00:09:17.736 --> 00:09:17.956 Duke: No. 00:09:18.186 --> 00:09:19.086 CJ: And vice versa. 00:09:19.086 --> 00:09:22.896 If you're in a room full of developers, they probably wanna understand the nuts 00:09:22.896 --> 00:09:26.346 and bolts of how you built that business role or that script and include, right? 00:09:26.346 --> 00:09:27.306 So go a little deeper. 00:09:28.501 --> 00:09:29.256 Duke: It is kinda like that. 00:09:29.286 --> 00:09:31.566 There's a YouTube channel that I liked for a while where. 00:09:32.301 --> 00:09:36.411 They get some profound expert in something like astrophysics and they'll 00:09:36.411 --> 00:09:39.351 like explain black holes in five levels. 00:09:39.411 --> 00:09:42.441 And so it's like the first start off with like some kid in kindergarten 00:09:43.041 --> 00:09:43.261 CJ: Yes. 00:09:44.391 --> 00:09:46.941 Duke: and then all the way up to like a physics grad student. 00:09:47.168 --> 00:09:50.228 but yeah, it is that, that's the kind of thing, being able to read the room, 00:09:50.228 --> 00:09:55.058 read the audience, understand what this particular conversation needs is, 00:09:55.058 --> 00:09:56.533 what we mean by narrative articulation. 00:09:57.363 --> 00:09:57.683 CJ: Absolutely. 00:09:58.328 --> 00:10:00.878 Duke: So this is two pillars of communications, validates 00:10:00.878 --> 00:10:02.258 understanding narrative articulation. 00:10:02.258 --> 00:10:04.658 The third is persuasion. 00:10:05.288 --> 00:10:09.181 you know, that magic that some people have where, they can 00:10:09.181 --> 00:10:11.341 convince people to see it their way. 00:10:11.511 --> 00:10:13.601 CJ: no, I call that the art of, telling people, no, I'm 00:10:13.601 --> 00:10:14.681 making them love me for it. 00:10:17.075 --> 00:10:21.125 Duke: I call it the art of Bs, but not, not because, not because 00:10:21.125 --> 00:10:24.305 they're speaking bs, not because they're speaking Bs because it's 00:10:24.305 --> 00:10:26.555 just, it's so hard to quantify. 00:10:27.230 --> 00:10:28.010 CJ: Absolutely. 00:10:28.190 --> 00:10:30.050 It is very hard to quantify persuasion, right? 00:10:30.100 --> 00:10:31.870 , This isn't the Star Wars universe, right? 00:10:31.870 --> 00:10:33.100 There's no Jedi mind tricks. 00:10:33.260 --> 00:10:35.670 These are not the joys you're looking for, you do actually 00:10:35.670 --> 00:10:37.590 have to have a conversation. 00:10:37.590 --> 00:10:41.250 But I think it, this one's like a next level skill, honestly, right? 00:10:41.250 --> 00:10:45.930 Because you gotta have the base in place first before you can even evaluate, 00:10:45.930 --> 00:10:48.210 or even u utilize persuasion, right? 00:10:48.210 --> 00:10:50.010 Like so on both ends, right? 00:10:50.040 --> 00:10:51.840 Duke: and it comes in different flavors, right, too. 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:55.690 Like some people got it because, they're incredibly good looking and 00:10:55.690 --> 00:10:59.290 they're super confident and super magnetic and they were born that way 00:10:59.290 --> 00:11:00.400 and you just can't help it, right? 00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:00.940 It's nature. 00:11:01.465 --> 00:11:02.095 CJ: Absolutely. 00:11:02.470 --> 00:11:05.440 Duke: And then other people are just very, very good at, you know, it's like the 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.120 people that always have the good point. 00:11:07.180 --> 00:11:07.450 You know, 00:11:07.975 --> 00:11:08.425 CJ: Yes. 00:11:09.430 --> 00:11:10.240 Duke: are we ready to rock? 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:11.110 No, we can't go that way. 00:11:11.110 --> 00:11:11.710 Why not? 00:11:11.740 --> 00:11:12.610 Because of this. 00:11:12.700 --> 00:11:14.230 Uh, that's a good point. 00:11:14.485 --> 00:11:14.995 CJ: Right. 00:11:19.015 --> 00:11:19.615 Yes. 00:11:19.975 --> 00:11:23.245 Nobody likes that guy, by the way, but he saves some lives. 00:11:26.725 --> 00:11:27.025 Duke: Oh boy. 00:11:27.175 --> 00:11:29.395 Yeah, so persuasion, it comes in different flavors. 00:11:29.395 --> 00:11:32.065 You don't have to be like the incredibly super good looking, 00:11:32.065 --> 00:11:33.325 ultra charismatic person. 00:11:33.355 --> 00:11:35.605 It can come in your ability to make a case as well. 00:11:35.871 --> 00:11:37.131 And then what's the last one, Corey? 00:11:37.251 --> 00:11:38.336 The fourth pillar of communication. 00:11:39.006 --> 00:11:40.026 CJ: Interrogation. 00:11:40.246 --> 00:11:45.316 Can the person that you're talking to go deeper on the subject, 00:11:45.486 --> 00:11:47.676 Without you feeding it to them? 00:11:48.086 --> 00:11:52.556 Can you come with a, I won't say surface level, but a setup, right? 00:11:52.556 --> 00:11:57.206 A decent setup for, you know, the conversation and or the problem statement. 00:11:57.206 --> 00:11:58.826 And can that person take that? 00:11:59.366 --> 00:12:04.920 Then dive deeper and come out with more detail and more understanding and add 00:12:04.920 --> 00:12:09.720 things to the situation that weren't there previously, but are still relevant. 00:12:10.056 --> 00:12:14.893 Duke: This is where I feel like the BA role, when they're a good ba, they 00:12:14.893 --> 00:12:16.688 have this interrogation skill down pat. 00:12:17.388 --> 00:12:18.158 CJ: Yeah, I. 00:12:18.343 --> 00:12:21.213 Duke: Because this is the skill you use, when somebody says, 00:12:21.213 --> 00:12:23.643 deploy ITSM, what's the goal? 00:12:24.033 --> 00:12:24.363 Right. 00:12:24.453 --> 00:12:26.553 The, the goal is to deploy ITSM. 00:12:26.883 --> 00:12:27.363 Okay. 00:12:27.723 --> 00:12:30.603 Why do you wanna, like, why do you wanna deploy ITSM? 00:12:30.603 --> 00:12:33.543 What's like, why do you literally wanna spend a quarter 00:12:33.543 --> 00:12:34.923 million dollars doing this? 00:12:35.103 --> 00:12:36.603 What's the, you see what I mean? 00:12:36.603 --> 00:12:40.323 Like, it's breaking it down from the statement of I want. 00:12:40.496 --> 00:12:44.636 to, something that we can actually have legitimate requirements out of. 00:12:45.025 --> 00:12:45.265 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:45.265 --> 00:12:49.851 And it's super important, Because it matters to the project often, like why 00:12:49.851 --> 00:12:52.941 you're actually doing the project, because there are gonna be some situations where 00:12:52.941 --> 00:12:56.691 you're gonna have to make decisions on the fly because not everything gets 00:12:56.691 --> 00:13:01.328 figured out in the, preparation room, So how do you make that decision on the fly? 00:13:01.328 --> 00:13:04.848 Or do you just wait and , potentially delay the project, right? 00:13:04.848 --> 00:13:07.038 Because you're waiting to get an answer back from a stakeholder, 00:13:07.248 --> 00:13:08.358 and that might take a week. 00:13:08.658 --> 00:13:11.148 Duke: Or how many times is this gonna be wrong until we get it right? 00:13:11.148 --> 00:13:12.888 Because nobody really drilled down, 00:13:13.413 --> 00:13:13.803 CJ: Yep. 00:13:13.833 --> 00:13:17.343 And so we're six or seven levels deep, but nobody understands why. 00:13:17.758 --> 00:13:18.158 Duke: Mm-hmm. 00:13:19.353 --> 00:13:19.623 CJ: Yep, 00:13:19.683 --> 00:13:25.000 Duke: Or, or we're like narrowing down on V one of this app, but 00:13:25.150 --> 00:13:26.975 nobody really understands what it does for the customers. 00:13:28.180 --> 00:13:28.540 CJ: yep. 00:13:28.750 --> 00:13:30.130 Duke: We just got a whole bunch of technical stuff. 00:13:30.130 --> 00:13:33.760 So interrogation is the art of extraction of information. 00:13:34.540 --> 00:13:34.840 Okay? 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:36.880 So those are the four pillars of communication. 00:13:37.150 --> 00:13:41.200 And the two pillars of the trifecta are capability and communication. 00:13:41.350 --> 00:13:43.180 And the last pillar is my favorite. 00:13:43.410 --> 00:13:49.470 If you have somebody who is fully capable, maximally capable, and maximally 00:13:49.470 --> 00:13:52.380 communicative, what is the one thing. 00:13:52.770 --> 00:13:57.210 That differentiates that candidate from the perfect trifecta 00:13:57.210 --> 00:14:01.920 candidate, and the word is agency. 00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:08.310 Can the candidate self determine what needs to be done and take the action 00:14:08.460 --> 00:14:11.460 without any kind of managerial catalyst? 00:14:11.893 --> 00:14:12.103 Okay. 00:14:12.103 --> 00:14:15.858 If someone is highly skilled, and capable, and they're highly communicative. 00:14:16.091 --> 00:14:20.258 but they need to be told what problems to solve, Then they're, 00:14:20.258 --> 00:14:22.538 just shy of the apex trifecta. 00:14:22.928 --> 00:14:26.468 But if they have high agency, this means they're already gone 00:14:26.468 --> 00:14:27.698 out and hunting their own game. 00:14:27.851 --> 00:14:32.998 They need as little as your influence and energy as possible in order 00:14:32.998 --> 00:14:35.278 for them to make drop the coin. 00:14:37.798 --> 00:14:40.438 In order for them to make a maximal impact for your organization. 00:14:40.438 --> 00:14:44.398 So you get the three of those pillars, capability, communication and agency, 00:14:44.848 --> 00:14:46.648 and now you have the trifecta resource. 00:14:46.648 --> 00:14:51.958 And we are excellent pattern recognition machines like we go through this 00:14:51.958 --> 00:14:56.098 process when we are evaluating contractors to do work on our house. 00:14:56.938 --> 00:15:01.408 When we're buying cars, when we're doing anything really significant, we 00:15:01.408 --> 00:15:06.291 want to know is this person that I'm standing across from, the real deal. 00:15:06.621 --> 00:15:09.921 And we've done that, since we were living in capes, you know, 00:15:10.521 --> 00:15:11.151 CJ: Yeah, 00:15:11.271 --> 00:15:12.861 Duke: trust the fact that you can spot this. 00:15:12.861 --> 00:15:16.341 But I think a lot of people just need to know that these are the properties 00:15:16.341 --> 00:15:18.771 that exist and what to look for. 00:15:18.990 --> 00:15:21.450 one person asked me, they said, well, what if I asked them, 00:15:21.676 --> 00:15:22.906 what's the hardest thing you did? 00:15:22.906 --> 00:15:23.926 And they say, write a script. 00:15:23.926 --> 00:15:25.496 Include what do we do then? 00:15:25.526 --> 00:15:28.276 Well, they certainly haven't demonstrated any kind of narrative 00:15:28.276 --> 00:15:32.203 articulation in communication, and they haven't provided you any agency. 00:15:32.636 --> 00:15:34.946 So you're getting your answer from the person 00:15:35.621 --> 00:15:36.521 CJ: absolutely, 00:15:36.626 --> 00:15:38.276 Duke: they're showing you right. 00:15:38.966 --> 00:15:42.046 So if you're in a position where you're like, gosh, I felt that was lacking, 00:15:42.046 --> 00:15:44.986 or I wish they would've told me more, or I'm having trouble extracting 00:15:44.986 --> 00:15:46.456 this information outta the person. 00:15:46.966 --> 00:15:50.116 You're lacking the communication in the agency aspect. 00:15:50.986 --> 00:15:51.766 CJ: Man, let me tell you. 00:15:51.766 --> 00:15:52.936 That's so true, duke. 00:15:53.036 --> 00:15:56.876 , The person who has this level of agency that you wanna see is a person 00:15:56.876 --> 00:16:00.266 that you can ask a bad question and that person can take that bad 00:16:00.266 --> 00:16:04.571 question and turn that into a way to progress the conversation to the next. 00:16:05.406 --> 00:16:05.796 Level. 00:16:05.970 --> 00:16:08.880 They don't have to know exactly what you were trying to get at, but they can 00:16:08.880 --> 00:16:13.740 still take that information and put some thought behind it and say, well, were 00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:16.920 you trying to, or were you asking me? 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:19.800 Or, this is the way I perceive that question. 00:16:19.910 --> 00:16:21.290 And then go from there. 00:16:21.710 --> 00:16:24.500 , If you don't have that level of agency, you get an answer. 00:16:24.500 --> 00:16:26.390 Like, you know, so what's the most exciting thing you've done? 00:16:26.390 --> 00:16:27.260 I built the script include. 00:16:28.280 --> 00:16:28.610 Okay. 00:16:28.955 --> 00:16:31.975 Well, most of us , know that a script include is a container, 00:16:33.355 --> 00:16:35.275 So it is not necessarily a thing. 00:16:35.275 --> 00:16:38.155 And so if you're gonna tell me the most exciting thing you did was build 00:16:38.155 --> 00:16:42.565 a a container for code, then you need to tell me why that's important. 00:16:43.400 --> 00:16:46.406 Duke: And not even technically important, but what happened? 00:16:48.626 --> 00:16:52.706 CJ: Exactly like what turned this boring thing, exciting. 00:16:53.859 --> 00:16:56.949 Duke: We're still in a world where, okay, maybe I know what 00:16:56.949 --> 00:17:02.289 characteristics to listen for, but there also needs some coaching about, 00:17:02.522 --> 00:17:04.502 I call them hard to fake questions. 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.790 Or questions where you require more than just a definition. 00:17:08.790 --> 00:17:14.010 If somebody was like exquisite, like memory recall, really good reading, and 00:17:14.010 --> 00:17:17.520 just like went over tons and tons of ServiceNow material, they could probably 00:17:17.520 --> 00:17:20.936 do a convincing definitional interview, 00:17:21.281 --> 00:17:21.611 CJ: Yep. 00:17:22.291 --> 00:17:24.691 Duke: Without even really having demonstrated experience. 00:17:24.691 --> 00:17:27.811 So here's some categories of hard to fake questions. 00:17:27.811 --> 00:17:30.781 So number one is define and contrast. 00:17:31.171 --> 00:17:35.905 This is what is the difference between X and Y and Y? 00:17:35.905 --> 00:17:36.655 Does it matter? 00:17:37.071 --> 00:17:40.958 CJ: because typically you don't want like a yes or no, answer to a question, right? 00:17:41.073 --> 00:17:41.678 Duke: Yes or no? 00:17:41.683 --> 00:17:42.493 Answers are the. 00:17:45.668 --> 00:17:46.208 CJ: Right. 00:17:46.358 --> 00:17:49.298 Like if you get into a spot where you're conducting a conversation, 00:17:49.328 --> 00:17:52.115 with a a potential hire, , and all of a sudden the only thing 00:17:52.115 --> 00:17:53.675 you're getting back are yes or nos. 00:17:53.801 --> 00:17:57.171 You have went down the wrong route at some point, , you found yourself 00:17:57.171 --> 00:18:00.471 in a place where you didn't expect to be in this, in this interview. 00:18:00.471 --> 00:18:01.761 And that alone. 00:18:02.191 --> 00:18:04.575 Can sometimes be enough, To say, yeah. 00:18:04.575 --> 00:18:05.355 Wrong person, 00:18:05.930 --> 00:18:09.830 Duke: They got a, they got a 50 50 chance of being right, even if they don't know. 00:18:10.185 --> 00:18:10.785 CJ: Yes. 00:18:11.780 --> 00:18:14.150 Duke: So definitely no yes or no answers. 00:18:14.150 --> 00:18:17.450 But if you ask them a define and contrast, this requires both 00:18:17.450 --> 00:18:19.670 definitional and contextual knowledge. 00:18:20.115 --> 00:18:20.805 CJ: Absolutely. 00:18:21.220 --> 00:18:23.650 Duke: Like what's the difference between, I don't know, a UI 00:18:24.040 --> 00:18:25.330 policy and a script include? 00:18:26.285 --> 00:18:26.615 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:26.705 --> 00:18:27.545 And why does it matter? 00:18:27.755 --> 00:18:29.080 Yeah, or, and 00:18:29.470 --> 00:18:29.890 Duke: No, wait. 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:30.250 Oh wait. 00:18:30.285 --> 00:18:30.505 Ah. 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:33.130 A UI policy and a client script. 00:18:33.445 --> 00:18:37.045 CJ: yeah, I was gonna say, or I say UI put policy in the data policy, right? 00:18:37.285 --> 00:18:37.675 Like, you know, 00:18:37.675 --> 00:18:38.455 same difference. 00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:38.950 Duke: good one. 00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:39.520 Good one. 00:18:39.665 --> 00:18:39.955 Yeah. 00:18:40.090 --> 00:18:40.540 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:40.540 --> 00:18:41.170 That's a good one. 00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:41.470 That's a good 00:18:41.515 --> 00:18:44.575 CJ: You know, slowly, I mean, 'cause you can use both of those in most 00:18:44.575 --> 00:18:48.565 cases, but there are some cases where you only want the data policy, 00:18:49.090 --> 00:18:49.360 Duke: Yep. 00:18:49.810 --> 00:18:51.610 And you know what the paradox is? 00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:52.720 You know what the paradox is? 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:56.890 If you know nothing about ServiceNow, you can ask 'em a question like that. 00:18:57.280 --> 00:18:59.980 What's the difference between a UI policy and a data policy? 00:19:00.313 --> 00:19:04.746 Even if you don't know the answer, if you feel convinced by them, you might 00:19:04.746 --> 00:19:06.156 have the resource you're looking for. 00:19:06.516 --> 00:19:06.846 CJ: Yeah, 00:19:07.013 --> 00:19:08.303 ' Duke: cause we can see it, right? 00:19:08.476 --> 00:19:12.106 there's a difference in somebody's presence, in their voice, even if 00:19:12.106 --> 00:19:13.576 you can't quite see them, right? 00:19:14.866 --> 00:19:17.956 can tell when somebody's giving you the definition versus giving 00:19:17.956 --> 00:19:20.100 you the hard fought experience. 00:19:21.105 --> 00:19:23.355 CJ: Yeah, it's just gonna be additional context to it, right? 00:19:23.355 --> 00:19:25.155 Because when you, I mean, Google, right? 00:19:25.155 --> 00:19:27.855 Like what's the difference between a UI policy and a data policy? 00:19:27.855 --> 00:19:29.415 You'll get a fairly decent answer. 00:19:29.535 --> 00:19:33.675 You won't get a fairly decent answer that passes an interview like this, 00:19:33.705 --> 00:19:35.415 you'll get a definitional answer. 00:19:35.595 --> 00:19:35.745 You 00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:37.315 Duke: it's kind of an uncanny valley of it, 00:19:37.485 --> 00:19:38.805 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:39.105 --> 00:19:40.425 you want a contextual answer. 00:19:40.935 --> 00:19:41.145 Right. 00:19:41.205 --> 00:19:45.748 The difference is that you, a data policy, prohibits, these things at the, database, 00:19:45.808 --> 00:19:48.028 okay, and why would I want to do that? 00:19:48.028 --> 00:19:48.208 Right? 00:19:48.208 --> 00:19:50.098 Like, 'cause that's, to me it's like, okay, so you know the 00:19:50.098 --> 00:19:54.538 definition, why would I wanna pick that versus a UI policy, right? 00:19:54.538 --> 00:19:55.738 Like, give that context too. 00:19:56.098 --> 00:19:57.688 Context is king and key. 00:19:58.289 --> 00:20:01.079 the next one, duke, is extremely important as well, right? 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:02.669 Wisdom from experience. 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:05.434 Those are the situations where you're asking someone, Hey. 00:20:05.661 --> 00:20:09.888 Tell me about an experience when Dot, dot, dot, whatever. 00:20:09.888 --> 00:20:11.208 Dot, dot dot might be. 00:20:11.778 --> 00:20:15.881 Duke: and this will, definitively show if they're good communicators or not. 00:20:16.871 --> 00:20:17.561 CJ: Absolutely. 00:20:17.801 --> 00:20:18.041 Duke: Right? 00:20:18.101 --> 00:20:19.721 CJ: now you, 'cause you're asking them to tell your story, 00:20:20.591 --> 00:20:21.761 Duke: from your own life? 00:20:21.821 --> 00:20:21.911 Right? 00:20:21.941 --> 00:20:22.481 CJ: Yes. 00:20:24.491 --> 00:20:28.271 Duke: Which, which supposedly has been spent doing hard things up to 00:20:28.276 --> 00:20:32.086 now, because now you're applying for a really serious senior position. 00:20:32.326 --> 00:20:35.356 So you had to have been in a trench fight or two, so. 00:20:36.721 --> 00:20:39.501 If they struggle here, you're dealing with maybe somebody who's lower 00:20:39.501 --> 00:20:40.911 on that communication spectrum. 00:20:41.344 --> 00:20:44.524 there's a few things we want you to test for here. 00:20:44.524 --> 00:20:46.774 So get them to tell multiple stories. 00:20:47.148 --> 00:20:53.441 I ask 'em about technical and political situations, tell me about the, best 00:20:53.441 --> 00:20:55.871 app deployment you ever had, right? 00:20:56.031 --> 00:21:00.038 Tell me about the most sensitive political situation you are in. 00:21:00.038 --> 00:21:00.908 Did you win and lose? 00:21:00.968 --> 00:21:02.858 Win or lose and how? 00:21:03.353 --> 00:21:03.743 CJ: Right. 00:21:04.128 --> 00:21:06.214 Duke: Because it's real life y'all. 00:21:07.594 --> 00:21:11.854 Um, getting the most technically capable resources doesn't mean you win. 00:21:12.308 --> 00:21:16.208 CJ: Sometimes just knowing how to do the thing isn't enough, You need 00:21:16.208 --> 00:21:19.508 somebody who can convince the people who hold the power to allow the thing 00:21:19.508 --> 00:21:21.228 to be done And that's important. 00:21:21.468 --> 00:21:23.204 and look, the level that we're talking about. 00:21:23.353 --> 00:21:27.463 these things we're not at a, what is a business rule level, the person 00:21:27.463 --> 00:21:30.699 that you're hiring is going to be interacting with some level of 00:21:30.699 --> 00:21:34.959 leadership, even if it's just the leadership of the platform itself. 00:21:35.153 --> 00:21:38.669 , The person that you're interviewing is going to have some communication 00:21:38.669 --> 00:21:43.529 with leadership, and so it's important, that that person can speak 00:21:43.529 --> 00:21:48.923 to both technical and political, situations and, hard things in those 00:21:48.923 --> 00:21:50.488 situations and how they handled them. 00:21:50.818 --> 00:21:51.168 Right? 00:21:51.323 --> 00:21:52.823 I don't wanna know just about successes. 00:21:52.823 --> 00:21:53.183 I ain't learn. 00:21:53.183 --> 00:21:54.968 I I've never learned anything when I've succeeded at. 00:21:55.928 --> 00:21:56.918 I'll just be honest, right? 00:21:56.918 --> 00:21:59.858 , All of my heartfelt lessons have come when I failed and fell on 00:21:59.858 --> 00:22:02.348 my face and it's like, oh man. 00:22:02.348 --> 00:22:03.668 that's what a hole is. 00:22:03.848 --> 00:22:04.808 Don't step in that. 00:22:05.588 --> 00:22:05.918 Duke: Yep. 00:22:06.668 --> 00:22:08.948 Once bitten, twice, shy, all that stuff, right? 00:22:09.188 --> 00:22:09.608 Um, 00:22:10.688 --> 00:22:13.943 CJ: So if you ask me to like tell you a story about where I screwed up, or 00:22:14.228 --> 00:22:18.068 if you ask me to tell you a story about something that resonates with me, I'm 00:22:18.068 --> 00:22:19.143 going to go straight to the screw ups. 00:22:20.453 --> 00:22:23.033 all the stuff that I did well is just not, not exciting. 00:22:23.406 --> 00:22:26.376 Duke: You don't wanna hire a bodyguard that's never been punched in the face. 00:22:27.366 --> 00:22:27.816 You know, 00:22:29.151 --> 00:22:29.371 CJ: yes. 00:22:29.946 --> 00:22:33.533 Duke: like you might have all the technique in the entire world, But 00:22:33.533 --> 00:22:33.683 CJ: Yep. 00:22:34.613 --> 00:22:35.483 Duke: Who, who said it? 00:22:35.483 --> 00:22:37.553 Everybody's got a plan until you get punched in the face. 00:22:37.598 --> 00:22:41.628 CJ: Mike Tyson and I actually went and looked it up. 00:22:41.628 --> 00:22:42.738 He actually did say it. 00:22:43.998 --> 00:22:45.408 So that was not an internet meme. 00:22:45.408 --> 00:22:45.708 That's 00:22:45.903 --> 00:22:48.753 Duke: Yeah, that sounds like some serious Mike Tyson wisdom too. 00:22:49.063 --> 00:22:49.573 but it's true. 00:22:49.573 --> 00:22:54.063 there are people with good technical chops who have never stood in the fire 00:22:54.123 --> 00:22:56.573 of, a room full of angry stakeholders. 00:22:56.963 --> 00:22:57.253 CJ: Yeah. 00:22:57.863 --> 00:23:00.713 Duke: Or a stakeholder who like, I want mine now too. 00:23:00.713 --> 00:23:05.363 And not realizing that it's not them versus you, it's them versus their peers 00:23:05.363 --> 00:23:06.983 who also want their stuff prioritized. 00:23:06.983 --> 00:23:10.553 So anyways, uh, be sure to ask about both victory and defeat. 00:23:10.703 --> 00:23:15.443 Be sure to ask both technical and political, and you can ask a wide variety. 00:23:15.443 --> 00:23:18.683 You can just pick out features, like tell me about an experience 00:23:18.683 --> 00:23:19.793 you've had with the catalog. 00:23:20.123 --> 00:23:20.813 With Portal. 00:23:20.813 --> 00:23:23.363 With script include, but also higher level stuff. 00:23:23.363 --> 00:23:25.883 What's the best thing you ever deployed in ServiceNow? 00:23:26.508 --> 00:23:26.838 CJ: Yeah. 00:23:27.468 --> 00:23:30.418 How did you manage to get budget, for, that new app, right, that 00:23:30.418 --> 00:23:34.598 was, that you felt was gonna save your team,, 20% productivity? 00:23:35.063 --> 00:23:35.363 Duke: Alright. 00:23:35.363 --> 00:23:38.993 There's a third category that we came up with for hard to fake questions,, 00:23:39.243 --> 00:23:41.433 we call it utility and consequence. 00:23:41.973 --> 00:23:45.113 . This would be a little bit lower down the totem pole than tell me 00:23:45.113 --> 00:23:46.403 about a custom app or whatever. 00:23:46.433 --> 00:23:51.803 But this would be like, tell me about a time you used a record producer. 00:23:53.813 --> 00:23:54.413 There you go. 00:23:55.403 --> 00:23:57.833 Tell me about a time you like but you see the difference there. 00:23:57.833 --> 00:24:00.653 It's like, what is a record producer versus tell me about a 00:24:00.653 --> 00:24:02.483 time you used a record producer. 00:24:03.399 --> 00:24:05.799 It one is a lot harder to answer and. 00:24:06.714 --> 00:24:10.524 Possibly shows, some agency shows some communication ability. 00:24:10.734 --> 00:24:13.284 Like you might not even know what a record producer is, but if they 00:24:13.284 --> 00:24:16.554 give you a convincing answer, like maybe they teach you something and 00:24:16.554 --> 00:24:17.784 you got your good communicator. 00:24:18.349 --> 00:24:21.156 , CJ: That last piece that's really good, you might not know and 00:24:21.156 --> 00:24:22.296 maybe they teach you something. 00:24:22.806 --> 00:24:28.206 I think in almost every situation, the person that you wanna hire as an 00:24:28.206 --> 00:24:32.086 outcome of this process you should walk away from the interview thinking. 00:24:32.476 --> 00:24:32.896 Damn. 00:24:33.286 --> 00:24:37.456 I know more now than when I went in thanks to talking to that person. 00:24:38.296 --> 00:24:41.086 If you don't get that immediate warm and fuzzy, I'm not gonna say 00:24:41.086 --> 00:24:45.676 that's not the person, but it's not a clear cut sign that it's the person. 00:24:45.946 --> 00:24:48.766 I should be able to walk out of the situation and think, man, I 00:24:48.766 --> 00:24:51.166 didn't know you could actually do that with scripted rest APIs. 00:24:51.616 --> 00:24:51.826 Huh. 00:24:51.886 --> 00:24:52.756 That's pretty interesting. 00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.373 Duke: You know what, there's a fourth category of hard to fake questions. 00:24:56.373 --> 00:24:58.713 I just didn't even like snap to until now. 00:24:59.078 --> 00:24:59.258 CJ: What 00:24:59.333 --> 00:25:02.963 Duke: The fourth, the fourth category is opinion questions. 00:25:03.428 --> 00:25:04.838 CJ: Ooh, yes. 00:25:05.513 --> 00:25:07.253 Duke: not what is what isn't. 00:25:07.493 --> 00:25:09.533 Or did you, ever deploy ITSM? 00:25:09.533 --> 00:25:12.263 Like, Hey Robert, , have you ever deployed ITSM? 00:25:12.263 --> 00:25:13.253 Yes, a bunch of times. 00:25:13.253 --> 00:25:17.123 What's your least favorite part of ITSM as on the platform? 00:25:17.588 --> 00:25:18.008 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:18.443 --> 00:25:19.793 Duke: Now, you don't have to tell ServiceNow that you're 00:25:19.793 --> 00:25:20.873 asking these questions, but 00:25:23.078 --> 00:25:23.618 CJ: Exactly. 00:25:23.933 --> 00:25:27.923 Duke: you can discover a lot by asking somebody, like what would they improve if 00:25:27.923 --> 00:25:29.783 they could rebuild this part of the app? 00:25:30.431 --> 00:25:34.961 CJ: Or what's your least favorite part of the deployment process for ITSM? 00:25:36.161 --> 00:25:36.761 Duke: Oh yeah, 00:25:37.276 --> 00:25:37.626 CJ: Right. 00:25:38.081 --> 00:25:40.371 Because there are some parts of this process that you will 00:25:40.371 --> 00:25:41.931 have to go through, right? 00:25:41.931 --> 00:25:46.101 Like you can't have A-I-T-S-M without having either some kind of category tree. 00:25:46.101 --> 00:25:46.426 I know. 00:25:47.016 --> 00:25:52.776 Ask you about category trees, but, or some kind of function in CMDB, 00:25:52.952 --> 00:25:57.539 you gotta have something there to take up that, categorization aspect, 00:25:57.609 --> 00:25:59.244 which is that, important or not? 00:25:59.244 --> 00:25:59.394 Right? 00:25:59.394 --> 00:26:00.819 Like, you know, things like that, so, oh. 00:26:01.314 --> 00:26:04.044 Duke: You can also ask it in the opposite direction, like, what's your favorite 00:26:04.044 --> 00:26:08.740 feature on ServiceNow, or favorite feature of, whatever area you're in, 00:26:08.740 --> 00:26:12.944 like CSM or facilities or, what's your favorite outcome that you've provided? 00:26:13.679 --> 00:26:16.475 With that, but , it takes a certain level of experience 00:26:16.475 --> 00:26:18.995 to be opinionated on products, 00:26:19.145 --> 00:26:19.775 CJ: Yes. 00:26:19.775 --> 00:26:20.225 Thank you. 00:26:20.225 --> 00:26:20.765 That's great. 00:26:20.770 --> 00:26:23.989 That's exactly it, you can't have an opinion unless you've actually been in 00:26:23.989 --> 00:26:26.239 a fire long enough to have an opinion. 00:26:26.412 --> 00:26:28.437 What's your favorite part of the platform, duke? 00:26:28.837 --> 00:26:28.957 I. 00:26:32.247 --> 00:26:32.887 Duke: probably flow designer. 00:26:33.792 --> 00:26:34.182 CJ: Yeah. 00:26:34.182 --> 00:26:35.052 That doesn't surprise me. 00:26:36.642 --> 00:26:41.555 Duke: And it wasn't always, there was a time where if somebody said, what does 00:26:41.555 --> 00:26:43.025 ServiceNow have to work on the most? 00:26:43.025 --> 00:26:44.195 I would've said, flow designer. 00:26:44.555 --> 00:26:51.209 But they have a great PM over that and he is taken it so far I, I love it. 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.929 And I know there's a lot of raw devs who are like, well, it's just, faster. 00:26:56.589 --> 00:26:59.102 If I code it and I can, get that at some level. 00:26:59.102 --> 00:27:05.162 But to me, the spirit, the beating heart of ServiceNow has been how much 00:27:05.162 --> 00:27:10.179 can we build with minimizing the amount of development talent that you need? 00:27:10.617 --> 00:27:15.567 Whizzbang developer can get this done in an hour with raw code, but 00:27:15.567 --> 00:27:18.807 then they go to the next job or whatever, and somebody who's not 00:27:18.807 --> 00:27:20.547 a whizzbang developer inherits it. 00:27:21.387 --> 00:27:22.287 They can't even read it. 00:27:22.347 --> 00:27:22.767 You know, like, 00:27:23.262 --> 00:27:23.742 CJ: Yeah. 00:27:23.802 --> 00:27:24.252 Yeah, 00:27:24.927 --> 00:27:27.037 Duke: anyway, we could do the whole , flow designer versus not 00:27:27.037 --> 00:27:28.987 Flow designer as a separate episode. 00:27:28.992 --> 00:27:31.177 But Flow Designer is probably one of my favorite things. 00:27:31.177 --> 00:27:34.777 'cause it's, it's kind of universally applicable, like every module can use it. 00:27:35.062 --> 00:27:35.152 CJ: I 00:27:35.182 --> 00:27:37.732 Duke: Every skill level of person can do it. 00:27:37.912 --> 00:27:41.602 There's just a lot of clever stuff in there too, like I just love using it. 00:27:42.082 --> 00:27:42.622 What about you? 00:27:42.937 --> 00:27:48.290 CJ: Two things, one is the integration, set module, So think transform mapping, 00:27:48.500 --> 00:27:50.270 external data sources, that sort of thing. 00:27:50.510 --> 00:27:53.650 I like pulling data in , from various sources. 00:27:54.060 --> 00:27:58.410 And then normalizing it and then using it in my Service Now processes and apps. 00:27:58.860 --> 00:28:02.720 that one is probably my favorite one because of what you can do with the 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.190 data during the normalization or the transform process, there's so many 00:28:06.190 --> 00:28:10.390 different ways to script it or key certain things to happen based on 00:28:10.390 --> 00:28:11.980 data that you're importing, right? 00:28:11.980 --> 00:28:15.100 It's just a, it's almost like a blue sky, and that's what I like about it. 00:28:15.280 --> 00:28:19.990 , The second one would be a app that is now unfortunately retired, but would 00:28:20.050 --> 00:28:21.820 have been my number one if it wasn't. 00:28:21.820 --> 00:28:24.277 And that's data certification, like data cer. 00:28:27.149 --> 00:28:30.879 when I tried to add it, , it was like, yeah, no, that's gone, 00:28:31.644 --> 00:28:33.264 Duke: Oh, I love data search. 00:28:33.324 --> 00:28:33.804 Oh, man. 00:28:35.469 --> 00:28:35.649 CJ: dude. 00:28:35.874 --> 00:28:36.624 Duke: I gotta be careful when I. 00:28:39.159 --> 00:28:43.367 CJ: so I love data certification and the reason I love it, is because like. 00:28:43.530 --> 00:28:46.590 Service Now has a tendency of building apps and then 00:28:46.623 --> 00:28:47.924 putting guardrails around them. 00:28:48.044 --> 00:28:49.634 It's like, oh yeah, data certification. 00:28:49.634 --> 00:28:51.014 You can only use it on a task table, Uhuh. 00:28:51.374 --> 00:28:53.684 Actually you can't, you can use it anywhere, right? 00:28:53.684 --> 00:28:56.474 It's just a, it's a little filter in a business rule or 00:28:56.474 --> 00:28:57.764 something somewhere, right? 00:28:57.764 --> 00:29:00.404 You just comment at a little piece of code and boom, all of a sudden data start 00:29:00.404 --> 00:29:01.904 can run on every table in the instance. 00:29:01.934 --> 00:29:03.134 Shh, don't tell anyone. 00:29:03.602 --> 00:29:06.387 but, but then you can do certain things with that. 00:29:07.497 --> 00:29:13.637 being able to certify anything opens the door to keeping everything 00:29:13.817 --> 00:29:16.704 running correctly, and that's the reason that I love it so much. 00:29:16.704 --> 00:29:16.884 Right. 00:29:16.884 --> 00:29:20.794 Because there's so many objects and ServiceNow that where ownership of 00:29:20.794 --> 00:29:25.774 the object matters and over ownership of the OB object drifts over time. 00:29:26.074 --> 00:29:27.454 How do you keep up with that? 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.029 Duke: And everybody talks like governance, governance, governance. 00:29:30.029 --> 00:29:30.209 Right. 00:29:30.209 --> 00:29:32.099 But how do you, but how do you Governance? 00:29:32.249 --> 00:29:34.469 CJ: Right, right. 00:29:34.529 --> 00:29:38.639 And manual audits are expensive, if you've already trued up this 00:29:38.639 --> 00:29:40.409 certain class of objects, right? 00:29:40.409 --> 00:29:42.599 And you've got ownership for everything, you don't wanna have 00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:43.829 to do that again in two years. 00:29:45.089 --> 00:29:46.949 Duke: Uh, we're gonna have to record two episodes in a row, aren't we? 00:29:50.069 --> 00:29:51.059 CJ: We might have to. 00:29:52.259 --> 00:29:55.589 Duke: Alright, so the original plan was we'd actually go through a list of 00:29:55.589 --> 00:30:00.389 specific questions, but I think we gotta skip to one other thing we really, really, 00:30:00.389 --> 00:30:02.879 really, really gotta do for this episode. 00:30:02.879 --> 00:30:06.839 So, , wherever you see this, leave a like, leave a comment that you wanna see 00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:11.609 the next question, episode, and we'll do an episode entirely based on questions. 00:30:12.014 --> 00:30:14.804 And we'll all link 'em back to the trifecta for testing for 00:30:14.804 --> 00:30:17.474 Capability Communication and Agency. 00:30:17.534 --> 00:30:18.854 So just leave us a comment. 00:30:19.020 --> 00:30:25.104 but the last thing we wanted to address was virtually testing people, ? Because 00:30:25.104 --> 00:30:28.494 even with what we've covered so far, there are people who are that good at talking 00:30:28.494 --> 00:30:31.974 that they can just get past your defenses and you could like them, or you can 00:30:31.974 --> 00:30:35.214 just imagine that they're demonstrating capability, but you don't know for sure. 00:30:35.450 --> 00:30:39.680 And so you want to actually get these people on an app and testing stuff. 00:30:40.067 --> 00:30:44.100 I was recently asked to suggest some virtual tools where you log 00:30:44.100 --> 00:30:47.967 in together and there's an IDE there and all this kind of stuff. 00:30:47.967 --> 00:30:50.787 And because I suggest those isn't dawned on me like, why don't you 00:30:50.787 --> 00:30:52.647 just use a ServiceNow PDI for that? 00:30:53.382 --> 00:30:55.722 You don't want to test their raw JavaScript. 00:30:55.722 --> 00:31:00.522 You want to test their JavaScript in the context of ServiceNow, right? 00:31:01.542 --> 00:31:06.162 Or even if it's not scripting per se, like maybe you wanna do troubleshooting 00:31:06.162 --> 00:31:11.569 or maybe you want them to talk about SLAs from the SLA form or something. 00:31:12.109 --> 00:31:16.009 But it's better just to have an app that you could just screen share. 00:31:16.272 --> 00:31:18.162 we're gonna talk a little bit about the logistics of that. 00:31:18.162 --> 00:31:22.872 And the first point is, it must, must, must, must, must, must be a PDI, 00:31:23.637 --> 00:31:24.987 CJ: Yes, absolutely. 00:31:25.812 --> 00:31:27.132 That's just baseline, right? 00:31:27.132 --> 00:31:30.342 You want folks to be able to show you in service now how they 00:31:30.342 --> 00:31:31.572 can do things in service now. 00:31:32.352 --> 00:31:36.132 Duke: But you don't want to do it from your own instance in particular 00:31:36.172 --> 00:31:37.822 because they don't work for you. 00:31:39.472 --> 00:31:41.362 Your data's on that instance, right? 00:31:41.362 --> 00:31:42.472 And they're gonna see it. 00:31:43.192 --> 00:31:48.082 So you're gonna have people's contact information or possibly data about 00:31:48.082 --> 00:31:52.462 real incidents that actually happened and just, it can't be a copy. 00:31:52.462 --> 00:31:55.252 Even an old, old, old copy of your instance. 00:31:55.252 --> 00:31:56.902 It must be a PDI. 00:31:57.142 --> 00:31:58.102 There's no way around it. 00:31:58.102 --> 00:31:58.642 Yeah, I know. 00:31:58.642 --> 00:32:00.832 You got your own custom apps, your own way of doing things. 00:32:00.982 --> 00:32:02.857 You're gonna have to find a way to test them without it. 00:32:03.112 --> 00:32:04.527 'cause you don't want 'em seeing. 00:32:05.812 --> 00:32:08.782 You can have admin access or some kind of like heightened access 00:32:08.782 --> 00:32:10.395 to do stuff on the, , platform. 00:32:10.395 --> 00:32:14.835 So just like be a security mindset, put it on a fresh instance. 00:32:14.885 --> 00:32:18.555 , You can test people's capabilities without seeing your stuff specifically. 00:32:18.995 --> 00:32:21.972 CJ: I mean, you can always Stage a PDI you can have your update 00:32:21.972 --> 00:32:25.272 sets and your app application repositories, so on and so forth. 00:32:25.482 --> 00:32:29.639 Stage the thing up and, then let people jump on it , and do the thing. 00:32:29.719 --> 00:32:34.549 the second thing I'd say though is that if you are in this situation 00:32:34.549 --> 00:32:38.269 where you're saying, okay, get into PDI and show me what you got. 00:32:38.704 --> 00:32:42.784 You also have to allow folks to use everything that they would 00:32:43.024 --> 00:32:47.604 use if they had the job, And what I mean is, can they Google? 00:32:47.964 --> 00:32:51.610 Yes, they should absolutely be able to Google, what browser can they use? 00:32:51.610 --> 00:32:51.790 Right? 00:32:51.790 --> 00:32:55.810 Whichever one that they want or whichever one that your company allows, 00:32:56.124 --> 00:32:57.984 are you gonna allow them to use ai? 00:32:58.644 --> 00:33:02.934 Yeah, you should allow them to use AI if your company allows AI to be used. 00:33:03.375 --> 00:33:06.645 these are all things that, that you want to get. 00:33:06.945 --> 00:33:11.885 You want to have the interview, as close as possible to someone's, 00:33:11.885 --> 00:33:15.125 real life work and experience, and also their current comfort 00:33:15.125 --> 00:33:17.342 level, Because are they competent? 00:33:17.402 --> 00:33:19.652 Not, are they comfortable in this setting? 00:33:20.389 --> 00:33:23.542 Duke: it's so artificial to put somebody in a vacuum chamber, 00:33:23.589 --> 00:33:25.542 and say, go develop this thing. 00:33:26.142 --> 00:33:29.442 Really talk to anybody, honestly, in the ServiceNow ecosystem. 00:33:29.442 --> 00:33:33.012 And it's like, man, I got one window up for ServiceNow community. 00:33:33.012 --> 00:33:35.992 I got one window up for the ServiceNow discord I've got. 00:33:36.139 --> 00:33:38.059 Chat GPT up on one computer. 00:33:38.329 --> 00:33:39.349 Like I work in ServiceNow. 00:33:39.349 --> 00:33:40.789 We have our own internal AI tools. 00:33:40.789 --> 00:33:41.659 I got that up. 00:33:42.029 --> 00:33:44.939 and organizations, they are like, use the ai, let the AI help you 00:33:44.939 --> 00:33:48.929 do this, and like AI coworkers and AI copilots and blah, blah blah. 00:33:48.929 --> 00:33:51.509 And then it's like you go in for an interview, it's like, okay, no. 00:33:51.509 --> 00:33:52.769 Get in the vacuum chamber, 00:33:53.574 --> 00:33:53.924 CJ: Right? 00:33:54.149 --> 00:33:56.339 Duke: no outside information from nothing. 00:33:56.339 --> 00:33:58.289 And just do this all from recall. 00:33:58.679 --> 00:34:01.229 CJ: Yes, it is like, no, 00:34:01.874 --> 00:34:07.274 Duke: When everybody knows nobody works like that in the entire world, 00:34:07.649 --> 00:34:08.339 CJ: Absolutely. 00:34:08.339 --> 00:34:11.039 nobody does it, and so don't do an interview that way. 00:34:11.219 --> 00:34:12.119 It's, it is dumb. 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:14.847 And, it won't allow you to get the best, the best candidate. 00:34:15.260 --> 00:34:17.000 Duke: So yeah, just let 'em, let 'em be. 00:34:17.060 --> 00:34:18.770 Let 'em use whatever resources they want. 00:34:18.770 --> 00:34:19.670 You might learn something. 00:34:20.210 --> 00:34:20.930 CJ: Absolutely. 00:34:21.217 --> 00:34:21.367 All right. 00:34:21.367 --> 00:34:21.962 What we got next, duke? 00:34:22.482 --> 00:34:22.602 I. 00:34:23.287 --> 00:34:26.407 Duke: Come up with the build scenarios that you want. 00:34:26.417 --> 00:34:29.147 This is gonna require that you have somebody else with some technical 00:34:29.147 --> 00:34:30.617 expertise if you're not that person. 00:34:30.657 --> 00:34:33.987 but I would suggest some build scenarios, like have them build a 00:34:33.987 --> 00:34:38.607 record producer, have them build maybe a simple catalog item. 00:34:38.907 --> 00:34:45.567 Have them build a simple flow with less common concepts. 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:46.520 CJ: I like it. 00:34:46.714 --> 00:34:47.074 I like it. 00:34:47.074 --> 00:34:48.964 Especially the less common concept part. 00:34:49.384 --> 00:34:52.534 Duke: yeah, like maybe do it on a schedule or do it on an inbound 00:34:52.534 --> 00:34:53.854 email or so, you know what I mean? 00:34:53.854 --> 00:34:54.064 Like, 00:34:54.604 --> 00:34:57.090 CJ: Or how do I have the, flow. 00:34:57.317 --> 00:34:59.952 pause until a certain thing happens and then pick up again. 00:35:00.682 --> 00:35:00.972 Duke: yeah. 00:35:01.255 --> 00:35:05.979 Or have them, demonstrate, Two of the methods that they think 00:35:05.979 --> 00:35:09.539 are cool from glide record that aren't, ad query or query 00:35:12.819 --> 00:35:13.109 CJ: Yeah. 00:35:13.739 --> 00:35:15.479 Duke: and just see what they bring you, right? 00:35:15.654 --> 00:35:19.187 CJ: I have gotten some really interesting answers from, candidates over the years. 00:35:19.267 --> 00:35:22.657 none that I can think of off the top of my head, but some that I definitely 00:35:22.657 --> 00:35:26.287 went and took notes of and went and looked up after the interview. 00:35:26.317 --> 00:35:28.567 Like, oh crap, I didn't know what we could do this. 00:35:28.567 --> 00:35:28.597 I, 00:35:28.807 --> 00:35:31.207 Duke: My favorite eyebrow raising moment with that was somebody 00:35:31.207 --> 00:35:33.217 who did dot underscore next. 00:35:34.117 --> 00:35:37.110 CJ: Ooh, yeah, you know, duke, I just asked you about that one recently. 00:35:37.620 --> 00:35:37.890 Duke: Yeah. 00:35:38.850 --> 00:35:39.780 And dot underscore. 00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:44.190 Next is if you have a table that actually has a field called Next. 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:46.940 It will stop, glide record from performing properly. 00:35:46.940 --> 00:35:52.130 And so you'll, you say if do underscore next factors for tables 00:35:52.130 --> 00:35:53.540 that might have the word next in it, 00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:54.330 CJ: Nice. 00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:54.780 Yeah. 00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:57.240 Duke: or you ever, I have a person who's like, I need to do a glide record, 00:35:57.240 --> 00:35:58.740 but they're not using Glide record. 00:35:58.740 --> 00:36:00.690 They're doing glide query instead. 00:36:01.200 --> 00:36:04.440 Like that's always an, it's like, okay, all right. 00:36:04.860 --> 00:36:06.060 you sit at the teacher's desk. 00:36:06.060 --> 00:36:06.690 I'm gonna sit Yes. 00:36:08.700 --> 00:36:09.090 CJ: Yep. 00:36:09.177 --> 00:36:10.197 Learned something new today. 00:36:11.052 --> 00:36:11.412 Duke: Okay. 00:36:11.802 --> 00:36:16.165 Another one I would go for have things ready that you want them to build on 00:36:16.165 --> 00:36:21.265 the fly or explain on the fly actually, that maybe may, maybe a three tiers. 00:36:21.270 --> 00:36:24.830 So something you want them to build, something you want them to explain. 00:36:25.514 --> 00:36:26.654 But have it built already. 00:36:26.654 --> 00:36:28.154 Like explain this flow to me. 00:36:28.334 --> 00:36:29.924 Explain this script. 00:36:29.924 --> 00:36:32.624 Include, explain this client script. 00:36:34.110 --> 00:36:34.770 CJ: Yes. 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:37.740 Duke: And they don't have to like code, but if they can read it 00:36:37.770 --> 00:36:39.090 right, it is still capability. 00:36:39.210 --> 00:36:39.450 And 00:36:39.450 --> 00:36:40.740 then the last one, go 00:36:40.740 --> 00:36:41.340 CJ: I love that. 00:36:41.340 --> 00:36:44.490 I mean, so think about it, instead of explain, here's a scripting clue. 00:36:44.551 --> 00:36:45.511 write some comments for me. 00:36:45.577 --> 00:36:45.787 Right. 00:36:45.787 --> 00:36:47.533 Tell me, this is a scripting clue. 00:36:47.533 --> 00:36:48.763 There's no code comments. 00:36:48.830 --> 00:36:50.450 gimme the code comments on what this does, 00:36:50.635 --> 00:36:50.965 Duke: Yep. 00:36:51.026 --> 00:36:54.266 and then the last one would be to, to literally build failing cases. 00:36:55.076 --> 00:36:55.436 CJ: Yeah. 00:36:56.346 --> 00:37:00.576 Duke: A good one would be build any flow that's rigged to fail. 00:37:00.636 --> 00:37:01.991 There's a bunch of different ways you could do that. 00:37:02.871 --> 00:37:02.961 CJ: Oh 00:37:03.141 --> 00:37:05.481 Duke: But you're specifically looking for somebody who's just 00:37:05.481 --> 00:37:09.727 gonna like, open up the studio and run it and watch the data happen. 00:37:09.727 --> 00:37:09.997 Right. 00:37:10.351 --> 00:37:13.681 they should be able to go to the debugging tool and just show you like, 00:37:14.044 --> 00:37:15.214 CJ: Yeah, this is where it crashed. 00:37:15.214 --> 00:37:15.784 And this is why. 00:37:16.267 --> 00:37:19.057 Duke: But so many people are so caught up on like, can they JavaScript, 00:37:19.447 --> 00:37:23.197 you know, but that's not the be all end all technical capability. 00:37:23.417 --> 00:37:26.074 CJ: I got an interesting story about this, when I was, applying for a job 00:37:26.074 --> 00:37:29.554 in it, a long time ago, they had to come in and gave me like a test, right? 00:37:29.971 --> 00:37:34.917 had to take this computer and do stuff with it, Got everything right except for 00:37:34.917 --> 00:37:38.577 one thing, which was the network card, couldn't get the network card connected. 00:37:38.877 --> 00:37:41.727 Reason I couldn't get the network card connected Duke is because they have put 00:37:41.727 --> 00:37:44.701 transparent tape over the interface, pens. 00:37:45.571 --> 00:37:46.651 So and put it back in the 00:37:46.651 --> 00:37:47.071 slot. 00:37:48.361 --> 00:37:49.021 Yes. 00:37:51.361 --> 00:37:51.871 Yes. 00:37:51.871 --> 00:37:52.651 So there was, 00:37:52.786 --> 00:37:53.536 Duke: a test 00:37:53.641 --> 00:37:56.231 CJ: they did that as a test and it was, 00:37:56.231 --> 00:38:01.577 they, they had Right, that was a warning that I should have taken. 00:38:01.577 --> 00:38:02.537 I did not take it. 00:38:02.537 --> 00:38:02.627 And, 00:38:04.877 --> 00:38:06.767 and I stayed at that job for three months. 00:38:06.862 --> 00:38:07.082 But, 00:38:08.367 --> 00:38:09.722 Duke: That would mean dude. 00:38:10.562 --> 00:38:13.142 CJ: Dude, like tape over the freaking interface and 00:38:13.142 --> 00:38:14.372 plugged it back into the slide. 00:38:14.372 --> 00:38:15.902 Like, you gotta be kidding me. 00:38:16.172 --> 00:38:20.592 And I walk in there, dude, like I'm hot stuff I, I, I, I in my 00:38:20.592 --> 00:38:23.946 sleep and I could not get this thing connected to the network. 00:38:24.006 --> 00:38:24.306 Man. 00:38:24.306 --> 00:38:25.266 I was so frazzled. 00:38:26.781 --> 00:38:27.411 Duke: Wow. 00:38:27.936 --> 00:38:28.386 CJ: Yeah. 00:38:28.496 --> 00:38:29.456 don't do that though. 00:38:29.771 --> 00:38:30.731 Duke: No, for sure. 00:38:30.731 --> 00:38:31.781 Don't be mean about it. 00:38:31.831 --> 00:38:34.981 You can go a long way, even with simple stuff, especially. 00:38:35.131 --> 00:38:39.164 If you've got somebody who's got the good communication and high agency. 00:38:39.194 --> 00:38:42.284 'cause maybe they're gonna volunteer something like, yeah, okay, I 00:38:42.284 --> 00:38:45.651 found out what's wrong, but maybe you could avoid this entirely by 00:38:45.651 --> 00:38:47.211 writing the flow designer this way. 00:38:48.131 --> 00:38:48.351 CJ: Yes. 00:38:48.381 --> 00:38:50.571 Duke: Or hey, this isn't a great case for flow designer. 00:38:50.571 --> 00:38:51.741 Maybe you'd consider a business rule. 00:38:51.981 --> 00:38:54.921 Like they're coming up with their own things to advise you on, on 00:38:54.921 --> 00:38:56.211 top of what you asked 'em to do. 00:38:56.751 --> 00:38:59.241 And that's all part of finding that prime resource. 00:38:59.871 --> 00:39:00.711 CJ: Absolutely. 00:39:00.711 --> 00:39:02.900 When they look at your thing and be like, why'd you do it this way? 00:39:05.160 --> 00:39:05.860 , That's the person. 00:39:06.892 --> 00:39:10.325 Duke: last but certainly not least on how to test people 00:39:10.325 --> 00:39:12.935 on A PDI is that all of these. 00:39:13.020 --> 00:39:15.870 build, explain, fail test cases. 00:39:16.057 --> 00:39:18.847 please just put them in update sets when you build them, and then 00:39:18.847 --> 00:39:22.837 export those update sets, or X mls if it's raw data that you need. 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:27.245 because , you might want to interview like three, four people in a day and 00:39:27.245 --> 00:39:30.362 you want to just be able to blow away the instance and then just , whoop, 00:39:30.422 --> 00:39:32.192 pop those things right back on. 00:39:32.573 --> 00:39:36.813 And so put them in update sets so that you only have to chew your food once. 00:39:38.833 --> 00:39:39.438 CJ: I like that. 00:39:39.828 --> 00:39:40.218 Yeah. 00:39:40.218 --> 00:39:41.628 You only wanna chew the food once, 00:39:41.827 --> 00:39:42.007 Duke: Yeah. 00:39:42.127 --> 00:39:43.687 We aren't Aries up in here, man. 00:39:43.687 --> 00:39:43.777 You're, 00:39:46.432 --> 00:39:49.845 CJ: Oh man, that, that is like a visceral, image in my head right now. 00:39:49.895 --> 00:39:51.905 Duke: yeah, and it works. 00:39:53.640 --> 00:39:54.145 What time are we at? 00:39:54.552 --> 00:39:54.942 CJ: Oh man. 00:39:54.942 --> 00:39:56.352 Dude, we've been going for a minute. 00:39:56.425 --> 00:39:59.815 think we're probably at at a point where we should stop going for a minute. 00:40:01.645 --> 00:40:04.330 Duke: Okay, so we've been on this for 48 minutes. 00:40:04.540 --> 00:40:06.280 Hopefully you found something valuable in there. 00:40:06.310 --> 00:40:09.880 And again, let's leave us a comment if you want us to do a whole dedicated episode 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.010 on specific questions we would ask in various scenarios from interviewing. 00:40:15.060 --> 00:40:19.190 excellent devs, architects, implementers of various processes. 00:40:19.310 --> 00:40:20.090 but we need your help. 00:40:20.120 --> 00:40:21.860 We need your interactions on the posts. 00:40:22.190 --> 00:40:22.670 Let us know. 00:40:22.913 --> 00:40:25.067 CJ: definitely let us know and, we'll make that happen. 00:40:25.247 --> 00:40:27.007 Duke, I got a great idea for this. 00:40:27.007 --> 00:40:29.467 I'll tell you after we press end on the recording 00:40:33.547 --> 00:40:33.997 still.