WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:07.370 So I went to Karim Awad and I told him, look, if we buy wind farms in France for 00:00:07.370 --> 00:00:11.460 200 million, 100 million in equity and 100 million in debt, will you give me 5 million? 00:00:11.460 --> 00:00:14.280 He said, OK, of course, if you raise 100 million, I'll give you 5 million. 00:00:14.280 --> 00:00:16.640 Done. Went to Abu Dhabi and told him, look, you know. 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:18.160 Of course, he never thought you'd do it, huh? 00:00:19.040 --> 00:00:23.670 The whole thing of also doing something good while you're investing, not just making money. 00:00:24.040 --> 00:00:30.220 It's a thesis that I liked from day one. And if you see, we've done it after that education. Yes. 00:00:30.890 --> 00:00:35.110 Hi, and welcome to What I Did Next from A&T Media. I'm Malak Fouad, your host. 00:00:35.260 --> 00:00:39.390 Today, I'm bringing you a special episode with our sponsor, EFG Holding. 00:00:39.390 --> 00:00:44.330 I recently interviewed Karim Moussa, Co-CEO of EFG Hermes Buy-Side, 00:00:44.730 --> 00:00:49.620 Head of private equity and Asset Management, as well as CEO of Vortex Energy. 00:00:49.620 --> 00:00:53.020 Even though Karim and I have many friends in common, we had never met. 00:00:53.410 --> 00:00:55.950 Yet, our conversation was easy and chatty. 00:00:56.490 --> 00:01:01.220 We talked about both his professional and personal life, and we started with his school days. 00:01:01.720 --> 00:01:04.620 I was a naughty boy back in the days. I wasn't a good student. 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:07.890 I was a troublemaker in day one. 00:01:08.070 --> 00:01:14.200 My colleagues or old friends would remind me of that. But, 00:01:17.420 --> 00:01:21.620 my beginning of my career started with a tragedy with the loss of my dad. 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:26.940 I used to live with my dad. My mom and dad were divorced for a long period before. 00:01:27.590 --> 00:01:32.610 And because I was a misbehaving teenager, I was living with my dad mostly. 00:01:33.190 --> 00:01:37.900 And right before the last year of school, he passed away in the summer. 00:01:39.020 --> 00:01:42.710 And it was, for me, a big turning point. 00:01:44.100 --> 00:01:50.340 I grew up overnight. I had to take responsibility for myself immediately. 00:01:51.110 --> 00:01:53.610 And, you know, from being, you know, 00:01:55.220 --> 00:01:59.380 bottom top percent in class. I finished, I had to do High school, 00:01:59.380 --> 00:02:03.140 my German, and I was not that good to do Abitur. So I did High school, 00:02:03.140 --> 00:02:05.620 and I finished with top 10% in class. 00:02:06.340 --> 00:02:12.170 And I ended up, you know, packing my stuff and moving to Germany to study engineering 00:02:12.170 --> 00:02:12.920 and business in Germany. 00:02:13.340 --> 00:02:19.250 You know, Karim, it's really interesting that you took the experience of losing 00:02:19.250 --> 00:02:24.640 your father, it switched into a positive long term for you. A lot of kids would 00:02:24.640 --> 00:02:27.520 have gone off the rails even more. They 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.670 expected me to do so at that time as well. I had no other choice. 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:38.310 And I think it set the tone for a lot of what came after. It wasn't that easy 00:02:38.310 --> 00:02:40.500 as well immediately after because I, 00:02:41.540 --> 00:02:50.340 the business of my dad went belly up and, you know, there wasn't a lot of cash for me to study. 00:02:50.340 --> 00:02:54.580 So my mom used to send me some small amounts and I had to, you know, 00:02:54.900 --> 00:02:59.680 I studied engineering and business, which is in the German engineering schools, 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:03.280 Technische Universität Berlin, is a tough degree to attempt. 00:03:04.660 --> 00:03:09.430 And I was working on the side. And I did pizza man, I worked in construction 00:03:09.430 --> 00:03:12.340 site, I did movers, I did Santa Claus. 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:17.080 What do those side hustles teach you? Because you meet people that you wouldn't 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:23.340 meet in your life today, but people I find who grow up in this way with 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:29.440 having to hustle and having to really do things on their own without help, 00:03:29.970 --> 00:03:31.720 they're so much more resilient. 00:03:31.720 --> 00:03:36.720 They have a resourcefulness that other people don't. Do you feel that about yourself? 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:42.250 Well, it teaches you to survive in a very early days when you're very young. 00:03:42.970 --> 00:03:47.350 And Berlin in the 90s, late 90s was also a rough place. It's not like, 00:03:47.350 --> 00:03:50.420 you know, you're studying in California on the beach. It's cold. 00:03:52.160 --> 00:03:57.060 It was still, you know, coming out of sort of the East-West transition. 00:03:57.060 --> 00:04:03.030 And it wasn't an easy place. And studying engineering, German mechanical engineering 00:04:03.030 --> 00:04:08.200 and business in the same time while you were working, all kinds of jobs was tough. 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:13.480 But I, you know, the first couple of years, I've done all these, 00:04:13.480 --> 00:04:16.550 you know, these fancy jobs 00:04:16.550 --> 00:04:20.560 and then I ended up after finishing the four diploma, which is the so-called 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.820 Semi-Bachelor in Germany, I ended up doing office work. 00:04:23.820 --> 00:04:28.740 So I worked part time in a fund, Berlin Capital Fund, which was a Tech, BioTech, 00:04:29.310 --> 00:04:34.010 fund. And I started sort of understanding a bit, you know, the finance world. 00:04:34.780 --> 00:04:39.590 But I was at that time sending faxes and typing in Excel spreadsheets but I 00:04:39.590 --> 00:04:43.030 was earning good money and since then I actually called my mom, 00:04:43.660 --> 00:04:47.650 with the age of 22 and told her I'm fine, I don't need any more cash and since 00:04:47.650 --> 00:04:50.000 then I've been financially completely independent. 00:04:50.250 --> 00:04:55.690 That's such an inspiring story and I think when.. I hope young people listen to 00:04:55.690 --> 00:05:01.070 this and I think about people like my own children who are beginning their journeys like you were 00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:05.970 and these are important stories and, you know, not everything gets handed to 00:05:05.970 --> 00:05:08.550 you and you have to figure things out and you have to, 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:10.870 you know, find your own, 00:05:12.050 --> 00:05:15.060 you know, well of resources inside to get you through it. 00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:18.110 You know, I hope these stories resonate. 00:05:18.110 --> 00:05:21.840 I'm actually reading a book right now, 'Green Lights' from Matthew McConaughey, 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.110 which talks a lot about this, you know, how, you know, life, 00:05:26.730 --> 00:05:32.540 you know, throws you into, you know, tough moments, worst times, humiliation, 00:05:34.140 --> 00:05:37.250 loss of friends and family 00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:40.560 and he calls it red lights. 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.650 And every red light at the end turns at one point of time to a green light. 00:05:46.390 --> 00:05:50.930 Red and yellow lights and and it's really what you do out of it and you know if, 00:05:52.010 --> 00:05:56.460 i i figured that out very early in my life and and it was.. I mean, I had many 00:05:56.460 --> 00:06:01.150 red lights in my career, you know, and the discussions maybe that we will continue 00:06:01.150 --> 00:06:05.930 with that came and but, you know, changing, facing the problem, 00:06:06.580 --> 00:06:09.890 pivoting and persisting into it, 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:13.040 and focusing on it, it will always turn green. 00:06:13.340 --> 00:06:16.870 Do you look back on that time as being the hardest period? 00:06:17.410 --> 00:06:22.090 Because I went through a very challenging time when I was in my mid-30s, I got very sick. 00:06:22.760 --> 00:06:26.990 And now when I'm confronted with anything that makes me nervous or I'm a bit 00:06:26.990 --> 00:06:32.290 anxious about, I remind myself that I won't ever go through the same difficulty 00:06:32.290 --> 00:06:34.610 as I did then, so it just becomes so much easier. 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:37.230 Do you feel like that about that time in your life? 00:06:37.230 --> 00:06:40.260 I mean, I don't remind myself, but I think it's plugged into you. 00:06:40.510 --> 00:06:44.140 It's like in your coding, you know, you're already programmed. 00:06:44.780 --> 00:06:46.460 Yeah, I think I understand that. 00:06:46.460 --> 00:06:48.730 How hard is the next one compared to the previous one? 00:06:49.020 --> 00:06:54.380 Yeah. Let's start with Deutsche Bank. That was your first major job. 00:06:55.660 --> 00:06:58.360 Tell me a little bit about that. That was also in Berlin. 00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:02.280 No, I joined in Frankfurt. Oh, you were in Frankfurt? 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:11.490 Yeah, I joined in September 2001, a very small team that does mid-cap M&A, 00:07:11.850 --> 00:07:15.020 which I learned a lot in that team. 00:07:15.630 --> 00:07:18.330 Doing mid-cap German M&A, small 00:07:18.330 --> 00:07:22.870 transactions, small team, you get a lot of exposure to the deal-making. 00:07:24.140 --> 00:07:27.210 I was, you know, interacting with, you know, with all these, 00:07:27.210 --> 00:07:29.980 you know, Mittelstand, German entrepreneurs, succession issues, 00:07:29.980 --> 00:07:34.350 It was also with big German corporates, AIS, Airbus, BMW. 00:07:34.350 --> 00:07:37.730 And you're getting a lot of exposure. And this team was doing a lot of transactions, 00:07:37.730 --> 00:07:40.270 sell-side, buy-side, 12, 13 transactions a year. 00:07:40.640 --> 00:07:44.480 So I've learned a lot. But I also didn't have an easy start. 00:07:45.740 --> 00:07:49.800 It's a very German environment that made cap market. 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:53.600 And it was right after 9-11, right, when you started? 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:58.120 I was just about to say, I joined the team September 1, nine days after. 00:07:58.700 --> 00:08:01.700 And I was the only foreigner, not just Arab, the only foreigner I've ever had, 00:08:02.550 --> 00:08:07.230 nine days after, an Egyptian pilot that studied in, 00:08:08.280 --> 00:08:11.690 in Technical University of Hamburg, which is an hour away from Technical University 00:08:11.690 --> 00:08:18.490 of Berlin, in Germany, was one of the pilots that flew the plane in one of the towers. 00:08:19.700 --> 00:08:24.780 I honestly had some colleagues looking, you know, afraid at me. 00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:29.070 There were all these very German aristocratic teams. 00:08:29.290 --> 00:08:33.000 But anyway, I worked hard and I succeeded. 00:08:33.300 --> 00:08:38.690 I, you know, proven myself. I got promoted over the years to an associate and, 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:44.210 and every time, I had these HR, I was on a fast track every time, I 00:08:44.210 --> 00:08:48.640 had this HR reviews, I told them whenever you do something in the Middle East, let me know. And 00:08:49.390 --> 00:08:52.070 they called me one day and told me look they are going to open up in the Middle 00:08:52.070 --> 00:08:56.880 East and there's this guy called Ken Borda who runs Australia and Asia who's going to move to the Middle Eat and he needs 00:08:59.560 --> 00:09:00.360 a business manager. 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:05.380 And Karim, why were you interested in anything to do with the Middle East? 00:09:05.670 --> 00:09:08.030 Because you're obviously the language, the culture? 00:09:08.030 --> 00:09:14.950 And by that time, I spent 10 years in Germany and I missed eating foul and tamaya 00:09:14.950 --> 00:09:18.530 and going back and hearing the call of prayer and being in the Arab world. 00:09:18.650 --> 00:09:23.740 I had never been to Dubai. I did the video conference with Ken Borda and I joined him. 00:09:24.270 --> 00:09:28.420 But this was a major redlight that I discovered the year after. 00:09:29.180 --> 00:09:34.890 That job, I was a young deal-maker and that job business manager was more or 00:09:34.890 --> 00:09:37.040 less an extended secretary. 00:09:37.660 --> 00:09:40.970 I was taking minutes and booking private jets and, you know, 00:09:40.970 --> 00:09:42.170 talking to the regulator to 00:09:42.170 --> 00:09:46.060 open offices and, you know, negotiating office rents and stuff like that. 00:09:46.660 --> 00:09:48.250 And it was tough. I didn't like it at all. 00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:52.170 And why did you do that? I mean, that was not a promotion. 00:09:52.170 --> 00:09:56.410 I don't know. I was young and I heard that I was an offer in Dubai and, 00:09:56.410 --> 00:09:59.770 you know, joined the CEO to open up Deutsche Bank. 00:09:59.770 --> 00:10:04.860 And, you know, it was exciting. But the moment I had to literally carry his 00:10:04.860 --> 00:10:09.110 bag, which he gave me a few times to do, I said, this is not going to work. 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:12.190 And I didn't know what to do. At that time, there was no investment banking. 00:10:12.190 --> 00:10:15.000 So I'm private bank because of Deutsche Bank. 2005 in Dubai, 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:17.370 there was not even DIFC, we're in Emirates Towers. 00:10:18.150 --> 00:10:22.510 And he realized I'm the wrong guy in the job and he just told me, 00:10:22.510 --> 00:10:25.290 look, I mean, there's an investment banker coming who's going to open, 00:10:25.290 --> 00:10:28.910 you know, from Hong Kong, who's going to open an investment bank and give it a try. 00:10:28.910 --> 00:10:32.830 And I, you know, I met him and the guy told me, look, I don't want to hear about 00:10:32.830 --> 00:10:33.710 what you did in Frankfurt. 00:10:33.880 --> 00:10:37.520 You know, I put you on probation. I had six years. I was in six years in Deutsche 00:10:37.520 --> 00:10:40.830 Bank and in the fast time, put you on probation for six months and, 00:10:41.380 --> 00:10:43.610 you know, prove again if you can do it or not. Otherwise, you're out. 00:10:43.870 --> 00:10:48.240 So I, you know, after six years in my career, I went on probation period. 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:53.520 And then we did some interesting data. So, Sokhna Port to Dubai Port, 00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:55.360 we did Dubai Port IPO, we did EFC. 00:10:56.860 --> 00:11:00.960 You're obviously a risk-taker because you could have stayed in the cushy job. 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:04.760 You were on a fast track, but you went out and you said, no, 00:11:04.760 --> 00:11:08.370 I want to try something different. Even though the initial step wasn't to your 00:11:08.370 --> 00:11:14.200 liking, it led to something else. So, there is a risk-taker there. 00:11:15.260 --> 00:11:17.230 You have to, otherwise it becomes very boring. 00:11:17.630 --> 00:11:18.420 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:21.300 Your entire life becomes very boring. 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:22.030 That's true. 00:11:22.030 --> 00:11:26.490 I think at the moment it becomes boring, you have to start something else. 00:11:26.490 --> 00:11:28.140 Otherwise, you know, otherwise you will degrade. 00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:35.380 2005 to 2007, 2008, three years, we did a lot of these transactions, good transactions. 00:11:36.610 --> 00:11:40.630 And then that's the time where also that business became boring. 00:11:40.630 --> 00:11:44.250 I was, you know, the broker, the investment banker between, you know, 00:11:44.250 --> 00:11:47.700 an entrepreneur selling, making a lot of money or an investor buying, 00:11:47.700 --> 00:11:50.540 you know, and restructuring or growing the business. 00:11:50.540 --> 00:11:55.380 And I was always the middleman. And, you know, there's, you know, 00:11:55.540 --> 00:11:58.640 for some people with some time that business is not fulfilling, 00:11:58.640 --> 00:12:01.370 I wanted to be either the entrepreneur or the investor, you know. 00:12:01.990 --> 00:12:06.620 And I decided to move to the buy-side, the private equity side. 00:12:06.750 --> 00:12:11.010 And I like the idea of EFG because Hassan and Yasser at that time, 00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:16.900 you know, they hired a team from Goldman to ramp up their private equity. 00:12:16.900 --> 00:12:20.470 You know, EFG was known as a big sell-side brokerage and investment bank, 00:12:20.470 --> 00:12:25.400 but, you know, private equity was still young and, you know, 00:12:25.400 --> 00:12:27.700 there was something to be done. So I joined them. 00:12:27.700 --> 00:12:28.600 2009 by now? 00:12:29.300 --> 00:12:33.130 That's, yeah, right before Lehman, 2008. I negotiated before Lehman and then 00:12:33.130 --> 00:12:35.560 I joined right after the crisis. 00:12:35.560 --> 00:12:38.720 And you had Ashraf Zaki in investment banking in Cairo at that time? 00:12:38.920 --> 00:12:41.520 Yes, yes, but he was leaving. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:12:44.140 --> 00:12:48.460 Hazam Shawqi, the guy who came from Goldman, was effectively my boss at that time. 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:56.890 And then I, yeah, and then we started. Then I started my career within private equity at EFG. 00:12:58.150 --> 00:13:03.270 And let's discuss that a little bit in more detail. You spent many, 00:13:03.270 --> 00:13:06.450 you are still very much involved in private equity. You're heading it. 00:13:07.110 --> 00:13:13.490 How did those early years evolve to what you're doing now for that platform? 00:13:14.680 --> 00:13:20.590 When I joined, there was a fund, the so-called Old Horas Fund. 00:13:20.770 --> 00:13:25.400 My first investment, you know, having sold Sokhna port to Dubai Ports, 00:13:25.400 --> 00:13:29.020 there was a project with a feedlot with lots of cows and some slaughterhouses 00:13:29.020 --> 00:13:30.350 that always interested me. 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.500 And I went back to Captain Osama Sharif and told him, you know, 00:13:34.410 --> 00:13:38.140 tell me more about this and connect me to your partner, Danny Fakhri, 00:13:39.310 --> 00:13:40.230 who was running that project. 00:13:40.230 --> 00:13:44.430 Like they were importing livestock and, you know, there's a shortage in Egypt 00:13:44.430 --> 00:13:48.090 with, you know, halal, fresh meat. 00:13:48.280 --> 00:13:52.270 You know, you can import frozen, but your baladi beef is, you cannot, 00:13:52.270 --> 00:13:55.760 you don't have arable land and enough water to feed everyone with fresh meat. 00:13:55.760 --> 00:14:00.630 So the concept of importing livestock, putting them in a feedlot for a few months 00:14:00.630 --> 00:14:04.070 and then, you know, slaughtering them on the ground, halal, and becomes like a, 00:14:04.070 --> 00:14:06.790 you know, a premium baladi beef, cheaper than the baladi. 00:14:07.330 --> 00:14:11.470 Was a great opportunity. We invested in our business and we created the brand, 00:14:12.150 --> 00:14:16.630 Sokhna Beef and we were selling actually Sokhna Beef in Carrefour and first year 00:14:16.630 --> 00:14:18.760 we did $100 million of revenue, 00:14:19.890 --> 00:14:20.960 and then the revolution came. 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:27.730 Yep and that was a big..for you and for your work, it was a big pause 00:14:27.910 --> 00:14:33.330 Completely there was a you know a series of change and ministries and 00:14:33.330 --> 00:14:36.060 and you know Egypt was not open for business 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:41.690 actually for some time after that I was living most since 94 I left 95 I left 00:14:41.690 --> 00:14:45.660 Egypt so I was at that time going back to Egypt but you know you know I was, 00:14:46.380 --> 00:14:50.940 I paused and stayed in Dubai and, you know, I said, okay, let's just do deals, 00:14:51.260 --> 00:14:52.890 you know, outside Egypt. 00:14:52.890 --> 00:14:57.970 We were pretty much a big Egyptian-focused fund and set up. 00:14:58.250 --> 00:15:02.570 You shifted the focus, instead of looking towards Egypt and inward, 00:15:03.050 --> 00:15:06.710 you persuaded the bank that it was better to look outward. 00:15:07.540 --> 00:15:13.200 We had still life ammunition, capital from the fund, and we could do regional 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:15.220 deals. So the mandate was there. 00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:20.030 Although most of our these were in Egypt because naturally we knew the country 00:15:20.030 --> 00:15:22.400 best and we were doing the best deals there. 00:15:22.560 --> 00:15:26.640 In parallel, we did this first infrastructure fund Inframed under the Union for 00:15:26.640 --> 00:15:28.060 the Mediterranean under, 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:34.380 Mohamed Rashid's leadership at that time and we did there the first wind project, 00:15:35.420 --> 00:15:39.030 that's how we started understanding renewables, 114 MegaWatt, 00:15:40.460 --> 00:15:41.960 wind development in Jordan, 00:15:42.660 --> 00:15:47.750 which was one of the first IPPs on the defeat and tariff in the Levant. 00:15:47.890 --> 00:15:54.140 So this was a line that was already, you know, tailored to do things outside Egypt. Then... 00:15:55.520 --> 00:15:58.950 Back to setting a goal, I was telling the team, let's just look for undervalued 00:15:58.950 --> 00:16:02.900 listed companies and taking them private. So there was a theme that we focused on. 00:16:04.370 --> 00:16:10.280 We identified Damas as a very interesting company to do so with. 00:16:10.280 --> 00:16:17.930 And we ended up taking Damas private with Manai Group for a $445 million transaction. 00:16:17.930 --> 00:16:20.370 We put ourselves $85 million from our fund. 00:16:20.510 --> 00:16:27.850 And a few years later, we sold out 2X and made like, over 30% IRR or a little 00:16:27.850 --> 00:16:29.730 bit less than 2x and over 30% IRR. 00:16:30.770 --> 00:16:33.050 So that was a good deal. That was the first sort of deal. And then, 00:16:33.050 --> 00:16:38.760 but at that time, we did not have any more money. The funds were done and we 00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:42.000 had to start a new strategy. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:47.540 At this point, you had only one deal in the renewable energy sector. 00:16:47.730 --> 00:16:51.140 And then it eventually evolved into Vortex down the line. Absolutely. 00:16:51.350 --> 00:17:00.500 Q Invest, the Qataris were attempting to invest in EFG or buy, you know, EFG in 2012. 00:17:01.170 --> 00:17:05.140 And we started working with them back by the Qataris, there was a lot of capital 00:17:05.140 --> 00:17:08.310 and they, you know, they saw what we've done in the renewable space. 00:17:08.310 --> 00:17:10.420 And we've been asked to look at Turkey 00:17:12.120 --> 00:17:15.400 and try to find opportunities in the wind, specifically, like we've done in 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.960 Jordan and Turkey. So with their introduction, we went a lot to Turkey. 00:17:20.220 --> 00:17:23.620 I never really managed to transact there. 00:17:23.870 --> 00:17:26.520 The Turks always think that the Arabs are going to rip them off. 00:17:26.520 --> 00:17:28.620 And the Arabs always think that the Turks are going to rip them off. 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:31.260 So there's never a common ground on the... 00:17:31.620 --> 00:17:35.500 It dates back to the Ottomans. This is old history. 00:17:36.740 --> 00:17:43.660 So we ended up, and then the deal fell apart with Qatar investing in EFG. 00:17:43.660 --> 00:17:46.470 So I ended up again from square zero. 00:17:47.120 --> 00:17:50.160 But then I told the team, you know what, the wind is not Turkish and it's not, 00:17:50.860 --> 00:17:54.510 Egyptian or Arabic or German. And the turbine, whether you put it in the Middle 00:17:54.510 --> 00:17:56.930 East or you put it in Germany or France, it's the same turbine. 00:17:57.360 --> 00:17:59.620 Let's just go to Europe and let's pitch. 00:18:00.540 --> 00:18:03.520 We all came from Europe, most of the team as well. Bakker came from the UK. 00:18:03.840 --> 00:18:08.710 I worked in Germany. So let's just pitch them opportunities with feed-in tariff, 00:18:08.710 --> 00:18:12.720 with these government guarantees in Europe, to sovereign funds in the Middle East. 00:18:12.940 --> 00:18:16.270 The whole thing of also doing something good while you're investing, 00:18:16.270 --> 00:18:21.100 not just making money, is a thesis that I liked from day one. 00:18:21.270 --> 00:18:24.660 And if you see, we've done after that education and healthcare. 00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:26.470 And these are the only things that we do. 00:18:26.770 --> 00:18:30.830 And being a generalist, you know, buying cement and food and then, 00:18:30.830 --> 00:18:34.120 you know, hospitality and tech and everything in the same time, 00:18:34.120 --> 00:18:38.130 it doesn't work unless you're a KKR or a Blackstone. But we're a small team. 00:18:38.130 --> 00:18:41.460 You either become very good on something and then extract some value in it. 00:18:42.100 --> 00:18:47.670 I like that though, Karim. I like that there is like you're looking for things consciously. 00:18:49.610 --> 00:18:50.590 There's a method to it. 00:18:51.110 --> 00:18:54.990 So that was in 2014, which is the beginning of Vortex Energy. 00:18:56.060 --> 00:19:00.720 And also thanks to EFG Holding and thanks to Karim Awad specifically, 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:07.320 which is a company that really supports this innovation, which is very important. 00:19:08.130 --> 00:19:13.920 So I went to Karim and I told him, look, if we buy wind farms in France, 00:19:15.070 --> 00:19:18.430 for 200 million, 100 million in equity and 100 million in debt, 00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:22.970 Will you give me 5 million So I can put 5% of the equity? He said you're going 00:19:22.970 --> 00:19:26.860 to buy wind farms in France With what money? Like we'll raise it from Abu Dhabi 00:19:26.870 --> 00:19:29.370 He said, okay, of course. If you raise 100 million, I'll give you 5 million, of 00:19:29.370 --> 00:19:30.820 course, he never thought you'd do it, huh? 00:19:30.820 --> 00:19:36.860 Went to Abu Dhabi, he told him, look, would you buy, Would you invest in, 00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:42.910 in operating wind farms and we put 5 million of our own money, you put 95 million 00:19:42.910 --> 00:19:47.540 we put we get debt for the remainder and you know they were laughing at us. Have 00:19:47.540 --> 00:19:50.180 you ever done anything in renewable energy? Of course not but, 00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:53.810 we're not going to do a blind pool. This is a specific deal. 00:19:55.960 --> 00:20:01.330 And long story short, we've convinced them. We went to the seller which was ETP 00:20:01.330 --> 00:20:04.760 the Portuguese utility Mr. 00:20:04.760 --> 00:20:08.420 Jaumann Zonetto, the CEO there, was laughing at us. I remember that meeting. 00:20:08.420 --> 00:20:11.610 He told us, you're a bunch of cowboys, but I like you. Are you guys going to 00:20:11.610 --> 00:20:14.480 deliver us? I guess we just come to Abu Dhabi once and we will deliver. 00:20:14.910 --> 00:20:18.350 But it's interesting, Karim, because you must have, at that time, 00:20:18.350 --> 00:20:22.970 it must have been really the seed of the idea for Abu Dhabi and the UAE to begin 00:20:22.970 --> 00:20:24.880 looking at renewables as a strategy. 00:20:25.300 --> 00:20:27.920 It must have been at the very beginning of the thing. Yeah, we were, 00:20:28.840 --> 00:20:32.990 as a manager, we were one of the first to get their allocation into renewables. 00:20:32.990 --> 00:20:36.880 And in 2014, remember, Malak, this is before the Paris Agreement. 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:39.100 Nobody was talking about net zero at that time. 00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:41.650 Climate change wasn't on the agenda. 00:20:42.050 --> 00:20:48.540 I remember going to Naguib Sawiris, he asked me actually, why, why invest in renewables? 00:20:48.540 --> 00:20:49.900 He didn't understand the thesis of it. 00:20:50.380 --> 00:20:52.580 People were just asking us why, why are you doing this? 00:20:53.340 --> 00:20:56.960 Such a niche, you know. But we ended up buying, 00:21:00.120 --> 00:21:07.350 334 MegaWatts of 34 operating wind assets in France. We created Vortex One for 200 million. 00:21:08.020 --> 00:21:12.390 EFG put the 5 million, 95 came from Abu Dhabi, and 100 million from Deutsche Bank. 00:21:13.260 --> 00:21:16.870 And immediately after, we paid a 10% cash yield on that investment. 00:21:16.870 --> 00:21:19.020 So it was very, very good. 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:24.800 And they've asked us for more. And this is how it started. And we were just 00:21:25.090 --> 00:21:29.120 doing the vortexes after that. The second one was a much bigger portfolio. 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:36.590 By that time, you know, the Paris Agreement came. In 2016, we invested in Portugal 00:21:36.590 --> 00:21:38.540 before Portugal was even investment grade. 00:21:39.280 --> 00:21:43.180 And why did the business move to Spain eventually? Why did you leave France 00:21:43.180 --> 00:21:44.280 and move everything to Spain? 00:21:44.560 --> 00:21:51.560 Spain is by far the most advanced country in the energy transition and renewable energy. 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:54.840 By far, you know, globally, you know, in Europe and on a global stage. 00:21:55.520 --> 00:21:56.810 And then now we're... Why is that, Karim? 00:21:56.810 --> 00:21:58.710 I'm just curious. Why did Spain become more than... 00:21:58.710 --> 00:22:02.420 They started very early on. A lot of their engineers are from Spain. 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:07.650 They went through retroactive changes and adopted their system. 00:22:08.050 --> 00:22:11.620 They invested in their grade. They invested in regulations. They have a very 00:22:11.620 --> 00:22:16.440 big country with lots of empty land and lots of good resources in wind and so on. 00:22:20.060 --> 00:22:25.540 So it's always, you know, in terms of standards, it's miles ahead of everything 00:22:25.540 --> 00:22:27.840 else. But in 2016, it wasn't the case. 00:22:28.300 --> 00:22:33.210 We liked it because we had a trusted partner. It was the same utility. They had a portfolio. 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:40.060 We ended up, you know, buying 664 MegaWatts of a wind portfolio in Portugal, 00:22:40.060 --> 00:22:41.290 Spain, Belgium, and France. 00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:46.180 And this deal was in the neighborhood of 550 million. And the equity was like 200 something million. 00:22:46.670 --> 00:22:51.370 We've raised that same model, 5% comes from EFG and 95% from investors. 00:22:52.250 --> 00:22:57.080 And then Vortex 3, the first time we go into the solar space, 00:22:57.080 --> 00:23:00.980 we acquired a portfolio of solar assets in the UK. 00:23:01.650 --> 00:23:05.820 Also was troubled Terraform Power and SunEdison was from bankruptcy. 00:23:05.820 --> 00:23:10.330 And so it was always something to unlock there. 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:19.430 And here in a period of a few years we invested over 1.6 billion in equity and debt. 00:23:19.430 --> 00:23:23.300 And does Vortex have a footprint in Egypt? Because I know that the solar business 00:23:23.300 --> 00:23:29.590 is becoming a big thing in Egypt or are you an outside, out of the country business? 00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:35.510 We're just primarily looking at these European markets and the reason was the Arab spring. 00:23:35.730 --> 00:23:39.900 I mean we started investing outside because the markets at that time that was 00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:44.890 attractive for renewable energy was Jordan and Egypt. 00:23:46.070 --> 00:23:48.520 You know, they had feed-in tariffs. It was interesting. But, 00:23:48.810 --> 00:23:53.730 you know, the geopolitical dynamics and currency exposure to an extent. 00:23:53.870 --> 00:23:58.260 And again, remind you the history of where we came from with our legacy. 00:23:58.260 --> 00:24:01.770 So we, I was just like, we said, okay, and it worked. 00:24:01.770 --> 00:24:07.220 Is today that thinking shifting or changing? Is Egypt on your radar now? 00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:10.800 Yeah. Because everything you described about Spain fits Egypt. 00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:16.590 Huge swathes of land in the middle that have nothing on them. You put solar panels. 00:24:16.990 --> 00:24:23.640 Now with Egypt liberalizing the electricity market and the subsidies going away 00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:28.130 and all of that becomes a much more interesting environment to invest. 00:24:28.130 --> 00:24:31.250 I want to ask you, because it's something we talked about in our last call. 00:24:31.830 --> 00:24:37.840 You mentioned about how you like the concept of decentralization when it comes 00:24:37.840 --> 00:24:40.280 to the businesses you're running. 00:24:40.690 --> 00:24:45.200 Why do you like it? What is it about the decentralized model that appeals to you? 00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:49.790 I think the era of having a country head and, you know, 00:24:50.490 --> 00:24:56.740 and the product head and the coverage head and layers of, you know, 00:24:56.740 --> 00:25:01.230 organization and politics, at least in our buy-side business, doesn't work. 00:25:01.230 --> 00:25:04.120 And, you know, when you're an investor, you're an investor. And, 00:25:04.120 --> 00:25:09.240 you know, a portfolio manager takes care of his portfolio and invests, 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:14.050 you know, and he wants just to, you know, invest and divest and create returns for the investors. 00:25:14.450 --> 00:25:19.250 So when I took over, I we said, okay, let's just decentralize, 00:25:19.250 --> 00:25:21.340 make it a multi boutique sort of, 00:25:22.220 --> 00:25:26.310 platform, you can add products. At the moment, we have three and we'll focus 00:25:26.310 --> 00:25:28.120 on these three in the private equity space. 00:25:28.120 --> 00:25:34.190 And then we have FIM doing our regional asset management run by one CIO and 00:25:34.190 --> 00:25:40.620 his PMs and Nabil Moussa in Egypt running Egypt asset management with his PMs. 00:25:41.610 --> 00:25:47.330 And then each of effectively the product heads for our verticals and private equity. 00:25:47.330 --> 00:25:51.540 Is that an EFG policy or is that something that you like to do within your spheres? 00:25:53.290 --> 00:25:56.580 It's a policy I, you know, developed with Karim Awad. 00:25:57.380 --> 00:25:59.830 I see. So it's a bank-wide 00:26:01.930 --> 00:26:02.290 structure. 00:26:02.290 --> 00:26:05.040 Yeah, when I took over, we were sitting with, 00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.830 With the holding, with Karim, you know, being also, you know, 00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:16.050 a supervisor of all of this and also a capital provider for a lot of our businesses. 00:26:18.950 --> 00:26:23.950 We came up with that solution-oriented buy-side platform. 00:26:24.060 --> 00:26:27.310 Because every business is completely different. Investing in wind farms in France 00:26:27.310 --> 00:26:32.000 and Spain has nothing to do with buying, you know, Haya School and Selah ElTelmeez in Egypt. 00:26:32.230 --> 00:26:37.350 Yeah. What we do as the juniors, when you start at EFG and our BuySide platform, 00:26:37.790 --> 00:26:40.970 as an analyst and associate, you do everything. You work on everything. 00:26:42.560 --> 00:26:45.950 You can work on Vortex deals. You can work on some schools' deals, whatever we have. 00:26:46.090 --> 00:26:51.820 And once you sort of move up, you take a view on where you're going to be. 00:26:52.350 --> 00:26:53.470 You make a choice. 00:26:53.600 --> 00:26:56.770 You make a choice. And then, you know, you lose one of these words. 00:26:57.040 --> 00:27:01.890 Yeah, yeah. So talk to me about education. It started in 2019. 00:27:02.410 --> 00:27:07.190 What was the thinking behind creating a fund for education? 00:27:07.300 --> 00:27:08.410 The thesis worked. 00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:17.550 We're by far the largest student population in the region, 25 million of students' population. 00:27:17.970 --> 00:27:20.210 Next one in Saudi Arabia was 6.5 million. 00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:26.860 We have 90% of our K-12 students in public schools. 00:27:28.350 --> 00:27:32.050 The public schools have issues. They're overcrowded. there's not a lot of funding, 00:27:33.780 --> 00:27:37.970 that 10% of private schools need to increase substantially I mean in the UAE 00:27:38.030 --> 00:27:39.850 there's 73% of private schools, 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.520 so there is an opportunity for private capital to make an impact, 00:27:47.990 --> 00:27:50.390 The problem is that, again, we had zero track record. 00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:56.180 But by this stage, you're leveraging your previous involvement in the two, 00:27:56.180 --> 00:28:00.940 you know, the private equity platform into Vortex. You have the name of EFG behind you. 00:28:01.280 --> 00:28:02.940 Going to some family offices, 00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:09.790 in the Gulf and telling them I bought wind farms in France and I want to buy 00:28:09.790 --> 00:28:12.280 a school in Egypt. They'll laugh at it. 00:28:13.360 --> 00:28:15.800 And so you have to start in a way and a little bit different. 00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:19.440 And that's how we also came up with how we started so, 00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:24.200 Again, thanks to the gentleman, I mentioned his name before, 00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:29.840 Karim Awad, who did some interesting stuff supporting us and me. 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.160 I heard that GEMS was thinking of opening up in Egypt, so that's a great operator. 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:34.970 So I went to Sweeney Barki and Dino Barki. 00:28:35.110 --> 00:28:38.000 Is GEMS a UAE-based group? 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.270 Yeah, a very large one. 00:28:39.550 --> 00:28:44.850 Yes, I've seen them in the UAE, but I wasn't sure if they were UAE or if they were an import. 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:50.340 They have like 40,000 students or so. Yes, yes. He was one of the largest strong operators in the region. 00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:54.730