Karim Moussa: So I went to Karim Awad and I told him, look, if we buy wind farms in France for
Karim Moussa: 200 million, 100 million in equity and 100 million in debt, will you give me 5 million?
Karim Moussa: He said, OK, of course, if you raise 100 million, I'll give you 5 million.
Karim Moussa: Done. Went to Abu Dhabi and told him, look, you know.
Malak Fouad: Of course, he never thought you'd do it, huh?
Karim Moussa: The whole thing of also doing something good while you're investing, not just making money.
Karim Moussa: It's a thesis that I liked from day one. And if you see, we've done it after that education. Yes.
Malak Fouad: Hi, and welcome to What I Did Next from A&T Media. I'm Malak Fouad, your host.
Malak Fouad: Today, I'm bringing you a special episode with our sponsor, EFG Holding.
Malak Fouad: I recently interviewed Karim Moussa, Co-CEO of EFG Hermes Buy-Side,
Malak Fouad: Head of private equity and Asset Management, as well as CEO of Vortex Energy.
Malak Fouad: Even though Karim and I have many friends in common, we had never met.
Malak Fouad: Yet, our conversation was easy and chatty.
Malak Fouad: We talked about both his professional and personal life, and we started with his school days.
Karim Moussa: I was a naughty boy back in the days. I wasn't a good student.
Karim Moussa: I was a troublemaker in day one.
Karim Moussa: My colleagues or old friends would remind me of that. But,
Karim Moussa: my beginning of my career started with a tragedy with the loss of my dad.
Karim Moussa: I used to live with my dad. My mom and dad were divorced for a long period before.
Karim Moussa: And because I was a misbehaving teenager, I was living with my dad mostly.
Karim Moussa: And right before the last year of school, he passed away in the summer.
Karim Moussa: And it was, for me, a big turning point.
Karim Moussa: I grew up overnight. I had to take responsibility for myself immediately.
Karim Moussa: And, you know, from being, you know,
Karim Moussa: bottom top percent in class. I finished, I had to do High school,
Karim Moussa: my German, and I was not that good to do Abitur. So I did High school,
Karim Moussa: and I finished with top 10% in class.
Karim Moussa: And I ended up, you know, packing my stuff and moving to Germany to study engineering
Karim Moussa: and business in Germany.
Malak Fouad: You know, Karim, it's really interesting that you took the experience of losing
Malak Fouad: your father, it switched into a positive long term for you. A lot of kids would
Malak Fouad: have gone off the rails even more. They
Karim Moussa: expected me to do so at that time as well. I had no other choice.
Karim Moussa: And I think it set the tone for a lot of what came after. It wasn't that easy
Karim Moussa: as well immediately after because I,
Karim Moussa: the business of my dad went belly up and, you know, there wasn't a lot of cash for me to study.
Karim Moussa: So my mom used to send me some small amounts and I had to, you know,
Karim Moussa: I studied engineering and business, which is in the German engineering schools,
Karim Moussa: Technische Universität Berlin, is a tough degree to attempt.
Karim Moussa: And I was working on the side. And I did pizza man, I worked in construction
Karim Moussa: site, I did movers, I did Santa Claus.
Malak Fouad: What do those side hustles teach you? Because you meet people that you wouldn't
Malak Fouad: meet in your life today, but people I find who grow up in this way with
Malak Fouad: having to hustle and having to really do things on their own without help,
Malak Fouad: they're so much more resilient.
Malak Fouad: They have a resourcefulness that other people don't. Do you feel that about yourself?
Karim Moussa: Well, it teaches you to survive in a very early days when you're very young.
Karim Moussa: And Berlin in the 90s, late 90s was also a rough place. It's not like,
Karim Moussa: you know, you're studying in California on the beach. It's cold.
Karim Moussa: It was still, you know, coming out of sort of the East-West transition.
Karim Moussa: And it wasn't an easy place. And studying engineering, German mechanical engineering
Karim Moussa: and business in the same time while you were working, all kinds of jobs was tough.
Karim Moussa: But I, you know, the first couple of years, I've done all these,
Karim Moussa: you know, these fancy jobs
Karim Moussa: and then I ended up after finishing the four diploma, which is the so-called
Karim Moussa: Semi-Bachelor in Germany, I ended up doing office work.
Karim Moussa: So I worked part time in a fund, Berlin Capital Fund, which was a Tech, BioTech,
Karim Moussa: fund. And I started sort of understanding a bit, you know, the finance world.
Karim Moussa: But I was at that time sending faxes and typing in Excel spreadsheets but I
Karim Moussa: was earning good money and since then I actually called my mom,
Karim Moussa: with the age of 22 and told her I'm fine, I don't need any more cash and since
Karim Moussa: then I've been financially completely independent.
Malak Fouad: That's such an inspiring story and I think when.. I hope young people listen to
Malak Fouad: this and I think about people like my own children who are beginning their journeys like you were
Malak Fouad: and these are important stories and, you know, not everything gets handed to
Malak Fouad: you and you have to figure things out and you have to,
Malak Fouad: you know, find your own,
Malak Fouad: you know, well of resources inside to get you through it.
Malak Fouad: You know, I hope these stories resonate.
Karim Moussa: I'm actually reading a book right now, 'Green Lights' from Matthew McConaughey,
Karim Moussa: which talks a lot about this, you know, how, you know, life,
Karim Moussa: you know, throws you into, you know, tough moments, worst times, humiliation,
Karim Moussa: loss of friends and family
Karim Moussa: and he calls it red lights.
Karim Moussa: And every red light at the end turns at one point of time to a green light.
Karim Moussa: Red and yellow lights and and it's really what you do out of it and you know if,
Karim Moussa: i i figured that out very early in my life and and it was.. I mean, I had many
Karim Moussa: red lights in my career, you know, and the discussions maybe that we will continue
Karim Moussa: with that came and but, you know, changing, facing the problem,
Karim Moussa: pivoting and persisting into it,
Karim Moussa: and focusing on it, it will always turn green.
Malak Fouad: Do you look back on that time as being the hardest period?
Malak Fouad: Because I went through a very challenging time when I was in my mid-30s, I got very sick.
Malak Fouad: And now when I'm confronted with anything that makes me nervous or I'm a bit
Malak Fouad: anxious about, I remind myself that I won't ever go through the same difficulty
Malak Fouad: as I did then, so it just becomes so much easier.
Malak Fouad: Do you feel like that about that time in your life?
Karim Moussa: I mean, I don't remind myself, but I think it's plugged into you.
Karim Moussa: It's like in your coding, you know, you're already programmed.
Malak Fouad: Yeah, I think I understand that.
Karim Moussa: How hard is the next one compared to the previous one?
Malak Fouad: Yeah. Let's start with Deutsche Bank. That was your first major job.
Malak Fouad: Tell me a little bit about that. That was also in Berlin.
Karim Moussa: No, I joined in Frankfurt. Oh, you were in Frankfurt?
Karim Moussa: Yeah, I joined in September 2001, a very small team that does mid-cap M&A,
Karim Moussa: which I learned a lot in that team.
Karim Moussa: Doing mid-cap German M&A, small
Karim Moussa: transactions, small team, you get a lot of exposure to the deal-making.
Karim Moussa: I was, you know, interacting with, you know, with all these,
Karim Moussa: you know, Mittelstand, German entrepreneurs, succession issues,
Karim Moussa: It was also with big German corporates, AIS, Airbus, BMW.
Karim Moussa: And you're getting a lot of exposure. And this team was doing a lot of transactions,
Karim Moussa: sell-side, buy-side, 12, 13 transactions a year.
Karim Moussa: So I've learned a lot. But I also didn't have an easy start.
Karim Moussa: It's a very German environment that made cap market.
Malak Fouad: And it was right after 9-11, right, when you started?
Karim Moussa: I was just about to say, I joined the team September 1, nine days after.
Karim Moussa: And I was the only foreigner, not just Arab, the only foreigner I've ever had,
Karim Moussa: nine days after, an Egyptian pilot that studied in,
Karim Moussa: in Technical University of Hamburg, which is an hour away from Technical University
Karim Moussa: of Berlin, in Germany, was one of the pilots that flew the plane in one of the towers.
Karim Moussa: I honestly had some colleagues looking, you know, afraid at me.
Karim Moussa: There were all these very German aristocratic teams.
Karim Moussa: But anyway, I worked hard and I succeeded.
Karim Moussa: I, you know, proven myself. I got promoted over the years to an associate and,
Karim Moussa: and every time, I had these HR, I was on a fast track every time, I
Karim Moussa: had this HR reviews, I told them whenever you do something in the Middle East, let me know. And
Karim Moussa: they called me one day and told me look they are going to open up in the Middle
Karim Moussa: East and there's this guy called Ken Borda who runs Australia and Asia who's going to move to the Middle Eat and he needs
Karim Moussa: a business manager.
Malak Fouad: And Karim, why were you interested in anything to do with the Middle East?
Malak Fouad: Because you're obviously the language, the culture?
Karim Moussa: And by that time, I spent 10 years in Germany and I missed eating foul and tamaya
Karim Moussa: and going back and hearing the call of prayer and being in the Arab world.
Karim Moussa: I had never been to Dubai. I did the video conference with Ken Borda and I joined him.
Karim Moussa: But this was a major redlight that I discovered the year after.
Karim Moussa: That job, I was a young deal-maker and that job business manager was more or
Karim Moussa: less an extended secretary.
Karim Moussa: I was taking minutes and booking private jets and, you know,
Karim Moussa: talking to the regulator to
Karim Moussa: open offices and, you know, negotiating office rents and stuff like that.
Karim Moussa: And it was tough. I didn't like it at all.
Malak Fouad: And why did you do that? I mean, that was not a promotion.
Karim Moussa: I don't know. I was young and I heard that I was an offer in Dubai and,
Karim Moussa: you know, joined the CEO to open up Deutsche Bank.
Karim Moussa: And, you know, it was exciting. But the moment I had to literally carry his
Karim Moussa: bag, which he gave me a few times to do, I said, this is not going to work.
Karim Moussa: And I didn't know what to do. At that time, there was no investment banking.
Karim Moussa: So I'm private bank because of Deutsche Bank. 2005 in Dubai,
Karim Moussa: there was not even DIFC, we're in Emirates Towers.
Karim Moussa: And he realized I'm the wrong guy in the job and he just told me,
Karim Moussa: look, I mean, there's an investment banker coming who's going to open,
Karim Moussa: you know, from Hong Kong, who's going to open an investment bank and give it a try.
Karim Moussa: And I, you know, I met him and the guy told me, look, I don't want to hear about
Karim Moussa: what you did in Frankfurt.
Karim Moussa: You know, I put you on probation. I had six years. I was in six years in Deutsche
Karim Moussa: Bank and in the fast time, put you on probation for six months and,
Karim Moussa: you know, prove again if you can do it or not. Otherwise, you're out.
Karim Moussa: So I, you know, after six years in my career, I went on probation period.
Karim Moussa: And then we did some interesting data. So, Sokhna Port to Dubai Port,
Karim Moussa: we did Dubai Port IPO, we did EFC.
Malak Fouad: You're obviously a risk-taker because you could have stayed in the cushy job.
Malak Fouad: You were on a fast track, but you went out and you said, no,
Malak Fouad: I want to try something different. Even though the initial step wasn't to your
Malak Fouad: liking, it led to something else. So, there is a risk-taker there.
Karim Moussa: You have to, otherwise it becomes very boring.
Malak Fouad: Yeah, yeah.
Karim Moussa: Your entire life becomes very boring.
Malak Fouad: That's true.
Karim Moussa: I think at the moment it becomes boring, you have to start something else.
Karim Moussa: Otherwise, you know, otherwise you will degrade.
Karim Moussa: 2005 to 2007, 2008, three years, we did a lot of these transactions, good transactions.
Karim Moussa: And then that's the time where also that business became boring.
Karim Moussa: I was, you know, the broker, the investment banker between, you know,
Karim Moussa: an entrepreneur selling, making a lot of money or an investor buying,
Karim Moussa: you know, and restructuring or growing the business.
Karim Moussa: And I was always the middleman. And, you know, there's, you know,
Karim Moussa: for some people with some time that business is not fulfilling,
Karim Moussa: I wanted to be either the entrepreneur or the investor, you know.
Karim Moussa: And I decided to move to the buy-side, the private equity side.
Karim Moussa: And I like the idea of EFG because Hassan and Yasser at that time,
Karim Moussa: you know, they hired a team from Goldman to ramp up their private equity.
Karim Moussa: You know, EFG was known as a big sell-side brokerage and investment bank,
Karim Moussa: but, you know, private equity was still young and, you know,
Karim Moussa: there was something to be done. So I joined them.
Malak Fouad: 2009 by now?
Karim Moussa: That's, yeah, right before Lehman, 2008. I negotiated before Lehman and then
Karim Moussa: I joined right after the crisis.
Malak Fouad: And you had Ashraf Zaki in investment banking in Cairo at that time?
Karim Moussa: Yes, yes, but he was leaving. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Karim Moussa: Hazam Shawqi, the guy who came from Goldman, was effectively my boss at that time.
Karim Moussa: And then I, yeah, and then we started. Then I started my career within private equity at EFG.
Malak Fouad: And let's discuss that a little bit in more detail. You spent many,
Malak Fouad: you are still very much involved in private equity. You're heading it.
Malak Fouad: How did those early years evolve to what you're doing now for that platform?
Karim Moussa: When I joined, there was a fund, the so-called Old Horas Fund.
Karim Moussa: My first investment, you know, having sold Sokhna port to Dubai Ports,
Karim Moussa: there was a project with a feedlot with lots of cows and some slaughterhouses
Karim Moussa: that always interested me.
Karim Moussa: And I went back to Captain Osama Sharif and told him, you know,
Karim Moussa: tell me more about this and connect me to your partner, Danny Fakhri,
Karim Moussa: who was running that project.
Karim Moussa: Like they were importing livestock and, you know, there's a shortage in Egypt
Karim Moussa: with, you know, halal, fresh meat.
Karim Moussa: You know, you can import frozen, but your baladi beef is, you cannot,
Karim Moussa: you don't have arable land and enough water to feed everyone with fresh meat.
Karim Moussa: So the concept of importing livestock, putting them in a feedlot for a few months
Karim Moussa: and then, you know, slaughtering them on the ground, halal, and becomes like a,
Karim Moussa: you know, a premium baladi beef, cheaper than the baladi.
Karim Moussa: Was a great opportunity. We invested in our business and we created the brand,
Karim Moussa: Sokhna Beef and we were selling actually Sokhna Beef in Carrefour and first year
Karim Moussa: we did $100 million of revenue,
Karim Moussa: and then the revolution came.
Malak Fouad: Yep and that was a big..for you and for your work, it was a big pause
Karim Moussa: Completely there was a you know a series of change and ministries and
Karim Moussa: and you know Egypt was not open for business
Karim Moussa: actually for some time after that I was living most since 94 I left 95 I left
Karim Moussa: Egypt so I was at that time going back to Egypt but you know you know I was,
Karim Moussa: I paused and stayed in Dubai and, you know, I said, okay, let's just do deals,
Karim Moussa: you know, outside Egypt.
Karim Moussa: We were pretty much a big Egyptian-focused fund and set up.
Malak Fouad: You shifted the focus, instead of looking towards Egypt and inward,
Malak Fouad: you persuaded the bank that it was better to look outward.
Karim Moussa: We had still life ammunition, capital from the fund, and we could do regional
Karim Moussa: deals. So the mandate was there.
Karim Moussa: Although most of our these were in Egypt because naturally we knew the country
Karim Moussa: best and we were doing the best deals there.
Karim Moussa: In parallel, we did this first infrastructure fund Inframed under the Union for
Karim Moussa: the Mediterranean under,
Karim Moussa: Mohamed Rashid's leadership at that time and we did there the first wind project,
Karim Moussa: that's how we started understanding renewables, 114 MegaWatt,
Karim Moussa: wind development in Jordan,
Karim Moussa: which was one of the first IPPs on the defeat and tariff in the Levant.
Karim Moussa: So this was a line that was already, you know, tailored to do things outside Egypt. Then...
Karim Moussa: Back to setting a goal, I was telling the team, let's just look for undervalued
Karim Moussa: listed companies and taking them private. So there was a theme that we focused on.
Karim Moussa: We identified Damas as a very interesting company to do so with.
Karim Moussa: And we ended up taking Damas private with Manai Group for a $445 million transaction.
Karim Moussa: We put ourselves $85 million from our fund.
Karim Moussa: And a few years later, we sold out 2X and made like, over 30% IRR or a little
Karim Moussa: bit less than 2x and over 30% IRR.
Karim Moussa: So that was a good deal. That was the first sort of deal. And then,
Karim Moussa: but at that time, we did not have any more money. The funds were done and we
Karim Moussa: had to start a new strategy.
Malak Fouad: At this point, you had only one deal in the renewable energy sector.
Malak Fouad: And then it eventually evolved into Vortex down the line. Absolutely.
Karim Moussa: Q Invest, the Qataris were attempting to invest in EFG or buy, you know, EFG in 2012.
Karim Moussa: And we started working with them back by the Qataris, there was a lot of capital
Karim Moussa: and they, you know, they saw what we've done in the renewable space.
Karim Moussa: And we've been asked to look at Turkey
Karim Moussa: and try to find opportunities in the wind, specifically, like we've done in
Karim Moussa: Jordan and Turkey. So with their introduction, we went a lot to Turkey.
Karim Moussa: I never really managed to transact there.
Karim Moussa: The Turks always think that the Arabs are going to rip them off.
Karim Moussa: And the Arabs always think that the Turks are going to rip them off.
Karim Moussa: So there's never a common ground on the...
Karim Moussa: It dates back to the Ottomans. This is old history.
Karim Moussa: So we ended up, and then the deal fell apart with Qatar investing in EFG.
Karim Moussa: So I ended up again from square zero.
Karim Moussa: But then I told the team, you know what, the wind is not Turkish and it's not,
Karim Moussa: Egyptian or Arabic or German. And the turbine, whether you put it in the Middle
Karim Moussa: East or you put it in Germany or France, it's the same turbine.
Karim Moussa: Let's just go to Europe and let's pitch.
Karim Moussa: We all came from Europe, most of the team as well. Bakker came from the UK.
Karim Moussa: I worked in Germany. So let's just pitch them opportunities with feed-in tariff,
Karim Moussa: with these government guarantees in Europe, to sovereign funds in the Middle East.
Karim Moussa: The whole thing of also doing something good while you're investing,
Karim Moussa: not just making money, is a thesis that I liked from day one.
Karim Moussa: And if you see, we've done after that education and healthcare.
Karim Moussa: And these are the only things that we do.
Karim Moussa: And being a generalist, you know, buying cement and food and then,
Karim Moussa: you know, hospitality and tech and everything in the same time,
Karim Moussa: it doesn't work unless you're a KKR or a Blackstone. But we're a small team.
Karim Moussa: You either become very good on something and then extract some value in it.
Malak Fouad: I like that though, Karim. I like that there is like you're looking for things consciously.
Malak Fouad: There's a method to it.
Karim Moussa: So that was in 2014, which is the beginning of Vortex Energy.
Karim Moussa: And also thanks to EFG Holding and thanks to Karim Awad specifically,
Karim Moussa: which is a company that really supports this innovation, which is very important.
Karim Moussa: So I went to Karim and I told him, look, if we buy wind farms in France,
Karim Moussa: for 200 million, 100 million in equity and 100 million in debt,
Karim Moussa: Will you give me 5 million So I can put 5% of the equity? He said you're going
Karim Moussa: to buy wind farms in France With what money? Like we'll raise it from Abu Dhabi
Karim Moussa: He said, okay, of course. If you raise 100 million, I'll give you 5 million, of
Malak Fouad: course, he never thought you'd do it, huh?
Karim Moussa: Went to Abu Dhabi, he told him, look, would you buy, Would you invest in,
Karim Moussa: in operating wind farms and we put 5 million of our own money, you put 95 million
Karim Moussa: we put we get debt for the remainder and you know they were laughing at us. Have
Karim Moussa: you ever done anything in renewable energy? Of course not but,
Karim Moussa: we're not going to do a blind pool. This is a specific deal.
Karim Moussa: And long story short, we've convinced them. We went to the seller which was ETP
Karim Moussa: the Portuguese utility Mr.
Karim Moussa: Jaumann Zonetto, the CEO there, was laughing at us. I remember that meeting.
Karim Moussa: He told us, you're a bunch of cowboys, but I like you. Are you guys going to
Karim Moussa: deliver us? I guess we just come to Abu Dhabi once and we will deliver.
Malak Fouad: But it's interesting, Karim, because you must have, at that time,
Malak Fouad: it must have been really the seed of the idea for Abu Dhabi and the UAE to begin
Malak Fouad: looking at renewables as a strategy.
Karim Moussa: It must have been at the very beginning of the thing. Yeah, we were,
Karim Moussa: as a manager, we were one of the first to get their allocation into renewables.
Karim Moussa: And in 2014, remember, Malak, this is before the Paris Agreement.
Karim Moussa: Nobody was talking about net zero at that time.
Malak Fouad: Climate change wasn't on the agenda.
Karim Moussa: I remember going to Naguib Sawiris, he asked me actually, why, why invest in renewables?
Karim Moussa: He didn't understand the thesis of it.
Karim Moussa: People were just asking us why, why are you doing this?
Karim Moussa: Such a niche, you know. But we ended up buying,
Karim Moussa: 334 MegaWatts of 34 operating wind assets in France. We created Vortex One for 200 million.
Karim Moussa: EFG put the 5 million, 95 came from Abu Dhabi, and 100 million from Deutsche Bank.
Karim Moussa: And immediately after, we paid a 10% cash yield on that investment.
Karim Moussa: So it was very, very good.
Karim Moussa: And they've asked us for more. And this is how it started. And we were just
Karim Moussa: doing the vortexes after that. The second one was a much bigger portfolio.
Karim Moussa: By that time, you know, the Paris Agreement came. In 2016, we invested in Portugal
Karim Moussa: before Portugal was even investment grade.
Malak Fouad: And why did the business move to Spain eventually? Why did you leave France
Malak Fouad: and move everything to Spain?
Karim Moussa: Spain is by far the most advanced country in the energy transition and renewable energy.
Karim Moussa: By far, you know, globally, you know, in Europe and on a global stage.
Karim Moussa: And then now we're... Why is that, Karim?
Malak Fouad: I'm just curious. Why did Spain become more than...
Karim Moussa: They started very early on. A lot of their engineers are from Spain.
Karim Moussa: They went through retroactive changes and adopted their system.
Karim Moussa: They invested in their grade. They invested in regulations. They have a very
Karim Moussa: big country with lots of empty land and lots of good resources in wind and so on.
Karim Moussa: So it's always, you know, in terms of standards, it's miles ahead of everything
Karim Moussa: else. But in 2016, it wasn't the case.
Karim Moussa: We liked it because we had a trusted partner. It was the same utility. They had a portfolio.
Karim Moussa: We ended up, you know, buying 664 MegaWatts of a wind portfolio in Portugal,
Karim Moussa: Spain, Belgium, and France.
Karim Moussa: And this deal was in the neighborhood of 550 million. And the equity was like 200 something million.
Karim Moussa: We've raised that same model, 5% comes from EFG and 95% from investors.
Karim Moussa: And then Vortex 3, the first time we go into the solar space,
Karim Moussa: we acquired a portfolio of solar assets in the UK.
Karim Moussa: Also was troubled Terraform Power and SunEdison was from bankruptcy.
Karim Moussa: And so it was always something to unlock there.
Karim Moussa: And here in a period of a few years we invested over 1.6 billion in equity and debt.
Malak Fouad: And does Vortex have a footprint in Egypt? Because I know that the solar business
Malak Fouad: is becoming a big thing in Egypt or are you an outside, out of the country business?
Karim Moussa: We're just primarily looking at these European markets and the reason was the Arab spring.
Karim Moussa: I mean we started investing outside because the markets at that time that was
Karim Moussa: attractive for renewable energy was Jordan and Egypt.
Karim Moussa: You know, they had feed-in tariffs. It was interesting. But,
Karim Moussa: you know, the geopolitical dynamics and currency exposure to an extent.
Karim Moussa: And again, remind you the history of where we came from with our legacy.
Karim Moussa: So we, I was just like, we said, okay, and it worked.
Malak Fouad: Is today that thinking shifting or changing? Is Egypt on your radar now?
Malak Fouad: Yeah. Because everything you described about Spain fits Egypt.
Malak Fouad: Huge swathes of land in the middle that have nothing on them. You put solar panels.
Karim Moussa: Now with Egypt liberalizing the electricity market and the subsidies going away
Karim Moussa: and all of that becomes a much more interesting environment to invest.
Malak Fouad: I want to ask you, because it's something we talked about in our last call.
Malak Fouad: You mentioned about how you like the concept of decentralization when it comes
Malak Fouad: to the businesses you're running.
Malak Fouad: Why do you like it? What is it about the decentralized model that appeals to you?
Karim Moussa: I think the era of having a country head and, you know,
Karim Moussa: and the product head and the coverage head and layers of, you know,
Karim Moussa: organization and politics, at least in our buy-side business, doesn't work.
Karim Moussa: And, you know, when you're an investor, you're an investor. And,
Karim Moussa: you know, a portfolio manager takes care of his portfolio and invests,
Karim Moussa: you know, and he wants just to, you know, invest and divest and create returns for the investors.
Karim Moussa: So when I took over, I we said, okay, let's just decentralize,
Karim Moussa: make it a multi boutique sort of,
Karim Moussa: platform, you can add products. At the moment, we have three and we'll focus
Karim Moussa: on these three in the private equity space.
Karim Moussa: And then we have FIM doing our regional asset management run by one CIO and
Karim Moussa: his PMs and Nabil Moussa in Egypt running Egypt asset management with his PMs.
Karim Moussa: And then each of effectively the product heads for our verticals and private equity.
Malak Fouad: Is that an EFG policy or is that something that you like to do within your spheres?
Karim Moussa: It's a policy I, you know, developed with Karim Awad.
Malak Fouad: I see. So it's a bank-wide
Malak Fouad: structure.
Karim Moussa: Yeah, when I took over, we were sitting with,
Karim Moussa: With the holding, with Karim, you know, being also, you know,
Karim Moussa: a supervisor of all of this and also a capital provider for a lot of our businesses.
Karim Moussa: We came up with that solution-oriented buy-side platform.
Karim Moussa: Because every business is completely different. Investing in wind farms in France
Karim Moussa: and Spain has nothing to do with buying, you know, Haya School and Selah ElTelmeez in Egypt.
Karim Moussa: Yeah. What we do as the juniors, when you start at EFG and our BuySide platform,
Karim Moussa: as an analyst and associate, you do everything. You work on everything.
Karim Moussa: You can work on Vortex deals. You can work on some schools' deals, whatever we have.
Karim Moussa: And once you sort of move up, you take a view on where you're going to be.
Malak Fouad: You make a choice.
Karim Moussa: You make a choice. And then, you know, you lose one of these words.
Malak Fouad: Yeah, yeah. So talk to me about education. It started in 2019.
Malak Fouad: What was the thinking behind creating a fund for education?
Karim Moussa: The thesis worked.
Karim Moussa: We're by far the largest student population in the region, 25 million of students' population.
Karim Moussa: Next one in Saudi Arabia was 6.5 million.
Karim Moussa: We have 90% of our K-12 students in public schools.
Karim Moussa: The public schools have issues. They're overcrowded. there's not a lot of funding,
Karim Moussa: that 10% of private schools need to increase substantially I mean in the UAE
Karim Moussa: there's 73% of private schools,
Karim Moussa: so there is an opportunity for private capital to make an impact,
Karim Moussa: The problem is that, again, we had zero track record.
Malak Fouad: But by this stage, you're leveraging your previous involvement in the two,
Malak Fouad: you know, the private equity platform into Vortex. You have the name of EFG behind you.
Karim Moussa: Going to some family offices,
Karim Moussa: in the Gulf and telling them I bought wind farms in France and I want to buy
Karim Moussa: a school in Egypt. They'll laugh at it.
Karim Moussa: And so you have to start in a way and a little bit different.
Karim Moussa: And that's how we also came up with how we started so,
Karim Moussa: Again, thanks to the gentleman, I mentioned his name before,
Karim Moussa: Karim Awad, who did some interesting stuff supporting us and me.
Karim Moussa: I heard that GEMS was thinking of opening up in Egypt, so that's a great operator.
Karim Moussa: So I went to Sweeney Barki and Dino Barki.
Malak Fouad: Is GEMS a UAE-based group?
Karim Moussa: Yeah, a very large one.
Malak Fouad: Yes, I've seen them in the UAE, but I wasn't sure if they were UAE or if they were an import.
Karim Moussa: They have like 40,000 students or so. Yes, yes. He was one of the largest strong operators in the region.
Karim Moussa: So they had an attempt in Egypt and Alexandria did not work some years ago.
Karim Moussa: And they were trying to find someone to show them the way in Egypt.
Karim Moussa: We did this at that time 50/50 joint venture. And I told them, look, you know.
Karim Moussa: And I then went to Mr. Hisham Talat, who had schools in Madinty and Rehab communities ,
Karim Moussa: besides the hotels and besides the real estate.
Karim Moussa: You know, I figured that might not be core. And, you know, we could sell it.
Karim Moussa: And, you know, with the relationships of EFG, we went and spoke to him and,
Karim Moussa: you know, we ended up convincing him to sell to us.
Karim Moussa: And we bought his four scores, three in Madinaty and one in Rehab,
Karim Moussa: on balance sheet because I didn't have a fund nor a track record.
Karim Moussa: Bought in GEMS to operate them and now had all the right ingredients.
Karim Moussa: I had spoons already in the portfolio.
Karim Moussa: I had one of the best operator, you know, in the market operating them.
Karim Moussa: And then we went front rate. And in a matter of three months,
Karim Moussa: we've raised $150 million. What do you see?
Karim Moussa: One of the easiest fund launches that we had before.
Malak Fouad: And how many schools are part of the fund now, are part of the portfolio now?
Karim Moussa: Now we have 25 assets. You know, assets is across many things.
Karim Moussa: So we own Selah ElTelmeez, which is a beautiful business that,
Karim Moussa: you know, does books for 4 million students.
Karim Moussa: We produce 20 million books a year.
Karim Moussa: We own a transportation business that does purely bus transportation with the
Karim Moussa: right health and safety, with the right application and tracking system for our,
Karim Moussa: schools and others with transporting 3,000 students on a daily basis.
Karim Moussa: We own kindergartens under the platform called Trillium and we own El-Haya,
Karim Moussa: East and West. We bought it and opened another one. Now we're taking El-Haya to Saudi Arabia.
Malak Fouad: And are you only in Cairo in Egypt? Did you send originally the GEMS?
Karim Moussa: No, we're in Alexandria as well. And we're in Soma Bay.
Malak Fouad: And are you looking to move further afield into the other governorates in Egypt?
Karim Moussa: Yeah, we're open to expanding.
Karim Moussa: We're actually just under that platform. We've announced the university with,
Karim Moussa: Hisham Talat and Noor City earlier this year. So that's interesting.
Malak Fouad: And what is MindSpire?
Karim Moussa: MindSpire. So last year in 2025, we replicated the same model and the same story
Karim Moussa: in Saudi Arabia. As I mentioned, it's the second largest market,
Karim Moussa: has very similar problems.
Karim Moussa: You know, obviously, they're more
Karim Moussa: cash rich than Egypt, but 85% of their students are in public schools.
Karim Moussa: Only 15%, as mentioned, you know, over 70% in the UAE are in private schools.
Karim Moussa: So they're lagging behind even the GCC sort of benchmarks.
Karim Moussa: They need massive amount of,
Karim Moussa: of schools, I mean, the studies are around 400,000 seats,
Karim Moussa: you know, by 2030 that means like, you know, every week there's two schools
Karim Moussa: that need to open a new from now to then. Obviously, Egypt is not Saudi so we
Karim Moussa: had to look for a Saudi team and we sent some of our Egyptians to Saudi and,
Karim Moussa: But that time we could raise a fund because we had the track record,
Karim Moussa: we had the story, we had the operator and we had the know-how of operating and we could go into Egypt.
Karim Moussa: And by the way, the synergies are there. You know, Egypt over decades ago,
Karim Moussa: the teachers, all the curriculums were all based out of Egypt back in the days
Karim Moussa: in the Gulf and in Saudi Arabia.
Karim Moussa: So we did not reinvent the wheel by sending teachers or doing teachers-training
Karim Moussa: from Egypt to Saudi Arabia. This is something that's been there since decades.
Malak Fouad: Absolutely. It just went
Karim Moussa: Down in quality in the last few decades. And we're here to revive it again because,
Karim Moussa: you know, we are Arabic-speaking.
Karim Moussa: We have the same culture, same religion.
Malak Fouad: And there's traditionally been synergy in education between Egypt and Saudi
Malak Fouad: for, as you said, for decades.
Karim Moussa: Absolutely. In education and in healthcare. Two sectors.
Karim Moussa: We're now in our second year and, you know, we're over $250 million of commitment.
Karim Moussa: We've got all the big families subscribing into it and supporting us.
Karim Moussa: And we felt at one point of time Egypt education platform,
Karim Moussa: Saudi education platform.
Karim Moussa: It's a bit boring.
Malak Fouad: It sounds German though, Karim. MindSpire.
Karim Moussa: I have nothing to do with it.
Malak Fouad: A little German accent.
Karim Moussa: MindSpire with a pen. So we've launched the brand. So it's a,
Karim Moussa: and again, it's not a brand of a school.
Karim Moussa: It's a brand of a holding that has multiple brands on there.
Karim Moussa: We own the brand, the GEMS in Egypt, or we have a franchise agreement in Saudi.
Karim Moussa: We have Haya, we have Trillium, we can add a lot of other brands.
Karim Moussa: So it's a holding brand.
Malak Fouad: Are you looking eventually to roll the concept out into other markets in the
Malak Fouad: Middle East? Are there other markets where this can be a viable proposition?
Karim Moussa: The answer is yes, yeah.
Malak Fouad: Like Jordan, maybe? Palestine?
Karim Moussa: Smaller markets, but you know, there are markets that are coming,
Karim Moussa: you know, starting from scotch, like Iraq.
Karim Moussa: Massive big market with lots of demand so but we're so busy now we just started
Karim Moussa: last year in Saudi so just we need to, you know,
Karim Moussa: Steps first one by one before we run to another thing.
Malak Fouad: So Karim, I want us to move on into a sort of a lighter part.
Malak Fouad: You're constantly on a plane from all these different locations. What do you do to relax?
Karim Moussa: Well, I'm starting farming in Spain.
Malak Fouad: As a hobby?
Karim Moussa: As a hobby. What are you going to farm?
Malak Fouad: What are you farming?
Karim Moussa: All type of vegetables and fruits. And I'm getting chicken and donkeys soon.
Malak Fouad: I love this.
Malak Fouad: Why did you go with that?
Karim Moussa: I love nature. I love being in nature.
Karim Moussa: I try to do a lot of sports,
Karim Moussa: and listen to music.
Malak Fouad: So we're going to end with a signature feature of the show, which is called the lightning round.
Malak Fouad: And I'm just going to throw out some sentences to you and just don't think too
Malak Fouad: much, just answer. All right?
Malak Fouad: So if you had 25 hours in a day, what would you do with that extra hour?
Karim Moussa: Sleep.
Malak Fouad: Considering all you're doing and traveling all these places,
Malak Fouad: I think sleep is a valid answer.
Karim Moussa: Reflect is a better one. Yeah, reflect is the right one. That's one of the things
Karim Moussa: I keep on doing by reading these books now.
Malak Fouad: Don't you find that being on a plane is a very good place to reflect because
Malak Fouad: you're kind of suspended?
Karim Moussa: Yeah, if you actually make it a point to reflect, because you can actually also,
Karim Moussa: you know, now with the internet, be on your WhatsApp and, you know,
Karim Moussa: start scrolling and watch a movie.
Karim Moussa: And the plane is not, but if you really, you know, make it a point that you
Karim Moussa: use that time to do this. Yeah, yeah.
Malak Fouad: Adrenaline junkie or beach-bum?
Karim Moussa: Adrenaline junkie.
Malak Fouad: The buzz of starting a new division or the business or satisfaction of seeing
Malak Fouad: a business grow and mature?
Karim Moussa: Can I answer both?
Malak Fouad: Yeah, you can answer both. You like the beginning part where it's all exciting
Malak Fouad: and new and then you like to
Karim Moussa: see it grow. Yes, it's like saying you like apples more or oranges. I mean, I like both.
Malak Fouad: So before I go on with the rest of the lightning round, which of the three divisions is the most exciting?
Malak Fouad: Private equity, Vortex, education fund, or is that a cyclical thing?
Karim Moussa: It really goes, yeah. My team gets jealous when I spend more time
Karim Moussa: with one side and not the other side.
Karim Moussa: But it's really, it depends on the times. When you are building,
Karim Moussa: raising money, and you're still, you need to focus on one area a bit more when
Karim Moussa: the other one is investing or portfolio managing.
Karim Moussa: And, you know, now we're going to go with, you know, Ignis and exiting exits.
Karim Moussa: So we just have to spend more time, you know. So it's really, it flows over the years.
Malak Fouad: One of the things I'm doing with all my guests this year is,
Malak Fouad: you know, we're at a point, I think, globally, both economically,
Malak Fouad: geopolitically, with AI, we're at an inflection point, I feel.
Malak Fouad: And so I'm asking people to look ahead. We've spent a lot of time looking back
Malak Fouad: at your life, at your pivot points, but I want you to look ahead and I want
Malak Fouad: you to think about what are the things you're excited about, about what's coming up?
Karim Moussa: It is very...
Karim Moussa: Interesting to think about what's coming up because, I mean,
Karim Moussa: nobody can read the room as we speak. It's changing so fast.
Karim Moussa: But if I am an optimist, you know,
Karim Moussa: I hope this is where we're going to go. It's like, we're going to do what we're
Karim Moussa: doing with the help of a lot of, you know,
Karim Moussa: computing resources with much more higher efficiency, which will allow us to
Karim Moussa: do much more than we would like to do, you know,
Karim Moussa: whether it means more business, you know, or, you know, go farming or do something else on the side.
Karim Moussa: But I hope that, you know, a lot of the work that we will outsource to the computers,
Karim Moussa: will free up our resources to do more work,
Karim Moussa: or develop somewhere else. And that's exciting.
Malak Fouad: It is exciting. Thinking in the same sort of global issues.
Malak Fouad: What are the areas you're worried about?
Karim Moussa: All these...
Karim Moussa: strange, you know, geopolitical dynamics that we also cannot read.
Karim Moussa: And I, you know, I'm sad that we're going through these times. Very sad.
Malak Fouad: Do you also worry about the negativity of AI or the doomsday element of AI?
Karim Moussa: You know, I try not to worry about too much about it. I'm trying to,
Karim Moussa: you know, when Internet came, we were all worried about Internet and we were,
Karim Moussa: you know, and we were all knowing what was going to happen.
Karim Moussa: And it ended up in a very positive way. And I hope also we can control the direction,
Karim Moussa: of that power into a positive way.
Malak Fouad: Yeah, I hope so. If you had to choose another profession, what would you do?
Karim Moussa: I would do exactly the same thing.
Malak Fouad: Really?
Karim Moussa: Yes.
Malak Fouad: You felt like you landed in the right place?
Karim Moussa: I like what I do.
Malak Fouad: What's your favorite activity?
Karim Moussa: Being in nature.
Malak Fouad: Nice. What's your least favorite activity?
Karim Moussa: Doing routine work.
Malak Fouad: Okay. I'm going to say the beginning of a sentence and I want you to end it. I have a hard time.
Karim Moussa: Slowing down.
Malak Fouad: I get joy from.
Karim Moussa: Love.
Malak Fouad: That's it.
Karim Moussa: Okay.
Malak Fouad: Thank you so much. That was really a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it.
Malak Fouad: Thanks for joining me today. I'm Malak Fouad and this episode was produced by Chirag Desai.
Malak Fouad: We'll have a brand new guest in a couple of weeks. But before that,
Malak Fouad: we'll be airing the panel discussion that I moderated in mid-May as part of
Malak Fouad: the AI Summit that came to you from the amazing team at the Narrative Summit
Malak Fouad: and e&. I hope you can join me then.