WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:04.879 You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk 2 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:12.000 about the Bible in fun, in practical ways. Hey, well, my 3 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:15.400 name is Chris Zarba and I'm Jeff Forster, and we're the Bible Guy. 4 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:18.559 We are the Bible Guy. Yes, And so we have a very special 5 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:23.239 episode scheduled for you today because our series ended sort of midweek and so we 6 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.280 thought, you know, Ashley Desiree thought it would be a good idea to 7 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:30.280 throw some bonus episodes together. And she's clearly the brains behind the operation, 8 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:35.200 of course. And also, this is one of our favorite segments and some 9 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:39.240 of our listeners favorite segments called Stump the Pastor, And we're doing a compilation 10 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.119 of a couple of different ones that I think you're gonna enjoy today. Yeah, 11 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:46.920 so sit back and enjoy Stump the Pastor on the Bible Guys. So 12 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:51.200 today we have a segment called Stump the Pastor. Oh Yes, And this 13 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:56.520 is written by Brian L. Brian and this is how it reads. The 14 00:00:56.560 --> 00:01:00.520 Bible mentions how Jesus was tempted by the devil but never sinned. Do you 15 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:06.280 think it was because he was setting an example for us and showing us how 16 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:08.920 to overcome temptations? Or do you think that Jesus, being the son of 17 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:17.439 God was physically and otherwise unable to sin? Brian ll wow, well this 18 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:21.359 is this is a big question, isn't it. Well, this is a 19 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:26.120 fraught with minefields. So thanks Brian, it just yeah, yeah, well 20 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:33.239 to those who in the room. So there are are fields of thought on 21 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:37.359 both sides of this issue. Was it possible for Jesus to sin so because 22 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:40.799 he was one hundred percent man? Was it possible to sin? On the 23 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:44.959 other side because he was one hundred percent God? God can't sin? So 24 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.439 right, well, then if Jesus couldn't sin, then was it really a 25 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:52.560 temptation? Right? Was he just going through the motions? I think that's 26 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.079 kind of what Brian is asking here. I think so too, But he 27 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.439 hasks it with only two ideas. Isn't it true though, that, like 28 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:01.680 either answer is a heretic according to the other sides of pampe Oh yeah, 29 00:02:01.719 --> 00:02:07.519 so there. Throughout Christianity there have been various heresies that have sprung up on 30 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:12.520 both sides that you know, Jesus wasn't actually man, or that he was 31 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.680 less man and more God, or whatever or the other side. So you 32 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:20.960 know, alls I would say is we're going to stumble through this a little 33 00:02:20.960 --> 00:02:23.120 bit. We're going to give our opinions on it. And all of the 34 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:28.120 YouTube theologians out there that want to fire off a bunch of angry emails at 35 00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:35.400 us, Hey, we've been called heretics by better than you probably so so. 36 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:38.639 But here's here's the thing. There's a third piece to this. So 37 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:42.639 he says, was he going through the motions to show us how to overcome 38 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:46.840 temptation? Or was this a legitimate temptation that you know, or because he 39 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:51.240 was God, then it wasn't a temptation, right, Those would be the 40 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:54.520 side the sides of this equation. So here's what I would say. I 41 00:02:54.560 --> 00:03:00.199 believe that it was one a legitimate temptation. Yeah you said, there's the 42 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:01.960 third thing. Yeah, I forget where I was going with it. Oh 43 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:07.159 okay, okay, yeah. Oh so the power the Holy Spirit. So 44 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:10.759 so I believe that Jesus, everything Jesus did, Jesus said, you'll be 45 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:14.159 able to my followers will do greater things than I do, and it is 46 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:16.240 because of the Holy Spirit. Right, So I believe that what Jesus did 47 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:22.520 is he walked in the whole power the Holy Spirit as a man is what 48 00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:27.000 he did, even as he was perfectly God. And that's that's a So 49 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.280 let's get back to the temptation. You said they're legitimate temptations. I think 50 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:34.439 that they were one hundred legitimate temptations. Yes. So I wrote a paper 51 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:37.719 on this in college, by the way, and got an F. Which, 52 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:39.159 by the way, before you say that, because hebrew says he was 53 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:43.919 tempted in every way right, even as we were, and even as we 54 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:47.759 were, and he didn't he chose not to sin, and that that verse 55 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:51.879 implies that he can relate to how we struggle. That's right, right, 56 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.280 that's and if and if it's impossible for us to sin, that's the only 57 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:57.879 way they could be the same. That's right. But if it's possible for 58 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:00.800 us to sin, then he can relate to our struggle. Yeah, So 59 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:02.719 I wrote a paper on this in college and got an F. So he 60 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:09.319 gave me an A for writing and structure and an F for content. Disagreed 61 00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:13.719 with what I said and warned me that I was a heretic on this, 62 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.759 but I was trying to split the difference. Here's what I believe I believe 63 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:21.720 that Jesus was one hundred percent God, one hundred percent man. As God, 64 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:26.120 the Bible says he cannot sin as man. We're all tempted to sin 65 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:30.040 in this legitimate right, in the power of the Holy Spirit, he avoided 66 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.360 sinning. I believe that if Jesus had to sind, he would have ceased 67 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:36.720 to be God, right, is what would have happened. But he did 68 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:43.079 not sin, And so I think that that temptation was fraught with tremendous danger 69 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.480 all every time Jesus would be tempted to sin, I think it was fraught 70 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.399 with tremendous danger for all of humanity at that point. But being God, 71 00:04:49.480 --> 00:04:55.480 he navigated it perfectly. Right. So I don't think he overcame sin because 72 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:58.959 he was God. I think he was tempted as a man and overcame sin 73 00:04:59.360 --> 00:05:00.800 in the power of the whole spirit. Right, because if you remember, 74 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:03.920 the Holy Spirit descended upon him like a dove. Then he went out into 75 00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:08.000 the wilderness to be tempted for forty days. Right. And then, by 76 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.560 the way, the temptations that you see, lust of the flesh, lust 77 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:13.680 of the eyes, and the pride of life. Those are the three temptations 78 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:15.839 Satan brought. Those are the three that are recorded, but it says he 79 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:20.120 was tempted for forty days and forty nights, so it was a different thing. 80 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:25.439 But what it's highlighting is the fact that Jesus overcame those temptations through the 81 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.839 power of the Holy Spirit and through the Word of God. And I think 82 00:05:28.879 --> 00:05:30.360 that those are the two bullets we have in our gun against the devil too, 83 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.879 is the power of the Holy Spirit and the words of God. Yeah, 84 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:38.879 that's great. Yeah, And I also want to acknowledge, you know, 85 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:45.319 the postmodern part of me that says, you know, most of the 86 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.439 time we are given limited information, sure, and so you know, I 87 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:51.519 mean, we know some things for sure, right, and that's when we 88 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:55.399 base everything off of it. Right, And we know that it's impossible for 89 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:59.560 God to sin, that he cannot exist with sin. We also know that 90 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:05.399 on the US Jesus became sin, right, so he got first Corinthians. 91 00:06:05.480 --> 00:06:09.040 So in other words, he who knew no sin became sin for us, 92 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:14.199 yes, right, And so now he didn't choose sin. Sin was was 93 00:06:14.199 --> 00:06:16.439 was put upon him, right, like the scapegoat ne Old Testament. Yes, 94 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.680 like the scapegoat in the Old Testament, So we do know that he 95 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:29.000 still was God in that moment, and yet there was sin on him as 96 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:31.879 as a person, right, and so in that moment, it's believed that 97 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.680 there was a separation, you know, on the cross on the ninth hour, 98 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:39.439 which is like three o'clock in the afternoon or in the afternoon, when 99 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.680 he shouts out, my God, why have you forsaken me? The theory 100 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:47.800 is is that God the Father forsook him, right like he was forsaken turned 101 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:51.839 his back, so he must have turned his back or or removed his presence, 102 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:56.399 right, Jesus found himself separated for the first time. And and by 103 00:06:56.399 --> 00:07:00.399 the way, we don't fully understand intrinsically how they work together, really, 104 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:04.800 so we're taking our best guess on our knowledge because we don't quite understand fully 105 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:08.959 how that is. But we know for certain that he was forsaken, yes, 106 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:12.800 right, And we also know forsaken for sure that he was still God, 107 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:17.519 and he he had sin as a part of who he was. Right, 108 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:21.160 So God has some way to separate these two things, the flesh right 109 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:26.759 that the humanity and the God had in some way where Jesus was able to 110 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.480 preserve his deity God was able to preserve the deity of Christ while he became 111 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.399 the embodiment of sin, so that God could bring judgement on It's very confusing 112 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.319 to us. I think that I think the mechanisms of that are far more 113 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:43.399 complex than we repreence completely. And again, I mean, if God wanted 114 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.079 us to know exactly how it worked, he'd say, let me tell you 115 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:47.360 how this is going to work. Right, He didn't say any of those 116 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:51.800 things. So we are left with limited information, you know, to guess 117 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:56.680 about God. But the things that we cling to certainly, or the things 118 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.600 that we know are true. The fact that he is God and sacrifice was 119 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.160 good enough for us. And at the same time we should be encouraged that 120 00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.360 he was tempted just like we are. Yes, but he didn't sin. 121 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:13.800 And then Paul tells us later or you know in Corinthians that there's no temptation 122 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:16.639 that's taking you, but such as is common, Deman. But God is 123 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.839 faithful and he will give us a way to escape, right, And so 124 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.480 that way to escape, I believe is through the power of the Holy Spirit 125 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.160 surrendered to him, and through God's words cleaning our minds, changing our minds, 126 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.639 resetting our prayers, ten twelve is what you just quoted, because that's 127 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.799 the first verse I ever rememborized. Oh wow, really yeah, really is 128 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.080 Yeah. So this is an incredibly complex thing, and trust me, I 129 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:41.639 feel like we did the best we could to walk the razor's edge. Because 130 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:46.879 there are heresies on both sides of this, it's not unreasonable to ask the 131 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:52.360 question. I don't know that you build your entire theology over the answer to 132 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.759 this, because it's it's more complex than we can And by the way, 133 00:08:54.799 --> 00:09:03.799 it's worth noting as well that at the moment that Jesus became understand that that 134 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:07.919 the principles of sin were already in motion for the forgiveness of them, right, 135 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:11.720 because sin demands of sacrifice, Sin demands of shedding of blood. So 136 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:16.000 the principles of sin were in motion as he became sin. Right, So 137 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:20.799 he was already shedding his blood. He was atoning for the sin that he 138 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.399 became. Yes, So so that I mean, there's definitely something there. 139 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:26.840 It was all happening at the same time, right. It's not as if 140 00:09:26.919 --> 00:09:31.279 God, in his infinite wisdom in infinity past, was just living in sin. 141 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.519 Do you remember remember in what is it? You're a member better than 142 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:37.559 me. Remember the thing that they tried to put in a box in Thor 143 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:43.320 movies, they tried to put in the power thing or whatever. Oh are 144 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:46.480 you are you talking about the Spreaderman movie? No? No, no, 145 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.919 no, no, no, no, it's I forget. Anyways, sometimes 146 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:52.440 in the superhero movies they try to take this power and put it in a 147 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:58.159 box, right, to contain this uh, this this power. It's almost 148 00:09:58.200 --> 00:10:03.559 like that's what happened at the Cross. Jesus becomes sin, but it's encapsulated 149 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.559 in the fact that he was atoning for it. God was atoning for this 150 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:13.480 powerful sin at the same time and contained all of the violence and the danger 151 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.960 and the horror of this sin at the exact same time he was atoning for 152 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:20.399 it. He became it, right, and it kind of it kind of 153 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:26.600 encapsulated this in a way that made it possible for him then to defeat death 154 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.360 and sin and hell in the grave, and then his resurrection demonstrates this power. 155 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:33.519 So anyways, I don't remember what that is, but I think that 156 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:37.480 maybe you're thinking of a movie that Thor was in that wasn't a Thor movie, 157 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:41.960 The Tests React, Oh the Tests Act, Yeah, ye, yeah, 158 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:46.120 which was in Odin's chambers. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, 159 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.080 Yeah, well they didn't put it in a box. The test Act was 160 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:52.879 already right in a box. Yeah, but they trying to contain this power 161 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:56.960 because my mind had about seventy five references of things getting put in a box, 162 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.440 right, right, right, So it's kind of this encapsulated a danger 163 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:05.000 power thing that happens. Anyways, Well, Sarah g asks this one, 164 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.039 and it is it's a tough one. Do you want me to read it 165 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:09.519 and you take a shot at it? Sure? Okay, good, I'm 166 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:13.440 glad you're taking a shot at this one. Yes, So Sarah g asks, 167 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:16.879 when loved ones pass away, some people say that they're now watching over 168 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:20.000 us. Do you really think that people and having can look down on earth 169 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:26.039 and see what's going on? Yeah. So here's the bottom line. Most 170 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:28.480 of the answers, in fact, almost all the answers to these questions are 171 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:35.200 we don't know. Because and again, this is the difference between I always 172 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:39.000 like to say this, it's the difference between the modern church and the postmodern 173 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.759 church. Yeah. So one of the very definitions of postmodernity is being okay 174 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.720 with the mystery of God, you know, as opposed to you know, 175 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.759 the modern era, which says everything that can be known is able to be 176 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:56.960 known and can be found, which, by the way, was the cause 177 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.240 of all denominations, was in that motern era. Right, it can be 178 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:07.879 known. We disagree, right, thousands of people disagree denominations. And I'm 179 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:11.039 not I'm not a guy who just says, hey, who knows. I'm 180 00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.039 not that guy. But what I am is I embraced the mystery of God 181 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:18.120 and saying, like, God only gives us this much information on this topic. 182 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:22.120 So we have what three or four references that we could look to, 183 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.559 and you know, we have you know, we have the Cloud of Witnesses 184 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.159 verse that people use to talk about this and Hebrews what is it eleven? 185 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.840 Right? And then and then there's the story of the rich Man and Lazarus, 186 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:41.480 where somebody looks out from eternity and and and has knowledge of somebody on 187 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.360 earth. You know, in heaven there's knowledge of somebody on earth. So 188 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.480 the point is there's only a few different places where we have knowledge. But 189 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.240 for the most part, if God wanted us to know, he would let 190 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:54.279 us know. So I think the ultimate answer is we don't know, But 191 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:03.360 I'm going to say this. None of the evidence supports it, none of 192 00:13:03.399 --> 00:13:09.200 the evidence leans toward that truth that our loved ones look down. But ultimately, 193 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:15.399 I again am the firm believer, just because we only have two or 194 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.919 three little nuggets and none of them lean toward it. All we have left 195 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.759 is logic, yeah, and reasoning and uh, And I would just say, 196 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.879 hey, which got invented? Sure? Sure, But I would just 197 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:30.759 say, ultimately, it's completely possible, even if there's no evidence for it, 198 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:33.919 even if logic says, and I know what you're gonna say, uh, 199 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:37.799 And I I think I leaned toward I think I leaned toward its. 200 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:43.879 I it's not likely, but I completely am open to getting to heaven and 201 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:48.840 God saying, oh, yeah, that's completely true. Here's how it's possible. 202 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.799 We do know that angels watch us, right that that that was that 203 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.759 was being spoken there in the last yesterday's or two days ago, is reading 204 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:01.240 angels watching me. But I would say the logic of it would be if 205 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.000 your loved one was in heaven in eternity, they're outside of time in space 206 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.879 at this point, there is no more disease. It's perfect life for them 207 00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:16.519 to witness every moment of your life dying would be a lot of grief in 208 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:20.519 heaven. For them to witness every sin you commit while they're sitting next to 209 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:24.279 the one who paid the ransom for your sin, I think would be tremendous 210 00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.720 grief. I think when you start to work out the logic of it, 211 00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.600 would it be heaven for them if they were always only grieving over you. 212 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:37.720 So for us, we have these few delightful moments each day, and those 213 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.440 are the moments we live for, and we live for those vacations and those 214 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.399 beautiful sunsets and things like that. But most of life is a struggle because 215 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.639 we live under a curse. And so I have a hard time believing that 216 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.480 people released from the curse would turn around and watch us living in the curse 217 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:56.519 all the time. Right, So the logic of it doesn't stand up for 218 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:03.120 me, But it does come from the very strong Catholic tradition of the saints 219 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.799 are the ones who are intermediaries for us, and they answer our prayers and 220 00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:09.120 take care for us and all those things. But I wasn't teaching that. 221 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.639 Bible teachers that Jesus is our intermediary, he's our intercessor. He's the one 222 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.080 that goes between he's the hero and doesn't reference the idea that saints take care 223 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:18.960 of us at all. But that's where that tradition would come from, would 224 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.440 be from that idea. So I don't see the logic of it, and 225 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.440 I don't see the biblical enforcement of it, but a reinforcement of it, 226 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:30.600 But I understand the desire for it unfortuately, yet you want your husband or 227 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:33.639 your wife who's you know? And by the way, I know people personally 228 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:39.960 who are refused to think that that's not true. I don't care what you 229 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.360 say. Sure, I'm leaving it open because I know my wife is looking 230 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.879 down on me right now, and there's no way that that's not true. 231 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:50.679 Like I know that there are people listening here that absolutely are thinking that. 232 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.720 And I'm going to say that again. You can work through the logic of 233 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.840 it which God gave to us, you can look at the different references to 234 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.080 it, but ultimately we just don't know. And h And by the way, 235 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.360 the verse that does say there's a cloud of witnesses. Therefore, because 236 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.399 therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witness as the 237 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:15.879 Bobble says, the word witnesses doesn't mean people who always are watching, right, 238 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.440 right, because you could witness to your friend, and that means you're 239 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.080 proclaiming the truth, well, testifying the same thing we're testifying of. It's 240 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:25.919 talking about the ones who came before us that testified of Christ, that's right, 241 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:30.919 and testified of faith because that whole phrase is in the context of the 242 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.799 Hall of Faith in the Bible. So it's these clouds of witnesses testifying to 243 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.919 the power of faith, right, And so a witness doesn't have to be 244 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.360 just watching in the moment, watching us. It's that they are witnessing, 245 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:47.279 they are testifying as a witness of the same things we're testifying of. That's 246 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:48.679 that's really what I made. The author of Hebrews is talking about, which 247 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.480 we'll get to. We'll get to in a few weeks. We'll be in 248 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:55.519 Hebrews. Yeah. And and by the way, the other thought is more 249 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.200 appealing that you just said, I understand the desire for it, Like it 250 00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:03.080 would be cooler if such a great cloud of witness is meant that there's a 251 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:07.240 stadium of people who've gone on before us. They're cheering us on, you 252 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:10.519 know, like like the Roman colisseum, right, right, and that that 253 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.039 may be not to over talk yet, but that may be a little bit 254 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:18.680 of an over emphasis of the importance of what happens on this planet and this 255 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.160 short little seventy years or eighty years, and it may be an under emphasis 256 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:26.000 of how incredible eternity is, right, right, So they're in eternity, 257 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:30.440 and I just I, yeah, it's a great question, Sarah, and 258 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.640 I understand the motive behind it, but I don't know that there's a lot 259 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.000 of reinforcement biblically for it. Yep, that's good. So there's the answer 260 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:40.240 one. Yeah, that's the best one. That's the best answer we have, 261 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.799 And that might be one of the hardest ones to answer that we've dealt 262 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:44.799 with so far. Yeah, I think so, because all the rest of 263 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:48.200 them you can just emphactically go, I don't know, right, and this 264 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.000 one is like ooh, yeah, but I mean the reasoning, you know, 265 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.880 working out the thoughts and the logic of it. Yeah, and the 266 00:17:55.960 --> 00:17:59.480 leanings, because that's all we have is leanings or leanings, and so you 267 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:03.480 know it it is important and to stack it up against what we do know, 268 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:07.640 which you know, we sort of referenced already. So this comes from 269 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.559 Angela V. And Angela V writes this question, why do we have to 270 00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:19.279 bear the burdens of Adam and Eve's sin when he God could have arranged things 271 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:22.599 so that each one of us had the chance to be born with a clean 272 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:30.480 slate and make our own mistakes free of a tainted universe. But first of 273 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:33.240 all, wow, what a question. Yeah, that's a thinker's question right 274 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.240 there. Yeah, for sure, you know. I mean, because by 275 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.119 the way that that question is seems to be born out of that's not fair. 276 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.720 Yeah yeah, yeah, right, Wow, It's like I inherited a 277 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.519 sin nature from Adam and Eve? How is that fair? Yeah? I 278 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.039 wish I could have taken my own shot at this sinlessness thing. Yeah yeah, 279 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.000 yeah, Well, one, I think we all would have failed, 280 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:59.640 you know, yeah on this because we have a free will, and free 281 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:06.880 wills tend to choose self. Yeah. Well no, true love cannot exist 282 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:10.680 without free will. So God could have made us like robots. He could 283 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:15.279 have created us to make us love him and respond, but he doesn't. 284 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:19.680 He decides to give us free will to choose good and evil, choose love 285 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:23.680 or not love. And it's because that is truly love, and we are 286 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:27.279 made and created to love and be a relationship with God. So this whole 287 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:32.200 human story is a love story. Yes, yeah, yeah, So anyway, 288 00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:34.599 go ahead and continue. Oh boy, So I get to answer this 289 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.799 one? Well, I mean, we could both answer it. I mean, 290 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:44.240 so one. I think on the surface, the best answer is the 291 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.240 Bible doesn't specifically say why. Sure, well, most of these questions are 292 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:51.319 I don't know, but there are a lot of Biblical principles that we can 293 00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:55.759 kind of extract from sure, And I think a couple of scientific things. 294 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:03.160 First off, the Romans Andans both talked about how like in Romans it says, 295 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:06.799 wherefore is by one man sinned into the world and death by sin? 296 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:11.400 So death passed upon all men for all of sin. That's the premise behind 297 00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:18.119 this question. Okay, so Adam sinned, and so then now we are 298 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:23.880 we're all sinners, We're all born with the sin nature. Right. So 299 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.799 then it goes on in Romans and says, so then because one person was 300 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.839 willing to die, he could die for all sin too, the second atom 301 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:37.200 or the second adom, which is Jesus. Yes, that's right. So 302 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.119 God, So we tend to think of ourselves only from the perspective of being 303 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.759 autonomous individuals, and yes we are, we have a free will, but 304 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:51.160 we are also part of humanity, and so we all emanate from Adam and 305 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:56.400 Eve. We all come from them. So things that are broken. So 306 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:59.680 this this really gets into biology a little bit, the whole concept of progeny, 307 00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:03.599 the idea of the sharing of DNA in order in order to you know, 308 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:10.400 make the next life. All of these things. And so these two 309 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:17.119 broken dying creatures, they were living creatures, then they were broken dying creatures. 310 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:21.039 They were made to live forever, the original Adam. Yes, yes, 311 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.640 they were made to live forever. Then they sinned, and the Bible 312 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.319 says, immediately they began to die. That that was the idea that you 313 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:32.079 will die in his physical spiritual death. So then at this point then they 314 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:37.200 had this broken genetics. I believe in the same way that the Bible says 315 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:42.359 that the whole earth and all of creation groans under the weight of the brokenness 316 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:48.359 of the universe. Everything broke, Nature broke, everything broke at that point. 317 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:52.960 And then you know, a man and woman comes together and they blend 318 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:56.680 DNA, and then that gets passed on, That gets passed on. So 319 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:03.200 in the process of progeny, the process of new life. We're also being 320 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:10.440 it's being handed off from already sinful creatures, broken creatures. And it's in 321 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.079 that context then that we are all related back to Adam with the we were 322 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:21.599 formed. We were created in with sin, right, not in sin, 323 00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:25.039 but with sin. But that's the bad news. The good news is then 324 00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:29.519 that also makes it possible with Jesus being the second atom, Jesus one sacrifice 325 00:22:29.559 --> 00:22:33.839 pays the price for all of humanity as well, which is a beautiful picture. 326 00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:37.440 And and it's it's really something that I don't think people think about, 327 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:44.839 but it's a great truth to understand that that, you know, generations pass 328 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:49.480 on the physical and so and then only that, but even our personalities are 329 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:53.720 very much like our traits, our traits, everything else. But there's also 330 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:57.680 a spiritual part of every human being. There's a soul and there's a spirit. 331 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:03.319 Yeah, and so it's important to recognize that it wasn't just a physical 332 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:07.799 death that was you know, that came from the curse of sin. It 333 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:11.359 was a spiritual death right and that and that that that they became sin full 334 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:15.720 and that that portion also gets passed down to us. Yeah, And I 335 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:19.519 don't understand it all. And you know, the Bible is not a science 336 00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:22.519 book. I believe it's accurate with what it says about scientific things. But 337 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:25.920 there's a lot of science in there, but it's not a science book, 338 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:27.880 so it doesn't really get into all these things. But I do know this 339 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.799 that you know it talks about how sin is passed down from generations generation, 340 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:36.200 that the father sins will be visited on the third and fourth generation. We 341 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:40.319 do know now here in the last twenty five years or so, as we've 342 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:44.319 really begun to dig dig into DNA, we do know that there are genetic 343 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:49.680 predispositions for alcoholism within certain families. Sure that some families, some people they 344 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.720 can touch alcoholics and not a problem. Other people they drink alcohol one time 345 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:56.599 and they're going to be alcoholics or whatever. That We do know that there 346 00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:03.359 are genetic predispositions for anger. We know that there are genetic predispositions for aggression. 347 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.880 We know that there is genetic predispositions for intelligence and lack thereof. We 348 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:15.079 know that there's a genetic predisposition for so many things that wind up being negatives 349 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:19.200 in our life. And that comes because now God did not create us that 350 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:26.559 way sin broke us, and those broken pieces then get passed on through Adam's 351 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:33.039 children. That's just what happens. So God didn't create you sinful. God 352 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:37.720 created your parents perfect, you know in Adam and Eve, and then with 353 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.759 Adam and Eve being broken, all of their progeny is broken and only Jesus 354 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:47.160 can fix it. You know that movie came to mind. Do you remember 355 00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.359 the Emperor's New Groove? Yes, you called Adam and of our parents. 356 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:56.559 Remember that scene where she goes great great great great great great great aunt. 357 00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:59.599 Remember that no twice removed. You don't remember that? No? Okay, 358 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.279 I'm bout myself. That's pretty it's pretty sophisticated. Though it sounds like yeah, 359 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:07.039 yeah, yeah, well New Groove is great, so so so yeah, 360 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.839 they are our parents a long time ago. And so the question then 361 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:17.680 is not just practical, but also there's a second side of that question, 362 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:22.440 which is couldn't God have done that? Right? So, if God decided 363 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.640 to make every individual born with a clean slate according to this question, right, 364 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:30.200 and maybe maybe things aren't passed down and we all start brand new. 365 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:33.480 If life began with storks dropping babies off at houses, yes, right, 366 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:41.279 where we weren't physically connected, genetically connected to other humans, and every every 367 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:48.599 parent relationship was just an adoptive relationship where each each person is spontaneously created in 368 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:52.680 some way. Yeah, that's not what he did. That's not what he 369 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.759 did. And if he did do that, my feeling is all of us 370 00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:00.680 would fail anyway, absolutely, because the Bible tells us that no person can 371 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:04.680 keep all of the law. That's right, because God is sinless and he 372 00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:12.039 is perfect and and our nature is not that way. I think so. 373 00:26:12.039 --> 00:26:18.079 So the official answer would be, I'm not sure that the Bible actually says 374 00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:23.039 specifically why. He doesn't always say why. He just says what most of 375 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:27.039 the time. That's right, that's what it does. But I think that 376 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:30.000 this is a really great thinking question. I think that, Angela, it 377 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:34.119 really shows kind of a depth of thought in asking it. And I'll be 378 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:37.839 honest with you, Angela, I've asked those same kind of questions before too. 379 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:40.079 Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I think it's a really good, 380 00:26:41.559 --> 00:26:45.559 really good way of looking at it. The issue would be this, it's 381 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:49.759 okay that God didn't do it that way, because if we see this as 382 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:55.400 a as entirely a love story, then I mean This is that typical epic 383 00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.079 story that we tell over and over and over again in our movies. You're 384 00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:00.880 a movie buff in our movies, over and over and over again. Some 385 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.680 of the greatest movies, some of the greatest dramas, the best stories throughout 386 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:08.359 human history are always, you know, there's the beloved, and the beloved 387 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:12.279 gets captured away by the evil one or by the dragon, is kidnapped, 388 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:18.200 is in danger, maybe even tempted to give in to this evil you know, 389 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:22.079 dragon or whatever. And then the hero comes and that great peril to 390 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.119 himself, willing to sacrifice everything, comes and rescues his beloved and maybe even 391 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:30.039 has to die in order to set her free and to defeat the evil one. 392 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.279 We tell that story over and over and over again, just with different 393 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:38.279 different you know, characters or whatever. But we've been telling that story for 394 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.720 thousands of years. And the reason is, I think, deep down is 395 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:44.480 said, we know that is the story of humanity, right, that really 396 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.440 is right? And so there's some value I think in saying, Okay, 397 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.880 this is the way God chose, and I'm in that system. God's not 398 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:56.440 unfair. God only always does good, and he delights in the love story. 399 00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.799 He's telling. And the good news is you have the ability and the 400 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.319 autonomy to be able to choose love or choose yourself. That's it right, 401 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:10.440 And by by by turning to the move of the Holy Spirit, he draws 402 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:14.119 you to the Father. Right. The work of Jesus on the cross pays 403 00:28:14.119 --> 00:28:18.599 the price. But there is a moment when you are confronted with your sin, 404 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:22.000 and either you repent and turn to Christ and experience the love of Christ 405 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.400 through forgiveness of sins, or you don't. And that is the that's the 406 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.279 story of humanity, and that's the beautiful story that he's telling.