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I think it's so strange, going back to my RSS thing,

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how do you have a blog and not have an RSS feed?

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Like Almost every blog platform just natively supports that.

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You don't even have to ask.

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Just boom, it's there.

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Maybe this blog is daring to be different.

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It is using a me.

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Isn't that like an Apple thing?

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I think so.

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Okay, so maybe it's just that Apple sucks.

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Hello, alleged human, and welcome to the Chaos Lover Podcast.

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My name is Ned, and I'm definitely not a robot.

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I'm a real human person who is not terrified of spiders.

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Why would you, why would you even bring that up?

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I don't, I don't mind walking through cobwebs and it definitely

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does not fill me with dread to see something with eight legs.

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I have not refused to see the Black Widow movie simply because of the name.

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That would be silly.

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With me is Chris, who's also here.

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Hi Chris.

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I had a spider appear completely out of nowhere

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on the ceiling in the shower a few days ago.

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It's hard to think of a worse possible time for a spider to appear.

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This is how you do it.

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If you really want to end somebody, you put a spider on the ceiling

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in the shower because nothing good can come from that scenario.

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I mean, I know you screamed.

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I'm just wondering what you did next.

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Well, I definitely don't have one of those removable showerhead things.

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So I definitely didn't very carefully take that out of the holster and spray

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the everliving shit out of the ceiling, which may or may not be waterproof.

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Oh Chris, have you never heard the song The Itsy Bitsy Spider?

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It's gonna fucking come back.

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That's just the nature of things.

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Well, I know that now.

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Oh, well, alright.

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We should probably get this episode done before

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it comes along and bites you and ends you.

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Or stabs me.

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It's 2024, they're all armed.

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Spiders, yes.

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Somehow it's our fault, too.

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So anyway, let's talk about The recent release of the

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Amazon story, where they said that they were 100 percent

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renewable, and that story might have been written by AI.

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When you say might

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I say that because, according to everyone

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except Amazon, they're not even close to 100%.

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You get it?

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Because Amazon's wrong and like AI is wrong a lot.

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Do you get it?

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Nope.

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Do you get it?

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Fine.

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Fine,

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don't be fun.

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I won't.

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Last week, Amazon announced something pretty surprising.

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They claimed that they hit their goal of being 100 percent renewable, meaning

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that all of their places of operation are running on renewable energy.

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They hit their goal of being 100 percent renewable this year,

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which is seven years earlier than their previously stated goal.

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And we're talking about Amazon, the whole company here, not just AWS.

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Correct.

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Okay.

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Obviously the data centers play a huge part in it,

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but it's the entire corporate entity that is Amazon.

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Okay.

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So this is a strange thing to announce and a strange time to have

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announced it, because I don't know if you know this, but Amazon's renewable

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energy score is not exactly the top hit on Google News these days.

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Other shit is going on, I guess is my point.

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A couple things, yeah.

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But announce it, they did.

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And it likely would have come and gone with little

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fanfare, except for one tiny little problem.

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A group of people that actually work at Amazon called Bullshit.

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Oh.

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Like, real loud, too.

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Were they immediately and summarily fired?

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No, they can't do it, and you'll see why in a minute.

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Interesting, okay.

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The Amazon Employees for Climate Justice, a group started based

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on a shareholder resolution back in 2018, has a simple goal.

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To bring together Amazonians, and yes, that's what they call themselves.

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Yes.

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But bringing them together and encourage

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Amazon to do more on the issue of climate.

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Historically, Amazon has not been all that interested in climate.

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After all, this is America.

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How does a healthy planet make line go up?

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Exactly.

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It does not.

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So, this group existing and trying to encourage

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policy is actually probably pretty important.

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Back in 2023, they threatened a walkout because of Amazon's,

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quote, lack of meaningful progress on its climate pledge.

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And things like climate pledges, companies trying to become

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sustainable, well, All of this absolutely matters going forward.

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While data centers have historically been a

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smaller energy hog than many people think.

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I

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mean, computer systems in general over our lifetimes have been doing

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nothing but getting smaller and getting less greedy when it comes to power.

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This is still a huge growing segment of the market and the

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amount of power that they're going to take is going to change.

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Recently we've seen specific cases like crypto, Where mining

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takes up so much of a local utilities output that the rest

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of the populace suffers, and it is likely that AI is driving

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data center growth that is going to do something very similar.

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But how significant would it be?

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Well, the International Energy Agency put out a report that estimates

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that by 2026, which if you're doing the math at home is five years from

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now, power consumption by data centers could double what it was in 2022.

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Wow.

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Four years, double the amount of power.

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So if you want to see the actual numbers, that is 460

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terawatt hours up to more than 1000 terawatt hours.

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Okay.

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I'm not an electrician, but I have been electrocuted before.

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So I feel qualified in saying that that is an insane amount of energy.

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We're going to have to find sustainable ways to generate it because

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no matter what Exxon says, eventually we're going to run out of oil.

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But we will get to that.

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Before we get to the next thing, I want to

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ask, what's your, I was electrocuted story?

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Because I feel like everybody who's been

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electrocuted has at least one good story about it.

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Oh, so, you know, back in the day when I actually did things.

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In the world, rehabbing houses and the

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like, I would replace outlets all the time.

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I got to be kind of automatic about it to the point that for a long period

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of time there, I would replace an outlet without turning off the power.

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That's a choice.

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I don't recommend that model

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just as like a fun fact for the, for the audience.

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Okay.

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I

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wonder if I can still do it.

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I will be right back.

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I also was electrocuted once and it was in a different set of circumstances.

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I had trash picked a lamp because I was a teenager and that's how I got things.

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And unbeknownst to me, but knownst to possibly the

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previous owner, the hot wire on the Inside of the lamp

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had started touching the outside brass cup of the lamp.

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Cool.

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I went to go turn on said lamp and I was standing barefoot in the basement

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turning on the lamp and boy did the electricity find a way to go to ground.

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So that was super fun.

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You recommend that everybody should try it.

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Uh, fortunately I was not gripping the lamp in any way.

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So it just like threw my arm backwards, but that

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could have potentially been much, much worse.

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Moving on.

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Electricity is a powerful thing.

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Don't mess with it, especially on the outside of your house.

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Indeed.

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Before we go any further, I want to make it clear that

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this is not just intended to be a shit on Amazon show.

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Tempting, but no.

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Plenty of companies follow this exact same playbook.

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Amazon is high on commitments and pledges, not so high on results.

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It is particularly telling that they don't show up in any of the

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lists that highlight well performing sustainable companies, such as

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Dow Jones Sustainability Sustainability, you have words, use them.

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Dow Jones Sustainability Index, Bloomberg's ESG disclosure

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scores, the Corporate Knight's Global 100, and so on.

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So let's just think about this as technology, but electricity,

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but in general, using the Amazon story as a metaphor.

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This is the latest thing, but everybody does it.

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So anyway, before we go further, let's talk about what

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does sustainability actually mean in the modern context?

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Okay.

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So first off there have been environmentalists complaining about

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waste, energy waste, any type of waste that you can think of.

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pollution, etc.

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since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution.

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In fact, I have no doubt that it goes way further back than that.

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I am sure that there was some Neanderthal who was upset about moving the sharp

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rocks out of the walking path because it upset the natural order of things.

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I'm certain of that, yes.

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For our purposes, we're going to start with the real serious

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renewable energy movement that began with the concept of peak oil.

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Now there was also an oil crisis in the 70s that got everybody

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excited, but we're going to skip that too in the interest of time.

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The concept of peak oil is pretty simple.

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Theory goes that there is a finite amount of oil in the world.

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Can't make more.

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Therefore, eventually, we're going to hit a point

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where it is harder to get more of it year after year.

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So if you think about this in terms of supply and demand,

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it's not that much different than the sad tale of lobsters.

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Back in the 1700s, you could literally just go to the shore and pick

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up a lobster off the beach in Maine and take it home for dinner.

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There are tons of stories in people's journals of them doing exactly that.

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Right, because lobster was considered a garbage food.

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It

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was peasant food at the time because it was so easy to get.

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But as we took and took and took, as humans are

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wont to do, it became harder to get lobsters.

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And now they're 25 a pound, right?

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So peak oil is exactly that, except the oil doesn't procreate.

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I mean, not on any kind of realistic timescale.

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I guess that's true.

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We could start making oil now and start to

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reap the benefits in several million years.

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Yeah, like 65.

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I'm going to put in some, some long puts on that, I think.

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Okay, you do that.

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This is not investment advice.

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Some futures trading.

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When the story came out about Peak Oil, or when the report came

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out, the date that was given was quote, between 1965 and 1970.

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This report was written in the late 50s.

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Irrespective of how the oil and gas industry responded to this

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threat, think fracking, coal mining, and writing shady deals with

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third world countries to ruin their countries in the name of economic

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profit, the seed was sown in the environmental movement to do

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something to get energy that didn't involve burning natural resources.

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Now again, like I said, this is not a concept

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that just snapped into existence in the 1970s.

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There have been ways to get power that were renewable long before this.

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For example, the first hydroelectric power plant was built in the 1880s.

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Oh yeah, that was like 10 minutes after power was invented.

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Yeah.

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Super cool.

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We went to Niagara a few weeks ago and on the Canada

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side, like you do, 'cause that's the good side.

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And we did a tour of the now retired power plant that used to be hooked up.

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To Niagara Falls, and it was the construction for it started in the

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early 1900s, and it was one of the biggest hydroelectric projects of its

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time, and they had to invent all kinds of new technologies in order to

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harness the power of the falls and also generate the power consistently.

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And this was before they had standards like

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the frequency at which power was generated.

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That had not been standardized yet.

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So a lot of standards and technologies were born over that time, but

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people don't realize how long hydroelectric power has been around.

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It's been a while.

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And the thing about hydroelectric is it works super well.

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It is highly reliable.

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You get all kinds of power out of it and the

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eventual return on investment is enormous.

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There is, however, that pesky problem of needing a river.

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Yes.

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But not only needing a river, you need a river that is stable.

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Cause I don't know if people know this,

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but not all rivers stay in the same place.

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Sometimes rivers move.

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To the hilarity and consternation of historians worldwide.

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You also need a river that is fast flowing enough to

252
00:13:22,155 --> 00:13:24,525
spin turbines to the level that makes it worth it.

253
00:13:25,144 --> 00:13:27,435
And also, remember the river!

254
00:13:28,674 --> 00:13:31,034
Hydroelectric dams are engineering marvels

255
00:13:31,045 --> 00:13:33,155
that are astonishingly expensive to build.

256
00:13:33,540 --> 00:13:35,400
Making it rather tough to scale.

257
00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:40,100
And then finally, there are in fact, environmental and social considerations

258
00:13:40,100 --> 00:13:44,020
that come with literally rewriting the face of the earth with concrete.

259
00:13:44,859 --> 00:13:47,770
So let's just say there are pros and cons.

260
00:13:49,690 --> 00:13:53,000
Another type of energy source that is cool, or

261
00:13:53,010 --> 00:13:57,700
hot, and is older than you think, is geothermal.

262
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,239
So this is one that people have probably, like, they've heard the

263
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:06,259
words, but don't really know what it means or why or how it works.

264
00:14:07,019 --> 00:14:08,639
And I'm not going to go into it too deeply, but

265
00:14:08,649 --> 00:14:11,649
basically, you find a place in the earth that's super hot.

266
00:14:12,299 --> 00:14:13,209
Run a pipe through it.

267
00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:15,069
Run water through the pipe.

268
00:14:16,035 --> 00:14:17,165
Cold water gets hot.

269
00:14:17,595 --> 00:14:19,135
Hot water turns into steam.

270
00:14:19,345 --> 00:14:20,495
Steam turns to turbine.

271
00:14:20,615 --> 00:14:21,875
Turbine makes electricity.

272
00:14:22,295 --> 00:14:22,815
Magic.

273
00:14:24,185 --> 00:14:26,795
These things have the advantage of being consistent

274
00:14:27,235 --> 00:14:31,725
because they come from the inside of the freaking earth.

275
00:14:34,035 --> 00:14:37,184
And that thing is going to be pretty fiery for the next,

276
00:14:37,964 --> 00:14:40,014
I forgot, I meant to look this up but I'm winging it

277
00:14:40,014 --> 00:14:40,314
here,

278
00:14:40,565 --> 00:14:41,625
4 billion years?

279
00:14:42,034 --> 00:14:42,714
Do we have 4 billion?

280
00:14:42,714 --> 00:14:43,065
Something like

281
00:14:43,065 --> 00:14:43,375
that.

282
00:14:43,734 --> 00:14:45,905
The only reason I know is because my children have asked

283
00:14:45,905 --> 00:14:49,155
me several times, like, is the sun going to explode?

284
00:14:49,175 --> 00:14:50,804
And I was like, well, it's going to become a red giant.

285
00:14:50,815 --> 00:14:51,954
And they're like, Oh no!

286
00:14:51,954 --> 00:14:53,284
And I'm like, it's 4 billion years.

287
00:14:53,565 --> 00:14:54,264
No, no, no.

288
00:14:54,264 --> 00:14:55,335
Oh, you have the timeline wrong.

289
00:14:55,344 --> 00:14:58,294
No, the Earth is going to explode, or no, the

290
00:14:58,294 --> 00:15:00,114
Earth is going to cool before the sun explodes.

291
00:15:00,114 --> 00:15:01,905
By the time the sun explodes, the Earth is going to be dead.

292
00:15:02,605 --> 00:15:06,064
Still, it's not an immediate going concern.

293
00:15:07,345 --> 00:15:11,615
And the other fun thing is we have been doing geothermal heating since.

294
00:15:12,175 --> 00:15:13,415
Basically prehistory.

295
00:15:13,474 --> 00:15:19,685
The oldest existing geothermal thing that we know of that still exists in

296
00:15:19,685 --> 00:15:27,084
the world is a heated pool, basically, in China that is dated to 300 BCE.

297
00:15:27,545 --> 00:15:28,075
Alright.

298
00:15:28,165 --> 00:15:29,775
So yeah, this one goes back a little bit.

299
00:15:30,085 --> 00:15:30,815
Just a tad.

300
00:15:31,235 --> 00:15:32,985
Now, it's got a couple of other downsides to it.

301
00:15:32,995 --> 00:15:35,715
It is super consistent, but the amount of power you get out

302
00:15:35,715 --> 00:15:38,495
of it is not nearly as high as some of these other ones.

303
00:15:39,064 --> 00:15:41,145
And also, it's not everywhere on Earth

304
00:15:41,345 --> 00:15:44,905
that you can get the heat from geothermal.

305
00:15:44,944 --> 00:15:49,185
You've got to find these pockets where the molten core of the Earth opens up.

306
00:15:49,655 --> 00:15:51,615
Because what we're not doing is drilling, you

307
00:15:51,615 --> 00:15:55,245
know, 500 miles into the core to get geothermal.

308
00:15:55,654 --> 00:15:56,804
That's just not practical.

309
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,430
These things have been around, but with the concept of an

310
00:16:01,439 --> 00:16:04,210
oil less world floating around in the ether, scientists

311
00:16:04,210 --> 00:16:07,989
started working more seriously on flexible alternatives.

312
00:16:08,570 --> 00:16:10,590
And I bet you can guess what they came up with.

313
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:12,329
Well, I can think of one.

314
00:16:12,579 --> 00:16:16,120
It's above me right now, and it's making everything intolerable.

315
00:16:17,559 --> 00:16:18,179
Your children?

316
00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:20,999
Oh, yeah, that too.

317
00:16:22,219 --> 00:16:25,469
I'm talking about solar power and wind power.

318
00:16:26,145 --> 00:16:27,145
Okay.

319
00:16:27,765 --> 00:16:31,334
Solar panels have often been derided for being ugly and not

320
00:16:31,344 --> 00:16:35,885
working, which for a lot of their history was actually kind of fair.

321
00:16:36,815 --> 00:16:38,835
It was an evolving technology.

322
00:16:39,545 --> 00:16:41,114
But modern panels are different.

323
00:16:41,955 --> 00:16:45,864
They are highly effective, they last a long time, they're getting smaller

324
00:16:46,125 --> 00:16:50,075
and more flexible, both literally and in terms of where you can install them.

325
00:16:51,025 --> 00:16:53,145
And the price to create them and the energy

326
00:16:53,145 --> 00:16:55,105
you get back from them is just insane.

327
00:16:55,395 --> 00:16:56,655
Astonishing right now.

328
00:16:57,755 --> 00:17:01,505
According to the Carbon Disclosure Project, the cost of electricity

329
00:17:01,505 --> 00:17:07,224
from utility scale solar arrays fell 85 percent between 2010 and

330
00:17:07,224 --> 00:17:13,905
2020, making it cheaper than standard fossil fuel based power plants.

331
00:17:14,379 --> 00:17:16,150
Didn't see that shit coming, did you, Margaret?

332
00:17:16,589 --> 00:17:17,000
Indeed.

333
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:17,369
No

334
00:17:18,089 --> 00:17:22,189
solar on your house is still a good idea and it is a workable

335
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,690
plan, but solar as a utility, particularly in places that

336
00:17:27,690 --> 00:17:30,659
get the right amount of sun, which if you know about.

337
00:17:31,005 --> 00:17:35,825
The sun is basically everywhere is a great idea.

338
00:17:35,965 --> 00:17:38,535
Yeah, I mean, there are some caveats to that, depending on

339
00:17:38,535 --> 00:17:42,395
house is situated, how much sun it will actually gather.

340
00:17:42,395 --> 00:17:44,885
And of course, if you have trees around those

341
00:17:45,174 --> 00:17:47,425
become a detriment as opposed to a bonus.

342
00:17:47,685 --> 00:17:50,505
I know this because we tried to get solar panels for my house.

343
00:17:51,035 --> 00:17:51,615
And.

344
00:17:51,870 --> 00:17:56,890
It would have produced more energy than we use for especially

345
00:17:56,890 --> 00:18:00,680
the summer months, but the cost of installing the panels and the

346
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,230
additional work would have required like a 30 year payback period.

347
00:18:06,260 --> 00:18:09,429
That will change as solar panels become more

348
00:18:09,470 --> 00:18:11,840
efficient and the price continues to drop.

349
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,560
So I'm just going to reevaluate in like 4 or 5 years, and I bet at that point

350
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,439
the break even will have dropped from 30 years to something like 15 or 10.

351
00:18:19,919 --> 00:18:22,090
Yeah, I mean, honestly, as fast as this stuff is

352
00:18:22,310 --> 00:18:24,409
evolving, you might want to check this year and just

353
00:18:24,409 --> 00:18:28,220
see, I'm, I don't feel like I'm exaggerating about this.

354
00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:31,179
And the other thing is when it comes to house power.

355
00:18:31,820 --> 00:18:34,820
You're talking about re architecting a house that already existed.

356
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,610
Hypothetically, if you were building new and you planned

357
00:18:38,620 --> 00:18:41,030
for solar, you would have had a very different outcome.

358
00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:42,190
Yes.

359
00:18:42,210 --> 00:18:46,379
If, if I wasn't retrofitting an existing house and I was building a

360
00:18:46,379 --> 00:18:50,209
new one with this in mind, I would have oriented the house a little bit

361
00:18:50,209 --> 00:18:53,660
different, designed, you know, the, the roofs a little bit different.

362
00:18:53,970 --> 00:18:56,300
And another really interesting thing is in

363
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:59,680
addition to panels, there are now solar roof tiles.

364
00:19:00,145 --> 00:19:02,315
that look like regular roof tiles.

365
00:19:02,555 --> 00:19:03,395
They are so cool.

366
00:19:03,405 --> 00:19:03,585
But

367
00:19:03,585 --> 00:19:06,925
they're actually, you know, solar, mini solar panels, essentially.

368
00:19:07,395 --> 00:19:09,964
They are not nearly as efficient as traditional

369
00:19:09,964 --> 00:19:12,244
solar panels, but they look a lot nicer.

370
00:19:12,364 --> 00:19:14,984
They don't look like an obnoxious panel sticking up off your roof.

371
00:19:15,045 --> 00:19:15,634
Exactly.

372
00:19:15,634 --> 00:19:18,374
So long term that might actually end up being the

373
00:19:18,384 --> 00:19:21,654
better solution once the efficiency raises on those.

374
00:19:22,934 --> 00:19:24,424
So there's a lot you can do with solar.

375
00:19:24,665 --> 00:19:28,215
The next one that came around and we already told,

376
00:19:28,235 --> 00:19:30,985
I'm not sure why I'm slow playing it, is wind power.

377
00:19:32,334 --> 00:19:35,804
Their progress in terms of output, if not 100 percent

378
00:19:35,804 --> 00:19:39,475
matching solar, at least kept pace in terms of improvements.

379
00:19:40,235 --> 00:19:44,674
It was 2015 when wind energy was considered competitive

380
00:19:44,674 --> 00:19:48,225
with fossil fuels based on power plants in many regions.

381
00:19:48,764 --> 00:19:51,574
Now again, you've got to have the right kind of wind.

382
00:19:51,735 --> 00:19:54,185
So it's not every single place on earth.

383
00:19:55,175 --> 00:19:57,325
But where it works, it works super well.

384
00:19:57,365 --> 00:19:59,535
And I cannot believe I have to say this out loud.

385
00:20:01,175 --> 00:20:05,815
Turbines don't kill birds, don't kill whales, and they don't change the tides.

386
00:20:05,865 --> 00:20:06,875
My God, people.

387
00:20:07,655 --> 00:20:08,805
How would that even happen?

388
00:20:10,075 --> 00:20:13,565
I mean, some birds are killed by turbines.

389
00:20:13,574 --> 00:20:14,885
Some birds are idiots.

390
00:20:15,264 --> 00:20:15,814
But,

391
00:20:15,965 --> 00:20:19,524
I have a window that killed a bird two weeks ago, should we ban windows?

392
00:20:19,804 --> 00:20:22,955
If you're concerned about birds, then you should ban cats, because

393
00:20:22,965 --> 00:20:27,725
holy shit, just little murder death machines is what they are.

394
00:20:28,264 --> 00:20:33,474
Now, to be fair, there are actually a lot more energy sources out

395
00:20:33,474 --> 00:20:36,354
there that are renewable that have promise, but I'm going to stop

396
00:20:36,364 --> 00:20:39,435
with these two, because A, they're the most practical for large

397
00:20:39,435 --> 00:20:42,144
scale energy generation, and B, we don't have that much time.

398
00:20:42,834 --> 00:20:46,784
Although, if you're interested in renewable energy and like awesome

399
00:20:46,794 --> 00:20:51,205
things, I highly encourage you to google Desert Salt Laser Energy Plant.

400
00:20:52,075 --> 00:20:54,675
I will say no more, I just want you to know that I want

401
00:20:54,675 --> 00:20:58,004
this idea to work out so bad because it is in fact awesome.

402
00:21:01,354 --> 00:21:03,155
You might be thinking, what in the hell does this

403
00:21:03,165 --> 00:21:04,945
have to do with anything that we started with?

404
00:21:05,815 --> 00:21:07,265
It seems like an easy enough thing.

405
00:21:07,385 --> 00:21:10,535
Amazon says they're using 100 percent renewables, so clearly.

406
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,990
They're using 100 percent energy places from places like

407
00:21:13,990 --> 00:21:16,970
hydroelectric, solar, wind, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

408
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:19,940
And that's just so very cute.

409
00:21:21,415 --> 00:21:24,165
Because this is America, and we've found ways to make

410
00:21:24,165 --> 00:21:27,315
this whole enterprise so much more complicated than that.

411
00:21:29,585 --> 00:21:33,144
Back in the late 90s, there was a push to get renewable energy off the ground.

412
00:21:33,485 --> 00:21:35,155
There were even tax breaks involved.

413
00:21:35,634 --> 00:21:36,875
In fact, they still exist.

414
00:21:36,974 --> 00:21:38,654
If you replace your windows or your large

415
00:21:38,654 --> 00:21:40,994
appliances, you might even still be able to apply for

416
00:21:40,995 --> 00:21:42,074
them.

417
00:21:42,074 --> 00:21:44,745
On the large scale, though, there was a new program

418
00:21:44,745 --> 00:21:48,105
called Renewable Energy Certificates, or RECs.

419
00:21:48,645 --> 00:21:50,754
That acronym, as you'll see, is ironic.

420
00:21:52,584 --> 00:21:55,274
Created by the EPA, the idea here was simple.

421
00:21:56,125 --> 00:21:58,615
Every time a megawatt hour of energy is generated

422
00:21:58,615 --> 00:22:01,105
from a renewable source, a REC is created.

423
00:22:01,655 --> 00:22:05,654
These can then be sold on the market and proudly be displayed by

424
00:22:05,685 --> 00:22:08,924
other companies as though they were using that energy themselves.

425
00:22:09,935 --> 00:22:12,014
This is supposed to have two benefits.

426
00:22:13,065 --> 00:22:17,264
One, the income encourages the building of more renewable energy plants.

427
00:22:17,875 --> 00:22:21,665
Two, companies that have an incentive to buy them to advertise that

428
00:22:21,665 --> 00:22:24,664
they're at least making an honest effort to support renewables.

429
00:22:25,734 --> 00:22:26,585
This makes sense.

430
00:22:27,375 --> 00:22:32,219
After all, we have a huge amount of fossil fuel creating power plants.

431
00:22:32,909 --> 00:22:35,760
That eventually will be replaced, but they exist right now.

432
00:22:36,949 --> 00:22:40,539
Any energy that's created by a renewable plant gets injected into the grid.

433
00:22:40,949 --> 00:22:43,549
And you just, there's no way to tell the difference

434
00:22:43,599 --> 00:22:46,029
between energy created by solar and by coal.

435
00:22:46,659 --> 00:22:49,189
Once it's in the grid, it's in the grid, right?

436
00:22:49,199 --> 00:22:51,889
There's no such thing as like organic volts or anything.

437
00:22:52,639 --> 00:22:55,259
You can't check it for like, it's chi.

438
00:22:57,069 --> 00:22:57,799
Maybe you can't.

439
00:22:58,209 --> 00:23:01,189
Plus, like I said, it takes time for these plants to get built.

440
00:23:01,610 --> 00:23:03,199
And what are you gonna do If you own a

441
00:23:03,199 --> 00:23:05,090
business that's like in the middle of the city?

442
00:23:05,629 --> 00:23:08,000
You can't exactly plant a wind farm on Broad Street.

443
00:23:08,740 --> 00:23:13,810
Although I asked AI to do it, and it is, uh, it, it, I kind of want us to do it.

444
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:15,310
It looks pretty amazing.

445
00:23:15,310 --> 00:23:16,720
I would not be mad about this.

446
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:19,950
, 
what's the problem?

447
00:23:19,950 --> 00:23:24,330
The problem, according to Amazon Climate Justice Group, is

448
00:23:24,330 --> 00:23:27,750
that Amazon is being willfully disingenuous about saying

449
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:30,660
where the power comes from for their data centers and offices.

450
00:23:31,615 --> 00:23:34,855
How, they argue, does building a data center in Virginia,

451
00:23:34,865 --> 00:23:39,725
which is 100 percent powered by fossil fuels, buying RECs from

452
00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,334
California, where renewable energy is already aplenty, how

453
00:23:43,335 --> 00:23:45,925
does that benefit the environment, particularly in Virginia?

454
00:23:46,345 --> 00:23:46,435
Ew.

455
00:23:47,475 --> 00:23:48,395
The answer is that it doesn't.

456
00:23:49,255 --> 00:23:51,725
Those credits don't encourage Virginia to do anything.

457
00:23:52,485 --> 00:23:55,135
In fact, there are real questions as to whether or not some of

458
00:23:55,135 --> 00:23:58,505
these RECs ever get used to generate any renewable energy at all.

459
00:23:58,985 --> 00:24:02,545
Because it turns out, you don't need a

460
00:24:02,545 --> 00:24:05,635
plant to generate the energy to buy a REC.

461
00:24:06,594 --> 00:24:09,665
There's a thing called an unbundled REC, which

462
00:24:09,665 --> 00:24:12,055
is like a credit to the future to be used later.

463
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,270
This is like buying coupons to buy beer at a fair, and then trying to take

464
00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:21,900
them to a different fair, and they're like, we don't have that coupon.

465
00:24:22,750 --> 00:24:23,780
What are you talking about?

466
00:24:24,039 --> 00:24:26,080
Go back to your house, crazy sad man.

467
00:24:26,790 --> 00:24:28,139
This is getting very specific.

468
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:30,409
I don't know what you could possibly mean.

469
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,730
So, Yeah, they're called unbundled RECs, and my question is why?

470
00:24:35,470 --> 00:24:37,659
Why is such a thing even part of this program?

471
00:24:38,290 --> 00:24:40,379
And the answer is, I don't know.

472
00:24:41,270 --> 00:24:43,620
I read a couple of explanations, none of them felt great.

473
00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:47,180
Lobbying from the fossil fuel companies?

474
00:24:48,010 --> 00:24:49,909
It's possible, because this is what critics

475
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:51,739
of the REC program call greenwashing.

476
00:24:52,210 --> 00:24:55,750
The act of making something look more environmentally friendly than it is.

477
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,690
So, down to brass tacks.

478
00:24:59,129 --> 00:25:03,139
According to the report, instead of the 100 percent

479
00:25:03,139 --> 00:25:05,760
renewables that Amazon claims that they use.

480
00:25:06,345 --> 00:25:11,804
Only around 22 percent of energy actually did come from renewable sources.

481
00:25:12,565 --> 00:25:16,264
Now, if you're a math major, you'll realize that 22 is less than 100.

482
00:25:16,654 --> 00:25:17,695
A little bit.

483
00:25:18,295 --> 00:25:20,635
Oh, and there was this other claim that the group

484
00:25:20,644 --> 00:25:23,045
made that's going to be harder for Amazon to refute.

485
00:25:24,165 --> 00:25:27,095
Amazon deliveries are still largely done

486
00:25:27,095 --> 00:25:29,525
by diesel trucks crisscrossing the globe.

487
00:25:30,465 --> 00:25:35,344
How can you do that and still say 100 percent renewable?

488
00:25:35,345 --> 00:25:39,665
I mean, I understand the theory behind it was,

489
00:25:39,835 --> 00:25:42,735
how do we get money for these renewable energy?

490
00:25:43,310 --> 00:25:46,379
sources, and the idea was to build this credit.

491
00:25:46,399 --> 00:25:50,020
So even if you can't consume it, you can support it by buying the credits.

492
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:52,950
There's a certain tipping point at which that doesn't really

493
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:56,409
help anymore, and you just need to start using the stick.

494
00:25:56,410 --> 00:26:00,990
I mean, like, if you use non renewable energy sources,

495
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,810
we're going to charge a tax, or something along those lines.

496
00:26:05,254 --> 00:26:08,895
to push people to using more renewable energy sources, and you have to

497
00:26:08,895 --> 00:26:13,814
fund renewable energy sources close to the places that want to consume it.

498
00:26:15,614 --> 00:26:19,435
That last point is super important, because the further that

499
00:26:19,474 --> 00:26:23,834
energy has to be transferred, the less effective that plant is.

500
00:26:23,974 --> 00:26:26,155
You lose electricity the longer the wire is.

501
00:26:26,815 --> 00:26:26,835
If

502
00:26:26,985 --> 00:26:30,415
you don't believe me, go get a 100 foot extension

503
00:26:30,415 --> 00:26:33,045
cord and plug in something that pulls a lot of juice.

504
00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:35,440
And then watch your house burn down.

505
00:26:37,639 --> 00:26:41,820
Still, in terms of Amazon, there actually is hope.

506
00:26:42,370 --> 00:26:45,440
I'm going to look on the bright side and just say, perhaps this

507
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:51,879
announcement was overenthusiastic, maybe premature, but maybe

508
00:26:51,940 --> 00:26:56,929
it also signals an internal change or increased seriousness.

509
00:26:58,175 --> 00:27:00,034
A couple things came out this year that are worth noting.

510
00:27:00,545 --> 00:27:04,605
Amazon announced, I think recently, I forget when because

511
00:27:04,605 --> 00:27:07,405
I didn't put it in the script because I'm a moron.

512
00:27:08,295 --> 00:27:11,674
Amazon announced at some point that they had put in

513
00:27:11,674 --> 00:27:17,074
an order for 100, 000 electric vans from Rivian to

514
00:27:17,074 --> 00:27:20,285
swap out last mile vehicles to something sustainable.

515
00:27:20,975 --> 00:27:23,305
Now that is not the 18 wheelers that go

516
00:27:23,315 --> 00:27:25,065
across the country, but it's still a big deal.

517
00:27:26,594 --> 00:27:30,025
And back in May, they announced a new data center plan in

518
00:27:30,025 --> 00:27:33,375
Mississippi that included a deal with a local utility company

519
00:27:33,405 --> 00:27:37,625
for 650 megawatts of renewable energy to power the campus.

520
00:27:38,055 --> 00:27:39,455
Exactly what we just talked about.

521
00:27:40,985 --> 00:27:45,445
According to the Amazon press release, this will quote, enable a total of 1.

522
00:27:45,495 --> 00:27:48,435
3 gigawatts of new carbon free energy in Mississippi.

523
00:27:49,355 --> 00:27:50,215
So that's not nothing.

524
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,959
And I think a lot of this actually does come

525
00:27:53,959 --> 00:27:56,389
down to what we talked about with the houses.

526
00:27:56,429 --> 00:27:58,860
It's retrofitting is a challenge.

527
00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:01,920
It doesn't matter what building you're talking about.

528
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,039
Whether it's a house, it's a factory, it's a data center.

529
00:28:05,270 --> 00:28:07,540
If it's already built, it's basically already built.

530
00:28:08,369 --> 00:28:10,209
If you don't believe me, go try to put air

531
00:28:10,209 --> 00:28:12,179
conditioning into a house built in 1900.

532
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:14,310
My parents had to do that.

533
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:15,439
How did it go?

534
00:28:16,035 --> 00:28:16,975
It was a project.

535
00:28:19,775 --> 00:28:22,135
One thing that happens, especially in this environment,

536
00:28:22,655 --> 00:28:24,945
Amazon is going to continue to expand their services.

537
00:28:24,945 --> 00:28:26,925
They're going to continue to build net new.

538
00:28:27,175 --> 00:28:27,565
Right.

539
00:28:27,855 --> 00:28:30,315
If they stick with this plan, like they did in Mississippi,

540
00:28:30,315 --> 00:28:33,665
where it seems like it worked out really well, there's hope.

541
00:28:34,474 --> 00:28:36,144
And the other interesting thing is.

542
00:28:36,665 --> 00:28:40,655
As new data centers are built, the existing power grid where they are

543
00:28:40,925 --> 00:28:45,185
often can't sustain the additional power draw, and so it's incumbent

544
00:28:45,185 --> 00:28:49,175
on the data center builders to basically add more power to the grid.

545
00:28:49,705 --> 00:28:52,855
And if we incentivize them to choose renewable

546
00:28:53,035 --> 00:28:56,135
as an energy source, then that new data center.

547
00:28:57,405 --> 00:29:00,375
As a consequence, create more renewable energy, and maybe

548
00:29:00,375 --> 00:29:03,335
some of that can be filtered back to the community at

549
00:29:03,345 --> 00:29:05,855
large, as opposed to just servicing that data center.

550
00:29:07,544 --> 00:29:09,804
Well, hey, thanks for listening or something.

551
00:29:09,804 --> 00:29:12,054
I guess you found it worthwhile enough if you made it all

552
00:29:12,054 --> 00:29:14,574
the way to the end, so congratulations to you, friend.

553
00:29:14,735 --> 00:29:16,194
You accomplished something today.

554
00:29:16,204 --> 00:29:17,675
Now you can go sit on the couch.

555
00:29:18,199 --> 00:29:21,629
Fire up a hot dog using geothermal energy,

556
00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:25,590
and play a game, uh, that's not electronic.

557
00:29:25,739 --> 00:29:26,389
Save the Earth.

558
00:29:26,459 --> 00:29:27,060
You've earned it.

559
00:29:27,290 --> 00:29:29,719
You can find more about the show by visiting our LinkedIn page.

560
00:29:29,719 --> 00:29:33,220
Just search Chaos Lever, or go to the website, ChaosLever.

561
00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:33,629
com.

562
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,350
Leave a comment, leave a voicemail.

563
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,549
We want to hear from you, and I bet some people

564
00:29:37,549 --> 00:29:39,939
are going to have opinions about this episode.

565
00:29:40,219 --> 00:29:41,969
Some of them might not even be terrible!

566
00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:42,909
Who knows?

567
00:29:44,010 --> 00:29:47,990
We'll be back next week to see what fresh hell is upon us.

568
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:49,270
Hata for now.

569
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:58,879
People are gonna have opinions, Chris.

570
00:29:59,625 --> 00:30:00,335
Opinions about what?

571
00:30:01,065 --> 00:30:02,215
Spiders mostly, I bet.

572
00:30:02,215 --> 00:30:02,905
Electrified

573
00:30:02,905 --> 00:30:03,595
spiders.

574
00:30:03,595 --> 00:30:04,975
Electric spiders.

575
00:30:04,975 --> 00:30:06,354
Boogie woogie

576
00:30:07,195 --> 00:30:07,725
woogie.