1 00:00:05,750 --> 00:00:07,240 Welcome back to Count Me In. 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,840 IMA's podcast about all things affecting the accounting and finance world. 3 00:00:11,660 --> 00:00:12,880 I'm your host, Mitch Roshong, 4 00:00:13,100 --> 00:00:16,720 and you are listening to episode number 177 of our series. 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,330 Today's conversation features Dr. Anton Lewis, 6 00:00:20,780 --> 00:00:24,120 an associate professor of accounting at Valparaiso University, 7 00:00:24,370 --> 00:00:28,000 whose research investigates the experience of black accountants in the 8 00:00:28,001 --> 00:00:31,240 profession and promotes equitable racial representation. 9 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:33,860 In his conversation with my co-host Adam, 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,780 Dr. Lewis talks about DE&I in accounting, 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,060 common flaws relating to diversity equity and inclusion in the workplace, 12 00:00:41,670 --> 00:00:46,210 as well as what can be done and what he is already doing to advance and improve 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:48,770 equitable representation across the industry. 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,370 Keep listening as we head over to the conversation now. 15 00:00:59,790 --> 00:01:03,640 So Anton, historically conversation about race and the workplace, 16 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,240 particularly within accounting simply have not happened. Now, 17 00:01:08,241 --> 00:01:09,880 there have been great achievements in DE&I, 18 00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:12,960 but there's still much room for improvement in our industry. 19 00:01:13,260 --> 00:01:14,093 Why do you think that is? 20 00:01:16,630 --> 00:01:20,680 Adam, If I had to really give you an answer to that, 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,190 I actually think it is because we 22 00:01:26,190 --> 00:01:30,630 in society and in particular US society have a great 23 00:01:31,390 --> 00:01:35,950 deal of problems talking about the subject of race 24 00:01:36,250 --> 00:01:37,270 and racial representation. 25 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:41,430 It's almost a taboo subject in many ways. 26 00:01:42,290 --> 00:01:46,900 So the problem is we know we have poor representation currently. 27 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,420 We know we've historically had poor representation, 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,020 but nobody really wants to talk about why that is because race 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,500 and racism are sticky, 30 00:01:59,830 --> 00:02:01,940 unpleasant subjects to talk about. 31 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,250 And part of what seems to be my life's cause now is 32 00:02:07,850 --> 00:02:12,290 a core trying to provoke a conversation around this area, 33 00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:16,850 which is not polarizing, which is almost impossible to do by definition. 34 00:02:17,630 --> 00:02:18,530 But to my mind, 35 00:02:18,790 --> 00:02:23,370 if we can't have a conversation about 36 00:02:24,150 --> 00:02:24,983 race, racism, 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,760 why we have poor black representation in our accounting profession and have 38 00:02:30,780 --> 00:02:33,120 had historically, and, you know, 39 00:02:33,121 --> 00:02:37,280 if we can't have this conversation and it be at two polar opposite ends to this, 40 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:40,920 but yet still respect each other, each one another's views, 41 00:02:41,300 --> 00:02:45,990 we will not actually significantly change 42 00:02:46,930 --> 00:02:51,910 the situation. We will not deal with this problem effectively. And to my mind, 43 00:02:52,470 --> 00:02:56,550 that has kind of been the status quo for quite some time. 44 00:02:58,260 --> 00:03:01,160 Yeah, that makes sense. I think I've seen that as well, 45 00:03:02,020 --> 00:03:04,320 but as we specifically like focus in on accounting, 46 00:03:04,321 --> 00:03:05,600 as you kind of did there at the end, 47 00:03:06,420 --> 00:03:10,520 you are often the only person of color in a predominantly white workplace day in 48 00:03:10,521 --> 00:03:11,640 and day out, you know, 49 00:03:11,641 --> 00:03:15,640 how have you handled that and what have you done to advance the way that is 50 00:03:15,641 --> 00:03:17,200 perceived or how you feel about it? 51 00:03:18,740 --> 00:03:21,190 It's tricky, isn't it? There are 52 00:03:22,750 --> 00:03:24,030 those critical theorists, 53 00:03:24,060 --> 00:03:28,190 critical race theorists among others who talk about 54 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:33,270 this environmental microaggression that occurs being the 55 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,590 only black person in an accounting organization or any other 56 00:03:39,170 --> 00:03:43,860 organization that when you step foot in the building of which you work and you 57 00:03:43,980 --> 00:03:48,860 are one of the three people out of 500 that work there without anybody 58 00:03:49,300 --> 00:03:51,900 saying anything without 59 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:55,820 anybody saying you don't belong, 60 00:03:55,821 --> 00:03:58,660 you feel it in the very walls of the institution you're in, 61 00:03:58,661 --> 00:04:03,490 and it can be a quite effective way of pushing those of difference out of 62 00:04:03,491 --> 00:04:07,970 the doors in terms of how one deals with that. It's difficult. 63 00:04:08,070 --> 00:04:12,890 the entire reason why I look at the area of race 64 00:04:12,891 --> 00:04:17,090 and racism and where I'm originally from, 65 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,160 from Britain as you may hear in my accent when I was a jobing 66 00:04:22,641 --> 00:04:25,160 accountant, so to speak, that would happen to me all the time. 67 00:04:25,860 --> 00:04:29,360 And it's the reason that I began to look at this subject topic, 68 00:04:29,490 --> 00:04:32,960 cause I always wanted to know, well, why am I the only one there? 69 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:35,440 And as I was experiencing this, 70 00:04:35,441 --> 00:04:39,360 I really wanted to have other people of color, other black people, 71 00:04:39,361 --> 00:04:43,190 other black professionals, ironically, to talk about this, to say, 72 00:04:43,191 --> 00:04:46,630 I'm not going mad. Am I, are you having this feeling as well? 73 00:04:46,631 --> 00:04:50,190 And the truth of the matter if they just weren't there and it becomes a circular 74 00:04:50,420 --> 00:04:53,750 problem, right? What am I doing to try to change this? 75 00:04:53,810 --> 00:04:55,870 Because I'm an accounting professor. 76 00:04:55,871 --> 00:05:00,830 One of the things I try to do is encourage now I'm here in the United States, 77 00:05:01,421 --> 00:05:06,260 as many African Americans as many black accountants as I 78 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:08,980 can into profession with more numbers, 79 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:13,060 it kind of gets rid of that feeling of being alone. 80 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,460 But unfortunately it's still a very difficult process. 81 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,500 Another thing that I've tried to do is write more publicly in 82 00:05:22,430 --> 00:05:26,290 things like the CPA journal. I've tried to increase my social media presence. 83 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:29,490 I've tried to reach out with my own podcast, 84 00:05:30,571 --> 00:05:35,490 Counting Black and White Beans as an idea to be able to be used 85 00:05:35,491 --> 00:05:39,730 as a resource to allow those black accountants who feel 86 00:05:40,330 --> 00:05:41,970 isolated, who are feeling a little bit lost, 87 00:05:42,260 --> 00:05:46,280 let them know that this is not unusual, that this is actually quite common, 88 00:05:46,281 --> 00:05:48,960 whether it's in the United Kingdom or the United States, 89 00:05:49,220 --> 00:05:52,520 and for them to have a feeling of kinship, 90 00:05:53,041 --> 00:05:54,800 of a kindred kind of 91 00:05:56,780 --> 00:06:00,960 effect for one of a better word kind of saying you're in, 92 00:06:00,961 --> 00:06:04,800 we're in this together. And so I'm afraid to say, Adam, 93 00:06:05,260 --> 00:06:10,000 if you're looking for an absolute definite answer as to how does one deal with 94 00:06:10,001 --> 00:06:14,960 the isolation often of being one of the few black people within an 95 00:06:14,961 --> 00:06:18,750 accounting environment, I can't give you any firm answers to that. 96 00:06:19,030 --> 00:06:21,710 I suspect it's as difficult to deal with today. 97 00:06:22,170 --> 00:06:24,630 As I found it decades ago. 98 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,840 I'd imagine it is, it's not easy being underrepresented in any profession. 99 00:06:31,841 --> 00:06:33,040 But for the black accountant, 100 00:06:33,041 --> 00:06:35,440 there has to be various stereotypes that are there tales. 101 00:06:36,180 --> 00:06:39,830 Can you explain how or why these stereotypes exist and what impact that 102 00:06:39,831 --> 00:06:40,950 misinformation has? 103 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:45,430 Yeah. And again, 104 00:06:46,260 --> 00:06:51,070 these stereotypes exist in our profession and other 105 00:06:51,071 --> 00:06:54,590 professions as well. Because we, in my opinion, 106 00:06:54,911 --> 00:06:59,110 and many others live in a racialized environment, you know, we, 107 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,340 our racialized views of those who are different 108 00:07:04,341 --> 00:07:05,174 from ourselves, 109 00:07:05,750 --> 00:07:10,420 don't stop at the doors of the organizations that we 110 00:07:10,810 --> 00:07:11,643 work in. 111 00:07:11,810 --> 00:07:16,100 Some of the traditional stereotypes that black accountants often 112 00:07:16,530 --> 00:07:19,460 have to deal with that I've found in my research and many other's 113 00:07:21,010 --> 00:07:24,050 is one would be of being angry. 114 00:07:24,270 --> 00:07:27,450 If you are a black male accountant, and I should be clear here, 115 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:32,250 there are different stereotypes often for black women 116 00:07:32,251 --> 00:07:36,810 accountants and black male accountants. So for black male accountants, 117 00:07:37,540 --> 00:07:41,560 anger is often an issue. So, you know, 118 00:07:41,740 --> 00:07:46,440 if one is out on an audit and you find 119 00:07:46,441 --> 00:07:50,720 something has come up and you're in the middle of a meeting with your team to 120 00:07:50,721 --> 00:07:54,360 try to address this issue and tempers become a little bit frayed. 121 00:07:54,860 --> 00:07:56,760 If you are the black accountant, 122 00:07:56,780 --> 00:08:01,670 you understand clearly that you cannot be passionate like your white 123 00:08:01,671 --> 00:08:02,220 colleagues, 124 00:08:02,220 --> 00:08:06,830 because that is seen as being angry and unprofessional and 125 00:08:07,220 --> 00:08:10,950 unbecoming, that latitude is not afforded to you. 126 00:08:11,130 --> 00:08:15,270 And of course it makes it difficult in terms of impression management. 127 00:08:15,490 --> 00:08:19,470 Once we come around and look at performance evaluations and it may come up that 128 00:08:19,471 --> 00:08:23,940 you are unprofessional, angry, you scare inverted clients. 129 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:27,180 On the polar opposite, 130 00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:31,900 perhaps would be the experience that many black women professionals 131 00:08:32,730 --> 00:08:36,340 have of being seen as the Sapphire, 132 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:41,180 this steely hard unemotional unempathetic 133 00:08:41,730 --> 00:08:46,410 professional that is cold sometimes also can be 134 00:08:47,150 --> 00:08:49,060 angry in that negative way. 135 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,140 But the idea here is that she is not a team player. 136 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:58,090 She is overbearing she's quintessentially, anti feminine or unfeminine, 137 00:08:58,091 --> 00:09:03,010 if you like in this setting and be it with just these two 138 00:09:04,010 --> 00:09:08,730 examples of stereotypes that you mentioned that are often prevalent to the 139 00:09:08,940 --> 00:09:12,090 black accounting or black professional experience, 140 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:13,970 whether it's being too angry, 141 00:09:14,030 --> 00:09:18,480 if you are a black male accountant or being positioned as Sapphire as 142 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,960 a black woman accountant, 143 00:09:21,470 --> 00:09:24,680 both positionalities for wont of better word, 144 00:09:25,510 --> 00:09:29,800 mean that you are othered and you are positioned outside 145 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,340 the professional, the remit of being seen as completely professional. 146 00:09:34,370 --> 00:09:37,890 What I mean by of that is you're always on the outside, looking in, 147 00:09:38,110 --> 00:09:42,690 you can never truly embody that authentic accountant, 148 00:09:43,210 --> 00:09:44,170 that trusted accountant, 149 00:09:44,171 --> 00:09:47,210 and that's actually quite vital for the work that we do. 150 00:09:48,690 --> 00:09:50,480 Definitely. And, those, 151 00:09:50,481 --> 00:09:55,040 just those two examples that you used are not isolated to just accountants. 152 00:09:55,110 --> 00:09:59,590 I've seen those in any other profession as well. 153 00:09:59,620 --> 00:10:03,830 Just how people view folks of color in that way. 154 00:10:04,290 --> 00:10:06,470 And that kind of brings us in our conversation. 155 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:09,710 I wanted to circle back to something you mentioned earlier was microaggressions. 156 00:10:09,970 --> 00:10:11,310 You know, we often hear that term, 157 00:10:11,690 --> 00:10:14,910 but I'm not sure everyone truly understands what that means. 158 00:10:15,370 --> 00:10:18,460 And to what extent they can have an effect on people in the workplace. 159 00:10:18,740 --> 00:10:21,260 So maybe you can share your thoughts on that with us. 160 00:10:22,470 --> 00:10:26,250 Yes. microaggressions, one of these many terms that's kind of banded around, 161 00:10:26,570 --> 00:10:31,570 but people don't give you a concise definition of really what they 162 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:32,433 are. Essentially, 163 00:10:33,790 --> 00:10:38,680 microaggressions are racialized. Racial, like aggressions are, 164 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,840 are flights often verbal, sometimes environmental, 165 00:10:43,841 --> 00:10:48,640 as I've highlighted that say that you are not welcome, you are not wanted, 166 00:10:48,641 --> 00:10:53,600 you are othered to give you the best example of what a microaggression 167 00:10:53,601 --> 00:10:55,080 would be like. Imagine Adam, 168 00:10:55,081 --> 00:10:59,110 that you went into your account workplace, 169 00:10:59,410 --> 00:11:03,510 and as you sat down, had your coffee opened up one of the letters, 170 00:11:03,511 --> 00:11:05,950 one of the many letters that you had, you've got a paper cut. 171 00:11:06,250 --> 00:11:09,790 Now we've all experienced paper cuts, right? Sharp, painful, 172 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,350 awful annoying. It's not going to kill you, right? 173 00:11:13,351 --> 00:11:16,270 You're not gonna bleed to death, so to speak, but it's annoying. 174 00:11:16,570 --> 00:11:20,660 But imagine if you had 50 paper cuts a day, 175 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:27,000 every day that you went into your workplace day after day, 176 00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:31,920 week after week, month after month, year after year, eventually 177 00:11:33,450 --> 00:11:38,270 you get almost a part of you dies by a thousand paper 178 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:42,500 cuts. If you like, at least that professional part, that professional self, 179 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,980 and it can be incredibly harmful to one's 180 00:11:47,901 --> 00:11:48,780 psychological makeup. 181 00:11:48,781 --> 00:11:53,640 It can be incredibly harmful to one's ability to function in the 182 00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:58,120 workplace. It is continual and unremitting othering. 183 00:11:58,121 --> 00:12:02,480 If you like, and it's a genuine problematic, 184 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:06,760 it can be micro thoughts as we might term 185 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:08,521 them where, 186 00:12:08,521 --> 00:12:13,470 and forgive me on some of my definitions here where we might think that 187 00:12:13,970 --> 00:12:18,630 we are not welcome in the 188 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:22,710 workplace because essentially we don't belong. I.E., 189 00:12:22,711 --> 00:12:24,310 black people don't belong in accounting. 190 00:12:24,311 --> 00:12:27,510 That might be inferred in a very subtle kind of way. 191 00:12:27,970 --> 00:12:32,950 It may be as I once witnessed with not so much 192 00:12:33,310 --> 00:12:35,340 black accountant in Britain, 193 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:40,500 but south Asian Muslim accountant back in the United Kingdom where 194 00:12:40,980 --> 00:12:45,540 I had interviewed a respondent and he cited that 195 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,220 he was offered bacon sandwiches regularly. 196 00:12:50,220 --> 00:12:52,940 And if you are of Muslim heritage, 197 00:12:54,610 --> 00:12:58,610 that you cannot do that. And it was kind of known. 198 00:12:58,611 --> 00:13:03,410 It's not a direct physical attack, but it's incredibly deeply offensive. 199 00:13:03,590 --> 00:13:06,490 And it's these kind of actions that cumulative, 200 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,490 that relate to something term battle fatigue, where it just becomes too much, 201 00:13:11,950 --> 00:13:16,280 you become depressed. There are physiological effects that can happen, 202 00:13:16,350 --> 00:13:21,080 including extraordinarily high stress levels which 203 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:26,480 can lead to high blood pressure, et cetera, et cetera. And you know, 204 00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:30,680 when we're talking about these microaggressions as well, and, you know, 205 00:13:30,980 --> 00:13:34,480 we should not forget about this concept that you've alluded to Adam about 206 00:13:34,770 --> 00:13:37,550 intersectionality. So some of this, again, 207 00:13:37,810 --> 00:13:42,630 speaks to not just being a black person in that environment, 208 00:13:42,690 --> 00:13:46,710 but whether you are a black woman in this environment and that gendered piece 209 00:13:47,810 --> 00:13:51,230 should this black woman go into the 210 00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:56,290 workplace and her hair is for example, 211 00:13:56,750 --> 00:13:59,770 now braided, it is seen as unprofessional. 212 00:14:00,390 --> 00:14:02,250 And in that unprofessional environment, 213 00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:05,970 you may not be recognized as working there. There have been reports of this. 214 00:14:06,350 --> 00:14:10,810 it may, you may have the typical side eye. 215 00:14:10,910 --> 00:14:14,450 People may not want you in front of the clients because you don't look 216 00:14:14,451 --> 00:14:15,450 professional enough. 217 00:14:15,510 --> 00:14:20,400 As women will understand if one's hemline on any given 218 00:14:20,961 --> 00:14:23,680 day where when a skirt is, is worn, is too short, 219 00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:26,280 one gets judged upon this, 220 00:14:26,510 --> 00:14:31,360 this idea that there is a controlling factor in femininity in general, 221 00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:34,400 but specifically on certain aspects of black femininity. 222 00:14:34,540 --> 00:14:36,080 And when we're talking about hairstyles, 223 00:14:36,081 --> 00:14:40,830 the same thing then crosses over equally to African American men who may decide 224 00:14:40,831 --> 00:14:43,390 to wear their hair in dreadlocks. And that, again, 225 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:48,030 positions them as being unprofessional. Although to be fair, 226 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,160 there should be a right for people to hold their own 227 00:14:53,290 --> 00:14:54,123 style, 228 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,560 their own way of being their department that is actually true to their own 229 00:14:58,561 --> 00:15:03,440 culture. And that actually speaks to something else, which is quite interesting. 230 00:15:04,060 --> 00:15:08,760 If we see these variances in what is acceptable and not acceptable, 231 00:15:09,190 --> 00:15:11,310 then the environment that we work in, Adam, 232 00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:15,550 within accounting has a set of unwritten rules. 233 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,230 These rules are about what is professional and what is considered professional 234 00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:24,150 is what is considered both pale and male. 235 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:29,090 And that's really important because if you are not male and you're not pale and 236 00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:30,290 arguably middle class, 237 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,600 then you are always going to swim against the tide of your success in that 238 00:15:34,601 --> 00:15:35,434 environment. 239 00:15:36,310 --> 00:15:38,480 When you don't look like that, typical professional, 240 00:15:38,481 --> 00:15:40,920 like you were just talking about it others you, right. 241 00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:46,760 How can we make steps to go forward to change that perception of 242 00:15:46,761 --> 00:15:48,400 what a professional looks like? 243 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:53,830 It seems like a broader conversation and something you can't just flip the 244 00:15:53,831 --> 00:15:55,190 switch and say, this is how you do it, 245 00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:59,830 but what steps can we take to changing that perception of what a professional 246 00:15:59,831 --> 00:16:02,670 person looks like? No matter what the color of their skin is. 247 00:16:04,780 --> 00:16:08,110 That is a really difficult question, Adam. 248 00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:13,460 I always say the simplest questions are the most difficult 249 00:16:13,530 --> 00:16:15,780 ones to answer. And this is 250 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,540 true here for us not to other, 251 00:16:22,990 --> 00:16:27,540 we must reticulate truthfully what we consider an accounting professional 252 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,940 to be. And if we're honest, think about how we, how we term accountants. 253 00:16:32,941 --> 00:16:36,730 When we joke about them, we call them bean counters. Right? 254 00:16:36,731 --> 00:16:40,810 If you imagine in your mind's eye, Adam, what a bean counter is. 255 00:16:40,811 --> 00:16:45,330 I would say bean counter to me is possibly a middle aged 256 00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:49,290 white man, possibly be speckled. Right? Okay. 257 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,890 Gray hair with a calculator, furiously tapping away, 258 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,080 possibly doing some taxes. Yeah. 259 00:16:56,660 --> 00:17:01,200 And this is important because that mental image that I have is to me, 260 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:03,480 the authentic accountant, 261 00:17:03,870 --> 00:17:06,760 that is the accountant that I trust with my money. 262 00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:08,720 I don't want an interesting accountant. 263 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,360 Somebody who looks like they go and party or looking after my money, 264 00:17:12,580 --> 00:17:14,910 but all jesting and joking side, 265 00:17:15,370 --> 00:17:18,350 if you are not that archetype of an accountant, 266 00:17:18,860 --> 00:17:23,390 then you must be something else you must be other 267 00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:28,310 than what I expect. And that othering piece has to be removed. 268 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:32,630 Because even though I talk about this othering of black 269 00:17:33,220 --> 00:17:34,670 male and female accountants, 270 00:17:34,671 --> 00:17:38,380 we must have also talk about the othering of our Latinx community, 271 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,180 the othering of our LGBTQ+ community, 272 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,940 the othering of women in general those who are less able 273 00:17:47,020 --> 00:17:50,400 bodied than ourselves in terms of othering, that othering piece 274 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:56,440 is a tricky thing to deal with. That's what we've really got to co overcome. 275 00:17:56,820 --> 00:17:57,800 And so, for example, 276 00:17:58,630 --> 00:18:02,520 even how we approach dealing with this othering concept 277 00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:05,480 must be well thought out. 278 00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:09,670 So if we somehow magically manage not to other 279 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,910 black women and black male accountants, 280 00:18:15,930 --> 00:18:19,190 are we leaving our Latinx brothers and sisters out? 281 00:18:19,210 --> 00:18:22,430 Are we leaving our LGBTQ plus brothers and sisters out? 282 00:18:22,730 --> 00:18:26,310 Are we leaving those colleagues who are less able bodied out? 283 00:18:26,330 --> 00:18:30,940 Are we leaving other stigmatized groups out? If we are going to do this, 284 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,580 we must. The analogy I like to use here, 285 00:18:33,581 --> 00:18:37,940 Adam is we must raise all ships. 286 00:18:38,260 --> 00:18:43,220 We must have a tide of equity and equality if you like that 287 00:18:43,221 --> 00:18:45,140 raises all ships at the same time, 288 00:18:45,141 --> 00:18:49,060 which is why I always force through this idea of intersectionality. 289 00:18:49,530 --> 00:18:53,890 When we look at dealing with this devilishly tricky concept of othering, 290 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:56,690 and I'll be perfectly truthful here, 291 00:18:56,691 --> 00:19:00,770 Adam you are asking me for solutions that I don't have. 292 00:19:01,530 --> 00:19:04,730 I don't know how to do that, Adam. I really don't know how we do that. 293 00:19:05,330 --> 00:19:09,970 I only know I think one thing that as we deal with this sticky 294 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,240 problem of othering, we must do it together. 295 00:19:14,270 --> 00:19:15,970 We must everybody, 296 00:19:17,210 --> 00:19:19,340 everybody must join in this conversation, 297 00:19:19,341 --> 00:19:23,180 which is why I advocate for the idea of conversation, of dialogue, 298 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,180 of not being fearful. Yeah. That stops us dead in our tracks. 299 00:19:28,450 --> 00:19:33,330 When we can't talk about this issue of othering and 300 00:19:33,350 --> 00:19:35,490 say to ourselves, well, let's try this. Let's try that. 301 00:19:35,491 --> 00:19:40,480 Let's try this in a manner that says we work together and not work 302 00:19:40,481 --> 00:19:42,800 against one another. If that helps. 303 00:19:44,490 --> 00:19:45,830 It does, it really does. 304 00:19:45,930 --> 00:19:50,030 And I think the idea of conversation is a great way to start dialogue. 305 00:19:50,210 --> 00:19:55,020 People need to talk in not attack or condemn or assume, 306 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,460 but actually just have that conversation cuz until you have the conversations 307 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,020 and start the dialogue, sometimes your eyes aren't open until you start talking. 308 00:20:04,090 --> 00:20:07,220 Without a shadow of a doubt, Adam, you know, and again, 309 00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:13,680 it would seem that we've lost the art to talk and to talk in a manner 310 00:20:13,980 --> 00:20:18,550 that does not malign the person we're talking to that doesn't 311 00:20:18,690 --> 00:20:23,310 reduce the the other person's sense of, of self worth or being. 312 00:20:23,850 --> 00:20:27,870 We really have to have great. We need to do better in that. You know, we are, 313 00:20:27,871 --> 00:20:31,710 unfortunately, and it's not just the United States here in my homeland, 314 00:20:31,730 --> 00:20:35,540 the United Kingdom, it's just as bad and in our areas across Europe as well. 315 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,620 And in other places, we are entrenched in this, 316 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:46,620 position of polarization, of partisanship. 317 00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:51,240 It's getting us nowhere. And certainly it, when we do that, 318 00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:56,000 we remove the tools of which to deal with very difficult problems. 319 00:20:56,820 --> 00:20:59,560 And that in of itself is something we're going to have to deal with. 320 00:20:59,580 --> 00:21:02,480 But actually as a matter of point Adam, 321 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,670 I actually think our profession in accounting is really well suited in what we 322 00:21:07,690 --> 00:21:11,870 do to begin to make inroads to that very point. Why would I say that? 323 00:21:12,610 --> 00:21:15,350 In accounting, we are all about teamwork. 324 00:21:15,850 --> 00:21:20,430 We are all about dealing with difficult intractable problems that 325 00:21:20,431 --> 00:21:22,590 seemingly often don't seem to have a solution, 326 00:21:22,610 --> 00:21:24,110 but we come up with them all the time. 327 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:28,980 And not only that we are in the business of relaying that information 328 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,250 out there. I actually believe that accountants in this area, 329 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,940 if we really set our mind to it with our skill sets, 330 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,620 we can actually do something quite special, but we can't do it. 331 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,260 If we can't talk about it, we can't do it. 332 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:50,490 If we are polarized and partisan and we can't do it if we don't admit 333 00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:53,290 where we are and what we need to do about it, 334 00:21:53,291 --> 00:21:56,610 going forward about this racialized space within accounting. 335 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,490 This has been Count Me In IMA's podcast providing you with the latest 336 00:22:03,491 --> 00:22:06,890 perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. 337 00:22:07,070 --> 00:22:07,691 If you like what you heard, 338 00:22:07,691 --> 00:22:11,240 and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance 339 00:22:11,350 --> 00:22:15,040 education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.