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Hi, welcome to Upstream.

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I'm Zach Patterson.

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Hi.

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You're ready.

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I was ready.

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I was just excited that Sherry's back in

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the studio with us.

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Welcome home, Sherry.

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We love you so much.

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Great to be here.

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And our body loves you.

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They love Upstream.

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They love hearing from you.

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I'm just so thankful that you're here.

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I'm so grateful our body loves you the

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way that they do.

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You are kind.

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I'm glad to be here.

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We've gotten a lot of questions.

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Hey, when's Upstream coming back?

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That lady, is she going to be there?

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That lady, Sherry.

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And I think that's important.

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I want to take a moment.

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Sherry, there's not a lot of LA County

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people that know you, except for maybe a

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few families who went to the school.

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But I think it's important that people know

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that you started an incredible Christian school in

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Orange County, in South Orange County.

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And how long ago did you start the

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school?

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42 years ago.

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42 years ago.

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And now the school...

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I didn't...

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No.

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Yeah.

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No.

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You're not that far behind.

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But it is a K-8 school now.

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Preschool through 8th.

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All right.

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Preschool through 8th.

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And how many students does it boast?

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Just short of 600, I think, right now.

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Yeah.

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That is incredible.

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I know my son went to your school.

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Two of my boys, quite a little bit.

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Just, I'm so thankful for your investment.

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And just so that our body knows, I

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was challenged to find a pastor in our

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area that could minister to me, and outside

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of my bubble, outside of my box.

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And the Lord really put you on my

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heart.

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You have so many wonderful...

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I know you're not a pastor of a

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church per se, but you have so many

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wonderful pastoral gifts.

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And I'm just so grateful for our years

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of connection and relationship, and your investment into

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me and my family.

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We're just thankful to have you a part

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of us now here, even at Calvary Life.

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So I just...

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Everyone keeps asking me, who is Sherry Worrell?

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Who's Sherry Worrell?

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Well, because they don't get the opportunity and

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the privilege of knowing you personally, I just

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think it's important that they know who you

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are to me and Pastor Zach as well.

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You are so sweet, but that does not

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mean I will be...

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I had a feeling we were already going

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to be going there.

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Perfect.

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Perfect.

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I love that.

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Thank you, God.

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Yeah.

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Well, awesome.

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Hey, we've had a lot of crazy things

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going on in the world.

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I know we're going to talk about that

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a little bit today.

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Some of the war, the outbreak, the strike

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of the U.S. on Iran.

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But before we jump into it, if we

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can just launch in prayer, that'd be awesome.

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God, thank you for being on the throne.

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God, thank you that no matter what happens

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around us, we can be reminded of who's

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within us, the God that we serve.

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Lord, you have all this in control.

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And though there are things we may not

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understand, and things we're trying to figure out

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and understand, how does this align with Scripture?

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Is this a fulfillment of prophecy?

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What exactly is going on?

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Lord, would you help us to fix our

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eyes on you?

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Help us to honor you in the way

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that we carry our conversations, the way that

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we represent you.

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And for this time, God, would you be

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glorified?

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Would you use this even for the building

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up of your church?

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God, would you edify and equip for the

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work of the ministry, I pray in Jesus'

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name.

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Amen.

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Zach, I always listen when you pray because

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I do believe that oftentimes...

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You pray for me every service, every time

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I speak.

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I do.

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And I always listen to every prayer that

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you say.

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And I was listening again.

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It's important that people realize with all of

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the seemingly out-of-controllness going on in

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the world today that God is in control.

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And I think the chaos of the cross

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speaks to this.

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I mean, everyone felt defeated.

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They were like, what in the world's going

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on?

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But Jesus rose again.

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You know, God was in control, though it

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didn't seem that he was.

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And I just think it's so important that

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we recognize that God is in control as

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a foundation of this conversation.

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I'm sure, I don't know if you would

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add anything to that.

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I just would agree.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, with the out-of-control,

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you know, I think that obviously there's a

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mixed perspective and a lot of opinion on

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what's happened as of late.

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So, June 21st, 22nd, the U.S. strikes

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Iran.

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And some people are, yes, that's awesome.

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Some people are, hey, we need to stay

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out of it.

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We need to mind our own business.

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Obviously, the point of our conversation today is

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to look at it from a biblical world

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view to say, hey, how does a believer,

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someone who follows Jesus, how do we see

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this?

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How do we represent him?

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So, I mean, maybe just first, obviously, there's

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a lot of conversation in churches because it's

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connected to Israel.

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Well, I think the other question too is,

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is this a sign of the end times?

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Yes, for sure.

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I think that's something as well.

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I know, Sherry, you and I agree on

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all of that.

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We could talk about, but I think it's

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important to recognize that Jesus made it very

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clear that there will be wars and rumors

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of war.

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Now, whether you're for or against or we

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should have or we shouldn't have, the Lord

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makes it very clear these things are going

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to happen.

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Right.

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And they've been happening for some time.

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So, I think that's important to recognize that

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Jesus let us know these things are going

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to take part in our world, which is

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in this world system, which is controlled by

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the enemy.

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Yeah.

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So, maybe can we just start there?

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Because like you said, that's a passage that

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I think is familiar for people.

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And so, it spurs that question.

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Are we in the end times?

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What does this mean?

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Should we be ready for Jesus coming?

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Sherry, are we in the end times?

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Yes, yes.

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And it may last a very long time

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before he returns.

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I mean, what is it?

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Mark 13 and Matthew 25 take that exact

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position.

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When you hear of this and this and

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this, be aware, being paying attention.

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It's nigh, but it ain't here now.

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That was 2,000 years ago.

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We're still having this conversation.

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And on his timetable, he'll bring it to

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fruition, not on your timetable or mine.

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I think that the real issue about this

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latest round of skirmishes, I don't know if

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I should even call it skirmishes, the difficulties

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in Israel, especially as it relates to Iran,

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it begs the question, should we be supportive

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of Israel simply because Genesis 12 talks about

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blessing those and cursing those in that very

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familiar passage?

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The problem there, in my opinion, is that

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we are equating a biblical position, a biblical

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understanding of who Israel is, the theological position

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of persons of Israel versus a geopolitical position

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of recognizing Israel as a state.

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I need to highlight those two words, a

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geopolitical Israel and a theological Israel.

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Could you unpack that just for a minute,

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Sherry?

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Because I think those are two very important

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terms.

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The theological Israel would be that which the

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Lord set up by entering into a covenant

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relationship with Abraham and saying, you know, through

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you, I'm going to build a nation.

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I'm going to build a people group.

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And I'm going to be in a covenant

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with this people group.

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I'm going to do these things.

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I'm going to accomplish these things through this

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relationship that I have with these specific people.

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The geopolitical position is a government.

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And can I add to your first definition,

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ruled by God.

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Yes.

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A covenant and a law that was a

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theocracy ruled by God.

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Absolutely.

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Okay, good.

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He was in control.

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He was setting the parameters.

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He was setting the rules.

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Speaking through his prophets, picking judges, which are

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leaders, so forth and so on.

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Setting up boundaries, giving them responsibilities within those

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boundaries, et cetera.

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The geopolitical definition is a government, a current,

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in this case, government that exists as, you

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know, other governments do in the world to

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promote the blessing of their own people.

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And their people may or may not be

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people of faith.

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And in the case of Israel, there are

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some who are, and a bunch who are

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not.

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You know, and let's go back to an

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understanding.

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The theological Israel, or excuse me, the theocratic

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Israel lasted until the kings.

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And if you remember, picking a king was

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a rebellion against God's authority.

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It wasn't God's plan to begin with.

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And we're studying the book of Second Chronicles.

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And God says something to Rehoboam that I

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think is so important in regards to the

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way he thinks.

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He gives him over to Shishak, the Egyptian

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pharaoh, king.

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And he says, you know what?

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I'm going to give you over to Egypt

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and you see if they're better than me.

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Like, you go ahead.

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Since you want Egypt so bad, you go

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ahead and see if they're better than me.

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And I think what we're experiencing with this

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geopolitical, this governance, it was God's way of

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saying, okay, you don't want to be ruled

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by me.

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I'm going to give you to man.

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Now, let me tell you all the things

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the king's going to do.

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He's going to tax you.

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He's going to take your sons.

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He's going to do this.

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But you go ahead, see how it is.

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We're still there.

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We're still God allowing Israel to be ruled

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by man.

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And I want to, that's why I'm making

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you highlight, not making, but asking you to

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highlight the difference between that theocratic, because I

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think that has great impact of the way

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that we look at what's going on.

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So go ahead, continue for us.

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Well, what happens is people will quote this

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verse.

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Let me get it right.

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He says in Genesis 12, I will bless

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you and do a great nation.

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I'll bless you, make your name great, and

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you'll be a blessing.

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I will bless those who bless you.

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Whoever curses you, I will curse.

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And all the peoples on earth will be

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blessed through you.

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And so immediately someone says, we cannot oppose

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what Israel has done, whether it's in regard

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to Iran or in regard to Gaza for

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that matter.

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We can't oppose that, what the current government

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has done, the decisions that were made, especially

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as it relates to war.

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We can't oppose that because see, otherwise we're

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going to be in a position of not

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receiving God's blessing.

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Sorry, I want to make sure that everyone

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heard what you said.

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You're saying almost like because of that scripture,

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we feel we can't oppose anything that Israel

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does because they're God's chosen people.

323
00:10:36,020 --> 00:10:38,000
Yeah, the criticism is don't do that because

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there's the verse.

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If you want to be blessed, you can't

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be critical.

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And I'm making a distinction between the spiritualness

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of Israel as described here and on through

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the Old Testament and the geopolitical government and

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saying, wait a minute, we can be critical

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of what the current government is doing without

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violating the principles that are outlined for us

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00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:01,400
here.

334
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,940
Yeah, I think that's part of even their

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00:11:03,940 --> 00:11:04,540
own system.

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00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,620
The current government is very critical of things

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00:11:09,620 --> 00:11:11,600
that are, there are so many different sides

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00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,620
to how to deal with this particular issue.

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00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:15,660
And I think that's a very important point.

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When we are praying for Israel, we're not

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praying from the perspective now that everything they

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00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:22,260
do is right.

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And I'm not saying things that they've done

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is wrong.

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And I'll go back all the way to

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October 7th.

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If my family was kidnapped, I'd do everything

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and anything to get my family back.

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So you can spin that one way or

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the other.

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00:11:36,740 --> 00:11:44,160
But sorry, when the Hamas go into an

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area and they take people from your family

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members, of course, you're going to go and

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try to get them back at all costs.

355
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,800
But that doesn't mean that everything that Israel's

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done is right.

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And I think that's important to pull out.

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00:11:58,580 --> 00:11:58,680
Yeah.

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So, I mean, if I can just track

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00:12:00,660 --> 00:12:01,040
with you.

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00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:03,260
So obviously you're referring back, this has been

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something that's been building.

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It's gotten heightened.

364
00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,840
This has been building since Ishmael and Isaac.

365
00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:12,600
Yeah, but especially recently with some of the

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activity and some of the attack and some

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of the, and in the church, there is

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00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:19,880
an understanding from some people that go, well,

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00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:21,000
you need to agree with.

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00:12:21,180 --> 00:12:22,860
What I'm hearing you guys say is, no,

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00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,560
you don't have to agree with.

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Everything that Israel does.

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Right.

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00:12:26,540 --> 00:12:26,840
Yes.

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00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:29,180
And just like I don't agree with everything

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00:12:29,180 --> 00:12:30,580
the United States of America does.

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00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:32,900
One of the arguments that says you should

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00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:36,860
or must agree is the idea that there's

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a covenantal relationship between Israel and the Lord.

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00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:40,740
And there is.

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The covenant.

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A forever covenant.

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00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:46,080
That's important.

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00:12:46,260 --> 00:12:47,720
God uses the word forever.

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00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,240
Romans chapter 11.

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00:12:49,460 --> 00:12:50,380
It's not revocable.

387
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:52,640
There is absolutely a future for Israel.

388
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,720
You and I would completely agree with that.

389
00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:55,140
Absolutely.

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00:12:55,140 --> 00:13:00,000
But the idea that because there's a covenant,

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00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:04,100
then everything that they do is a thumbs

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00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:04,420
up.

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00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:04,900
No.

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00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:06,280
God doesn't even see that.

395
00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:06,900
No.

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00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:10,340
Some of the covenants have nothing to do

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00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:10,820
with Israel.

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00:13:11,140 --> 00:13:13,480
When in Genesis 15, when he walks through

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00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:18,320
the various killed animals and puts Abraham to

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00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,540
sleep indicating, wait a minute, this whole covenant

401
00:13:20,540 --> 00:13:21,180
is on me.

402
00:13:21,180 --> 00:13:25,080
It's not there's not a requirement back and

403
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:25,280
forth.

404
00:13:25,380 --> 00:13:28,260
But if you fast forward to in Chronicles,

405
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:29,920
if my people, which are called by my

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00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,080
name, will humble themselves and seek my face,

407
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:33,100
then I will.

408
00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:34,680
So sometimes it is conditional.

409
00:13:35,420 --> 00:13:37,500
Israel doesn't get a pass to do anything

410
00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:40,200
it wants on the basis of the covenant

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00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,640
that God has made with them.

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00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:48,600
Sometimes it's there on God's predicated on him

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00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,280
and his character.

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00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,740
And other times it's predicated on choices that

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00:13:51,740 --> 00:13:52,280
they make.

416
00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:56,540
Yeah, I think it's important, Sherry, right now,

417
00:13:56,660 --> 00:14:00,260
prophetically speaking, the Bible speaks about a gathering

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00:14:00,260 --> 00:14:02,960
in unbelief and a gathering in belief.

419
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,220
And what we're experiencing right now with the

420
00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:08,560
peace and the prosperity of Israel is what

421
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,500
some theologians call the gathering in unbelief.

422
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,220
This is Israel coming together, being formed as

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00:14:16,220 --> 00:14:16,600
a nation.

424
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,100
It's the geopolitical Israel that you're talking about.

425
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:22,240
And God is blessing the nation.

426
00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:23,140
There is peace.

427
00:14:23,540 --> 00:14:24,860
I'm sorry, there is prosperity.

428
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,080
There people are building homes without walls.

429
00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:30,740
We see these things happening in Israel right

430
00:14:30,740 --> 00:14:30,900
now.

431
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,020
In fact, they say that the national bird

432
00:14:33,020 --> 00:14:35,860
of Israel is the crane, the crane that

433
00:14:35,860 --> 00:14:38,880
is building all the skyscrapers in every city.

434
00:14:39,060 --> 00:14:41,000
You see these cranes going up and they

435
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,800
look like these big crane birds, right?

436
00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:44,960
So Israel is growing and developing.

437
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,240
This is spoke about in Scripture.

438
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,020
It's the gathering in unbelief.

439
00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:51,780
Then there is the Zechariah, a spirit of

440
00:14:51,780 --> 00:14:55,020
supplication that's poured out on Israel when Christ's

441
00:14:55,020 --> 00:14:57,500
return that then there'll be a gathering in

442
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:58,120
belief.

443
00:14:58,420 --> 00:15:00,320
And this is a revival amongst Israel.

444
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,620
Now, this doesn't mean that every Israeli gets

445
00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:03,100
saved.

446
00:15:03,420 --> 00:15:05,500
This means that there will be a revival

447
00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:08,760
amongst Israelis and that those who believe in

448
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,820
the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

449
00:15:11,510 --> 00:15:13,480
Now, he is going to return and we

450
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,700
can go into a whole end times moment.

451
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:18,200
But what I wanted to talk about is

452
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,180
this gathering in unbelief is a geopolitical gathering.

453
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,080
And just like God pointed out mistakes that

454
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,140
Israel made as they were developing as a

455
00:15:26,140 --> 00:15:29,440
nation, we as Christians can be critical of

456
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,520
things that Israel does that is not right

457
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,180
or is wrong.

458
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:35,800
So I think that's important.

459
00:15:36,140 --> 00:15:37,080
Now, I don't want to be so heavy

460
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:37,560
on Israel.

461
00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,840
Because we do have a nation, Iran, that

462
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,360
as a nation.

463
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,020
Now, this is important to differentiate between people.

464
00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:48,120
I do a lot of ministry in Iran

465
00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,860
and the Iranian people are some of the

466
00:15:49,860 --> 00:15:52,700
most fascinating, wonderful people in the world.

467
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,840
They will tell you it's not us.

468
00:15:54,940 --> 00:15:58,220
It's our government and they reject.

469
00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:00,460
Now, I'm not giving a pass to Iran

470
00:16:00,460 --> 00:16:00,920
at all.

471
00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:03,660
I'm just simply saying that we've got to

472
00:16:03,660 --> 00:16:06,420
be careful that we don't as the world

473
00:16:06,420 --> 00:16:08,620
is called the axis of evil.

474
00:16:09,140 --> 00:16:12,340
All of these terms that the people aren't,

475
00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:13,800
it's the government.

476
00:16:14,420 --> 00:16:15,940
And so I don't want us to be

477
00:16:15,940 --> 00:16:19,480
so pro-Israel, we're anti-Iranian.

478
00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:22,740
Or so anti-Israel that we somehow miss

479
00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:25,660
the injunction to pray for Israel, which is

480
00:16:25,660 --> 00:16:28,020
a specific injunction in the scripture.

481
00:16:28,420 --> 00:16:31,540
Yeah, sorry, I'm going to have to cut

482
00:16:31,540 --> 00:16:31,900
you guys.

483
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,980
So we're going to continue our conversation.

484
00:16:34,180 --> 00:16:35,960
Obviously, we have a lot to talk about.

485
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,340
Sorry, but before you do, I just want

486
00:16:38,340 --> 00:16:39,580
it for the next section.

487
00:16:39,740 --> 00:16:41,160
We need to talk about pray for the

488
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:41,880
peace of Jerusalem.

489
00:16:42,060 --> 00:16:43,300
And what does that mean?

490
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,040
And what are we praying for?

491
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:45,420
Sorry.

492
00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:45,800
Great.

493
00:16:45,980 --> 00:16:46,740
No, great.

494
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:49,660
So join us on our next episode.

495
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:50,920
We'll continue the conversation.

496
00:16:51,260 --> 00:16:51,840
God bless you guys.