[00:00:00] Phil: Do you agree that saying no is often like one of the best things a marketing ops team can do and how you go about this in a constructive way [00:00:07] Anna: There's a shift that's happening how can you position your marketing ops team as a strategic lever versus like the service model historically that we've seen. Then it's easier to kind of push back and say no, because you have more context, behind why things are happening we can't do everything, but we can do some things and so we're gonna work with you and figure out the best way forward. You have to pick your battles as well how many hours am I going to actually end up putting into this when it could just be a simple, okay, we'll do it and we'll show you the results after. I always say there's no real emergency in marketing. it's just an email, you know, or it's just a marketing campaign, it's gonna be okay. [00:01:15] In This Episode --- [00:01:15] Phil: What's up everyone? Today we have the pleasure of chatting with Anna Leary, director of Marketing Operations at Alma. In this episode, we cover rituals that protect mental health, like the power of saying no quiet stress versus visible stress, and knowing your worth. [00:01:30] We also explore bad situations like hiring experts only to tell them what to do and the emotional tax of always having to prove yourself. All that and a bunch more stuff have to a quick word from two of our awesome partners. [00:01:42] ​ [00:03:47] Phil: I've always wanted to do a mental health theme episode for Marketing Ops and MarTech Pros, and I can't think of a better guest than the director of marketing ops and Alma, a mental health platform. Thank you so much for agreeing to do this during your crazy planning [00:04:00] week. I'm excited to chat. [00:04:01] Anna: Yeah, I'm excited to be here and kind of talk a little bit more about mental health and how it intertwines with marketing ops. [00:04:07] Phil: ~Yeah, it, I don't think it's like, talked enough about, there's so many technical components to marketing ops and, you know, we're the Humans of MarTech podcast. We, you know, as a namesake, love to talk about the human side of things. And I feel like this is a perfect episode to, to kind of chat about this.~ [00:04:07] ~And, ~um, my first thought of like, where do we take this conversation is kind of like. The behind the scenes and the burnout of like the role itself. So marketing ops is obviously like high pressure behind the scenes gig. Uh, if you've been in this role, you know that there's like a ton of fire drills all the time. [00:04:24] Last minute campaign changes, data emergencies, slack messages all the time. There's constant pressure to, you know. Do things and be responsive and it can totally take a serious toll on, on your mental health if it's not managed properly. [00:04:38] 1. How to Prevent Burnout in Marketing Operations --- [00:04:38] Phil: So working at a mental health company like Elma, you're probably more aware than most of the importance and like the skills you need to, or the strategies I guess, for taking care of your own mental wellness and also take care of the business. [00:04:51] Do you think the marketing ops community takes enough, uh, talks enough about stress and burnout, and how do you personally manage your mental health without burning out yourself [00:05:00] and, and your team members? [00:05:01] Anna: Yeah. Um, this is a great question. I think marketing ops, you know, naturally comes with like a heavy mental load in terms of like context switching all the time and things like that. Um, it's interesting because I've seen a, a few more people talk openly about burnout over the past few years. A little bit more on LinkedIn. [00:05:20] I've seen that. But then it's also balancing with, you know, this, this marketing ops world that we're in of, everyone's always trying to be like the top person that knows, like the tech or you know, is using the newest tool or is, you know, up to date on like this API or that API. So sometimes it's hard to keep up and that I think can add to, um, some of that mental load as well, just in this community in general. [00:05:45] Phil: Yeah. [00:05:46] 1.2 What Companies Can Do Better --- [00:05:46] Phil: So what do you think like companies should be doing better to support the wellbeing of Ops Bros who are kind of quietly carrying a lot of stress? Maybe that's not like visible as as visible as some of the other teams. Like where does your mind go? [00:06:00] Anna: Yeah, I feel like a good start would be following the processes and procedures that ops professionals have implemented at their companies. You know, SLAs are a really good start to that. Um, a lot of times I see. You know, someone's coming back with this, oh this is, this is urgent. So like, I know we have the SLAs, but can we just make an exception this time? [00:06:23] And it's like, if we're making an exception for everything, then we're actually not respecting the process. And you know, as most ops professionals are very process oriented as well. So I think that can add to that, you know, mental strain. Trying to balance, you know, how to be a little bit more agile, but But also follow process as well. [00:06:45] Phil: Yeah, I know we have SLAs, but it's just like I, I'd have a lot of cash if, uh, I had five bucks for every time someone started a Slack message [00:06:54] with [00:06:54] Anna: Oh yeah. And even lately, I've heard the term scrappy, we need to be scrappy with this. [00:07:00] That like, that makes me cringe. [00:07:01] Phil: So like, why are we doing all this planning and like, [00:07:04] Anna: Yeah. [00:07:05] Phil: like all the work, like thinking about, you know, because I don't know about you, but like in some companies, we went through this whole route of like, all right, let's, let's try to be agile, the whole marketing team, let's run this through ops. And we get into a whole like, sprint planning mode. [00:07:19] And we do all this work upfront about prioritizing, deciding what we're gonna do. But there's always shit that comes up, like randomly and displaces what you, and so like I've always struggled with this balance of like, how much time and energy do we spend on planning knowing that like good chunks of that are just gonna go out the window and we're gonna do something else. [00:07:40] 'cause there's gonna be a fire here and a fire there. And. Someone's gonna say, well, you know, I know there's SLAs, but like, why are we spending all this time on planning? Like, you know, I'm, [00:07:50] 1.3 Agility of Planning --- [00:07:50] Phil: I'm an ops person at heart and I know that the importance of planning, but I've been at some companies where it's just like, let's be agile, but also like agile to them means like, not sprint planning and deciding what we're gonna do in like small chunks. [00:08:01] For them it's just like, have room, buffer room in your day to just do what I want you to do. [00:08:08] Anna: Yeah, it's hard to manage that balance of boxing yourself into these requests. For a quarter, for example, um, we historically on the ops team had done quarterly planning where we were doing capacity planning as well. 'cause we do have a lot of external resources. And this is the first quarter where I'm like, we're not doing that anymore because we have too many things that come up. [00:08:30] And then things that come up at the beginning of the quarter and then they just kind of fall flat or they can't be done for x, y, Z reason. So let's just try to be a bit more agile in that. Um, which is hard for me because I'm very like Type A, but it's also like giving up some of that is actually good in the end because it's less stressful as well. [00:08:52] Phil: Yeah. [00:08:53] 2. Why Saying No Strengthens Marketing Operations --- [00:08:53] Phil: So let's talk about like this idea of saying no, uh, I think that, you know, this for some people is seen as kind of like a privilege. Like if you're earlier in your company, you don't really have the opportunity as as much to say no to stuff. Like you're at the bottom of the. The polar, so to speak, and you just like, you get handed work and you're just gonna have to do it. [00:09:12] As you're kind of growing in your career and you've matured in certain aspect and you have, you know, reps in like the industry, you understand certain things like. Maybe you become a bit more comfortable, like calling yourself like quote unquote an expert in certain areas like marketing ops folks often feel like they still have to be Yes people. [00:09:33] It's seen as a service department for so many different companies and jumping on every request from sales or marketing or whatever department. I think the best mops people that I've chatted with. Are known for being no people when it counts. At least like they're not afraid to push back on projects that won't move the needle. [00:09:52] Like they, they aren't like grumpy all the time and say no to everything, just for the sake of saying no. Like there's good reasons and they explain it. [00:10:00] Why? Even when it means like telling higher ups, no, we're not doing this. Do you agree that saying no is often like one of the best things a marketing ops team can do and maybe chat about like how you go about this in a constructive way and like, how do you empower your team members to stick to their guns without, you know, getting overruled. [00:10:17] Anna: For sure. Um, I think this ties back really strongly with mental health. Um, I know I've worked with a therapist for years and boundaries are very important. So boundaries like in your personal life, boundaries in your professional life, I think where you can implement that with mops are boundaries around where you can say no. [00:10:35] So I think it's important to also understand. Why you're saying no. And also it doesn't always have to be no forever. It's just no for right now. So, you know, maybe someone hasn't really thought through what they've requested from mops, for example. So you kind of have to push back and say, Hey, I need this X, Y, and Z to be done before we can actually execute on this. [00:10:56] So I'm gonna say no for now, but please come back to [00:11:00] us when you've actually handled those things. And then we can kind of talk a little bit more on like the strategy. One thing with mops. Historically, I think MOPS has been viewed as a ticket taker. You know, we're we're, we have our forms, we have our, you know, JIRA, Asana boards or whatever. [00:11:19] And I think there's a shift that's happening too, and especially with mops, is how can you position your marketing ops team as a strategic lever for the business versus like the service model historically that we've seen. And I think as you naturally do that. Then it's easier to kind of push back and say no, because you have more of that, you know, um, context, be behind why things are happening as well. [00:11:47] Um, I think it's also important to enable the team to say no too. So I, I actually just had a call today where, um, one of my, um, contractors was going through something talking about [00:12:00] how someone had requested. Something to be done in the email and we don't have the capability to do that right now. And I said, Hey, it's okay to tell them that we can't do this. [00:12:09] We don't need to spend hours figuring out a way to make this work. We just say no, and they will be okay with that. And so just really making it okay for your team to actually push back as well, I think can also help people understand like. There are boundaries with marketing ops. Like we can't do everything, but we can do some things and so we're gonna work with you and figure out the best way forward. [00:12:33] Phil: I often blame. Like the bandwidth that we have sometimes for being able to say no. So like instead of saying no and pushing back on something and being seen as like the grumpy ops person, I will show like our notion board or or usana a board and like these are the things we're working on this sprint or that we've committed to. [00:12:52] And you remember that meeting that we had last week? Chat about these and I asked you like, is there anything else you wanna put on our plate? And [00:13:00] you said no, like that, that's set in stone for now. Like we're not saying no for like the rest of the year, but for now, this is our focus. You've committed to this, we signed off on this. [00:13:10] And you know, if you're changing your mind about it now, like why are we even doing this in the first [00:13:15] Anna: Totally. Yeah. I think, um, with that too, tying back to if your company has goals or KPIs. You know, you can always kind of push back to with that, like, how does this ladder up to a goal? How will this help move the needle forward in what we're trying to accomplish as a company? I think that's also like a way that you can frame it too. [00:13:36] Phil: Yeah, definitely. So like saying no to new requests is, is one thing. Another element that we kinda chatted about before recording here is like pushing back on the way we do certain things. Like [00:13:48] 3. How to Decide When to Push Back in Marketing Operations --- [00:13:48] Phil: I know we share this irritation of. Companies hiring experts, but then ignoring their advice or bulldozing them into bad decisions, like asking someone to do something new is one thing, but then like telling someone to do it and despite like their explanation about why we shouldn't do it, like I faced this. [00:14:07] Countless times in my in-house career. I think it's just like, it's, it's part of the gig. Like there's always gonna be people who think they know marketing better than marketing experts and, um, you know, it's just part of the gig I feel like, and maybe you can share a story or like a battle from your past or your recent past where you were against doing something and how you kinda like navigated that. [00:14:29] Anna: Yeah, we've had a few of these. I mean, I've had a few of these over, you know, my in-house career as well as like agency career as well. Um, I think recent, the most recent example is we had a no reply request for a Marketo email edit. You know, it just makes you like tingle hearing to send from a no reply because there are reasons why you don't do it. [00:14:53] And we've, we've been over this conversation multiple times with various stakeholders and um, you know, [00:15:00] it was one of those instances where it was like, how hard can we do? We just do it and just say we can do it one time, or do we just say no and, you know, hold our foot down, you know? So it's hard to like kind of balance that. [00:15:15] And it's, it's also. I think that most recent example was a really good, um, experience for me. Like with my manager. She was like, you know, we can only take this so far. Like how, how much mental bandwidth are we willing to put into [00:15:29] Phil: Mm-hmm. [00:15:29] Anna: to say no? Um, so that's also like a good consideration too, of just, you know, sometimes it's not worth the battle. [00:15:37] You have to pick your battles as well in marketing ops, and it's like, is that really the one, um, I think, you know, historically too. I've seen this at multiple companies where leadership thinks email is the way to do everything. So they're always, you know, Hey, we need to send this email. It's urgent. And it's like, is email really the best route for this? [00:15:58] Like, I'm [00:16:00] not sure if we should be sending an email for this, but of course, you know, anything that comes from, you know, the sweet C-Suite down, it's hard to kind of push back when they have this idea in their head. You almost have to do it, and then later on with data prove why it wasn't a good idea. So sometimes you do actually have to do the thing and then say, Hey, see why I told you this wasn't a good idea? [00:16:26] So it's kind of like figuring out that balance of like what you're willing to battle. [00:16:31] Phil: Yeah, such a good point. It's easier said than done, like deciding what is like hills that you're willing to to die on for certain things like. There's so many like passion areas of niche topics and marketing ops that maybe you're gonna down this one hill because you've done this project 17 other times in house and external, and you just like, you know how this is gonna go and the person coming to you with this idea understands nothing about it. [00:16:58] Like, my favorite [00:17:00] example is, um, for coworkers listening, like they're, they're gonna know exactly where this is from. Um, but, so I was at a company where. This came down like C level two. So like C level person wanted us to send out an email to people and like resend it to non openers. And this is just like a classic thing. [00:17:21] Like it's just like a one of those tactics and Neil Patella's playbook, like you should do it. And like this read one article you actually sent over an article from Neil Patel. He is like, look, Neil Patel digital market expert says we should do it. And it was just like so cringe having to explain. Why we don't do this, why it's not best practice, and there's like an education piece to like deciding what's the battle you're willing to die on because like you like saying no is one thing, but then explaining, educating, and then just like falling on deaf ears because ultimately they don't really care about. [00:17:54] Deliverability and domain reputation, despite how many times you explain that it's gonna hurt [00:18:00] everyone else's corporate domain rep and Yeah. Like what? [00:18:03] 3.2 Hill To Die On --- [00:18:03] Phil: What comes to mind? Like if I ask you like, what advice do you have for deciding if something is worth like being a hill, you're gonna. You're gonna die on? [00:18:13] Like how do you make that call? Like something comes through that overplay email. Like what's that gut check of? Just like, all right, this is something I believe about. I'm gonna fight for this. Like, I don't want my team to deal with this crap in the future. Versus, you know what? Like, let's just do it. It's gonna take us two minutes. [00:18:27] Like just get it out the door. There's seven other things we can worry about tomorrow. Like what's that gut check for you? [00:18:32] Anna: Yeah, I think it's, you know, a few things. It's obviously there's like a component of, um, the audience, like the person, the stakeholder that you're dealing with, um, and also you understanding like historically, like what, what, what road am I gonna have to take if I say no to this? Am I gonna have to. Is it gonna be a back and forth conversation? [00:18:55] I think like how many hours am I going to actually end up putting into this when it [00:19:00] could just be a simple, okay, we'll do it and we'll show you the results after. Um, so I think it's like one of those like decision trees, you know, deciding if the, what is it called? It's worth the squeeze. I'm not good with like sayings, but, you know. [00:19:17] Phil: Yeah. Yeah. It's something like that. I'm, I'm bad with those things too. Yeah. Um, yeah, like hiring experts and then not trusting them, like, yeah. It, it irritates me to, to no end. Um, and I feel like the worst part of it is that it leads to like an emotional tax of like always having this feeling that you have to prove yourself. [00:19:39] And I feel like this is pretty common thing. And, and marketing ops, like, I don't know. I've always dealt with imposter syndrome, you know, like it's a very technical role. And then you're dealing with like IT and engineers and product engineers and re really quickly, like I felt out of my depths in certain conversations. [00:19:56] But then you talk with marketers and they think you're like a crazy, like [00:20:00] technical magician and it's like a spectrum of technical ability. Right. [00:20:03] 4. How to Handle Constant Pushback in Marketing Operations --- [00:20:03] Phil: Um, I don't know if you've felt this, but like something I've struggled with a lot in-house is that like ops professionals are constantly asked to justify their choices or like backup best practices when they like already know that. [00:20:16] We shouldn't send an email from a no reply or like we shouldn't send an email, the same email to people that didn't open it the first time. Like that cycle, like you mentioned of like the back and forth, like it can chip away at confidence and not just like your energy. Like how do you manage that emotional tax of always potentially having to prove yourself? [00:20:35] And what mental habits do you think protect confidence while still advocating for what's right and what you think is dumb. [00:20:42] Anna: Yeah, I think there's an education piece, so a lot of the times, anytime I'm getting these questions, a good example of this was around sending an email like a few days before Christmas and I. Pushed back and was like, I don't think this is a good idea. [00:21:00] Histor, you know, email rates like engagement during this time is not very good. [00:21:04] And I got pushed back, well, can you show me data that says this? And it, you know, it's just one of those things that, you know, as an ops professional, like you don't send an email the week of Christmas because engagement's going to be low. Like you just don't do that. And so I think there's like an education component but also. [00:21:24] Sometimes, I mean, for me, I just have to kind of like let it kinda roll off my shoulder and laugh about it a little bit because you can't take it too seriously at the end of the day. Sometimes I even, you know, if I'm dealing with like a back and forth with someone, I'll take a break from my computer, I'll walk outside and just sit outside for five minutes and try to get a refresher and then come back with like a fresh mindset to kind of figure out a better way to move forward with certain stakeholders. [00:21:53] It's a really tough, it's hard to kind of balance that, you know, constantly trying to, you know, prove [00:22:00] yourself in this role and, um, show that you're the expert when you're, when you're, it's almost like you're getting attacked with low impact questions, essentially. So it's figuring out like how do you educate people also, like remaining sane as well than not, like losing your mind. [00:22:19] Um, so I think that's really important to kind of like set the scene too as your like marketing team grows and your marketing ops team of, you know, educating people on best practices around email or, you know, why you should do something versus not do something with, um, interacting with customers, for example. [00:22:39] So, yeah, it's just it, this constant, uh, balance of figuring out the best way to keep people educated while also like remaining sane from all the questions that you get as well. [00:22:49] Phil: I think that's great advice. Like not taking things too seriously sometimes like I sometimes you get so passionate about a certain topic and you're down this like rabbit hole debate going back and forth with folks [00:23:00] and you lose sight of the fact that it is like it's been two hours that you're debating this one thing. [00:23:04] You have a bunch of other stuff to do, like. Close a laptop, go for a walk outside, come back and just like, yeah, you know what? Email deliverability is not gonna be the hill I'm dying on today. Like, if this person in it thinks that we should send all emails from the corporate domain, like, all right, whatever. [00:23:20] Like I'll record it in the Slack conversation that this was against marketing ops advice, and if, if this is the hill he wants to die on or she wants to die on, like whatever. Um, yeah. I feel like that's, that's really good advice. Like not taking it too seriously. I've never been at a company where like we were saving babies or like we were doctors. [00:23:39] You know, like, no one's gonna die if we don't send this email tomorrow. Like, it's not that big of a deal, guys. Like, let's, let's just relax a little bit. [00:23:47] Anna: Yes. I always say there's no real emergency in marketing. It's just marketing. Even if it was like a technical like emergency where something was sent to like millions of people, like at the end of the day [00:24:00] it's just an email, you know, or it's just a marketing campaign, it's gonna be okay. Um, so I know probably some like executive leaders will hear me say that and be like, what? [00:24:11] ​ [00:26:07] Phil: One thing that we go back to that helps with some of these things, like not taking it too seriously, but also knowing your worth is something that's a bit easier so than done as you're kind of growing in your career. And, um, I wanted to chat about this bold career move that you made. [00:26:21] Like you left an in-house job after just nine months. Just wasn't the right fit for you. And coming from the agency life where you were like the go-to expert for a bunch of different things, the switch to an in-house company kind of felt like just another cog in the machine was kind of a tough pill to swallow. [00:26:40] I'm sure. Um, at the time you kinda saw the short stint as a failure, but in hindsight it taught you to kinda recognize your value, even gave you like the courage to launch your own consulting gig. What advice do you give other mid-career ops folks or like later on in their career who feel undervalued or kinda stuck in a [00:27:00] bad fit role? [00:27:00] What are your thoughts there? [00:27:02] Anna: Yeah, I'm a big proponent of finding something that's better for you. If it's not the right fit, it's not the right fit. And I think it's okay to recognize that whether, you know, some people recognize that even a month after getting into a company, I recognized it pretty quickly at this role I went into, and I knew it wasn't going to be a forever thing. [00:27:24] So it was almost like planning my exit strategy of like how I was going to approach that. You know, because there's, you know, responsibilities outside of just, um. Me, like I, you know, I have a kid, I have to like, you know, make sure we have, we are stable and things like that. And so, uh, honestly I think like the recognizing your value and if something is not a good fit, it's not worth staying in it for the mental strain as well, uh, because the mental toll that takes on someone and the burnout creates such quick burnout if you're not happy in your role, because [00:28:00] at the end of the day. [00:28:01] Life's too short. You should find something that you enjoy doing. And I know people might roll their eyes and say like, easier said than done, but I've found a role that I really love. And so I think it's, you know, once you find what you're looking for, I think it's easier to kind of see, you know, in hindsight, it was easier to find than you may have expected. [00:28:24] Phil: Yeah, great advice. I, I have like small number of, um, mentors on the side that like, throughout my career, like I've had a bunch of different men. Tour, and I do this kind of for free, and I, I get this a lot like people saying like, oh, you know, like I always wonder if the grass is greener on the other side, but you know, it takes so much time to update your resume and like fill out applications and like, I, I don't even think of it as like you need to. [00:28:50] Take that step and update your resume and actually apply to jobs, but just the exercise of looking at what else is out there just helps when you [00:29:00] feel down or stuck in your current role. Even in this like crazy job market that we're in right now, like there are other opportunities out there and like our role is in demand. [00:29:09] It's complex. Like there's a small subset percentage of people on this planet that can do what we do and it, it's easy sometimes to like lose. Grasp at that. Especially when you hear from people that you know, they were laid off and they can't find another job. I think that just the exercise of like, thinking about like, all right, maybe I don't love what I'm doing right now. [00:29:28] What is the upside look like? Like what would I be really excited about? Like what are some of the values that I'm missing in this current role? What do I don't like about my manager? Like I think nine outta 10 times you leave a job, it's usually because of the manager. Um, like, and like thinking of things like, alright, if I was to change jobs. [00:29:47] What would I ask this potential hiring manager to make sure that like, I don't fall under this trap again. Um, and like I, [00:29:55] 5.2 Wishlist --- [00:29:55] Phil: I've thought about this a lot also throughout the career, just like coming up with a list of things that are like must haves in, in a new job and like early on, even like pre-screen interview at the recruiter. [00:30:07] Like, I ask some of these things like, do you guys. Like, how flexible are you guys on asynchronous work? Like how many meetings are on the calendar? And if it's like a hard like, oh yeah, we don't really know what async is, like, hard pass for me. You know, like, what, what are some of those questions for you to help you identify? [00:30:24] Is this gonna be a right fit for you? [00:30:26] Anna: Yeah, I worked with a professional coach a few years ago and we, this was when I, um, had been consulting for a while, but it was kind of like at this point where I was like, is this sustainable? And I was considering going in-house at that time and she was working with me and we made a, a list of non-negotiables. [00:30:44] So those were like the one, like the list of things that I would not accept. Um, you know, for me as a parent, it's the flexibility to like be involved in my child's life and be at school events and, you know, kind of leaning into that a bit more. [00:31:00] So if there's no flexibility, um, I'm not going to likely take a role that doesn't offer that kind of flexibility. [00:31:06] So I think it's really like thinking through what are your true, like four to five non-negotiables for a role that would suit your lifestyle. And writing those down and then identifying companies that might not be a good fit. Um, and a lot of times you can actually find that in, you know, how the company presents itself. [00:31:27] Um, I know Alma, um, I, I joined Alma as a contractor at first, so I was a contractor for two years before I joined full-time. Um, and I knew Alma was a mental health company, but, you know, kind of, I got, I got the chance to kind of see how Alma worked before actually joining full time. But I know everything that Alma says that they are, you know, on paper was true. [00:31:48] And so I actually have found that to be very reflective of, you know, how a company identifies themselves in job postings, for example. Um, you know, what their emphasis on, you know, [00:32:00] employees are, you know, how they, how they support their employees, you know, what they're doing. So I think that's really important to kind of identify those non-negotiables and really figure out if a company's a good match. [00:32:11] You can get a lot of insight too on Glassdoor for sure. A different company. [00:32:16] Phil: Yeah, so true. Glassdoor is a, a gold mine. Sometimes, like, uh, I, I often would look at it too late in the interview process and it's just like, oh man, why didn't I think of checking this out before this, like, totally confirms some of my suspicions [00:32:31] Anna: Mm-hmm. [00:32:32] Phil: yellow flags that I had in the interview process. [00:32:34] Like now, they're now officially red flags and I'm probably gonna pass on this now. [00:32:38] Anna: Right. Yeah. So, and I think too, just being aware of those yellow flags, like if something doesn't feel right, it probably isn't right. And like, really trusting your intuition with those kinds of things, no matter. I mean, I think it, it, it's, it kind of sucks sometimes with like looking for a job. 'cause you might be so desperate to get out of what you're doing that you're [00:33:00] like, oh, it's a yellow flag. [00:33:01] I could probably deal with it. You should probably trust your intuition. You don't want to hop from like one bad situation to another bad situation. 'cause that's just really gonna take a toll on your mental health. So I think too, identifying those yellow flags as well, and um, listening to your self. [00:33:19] Phil: Yeah, I think that's really great advice. I, I feel like we're, you know, speaking from a bit of a place of privilege, but I love what you did, which was like you created your own. You know, like you were working for yourself, you were doing your own like freelancing, and you found a company through contracting that you liked working with, and you kind of developed that. [00:33:43] I feel like companies that do this well in the interview process is. It's tricky, like, so I had a short stint at WordPress Automatic and, and they actually do this as part of the interview process. They call it like a trial period. And it's super intensive and they kind of tell you this upfront, [00:34:00] but they pay people for it. [00:34:01] And it's not like a crazy fee or anything, but it's not like free labor. So they tell you like, I forget exactly if it's. Two weeks or how long it is? I think it's two weeks, but for the course of two weeks, like you work in a real case scenario with the company and your hiring manager, they invite you into like their Slack org and they're all, all asynchronous. [00:34:20] So it's like around the clock you can, you have to do this on your personal time often, unless you like you're out of a job, but you basically get to like work with your hiring manager and a bunch of other people on the team. You submit work and people like give you feedback and you can get a sense of other people on the team based on their feedback. [00:34:38] And I dunno, it's like a trial that's like both ways. And I feel like you kind of got that with your consulting experience. You got to meet a bunch of those people and like if you don't like it when you're consulting, like whatever, it's, it's easy to kind of cut ties there. But I feel like it's so hard sometimes when you're doing this interview process. [00:34:54] It's all about. Them asking you questions and not enough of the onus is on the [00:35:00] person. Like it's a two-way street during the interviews. And sometimes like people forget that and you know, you like it's Yeah. Sometimes easier said than done when you're like, kinda like you said, like desperate to, to find a job there. [00:35:11] But yeah, I, I like the, I like your approach there, like doing consulting before you kinda go in. [00:35:17] Anna: Yeah, I uh, it's funny you mentioned the questions part. I actually, when I'm interviewing someone, I like encourage them to ask questions and I want them to come with questions and a lot of times you'll find people don't really come with anything, which I always find surprising. It's like this is for you to interview the company as well and see if it's a good fit and really dig in on some of those questions. [00:35:40] I've had, um, I did have one interview within the past six months and the guy came with like some really like pressing questions and I was like, this is impressive. 'cause he wants to know if we have the data infrastructure set up to really support his role. Um, and so I thought that was really interesting, um, and really impressive like an interview [00:36:00] process as well. [00:36:01] Phil: Yeah, in the best case scenario, you have a friend or a friend of a friend on the inside who can kinda like vet those answers because even when you come with really good questions about the data infrastructure and like, do people trust the experts that they hire? Like it, it's, it's. Those people like wanna hire the best people. [00:36:19] So like they're not getting oftentimes, like I have had experiences where like someone was really candid sometimes and ended up like, not moving forward, but like, like they're, they're selling the company too, right? So like if, if like you work at a company where. You know, the founders like constantly tell you what to do and dismiss your, your MOPS expertise. [00:36:39] And someone asks you like, that question, is this, does this happen at your company? Like, ugh, like, you're such a sellout. Like, why are you even like hiring for this role if you're like openly admitting like, yeah, you know, we're working on this. Um, but, you know, it's, it's a tough pill. But if you have a friend on the inside, you can kinda say like, yo, like, uh, during the interview process they said like, they're this and that. [00:36:59] Like, can you [00:37:00] validate this? So yeah, easier said than done. Right. [00:37:02] Anna: Uh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Connections are important. [00:37:05] Phil: Yeah. Um, all right. [00:37:06] 6. How to Use Asynchronous Communication to Reduce Stress --- [00:37:06] Phil: Let, let's chat about like, you know, o other like rituals to, to protect mental health that, that kind of come to mind here. And like there, there's maybe like some smaller things that safeguard mental health, whether it's like how you start your day, how you manage Slack or teams, how you shut down at night. [00:37:21] Like do you have any personal rituals that keep you steady and like the chaos of marketing ops, how could others kind of experiment with, uh, similar practices or anything come to mind? [00:37:32] Anna: I every day during the work week, I. Start with like a two to three mile walk with my dogs. So I do that like as soon as I drop my son at school, I come home and walk the dogs and I'll listen to a podcast or whatever as I'm walking to kind of just make sure I'm like in a good head space. Usually it's not marketing ops related because I don't want anything associated with work before I'm actually working. [00:37:57] Phil: Yeah, don't blame you. [00:37:59] Anna: yeah. And [00:38:00] then Slack is, I've actually, you know, I think. Having the consulting experience that I've had, um, I've been able to manage like a very healthy work life balance. So I, you know, when I was a consultant, I worked certain hours and then I was cut for the day. Like I didn't check email or anything like that. [00:38:19] And so that kind of has transferred into my professional life. I do have Slack on my phone. Sometimes I'll take it off if I'm like feeling the mental stress, but, um. It's usually like at a certain point in the day, I am not checking after a certain point, or if I do see a message, I don't have notifications coming through, so I have to actually like physically go check it myself. [00:38:42] But if I do see a message, I, I make a, a choice to not answer it until the next day. Because sometimes too, I think if you see a message coming after hours, it might get you like a little heated based off of the context. I think giving yourself that time to kind of. You know, [00:39:00] fizzle out a little bit and, and think how you're going to respond. [00:39:02] I think that's super helpful to come back fresh the next day. So I think being a parent helps in this like work life balance. 'cause you have to cut it off at a certain point. Especially with my son being nine. Like, he'll straight up say, mom, why are you on your phone? Like, so. [00:39:19] Phil: Calling you out. [00:39:20] Anna: Yeah, so that's been like really eye-opening recently. [00:39:23] So I think I'm way more cognizant of like making sure I'm not on my phone when it's family time at the end of the day. [00:39:30] Phil: Yeah. This is such an area that I, I need to work on. Like I'm listening to your answer and I'm like, shit, like, my daughter's not old enough to call me out, but like she, she would call me out like multiple times if she did, and I feel like it's. I don't know if it was easier when I was in house, but when I was in house, like tons of responsibilities. [00:39:48] But you know, like the company paid me for working a certain amount of hours. Right. And like at a certain time, like you said, I, I clock out whether you like consult or whatever, but then. When you work [00:40:00] for yourself, there's all these other things like potential prospects and sales conversations and accounting. [00:40:07] And so other than the work, like there's tons of other things going on and yeah, I'm like making excuses for it there, but I think that's, that's great advice. Like when you open your phone. Knowing that there could be a message in Slack there that could derail the rest of your evening. Like when you send out, especially like when you, you're like you're about to clock out. [00:40:25] You send out this proposal or this thing that you were supposed to do and you're expecting someone to write back and you're just like, oh, do I take the next like 20 minutes reading that response now in the evening and it potentially like, ruining the rest of my night? Or like, do it just like close that off, like I can open it tomorrow. [00:40:42] Like that's a mindful decision that you make and I love that you don't have notifications on that's. That's awesome. [00:40:47] Anna: Yeah. I only have notifications for text messages and phone calls. I don't like notifications. It's a way to like not be connected to my phone. I don't have any social media on my phone anymore. I made like a cognizant [00:41:00] choice. So I think those are like little like personal things that I've done to kind of help maintain that balance as well. [00:41:06] Um, but yeah, it's hard. I mean, it's hard, especially in, in s role because you have a lot of plates that you're trying to juggle at one time. Um, and a lot of people are demanding things of you, but I make it very. My calendar is very like, do not block, do not this time. Like do. So I'm really good about that as well. [00:41:29] Um, and I also like contributing to my no person personality. I say no to meetings a lot, so if I don't feel like if I have a lot going on and I do not have the mental bandwidth for another meeting, like I will say no without. I don't, I don't give context either. I'm just like, I can't make this meeting. [00:41:48] Like that's, that should be enough if, and if you really need me, like you can reach out to me on Slack. So I feel like Async, you have to figure out how to work async, especially in like a remote [00:42:00] world that we're in today too. [00:42:02] Phil: Yeah, I love that. Saying no to meetings without even giving context. Like especially when there's no agenda on the meetings. I had a, an old coworker that was just like, no agenda, no agenda for me. Sorry, friend. Like, not even a message in Slack, like just no context. Here's a meeting invite for an hour on a Tuesday, like. [00:42:19] Over a do not book time. Sorry man. I, I would oftentimes just have like a, in Google calendar, like auto decline in like my do not block times [00:42:29] Anna: same. [00:42:29] Phil: people would just be like, Hey, I just got an auto decline for, for this. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I'm, I don't take meetings on Tuesday. Like, deal with it. [00:42:37] Anna: Yeah. And I think too, sometimes, you know, I push back, they, they, someone wants to have a meeting to talk about one email. I'm like, you should be able to explain this to me [00:42:47] Phil: Yeah. [00:42:48] Anna: in a, in an As ticket, like I shouldn't. If you should be able to explain with enough detail and then if I have questions, I can come to you and ask or clarify in the Asana ticket. [00:42:59] We don't [00:43:00] need to have a meeting about an email, [00:43:02] Phil: I love that. That's kind of the art of Async, right? Like it's oftentimes people just default to a synchronous meeting because they haven't formulated this idea in their head yet, and they're just looking to speak out loud to someone. Get minor validation, but really they're just like getting like to speak out loud and they could have just done that on their own, formulated their thoughts a bit better, written it down succinctly, and then you send it off to that person and they can answer on their own time. [00:43:34] When they have time, when they're out of like deep focus mode. That's the thing with like synchronous, like it's all about the requester. Like when you send a message and it's like, Hey, do you have five minutes to chat right now? Like it's. You're asking this person to stop what they're doing and it's just like, it's not cool. [00:43:49] Anna: No, it's not cool. That's why I love tools like Loom. So Loom gives people, I mean, it helps asynchronous work so much. So you can go through something. Ask [00:44:00] questions on the video and then send it to someone and then you can interact with them on the loom as well. So I love using tools like that to kind of go back and forth and if something is like really pressing where like we're just not getting it through these tools, like that gets to a point where you might have to have like a short five minute conversation, but it doesn't need to be a 30 minute meeting. [00:44:21] Phil: Yeah, a hundred percent. [00:44:24] 7. How To Evaluate Martech Tools Based On Real Business Impact --- [00:44:24] Phil: Uh, let's chat about shiny object syndrome. Like in MarTech and ops, there's always something shiny new that people are chasing. You know, especially in the age of AI these days, like there's a hot strategy or new tool and everyone on LinkedIn can't stop talking about it. FOMO is really real in, in marketing ops and, and MarTech. [00:44:44] And I feel like you've seen the waves come and go like one quarter everyone's really hot on like PLG or Gentech AI or this, or like MCP and the magic bullet, right? And the next quarter it's kind of something else. We all remember things like [00:45:00] frenzy out and, and f fizzling out. How do you keep your head on straight and mid, like. [00:45:04] All the buzz and the chatter in our eco chamber with, when it comes to like MarTech, do you have like a personal filter for separating, like what's actually valuable versus just hype and like how can ops team kind of avoid chasing every trend instead of just like staying focused on what actually moves the needle for the business? [00:45:23] This, [00:45:24] Anna: Yeah, I think tools are funny in space because people become almost like cult-like around certain tools. So I remember you probably remember the drift craze [00:45:34] Phil: Yeah, for [00:45:35] Anna: Like it was like everyone was getting. This Drift certification and everyone was getting this tool and having these chatbots added onto their website, and then like you implement one, one time and you're like, I never wanna do this ever again. But then you see like things that happened recently with Drift, um, where it just spontaneously combusted apparently, and Poof is [00:46:00] gone because of some security issue. After getting bought. So it's, you know, I try not to put my all my eggs in one basket for one specific tool. Do I have my preferences for marketing automation platforms? [00:46:14] Yes, I do, but that doesn't mean I'm not open to the idea of other ones. So when I'm thinking of tooling, especially like I'm, I'm thinking of a business case behind why we need a specific tool. So, and, and what's it going to help? So. For example, NAC is a good tool, um, that we are actually about to implement, which is really exciting. [00:46:37] And one thing that NAC does well is it's gonna remove a lot of process friction between creative and mops and the stakeholder that's requesting whatever email. So that's how I'm kind of approaching different tools like that and like how it can actually help us remove process friction and also increase efficiencies. [00:46:55] So I don't really get like attached to certain tools. As much. I like seeing the [00:47:00] chatter, you know, on LinkedIn, you know, clay is another one that everyone's like obsessing about. Um, and so it's just funny to kind of like observe and see what people say, um, and then kind of just make your own decisions based off of the business case of what your company needs. [00:47:15] Phil: Yeah. Such a great answer. Um, I, I used to like, when I was in house, uh, like back in like Drift was still like really popular at the time, I guess. But like one of the questions that. Um, the CMO that was hiring with me would ask interview candidates is like, oh, what's like a MarTech company that, uh, is doing really well right now that you like, you, you like, you'd love their brand. [00:47:40] Building or, or whatever. And I would always add at the end of that, but you can't say drift because like everyone would just default to [00:47:47] drift. Like, oh, I love what Drift is doing. And no, no shade to, uh, Dave Gerhard. Like, I think he's, he's building something cool at, at Exit five now, and he, he did his time at Drift. [00:47:56] But yeah, it's, it's so true. Like Clay is definitely [00:48:00] in that same. Bold now as well. Um, you know, lovable, there's all these like AI apps also, so yeah, it's a, it's a weird time to be in MarTech and I feel like it's getting harder and harder to disassociate with like, what is vaporware versus like hype, like knowing. [00:48:18] All these tools, it's so easy to like have a GPT wrapper on top of your product and it's like, oh, we have this like, new AI feature, but we really just implemented an MCP server and we're like on top of not even GPT five, it's like GPT-4 0.5 here. So, but yeah, I appreciate the, the knack. Shout out there unprompted, uh, sponsor of the show. [00:48:37] Appreciate that. Um, I, I wanna ask you a couple more questions, Anna. Um. So this idea, oh, we kind of tease this out already, but like, um, [00:48:45] 8. Why Marketing Ops Needs Visible Work Systems --- [00:48:45] Phil: I'm a big fan of thinking about quiet stress versus visible stress. I feel like people that are in like. Marketing campaign manager roles or like sales teams, even like people that are on the front lines of doing things, like they get a ton of recognition when they get big wins or the company is doing well, like the KPIs that they have are all very visible. [00:49:05] The whole company kind of sees it. Um, but marketing ops teams, stress usually stays invisible. Like when sales are down and like campaign metrics are down, like everyone sees it. ~Everyone's like, oh shit. Should like reassure or motivate my sales team. Everyone's seen it,~ but like marketing ops, when things are super stressful, like there's tons of projects and there's like milestone lag, like no one really sees that. [00:49:23] It's not like a corporate KPI that's tracked on like the all company dashboard. How can marketing ops pros make the invisible stress of their work visible in a way that leads to more support instead of, you know, just making it feel like there's complaints. [00:49:40] Anna: Yeah, I think proactively. Um, I'm trying to think of a good way to say this, like proactively letting your team know kind of what your team is working on. Um, so we do this in Asana, so we have, you know, like a portfolio of everything we're working on, so it's easy for people to see and get [00:50:00] updates when we update a project. [00:50:02] So I think we've done a really good job at Alma to kind of make that visibility known of everything that Marketing Ops is working on, and also our separate board of like the BAU type work that comes through, um, with like the day-to-day tickets. Things that are outside of like the bigger projects that we're working on. [00:50:21] So we have like visibility to say this is everything that we're working on currently. Um, and you know, providing proactive updates to team members as well to kind of make that, you know, a little bit more known in terms of like what marketing ops is truly working on. 'cause it. You have your hand in a lot of different pots in marketing ops cross-functionally as well. [00:50:43] So you're, you're not only like a marketing resource, but you're a cross-functional resource. You work closely with data engineering, you work closely with bi, so it's coming up with a way to kind of educate, you know, your team, especially in marketing, to kind of see like everything that your team is [00:51:00] helping with and kind of move the needle forward on. [00:51:02] I think just being proactive, making that more visible, I think is helpful so people have context of. Why you don't have bandwidth to take anything else on. [00:51:12] Phil: Yeah, great answer. I feel like ops leaders often think their job is to protect systems, but protecting people is probably just as important, you know, human as a MarTech, but [00:51:24] 8.2 Health Awareness --- [00:51:24] Phil: how do you intentionally. Weave this idea of like mental health awareness into your leadership style, like mental health as a leadership skill, and what can marketing ops managers or team leaders do to normalize conversations about stress workload on their teams? [00:51:40] Like oftentimes if you're complaining about certain things, like, oh, you're gonna be branded as like a complainer, or someone that doesn't have good work ethic. Like how do you like normalize discussions about mental health? [00:51:52] Anna: Yeah, with my team members, what I'm usually doing when in our one-on-ones to start is just like a [00:52:00] check-in to say, Hey, how are things going? Is there anything you know might be causing more stress or blocking you from being able to proceed on other things? I do think there's a balance though, and I read an article recently about you don't wanna become your, um, your team member's, therapist as their manager. [00:52:19] So it's like balancing, like making sure that your team member is not stressed and unblocking them where you can, but also making sure that they have ways to advocate for themselves and their team so that they can build that, you know, more strategic, cross-functional relationship as well. So I think there's like a balance there too, of. [00:52:39] Wanting to support your team members and making sure you can be that person that can help unblock them as their leader, but also giving them the tools in their toolbox to also, you know, advocate for themselves and their work as well. I think that's important too. [00:52:56] Phil: And [00:52:56] 9. How to Recognize and Prevent Burnout in Marketing Operations --- [00:52:56] Phil: I got one last question for you. We ask this to everyone like. Comes on the podcast, oftentimes we'll have like a big discussion about like, uh, marketing strategy or marketing ops or whatever. And then this is the only like human kind of question. Uh, but we've kind of talked about the human side of things in the whole episode here. [00:53:14] And so this is maybe like a summary of, of some of the stuff that you've chatted about here, but. You're director of marketing ops at a really cool mental health company. You're obviously a team leader, but at home you're also a mother of a 9-year-old. You're a sports mom, you a tennis fanatic as well. One question we ask ever on the show is, how do you remain happy and successful in your career, and how do you find balance between all the things you're working on while staying happy and caring about your mental health? [00:53:40] Anna: Yeah. Oh, this is a great one. I think, you know, all of those things that I have going on outside of work, being a mom kind of helps with the balance between work and life, um, but then also making sure that. Um, I'm not burning myself out too much, so being able to recognize when I'm [00:54:00] feeling, you know, a little bit too much, um, proactively taking time off, I'm really, I think that's one thing that consulting helps me [00:54:08] Phil: Hmm. [00:54:09] Anna: figure out is like the balance of like taking time off. [00:54:11] And I'm really good about taking time off now and prioritizing, you know, family time. As well. So I think just recognizing when I'm starting to feel stressed, I also, you know, I'm not, I'm not shy to address it with my manager directly. So I think it's important to call it out and say, Hey, I'm feeling the weight of everything. [00:54:31] Um, you know, your team might be going through like drastic changes, you know, sometimes there are like team consolidations. There's. New tech that you're absorbing or new tech that you're implementing and it can just build on after time. And so I think recognizing that and calling it out is important and also helps you build like that human relationship as well with your manager. [00:54:53] 'cause at the end of the day, we are all humans and it's important to recognize that we do need some time away from work 'cause we [00:55:00] can't burn us out in the end. [00:55:03] Phil: Great answer. Everyone you work with is a human, at least for now, for the short term TBD on that. Um, and that's a super fun. I really appreciate your time, uh, for folks in the us. Uh, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll put links to, to Alma. I think it's a super cool resource. Uh, I'm based in, in Canada. And, uh, would've loved to work at a company that, um, gave me access to, to services like that. [00:55:29] Um, encourage folks to take mental health seriously in their jobs. Like it is a super high stress job, especially if you're in like startup or scale up and you know, where close to profitability and marketing ops isn't like. The team that's being associated with like growth and numbers and ROI. So it's, it's a tough gig out there. [00:55:48] And, um, I think something we didn't touch on too, too much is like this idea of community and, um, I think like some of the strategies that you brought forth here were, um, really valuable for, for folks in our community. So thanks for [00:56:00] taking a bit of time during crazy planning. Really appreciate it. [00:56:02] Anna: Yeah. Thank you. This was fun to chat.