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We're back. In this episode we discuss how to perform the penultimate step in two foot jumping.
Isaiah Rivera, pro dunker, and John Evans discuss anything related to maximizing athletic performance, and in particular, jump training. Strength and conditioning, jumping technique, weight room practices, and general fitness and health tips and advice are shared on this podcast.
Oh, what is up THP family? Today, we are doing a podcast for the very first time with Connor Bart, a part of the team. Probably the first one in I don't even know how many months. Isaiah
Isaiah:Let's just call this one episode one.
John:This is episode one. This is like Steven Sully's Dunk Journey where he, like, changed his mind.
Connor:This is season two.
John:Season two. Season two. Do we wanna address why we deleted the podcast and bring it back? Mean, we've already touched on it, but, like, one of the biggest reasons why is because one, we got so much good feedback about the podcast, like, months later, which, like, is kinda frustrating because it's, well, we stopped doing the podcast because, like, it didn't seem like anyone liked it, then all of a sudden, everyone loved it. So it was, like, I'm doing all these podcasts.
John:I'm spending, like, an hour a day doing them and editing them, like, another hour, and it doesn't seem like anyone's listening to them. So that's kinda where we got away from it.
Isaiah:Heroes that Instagram deserved, but not the one it it needed. No. It's the one it needed, but not the one it deserved.
John:Yeah. We're the we're the hero that Instagram needed, but not the one that it deserved. That's very true. And I think I mean, I think it's good that we're that we're back and we're doing it. And we have Connor now, a part of the team, which is super exciting.
John:So we'll we'll be able to talk about a lot of different content. I know my biggest issue is that I need to let other people give input sometimes, so that's something I need to work on. We'll have a bunch of new guests. Any other updates for the podcast? I don't know.
John:Like it to be open format. I'm fat. What'd you say?
Isaiah:I'm fat.
John:You're fat. Oh, yeah. Okay. So we'll give you guys life updates because we haven't really done this. Everyone's like, what are guys doing?
John:I don't see anything going on. Yeah. Because we're busy coaching our job. Anyways, Isaiah is fat right now, apparently. Isaiah, do you wanna go ahead and just let us know why you're fat?
Isaiah:Yeah. So I just took a break from training and dunking for two weeks for the that's the longest break I've had, basically. Probably for, like, two years, I wanna say, aside from injuries. It's actually happened a lot because of injuries, but but aside from injuries, the longest break. And I weighed myself, like, two days ago, and I was almost one ninety.
Isaiah:Nice.
John:I'm in the lab, bro. Anyways
Isaiah:So, yeah, I weighed myself, and I was almost one ninety. And then John freaked out. He was like, what the hell have you been doing? And
John:What have you been doing? Yeah.
Isaiah:So my girlfriend came to visit me who I haven't seen in months. While she was here, I realized that I basically starved myself in my daily life because, like, we actually started eating three meals a day like you're supposed to. And after every meal, like, I couldn't, like, I couldn't eat all the food. It it was literally more food than I was used to. And, like, it it was to the point where I was, like, actually sick to my stomach because, like, I was eating too much.
Isaiah:So for the first, like, three or four days, I, like, couldn't eat. And then I started thinking about wine. It's because I literally just like, I'll work till one without eating, eat a bowl of cereal, train, and then eat, like, then eat, like, one more time.
John:I was gonna say, usually, we'll eat a bowl of cereal mid work because you're like, can't do it anymore. I gotta eat, and that's just what you do. I don't know So, what
Isaiah:yeah, I just haven't been used to eating. And yeah. And the past two weeks, I've been actually eating, like, three meals a day like I'm supposed to, plus not training. So yeah. But but look.
John:How many are not gonna pull your abs up right now? Oh my god. Wow. I I just No
Connor:joke. I actually just experienced that exact same thing, like, for the last two or three weeks where I'm eating, like, way more because I'm not really training or jumping. But, like, I don't think I've put on much weight. Probably, like, five pounds, but, I mean, same thing. It's, like,
John:still Wow. Bart, I can't see with the oh, you do have abs.
Connor:I still have abs just in case anyone's like
John:Wow. Look at that.
Isaiah:That's a bad lighting too. That was bad lighting for abs.
John:No. You're in the office bro. Well, the lighting in the office is just not good. The lighting in the lab is very solid. Wow.
John:For the for the viewers on YouTube, I'm glad you could all see that.
Connor:That's the that's the thumbnail. Isaiah is fat. Yeah.
John:That was alright. Great. That's me.
Isaiah:Welcome to the THP podcast. That's so annoying.
John:Yeah. Literally, the madness ensues, and this is usually how it goes. Anyway, so that's Isaiah's update. My update, I really have not been training either. Actually, I took a short break as well for personal reasons.
John:And where'd you go?
Isaiah:That's all of us been lazy for two weeks.
John:Yeah. And Barth Barth is still managing his knee, so he's also been not training that much either. Last two weeks, yeah, a lot of stuff has, like, happened. So we are yeah. I don't know.
John:Any any other updates? Probably moving to Pittsburgh. That's that's part of something. So if you're in Pittsburgh and you're listening to this and you wanna connect, well, feel free to do that, I guess. Connor, anything else with with you?
John:Anything new?
Connor:I'm not moving anywhere. And I haven't been posting to Instagram much, but you can look forward to that ramping up now starting this week.
Isaiah:That's something new as Connor's part of the team as well.
Connor:That's true. I guess it doesn't feel new to me anymore because it's already been, like, a few weeks.
John:For the viewers.
Isaiah:For the viewers. Aside from us announcing on Instagram, we haven't really, like, put anything out public, like, with all three of us yet.
Connor:So yeah.
John:Is for the first time,
Isaiah:John has disappeared into another dimension.
Connor:Oh, he's running back to
John:that lab. Yeah. I went in the lab. I was back in the lab doing some work in the lab. Had to run some some tests on my petri dishes, looking at tendons underneath the microscope.
John:No. I'm kidding. The COVID updates. Any COVID updates? Nothing really, guys.
John:The world's still shut down. Congratulations. I predicted this in March.
Isaiah:It's actually comical. Not really. We started the podcast. It was right when COVID was, like, at its peak. Like, right when not its peak, but when stuff started, like
Connor:Shutting really close down.
Isaiah:That's why we started the podcast. We literally had nothing to do.
John:Literally, we started the podcast because of COVID. Anyways, I feel like that's enough of our personal lives updating and things like that. So my hair is a mess right now. Don't worry about it. Anyways, we're going with some different topics today.
John:What we're not gonna talk we a couple different ones. I'm gonna delete the first one. Maybe we'll talk about that later. But as we go, you as you guys know, we get really off track, so we're gonna do our best to stay on track, but it probably won't happen that way. So I wanna talk about the penultimate step because especially specifically for two foot jumping.
John:And the reason why is because so many people don't understand what it does, how it's used, how to do it correctly, common mistakes. Like, no matter how much we talk about it, I feel like people don't get it. So I wanna turn this over to you guys. Isaiah, you said this a little while back, and this is something I learned since probably the last time we podcasted. But what do you think about when you're grounding your penalties?
John:Actually, when you do a jump in general, and maybe this this actually shows you how important the penalty step is. Didn't you previously communicate to me that the only thing you think about is basically the penultimate step, like
Isaiah:Yeah. Yeah. So I basically I don't think at all during the run. I'm just staying relaxed. And then as soon as my right foot hits the ground, I just think about pushing hard and taking a super big step for the penultimate, and that's it.
Isaiah:And then the rest kinda just takes care of itself.
John:Yeah. So do you think, like
Isaiah:That's the only, like, thing that I'm, like, consciously, like, like, almost, like, actively, like, pushing. You know what I mean? Everything else, like, kinda flows and is relaxed.
John:Does it feel like a big push? Does it feel like upright sprinting? Does it feel like acceleration? What kinda, like it feel like it's feels
Isaiah:like the first step in a sprint, getting out of the three point stance.
John:Really?
Connor:Yeah. That's
Isaiah:actually That's how I
Connor:would describe that also.
John:That's actually really, really insightful.
Connor:Okay. In
Isaiah:terms of Imagine you're running imagine you're running, right, like, on flat ground and then there's stairs, and, like, you step on the first stair and then you take a big, like, leap up the stairs.
John:You try oh, that is one
Connor:of Or or imagine you're running into a pool and then, like, you know, you jump into the pool by just running into it. So you take that, like, huge last step and you just extend into the pool, but don't take another step. Like
John:Like, you're jumping into a pool is what you're saying? Like, as far as you can? Like, a long jump, like, into a cannonball?
Connor:Yeah. Like that's that's how it feels doing
Isaiah:that into the ground.
John:Oh, that's actually crazy. So it's like when you jump into the pool, like you're doing a cannonball as far as you can or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Still jumping up.
Isaiah:You're trying to stay as close to the water as possible.
John:Is that what you feel like, Bart?
Connor:Yeah. Like, it's like I am I am jumping as far as I can, but not going up at all. That's that's what it feels like.
Isaiah:Yeah. You're like a bottom feeder in the in the bottom of
John:the You're to, like, run across the water?
Isaiah:Yeah. Yeah.
Connor:No. That I bet if you actually went and tried to, like, take a giant step and push into the water like you were gonna run across it, that that is exactly what it feels like.
John:Maybe we're gonna start integrating that as a drill. I always like these questions because I think a lot of the time, like when I was at Altus specifically, you know, you'd be working with these pro sprinters, guys that run like 10 o and a 100, literally nine seventy one or nine and nine seventy nine is what Andre DeGrasse ran. So he's literally one of the fastest guys ever in the history of the world. And he's like, you know, coming out of blocks and his rhythms crazy and he's hitting the ground super hard and he's super volitional. And I'm like, okay, listen to the coach like rhythm, positions, or what is it?
John:They always used to say projection angle, rhythm, and I
Connor:don't know
John:if it was propulsion. No. That's not what they talked about. It was always like pushing or something like how far you displaced out of the first block. I think it was like pushing or was projection, rhythm, and then projection angle or something or angle.
John:So they would talk about how well you pushed out, the angle, and all this shit, but they never talked about what it felt like. And I'm like asking the guys. I'm like, yo. Well, I pulled Jeremy Dodson aside. He's like a really fast sprinter.
John:He runs for Samoa. And I'm like, what does it feel like? Like, what are you thinking about? What what are the what sensations do you get? Because, like, as a high jumper, one of the things that always made me better as a jumper when it comes to coordination, you have to be able to feel things.
John:Like, you have to know what feels right. Because when you're doing it, you're gonna feel the jump. Like, you're gonna feel your foot behind you. That's proprioception. You know what mean?
John:Knowing where your limbs are in space. And then, like, the more that I kinda chase that sensation, whatever that feels like, the the better it got. So for you guys, like what you said, Joe, it feels like you're running across water. Or Isaiah, like you said, it feels like, you know, you're jogging up to some stairs and you get to that first step and you try to take as cover as many steps as you possibly can up the stairs as possible. Right?
John:You know, those are some different sensations. Like, you know, I I think that that creates some context into people's head because everyone's ran upstairs before. Everyone's tried to cover as many stairs. Everyone's jumped into a pool. Like, those are easy things to relate to.
John:So in terms of coaching, it creates like some context. I don't know if you guys have any comments on that.
Connor:Yeah. I mean, I think that's the biggest problem I've run into with people is it's one of two things, right, when it comes to the penultimate step. So either they don't extend fully, which I think y'all probably see that a ton too. Or they they extend fully, but they extend up it like a slight diagonal instead of like their hips should drop some, their hips go up because they actually like hop. You don't literally wanna hop up into the air.
John:Yeah. They jump in the takeoff.
Connor:They jump in
John:the front foot.
Connor:But like those people, if they just push forward instead of that slight up, they're fixed. And then the other people is just having to, like, mentally get the sensation of just fully extending.
Isaiah:I've been giving because I've been seeing that problem a lot recently, the hopping into it. You can really tell when somebody hops into it if the angle of their plant leg is really big, you know, like the angle, like, to the ground You
John:mean their shin angle?
Isaiah:Yeah. The shin angle. The shin angle to the ground.
John:So if it's like really vertical, you're saying?
Isaiah:Yeah. Yeah. You can tell someone hopped if it's closer to vertical.
John:A toe off or a touchdown?
Connor:Touchdown. Touchdown of the plant leg.
John:Oh, touchdown of the plant leg?
Isaiah:Yeah. Yeah.
John:Oh, okay. So it's the plant leg. Alright. Okay. You guys confused it.
John:So when you when you touch down the plant foot, so if you're right left, the right foot, that leg is super vertical is what you're saying?
Connor:Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Super vertical in the sense of like Isaiah and I might be at like a our shins at like a 45 degree angle. It's probably lower than that.
Connor:But like someone else would be at like 55, 65 because they hopped up more.
Isaiah:Yeah. I've seen some really like vertical like
Connor:like Justin Darlington.
Isaiah:Yeah. No. Even Justin Darlington, I think, has a pretty he hops into it, but then he, like, adjusts his body in the air.
John:He's jumping onto a snowboard, bro. He looks like he's jumping onto a snowboard.
Isaiah:I think the more the more speed you have, the the smaller the shin angle needs to be so that you can, like, convert that to because think about it. If you're if you're going fast as hell and then you plant with a vertical shin angle, like, your body you're gonna just tip over.
Connor:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
John:Rotate. That's what I
Connor:John John has talked about this when he says, like, Isaiah's best jumps look more like he's rebounding off the floor than anything. Yeah. Like like, the deeper that angle is, the more time you have to, like, actually build up the strength and then, like, extend. If you're already at the top, you don't have any time to extend or build any power. You just have to go.
John:Can you feel that when you guys do it?
Connor:100%. I can feel it.
Isaiah:Feel what? The like the force?
John:No. Not the force, but like Bart's saying, like, if you have a really too vertical angle, you can feel you just don't have any time to push up.
Connor:Yeah. Like, to me, it feels like I'm falling forward.
John:Really? Like,
Isaiah:I don't really know because, like, the times the only times I've really used, like, a a high vertical shin angle is when in game, like, just because, like, it forces me to use that. Like, maybe I don't have time to fully extend or something like that. Or, like, during warm ups, I also have a pretty high shin angle, but that's because I'm not using, like, any speed at all into my approach. And then, also, I feel like the more I think the more your block foot leg bends, the more vertical you can be, if that makes sense. Like
John:Really? Like, the more
Isaiah:the more, yeah, like, the more balanced I am, like, between both legs, like like, I don't think you need to be as because you can't really bend your block foot if you're all the way, like, leaned. You know what I mean? Like, you can't use your block foot as much. So
John:Wait. Hold up. Hold up. I'm really confused by what you're saying. So you're saying as your block foot touches down
Isaiah:Yeah.
John:If you're leaning back too far. Was that what you're saying?
Isaiah:Yeah. If you're if you have a if you have a small shin angle. Right? So so that that foot's coming in like this, like Yes. Almost parallel to the ground.
John:So for those of you that that don't know what you're saying
Isaiah:You're not gonna be able to get a lot of push from your block foot. Your block foot's gonna be play more of a deflection role. Like, it's gonna come through and then and then hit. But if you're more vertical, like, it's your block foot's in a better position to apply force. That's not ideal.
Isaiah:I'm not saying that's what people should do, but that's that's how people, I think, get away with it is they use their they're, like, more balanced between both legs and they have more
John:Oh, so you're saying you're saying it turns into, like, almost like a half step?
Isaiah:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
John:Do you do you feel that sensation?
Isaiah:Yeah. That's that's how I feel when, again, when I'm not using an efficient strategy at all. Like, if I do a hop step or if I go, like, slow shit, then it's more vertical, and I'm using, like it's almost like one off vert, but with, speed, if that makes sense.
Connor:I mean, that's how I would describe. Like, if I'm doing like one or two step jumps, I really don't use the block foot the same way I do on an approach. And it's like I use my left leg more for the raw power and not the stopping my forward momentum and just deflecting as much. Yeah. But I jump highest when I use mostly my right leg for power, and I just deflect off the floor with my left.
Isaiah:Yeah.
John:That's interesting. That sensation as a two as for me as a two foot jumper, I started to have a little bit, but like on a nine eight rim, you know what I mean? Like, I started to get better on a nine eight rim, but it it felt so weird because, like, it almost felt like I was like, like, like, floor was like a trampoline on my really good jumps off two feet. Like, I definitely jumped a little bit into my two foot and I I felt like a shit ton of pressure between my feet and the ground. But like that block foot still came through.
John:It wasn't like a stomp. You know what I mean? Like it was maintaining all the technical elements you guys just talked about. But like I would maintain all the technical elements you just talked about, but I felt like a lot of pressure. Like, I felt like I was like pushing down into the floor hard still.
John:So I don't know if maybe that was like bad technique, but on my plant foot for sure. On the block foot, it felt like it just was like that. Actually, I'd say that was more on the penultimate step. It felt like a like a hard push up and forward a little bit sometimes. And then, like, the plant foot would come down with a shit ton of force.
John:Like, what does Steven always say? Jump harder. It felt like that. It felt like I was jumping harder. You know?
John:Do you feel like a lot of pressure between your like, on a good jumps, you're just like fucking ripping into the ground, or is it just like a like skip off the ground?
Connor:When I don't know about Zay, but like when I jump really, really well, it's I I feel the pressure in the sense of, like, when I do my plant leg. So, like, I push and I feel the pressure in the ball of my foot that I'm pushing off of. So for me, that's my left. And, like, I'll feel how hard I'm pushing in my foot and in, like, my hip and my lower back. Like, I can just feel like, I'm pushing as hard as I possibly can.
Connor:And then I'll feel, like like, my quad will, like I can feel it, like, tightening when I'm getting into, like, deeper position and my block foot's coming through. And then, like, like, I guess how
John:It's it's your plant foot you're saying. Yeah.
Connor:Yeah. Yeah. So, like, here, let me make
John:sure it'll stand. Foot. I'll stand. Bart, you gotta understand this audio. People are gonna listen on audio as well, but
Connor:I know. I know. I know. But I'll I'll describe it while I go through this.
John:Oh, wow. It's your actual room. I thought that was another Yeah.
Connor:Yeah. No. I have bands and stuff. Okay. So as I'm coming through and like I push out onto my plant leg like here Yeah.
Connor:I I can feel my quad like tense super hard whenever I'm doing like legit jumps. But then like I'll get down and I'll be like in a low like I get in pretty deep knee bends. And then I'll like when when my block hits the floor and my arms are swinging through too, I can like feel that in my stomach. Like that's where I feel usually.
John:Like how hard you're stopping that momentum and taking it vertically?
Connor:Yeah. Yeah. Like I I I don't feel it in my legs anymore. I feel it in like my like my lower back and my core. And then it's just like that happens for like a split second, but then the actual movement of jumping feels effortless.
Connor:Like it feels like nothing happened because I don't really stop. I just redirect. So like I feel it in my core because that's me like keeping myself upright as I stop with my legs. Yeah. That's how that's the best I can describe it right now.
John:That's actually super interesting. Like super insightful stuff.
Connor:And and I'll say that like the most sore thing that I ever have after really good jump days is like my upper back and my, like, core
John:Really?
Connor:By far. My legs are not nearly as sore as the rest of my body. So I guess
John:Maybe that's because you don't train your core.
Connor:Maybe. That may be true that I don't train enough core, but, like but I know it's also, like I, like, swing my arms extremely hard when I'm jumping, like, as hard as I can.
Isaiah:With me, I don't I don't really feel anything on the actual jump. I think before, when I was in it as experienced, I used to be more, like, conscious of it or, like, aware of it. But now I don't really feel anything as much until I start getting tired. But I will say the next day, like, the only thing that ever gets sore will be my quad, my left quad, left glute, and then actually, like, the most ridiculous soreness will be from my traps. Like, that's just, like Yeah.
Isaiah:By far, the thing that gets the most soreness is definitely my traps.
John:I wonder if that's from, like, the type of dunks that you're doing, though, too, if that plays, like, a role in it, you know? Because I feel like
Connor:It's from Yeah. It's from, like, pulling back. Yeah.
John:Oh, really?
Isaiah:And also off the dribble, I started noticing when people go off the dribble, during the penultimate, like, the dunkers that are good off the dribble, they go like this.
Connor:They shrug up.
John:It's really dark. Your background is you gotta shut your background off. Gotta get out of wherever you are in the country. Come back come back to point
Connor:out. Outlands.
John:This is why you guys, you know, you can listen to this on audio or you can watch it. And part of the reason why it's beneficial to watch it is because of demonstrations like this.
Isaiah:Yeah. So when I take when I take my penultimate right here, my my shoulders are coming up. So I'm going I'm literally going like like that.
John:Yeah, dude. I felt that too. Yeah. Actually, I actually the dribble, I wouldn't even feel I'm not great off the dribble. Don't get me wrong.
Connor:I I I actually do that in my normal jumps. That's like a lot of people notice that and they're like, oh, like you have the like you're wonky. And I'm like, I don't know. That's just what I do. Like Yeah.
Isaiah:If you've noticed, like every two foot, like, jumper has big ass traps. Even if they're skinny, there you can see, like, traps Like, dude,
Connor:I don't lift upper body at all, and my traps are, like, decent.
John:You know what's, like, super weird is power cleans make your upper back and upper trap massive. Like like, I have a I don't jump off two feet. But if you see videos of me jumping, always say turtle back because I'm like, dude, I look like a turtle. Like, from the back, if you watch me jump off one foot, my traps are ridiculous. My lats are huge for a one foot jumper, which is pretty atypical.
John:You don't usually see that a ton for one foot jumpers, especially because I'm like a power jumper with a big ass arm swing.
Isaiah:Basically, if you're a bodybuilder and you want big ass traps, just jump off two feet and do heavy ass power cleans.
John:Yeah. That would work.
Connor:I used to think upper body had nothing to do with two foot jumping, but I definitely did not believe that anymore.
John:I think it just depends on, like, what where you're talking about the mass. Like, I think we've talked about this before.
Connor:I mean, I think having gigabig pecs is not the way to go, but
John:What about biceps?
Isaiah:Yeah. Biceps for elbow hangs.
Connor:You need a little cushioning, honestly.
John:What about triceps? Do you think triceps have any role? You know I've always wondered
Connor:that because my triceps are actually pretty big.
John:Well I think like back to the trap thing and this is kind of interesting maybe a potential mechanism is like you look at baseball players, for example, right? And when they throw, they have to decelerate their arm after they throw. Right? So they'll come through, load up the rotator cuff and then they go through internal rotation and then they fall through. And then that shoulder in the back has to stop their arm from coming out of socket.
John:I think sometimes maybe a similar mechanism of like, hey look, when you swing your arms back that hard and that far, maybe there's some oscillation of the shoulders or something like that. And like, you have to decelerate your well, you get a massive stretch shortening cycle on the back swing, but that would more be in your chest and in your shoulders. So the only other thing I can think is after you finish the jump, right, you're shrugging upwards, right, and you're elevating your rib cage. So your your your rib cage can elevate and depress. Right?
John:Like we can breathe in, it comes up or drop it out. So when you finish a jump, end in this elevation of the rib cage, but your scapula is also pushed vertical. So your scapula is the bone on your back that helps your shoulder. It supports your shoulders. Actually, maybe it's more like that.
John:And I think like maybe when you finish the jump, that's where you're actually getting all that load is like, as you swing them through on the bottom, like at the bottom of the swing, it's almost like the very bottom of a roller coaster. You know what mean? Where you ever ride on a roller coaster, you get to the bottom of the hill and you feel all that pressure, you know what mean, at the bottom of the hill, like it's like you feel all that force and the force goes way way up and then you start on the way up and then obviously that changes a little bit. But if you've ever been on a roller coaster, you'd know what sensation I'm talking about. If you think about where your arm swing is at the very bottom of your jump or if you think about your arms coming through this you guys can't see this, but from behind you all the way through, like at the very bottom of that arm swing, there's a shit ton of force and your traps are functioning eccentrically to, I guess, stop your arms from coming out of socket.
John:So, like, you have to amortize at the shoulders and then finish tall through the movement. And if you have a super aggressive arm swing and you're running super fast and you're dropping your momentum and then, I guess, coming out of the bottom of the jump or turning around I don't even know what you like amortizing, I guess, maybe is the right term, the jump. Yeah. There's gonna be a lot of tension up in the shoulders to be able to handle those forces. So I kind of covered a lot of different things there, I actually thinking about it, was kind of externally processing that and, like, talking through a potential a couple different potential mechanisms.
John:So it could be I think the backswing would probably get your chest, but then I bet you where your traps hurt is at the very bottom of the arm swing and then driving up through the top of the jump. Right? So I bet you at the bottom it's like a big stretch on the trap and then as you finish up tall through the jump that unloads all the energy in your upper shoulder and in your trap and stuff like that. I don't know, is that what you do you guys ever notice anything like that?
Connor:I mean, when it when when you're talking about coming through the bottom, I mean, that that's basically what I was trying to describe.
John:Really?
Connor:Yeah. That that exact thing is what I'm trying to describe and, like, it's like my like upper back and my core get like super tight when I do that because I'm like trying to keep myself from crumpling at the bottom of the hill basically.
John:Dude, yeah. It's like a massive roller coaster. Like you're going really fast and you're going down a hill really quick and coming back up really quick. Right? So like the pressure as you get to the bottom and I remember we did this in physics, but I can't remember the the free body diagram.
John:Like it has to do with like momentum and maybe changing, changing momentum and impulse. But like as you're getting to the bottom, sensationally, we know that or we don't know, but you could feel it. You know, I mean, if you've ever ridden a roller coaster, you have that sensation and you feel all that, you know, pressure wanting to, like, push you through the tracks essentially. Right? If you're on a roller coaster or if you're jumping, it pushes you down through the floor.
John:And that's just the react that's a that's a lot of reaction forces, I think, partially the arm swing. I don't know. I'd have to really think about it. I've never really thought about this topic at all, which is kinda interesting, like, that we just ended up kind of getting on it. But, Isaiah, I don't know if you had any input on that and what your thoughts were.
Isaiah:That's actually exactly how how two foot jump feels is the roller coaster, analogy. Like like, it's literally, like, the top, you know, how you're going, like, slow at first, and then it accelerates. And then literally, like, the moment right before the very bottom of the roller coaster, that's your penultimate, and then everything else is, like, kinda coast up, and and then it's like a you just float up from there. But, yeah, it's trampoline, roller coaster. It's it's literally the the entire approach in penultimate.
Isaiah:You're just building up energy, and then you almost don't try, like, when you plant. It just it just happens, at least when it's done right.
John:When it's done right?
Isaiah:And I know you saw
John:says he feels the tension built, which is interesting.
Isaiah:Yeah. I think
Connor:I think on my best jumps, I don't. But, like because on my best jumps, I'm not thinking about anything. But, like, just knowing from other jumps I've done, like, I do feel that sensation. But it's usually like Jose said, when I get tired and I have to start thinking really hard to stay focused, like, then that's when I really notice it a lot.
Isaiah:Yeah. I I think it was it was said best with Area fifty one. What do you put on a story the other day or his his page? I put it on my story.
John:I shared that as well. Yeah. That was last Thursday.
Isaiah:Last Thursday?
John:Yeah. He said, like, it's like fluidity or like water. Like, you don't you're super relaxed until like
Isaiah:I got it. I got it right here.
John:Yeah. Go
Connor:ahead. He
Isaiah:said, by the way, shout out to Area fifty one. He is a legendary TFB dunker. He's only five seven, used to fly back in the day.
John:What's his first name? Chand?
Isaiah:Yeah. Chand. His IG, if you wanna go check him out, it's at Area 51 Dunks. He said
John:By the way, real quick. He was my absolute favorite dunker ever, by the way. I don't know if you guys ever knew He was my all time favorite dunker. Anyways, go ahead.
Isaiah:He said, the hardest thing I learned early on was to relax through my emotions. Technique is not just about how you move, but when to relax and when to apply your power at the right times. This is why I don't overexert myself on my lead up so I can maximize my final two steps. The biggest mistake I made early on was to try and push through my jump, which made me tense up. What looks effortless is actually efficient movement, relaxed fluid like water.
Isaiah:Yeah.
Connor:That's like the hardest thing to tell like to teach people I think too because they they think they have to like be tight to try hard, but this is not the case. Like you can try like I I try super hard, but don't tense up at all. And you'll see too like I I I think I think you and I are both a lot like this actually. I think two foot jumpers are better at showing this than one foot maybe just because our run ups usually aren't as far. But like the first three steps will be like not fast at all.
Connor:And then the last two will just it it's like it's like I don't know how to describe it. It's like every step is like a little faster, but then those last two to three steps are just a lot faster.
John:It always looks like it's really slow until the until you ground the penultimate step, and then it's just like, you know what I mean? Full balls of the wall. Like, if there's one spot that you should apply a lot of force, it's on you should feel a long draw of force. It feels like it's on the penultimate step. Like the first step of a sprint, right?
John:Coming out of the blocks. You see terrible people push out of the blocks whenever they chop their steps. Right? Like if you've ever sprinted before and you watch a good sprinter, they open up their hips a ton on that first push. Like it is a super volitional open push, the first two steps.
John:It almost feels slower. It does. It feels slower than the rest of the race if you do it right. Well, why is that? Well, because your foot's on the ground for two hundred and two hundred milliseconds or something like that relative to eighty milliseconds.
John:That's like less than half. Does anyone know what the ground contact time of a good two foot jump is?
Isaiah:Actually, I'm literally on I'm I'm measuring the frames right now. I wanna see I wanna compare the speed difference between the penultimate, like like, your penultimate step, how long it's on the ground for compared to, like, your plant leg and how quick and how long that's on the ground.
Connor:Oh, you mean your block?
John:I think you should look at the step prior to, like, what would be interesting to me is, like, let's look at ground contact times for someone like Nico, and then someone like you, Isaiah, and then someone like Jordan, and then, you know, someone like Dan.
Isaiah:Yeah.
John:I think, like, when you get into this long short or short short long discussion, which if you guys don't know, if you ever seen Nico Christie jump, it's got a really short, quick, and ultimate step. But the step prior is very long. So he'll say, well, my penultimate step is super aggressive. It's super relational. And it is, but it's more like a jab versus what I always get the analogy of, like, resting your hand on a heavy bag and then trying to push the bag over a long period of time or the first step of an acceleration.
John:Right? Nico's probably feels more like an upright sprint. It's like a tap. And you guys probably feel a long volitional push. Right?
Connor:Yeah. Mhmm.
John:I think that was the biggest difference I noticed when I started two foot jumping well versus poorly. When I jump like doo doo, I like hop into it and the the only way that works is if you're like Justin Darlington, I feel like.
Connor:Yeah. I mean, I think like if that's your natural style, I don't think anyone should really get away from it too much.
John:Yeah. That's that's like that's like the speed jumper versus like power jumper.
Connor:Yeah. That's like literally the two foot equivalent of it.
John:It is. And it's very similar actually because like like speed jumping off one foot, your penultimate step comes sweeps way behind you. And in power jumping, it feels like short and like you're on the ground longer, but you're like lower. I don't know. It's super it's a weird sensation.
John:I don't know how to explain it. But there's like more early on when I was learning speed jumping, it was more of like a sweeping sensation and leaving the penultimate step behind my body in a long draw on the ground early on. Now it's much quicker and everything happens. Like, it's big and fast and fluid. Like, that's how speed jumping feels.
John:Like, every it's like a tap, but it happens so fast and so quick and, like, you don't even notice it versus, like, power jumping feels like I load up that quad. Like, I can feel what? Did you find
Isaiah:I'm measuring this is this is actually a Connor in game dunk. It's the only video I had that was, like, pretty low frames per second, 30 frames. That way, I can measure it quicker. The step before the penultimate so for Connor, this would be his his right foot. Mhmm.
Isaiah:So his right foot is on the ground. So this is right before the left foot and then penultimate. His right foot's on the ground for seven frames out of 30.
John:He's a right left jumper. Right?
Isaiah:He's a right left jumper.
John:Okay. I'm actually I'm I'm actually and So you're saying right left right left. You're on the right. The first
Connor:Yes. This would be like
Isaiah:Point two three seconds. It's on the ground. Then his left foot is on the ground for point three seven seconds. And then and then his left and then his right leg, so the leg that's loading up into the jump, it's on the ground for Point three seven seconds.
John:How how long?
Isaiah:Point three seven seconds.
John:So the the penultimate step and the plant
Connor:plant leg are the same. Yeah.
John:Wow. That makes the it's exactly what I just said. I said it probably feels like a long ass push. Like
Isaiah:Yeah.
John:I bet the block foot's like I bet the block foot's like a 180 bar or something like that.
Isaiah:The block foot?
John:If I had to guess, it's a 180.
Isaiah:Point 20.
John:Point point two? Mhmm. I said point one eight. It's not bad.
Connor:That was bar. That's an end game dunk. So I'm gonna say that's probably slower than like a max jump.
John:Yeah. You're probably not running quite as fast maybe.
Isaiah:I can literally show I can literally show what the jump looks like.
John:I can't because you're you're in the
Connor:The outlands.
John:You're in the outlands. Let's see. If you guys can't see this, it's in LA Fitness. Weird that you don't even see the big push on it, but you can I guess there's a big load up there? I can't really see it from this angle.
John:Yeah. That was actually
Isaiah:that was actually a pretty, like, not trying push.
Connor:Yeah. That was right when we started. I also cramped super bad. I my calf cramped so bad on that dunk, like So
Isaiah:I bet on, like, a legit full jump, it would be an even bigger ground contact time on that.
Connor:It's like it's getting to almost two thirds of a second. So Yeah.
John:Doing it too. Anyway, I'll be I'll be right back. I'll be right back. Continue this conversation.
Connor:Yeah. Yeah.
Isaiah:And it's lasting just as long as your plant leg being on the ground, which is like where you're loading up all your your power and energy.
Connor:That's that's really interesting that it's like that's just such a coincidence that it's like, oh, hey. You're the push into it is the exact same amount of time that you're then amortizing to jump off of it like Mhmm.
Isaiah:And imagine imagine comparing for guys that are, like, long short where they don't extend fully, like, that the amount of time that their penultimate plant leg is on the Ground Floor is probably nothing compared to their actual, like, plant. Yeah. So, like, that that just shows that I don't know. I think you have to you really have to focus on just leaving that foot on the ground as long as possible and make sure you're just pushing behind you, like, that whole time.
Connor:Yeah. I mean, I think that's the biggest cue for sure. I I usually, like, I've tried to tell people a bunch of different ways to do it. I've been like, you know, push forward, extend forward, and then like a lot of people will be like like film yourself and if your knees bent, you didn't extend enough. I think sometimes people run into issues where they're like they're too tight to actually fully extend Mhmm.
Connor:Which actually this is like a side topic, but
John:flexibility It's is about the penultimate step on.
Connor:Yeah. But yeah, but it's like but it's like if you're not flexible enough to like actually extend all the way forward, then flexibility is an issue for you. But other than that, like you don't need to be hyper like, flexible to jump.
Isaiah:That reminds me too another really key factor on a penultimate step for two feet is you should be low going into the penultimate step. So for a left right jumper, this would be your right leg. For a right left jumper, this would be your left leg. You should be in basically a lunge position, right before you take that that penultimate step. And and as you push out of it, you shouldn't, you shouldn't I always tell people it's like, imagine there's a line.
Isaiah:Like, there's like a freaking laser beam, and it's right above your head and your head and the laser beam is always gonna stay like, if you drop down, the laser beam's gonna drop down. If you drop down even more, the laser beam's gonna drop down with you. But if you go above, it's gonna stay at same level. It's gonna kill you.
John:Right?
Isaiah:When you and you're during your approach, your head should never pass that laziness again. So
John:how that would look,
Isaiah:I'm taking my I'm I'm as you're doing your approach, you're getting lower, getting lower, getting lower, taking penultimate, and then you go lower. When people jump into it, they're getting lower, getting lower, getting lower, then they go high into it. Right? So a way so you need to be low going into the penultimate in a lunge position, and then from there push out and down into the grip.
Connor:I mean, it's literally how we're talking about the roller coaster. That's exactly what it looks like, and I've done this with a lot of people. It's like, I will take a video and just trace a dot on like where their hip is, and then I'll just follow their hip through the video. And it literally just goes whoop, a perfect half circle on a good jump. But if it's not, then you'll see it like it goes up or it like is like it goes forward but doesn't smoothly go down.
Connor:It just jankily like goes down and back up. Like, the smoother the circle is usually, the the better the jump.
Isaiah:Yeah. Yeah.
John:I got it. Crazy interesting. You know?
Isaiah:Like, it would be, like, a perfect, like
Connor:Yeah. Smooth.
John:You know what's you know what's super interesting? That's called tracing the path of the center of mass. It's not perfect, but if you trace the hip, it gives you a decent idea. And when you're high jumping, that exact thing is done. And it's interesting because two foot jumping is very different than one foot jumping.
John:There's a lot of ways to jump high off one foot. There's a lot of ways to jump high off two feet. But on one foot, you typically want your center of mass to be low prior to grounding the count penultimate step and stay low until takeoff. You don't wanna see it drop down. It can come up slightly into the takeoff, but not too high.
John:So, like, as you ground like, when I do really fast and high jumps off my speed jumping, it feels like it feels like I honestly, this will sound corny as hell, but, like, did ever you see Jurassic Park the way the velociraptors are just, like, you know, going in a semi squat and they're but they're still, like, springy. You know what I mean? They're, kinda, like, pre sprung, ready to, like, bounce the shit and, like, kill you and jump on you and put a little talent in you. That's what it feels like when I speed jump off my left or my right. I'm sorry.
John:Like, it feels like I'm, like, springy, but I'm in this slight semi squat, and I'm trying to, like, run. It's like I'm like that that that that that that that that And then that, like, rhythm. That's like a Daniel's song. Okay.
Connor:Dude, the the fact that you say that, by the way, rhythm, that's literally how I jump. Like, Zay knows this and I mean, John, you know this too. Like, I listen to music basically every time I jump. And the reason is, like, for some reason, listening to the music helps the rhythm of my steps. And, like, that's like, more of now when I jump really well, more than focusing on any, like, physical, like, oh, I'm pushing now sort of thing, I, like, have, like I focus on, like, a beat basically, and that's, how my jump progresses is, like, through the beat.
Connor:Yeah. Like, I like, when I watch, like, Nico jump, I can, like, tell his beat is different and because his is like, you know, mine mine will
Isaiah:be like boom boom boom boom.
Connor:But his is like boom boom boom boom. And like there's like the last two steps are just like at the same time basically because he just hops. So it's like and but mine has that like drawn out like boom boom. I don't know. I
John:know what you're trying to say. Like I
Connor:know that's super confusing, but
John:It's like a I always say this like good jumping and good jumping is, in terms of your muscle activity, is like it's it's harmonic, like a symphony. It's like a perfect symphony where things turn on and off perfectly, and that's why it looks rhythmic. That's why it looks harmonic, because the muscles are connected to levers, which are your bones, and the bones are moving according to how your muscles are contracting. So if things are turning off harmonically in a symphony, like a perfect symphony, it's going to be rhythmic. It's going to look rhythmic because your internal physiology is dictating this output that you're doing on the ground.
John:So, like, if it doesn't look fluid, if it doesn't look harmonic, if it doesn't look like it's this beautiful, orchestra or symphony working together, then it's it's not gonna be pretty. And, like, it's gonna be jarring, it's gonna be it's gonna look like someone just freaking started banging on some drums off the beat or, like, playing the guitar with no purpose or timing on anything. And, like, biomechanics kind of work that way. So like, that makes sense to me that that would be a cue. It works for me off one foot as well.
John:Like when I jump really well, like the rhythms like toss and it's like one, two, three. Like that's almost what it feels like. Well, it's it's all by galloping and then I go left, right, left. That's kind of what I do. And it's like a big it's like a big arm swing as well.
John:And like that happens so innately for me now. On my right foot, it's like one, two, three, four, five, one, two, 12. That's what my right foot feels like on a full high jump approach. So, like, when I speed jump. But it's different according to, like, everything depending on what you're doing.
John:You know what mean? I feel like that rhythm is gonna change. It's task dependent. Isaiah, I don't know if you had any comment on that.
Isaiah:I just have a monkey in my head. Just No. For real, though, like, rhythm is is everything. Like, you gotta you gotta have you gotta have good rhythm. A lot of dunkers have good rhythm when they dance.
Isaiah:Fun fact. A lot
John:of basketball players do too.
Isaiah:Yeah. I think I think that's that's huge in terms of in terms of jumping is rhythm. That's and it's something you can see improve from guys that, like like, that are young and then seeing their jumps, like, a few years later. Like, I think rhythm is one of the biggest things that you can see that improves. And I think that to do it, it it comes with practice.
Isaiah:Like, it comes with practicing the right things at the right time. And this goes with anything with jump technique, you have to force yourself to fix it. Right? Peter Peter Haddad, perfect example. Changing people's penultimate is one of the hardest things you can do because, like, a lot of people you'll jump lower initially.
John:Connor McCallan. Connor McCallan, I think is how it's pronounced. He's been doing it really struggling with it, and he's getting frustrated. Stay the course. You've done one day.
John:You've done a week. You've done a month. That's that's that's a blink.
Connor:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For real.
Isaiah:You you literally have to just just suck it up, eat it, and force yourself to use the good technique because that's gonna pay dividends off in the future. And, yeah, extend. Push that back leg hard.
John:Keep it on the ground a long time because it's on the ground a long time. Like, it shouldn't feel like a tap. It shouldn't feel like upright running. Should feel like the first step of an acceleration.
Isaiah:And I find the body's really good at, like, like auto regulating itself. Like, like, you practice an efficient technique enough times, eventually, it'll become your body's most efficient technique.
John:Yes. You auto you will auto regulate it for sure. Like, you figure it out. Self regulate, I think is what it's called.
Connor:This is just, like, another, like, random cue for that, but a lot of the times, would tell people to, like, you literally wanna think about breaking the concrete underneath your back foot. Like, if that's not how hard you're trying to push, like, you're not pushing.
John:Like that. I mean, that's a that's like a track cue. That's like a track cue almost.
Isaiah:Also, don't another bit another thing, don't Nathan George does this, where your back leg comes up super high when it
Connor:starts on the ground.
Isaiah:Yeah. Keep that foot close to the ground, that back leg.
John:I think, like, what's interesting is when I was in Florida, like, what about a month ago or something like that? We kinda like we were we were in the we were in the living room and, like, I don't jump all two feet. I Like, really just don't. It kinda gives me hamstring tendinopathy on my plant foot because I'm really inflexible and like, I don't really load my hamstring that way. So it just adds a lot of compression because I I try to do the elite technique without elite preparation because I'm just like I mean, I have elite preparation for one foot, but I don't do shit for two foot.
John:So I'll just come into this and be like, got this. You know, we're only talking about one portion of the entire jump right here, which is kinda interesting. We're really mostly talking about the penultimate step. But I remember telling myself to feel the different sensations and stuff and you guys are watching there. And if you played it in slow motion or whatever, positionally, wasn't terrible.
John:But there were a couple of things that were off and I was like, oh shit, I'm open and I'm like, one of the things that most people don't do is they don't open up. They don't open up their movements. They don't get a bigger arm swing. They don't get a lot they're they're like, when you say a big arm swing, everyone understands that. When you say a big penultimate push, no one understands it.
John:It's so weird. Like, if you say big big arm swing, your arm comes all the way back. It like all the way back behind you.
Connor:If anything, when I tell people to have big arm swings, their arm swing becomes too big. Like penultimate step is like one of those things where you almost can't you can't overdo the push, but arm swing is like you can have too much arm swing. It's so weird. I I've never understood that either.
John:I think if you like mistime it, like if you mistime arm swing, I think it can push you forward as well and that can kinda screw up.
Isaiah:That's super common.
Connor:Yeah. That that too, but it's also like if you don't have mobile enough shoulders, people's first compensation is gonna be their torso position.
John:That's what I
Connor:just Yeah. But it's like
Isaiah:You know why I feel like a lot of people don't understand this? It's because they don't study their jumps. It's impossible. If you've played your jumps frame by frame, if you if you spend two hours a day playing your jumps frame by frame and compare it to somebody that's good, you can figure all this shit out. Like, people don't people don't spend enough time studying.
Connor:I never actually did that, but something I've done a lot of is like, I'll watch dunk mixes. Like, when I was first starting to dunk, like, obviously, I'm watching Jordan kill Gannon. Right? And I would like watch his jumps and like try to imagine being him at that moment. So like I had like tons of visualization practice.
Connor:Like I I wouldn't go watch my own stuff all the time, but I would like watch everyone else just like nonstop visualize like trying to jump like they did.
Isaiah:Yeah. Because you you end up noticing. If you've watched hundreds and thousands of hours of dunk footage, like, you're gonna be thinking while watching it. Like, you're gonna eventually, you're gonna notice every every little like aspect.
John:If you're curious, if you're just like a brain dead freaking rat that just like is a is just sitting in its freaking cage and it and they they took the brain out and it's just like watching TV because, like, it's just, you know, there's nothing going on up there, then, yeah, like, there nothing is gonna process. But if you're curious, I think, like we are and you really are passionate about something, you wanna know how is that possible? How the hell are they doing that? So you're gonna like, once you understand That's
Isaiah:a different way. You're gonna analyze it.
John:Yeah. And I mean When people start analyzing what they do in the air, I'm like, that is the dumbest, like, how people jump. And they're like, oh, it's what they do in the air. And I'm like, you must know nothing about physics, but no.
Connor:Yeah. That's that's one of, like, oh my gosh, man. There have been so many there have been so many things that people have said about, like, once you leave the ground, you do this. It'll make you jump higher. I'm like, no, it gives you the appearance of you jumping higher.
Connor:But that's it.
John:If I pull my feet up to my chest, I look like a jump high, but I actually don't.
Connor:Like I think I think heel kick is extremely misunderstood. I know we share this sentiment.
John:I don't even know what it is. I don't even Exactly. Know
Connor:But I think I do think it's a balancing mechanism for the most part.
John:Do when you your heels come to your butt?
Connor:Yeah. I'm talking about butt kick. Yeah.
John:But but like in flight? Cause butt kicking is a term by you sue stupina and high jump research that is like speed jumping. That's what butt kicking is in one foot. So when people say butt kicking in two foot, I'm like
Connor:But I'm saying butt kicking is not a technical aspect of two foot jumping. That's what I'm saying.
John:Okay. Yeah. I agree.
Connor:Like like if anything it's like, okay, you push off the ground really hard and it's either you're balancing or it's like your muscle, like relaxing and then contracting again because you just just extended super hard. So now it's like coming back.
John:Yeah. It's like relaxing. It's what's weird is like for that to occur. Like whenever I do that often when I jump off two feet, I feel like it's like, it makes me feel like I'm floating. You know what I mean?
John:Like you push off hard and then your feet come back to you in this fluid kind of motion and it just feels cool. But like, I think that it's like through extending my hip after takeoff, I want my feet to come back behind me because that's like, it's almost like visual. I visualize seeing that and then I'm like, oh, that makes sense. Like, your feet sure as shit aren't gonna come out in front of you.
Connor:Yeah. Know. And they definitely behind you from
John:If your
Connor:feet are coming out in front of
John:you, something's wrong. Yeah. So that happened. Like, that wouldn't happen. If they're not gonna come out in front of you, maybe that's the entire defense.
John:When you jump, your feet aren't gonna move in front of you. That's for sure.
Connor:Yeah. I I think it's interesting because you talk like you talk about like being interested and I think that all of us like really appreciate like the scientific side of things. Like I'm like looking for like the objective truths and jump training and like jump technique. Like
John:Say all the time. I'm like, it's objectively true. And people are like, is that a thing? And I'm like, yeah, objective
Connor:People don't understand the difference between like objective truth, personal truth, and there's like truths just because people say they're a truth. Like, which is just a lie. Like personal truth I can understand being mistaken for like objective truth. Because that can be pretty tough, right? Because if something is like extremely real for you like if something does work for you, it does work for you.
Connor:That's just the truth. But that doesn't mean it works for everybody. Yeah. But that's like that that can be really hard to disconnect from, you know?
John:Yeah. And I think that's where like we can get into this another time because this is really philosophical, but it's like levels of evidence, know? Like this is why I say like case studies are the lowest level of evidence, but people make a shit ton of money on case studies. Well, I did this and it worked for me, so you should do it too. Well, how can you make that claim?
John:Because like, there that's what that's the whole point of freaking scientific method. So And it it goes class.
Connor:It it goes way past this training. Like, that's way this will get too deep. We'll have to stop. But I'm just gonna end it on like like like not to trigger anybody, but like flat earth and like a bunch of other stuff. It's just like it's not objectively true.
Connor:Like
John:Flat earth exists, Connor. I don't know what you're talking about. Have you seen the earth? Do you know if it's flat? I've seen the earth and I've only ever seen it flat because that's how
Connor:I I believe in our lizard overlords. That's all I have to say.
John:Anyways, Isaiah, did you have any comments?
Isaiah:Oh, I was just gonna say every dunker that sells a jump program basically just uses like, their own self, like, case study. Like, it'll be
John:Lowest it is the lowest form of evidence ever, and I hate it.
Isaiah:It'll be like, yo. Like, I I did I I did a 100 calf raises and these squats right here and like and that's it. That's what they sell. So they're own And that's that's
Connor:and and and and that's why it's like, it doesn't really upset me because I understand. Like, because I do the same thing for myself kind of. Right? I did a lot of that. Like, went around and did a bunch of different stuff and like, I was like trying to find out like what specifically worked for me, but then as I've continued to coach people and I see that like these different things don't work for people that did work for me, like obviously something's there.
Connor:I'm I'm so interested in, like, longer term studies of, a bunch of stuff Yeah. With, like, actual scientific method applied, not just, like Yeah. Anecdotal evidence and stuff like that.
John:Yeah. I mean, that's, like, that's, like, one of the things I'm most passionate about. I think anyone that knows me would say that. It's like, John, you're never wrong. You you just you just can never be wrong.
John:I had a girl tell me that the other week. She's like, you're just you're just never wrong. You just can't be ever wrong. Everything you're just right. But like, what if it's true for me?
John:And then I'm like, that goes back to the personal truth thing. And I'm we're talking about objective variables. We're not talking about like it's like what's the guy that was just on Rogan? The guy from Canada that's a lecturer. What's his name?
John:Peterson. Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson. Love him. Love that guy to death.
John:And he's like, the way he's talking is he's like in an interview or whatever and this this woman's trying to like get her get a rise out of him. And he's like, no. You're you're saying she's like, well, you think this or you think this? And he's like, no, don't think that's the way it is. Like, this is what scientific evidence tells us the way it is.
John:Like, this is not what I think. This isn't conjecture. This isn't my opinion. This is what science underneath a rigorous scientific method is demonstrating to us. And like unknown quantities that we've studied numerous times.
John:Like this isn't your opinion because of your personal experience or your friends' personal experience. Like this is a bunch of, you know, experiences put together in a very controlled manner that gave us this answer, and that we can study over and over again. It's repeatable and it gives us the same response. And I think it's like our entire training method is my entire backing as a coach is in the scientific method. It's look, this isn't just like this is over and over again, we see these known quantities.
John:But where this gets really tricky is when confirmation bias comes in. And so what you do is you look at every experience you ever had, and you only look for things that support your bias just to confirm your bias. Right? You're only looking for things that will will will demonstrate or confirm the the experience or the thought or the bias that you've already formed in your head to be true. So I know this to be true, so I'm only gonna look for things that also show it to be true.
John:And that's a big issue too. Right? Because like, you know, if you go out and you're like, well, coached a thousand athletes and every athlete I coach, you know, when I tell them to hold their when I tell them to to grit their teeth, they all jump higher. Right? They all jump higher.
John:And it's like, how are you how are you assessing that? How are you assessing that? Are you just you just told them and therefore it must be you you told them to do it and therefore they did it and therefore they jump higher because of that.
Isaiah:Think they're jumping higher or you
John:actually Exactly. That's what I'm saying, like, you only you only assume the things are Are
Isaiah:there other variables that are causing them to jump higher or is it the teeth gritting that's making Yeah.
Connor:And this this is that was kinda what I was getting with on the, like, the flat earth thing is that, like, like, earth only exists because they took the things that confirm what they want and left out all the other hundreds of things that absolutely crush it objectively.
John:Like
Connor:and but but people believe it.
Isaiah:So it I just saw the pleasure in John's face. You say you're like, yes.
John:I hate it. It's my biggest thing.
Connor:And and, again, I it's my whole thing is, like, I just don't I don't have any problem. Like if someone wants to believe it, whatever, believe it. But yeah. Like I I just don't wanna live my life or my and have my training be that way and stuff like that.
John:Well, think too like it really it all comes out in the wash. And that's why I always love competition because competition doesn't care what you think. What'd you say, Zach?
Isaiah:I said objective truth always wins.
John:Yeah, it does.
Connor:And that's the other thing too is like, I think when people say like, you know, you're saying this girl said like, oh, you you can't be wrong, John. Like that's that's definitely not true because from from what I know of John because I've known him for a while now, I mean, we even shared a bedroom together. So actually it was a hotel room but whatever. So like like if if if we continue to train people and we like solve studies that backed other methods that were better and we tried methods and they did work better and then that's us confirming their method. Like we would switch to what is objectively better and proven to be better in a day.
Isaiah:It A study came out. If a study came out that said, if you get on a headstand, like do a headstand for five minutes daily, and that improves your vertical, like more than any other kind of method that's out there. And it was objectively studied and measured. We would change all our training to do headstands for five minutes.
John:We would we would like build it in. Like one of the I do this with anecdote too sometimes. Like I don't know if you guys have known this, but like I will take things from anecdote and I'll say try it. Let me see. I wanna see what happens.
John:Let's try it with a bunch of athletes
Isaiah:and see what happens.
Connor:And this is the truth is like anyone can apply the scientific method. So if someone else does something and says it works, we can try it with ourselves or with other athletes who want to, and we can be the people who are confirming their methods so then it is actually objective fact.
John:Well, you know, I don't wait for it. And it's fact. I just think there's evidence. But it's objectively supported. It's support.
John:Yeah. It's support. It's objectively supported.
Connor:Yeah. Maybe that's And every that's that's everything in science is like facts for facts in the sense of it's facts for what we know so I
John:think it's like it's measurable in a sense.
Connor:Yeah. But anything could change in a heartbeat just depending on what is figured out.
John:Yeah. And I I think yeah. I think what happens is like people disagree with me and they're like, I'm like, well, I abide by three things. Is for me, this isn't for everyone, and this is a personal truth, but it helps me make decisions. When it comes to jump training, I abide by scientific, I abide by science.
John:When it comes to my moral truths, abide by the Bible, and when it comes to my decisions as far as the law, I abide by whatever jurisdiction I live in. So like, if if someone says, hey, John, you should go you should go rob that car. You should go break into the car. I'm not gonna break into the car because that breaks my my moral code, what guides my moral code. You know, I I shouldn't steal from another person.
John:That's wrong. And maybe that breaks the law, so I'm not gonna do that. And therefore to me that is like wrong. But if so let's go with like a scientific one. John, well, I shower before I jump, and I always jump higher when I shower before I jump.
John:Every time I jump high and Bart showered one time and he jumped really high, so it must be the showering is the reason why he jumps high before he jumps. Okay. Well, there's no scientific evidence to show that. None. Zero.
John:I don't even like, so I'm not gonna say that that is right or wrong, but like there's no evidence to support that. So that's gonna be my defense. And people get pissed off at that. And I'm like, show me something that says otherwise that isn't just you doing what someone else told you or you doing what your own experience is. Like, I want you to show me something that demonstrates that this is true outside of just why said so.
John:Well, give me a body of work. Is there more than just you and Connor? Have you done this multiple times? Is it repeatable? Because if it's not, then I don't give a shit about it.
John:Like, you know what mean? And and this is another thing too that pisses me off. And because I love rants. People that don't I heard I heard my my previous or I guess my mentor, Mike Young, say this. He was like, people that don't measure their training are afraid to see if their training works or not.
John:That's why they don't measure it. People that don't test are afraid to see they're they're afraid to confront the fear of their training being ineffective. Right?
Isaiah:I love testing.
John:Yes.
Connor:And test testing doesn't lie. That's the biggest thing. How you feel lies to you.
John:The vertex doesn't care about your feelings. I said it all the time. The vertex doesn't care what you think your vertical is. It doesn't care. Like when I do your when I do your reach, it doesn't you might come up like everyone thinks everyone's like, I'm a come up to the vertical.
John:It
Connor:doesn't care. But if I do my own reach, it definitely cares about how I feel.
John:Exactly. But like, I always say like your touch, like whatever you touch, it doesn't care about your feelings. Like people will come out and they'll be like, like, Dan's, like, kinda like, oh, know, Dan Gross. He's like, yeah. He's like, gross, not gross.
John:He's like, oh, I feel pretty good. I think I'm like, Isaiah and I are, like, under the impression Dan Gross is gonna come up and just slap the shit out of 12 feet. It's gonna be game over. What's she gonna head out and be like, what the hell? Dan comes up, touches eleven six, which is like a warm up touch for Isaiah.
John:Same exact reach, and we're all like, we look at Isaiah and I look at each other, and we're like, how the hell did that happen? Like but like like what? It doesn't care. The vertex doesn't care what you think your vertical is. It doesn't care how high you get your head to the rim.
John:It doesn't care how high it looks like you get to the edge of the rim. It you jump, you touch, and it tells you what your vertical is.
Connor:Can we clarify Dan's maximum vertex touch now?
John:I yeah. I mean, I don't care. I think I think the highest he's touched is eleven seven. Right? Is that the highest he's touched, Isaiah?
Connor:Yeah. Yeah. That's that blows my mind. I didn't know that.
John:You'd think
Connor:it's way higher, wouldn't it? I thought he touched way higher than me. I've touched higher than Dan. What is wrong with the world?
John:Dan has tested like Dan has only tested one time on concrete and he wasn't jumping super well.
Isaiah:Hours of jumping.
John:Yes. I think like I think Dan on a gym, like a good day, I think he could probably touch eleven ten, I think. Maybe maybe
Connor:I figured he'd be like high elevens.
John:Yeah. I'm pretty good at guessing what people can touch, and I don't even go by the reach anymore. Just go by what I think they can touch. And like, it's funny because a while back, Isaiah had a discussion about our friend Austin Berkey potentially touching higher than me, and I was like, no. He won't.
John:He was like, he's gonna touch higher than me. I was like, no. He won't. He's gonna touch 10. I was like, pops, he'll touch, like, ten ten.
John:And, like, I'm pretty good at just assessing it. I actually do think in Austin's prime, Isaiah was right, But I was like going off of his current. Was like, there's just no way off one foot he can. But I think Austin in his prime could probably touch. I think he could touch like based on seeing him jump the other day when I when I watched him off one, I think he probably could have touched like eleven eleven one, eleven eleven one maybe, something like that.
John:Isaiah, you think that's right?
Connor:Yeah.
John:Yeah. And his reach is considerably lower. So his vertical is probably higher than mine is, but it was like a funny discussion because it was just like Austin came in thinking like, crush him. I'm gonna touch eleven eleven five warm up jumps and like goes up off two feet. And it's like, dude, haven't been training?
John:You haven't been doing anything? Again, Vertex does not care. It doesn't discriminate. I always say that the Vertex your top touch, your peak touch doesn't discriminate unless the vertex is leaning or you mismeasured. That
Connor:that's that's what's crazy is, like, when I like, everyone can know my true vertical. When I I measured my vert recently and got 39. I wanna be say fairly that I measured it not with a vertex, but with, like, tape in my hand, like, slapping tape onto a backboard. So, like, it wasn't very accurate, and I wasn't trying to be and I didn't really warm up. Like, I was just trying to get a quick measurement to, like, guesstimate where I was at currently.
John:Yeah.
Connor:But, like, it it's humbling. That was the when I messaged y'all and told y'all that I, like, measured a like, I measured, like, a 38 and a 39, like, back to back. What month I have no idea what month that was. This this was a month and a half ago. This was like this was like a month after I hurt my knee.
Connor:So I hadn't done like much of anything. Oh, okay. And I like I wasn't jumping like at all, like, because I was in quite a bit of pain.
John:Yeah. So I know when we tested you, when you dunked with Isaiah and Dan, it was a really bad day. And I think you tested like 38 or 39 as well that day. Right?
Connor:Yeah. And that was yeah. That was that was from the eleven hour car drive. So Yeah.
John:That was that was bad.
Connor:And I also jumped the day before I left to drive there. So
John:Yeah. I just the point of what we're saying is, you can and this is the thing too. Like, when you get those objective numbers, you kinda this is exactly what happens. You go, okay. Why did that happen?
John:Why did I jump that high? What happened? What went wrong? What went right? What did I do?
John:Like, that's why I like testing. When you when you when you beat your PR by 10 pounds in a back squat or when you jump when you jump 38 or 35 or whatever. If you're me, there's days I go out and I can barely touch 11 feet off my left foot. Like, that's like a barely a 30 it's like a 37 inch vertical or or 36 37 inch vertical touching 11 feet. 37 is not terrible, but like, I look at them like, like, was really close to 40 a week or two ago.
John:And people get discouraged or I might get discouraged, but you shouldn't. Really all that tells you is this is where you're at. What happened? What went wrong? What went right?
John:What was the difference between this and the one that you did previously? Like that's why we test so we can
Connor:Yeah.
John:Assess the situation and make decisions.
Connor:You know, I was actually super happy when I tested that low like Man. So quickly because I was just like, well, dang. Like I can do all these dunks now and I'm jumping horrible compared to what I was jumping like a while back objectively. Because like I objectively tested like multiple inches higher than that. So it was like, dang.
Connor:If I just get back to that or even past that, like, I'm a be a freak.
John:Yeah. Exactly. And yeah. That's the beauty of it. But we're we're a little over an hour actually, which is way longer than we thought we were gonna be, but that's fine.
John:So this is the first podcast, guys. We're definitely gonna be doing this more often. We don't know exactly what that's gonna look like, but I like doing them. I think you guys enjoy doing them as well.
Connor:Oh, I guess they're dope.
John:Yeah. I think they're fun. Isaiah, any comments?
Isaiah:No. That's pretty much it. We don't wanna tell you guys an exact schedule because that tends to be a personal truth and not an objective truth. But, yeah, I don't think it's gonna be out yet on iTunes maybe or Spotify. I think we're gonna put it out on YouTube, and then you can also check it out on Transistor.
Connor:And we'll add all that stuff to the if you're watching this on YouTube, we're gonna add all that stuff to the site, like, very soon. So you'll be able to find it in the member section and stuff like that.
Isaiah:Yeah. But other than that
John:Go ahead, Isaiah. Send us off.
Isaiah:Other than that, make sure you like the video. Tag us on Instagram if you're listening to an episode. Make sure you tag us. That way, we can repost you on our stories. And other than that, let's take it easy, guys.
Isaiah:Train hard. Sign up for, coaching,tspstrength.com. You'll get coached personalized by all three of us individually. Best training on the planet.
John:And literally, all three of us work together every day. We all write the training. Everyone asks weird questions like this. We all work on the training collectively. We all communicate every day.
John:Like, it's it's on my biggest quality. My biggest core value in the business is equality and fairness, so we are always working together to make sure that we do that. That's what this business was founded on. Yeah. Connor, did you have anything else as a send off?
Connor:It's nice to be on the podcast. I hope to bring many memes to the podcast. Wow.
Isaiah:So we do have a history of memes coming out from the podcast.
Connor:And I just wanna say that even when I wasn't with THP, I listened to the podcast as long as it was running. Oh. Because it it may it basically made me survive COVID. So there you go. Well, COVID's still going on, so
John:maybe maybe you guys will use this to survive a little longer. Anyways, guys, peace out. Thanks for listening. See you next time.