WEBVTT 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:05.610 Matt Abrahams: For many of us, our success is blocked, blocked 00:00:05.610 --> 00:00:07.440 by our beliefs and approaches. 00:00:07.830 --> 00:00:13.410 If we remove these barriers, we can have more impact and add lasting value. 00:00:13.860 --> 00:00:17.490 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:17.490 --> 00:00:19.410 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:19.740 --> 00:00:23.115 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:23.564 --> 00:00:26.775 Today I'm really excited to have another conversation with Muriel Wilkins. 00:00:27.224 --> 00:00:30.405 Muriel is an executive coach, author, and podcast host. 00:00:30.705 --> 00:00:34.875 She hosts the HBR podcast Coaching Real Leaders, and she has a new book 00:00:34.875 --> 00:00:39.345 out Leadership Unblocked: Breakthrough the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential. 00:00:40.050 --> 00:00:41.100 Welcome back, Muriel. 00:00:41.100 --> 00:00:44.850 I really enjoyed our previous conversation in episode 102, and I look 00:00:44.850 --> 00:00:46.440 forward to learning from you again. 00:00:46.830 --> 00:00:47.670 Muriel Wilkins: Likewise, Matt. 00:00:47.670 --> 00:00:49.020 Thank you for having me back. 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:49.740 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:49.740 --> 00:00:50.820 Shall we get started? 00:00:51.120 --> 00:00:51.690 Muriel Wilkins: Absolutely. 00:00:51.690 --> 00:00:52.260 Let's do it. 00:00:52.470 --> 00:00:53.100 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:56.970 A lot of your work focuses on helping leaders be more effective. 00:00:57.150 --> 00:01:00.755 In your experience, what are the most common beliefs that hold leaders back? 00:01:01.709 --> 00:01:04.980 Muriel Wilkins: There are quite a few and I've spent some time looking at them. 00:01:04.980 --> 00:01:08.520 But you know, let me caveat that by saying I think beliefs are 00:01:08.520 --> 00:01:10.380 very unique to the individual. 00:01:10.380 --> 00:01:14.850 So while I have identified some common ones, the work is to identify which 00:01:14.850 --> 00:01:17.190 ones might be getting in your own way. 00:01:17.190 --> 00:01:20.310 But to get us started, and that might be a little bit of an appetizer 00:01:20.310 --> 00:01:23.865 to tease out some of the ones that might exist for any leader, there are 00:01:23.865 --> 00:01:27.015 seven that are most common amongst the leaders that I've coached. 00:01:27.315 --> 00:01:30.195 And so the first is I need to be involved. 00:01:30.375 --> 00:01:32.774 The second is I need it done now. 00:01:33.104 --> 00:01:35.294 The third is, I know I'm right. 00:01:35.715 --> 00:01:37.845 The fourth is I can't make a mistake. 00:01:38.310 --> 00:01:41.610 The fifth is, if I can do it, so can you. 00:01:41.910 --> 00:01:43.890 The sixth is, I can't say no. 00:01:44.070 --> 00:01:46.590 And the last one is, I don't belong here. 00:01:46.650 --> 00:01:51.600 And what I have found is that nine times out of ten, if there is frustration 00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:55.920 that you're feeling or something is getting in the way of you being able to 00:01:56.010 --> 00:02:00.900 lead effectively, many times they might end up being one of these beliefs that 00:02:00.900 --> 00:02:03.150 are completely in your subconscious. 00:02:03.465 --> 00:02:07.665 Or another that has helped you in some form at some point in your 00:02:07.665 --> 00:02:10.315 life, but may not be helping you in the situation that you're in. 00:02:10.785 --> 00:02:13.755 Matt Abrahams: I always think it's useful to think through some of 00:02:13.755 --> 00:02:17.234 these barriers and beliefs, and identify them, so that we can then 00:02:17.234 --> 00:02:19.334 become focused on trying to fix them. 00:02:19.515 --> 00:02:23.565 In looking at your list, I'm like, oh boy, I've got a few of these going on. 00:02:23.744 --> 00:02:24.075 Muriel Wilkins: Yeah. 00:02:24.075 --> 00:02:27.045 Matt, I'll tell you, as I wrote this book and I worked through each 00:02:27.045 --> 00:02:30.355 of the beliefs, I was pretty sure I only had like maybe two of them. 00:02:30.355 --> 00:02:34.595 And every time I would finish a chapter, I'd be like, oh my God, damn it. 00:02:34.595 --> 00:02:35.554 I have this one too. 00:02:36.065 --> 00:02:38.915 Matt Abrahams: The one that rings really true for me is the can't say no. 00:02:38.915 --> 00:02:42.364 And in fact, when we were last on the show, we talked about that and you gave 00:02:42.364 --> 00:02:47.105 me some good advice and I've dialed that one down a bit, but it's still there. 00:02:47.105 --> 00:02:51.305 And I do have a lot of being afraid of making mistakes and there's 00:02:51.305 --> 00:02:53.915 a lot of pressure given what I do to feel like I have to have 00:02:53.915 --> 00:02:55.200 a good right answer for things. 00:02:55.895 --> 00:02:59.195 Muriel Wilkins: It can be because we associate, we identify with them so much. 00:02:59.195 --> 00:03:01.835 Maybe it's been what's been the key to your success. 00:03:02.225 --> 00:03:06.305 And so I think a part of it is to what extent have you taken some 00:03:06.305 --> 00:03:10.925 time to potentially redefine what success might look like for you now, 00:03:11.105 --> 00:03:15.665 and does that belief, that driving principle, still serve you in terms 00:03:15.665 --> 00:03:17.555 of the new definition of success? 00:03:18.165 --> 00:03:18.525 Matt Abrahams: Wow. 00:03:18.525 --> 00:03:21.675 Already providing really useful information for me personally. 00:03:21.735 --> 00:03:24.765 And I think everybody listening in that a lot of these beliefs are 00:03:24.765 --> 00:03:27.105 tied to how we envision success. 00:03:27.135 --> 00:03:29.925 And if you change that vision of what success looks like, 00:03:29.925 --> 00:03:31.125 that can make a big difference. 00:03:31.125 --> 00:03:34.515 I appreciate that, and which leads me naturally to the next question. 00:03:34.755 --> 00:03:39.405 You talk through three stages on how to get unblocked from your hidden beliefs. 00:03:39.675 --> 00:03:40.935 Can you walk us through these? 00:03:41.295 --> 00:03:45.180 Muriel Wilkins: We live in a very action biased culture. 00:03:45.180 --> 00:03:50.730 I, myself, is somebody who for most of my life, have been very prone to take action 00:03:50.730 --> 00:03:55.710 as quickly as I can, and what I found is that while we can move to action to 00:03:55.710 --> 00:04:01.200 change our approach, if we don't also take some time to think through what might be 00:04:01.200 --> 00:04:05.340 leading to that action, we'll come back right to where we started to begin with. 00:04:05.340 --> 00:04:10.245 So, the three step process is to try to mitigate us having to return to that 00:04:10.245 --> 00:04:12.195 starting point over and over again. 00:04:12.555 --> 00:04:14.565 The first step is to uncover. 00:04:14.835 --> 00:04:19.575 The second step is to unpack, and the third step is to unblock. 00:04:19.605 --> 00:04:22.665 Let me take a little bit of a deep dive on each one of those. 00:04:22.965 --> 00:04:26.595 So with uncover, it's number one, understanding that there might be 00:04:26.595 --> 00:04:30.245 dissonance between the way that what you want to achieve and what 00:04:30.245 --> 00:04:31.775 you're actually achieving, right? 00:04:31.775 --> 00:04:37.175 So in your case, maybe when the, I can't say no belief was driving you, maybe you 00:04:37.175 --> 00:04:40.565 were finding that, hey, I'd really only like to have five things on my to-do 00:04:40.565 --> 00:04:42.515 list, but here I have fifty instead. 00:04:42.575 --> 00:04:45.875 So there's something that's queuing you up, that something is off, 00:04:45.875 --> 00:04:47.105 something doesn't feel right. 00:04:47.495 --> 00:04:52.164 And you can then ask yourself, what is the belief that is driving this 00:04:52.164 --> 00:04:56.364 potential situation that I'm in, or the behavior that I'm having, or what I'm 00:04:56.364 --> 00:04:58.405 seeing manifest itself in front of me. 00:04:58.614 --> 00:05:00.354 So you uncover the belief. 00:05:00.354 --> 00:05:01.405 And what is a belief? 00:05:01.405 --> 00:05:05.515 A belief is a story that you tell yourself it's not a bad or a good, it's 00:05:05.515 --> 00:05:07.854 not a wrong or a right, it just is. 00:05:07.854 --> 00:05:11.965 It is the operating principle that is driving your behavior 00:05:11.965 --> 00:05:13.229 or the decisions that you make. 00:05:13.805 --> 00:05:16.925 Once you can uncover that, then you can go to unpack. 00:05:16.985 --> 00:05:20.585 And the unpack is to familiarize yourself with why you have 00:05:20.585 --> 00:05:22.115 that mindset to begin with. 00:05:22.475 --> 00:05:27.155 In what way has it served you up until now, as we just talked about, in 00:05:27.155 --> 00:05:29.285 what ways has it made you successful? 00:05:29.575 --> 00:05:32.125 Then, is it making you successful now? 00:05:32.125 --> 00:05:35.544 Is it driving to the outcomes that you wanna drive to? 00:05:35.844 --> 00:05:39.984 And if it's not, then you can allow yourself to move into the third 00:05:39.984 --> 00:05:43.435 stage, which is unblock, which is what most people wanna run to right away. 00:05:43.794 --> 00:05:46.495 And in unblock, you reframe the belief, right? 00:05:46.495 --> 00:05:49.974 So you reframe in your language, the communication that you're having with 00:05:49.974 --> 00:05:56.015 yourself, and you reframe it to a message, to a mantra, to a narrative that actually 00:05:56.015 --> 00:05:59.945 is going to serve you in this moment, and how do you know it's serving you? 00:06:00.185 --> 00:06:03.845 It's more aligned with the outcomes that you want to achieve and 00:06:03.845 --> 00:06:06.965 increases the probability that you will get to those outcomes. 00:06:07.295 --> 00:06:11.195 Once you've done that, you can then ask yourself, okay, so if that is what I 00:06:11.195 --> 00:06:13.595 believe now, what actions can I take? 00:06:13.595 --> 00:06:15.365 What actions does it open up for me? 00:06:15.765 --> 00:06:20.474 What can I do that not only helps me get to those outcomes that I desire, 00:06:20.685 --> 00:06:22.604 but also reinforces that belief? 00:06:22.664 --> 00:06:27.914 And then you have set the path to actually leading or behaving or communicating 00:06:28.185 --> 00:06:31.724 in a way that's more sustainable than if you just move to action right away. 00:06:32.370 --> 00:06:35.070 Matt Abrahams: The tendency I have and many people I work with is, hey, let's 00:06:35.070 --> 00:06:38.100 get to that unblocked stage, but I really appreciate you breaking down the 00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:40.230 uncover, the unpack, and the unblock. 00:06:40.230 --> 00:06:43.770 And it boils down to the stories we tell ourselves, those beliefs, and 00:06:43.770 --> 00:06:48.420 then questioning that and then changing that narrative and that leads us to the 00:06:48.420 --> 00:06:53.485 new action that can help us mitigate change, evolve, grow from those problems. 00:06:53.485 --> 00:06:54.835 And I really appreciate that. 00:06:55.165 --> 00:07:00.115 I just recently spent some time thinking through, I did a values exercise 00:07:00.415 --> 00:07:04.195 to try to help me really understand what success looks like for me. 00:07:04.495 --> 00:07:08.755 And from that, that led me to, I think, be better at unblocking. 00:07:08.755 --> 00:07:11.545 And I'm putting this process, I put myself through into your 00:07:11.605 --> 00:07:13.284 steps and I can see the values. 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:15.780 Muriel Wilkins: Even with values, we sometimes have to 00:07:15.780 --> 00:07:17.460 kick the can on them, right? 00:07:17.460 --> 00:07:18.960 Where did those values come from? 00:07:18.960 --> 00:07:24.240 Are they truly your values or are they the learned values that you adopted 00:07:24.330 --> 00:07:31.080 as a way of making you feel worthy, accepted, and safe in your original tribe 00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:34.795 or the original community that you're a part of, or early on in your career? 00:07:35.230 --> 00:07:39.610 That may not be necessarily the values that you need now in the 00:07:39.610 --> 00:07:43.480 position that you're in, or in the type of leadership role that you're 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.990 in, that are gonna help you get to again, the success that you want. 00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:50.470 Matt Abrahams: It's a little spooky, Muriel, because what you just said is 00:07:50.470 --> 00:07:52.570 exactly of the process I went through. 00:07:52.570 --> 00:07:54.700 It was, where are the values coming from? 00:07:54.700 --> 00:07:59.200 And a lot of it for me was my early career, I had some mentors and some 00:07:59.200 --> 00:08:03.930 people I really admired, and they inculcated in me some of these values. 00:08:04.230 --> 00:08:08.880 And yet now being in a very different stage in my career, those values 00:08:08.970 --> 00:08:10.440 are different and needed to evolve. 00:08:11.130 --> 00:08:14.910 You distinguish between both healthy and toxic productivity. 00:08:15.030 --> 00:08:18.090 What is the difference and how can we focus on the healthy stuff? 00:08:18.090 --> 00:08:20.610 Because I had never thought of toxic productivity, but I 00:08:20.610 --> 00:08:21.880 think I might be wading in that. 00:08:22.664 --> 00:08:25.664 Muriel Wilkins: It's so interesting 'cause sometimes we just talk about productivity, 00:08:25.664 --> 00:08:27.075 which is about getting things done. 00:08:27.525 --> 00:08:30.495 And there's healthy productivity and toxic productivity. 00:08:30.495 --> 00:08:35.385 Toxic productivity is getting things done at any cost, and it is universally 00:08:35.444 --> 00:08:40.544 applied across anything that has the notion of needing to be completed. 00:08:40.814 --> 00:08:44.715 And by the way, the toxic productivity is really driven by 00:08:44.715 --> 00:08:47.175 a mindset of, I need it done now. 00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:52.650 There's a sense of urgency in everything and everything needs to be done. 00:08:52.860 --> 00:08:56.820 While healthy productivity is more about doing things and 00:08:56.820 --> 00:08:58.590 focusing on things that matter. 00:08:58.890 --> 00:09:03.030 So beyond that, you have to understand then what is it that matters, right? 00:09:03.030 --> 00:09:05.700 There's a certain level of prioritization that needs to happen. 00:09:06.450 --> 00:09:11.280 And the belief that will drive the healthy productivity is more around 00:09:11.280 --> 00:09:16.080 something like, I'll do the best that I can with the time that I have. 00:09:16.410 --> 00:09:20.700 So what I love about that is that it takes into account that we have 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:22.680 constraints, whether we like it or not. 00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:24.030 We have guardrails. 00:09:24.270 --> 00:09:27.360 And the guardrails are what is the best that I can do? 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:31.590 Meaning what is within my capabilities or my team's capabilities, or the 00:09:31.590 --> 00:09:35.310 organization's capabilities, and what is the time limit that I have? 00:09:35.845 --> 00:09:38.485 Then what's doable within that timeframe? 00:09:38.785 --> 00:09:43.525 And there is a cost to both toxic and an opportunity with healthy 00:09:43.795 --> 00:09:47.454 that we can see happen within organizations, but also on ourselves. 00:09:47.454 --> 00:09:50.095 So most people don't really discern between the two. 00:09:50.095 --> 00:09:53.965 They just think about being productive rather than shifting their mindset 00:09:53.965 --> 00:09:56.755 so that they can have one type of productivity versus the other. 00:09:57.405 --> 00:10:00.224 Matt Abrahams: I really do need to distinguish that because I have 00:10:00.224 --> 00:10:02.025 that mentality of just get it done. 00:10:02.025 --> 00:10:03.974 And the biggest thing that suffers is my sleep. 00:10:04.035 --> 00:10:05.265 And I have a new mantra. 00:10:05.324 --> 00:10:08.175 I'm gonna do the best that I can with the time that I have. 00:10:08.295 --> 00:10:12.405 And the distinction that you make really reminds me of that distinction between 00:10:12.405 --> 00:10:13.844 what's urgent and what's important. 00:10:14.145 --> 00:10:18.255 And if you live in that world of urgency, that's that toxicity you're talking about. 00:10:18.255 --> 00:10:21.074 Where while you might get things checked off your checklist, you 00:10:21.074 --> 00:10:22.785 put yourself at a disadvantage. 00:10:22.785 --> 00:10:25.155 And I do appreciate you giving me that new mantra. 00:10:25.415 --> 00:10:27.455 Muriel Wilkins: There's also the other side of that formula, which 00:10:27.455 --> 00:10:30.965 is if you regard everything as important, not everything is important. 00:10:31.115 --> 00:10:33.245 Matt Abrahams: And again, comes back to your values and your 00:10:33.245 --> 00:10:35.105 beliefs, which really are important. 00:10:35.615 --> 00:10:38.315 You know, last time we talked, we discussed the importance of mindset. 00:10:38.405 --> 00:10:41.735 I know you've spent even more time since we last talked, thinking 00:10:41.735 --> 00:10:45.215 about and studying the impact of mindset on wellbeing and success. 00:10:45.515 --> 00:10:48.425 Can you share the new thoughts that you have about mindset? 00:10:48.870 --> 00:10:50.819 Muriel Wilkins: Absolutely, and these thoughts aren't mine. 00:10:50.819 --> 00:10:55.050 I just became more curious about mindset because I found that not only with 00:10:55.050 --> 00:10:58.860 myself and my own life experience and leadership experience, but also with my 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:02.730 clients, that they were moving to action, but the actions weren't sustainable. 00:11:02.730 --> 00:11:04.829 And so it got me curious around why is that? 00:11:05.325 --> 00:11:09.855 I'm a big fan of reverse engineering, and when I reverse engineered, I'm like, 00:11:09.855 --> 00:11:11.025 well, let's start at the beginning. 00:11:11.025 --> 00:11:15.255 And the story in the, the beginning is the story we tell ourselves about what we do. 00:11:15.585 --> 00:11:19.785 You know, one of the studies that really fascinated me was a study by 00:11:20.175 --> 00:11:23.805 Alia Crum, and she's a social scientist, and so she did that study with the 00:11:23.805 --> 00:11:27.615 hotel attendants where they asked those hotel attendants, do you think 00:11:27.615 --> 00:11:29.385 that the work that you do is exercise? 00:11:29.385 --> 00:11:30.195 And they were like, no. 00:11:30.505 --> 00:11:33.715 And so they said, well, what if you did your work and all you had to do was 00:11:33.715 --> 00:11:35.215 change the way you think about your work? 00:11:35.215 --> 00:11:36.625 You think about it as exercise. 00:11:36.990 --> 00:11:43.500 Four weeks later with that small shift, they saw significant enough improvement 00:11:43.589 --> 00:11:48.390 in the health and fitness of these individuals just by the mindset change. 00:11:48.719 --> 00:11:54.990 And that fascinated me and her conclusion, which is that it's not just about what 00:11:54.990 --> 00:12:00.960 we do, but it's about what we think about what we do that makes all the difference, 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:03.300 literally was a game changer for me. 00:12:03.300 --> 00:12:06.600 And I started taking that approach with my coaching clients. 00:12:06.900 --> 00:12:11.250 In terms of really exploring, how are you thinking or what is it that 00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:14.940 you're thinking about the conversation you're having with your colleague? 00:12:15.180 --> 00:12:18.360 What is it that you're thinking about, that presentation 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:19.770 that you're about to go make? 00:12:20.010 --> 00:12:23.400 What is it that you're thinking about that rapport or that deck 00:12:23.400 --> 00:12:24.780 that you have to put together? 00:12:25.485 --> 00:12:31.575 By the shifting the way that you think about the thing, not only may have a 00:12:31.575 --> 00:12:37.125 direct outcome on the thing itself, but even more importantly, Matt, it changes 00:12:37.125 --> 00:12:40.095 your experience of doing the thing, right? 00:12:40.845 --> 00:12:45.675 In my world, I really just want leaders to be able to lead 00:12:45.675 --> 00:12:47.564 with a little more ease, right? 00:12:47.805 --> 00:12:49.755 Doesn't have to be as difficult as we make it. 00:12:49.755 --> 00:12:53.805 The challenges are challenging enough, but if we can approach them and respond 00:12:53.805 --> 00:12:58.005 to them with a little more ease, boy would that open up opportunities. 00:12:58.005 --> 00:13:03.165 And I think the mindset, the way that you do the work or what you think 00:13:03.165 --> 00:13:07.245 about the work is what can open up that possibility of leading with more ease. 00:13:07.935 --> 00:13:10.334 Matt Abrahams: I love Alia's work and like you, I see a 00:13:10.334 --> 00:13:11.685 tremendous amount of power in it. 00:13:11.685 --> 00:13:13.515 It's how we frame and reframe it. 00:13:13.724 --> 00:13:15.074 I'll give an example from my life. 00:13:15.074 --> 00:13:18.224 One of the things that had been difficult for me was the 00:13:18.224 --> 00:13:19.814 grading part of the job I do. 00:13:19.814 --> 00:13:21.314 As a teacher I have to give grades. 00:13:21.314 --> 00:13:24.645 And I always saw that as, it was not something that I would get up in the 00:13:24.645 --> 00:13:29.594 morning excited to do, but, and when I reframed grading as actually another form 00:13:29.594 --> 00:13:34.155 of teaching, which I am very passionate about, it was like a game changer. 00:13:34.155 --> 00:13:37.335 So reframing can really change the way in which you interact. 00:13:37.515 --> 00:13:39.495 And I wanna highlight something else for everybody. 00:13:39.645 --> 00:13:43.605 The way you got to where you did on your perspective on mindset and 00:13:43.605 --> 00:13:45.795 reframing is by reverse engineering. 00:13:45.795 --> 00:13:49.455 And I think that is such a powerful tool, and I know you use it a lot to 00:13:49.485 --> 00:13:52.635 understand things in your own life and the lives of those that you coach. 00:13:52.815 --> 00:13:55.455 Can you walk us through how you think about reverse engineering? 00:13:55.455 --> 00:13:58.135 Because for many people that's not an intuitive thing to do. 00:13:58.995 --> 00:14:01.635 Muriel Wilkins: My tendency is to be very results oriented, right? 00:14:01.635 --> 00:14:02.835 Very outcomes driven. 00:14:02.835 --> 00:14:07.695 I've, I'm, a lot of the work on myself is to not be so attached to the outcome, but 00:14:07.695 --> 00:14:12.315 when I look at the outcome, either the outcome that has occurred or the outcome 00:14:12.315 --> 00:14:17.445 that I want, or that I desire, I can then look and say, okay, this is what I desire. 00:14:17.445 --> 00:14:18.790 This is what I want to achieve. 00:14:19.530 --> 00:14:21.390 Let me work backwards, right? 00:14:21.570 --> 00:14:26.010 What would I need to do to be able, so that's the action, what would I need to 00:14:26.010 --> 00:14:28.230 do to be able to achieve that outcome? 00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:32.640 If that's the action, how would I need to feel about that action 00:14:32.760 --> 00:14:36.270 in order for it, the increase the probability that I would actually do 00:14:36.270 --> 00:14:37.455 it, or that we can make it happen. 00:14:38.295 --> 00:14:41.565 And then from the feeling I can work backwards and say, what would I need to 00:14:41.655 --> 00:14:46.575 think, what would I need to believe, in order to increase the probability that I 00:14:46.575 --> 00:14:49.515 could feel and also fulfill those actions? 00:14:49.845 --> 00:14:53.055 And then, and that's where the reverse engineering is, are those thoughts or 00:14:53.055 --> 00:14:55.845 what I need to believe, are they aligned with the way that I believe right now? 00:14:56.580 --> 00:14:58.080 If it's yes, great. 00:14:58.260 --> 00:15:04.050 If it's not, then here's an opportunity to reframe the belief, not lose the one 00:15:04.050 --> 00:15:07.800 that I've had, just put it to the side momentarily until it's useful again. 00:15:08.070 --> 00:15:13.885 But there needs to be alignment between how I think, how I feel, and how I act 00:15:14.155 --> 00:15:16.555 in order to achieve a particular outcome. 00:15:16.795 --> 00:15:20.995 Start with the outcome and then work it backwards to say, okay, what 00:15:20.995 --> 00:15:22.525 would that alignment look for me? 00:15:22.525 --> 00:15:27.265 When we feel frustration or we feel dissonance or we feel stuck, it's 00:15:27.325 --> 00:15:30.685 often because there's somewhere along the line, there's some misalignment. 00:15:31.199 --> 00:15:33.360 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for walking us through that backward mapping. 00:15:33.390 --> 00:15:37.439 I spend a lot of my time talking about how people should have a clear goal 00:15:37.439 --> 00:15:41.670 in their communication, and I use this structure of know, feel, do, and you've 00:15:41.670 --> 00:15:45.660 just applied no, feel, do, in a very different way to help us with our internal 00:15:45.660 --> 00:15:50.160 communication, to align ourselves to the beliefs we have and the beliefs 00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:51.900 we should have to achieve our goals. 00:15:51.900 --> 00:15:54.660 I really appreciate that backward mapping process. 00:15:55.215 --> 00:15:56.655 You are an expert coach. 00:15:56.655 --> 00:16:00.855 I certainly have benefited from this conversation, but last time you were kind 00:16:00.855 --> 00:16:04.155 enough to coach me through a challenge I was having around setting boundaries. 00:16:04.155 --> 00:16:07.605 Your advice was incredibly helpful and foundationally changed how I do some 00:16:07.605 --> 00:16:11.655 things, and anybody wanting to hear that advice can go back to episode 102 to hear. 00:16:11.895 --> 00:16:14.595 Would you be willing to coach me on another issue I'm having? 00:16:14.715 --> 00:16:15.165 Muriel Wilkins: Of course. 00:16:15.165 --> 00:16:16.335 If you're willing, I'm down. 00:16:16.830 --> 00:16:20.280 Matt Abrahams: One of the things that I struggle with is I get very emotionally 00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:25.050 invested in my work and as a result, often find myself exhausted and run down. 00:16:25.290 --> 00:16:27.390 Any advice, I don't wanna lose my passion. 00:16:27.390 --> 00:16:30.900 I think that's one of the strengths I bring to the things I do, but I also 00:16:30.900 --> 00:16:32.850 don't wanna lose more sleep and energy. 00:16:33.210 --> 00:16:36.210 Muriel Wilkins: So let me just ask you, when you say emotionally invested, what's 00:16:36.210 --> 00:16:37.890 the emotion and what's the investment? 00:16:38.190 --> 00:16:41.850 Matt Abrahams: I have a lot of curiosity and passion to help. 00:16:42.270 --> 00:16:47.010 So in many of these situations I see opportunities to learn, to 00:16:47.010 --> 00:16:49.050 help others learn, and to help. 00:16:49.170 --> 00:16:52.530 And so the biggest emotions that drive me are those curiosity 00:16:52.530 --> 00:16:53.670 and the desire to help. 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:58.350 And the investment is often time, not just time in conversation 00:16:58.350 --> 00:17:01.170 and work to accomplish that, but it's just mental time. 00:17:01.170 --> 00:17:04.079 I am somebody who ruminates, who reflects. 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:08.339 And so even when I'm not doing the work, when I'm trying to vegetate, sitting 00:17:08.339 --> 00:17:12.885 in front of the TV or I'm going for a walk, it occupies my time in my head. 00:17:12.885 --> 00:17:15.375 So the investment is a lot and constant. 00:17:15.645 --> 00:17:16.034 Muriel Wilkins: Yeah. 00:17:16.425 --> 00:17:21.135 And so what would it look like for you to still be able to exercise 00:17:21.135 --> 00:17:27.165 that passion you have and the desire you have to help others and not let 00:17:27.165 --> 00:17:31.215 it consume you as much as you feel it does, or you've stated it does. 00:17:31.860 --> 00:17:33.450 Matt Abrahams: I actually don't know the answer to that question. 00:17:33.450 --> 00:17:36.210 I do have some role models, some people that I really admire 00:17:36.210 --> 00:17:37.590 who seem to be able to do it. 00:17:37.590 --> 00:17:40.800 So what I've noticed that they can do is they're able to compartmentalize. 00:17:41.190 --> 00:17:44.460 They're able to say, okay, just spent time doing that. 00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:45.659 Gonna put a bow on. 00:17:45.659 --> 00:17:48.990 It might come back to it later, and I'm gonna move on to something else. 00:17:49.260 --> 00:17:51.659 The other thing I've noticed that people do is they have some 00:17:51.659 --> 00:17:53.460 kind of transitioning ritual. 00:17:53.820 --> 00:17:56.700 It could be taking a walk, it could be calling a friend, 00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.960 it could be checking email. 00:17:58.320 --> 00:18:02.970 And I've noticed that, I haven't been able to find a good transitioning ritual to 00:18:02.970 --> 00:18:05.100 get myself out of whatever I'm focused on. 00:18:05.520 --> 00:18:07.980 Muriel Wilkins: What do you believe that you think gets in the way of 00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:09.540 you being able to compartmentalize? 00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:12.659 Matt Abrahams: When I reflect on what we've talked about just previously, 00:18:12.659 --> 00:18:16.980 I think there is an underlying belief that commitment to something I'm 00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:19.590 passionate about is full on commitment. 00:18:19.620 --> 00:18:23.820 And in some way, I'm failing, either myself or the other people involved, 00:18:23.850 --> 00:18:26.189 if I'm not constantly working on it. 00:18:26.189 --> 00:18:29.699 And that was an unlock for me from our earlier part of this conversation. 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:35.010 And perhaps I need to revisit that belief that failure is nothing less than 00:18:35.010 --> 00:18:36.659 a hundred and ten percent investment. 00:18:37.050 --> 00:18:37.560 Muriel Wilkins: Yeah. 00:18:37.770 --> 00:18:38.700 Well, let's try it. 00:18:38.790 --> 00:18:43.680 How would you redefine that belief now in a way that would allow you to both 00:18:43.770 --> 00:18:46.350 drive to your passion and get more sleep? 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:48.270 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so I, I think the first thing I have 00:18:48.270 --> 00:18:49.680 to do is ask other people. 00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:53.310 I'm realizing I make the assumption of what success looks like for me, and 00:18:53.310 --> 00:18:56.520 perhaps those that I'm trying to serve in that moment, or what that project or 00:18:56.520 --> 00:19:00.000 whatever it is, might have a different version of success that is not as amped 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.950 up and intense as the one that I have. 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:05.160 And so I think getting external for myself might be helpful. 00:19:05.679 --> 00:19:08.830 Then perhaps setting some boundaries around investment. 00:19:08.830 --> 00:19:11.740 Like while this is important, prioritize it relative to the 00:19:11.740 --> 00:19:12.939 other things that are important. 00:19:13.389 --> 00:19:15.939 Muriel Wilkins: So my advice to you would be to go back and 00:19:15.939 --> 00:19:19.419 redefine, as we said earlier in the conversation, redefine success. 00:19:19.419 --> 00:19:23.080 Because if success means I can do all the things and I need to 00:19:23.080 --> 00:19:27.010 do all the things in order for other people to be helped, right? 00:19:27.010 --> 00:19:31.360 Because it's grounded in helping, defining that would be helpful to you. 00:19:31.360 --> 00:19:35.535 And as you said, maybe getting some outside measure of what that looks like. 00:19:35.535 --> 00:19:39.315 Because what might be good enough for others might not be the way that 00:19:39.315 --> 00:19:41.535 you are defining good enough for you. 00:19:41.715 --> 00:19:46.605 And so getting that outside metric to really help reformulate your 00:19:46.605 --> 00:19:49.545 definition of success, which is a belief in and of itself. 00:19:49.875 --> 00:19:53.325 And then let that drive how you're prioritizing, how you're 00:19:53.325 --> 00:19:55.875 creating boundaries and all of the other things that you just said. 00:19:56.429 --> 00:19:58.740 Matt Abrahams: You are so good at what you do. 00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:02.610 I think an external recalibration and an internal recalibration 00:20:02.610 --> 00:20:05.564 of what success is for me will really help in this circumstance. 00:20:06.975 --> 00:20:09.945 You know that before we end, I always like to ask three questions. 00:20:09.945 --> 00:20:13.035 One I create just for you and the other two I've been asking people forever. 00:20:13.035 --> 00:20:13.725 Are you up for that? 00:20:13.845 --> 00:20:14.565 Muriel Wilkins: Absolutely. 00:20:14.745 --> 00:20:18.254 Matt Abrahams: So you had mentioned that when you were writing about the barriers 00:20:18.254 --> 00:20:22.065 that get in the way for some leaders, that you actually recognize some in yourself. 00:20:22.065 --> 00:20:25.084 So I'm curious, if you're willing to disclose, what's one of the 00:20:25.084 --> 00:20:27.844 challenges that you have and how are you working on that? 00:20:28.145 --> 00:20:31.145 Muriel Wilkins: I ended up recognizing myself in all of them, but the one 00:20:31.145 --> 00:20:35.584 that probably has been the longest standing one, and that I have learned 00:20:35.584 --> 00:20:39.125 to befriend because it's not going away, nor do I need it to go away, 00:20:39.125 --> 00:20:40.110 is that I need to be involved. 00:20:40.800 --> 00:20:46.050 And underlying that is this false belief that if I'm not involved, 00:20:46.050 --> 00:20:47.370 everything's gonna fall apart. 00:20:47.610 --> 00:20:50.070 And I understand where it comes from. 00:20:50.129 --> 00:20:54.389 And by understanding where it comes from, I give myself a lot more grace 00:20:54.629 --> 00:20:59.610 because I also recognize that where that belief was cultivated and formed 00:20:59.610 --> 00:21:01.379 is not the place that I'm in right now. 00:21:01.590 --> 00:21:05.550 And so the work for me is constantly reminding myself that I am in the 00:21:05.550 --> 00:21:08.879 here and now, and I'm not in the place where that belief was actually 00:21:08.879 --> 00:21:11.265 quite critical to my success. 00:21:11.265 --> 00:21:15.825 And therefore, I can let it go for a little bit or put it to the side and use a 00:21:15.825 --> 00:21:20.630 different one to help me get my work done and be more effective in the here and now. 00:21:21.270 --> 00:21:23.130 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate you sharing that with us. 00:21:23.130 --> 00:21:23.730 Thank you. 00:21:24.090 --> 00:21:27.660 So you had an opportunity to give an answer to this question before. 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:30.540 I'm wondering if it has changed at all, but who is a communicator 00:21:30.540 --> 00:21:32.400 that you admire and why? 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:36.480 Muriel Wilkins: The one that's coming to mind for me today is Dr. 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:42.245 Gabor Maté who does a lot of work around mental health and mindset. 00:21:42.365 --> 00:21:47.405 And what I really appreciate about the way that he communicates is, number one, 00:21:47.405 --> 00:21:52.715 he's able to take what feels like complex ideas and break them down in very simple 00:21:52.715 --> 00:21:55.265 terms for anyone to really understand. 00:21:55.385 --> 00:21:58.815 Number two, he is an amazing storyteller. 00:21:59.095 --> 00:22:04.540 And by telling the story associated with the concepts, it allows it to 00:22:04.540 --> 00:22:07.179 be relatable and also memorable. 00:22:07.659 --> 00:22:12.100 And number three, he just exudes authenticity, right? 00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:16.459 Like he, I don't know if you've ever heard him speak, but you literally feel 00:22:16.459 --> 00:22:19.969 like he's sitting right in front of you just having a conversation with you, 00:22:20.179 --> 00:22:23.990 and it's not him trying to be anyone else, or it doesn't feel like that. 00:22:23.990 --> 00:22:24.949 It doesn't feel performative. 00:22:24.949 --> 00:22:28.159 It just feels like him, like that's who he would be, whether he is having a 00:22:28.159 --> 00:22:32.179 coffee chat with you or whether he's on stage in front of thousands of people. 00:22:32.179 --> 00:22:36.590 So he's someone I hugely admire, and not just in terms of the work that he does, 00:22:36.590 --> 00:22:38.840 but also his communication approach. 00:22:39.060 --> 00:22:43.230 Matt Abrahams: The ability to make things accessible, but also be very 00:22:43.230 --> 00:22:45.120 authentic, very powerful skills. 00:22:45.300 --> 00:22:47.580 So since you were last year, I'm wondering if your answer to our 00:22:47.580 --> 00:22:49.410 final question has changed as well. 00:22:49.410 --> 00:22:54.810 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:22:55.139 --> 00:22:57.179 Muriel Wilkins: I think you have to start with the why. 00:22:57.389 --> 00:23:00.330 So why are you communicating what you're communicating? 00:23:00.330 --> 00:23:01.560 What's the purpose behind it? 00:23:01.739 --> 00:23:04.110 Because if there's not a purpose, you should be asking yourself whether you 00:23:04.110 --> 00:23:05.729 should be communicating it at all. 00:23:06.060 --> 00:23:07.770 I think the second is the how. 00:23:07.889 --> 00:23:10.739 What is the best way for me to communicate this? 00:23:10.739 --> 00:23:14.345 And that is grounded again in this question of how do I want to 00:23:14.345 --> 00:23:16.385 experience myself as I communicate it? 00:23:16.564 --> 00:23:18.605 How do I want others to experience me? 00:23:18.635 --> 00:23:22.175 How do I want them to feel when they leave that communication? 00:23:22.595 --> 00:23:28.324 And then the third is, in what way do I need to reframe what I believe about 00:23:28.324 --> 00:23:32.675 what I'm communicating in order for me to be able to communicate it effectively? 00:23:32.915 --> 00:23:34.715 So it still goes back to mindset. 00:23:34.715 --> 00:23:37.834 Going back to what we talked about before, it's not just about what you do, 00:23:37.834 --> 00:23:39.455 but what you think about what you do. 00:23:39.695 --> 00:23:42.965 So what would you need to think about what you're communicating, 00:23:42.965 --> 00:23:47.284 why you're communicating, and how to communicate it for it to optimize the 00:23:47.284 --> 00:23:48.754 communication that you're about to make. 00:23:49.054 --> 00:23:49.955 Matt Abrahams: Very clear. 00:23:50.165 --> 00:23:54.334 Why, how, and then how do I reframe it to make sense to, not only to 00:23:54.334 --> 00:23:55.955 me, but to those I communicate with. 00:23:56.074 --> 00:23:56.284 Muriel Wilkins: That's right. 00:23:56.745 --> 00:23:59.030 Matt Abrahams: Muriel, this was a fantastic conversation 00:23:59.030 --> 00:24:00.530 as I knew it would be. 00:24:00.530 --> 00:24:04.760 You opened up my mind and hopefully everybody's listening to how we can 00:24:04.760 --> 00:24:07.639 be more effective in our own lives and how leaders can lead better, 00:24:07.639 --> 00:24:10.520 how we can unblock ourselves from the things that get in the way. 00:24:10.850 --> 00:24:14.750 Thank you for your time and best of luck with your new book Leadership Unblocked. 00:24:14.990 --> 00:24:15.950 Muriel Wilkins: Thank you so much, Matt. 00:24:15.950 --> 00:24:17.240 Always a pleasure to talk to you. 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:21.500 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:24:21.500 --> 00:24:23.270 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:24:23.625 --> 00:24:27.175 Please listen back to Muriel's first visit in episode 102. 00:24:27.495 --> 00:24:31.574 To learn more about leadership, listen to episode 98 with David Dodson. 00:24:31.935 --> 00:24:36.735 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:24:36.975 --> 00:24:38.070 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:40.830 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:24:41.100 --> 00:24:44.220 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:24:44.490 --> 00:24:46.620 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:50.010 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:24:50.340 --> 00:24:54.510 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:24:54.510 --> 00:24:56.670 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:24:56.970 --> 00:25:00.330 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:25:00.410 --> 00:25:06.260 AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more, at fastersmarter.io/premium.