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Josiah Mackenzie: the last couple years have been brutal for hospitality, but, there's many people I've spoken with that have, emerged from that in a better way.

They're, more focused they're coming out of this with, focuses around, everything from design to providing a better guest experience to thinking about, what do they stand for as an organization? it's almost the rebirth of, hospitality in many ways.

And I think a really interesting time to be a participant in that rebirth Welcome to the, The Modern Hotelier you're presented by Stayflexi. I'm your host, David Mallili

Steve Carran: and I'm Steve Carran.

David Millili: Steve, tell us who's on the program today.

Steve Carran: Yeah. David, today we have on Josiah McKenzie, Josiah's career actually started in hospitality, starting at the front desk at a small property on the California coast. From there, he built a hotel marketing website that over 70,000 Hotelier used each month to learn how to increase demand for their properties.

He spent six and a half years at review pro moving up from content manager to vice president. Then after that, he spent a few years at Duetto where he was in charge of demand, generation marketing and sales development. From there, he spent the past couple years working with hotel owners and hospitality, real estate investors at Juniper square.

Now he keeps himself pretty busy as the publisher of hotel operations.com and also hospitality daily. And he's also the principal at Benchmark Research partners. Welcome to the show Josiah.

Josiah Mackenzie: Thanks. Steven David it's. Here.

David Millili: Great. So we are gonna. Walk you through the format. So we're gonna, this is the first time we've got four sections of the program. So we are going to ask you some kind of quick questions just to get to know you a little bit better. then we're gonna get into your career. We're gonna ask you some insights on hospitality, technology what's going on in the industry.

And then we have a couple, audience questions.

Josiah Mackenzie: Very good sounds

David Millili: All right, here we go. What was your first job?

Josiah Mackenzie: First job was removing snow from my neighbor's driveways in Sub-Zero temperatures.

David Millili: if you weren't in hospitality, what would you be doing?

Josiah Mackenzie: I used to say architecture city planning. I love how design can shape how people interact. But I think today I would say something in or around financial technology. I really care deeply about creating opportunities for people and helping people create opportunities for the.

David Millili: Who did you admire? Growing up?

Josiah Mackenzie: I admired my grandmother. She was a writer and a speaker. She had her own radio show and I'm pretty sure if she lived today, she'd be podcasting.

Steve Carran: Yeah.

if you could trade places with any person for a day dead or alive, who would it be?

Josiah Mackenzie: that's a hard question. Uh, I'm gonna go, somebody I'vespoken with recently, uh, as hospitality investor, Richard Fertig, some people call him like the Bobby Axelrod from billions of hospitality. and it seems like he has a really fun life moving between his properties, creating new ones. so I feel like that would be fun to try for a day

David Millili: The best piece of advice you've ever received,

Josiah Mackenzie: be kind to others cuz you never know what they're going through.

David Millili: is there a secret talent that you have that most people don't know you have?

Josiah Mackenzie: I would say. Finding street parking in cities like San Francisco, where parking is pretty hard to find, actually found it on my way to work today. And I felt pretty good about myself.

David Millili: If you were with Judy from the dream, she was on her show. She could parallel park for you. That's her secret talent. Um, so, uh,tell us something that's on your bucket list.

Josiah Mackenzie: I really wanna go to Alaska. I've always wanted to go and haven't had the chance. So hopefully in the next couple years,

David Millili: What's something that scares you or what does scare you, if anything,

missing opportunities, wasting time. I, I feel life is beautiful, but, don't wanna miss anything.

David Millili: got it. And along those lines, what's something that you wish you were better at.

Josiah Mackenzie: Wish I was better at cooking. Actually. I feel like I, uh, enjoy good food and I'm not really good at making it, so I need to fix that.

David Millili: All right. So now this is the last question of this round. So if you could pick one superhero, who would it be? Batman Spiderman or Superman. You have to pick one of the.

Josiah Mackenzie: Definitely Batman, the best bikes in cars, hands down.

Steve Carran: Yes.

David Millili: we've had a good mix, but that's a, I like that answer too, but all right, there you go, Steve.

Steve Carran: Awesome. Wow. That was fast. That was, uh, right off the cuff. That was pretty quick. I love it. So, now just we'll learn a little bit more about you, your background, what makes you tick and things like that. So where were you?

Josiah Mackenzie: I was actually born in Northern Ontario. My dad is, is from Canada and my mom's here from the San Francisco area in California. and so was born there and then grew up in San Francisco as a kid.

Steve Carran: Awesome. Awesome. How did that shape you?

Josiah Mackenzie: I feel it helped me understand people from all walks of life. My, dad was a, steelworker, from Northern Ontario, very, very different life from, my mom growing up. she was a teacher and, just, it feels like their kind of worlds were pulls apart. And I moved around a lot as a kid and I feel that gave me an empathy for people from all different backgrounds.

it made me learn how to, feel comfortable and enjoy living in very different environments. it gave me a sense of adventure. I, think it instilled the travel bug in me pretty early.

David Millili: That's great. So you went to college in Ohio, but then you went to Dublin business school. Why did you choose to go outside of the us for business school,

Josiah Mackenzie: I wanted to, have a different experience. So after growing up as a kid in San Francisco, my family moved to Northern Michigan, and then we spent a little time in Ohio. And so, a lot of time in the Midwest and I just wanted to try something different. I think that fundamentally shaped the course of my career from there, on weekends.

And, during the summer I traveled around Europe, a fair amount, on the Euro pass. And I met so many people who were involved in the hospitality industry. And I never really, thought about the industry that deeply before. And I really caught the hospitality bug in.

David Millili: with all that travel? Do you have two part question? Do you have a favorite city? And do you have a favorite hotel?

Josiah Mackenzie: Oh, man, that's hard. Favorite city I would say is Berlin. It has a incredible creative energy, and great electronic music scene. So it kind of checks all the boxes, and actually pretty diverse range of architecture. think that some people don't initially realize it very, very dynamic city.

close second would be Barcelona. a favorite hotel. This is so hard. I, I think from that era, I would say probably there's a place called the wit Istanbul suites I actually met someone through Twitter. Who's the owner converted an old Ogilvie and Mather, ad agency from the sixties, with all kinds of local products, everything from the porcelain to marbles, to, the textiles in the hotel.

Josiah Mackenzie: And it really kind of showed me the power of design and using local creators to give this sense of, I really feel like I'm in Istanbul, but not necessarily just the historical, kind of legacy that has, but what's going on right now in the city. And so I felt instantly connected kind to the past and the present of what was happening.

I have so many favorite hotels, but I think from that era, that was one that stood out to me early and remains one of my favorites.

Steve Carran: Follow up music. Have you see, who is your favorite artist you saw in Berlin? That was a electric music person or artist I should say.

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm big into kind of progressive house, uh, um,this sort of music and I saw above and beyond show, when I was there. And so, so many good DJs though, so much great music.

Steve Carran: Very cool. Very cool. Kinda last thing about this, it seems like you enjoy bike riding. is that just kind of casual something you do to maybe relieve stress or, you know, get outside? Or do you have any like goals that, you're working towards for that?

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, I actually used to do, a lot more. I, I really enjoy, cycling. I, used to do kind of a mix of, mountain biking and road biking. I'm, doing a little more running these days, and find it to just be a really fun or just, it's a very versatile, sort of thing, you know, so whatever city I in, you can always slice up your shoes and, and go for a little run.

And sometimes those runs turn into a walk because I'm too tired, but, it's a really fun, you know, kind of way to start the day, or if I'm traveling to explore the.

Steve Carran: There you go. Awesome. So now we'll get into your career a little bit. your first job in hospitality was, The Hotel on the California coast. Is that really where you fell in love hospitality, or was that kind of where you got your foot in the door that you more What was it about that that really kind of sparked your interest?

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. So I, would say it, it's where I fell in love with, hospitality in kind of a practical sort of sense. I think I fell in love with hospitality as, many do as a traveler, as a guest of people who are, really good at providing hospitality. So like my friend and Istanbul, I saw the potential and the beauty of it.

as you know, it's, it's a very different thing to be, an operator, somebody who is providing that it's a lot of work. And so this, property was just south of San Francisco. it was a small little place that was, actually part hostile and then they had some private, rooms but very kind.

Josiah Mackenzie: shall we say a lean sort of staffing model where, I was often the person that was checking in guests, cleaning rooms, doing a little social media marketing from time to time updating some systems. And so I got to see a lot of different elements of it. it was deeply, deeply meaningful because, I tend to be a little introverted, but I actually really get a lot of meaning and joy from meeting new people and, hearing their story and, and just connecting with them.

And hospitality is a really unique opportunity to do that. And I remember meeting everyone from people who would be coming in from Europe or Asia and spending weeks on the California coast to people from other parts of the us that were just staying there for a long weekend. so the range of stories that I was able to hear was exciting, but at the end of the day, sometimes I felt a little bit tired , but it was very, very rewarding work.

so Josiah, your background was in technology and more on the software startup side. What caused you to launch hotel marketing strategies in 2008?

Josiah Mackenzie: Well, I think it was a, a fascination with, technologies that were emerging at that point. And so, one thing that we didn't talk about my very, very first job was, removing snow from neighbors driveways, but that was so cold that inspired me to save my money from that job to buy a laptop. And from there, I taught myself to code and was just fascinated by technology.

And, I was building kind of software projects through high school and, through college. And so was always just interested in the opportunity software had to, make people more efficient and do things more effectively. so I was fascinated by that, but I had this love of hospitality.

business, right. And as a way of operating. And so I think that really sparked my interest in starting hotel marketing strategies. This was 2007, 2008. Many businesses were starting to think about what are the implications of sites like trip advisor, like Facebook, like Twitter, where it used to be that if you got a negative guest complaint, you could just throw that little comment card in the, trash.

And, and that was that, but you had this whole power shift where guests, could say anything they want, anywhere. Right. And so I remember a lot of hotels were kind of freaking out about that thinking, okay, now we're losing control. We don't have the ability to control the narrative. but I also saw an opportunity there where people that were providing great hospitality.

Had the chance to earn the loyalty of their guests, you know, through great service, through great operations. And then you earn kind of that loyalty of guests that has always been a driver of success in business, but now you had social media and user generated content amplifying that. Right? So essentially hotel marketing strategies was really focused on that.

It started as a blog. I would talk to people that I thought were doing interesting things in that area. it sort of took off from there over, I built it over a number of years. and we ended up having tens of thousands of people reading, monthly, but it was really at that kind of intersection of, how has the media landscape changed and what new marketing opportunities does that provide?

Steve Carran: absolutely that Midwest cold inspiring people to, uh, get out of it a little bit. Huh?

David Millili: so how did your time at review review pro and Duetto, prepare you for Juniper square.

Josiah Mackenzie: So review pro was a really interesting experience. I initially joined, to help them write about this trend that was happening, where people were talking about their experiences online review pro basically aggregates from all the different review sites and, and gives hotel operators a, chance to see, you know, across all this feedback.

What are people saying? What are the common trends? How can I respond to guests, but also improve my operations overall? And, I got to see the. Power of delighting your guests in, the sense of not only taking care of that in that individual, and making them more likely to come back, but more likely to tell their friends, but thinking about it more systemically where you think about, you know, you have hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of data points around all the areas that your business could improve, but it's public data.

So you also have access to all of this for your competitors. You can see where there's opportunities, what people like about other properties, what services or amenities you could offer, that would attract and delight them as well. So big marketing opportunity. we ended up serving tens of thousands hotels worldwide, and I got to see.

Everything from, you know, that dynamic of the new data that was available, but also how does change management happen? And it's a huge part of adopting and using technology. Innovation is organizationally. How do, how do you get the right people on board? And so, learned a lot through that experience from their move to Duetto, which is focused on, hotel pricing.

And that was really interesting for me. The latter years that I had at review pro, we were really fascinated by understanding this intersection between, guest satisfaction and demand and pricing power. And, we did some work with Chris Anderson at Cornell, to understand actually to quantify that relationship between if you move your guest satisfaction scores up by X percent, what additional pricing power does that give you?

And we built a product that helped hotel brands, you know, like red lion hotels. They actually had hotels that moved into different competitive sets because they were getting so good. They were actually punching above their weight. And so that was really interesting to see. so that was sort of a demand creation activity.

Duetto was really focused on capturing the demand through big data and machine learning and. I got to see more of the economics of, the business, through that experience. and to your question of how that prepared me for my role at Juniper square, Juniper square is a It's the largest platform for private equity, real estate investors, and other private markets investors, to, raise capital and to manage their investor relationships.

Josiah Mackenzie: And so, they work with nearly 2000 investment managers across the country, more than one and a half trillion in assets, under management. And there's quite a few hotel owners in that mix. And I think one thing that stood out to me, Connecting to my previous experiences was how operations is the key to unlocking value in hotel real estate investments.

And this was really interesting because we worked with a lot of multi-family or apartment investors, retail investors, and they were finding that it was, the operational nature of hotels. It's really hard to do well, but if you do it well, you unlock value for your investors in a way that you just can't do in other types of real estate investment.

And so, that was just something that really stood out to me. It was a big kind of focus on, you know, the review pro side of things, but to see the people that are putting big money behind these projects and to say it's, it's actually operations at unlocks value, was a really interesting, thread line to follow.

Steve Carran: And we're gonna talk more about that in a little bit here. I want to talk about what you're working on now in April, you, uh, kind of started two, maybe three ventures. now you're the publisher of hotel operations.com and you're also the principal at benchmark research partners.

can you tell us a little bit more about these, two companies and kinda why you decided, decided to start them?

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. So, Benchmark Research is focused on helping people in industries like hospitality and real estate, other, industries understand rapidly changing markets. We sort of came across the idea a little bit by accident. It was when I was at Juniper square. the clients we were serving had a need to figure out in the early days of COVID, how are we gonna navigate it?

Right. And so obviously that was a highly, volatile environment and people weren't sure how to best serve their, tenants, how to work with banks. And so we basically. would run these surveys and we would provide peer to peer information. Here's what your peers are thinking about this, right?

And it became a tremendously valuable resource for the industry. It's something we continue to this day. I still work with Juniper square, on that, but I wanted to help, people in other industries navigate this as well. So since then, I've, worked with a variety of firms in hospitality. And some outside of hospitality to kind of figure on figure out things like what is going on in technology, how are people implementing it?

What's not working right among the people who are using things like technology, the best, what are the common factors? So I'm trying to get to the root of what is the difference makers here and what are best practices that we can take, not necessarily just anecdotally, but from a fairly large sample set, and then we can have research driven best practices.

So that's, that's a big part of, what I do. I started hotel operations, to be this repository of, best practices for operators, right? So it, stems from this idea that operations is the single biggest point of leverage for unlocking value for guests, for employees, for investors. And I wanted to have both research, driven insights as well as case studies of top performers.

And so basically I. Sit down with, with some of the best performing firms. And I have them go into the details of what's working for them, whether that's in recruiting or managing their teams, leading their teams, or thinking about operational practices, thinking about technology. so I'm building this repository where people can learn how to run their hotels effectively and kind of on a triple bottom line of, happy guests, happy staff and happy investors, because you're making a lot of profits.

David Millili: So as we continue to get to know you better, you're the publisher for hospitality daily. You got a website and newsletter. So what inspired you to kind of in that area to go from, you know, working at a small hotel to, you know, becoming, you know, a thought leadership and hospitality, what kind of drove you to, to that, 

Josiah Mackenzie: hospitality is fundamentally a, a people business. And so I think it is very. Conducive to conversations like these, where we get to know, from each other, what's working, what we see that's been successful. And, I think we are in a really exciting moment in digital media where, people are more empowered than ever before.

And people with interesting stories, can share them with more people than ever before. And I think that's good for the industry at large. I don't really see myself as a thought leader. I see myself as someone who, is really focused on, helping people with interesting stories, tell those stories.

That's what I love doing. and have a lot of fun doing. And so I, again, I would say kind of my mission here is to, help them tell their stories, but also, develop these best practice guides, that are kind of driven by the people in the industry who have done it. And they learned by doing and so, yeah, I think that's really my, my fascination with digital media today.

I think we're at a, very interesting moment in time and, it's fun to be part of it.

David Millili: And we love that. I mean, we, you know, when Steve and I, started the podcast, I mean, our, goal really is to get people who are on LinkedIn, get to know the people that are really posting and active, because a lot of times, you see a post and you're wondering why does that person have that opinion?

And you, you don't know them. And we can only network and meet so many people and talk to so many people at, ITB or world travel Mart or high tech. So, it's good to hear that.

Josiah Mackenzie: It's fun going to those shows. I think after meeting many people, you know, through a LinkedIn or, or Twitter, and it almost feels like, a family reunion in a way. So for me, social media and, and you know, some of these digital communications almost heighten the experience in person, and that's really fun to participate in.

Steve Carran: Absolutely. Absolutely. So you've grown, you know, just from working at a, at a hotel and now you're kind of, you know, became VP and went through companies like duet overview pro and, proved to yourself in the industry. Have you had a mentor going through all this or have you even now, currently, are you mentoring people, has that played a role in your.

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, I've, been very fortunate to work with some incredible people. I think RJ Freelander at, review pro I've, learned so much from, at Juniper square. Matt Lawson was, CMO there and I worked for him. And, I think so in, in these technology companies, I've been fortunate to work for and, and, learn from some, very, very talented people.

A mentorship plays such a, a big role. I think whether you're working at a technology company or in a hospitality business, these are. Industries that you, you kinda learn by doing right. And, especially for, someone who's younger and kind of starting out, there's a tremendous advantage to, kind of figuring out who's doing interesting things and I've always approached mentorship.

I think. Primarily from that place of, how can I help you do something that you're already doing and less of, you know, can I, can I get, you know, an hour a week to pick your brain? And I think, with RJ or Matt or others, you know, those, I, I a little bit kind of fell into, but with others, that I've gotten to know throughout my, career in, in hospitality and, people like Adele Gutman come to mind.

I know she's been a guest on, the pod before, and I've worked with her for a number of years. And, we don't have formal mentoring relationship, but I just learned so much from her in every conversation. And I think just the way that she lives and operates and ran her business and runs her business today, sets a, a gold standard of what excellence looks like.

And so I think my view of mentorship is, a little bit, of a hybrid one in that sense of it's Contributing to people doing interesting things. And then also, you know, kind of figuring out, how can I learn from folks that are just the best in the business, but it's massively important.

I think from a career perspective and from the perspective of trying to, help the people that, you're working to help.

Steve Carran: Absolutely. I love that. I love that. And Adele's just, Adele's like personality is so bright and like positive. Like she would be such a great person to learn under because I feel like you're just gonna have such a positive experience no matter what you're learning from her.

Josiah Mackenzie: Absolutely. 

Steve Carran: So now this is the part I'm most excited for. We're gonna talk a little bit more about industry thoughts and, you know, kind of things you're seeing. the first thing I wanted to ask you was, you know, if somebody is thinking about getting into hospitality, is now a good time to join the industry.

Josiah Mackenzie: There's never been a better time. I think we're at a, you know, as we're recording this, heading into the fall of, of 2022 there's a lot of, uncertainty in the world in general. I think everything from politically to, the war in Ukraine to, the economy just nobody knows what's going to happen.

Right. there's a lot of uncertainty. I think it's, a great time for many reasons, I think on a,Very pragmatic economic level. there's a strong case to be made for this to be the most interesting sector to be in with so much pent up demand to travel. If you're an investor, hotels are an amazing hedge against inflation and there's so many opportunities to create value.

it's just a really interesting place to be from that perspective. And if you're working at a hotel brand or developing a hotel, there's so much potential here. if you're outside the industry and thinking of entering it, what really fascinates me about hospitality is the opportunities that could be unlocked by design thinking by the use of technology, by just being an excellent leader and an excellent operator, that there are many in the industry today, but there's also so much more room for innovation.

Josiah Mackenzie: I think, various. Analyst firms have kind of looked at the adoption of technology in hospitality relative to other technology. And hospitality has historically been a laggard that is not true for every company, but broadly speaking. there are many firms for many reasons that, have not adopted technology to the level they could.

And so that is a sort of a, wide open market in, many respects, on a personal level. Sometimes what people overlook is the range of skills that can be transferred to hospitality. And so I think sometimes people think, oh, if I, don't wanna work the front desk, then I'm not a good fit for hospitality, but I'm seeing really interesting, talented people from, you know, the worlds of real estate from finance to, technology, to people, leadership to, all these different skills that actually, have so much room to grow in, in hospitality. So, the range of skills that you can bring to the table are, are quite wide. I think the macro environment makes hospitality more interesting, than ever before. And, you know, the last couple years have been brutal for hospitality, but, I think there's many people I've spoken with that have, emerged from that in many respects, in, in a better way.

They're, more focused they're coming out of this with, kind of, new, um, focuses around, everything from design to providing a better guest experience to thinking about, you know, what do they stand for as an organization? What kind of people do they want to attract? And so it's almost the rebirth of, hospitality in many ways.

And I think a really interesting time to be a participant in that rebirth 

Steve Carran: Absolutely. What advice would you have for somebody who's just getting started in hospitality, whether they're, you know, at a hotel level or, you know, getting involved somewhere somewhere else.

Josiah Mackenzie: Learn from the best. So listen to the, The Modern Hotelier podcast, you know, you can, it's, it's a, it's a, it's an easy win. Um,yeah, depending on kind of where you are at your career, Immerse yourself in the world with people that you admire. Right. So there's a lot of great brands out there.

You know, if you're more on the real estate investment side, there's a lot of good firms that have a differentiated approach there. many entry points to the industry, but, I'm a big believer in learning by doing. and so I think, you know, put yourself in a position where you can learn, kinda optimize for that.

but also realize there's gonna be constraints in anywhere that you're working. So you almost need to have ways to reach outside, the boundaries of your, company and listen to podcasts like this one, you know, read stories of people who are, innovating in this space.

Josiah Mackenzie: and then think about what are the ways that you can apply some of those learnings to your own business. and that's where you, create value for people around you. That's where you get recognized. That's how you get promoted. That's where you do good things, for the people that you work with.

David Millili: you look at the operations of a hotel, all the different departments, whether it be sales and marketing, front desk, revenue management, you know, I've got some close friends, like Anthony uria really feels like housekeeping is the heart of the hotel. Is there an area that you think is the most important right now?

When you look at hotels,

Josiah Mackenzie: I wanna say operations, broadly and differentiate that from specific elements of, hospitality, such as design or, things like that obviously vitally important, have a successful hotel, right? You need a good location. You need good design. And so I'm not diminishing the nature of that, but I view operations as a holistic, sort of practice that includes everything from people, right?

How you recruit people, how you develop your people. How you inspire and lead those people, to the, the functional areas like, housekeeping, right? Because the details matter, right? The details matter, the processes that you use, again, it, depends on your brand positioning. And kind of what promise you're making guests when, when they stay at your hotel, but you know, more than a slick marketing campaign is that promise you're making and then how you follow through.

So I think that's where things like housekeeping play a role in that. But, having spent, you know, a lot of my career on hotel marketing, I think what I, found there is there there's limitations on, what you can just kind of market your way out of. Right. And fundamentally it comes down to the experience that you provide.

You know, that means clean rooms. It means, an experience where the expectations I have coming in here are met, but I'm also, providing surprise and, delight. and, the episode that you have with Adele, Gutman's a great one to like go back and listen to if, our listeners haven't heard that already, but it's all about that and exceeding those expectations.

And that's really what unlocks, loyalty and advocacy.

David Millili: you know, for me being in XGM, it's very frustrating because I travel a lot and the lack of the, quality of operations, whether it be cleanliness of the rooms or front desk staff, not really, kind of feeling like they wanna get to their phone, and get you just out of the front desk versus, welcoming you in, in the right manner.

Other than just asking if you're checking in. I definitely agree. Cause I'd much rather be at a hotel that was operationally sound than beautiful and, nice and well designed. I'd rather, you know, sacrifice that for just, quality of the operations.

Steve Carran: Absolutely. And I was gonna say, it seems like operations helps all the other areas of the hotel as well. So it's helping, you know, marketing, it's helping housekeeping. is that accurate?

Josiah Mackenzie: from the people I've spoken to. Yes. And I think this is where things really started to click for me is, during my time at review pro I work a lot with directors of operations, VPs of operations. it was really fascinating to me is where they were able to lead initiatives that got traction cross-functionally was making the relationship between great operations and providing a great guest experience to revenue performance and to demand and the benefits.

It would provide marketing hearing people like Adele Goodman who had responsibility for revenue, sales and marketing. And she was over here focused on operational quality, cuz she knew if I crushed it here, I could charge more. Right. My guests are doing the marketing for me. Sales becomes much easier.

And so I think any sort of innovation or change requires a certain level of cross functional alignment. and so I think fantastic operators, even if you're working in revenue, even if you're working in marketing are thinking about how do we do right by the guests? How do we do right by. Our staff, right.

And that's gonna drive business performance, but operations as defined as kind of a holistic view of running your business very effectively, is gonna deliver results.

Steve Carran: And now with more technology coming into hotels and hotels, adapting more technology, do you think that's gonna change operations?

Josiah Mackenzie: It already has. it fundamentally has in, in what's important to remember is our guests expectations for technology are, are actually not set by us at all right. It's set by the door dashes. It's set by the Ubers. It's set by all these consumer apps. And that's what defines my expectations for immediacy, for service, things like Um, the best people. Using technology and hospitality. In my view, though, aren't necessarily trying to become the Uber or the DoorDash of hospitality. They're thinking what is behind the promise of those apps and how do I deliver something? is a good fit for my brand. My offering, I was talking to a Hotelier in Texas that, was just noticing that his guests were using DoorDash and Uber eats all the time.

He was also noticing that he had extra. bandwidth in the kitchen. And so is developing, kind of a private labeled, almost like a cloud kitchen where guests can not get a pizza in 40 minutes, but more like 15 minutes and it comes fresh cause it's created downstairs. and so it's the observation that people want, they wanna be in control of that buying process.

They want something that's fresh and, it meets their needs. Right. But they're not necessarily wanting an integration with Thor dash. and so I think that's, where you have to put your thinking hat on. You have to kind of like observe your guests. You have to think about what is the brand promise and how do I deliver on that.

But the things that I'm most interested in are not necessarily becoming kind of an automated pod hotel, but it's thinking about how do I differentiate, with regards to providing service and providing. May be a very human experience, but using technology to, take care of things in, in the background.

And so I think that's where, you know, I've had conversations with friends about, you know, what is the implications of, the metaverse for hospitality. And I keep coming back to, you know, this is hospitality and the experiences that we provide in real life, in my view only become more important with time because some of these technological trends are inevitable and we're many of us spend much of our days on zoom or, you know, video conferencing.

anyway, so this is gonna happen, but happens in a world where we're on devices? So often maybe we need something that is the opposite of that. and so I think that's really interesting to think around where opportunities may.

there was a term I heard called, uh, fi, which is like incorporating the technology into that physical experience. So you're not losing that human touch, but you're also still using technology to incorporate into that experience as well. So kind of exactly what you're talking about right there.

another question about technology here, kind of going down that road a little bit more, benchmark research partners, recently came out with the 20, 22 hotel technology survey. you guys surveyed more than a hundred Hotelier across a wide range of, roles and company types. Was there anything that you found after, after seeing these surveys that really shocked you

Josiah Mackenzie: One thing that stood out is. Technology is not a cure in every case, right? So that may or may not shock you, but it's not as simple as I just sign a contract. I buy some technology and my problems are solved, there's much more nuance there. I think if I looked at the data, what we were finding is that there's actually a very wide range in the vast majority of hotels had, experienced, failed technology implementations, which is terrible on many levels because you're losing momentum internally.

People say, Hey, we tried technology. It didn't work for us. And it becomes really hard to innovate in the future, in that environment, but times lost, money's lost. and we really dug deeper to understand why is this, again, may not be surprising, but there's actually quite a range in terms of the effectiveness of the offerings of various providers out there.

Right? So there's a fair amount of providers saying, Hey, we offer this amazing solution. Turns out people implemented, it just doesn't deliver what they were promised. but you have some providers that, do deliver. Right. And so obviously it becomes the question of, how do you figure that out?

And, in interviewing a lot of people for that report, it's a lot of due diligence, right? It's, it's really talking with their teams deeply. It's a moving away from the standard RFP. Like here's our 300, question checklist of, do you check all the boxes to really getting to know. The, the architecture really understanding the philosophy behind product development.

and the number one thing is thinking about support. So this is something that people often overlook, they look into kind of say, oh, what's your, uh, do you have somebody I can, call, look beyond that. Right? So the, best performing firms are working closely with, their technology partners to think about, training teams on, on kind of every level, right?

Josiah Mackenzie: So they have, people who come on site to do training. They have virtual trainings, they have kind of a, systematized approach rolling out that technology that's been proven before. the technology partners are bringing best practices from other clients they work with. and they're co-creating solutions with hotels, right?

So kind of changing the script from, technology partners or just a vendor, or, you know, I can just kind of throw a dart and any of them are going to work into really understanding, okay. who's actually delivering results and then how are they going to deliver results with and for us. Right.

And so, I would challenge everyone to, take that diligent approach to technology. It, can be a really big unlock of, value and, create some really cool things for your teammates and for your guests, but can also waste a lot of time if you do it wrong. So make sure that you kind of dig into, um, what people are offering there.

Steve Carran: Yes. kind of to your point, you mentioned two things that I wanna comment on is failed implementation and bad support. I'm in the PMs world, obviously, and I hear so many horror stories from hotels that picked up maybe up and coming PMs, or maybe some, you know, a newer one and the implementa or not even a newer one.

I just talked to somebody who had a very well known PMs that didn't go well, but they failed the implementation and it's almost like they have PTSD. like, oh my goodness, we wasted so much time. We wasted so much money and not only our time, but our employees time training them.

it scars them but now they're hyper focused on finding that right solution. They're gonna, you know, find out referrals and things like that. So I love what you're saying before. And then as far as support too, like, it's always like, you know, tell us about your implementation and then what's your support.

Like, you know, because that's such an issue because when things go down at 2:00 AM, you know, you need to have somebody to call slack, email, you know, get a hold of. Right. So 

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. 

Steve Carran: that. You said that

Josiah Mackenzie: And you both have extensive experience in, in hospitality technology. but I think for people who are a little bit newer to that world, I think a macro trend that has been really encouraging is kind of the whole move to SAS or software as a service because the incentives of the business are aligned in you succeeding, cuz you can always cut your contract.

Right? And, and so there's this whole world of customer success where smart technology companies invest very heavily in the success of you as a client. and so, you need support to take care of the login issues and the, you know, where's the button for this, but you need a strategic partner and that can help you succeed.

good to kind of find a company that's aligned beyond just like, Hey, this is a nice thing to have to actually the financial success of our business relies on you being successful. which is the case for many and, I think a really good trend that's happening.

Steve Carran: And what you're talking about there, I think it directly correlates to one of your questions. And to me it was the most, I guess this one really stood out to me. It was, technology isn't exceeding expectations. And it was like, I think almost 60% it's technology. That's what I expected from it. Uh,almost 40% was that was less than I expected.

5% technology exceeded their expectations. So like kind of exactly what you're talking about right there, like technology and those partners just aren't exceeding expectations and almost delivering, I guess what they're supposed to, but not going above and beyond,

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. And I think there's kind of lessons there, both for providers and for Hotelier, I think on the provider, side, sometimes I hear folks talk about how revolutionizing and game changing, a solution will be and are selling a vision like we're living in 2050, and there could be a disconnect there where people are, hold on.

I'm not trying to be in 2050. I I'm trying to do my job now more effectively. And so, there, there's kind of a sense of like, how do we solve real problems, for people. And then in talking to Hotelier among that 5%, a lot of them keep coming back to that partnership. They have, who are the partners that have that deep expertise or at least listen really, really well.

and so I think there's there's opportunity there on, on both.

Steve Carran: Yeah. And you brought up listening, like another point was like 50% of Hotelier. Don't think technology companies understand their true needs, that was crazy. So it's like, it sounds like technology companies need to sit down and listen to Hotelier on what truly their needs are. maybe before moving into 2050, right.

Josiah Mackenzie: Totally. And I've seen some companies that actually hire people who used to work, at hotels and in the hospitality business. And there's, actually a lot of benefits there because sometimes people spend a couple years working at a technology company, then they'll go back to a hotel and they have that experience of building systems at scale.

it also gives, you know, technology companies that hire, people who use to work at hotels, just that familiarity with the business, having worked there. So, I think that's something that's cool to see too.

Steve Carran: absolutely. And you know, another point to that is Hotelier are excited about technology. They want to learn, 85%, wanna learn more about technology. So it's not like that. They're not willing to learn. They want to learn. We just need to educate them a little bit better as, on my side, as a technology company in the hospitality space.

So I thought this report was awesome. If you haven't checked it out, go download it. It's a 20, 22 hotel technology report by benchmark. So this was awesome. 

David Millili: I think Hotelier have to stop this kind of, you know, race to the bottom as far as pricing, because it seems like over the years being someone, you know, an X Hotelier then selling into hotels, they always want it cheaper.

And they don't realize as they continue to knock down these fees companies end up inevitably be just not supporting and getting the sport they want. So I think, Hotelier also have to kind of realize that it's important to pay for good service when you get these vendors to support you, rather than just pick the cheapest and hope they're gonna do a, a great job because, we've said this several times on the show, it's just very funny because as I talked to.

The operations people, the ownership groups, the management companies, our industry still has this delusion that, you use your phone to call an, get an Uber, use your phone to check in to the airline. And then they're like, well, no, no, our guests don't wanna use an app or they don't, they don't wanna be on their phone texting us.

talk to one texting company, which I won't release and the name, but they were saying, oh, we don't have any automated AI responses in our platform. Cuz we want to have a personalized approach. And it's like, well, how personalized is the wifi password is the following or checkout is the follow

You know? So it's, pretty interesting.

And so, you know, I've traveled this summer for business feels like, you know, knock on wood. We're, kind of over, the devastating portion of COVID. we've got labor challenges, but what else, you know, outside of labor, Coming, you know, kind of post COVID.

What do you, what other challenges you think are the biggest challenges that hotels are facing right now?

Josiah Mackenzie: I think part of it is what we talked about earlier. Some of the narrative around opportunities in hospitality, because there are implications on every level of the industry for that. I think it touches on labor on every level, right from frontline staff feeling like there's not opportunities to grow my career or just the day to day work environment might not be great or more senior people maybe who may otherwise be great.

in the corporate office of a brand or a management company, think there's not much potential for working in the industry. And I, It's a false notion that there isn't opportunity in this industry. I think this is the industry that is the most exciting because of the factors that we've talked about.

it has implications for investors and how capital moves around the industry. and I think there's more awareness now, as, as you kind of see hotel reads, outperforming, others, you see, investors putting up incredible returns for investing in hospitality. That matters because to your point, David, around investments into technology, if there isn't money in the pool here, you know, it's gonna be a small pie to, cut and create some innovation.

Josiah Mackenzie: But you know, right now we're in environment where there's more demand than ever hotels are able to have higher pricing power than they have in a long time. and. This is an opportunity to invest in the business, invest in the future, invest in your teams, such that you'll have a durable brand and something that pays off, for years to come.

and it seems that there are companies and, and brands that are doing this that are doing quite well today. And I think are gonna do quite well for a very long time.

Steve Carran: what's some of the best ways. And we talked about investing in technology. What is some of the best ways that hotels can, can utilize technology to not only create a better guest experience, but also know, bring more revenue to their property as well?

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. I, I think it, it, it's very connected, and includes everything from, some sort of pricing software that, gives you a sense of, demand and allows you to maximize revenues, based on that. But there's also opportunities on,upselling, on. everything from kind of the pre-arrival to the while you're on a property experience.

And so, without kind of getting into super specifics around that, having as a guiding function, how do you remove friction, but provide better experiences for the guest. And there's a way to do that, that you actually give them more options. make them feel like they're in, more control, and they can sort of customize their experience and you make more money as, an operator, as a, someone, you know, that that's with a hotel.

and so depends on, you know, the brand, the promise you're making the experience you're looking to provide. but it still seems, even though hotels have gotten better at this, there still seems to be so much opportunity there.

David Millili: what do you think, or do you know or have. Is there a trend that's been happening. That's gonna stay something that's new that hotels, or either technology or something hotels are doing on property that you think is new and that's gonna be here for the future.

Josiah Mackenzie: I'm gonna go a little, off the wall on this one. And I think as much as I love technology from a perspective of, enabling aspects of the guest journey, I think there is going to be in the years and, and decades ahead, an increasing desire to have in person kind of real experiences and the sort of human aspect of hospitality will become more and more important.

there are some hotels, you know, that are in remote places that actually has have as an amenity. No, no. Um, devices are no connectivity and that obviously is not applicable across the board, but I think the broad trend, while I love technology in general, I think. Just moving to a completely, automated hospitality experience driven by robotics, is not going to be valuable over the long term.

Josiah Mackenzie: There'll be a place for it. But I think people aren't talking enough about the human element of hospitality and how that will become important, even as technology becomes more important. and pervasive

David Millili: I have a friend Lauren who has a, a company called wonder, like me, and I think, you know, what I like about her approach and what she's trying to do is, you know, it's more about the local experience than just the hotel. So I think to your point about the technology and the human part, I think one of the things sometimes hotels forget is, there's actually a world out there outside of their hotel and how do they help their guest.

Navigate that. And some of my best experiences have been when I've been abroad and I've had a client who's just kind of showed me Madrid or showed me Berlin, like you said. And that was just incredible. That was much more valuable than, some of the hotel interaction. Not that it's not important, but I just think that's a, also a missing piece.

Josiah Mackenzie: You know, I was talking to Andrew Benioff, who I know is a, has been a guest on the show. And, um, he had something that really caught my attention. He calls it kind of flow hospitality, and he wants a two-way flow of people coming obviously onto his property from the community, but he wants his, his guest.

Go out into the community and he doesn't wanna just have this one way flow of people to his property. He kind of sees it as a missed opportunity if people don't get out there, explore the surroundings. And so he, thinks a lot and talks about, and is developing properties that are very much focused on nature.

and he loves the, you know, kind of ability to get out of the city and hear the birds and, feel the sunshine and, and really connect with nature. I feel like there's so much opportunity there.

Steve Carran: I love that there's actually a hotel in Colorado Springs that they marketed their bar and kind of lo cafe area to the locals as a hangout spot. So the locals will get to meet the guests and it's a very outdoorsy hotel, but they can kind of help the guests on what type of experiences and what type of outdoor experiences specifically to go on to create that hyper local experience.

So I love that. Andrew's such a smart guy anyways. He knows what he's doing.

so kind of completely opposite of the in person experiences. how do you think the metaverse is gonna affect hospitality?

Josiah Mackenzie: I think there will be applications for training, that are promising. so think about like a, like a flight simulator, right? But for dealing with so many different interactions training, that could be very difficult, you could do at scale and make it very realistic. as, as you might tell, I am very, uh, I think it is both inevitable and will be good.

It'll be better than the current video conferencing options we have today. It's funny because many people who are very much opposed to the metaverse spend 10 hours a day in zoom, and it is hard to tell me that that is a better experience than a more immersive one when done well, this, these are very early innings, so it is inevitable and I think we'll be good.

I would prefer that experience over zoom, but, Trying to force a hospitality experience into the metaverse is, not only a waste of time, it's stupid and, um, misses the whole point of hospitality. Right. And I don't see enough people in hospitality talking about this. I either hear, we haven't thought about it or it's amazing.

And nobody, it seems looks at the potential. It does have and realize what it will never be able to provide.

Steve Carran: Yes. Great answer. So now we're gonna try something new and I'm excited about this. You, you posted on LinkedIn that you were coming on and we actually had a few people comment, about some things that they wanted to pick your brain about. So, the first one, Adam is curious what you're seeing, with the intersection of vacation rentals and hospitality, specifically the larger real estate categories, intersecting lessons from luxury and lifestyle hotels.

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. So, um, I think, I'm thinking back to the skip lodging form that took place earlier this year. And I forget who said it as something to the effect of, vacation rentals, sort of being the laboratory of, hospitality. And so there's ways to try out hospitality concepts that could be introduced on some level on a broader level.

And so that's really interesting to watch. I mentioned Richard TIG, which Adam and I have both, you know, know and, um, is doing really interesting things on purpose built vacation rentals. And he also owns boutique hotels and, is kind of taking best practices from each. And there's a certain amount of cross pollination there.

and I think that's the right approach, right. I think just kind of viewing them as categorically bad. yes, there are. Downsides on, on, you know, many levels, but there's also a very real trend and a growing trend around an appetite for certain elements of what vacation rentals can offer, that potentially could be introduced in a hotel concept.

And there's also things that hotels can offer that vacation rentals never can. And so if you're a hotel own that think about the difference, think about the people that will want that full service experience and double down.

David Millili: So Eduardo would like to know in this environment with labor shortage is upselling worth it, since it puts more strain on the resources.

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah, it, really depends on how that upselling is done. I've seen some that use, certain technologies to, automate the upselling process and can actually reduce strain. So in some cases, you know, if you're, making your staff, an extra step to the check-in process, that could be, a little, uh, frustrating and maybe not as, as effective, but, there might be some creative ways to upsell in a way that makes the guest happier, makes you more money and actually takes some of the load off of your staff.

David Millili: So we are at the end. That was the last question we have for you. is there any question you think we should have asked you that we didn't ask you?

Josiah Mackenzie: I think you covered it all. I love this show. I, uh, it's been a lot of fun to, chat with you. And, um, I appreciate the chance.

David Millili: No problem. So this is where we let you plug away. We've already highlighted some of the things that you're doing, but tell us, what you're up to now, recap some of the things we covered, where they can find you, where you want people to go and, and check out what you're working.

Josiah Mackenzie: Yeah. So the research that Steve mentioned, is available on hotel operations.com/research. Uh, I publish a, weekly newsletter every Sunday morning with all the best things that I've found. you can find that at hotel operations.com/newsletter, and I love LinkedIn. So find me on LinkedIn let's connect and would love to chat with.

David Millili: Great. Well, thank you so much. We appreciate it. That ends another episode of the, The Modern Hotelier presented by Stayflexi we, yeah, we , we're happy to have you and don't know why I messed up there, but hopefully it's at the end and, and, uh, whatever we'll put in the blooper reel. 

Josiah Mackenzie: Awesome. Thank you both. It's been so fun.

David Millili: Thank 

Steve Carran: Thanks for