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Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out, the podcast about building, running, and maintaining software

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and systems.

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Fork Around and Find Out.

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I am Justin Garrison, your host, and with me as always is Autumn Nash.

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How's it going, Autumn?

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Struggling.

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Like, have you been sick more lately?

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Because I'm like, I've never been sick this much in my entire life this year.

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Like, I've been so sick.

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Even working from home.

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It's the kids.

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It's the schools and the kids.

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It's just germ factories.

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I don't even go outside, Justin.

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Maybe that's the problem.

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Maybe some grass would help.

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Whose side are you on?

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On today's show, we have Eve.

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Eve's a senior platform engineer, and I think some people might know her better as help

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me exit VI on pretty much every social platform.

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Welcome to the show, Eve.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, I've been following you since the TikTok days.

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I haven't been on TikTok for a while, but when I found you on TikTok and then I found

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you again on Instagram, I think your skits are hilarious and topical for me, and I just

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love your insight.

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So I wanted to reach out and have you on the show.

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Well, I really appreciate it.

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Even everything down to the user manual.

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Also, your shirt is really loud, Red.

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Your shirt is really rad, too.

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Thanks.

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And I know you talk a bit about Kubernetes, you talk a bit about cloud, you talk a bit

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about platform and CI.

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Can you give us a little background on what you've done in the past, like kind of how

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you came into tech and what you're doing?

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Yeah.

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So how I came into tech, I had a whole career path before tech where I wanted to be a diplomat

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and that I decided not to do that.

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My formal education is in mathematics, so I moved back to the States from living abroad

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for several years and tried to look into what can I do with a math degree that isn't becoming

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an actuary or an accountant.

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And I saw a YouTube video that was using machine learning to estimate coffee prices in response

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to drought conditions in Brazil or something, and I was like, I want to do that.

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So I went like the data analysis, data science path, which got me more into data engineering

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at my first job, which was like a very small early startup.

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And then the person who had run our Kubernetes cluster and who had managed our deployments

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left and I stepped into that role and they were like, this is your job now.

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I started my TikTok.

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This is actually a fun fact is that from my TikTok, I got my next job in tech, which was

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at the New York Times.

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I was there for four and a half years, but it started with someone leaving a comment

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on one of my TikTok videos saying, I'm hiring DevOps engineers at the New York Times, add

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me on LinkedIn.

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And I was like, this is fake.

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Yeah.

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And it wasn't.

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Wow.

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And then I was, I was the, um, I worked on our like CI CD team.

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I was the technical lead and subject matter expert for CI.

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And then I was toward the end of my tenure, the engineering lead for application delivery

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over the company.

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And then I left.

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And for the last three months, I've been a senior platform engineer at like an AI health

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tech.

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Um, I guess like late stage startup, later stage.

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What made you want to start doing skits on like TikTok and Instagram?

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A desire for attention.

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And also just that there was a lot in tech that I found challenging that I have always

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had the desire to laugh at things that I find challenging or find humor in them.

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So taking sort of frustrating experiences or having to learn all of the things all at

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once all the time and turning that into a skit.

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And then people liked it.

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So I kept making them.

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That's the realest answer though.

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Like people will be like, like they'll come up with some like answer that you're like,

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that sounds nice.

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But you know what I mean?

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Like that was like a real answer.

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But also I don't think you know how much like, I think that really helps when you're in tech

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because things can be so frustrating.

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Right.

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And a lot of times we're like taught to like pretend like you know everything and like

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fake it before you make it and like pretend like you know all the things and it's impossible

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to know all the things.

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So like I think sometimes when you're having a really frustrating day like I was talking

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to a bunch of college students and I was like it's like mostly failure and then one good

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win and then failure and like a couple good wins you know and like when you see someone

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else who's like this process is horrible or like this is like being able to relate like

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sometimes like Justin will send me like an Instagram meme and I'm like you made my whole

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day because I was so frustrated in that moment you know and like you just feel so seen.

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So I think that's actually like I think those do a lot more for people than people think

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it does you know.

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Yeah.

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My role puts me very close to production all the time.

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And so I feel like my life is just living on the highs of fixing a really cool bug and

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then the lows of causing a production incident just over and over.

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So you have to find humor in it.

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A circle of life right there.

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How would you say I mean this is you're now like five or six years doing this from from

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probably a pile of yaml that is now your responsibility to being able to kind of guide

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companies and plan things out and have a little more influence.

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How has how has things changed for you in those areas from when you first started.

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What the heck is Kubernetes to now you know platform engineer like building and planning

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this stuff.

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Yeah.

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I think the the most recent sort of revelation that I had is that like really nothing is

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ever going to look like the textbook.

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I think for a long time I was like this is what CI CD should look like and we should

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all be doing get ups and we should all be doing trunk based development and we should

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all be making really frequent tiny changes that just get released to prod.

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And then when I joined this company one of the reasons they hired me was it was for my

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CI CD expertise and sort of like standardizing their pipeline deployment workflow.

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And I came in and I was like oh we're not we're not going to be able to get there without

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a bunch of steps in between.

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And sort of people talk about incremental change a lot in software development but just

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just acknowledging the incremental change of the platonic ideal of a Kubernetes cluster

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and no configuration drift and the the actual system that I think going back to not everyone

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can know everything.

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I think a lot of companies do ask application developers to also know a lot about infrastructure

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a lot about Kubernetes a lot about like their build test deploy pipelines.

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And I can't come in being like well why didn't you like architect this better because they

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architected it as best they could.

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And I'm also just architecting it as best I can.

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And I think now where I'm in a position where I'm making these decisions largely by myself

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like I'm writing design docs and taking feedback and talking to folks but I'm now the one sort

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of executing and moving and changing and I'm like man I hope this doesn't blow up in my

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face in some way down the line.

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I've been doing this long enough that I always expect it to blow up in my face or like that's

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that's kind of one of the I guess my mindset changes over 25 years of doing this was it's

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all about it's all a matter of how big it's going to blow up my face and at what timeline

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it's going to blow up in my face.

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Right.

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Like at some point I know it's going to sound bad though but I think that sometimes because

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you're a dude when it blows up in your face it's okay.

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Oh yeah.

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Like when you're a girl and it blows up in your face they're just like we knew you couldn't

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do it.

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You're just like dude like this is a normal hiccup.

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One hundred percent true that yes I have the benefit of the doubt but also I try to give

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other people that same leniency and benefit of the doubt.

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Which is important because I think you do like that's like what you the article you

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brought that a few months ago that said like the safety of your work environment and being

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able to like experiment and like fail you know like I think psychological safety is

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the is the key indicator of high performance teams.

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Yeah absolutely.

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And and having that psychological safety of like this is going to fail at some points

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and also it's always easy to like dump on what someone else did from the past and say

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like oh why didn't you just design it better.

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Right.

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It's like well like how things get design changes tools change people's knowledge changes

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over time like all of this stuff is growing and changing.

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And it's like sometimes I look at the Git commit and I'm like oh that was me.

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I think that was I did do that.

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Git blame gets real sometimes like but I think what Eve was saying something like I think

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the longer I've been in this industry when I am interviewing with a team and you're kind

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of interviewing them back or kind of just talking to people at conferences some of the

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stuff that you've just mentioned just how I know that I want to work with someone when

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they talk about how they you know like have done things wrong or how they've realized

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that you're coming into this new environment and you're trying to figure out why things

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are done this way and like how you're going to get it from point A to point B and you

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know it's not going to be easy because when somebody comes in and they're like it's going

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to be so easy we're going to rewrite everything I'm like okay you're one of those people like

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when people come in and they don't ask why something was built a certain way or they

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just think they're going to like get a wand and magically make something completely different

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and I'm just like you didn't ask enough questions to be confident in that idea you know what

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I mean so everything is easy that shows your expertise except and then you just end up

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missing that important context of why those decisions were made or how you're going to

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get from point A to point B and then just being like let's switch it over that yeah

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that's never going to go wrong totally even I were talking in the pre-show that like all

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the details right you're finding these obscure little bugs that are affecting you or your

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team in various ways that are buried in a github comments or or comment in a code or

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something like you have to find those things and know they exist it's like being a detective

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that's what cracks me up I was reading one of the books that your wife sent me and like

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I was thinking about like being an engineer is kind of just being a detective like there's

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so much context that you have to get and you have to know what context you need and how

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much to get into the weeds and how much not to and it's like I think that's the fun part

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for me but I was thinking that's how you know Eve's good at her job because she was like

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how do I get from this to that and we know that like once you start working with production

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and scale that you're like the textbook looks like a baby compared to what I just got thrown

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into like I remember when the first time I saw Jenkins pipeline that looks so like ridiculous

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that it was like the class that I was taking like just they were not the same beast you

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know and you're just like now you really have to figure it out so I think that's how you

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know that you're really good at your job because you like walked into it and you're like oh

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no I also talking about obscure bugs this was this was not an obscure bug this was in

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the documentation and just missed it is that with this new so I created a new sort of build

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once deploy many style of deployment where you just promote artifacts to wherever you

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want them in Argo Argo picks them up and I had a team come back to me and they were like

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well how do we do a hotfix and I was like oh you don't do a hotfix but I have to support

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hotfixes so I was like well you you check out like the last time the commit of the last

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production artifact that you built and then you make a PR on that and then you take that

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build and you you ship that and then I caused a production incident telling teams to do

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that because it turns out that when you use like the github shot in a in a github action

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on a PR it creates a merge commit with main and just merged whatever was in the tip of

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main with this PR you have to use like the PR headshot and I was like how was I supposed

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to know that and then it was like literally in the documentation for github action but

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see like but be real nobody reads all of the documentation you have to be able to scan

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it and know what you need and you might not have been looking for that thing you know

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what I mean but yeah I was I was going through it with a co-worker and and he was sort of

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like well they don't say that in the documentation then he was like and then he was like well

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they could have surfaced that better it's like thanks for supporting me that that's

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a good co-worker okay like you need someone that you can cry with you can that's your

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your double eyes to look over your PRs and documentation and be like me too bro you know

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what I really love about that is I bet the person who wrote that line in the docs also

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had the outage they're servicing it exactly where they think it should be because they

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already broke it and they're like no one else will ever do this again because I wrote

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it down and no it's not how it works it's funny because I feel like people keep saying

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like well we don't need to build documentation anymore because it gets outdated and I'm like

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like I feel like we've got like lost the art of documentation we just assume that like

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it'll be there or that like AI will write it later and I'm just like I think that we

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forget how important those things are like the amount of times I've heard that like with

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people building things in production just like like you you still need to write things

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down like I write things down for myself I will write the code and then forget about

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it later so I'm just like

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Eve I'm curious your opinion on the the current state of infrastructure deployment and sort

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of especially how it relates in Kubernetes is kind of this weird way of doing things

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but how do you feel the differences are between something that would be traditionally we call

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CI-CD something we call GitOps and something we call platform engineering where do you

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draw the line between those things and how do you use a definition based off of that

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face you're making like it just so man I think it's hard or harder to do kind of like platform

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engineering in a GitOps way where at least when I think of GitOps I'm thinking specifically

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of something like Argo CD like watching and reconciling with whatever the state in Git

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is and when I think about like Terraform I'm a lot less like you're not really watching

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something you're probably triggering triggering with a with a merge or with a promotion of

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some kind but I would say that oh this is a very hard question for me

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I'm really curious you're in the trenches doing it and like I I come at it mostly from a like an

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academic definition side of things where like the the open GitOps has a open I think it's like

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open GitOps dot dev or whatever like they have a definition of like what is GitOps of how it was

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defined how we've works and Alexis like defined it back in the day when they coined the term and

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it was different than CSEs and DevOps what was that what's the difference between GitOps and

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DevOps I actually gave gave a keynote several years ago at GitOps con that was called the

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difference between DevOps and GitOps is writing it down but it was a play on Mythbusters the

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difference between like science and screwing around is writing it is write it down yeah

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absolutely absolutely I came to ask this question yeah it was just us taking Mythbusters

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gifts and and putting like text behind them and being like use the main branch

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because it relates something like no I just think those are the best talks because it

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relates something interesting to like what you're trying to teach so going back to the

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question I would say that like platform engineering is the foundational build like

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building blocks that then allows app developers to do CICD because I think CICD relies on

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infrastructure being as close as possible to each other across environments so you do want

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something that reconciles like like Terraform that watches state so that if I go in and I

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create you know a new ECR repo or I change some settings on on something I don't know I can't

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think of examples off the top of my head but I go in I change an auto scaling group in AWS

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that that gets overwritten so I'm not expecting that in staging just because I've like manually

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changed it in dev and then the next time I sort of say like Terraform make everything nice again

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and make it as close as possible to all of these environments so then I can have a more

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predictable application deployment experience I think that really used to bite people when

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there have been a bunch of manual changes that weren't documented anywhere or that were a part

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of like testing or debugging and then forgotten about and not updated that that make it like

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really hard to do application deployment well and I guess like infrastructure can also I think

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reach into like monitoring but I think of it mostly as as sort of like the the building blocks

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of getting you know Argo set up Argo like app of apps or project to projects and and that sort

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of configuration your Terraform your basics there that you can then sort of CICD application code

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on top of that's really interesting your distinction here which if I'm understanding

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what you're saying correctly like the platform engineering piece is like what the developers

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the application developers are interfacing with behind that is usually something like an Argo

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which has a as a closer reconciliation loop to what they're doing right it's closer to

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the applications it's doing the application deployment but then the CICD the Terraform

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piece is underlying the foundation for the Argo and so it's like you have these layers of

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the further away from the developer you go the less frequently you have to change it necessarily

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and in the more I don't say stable but you don't necessarily need Terraform in a for loop right

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Terraform can be we only change this when we we update ECR we don't need this reconciled every

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minute right but the application and the Argo the application the the containers however you're

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defining that in Kubernetes that is hey the dev we don't waste the dev's time so we need to make

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that they also get that loop to get it faster and that is where web hooks and constant pulls

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come into play yeah I think I think platform engineering and platform has really really

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today I think when people think of platform engineering they think a lot of like an

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internal developer platform so like a developer comes to the platform team or a UI and they say

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I want to make a new app and the platform team is sort of like here you go and it's all like nice

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and packaged and it's like you don't have to worry about like setting up a namespace or setting up

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like you just have to worry about like your application code and then we'll integrate it

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with the cloud or with Kubernetes or set up all your Terraform hopefully it's documented too like

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that's always like every platform like one of the best things I did at one of my previous jobs was I

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said okay here's an example applicant I wrote the app you deploy it on our stack and I gave everyone

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three days I was like you have to deploy it the entire thing and like we it was a platform team we

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had three groups and we said okay like I did the infrastructure we had a deployment team we had a

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monitoring a CI team and we're like everyone knows their piece really well but no one knew everyone

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else's and we didn't document it enough and so as I was like here's the app you figure out how to

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containerize it you deploy it and not a single person out of all 12 people managed to do it in

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and I was just like that's eye-opening because we assume our developers are figuring out and we

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don't even know how the whole thing goes together to deploy it in that amount of time and uh all

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back to documentation right like you should be writing those docs to give people like you can

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give them a package that says here this should be easy but everyone has something they need special

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or different or some configuration they don't know where it exists yeah I think an issue that I ran

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into at my new company is that there wasn't a really good way to do rollbacks and so a lot of

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teams were doing rollbacks of their like kubernetes replica sets via the argo ui but then because it's

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argo it would just redeploy whatever it was in git and it would be like haha and I'm like why is that

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even there in argo but so teams were then like turning off autosync but then they'd forget that

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they turned off autosync and they'd be like hey we made changes but those changes aren't showing up

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in argo and I'm just like oh man you really when you're working in a platform team when you're

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trying to focus on developer experience you have to make the correct thing the easiest thing to do

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I think that's really important that I I could write like a super complicated like cicd process

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for deployment and rollback that's like beautiful and that I could be like this is a textbook and

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I'm gonna take this to conferences and no one would use it they'd all be like we hate this

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we're doing the old thing we'd rather face the argo autosync issue so you just have to make it

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whatever it is it has to be easy to understand and easy to do or else developers aren't going

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to do it and I don't blame them for that I also try to do the easiest thing possible at all times

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how much do you think that comes down to just what's the default right like that like the

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default setting for a thing I always heard this the phrase the tyranny of the defaults right

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whatever is the default saying is is what is put on people whether good or bad and and if if the

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you know if the default is don't have sync no one's going to have sync right even if it's the

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best you know the best way you should use it yeah I think I think that's very true I think

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there are things that that I've I've seen like across my career that I I sort of come in and

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I'm like well if you want to do it this way like why are we using argo like if you don't care about

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syncing like let's just deploy to a kubernetes cluster and we can push new kubernetes manifests

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and like you're gonna have the same result except you're not gonna have like a little argo ui with

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with all of your objects but like why use argo or I've worked with teams who had like a canary

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rollout but there was no kind of like testing on that so they just had a rollout over like say

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three minutes and they were like well whenever we have to do a rollback or a roll forward then we

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have to go through this rollout again and it really slows us down and I was like why do you

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have this rollout like it's not it's not doing anything functionally worthwhile that you get

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with a canary where you're like testing some of the traffic and making sure there aren't issues

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and then like rolling back I'm like if it's just like three minutes to to have some gates on your

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replica set as it rolls out like kubernetes does that or like argo does that automatically with a

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new like it makes sure the new one can come up before it brings the old one down so why do you

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want canary and they're like oh well like canary is the the best practice the like fancy thing to

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do and I'm like yeah but you're not like it's not doing anything for you yeah sometimes I think

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why do we have this is definitely like a staff level question that's like like hey why is this

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why does this exist and no one answers it like yeah you just got a promotion right there I think

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that sometimes people get so in love with either the academic version of something or like the

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this is how we should do it the fancy way that they don't even ask the questions like that or

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just in general like sometimes people will make this really complicated version of how to solve

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something and you're like you could have done that with a cron job and some like glue yeah like

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I mean kubernetes in general right like that's that people people deploy kubernetes just because

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it was the guide right they read a guy in a blog post whatever and they're like oh this said do

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like it's a wordpress blog like just you can put that on a vm like it's okay sometimes I almost

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think that that's why I like I enjoyed platform and release engineering more than just software

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engineering because platform and release engineering is like how do we get this done

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and it needs to work and sometimes like working with just software engineering is like really

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theoretical and it just you go in circles for so long that I'm just like can we just build something

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that works yeah the the bridge between code and software is super fascinating of like when when

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someone wrote something and then it reaches a customer is is a very complicated mess and then

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sometimes software engineering can be so disconjoined from actual customers after being

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a solutions architect or a pm you know so it's like you just see how like sometimes these jobs

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and these titles make you so siloed and it's so different how you interact with code and the actual

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shipped product you know what do you like I guess what do you think now I mean you're obviously

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been more in infrastructure and you know you're very successful at that but how do you see like

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I guess the industry different from going from like more of like mathematics and data science

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to like infrastructure like is there anything that you weren't expecting or anything that you

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end up liking more now that you're working with more platform and not so much like data and numbers

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I don't think so I think what something from when when I got my mathematics degree is that I had to

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do some computer science courses and I absolutely hated them and I was like I never want to code

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ever I think because mathematics you have it's it's very clear how to get from point a to point

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b which is you have your axioms and your laws and your theorems and then you're like proofs and I

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think coding I went into a coding class and we were trying to like solve like trinomials or

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something and I was like I don't know where to start and my professor in office hours was just

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like just start somewhere and I was like I can't do that like what do you mean just start somewhere

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and I do feel like platform engineering has has more of that structure still that's like closer

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to mathematics than traditional like back-end development where you're just kind of like how

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am I going to do this and there are algorithms and data structures available but you just kind

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of like decide what you want and start going for it I do think that platform engineering has

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has a little more of that like lawful structure that I liked from mathematics but I'm not I'm

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not sure there's anything that has been surprising to me maybe I was I was studying for some like

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data data structure and algorithms questions like when I was interviewing for a new position

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and I did have a moment where I was like oh man algorithms are just math I was like I never

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thought of that before this is just graph theory um that might be the only the only sort of like

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wow moment of something that like probably should have been obvious to me but had a different name

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so I figured they weren't the same different domains different names different terms for the

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same sort of thing right like the implementation might be slightly different but yeah it is just

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it's just the same thing that you were already learning you write it down to tell the computer

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how to do it yeah and I learned math backwards yeah because I was like math seems scary I always

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thought math seemed scary until you like actually like I learned it backwards from learning computer

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like engineering concepts and then I was like this just like rules and structure it's funny you

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mentioned the computer science class too because it I was at university and the only class I ever

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dropped was a systems engineering class because I literally had no idea what they were talking

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about it was it was specifically Unix like they were teaching Unix in the early 2000s and I went

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for two weeks and I was like I haven't understood a single word this professor said like I have to

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drop this class and it was just so foreign to me because I at the time I didn't even have a computer

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like I had no no computer of my own I was never into programming I didn't know any of this stuff

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and I was like I don't know what they're saying and so I just have to get out of this class and

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maybe I'll learn it later but then coming at it from a different angle of a very practical

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standpoint of like I need to get my wi-fi drivers working on Linux and I have no internet access

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right now really back in the day like that was the only way I could get online no smartphone to look

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things up and I'm like I have to figure this out from man pages is a different type of systems

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engineering that was more practical and because I could start somewhere it made it much more

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approachable for me to say oh I know how to do this side of it yeah I I dropped my one in drop

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but I hate it my first computer science class because it was like web design and it was dream

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weaver and I absolutely hate it I think I took it's like when you get a math degree at some point

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if you're doing applied math I guess I guess not but my my degree was like much more theoretical

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and I remember I took it must have been number theory where we learned about like prime number

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encryption and I was just like when am I ever gonna need this and then I was like oh awesome

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are there any things that you see people do that are considered best practices that you're like

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that's just dumb like don't do like you mentioned promoting artifacts like from one environment to

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another and I've always known that as a like oh yeah don't don't you don't have to rebuild because

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the artifacts the same you should change the shah in your manifest or something like promote it that

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way or retag it and I've always kind of felt like that was a weird anti-pattern where it's like no

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I'm going to rebuild because I'm going to go to a different repo like I'm going to put a different

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ECR or something I don't want production pulling directly from the dev environments container

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registry because I'm going to break something there so I have to separate these things anyway

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so I'm not promoting the artifact I'm actually rebuilding in a new environment and I hope that

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it's reproducible but in many cases containers aren't reproducible right like you're going to

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get a different update for some library or something so it's like it's not the same thing

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ideally it would be but I often see that it's more work to try to do real artifact promotion

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than it is to just like we're just gonna let ci go in hope and pray that this is close enough

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when we roll it out yeah I think I think it's really common to build at each environment and

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I think one of the reasons that the build one deploy many best practice is a best practice is

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one you're deploying the exact same thing that you tested so you tested it on dev you put it on

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staging it's the same thing you test it on staging you put it on prod it's the same thing so you're

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not getting you know the causing like flipping zeros and ones somewhere every 10th artifact or

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something so it's very slightly different but I think also it saves time one of the things that

401
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I hear the most from teams is that they're like ci pipelines are too slow and they're like it takes

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way too long to like run all our tests and I'm like well on the one hand like I have literally

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worked with a team who like part of their ci tests was they like opened an sftp server and like

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transferred like all these files in sftp and I'm like yeah and they're like no we're gonna leave

405
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that in and I'm like okay but I do think that builds take a really long time and I think um

406
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I've recently run into this where I had never really spent too much time looking closely at how

407
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teams write their docker files but I think um what I have found since I started doing that

408
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is that many docker files are basically like one layer and so and then they're like well maybe we

409
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can cache so it will be faster and I'm like it's not gonna cache anything if it's one layer

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the whole like the cache takes the layers that aren't changed and then all the layers that you

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build on top of that like it rebuilds those that's the point and so caching isn't gonna

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change anything but so I think the the two it's it's more standard to build and write your code

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in a way where you're not like hard coding any environment configuration into the container into

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the built like artifact so it can go through but I would say mostly for consistency and then

415
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secondly for time it can be more complex to to sort of get it either move the image from your

416
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dev ecr to your stage ecr to your prod ecr or have like a central ecr that all environments

417
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can reach out to and grab I don't have a strong opinion about re-tagging I know some people

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who focus um a lot of my colleagues who I've worked with who were like sre specialists are

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like oh we hate re-tagging because then it like messes up the metrics and the like

420
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tracing I don't really care personally I'm not an sre once

421
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,720
go somewhere else for your uptime but I think for me it's it's mostly the consistency and the

422
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:16,460
time saved that now like that artifact is built and also I think if you're doing if you aren't

423
00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:25,100
doing really frequent deploys it is difficult to get back the state you would have to I guess like

424
00:32:25,780 --> 00:32:31,500
check out the commit that you wanted to promote and then rebuild from that rather than just like

425
00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:35,640
have that artifact built at the time that that commit was made and then it's just there

426
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,540
and so even if you're making tons of changes on main that's not blocking you from taking

427
00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:48,120
this artifact that was built in the past and moving it through to production which is another

428
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:55,380
another issue that I've seen frequently is teams you know they're like oh we're gonna do a release

429
00:32:55,380 --> 00:33:00,300
tonight no one merge anything so that our code base is where we want it to be and then someone

430
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:03,940
doesn't see slack and they merge something in and they're like oh god now we have to run all

431
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:08,420
the tests again now we have to like revert this like it's like so much more complicated than just

432
00:33:08,420 --> 00:33:13,440
like we built this artifact at this time and now it's just there forever or you forget a commit

433
00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:18,680
that you had to put a patch on top of something and you're like third all the way after a 12-hour

434
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,660
build yeah yeah that one cherry pick that you're like oh I don't think it's making it I'm not doing

435
00:33:24,660 --> 00:33:29,720
this again take the patch we need it no I remember this is why it used to take like three days to

436
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:35,280
build like you can't mess that up because like then you're like missing your sla for sure a lot

437
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:43,100
of my content and skits where I talk about ci I feel like I bring in like is your ci like opening

438
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:49,300
an ssh server and sftp in the entire internet and I just feel like I bring that back like over and

439
00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:54,540
over again because I just remember this one team that I was like why are you doing this which is

440
00:33:54,540 --> 00:34:00,740
only seconded by a team that would stand up an entire postgres server and like test all of their

441
00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:06,900
migration changes against this like ephemeral postgres server in ci and then break it all down

442
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:13,760
and they were like we need our builds to finish in under two minutes and I was like you need to

443
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:20,540
stop doing that they were like you can't stop doing that and I was like okay I feel like when

444
00:34:20,540 --> 00:34:24,780
you like like being a solutions architect is very much learning like the best practices you know

445
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:30,700
and then going from that to like being an engineer in production and I was like oh none of this is

446
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:36,600
they're like you can't do that or you'll break everything and you're like yeah I will give you

447
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,840
the diagram in the AWS blog posts that does not look like anything in reality oh my god like I

448
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,360
remember like I got on one team and they were a data team and they were like everything is like

449
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:53,980
never ever like test in production with like huge tables of data and they're like we're just

450
00:34:53,980 --> 00:34:58,700
gonna drop this table really quick and I'm like what do you mean or they're like we just made a

451
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:02,160
test and we just copied a whole redshift table over and I'm like do you know how much redshift

452
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:09,380
what do you mean like I've just like I've spent like the first six months of that job just horrified

453
00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:16,700
the whole time it's like you can do this I think I got to a point where again my job puts me very

454
00:35:16,700 --> 00:35:21,980
close to production and where I'm often like teams who are having issue with with CI or need

455
00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:26,020
to do a quick deployment or rollback like will often like pull me into incidents and there was

456
00:35:26,020 --> 00:35:32,780
a point when I was like so comfortable with working on production that I would just sort of like get

457
00:35:32,780 --> 00:35:37,140
on production and look around and one day my manager sent me a slack about some changes that

458
00:35:37,140 --> 00:35:41,640
I was making in dev like that I was doing the proper way and she was just like I just want to

459
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,500
make sure you're like are you doing this on production right now and I was like oh I need to

460
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:50,460
take a step back from how frequently I'm on production if people are actively like you're

461
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:57,840
doing this the right way right do you I feel like it's like the videos or skits that you make that

462
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,440
I'm imagining like I haven't seen all of them but like sometimes I feel like that's like like

463
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:09,120
engineer therapy like when someone else has the same like problem or they've seen something

464
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,880
absolutely ridiculous like after you have like a bad day or like you have like something go on

465
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,360
and then you see it and you're like oh my god someone else goes through the same problem

466
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:24,700
like it makes you feel so much better is that I completely agree and I feel like if you were

467
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:28,800
talking about the difference between DevOps and GitOps right like DevOps was all about making

468
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,200
that blameless right like DevOps is always about the culture it was always about the

469
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:38,200
people make mistakes but we're trying our best sort of thing and I honestly feel like GitOps is

470
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:43,600
not get out specifically but just the era of GitOps has moved us away from caring about the

471
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:50,480
people and the culture and more about just the tools and execution of things and and the even

472
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:56,960
myself as a very privileged white dude in tech me bringing down something in 2026 is a lot different

473
00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,520
than me bringing down something in 2014 and in just the the way that that's handled and unless

474
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,460
I blame it on AI is like the only only way I can escape out of this today of like oh well like I

475
00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:11,560
told Claude to do it and like whoops like it did something wrong like that's the only thing that I

476
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:19,020
think is like this is okay still is that is that a problem for juniors and people getting in the

477
00:37:19,020 --> 00:37:24,680
industry and people that are making their first production whoops like that is a rite of passage

478
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:30,500
passage for a lot of people and knowing that other people do it is reassuring that you can get better

479
00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:36,180
and you can still learn from it and you can still be involved in this community and and still

480
00:37:36,180 --> 00:37:43,620
provide value even if you've taken down production yeah I think it's it's something that more senior

481
00:37:43,620 --> 00:37:50,120
engineers need to do more explicitly now that like there are fewer or with GitOps I guess

482
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:55,240
ostensibly there are fewer production outages that are happening because you're like oops I went and

483
00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:00,080
changed this and didn't write down that I changed it I think a blameless culture is still really

484
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,680
important that's something that I screen for when I'm interviewing as I talk about you know like

485
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,720
how often are people causing incidents like what does the incident response look like what are your

486
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:16,520
retrospectives look like and I think it truly is just like an exposure therapy experience

487
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:24,540
of causing an issue and hopefully being in a job with mentors around who are like oh yeah I took

488
00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:31,560
down prod in the past too that's okay and not you know whenever I a skit that has something to do

489
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,600
with taking down prod or an outage that happened inevitably there are comments being like up someone

490
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:42,980
got fired today and and I think really the majority of of companies that's not the case unless like

491
00:38:42,980 --> 00:38:47,560
it's some like gross negligence thing or you purposely went in and you were like I'm gonna

492
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:53,260
delete our kubernetes production cluster then I think you might get fired but I think you know

493
00:38:53,260 --> 00:39:00,880
with GitOps it's it's much more there needs to be a greater sort of explicit effort in telling

494
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:07,300
juniors like hey it's okay this happens all the time and even I like I just caused this slight

495
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:13,140
incident related to the merge commits that were happening in CI that I wasn't expecting and I like

496
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,940
sent a colleague a message on slack and I was like this is my fault and he just sent me back

497
00:39:18,940 --> 00:39:25,480
like blameless with a smiley face and I was like yeah but it's my fault like it is and also I can

498
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:30,160
understand that like it's a human thing that happens and especially happens in software development

499
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,960
but I think it's really really important to keep to try to keep the culture of like the truly

500
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:41,680
blameless retrospective where where you're just yeah one of the things about like the DevOps era

501
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:49,500
of operations was that someone pushing the key that took down production often would turn around

502
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:54,960
to say actually we're all to blame because again the tyranny of the defaults the easy thing to do

503
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,720
should be the right thing but also this thing should be protected right like I should never

504
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:02,720
be a button that can take down production right like those sorts of things like I I've told the

505
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:06,540
story before when I when I took down Disney Animation because I told every server that we

506
00:40:06,540 --> 00:40:11,620
had to go update Google Chrome like that should be a thing that wasn't possible I did hit the key

507
00:40:11,620 --> 00:40:17,080
it was my fault but also it was at a time when we said actually like we should maybe put some

508
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,720
more safeguards around that like maybe we shouldn't have thousands of connections go out to Google at

509
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:25,820
once we should be able to block some of that or at least verify like are you really sure about this

510
00:40:25,820 --> 00:40:30,580
those are things that that have gone away and at least I don't see them anymore I don't see

511
00:40:30,580 --> 00:40:35,040
I don't see people publicly talking about it though like I think because if you think about

512
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:40,380
it like so I think you can't ignore the fact that we've all been through layoffs we've all been

513
00:40:40,380 --> 00:40:46,100
through you know like that like the job market's tight right so like there's so much more pressure

514
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:51,300
and then when you add on the fact that everybody is like every company is like use as much AI as

515
00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:56,480
you can and then use this and just you need to be as productive as possible and turn out like

516
00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:01,180
the deadlines are tighter people are working with much less there's no there hasn't been

517
00:41:01,180 --> 00:41:05,880
headcount in four years for anything you know what I mean so we're all learning to use AI

518
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:11,960
we're learning to do it with less and I think it's also like how long can that be sustainable

519
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,740
you know like when we were doing it in the first six months or the first year it was like okay

520
00:41:16,740 --> 00:41:21,520
hopefully it won't be this way forever but now we're like four years into like doing as much as

521
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:26,120
we can with no headcount and surviving you know what I mean on vibes and coffee or whatever so

522
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:32,600
like I think when you add all those different factors of like you're pushing teams to like the

523
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,380
brink you've also or you're incorporating AI you're changing these processes they're doing

524
00:41:37,380 --> 00:41:44,280
like you want them to be 10 times more productive and then there is like no blamelessness so like

525
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,600
you know what I mean like it just seems like we're just going to like compound the amount of mistakes

526
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:54,460
that could have been learned from but instead they're going to be either hidden or pushed like

527
00:41:54,460 --> 00:41:59,460
or not talked about or people are going to instead have to fear getting in trouble like we went back

528
00:41:59,460 --> 00:42:05,620
to like the safety for like like in the workplace you know what I mean like the mental safety like

529
00:42:05,620 --> 00:42:10,960
safe environment so I think like I think those things are not just not happening being blameless

530
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,780
but they're almost compounded and I think we're going to see what happens in the fallout from that

531
00:42:15,780 --> 00:42:21,700
every time the industry goes through a shift and people are relearning and retooling there's always

532
00:42:22,580 --> 00:42:27,080
learning pains outages things that we make assumptions about how they worked before this

533
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,920
happened when we started moving to automation for for you know config management it happened

534
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:38,080
when we're starting to move to cloud moving to containerization AI is not different AI is going

535
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:42,400
to be the exact same thing I think but I think it's different though because before we've invested

536
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,940
billions of dollars into saying that this fixes all your problems it does it for you and we can

537
00:42:46,940 --> 00:42:52,500
get rid of humans right so this product people are more interested in this product being perfect

538
00:42:52,980 --> 00:42:58,180
than we are into like giving developers grace because right now developers are expendable

539
00:42:58,180 --> 00:43:02,720
right so they're already like we don't need you we can fire you and use this thing for you

540
00:43:02,720 --> 00:43:07,340
so I think like when we went into it with automation or kubernetes or whatever the like

541
00:43:07,340 --> 00:43:12,200
CICD it was like hey we're going to try this new thing and it might not work or we might go

542
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,960
through some bumps but like we were understood where we were right this new thing we people are

543
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:21,240
more interested in it being perfect and it's solving the world's problems than admitting it's

544
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:26,740
a tool whether you like the tool love the tool hate the tool it's a tool right and it's good

545
00:43:26,740 --> 00:43:32,860
and using at this scale for this like increased productivity if it was 100 percent perfect it

546
00:43:32,860 --> 00:43:37,880
would be like a learning curve right so the fact that we're like taking it and like you have to

547
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,620
admit like at this point it doesn't matter what company it is they are more interested in you

548
00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:48,260
using it and pretending like it's going to solve all the problems than the actual like grace and

549
00:43:48,260 --> 00:43:52,660
like how we're going to figure this out and how do we recommend it being using which is one thing I

550
00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:59,720
their paper on how to use and how they're going to incorporate it into their work and how they're

551
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:04,980
going to help their developers use it top tier I think oxide is going to continue to push the

552
00:44:04,980 --> 00:44:08,840
industry in the right direction and that's why their company is so successful because like

553
00:44:09,460 --> 00:44:15,420
that seems like just a intelligent logical thing to do and I think people are too busy just

554
00:44:15,420 --> 00:44:20,200
ignoring the fact that we have to learn how to work with AI and change like the way that we're

555
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,620
being productive and kind of come up with a new process and just saying it's magic box and it's

556
00:44:25,620 --> 00:44:30,060
like this elephant in the room that I think we could grow so much by just figuring out like hey

557
00:44:30,060 --> 00:44:35,200
how do we use this in production how do we like actually teach people how to use it but nobody's

558
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,660
talking about it it's like the elephant in the room just use it and shut up and it's your fault

559
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:43,140
if it breaks yeah and I can really agree with you like I was the the shift has been the same where

560
00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:49,920
people are involved but the pressure of it today is way worse and in it there was a little bit of

561
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,440
that I think when we moved to cloud because that was on people's credit cards and we're like oh

562
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,360
yeah your lambda function ran wild and now my credit card got maxed out like that was an outage

563
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:04,780
that would happen that caused problems for people that was more serious than like oh a server crashed

564
00:45:04,780 --> 00:45:09,360
right like oh like no I have to pay this bill now but that's more of being accountable financially

565
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,500
right like it's being accountable but it's still like you know shit happens and the AI

566
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:20,060
AI is propping up the United States economy right now that's what I'm saying nobody's going to be

567
00:45:20,060 --> 00:45:25,640
like this is going to be like a you know a trial and error people are just like it's magic and you

568
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:31,300
must use it you know but I also think like anything is going to take time to make it a process and

569
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:36,380
nobody's like we've talked about how execs love it we've talked about how it vibe codes some cool

570
00:45:36,380 --> 00:45:41,660
stuff but nobody's talked about how you get from there to production nobody it's the elephant in

571
00:45:41,660 --> 00:45:46,100
the room we're not talking about how to train juniors to use it how to make sure you're learning

572
00:45:46,100 --> 00:45:51,260
and it's not making you just dumb like it could actually probably be more profitable if we would

573
00:45:51,260 --> 00:45:56,660
figure out how to get from point a to point b like it's not even like shade it would figure out how

574
00:45:56,660 --> 00:46:03,180
to actually make it a thing I don't know so you see a role for AI in this in in CICD and platform

575
00:46:03,180 --> 00:46:10,820
space yes I mean I think I like many engineers do view AI as a tool executives like notwithstanding

576
00:46:10,820 --> 00:46:16,960
being like this is productivity magic and will replace people and like the doom and gloom of

577
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:26,260
late-stage capitalism come to fruition I view it as a tool when I spoke at CubeCon EU several years

578
00:46:26,260 --> 00:46:33,280
ago about OPA and conf test and chat GPT was out and was terrible and I remember like being like

579
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,680
write me a rego policy and it gave me all this stuff that like is invalid code and I was like

580
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:46,180
and I think now with I mean who knows where AI will be in May when this comes out but I think

581
00:46:46,180 --> 00:46:53,760
now it's like Opus 4.6 just came out I've found real value with with that tool but I do think

582
00:46:53,760 --> 00:47:04,440
that the downside we're not really united and as a as a career or even at a company level it's it's

583
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:10,040
hard to unite in how people are using AI I think because there is both there like people who really

584
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:14,580
hate AI and are like I'll never use AI and then people who are like I really love AI they're like

585
00:47:14,580 --> 00:47:18,080
well I'm just gonna stay quiet or the people who really hate AI are like well I'm just gonna stay

586
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,400
quiet and so we're like not yeah it's it's definitely an elephant in the room I do think

587
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:29,040
I think another issue is just that like AI is so verbose and so then people are opening these PRs

588
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:35,240
with you know again it's the it's the early startup nightmare of like the one engineer who

589
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:39,880
in the middle of the night changes 400 files and writes like 10,000 lines of code and it's just

590
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:46,140
like please like look good to me like thumbs up approve yeah I think AI is really similar

591
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:52,360
I don't know the answer or the solution or even how to start to get there probably like speak about

592
00:47:52,360 --> 00:48:02,500
it more openly I think um and as as employees in tech like you know I also think it's like

593
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:07,520
like what you just said is speaking about it openly isn't it wild like we in this podcast

594
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:13,320
we've talked about GitOps DevOps SRE like all of these things there's been some sort of process

595
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,840
whether it's the right process the wrong process they've argued the process to death but like in

596
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:24,060
normal developer way no one is arguing the process in which to use AI into like in production and we

597
00:48:24,060 --> 00:48:28,740
would get value from that because that's how our industry works we come up with a process somebody

598
00:48:28,740 --> 00:48:33,420
else like rips your process apart and then they name it five different things even though you're

599
00:48:33,420 --> 00:48:37,220
doing the same process and you fight it out somewhere you know what I mean like nobody's

600
00:48:37,220 --> 00:48:41,260
doing that why are we not doing that with this thing that's supposed to change everything instead

601
00:48:41,260 --> 00:48:45,100
of deciding if we're going to use it or not use it you hate it or whatever kick the tires and

602
00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:49,980
figure out how we can use it in a safe way that we can teach junior engineers we can make it secure

603
00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:58,060
I will say the way I've been using it is it's improved my POCs dramatically where historically

604
00:48:58,060 --> 00:49:04,500
I wrote almost every POC I ever did in bash like the first time I wrote something it was just in

605
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:09,900
bash because I was familiar with it I can't deal with you like you just like that you are like I'm

606
00:49:09,900 --> 00:49:14,440
gonna pick the one thing that everybody hates and I'm gonna use the one commonality that like I knew

607
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,780
how to write it and like but I was like like full-on like websites and APIs in bash like I was just like

608
00:49:18,780 --> 00:49:21,880
you know what like I don't until I got to a certain point like I would move over like those

609
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:27,140
javascript people who are obsessed with javascript but with bash it's just wild I could do it I could

610
00:49:27,140 --> 00:49:33,100
do it but like I've been able to do so much more not because of my limitations but because I know

611
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:37,860
roughly how the thing should look and and be able to fill in the deals like I wrote a mobile app

612
00:49:37,860 --> 00:49:45,760
wrote like I vibe coded a mobile app as a POC oh no no no not in bash with with AI with he would

613
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:52,720
try it though Eve like he he if anybody would try it he would try it it would be like javascript with

614
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:58,500
a back end of bash yeah but like I vibe coded a mobile app to like see if the POC would work

615
00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:05,980
so that I could show the process and the value to get budget to pay a person right like that was

616
00:50:05,980 --> 00:50:11,740
that's that was my thought process in in use case here was I want something to exist I need to show

617
00:50:11,740 --> 00:50:16,900
why and how it might work and I need to at least prove it up but beyond just a description right

618
00:50:16,900 --> 00:50:20,280
like here's a paper of like how this thing's like no no I'm going to show you a video of what I

619
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,220
think should be possible in this thing and I will show 10 of it right like maybe not everything

620
00:50:25,220 --> 00:50:29,420
works but we we get there right and it took me about a day and a half to vibe code it it cost

621
00:50:29,420 --> 00:50:34,160
me 40 in clod code of like okay this is enough sessions that there we go let's let's put this

622
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:39,020
out there record a video and now I can go through the process of hey here's the thing that I want to

623
00:50:39,020 --> 00:50:45,020
exist I found a consultancy or a freelancer or hire on a full dev if we think it's valuable enough

624
00:50:45,020 --> 00:50:49,200
here's the budget we want to set aside for it we want to prove this out as something that we can

625
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:54,900
support and make it possible and and granted they can use AI in it as well like right they're going

626
00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:58,640
to use some of that but they're going to have much more knowledge in how it should be set up

627
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:03,120
and how it can be maintained than me just like let's see if this one works and and get it work

628
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:08,000
enough to deploy to my phone but don't you think that in itself is a better value prop than we can

629
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:13,600
fire everybody and then like we'll just vibe code everything and it'll be great like you still saved

630
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:20,760
money by like making this thing more robust but like faster you proved it that it would be something

631
00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:25,960
that's productive and worth spending the money on why is that never the value prop when we like

632
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,220
are selling these things and for me I think the promise is bigger right because the promise is in

633
00:51:30,220 --> 00:51:36,720
a year I don't need to hire someone right and when we're on opus 10 then it's like okay give me

634
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:46,160
the me the full app I've tried to like debug a 4,000 lined like it's rough like I think Claude's

635
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:52,820
a game changer but it's rough like yeah but to me like I can go and start a proof of concept three

636
00:51:52,820 --> 00:51:57,960
different ways figure out why one way is the best way and then it helps me to get started when I'm

637
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:04,060
deer in the headlights overwhelmed with something you know and helps you break down and plan and go

638
00:52:04,060 --> 00:52:08,680
really in depth and then go pull me sources then I can go read those sources it makes you so much

639
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:14,480
more efficient and it does it's really helped me not to be stuck as much you know I think there's

640
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:20,620
a really good space for AI in incident response of looking over all the logs everywhere forever

641
00:52:20,620 --> 00:52:26,360
and being like this might point you toward like more toward a solution I think that would be a

642
00:52:27,100 --> 00:52:32,340
application of it that I'm sure someone is I'm sure there's some startup somewhere yeah it's

643
00:52:32,340 --> 00:52:37,200
really good at logs well think about it but the human eye right like our eyes get tired watching

644
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,360
line to line to line you're you're more likely to miss something so if you can get something

645
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:47,140
to at least like narrow it down a little bit then you can go in there and like it's like the perfect

646
00:52:47,140 --> 00:52:51,180
use case really like it's one of the really good use cases I was just posted on blue sky like the

647
00:52:51,180 --> 00:52:54,660
other day of like we spent trillions of dollars to make computers read their own error messages

648
00:52:54,660 --> 00:53:00,200
right like that is the whole point I was just like you're not wrong I have used AI a lot and

649
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:06,780
found a lot of value in it actually for soft skills for like forming messages or copy pasting

650
00:53:06,780 --> 00:53:11,680
some slack messages and being like is this person being like rude to me or am I just reading into

651
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:18,400
that and then also being like here's my response can you make it like not rude or mean or like

652
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,820
I hate this person and then Claude's like you should hate this person and I'm like thanks

653
00:53:22,820 --> 00:53:27,460
let me tell you Claude will Claude will make you feel better about some things like

654
00:53:27,460 --> 00:53:33,160
you're absolutely right and uses it to like reply to like her ex-husband and I'm just like

655
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:39,220
one time I used it when uh when my partner and I had a fight and I was just like he doesn't

656
00:53:39,220 --> 00:53:43,760
understand and Claude was like well look at this from from his perspective and I was like thanks

657
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:52,200
therapist Claude I'm just like I went from like how do people like use AI as a therapist to like

658
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:57,440
okay okay I see how you went down the like I see how you went down the like wrong road

659
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:02,620
maybe I'm not gonna go through it but like it's good for taking the emotion out of it and then

660
00:54:02,620 --> 00:54:07,840
listing some logic for you like it's not bad it's also a good hype man probably too good for a few

661
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:14,200
people but like yeah a little you have to be careful that you're not you know they're they're

662
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:19,380
real dangerous there I think we're gonna be okay but some of those red pill podcasters I'm like

663
00:54:19,380 --> 00:54:27,000
I can see how this would be really bad for you yeah as a woman in tech I'm using it for the

664
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:32,700
confidence boost of like you're not an imposter and they're using it exactly they're used we're

665
00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:38,140
like no you don't have that problem please stop it's so real I felt it in my soul we're right

666
00:54:38,140 --> 00:54:45,960
about time um Eve I'm curious is there is there any advice you would give to someone coming into

667
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,060
whatever we want to call the platform engineering CICD DevOps whatever we want to call this space

668
00:54:50,060 --> 00:54:54,400
of of something that they should should or shouldn't be doing something they should try

669
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,240
to look at or even just how to like get started and have some more I don't say authority but

670
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:04,680
some better designs on the real world's implications of how we ship code to customers

671
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:09,880
oh I would say there are a couple things one is um and maybe this isn't universal but it's

672
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:15,920
absolutely true for me is like just go do something as much as I disliked my computer

673
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:20,240
science class where my professor was like just go do something just go do something just go

674
00:55:20,240 --> 00:55:26,840
like write a kubernetes namespace spec and then a pod spec and use like kubernetes on docker desktop

675
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:33,340
to like play I have always learned best by like doing and actually like using using my hands to

676
00:55:33,340 --> 00:55:40,780
type and make make something I'd say the second thing is if you are lucky enough to have someone

677
00:55:40,780 --> 00:55:46,440
in your life who is you know a senior engineer or you're a junior at a company or you have

678
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:52,100
friends who graduated a couple years before you and are now working is to get comfortable

679
00:55:52,100 --> 00:55:57,020
saying that you don't know and like asking for help I think I was very lucky in my first job

680
00:55:57,020 --> 00:56:02,560
that I had an incredible mentor who was like don't stay stuck for too long like don't stay

681
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:07,080
stuck for like more than half an hour before sending me a team's message and being like I

682
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:11,780
don't know what's happening I think I think it's really valuable to get comfortable with the feeling

683
00:56:11,780 --> 00:56:17,000
of like not knowing and then from admitting even if you're just admitting to yourself like I don't

684
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,400
know you can take it to Claude and like no one will ever have to know if you're like me and like

685
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:25,780
I'm a very introverted person who's like I don't know what I'm doing it might not know the answer

686
00:56:25,780 --> 00:56:33,160
but it gets you unstuck though yeah but just just get comfortable with not knowing or get maybe like

687
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,840
get comfortable with discomfort because I feel like there is a lot of that in tech which is

688
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:42,040
constantly changing and you're constantly learning new things shout out to mentors like that because

689
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:46,340
they are like the make it break it especially I think especially in women's careers because it's

690
00:56:46,940 --> 00:56:51,500
so much harder to be able to like come from that place of imposter syndrome and people kind of

691
00:56:51,500 --> 00:56:55,040
already assume that you don't know what you mean what you're talking about so like I think those

692
00:56:55,040 --> 00:57:01,640
mentors are just really really important what was your handle again and how did you come up with it

693
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:10,340
help me exit vi and and again like I came up through I was not like a dev I was doing data

694
00:57:10,340 --> 00:57:16,680
analysis and so the first time that I had to commit something to get I was like how do I get

695
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:23,800
out of this like where am I help me and I think it's it's a joke that everyone understands I think

696
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:29,100
one of my most popular videos on youtube is is 10 ways to exit vi which is because it shows up in

697
00:57:29,100 --> 00:57:33,120
google searches it's just like yeah no here's here's 10 ways you can get out did you really

698
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:37,720
find 10 whole ways yeah oh there's more than that actually people left comments it was just like I

699
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:44,780
had no idea did I did one time I was I was trying to to show my partner how how difficult it is to

700
00:57:44,780 --> 00:57:50,800
exit and he's a data scientist and I was like try to exit this and he just like closed the terminal

701
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:55,300
and I had had a tab like a different tab that I was actually doing something on and I was like oh

702
00:57:55,300 --> 00:58:02,080
the joke is on me that's my fault oh oh no wouldn't the joke goes wrong yeah yeah I think that's like

703
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:07,280
so relatable but also like do you just wonder like is it some mean gotcha that they don't teach you

704
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:12,760
git or like vi in like school like are they trying to hurt people's feelings like or is that just to

705
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:19,900
make sure the rate of dropout is like not increasing it's the gatekeeper like and then they're just like

706
00:58:19,900 --> 00:58:25,360
we hired an intern and it knows both and I'm just like is it like someone told them the secret like

707
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,420
that's like unfair Eve thank you so much for coming on the show uh we will have links to

708
00:58:30,420 --> 00:58:35,060
your handles in the show notes everyone can check it out and uh thanks everyone for listening and

709
00:58:35,060 --> 00:58:39,880
we will talk to you again soon you're gonna get like a bunch of likes on your like instagram and

710
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,460
they're gonna be like for me going through all your videos and like relating I was gonna back

711
00:58:43,460 --> 00:58:45,920
go through the backlog yeah thank you so much

712
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:54,340
thank you for listening to this episode of fork around and find out if you like this show please

713
00:58:54,340 --> 00:58:59,280
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714
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:03,820
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715
00:59:03,820 --> 00:59:10,760
sponsor this show please go to fafo.fm sponsor and reach out to us there about what you're

716
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:16,020
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717
00:59:16,020 --> 00:59:19,040
pagers stay quiet we'll see you again next time