WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.700 --> 00:00:02.730 Matt: Hey, Kurt, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:03.429 --> 00:00:04.749 kurt: Matt, thanks a lot for having me, man. 00:00:04.749 --> 00:00:05.359 This is great. 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:06.689 It's the first time we've really 00:00:07.029 --> 00:00:10.200 Matt: Yeah, without the, the, I'll say the distraction. 00:00:10.899 --> 00:00:12.049 kurt: without the round table. 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:15.449 Matt: the round table, without, the lovely Jonathan Denwood 00:00:15.459 --> 00:00:18.349 hosting over at the WP Tonic. 00:00:18.350 --> 00:00:20.009 You are a regular there. 00:00:20.009 --> 00:00:22.199 You're the official co host, I'd say. 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:23.619 I mean, that's how I perceive it. 00:00:24.319 --> 00:00:25.139 kurt: It feels like it. 00:00:25.529 --> 00:00:27.580 He sends me invites every week and I show up. 00:00:27.959 --> 00:00:31.440 Matt: You got into WordPress through an interesting route. 00:00:31.469 --> 00:00:37.104 I think I heard you once say that you were working at a motorcycle dealership 00:00:37.105 --> 00:00:38.444 or you owned a motorcycle dealership. 00:00:38.655 --> 00:00:39.685 What's the backstory? 00:00:40.385 --> 00:00:44.045 kurt: So I have a backstory in automotive service. 00:00:44.105 --> 00:00:48.814 I mean, if we really go back, back, back, and you know, those are 13, 14 hours a 00:00:48.814 --> 00:00:52.504 day, standing on concrete, arguing with people from sun, sun up to sundown. 00:00:53.014 --> 00:00:56.374 And, after we had our first child, I realized I was only 00:00:56.384 --> 00:00:58.144 seeing my baby girl on Sundays. 00:00:58.844 --> 00:01:00.304 She was asleep when I went to work. 00:01:00.304 --> 00:01:01.914 She was asleep when I came home from work. 00:01:02.294 --> 00:01:05.104 And I said, well, this, this just ain't going to work, man. 00:01:05.114 --> 00:01:07.124 Like I'm, and I was getting older and we had kids late. 00:01:07.594 --> 00:01:09.254 And so I was like, this ain't going to work. 00:01:09.614 --> 00:01:11.484 And so what were the things that. 00:01:11.989 --> 00:01:14.719 you know, interested in me, I would build websites as a hobby, 00:01:14.999 --> 00:01:16.949 like with Dreamweaver and stuff. 00:01:16.969 --> 00:01:21.259 And I experimented with Drupal and Joomla and a couple of other things. 00:01:21.259 --> 00:01:24.139 And I helped some nonprofits out with some stuff like hobbies, like most 00:01:24.139 --> 00:01:29.349 of, most of us agencies do, but then eventually I found WordPress in 2004. 00:01:30.049 --> 00:01:31.599 And I was like, this is different. 00:01:32.049 --> 00:01:33.189 I kind of like this. 00:01:33.190 --> 00:01:38.289 And then by 2008, the economy had taken a real hard dip. 00:01:38.929 --> 00:01:43.089 That 13 hours of standing on your feet at the car dealership made you about 35. 00:01:43.789 --> 00:01:46.829 And I told my wife, I said, this is not financially feasible. 00:01:46.829 --> 00:01:48.129 I'm not going to do this anymore. 00:01:48.789 --> 00:01:53.169 And so I literally just hung my tile and said, Hey, I'm a, I'm a web guy. 00:01:53.169 --> 00:01:54.279 I'll help you make a website. 00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:59.209 And I took on a ton of startups and super cheap projects and, 00:01:59.219 --> 00:02:00.599 christened myself through fire. 00:02:00.949 --> 00:02:02.509 And, Manana Nomas was born. 00:02:03.059 --> 00:02:06.199 Matt: We have a similar background because I came up in the auto industry. 00:02:06.199 --> 00:02:10.299 My family owned car dealerships, was once Mazda, Isuzu, and Peugeot, 00:02:10.309 --> 00:02:13.419 then merged into or migrated over to General Motors, Cadillac, 00:02:13.419 --> 00:02:15.699 Oldsmobile, and Chevrolet at the time. 00:02:16.189 --> 00:02:16.749 kurt: That's a heck of a 00:02:16.939 --> 00:02:18.519 Matt: Yeah, it's quite, quite the migration. 00:02:18.539 --> 00:02:21.269 My grandfather actually started one of the very first, Mazda 00:02:21.269 --> 00:02:24.689 dealerships in the country, right, when they first came, to America. 00:02:25.069 --> 00:02:31.769 I've spent a lot of time in every facet of, the auto Industry as as a dealer. 00:02:32.019 --> 00:02:35.929 from washing, well, from , doing landscaping around, the dealership 00:02:35.929 --> 00:02:39.979 to washing cars, delivering parts, service, writer, parts delivery. 00:02:39.979 --> 00:02:42.499 And then the consumer internet came and I was the only one 00:02:42.499 --> 00:02:44.029 who knew how that stuff worked. 00:02:44.029 --> 00:02:47.209 So I quickly became the, the internet sales person when 00:02:47.209 --> 00:02:48.649 that first came onto the scene. 00:02:49.289 --> 00:02:53.899 there's a lot of, I've always said like there's a lot that you learn. 00:02:54.224 --> 00:02:55.844 In that business, right? 00:02:55.864 --> 00:02:59.524 So, so long as you're like, you know, really trying to deliver a 00:02:59.524 --> 00:03:04.084 great experience for a customer and do right by the customer, there's 00:03:04.084 --> 00:03:05.944 a lot of great lessons there. 00:03:05.994 --> 00:03:08.174 especially in service writing as a service writer. 00:03:08.184 --> 00:03:08.504 Yeah. 00:03:08.594 --> 00:03:11.934 I noticed you said you're spending a lot of time, maybe arguing with folks on the 00:03:11.934 --> 00:03:16.464 lot because you're trying to explain to them how this thing is getting forward. 00:03:16.489 --> 00:03:18.219 Fixed what goes into it. 00:03:18.399 --> 00:03:20.689 There's literal man hours that you're tracking. 00:03:20.689 --> 00:03:21.479 There's parts. 00:03:21.659 --> 00:03:22.599 So there's logistics. 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:24.839 Sometimes you don't have the part, you gotta go get the part of the parts, 00:03:24.859 --> 00:03:26.669 the laid part does not the right part. 00:03:26.889 --> 00:03:29.109 Now you're scrambling and you're getting all this in and you're trying 00:03:29.109 --> 00:03:33.019 to do this all under budget, or to the budget you presented the customer. 00:03:33.179 --> 00:03:35.579 It sounds very much like web design. 00:03:36.279 --> 00:03:37.889 there's a great similarity there. 00:03:38.589 --> 00:03:42.169 kurt: So many transferable skills there and you really hit on one 00:03:42.169 --> 00:03:43.389 of the things that drove me. 00:03:43.729 --> 00:03:47.959 And that was that customer relationship, that customer, you know, interface. 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:51.999 I was so discontent after two decades in the automotive industry that I 00:03:51.999 --> 00:03:54.539 wrote and published a book called service writing in black and white. 00:03:55.214 --> 00:03:56.824 And I didn't write it to sell it. 00:03:56.854 --> 00:04:00.244 I wrote it to flush this crud out of my brain. 00:04:00.684 --> 00:04:03.834 And when I did, I just self published it and put it up and 00:04:03.834 --> 00:04:07.644 thought, well, that's it, it's done, Matt, people bought the dang book. 00:04:07.864 --> 00:04:11.244 And, and, and then I panicked because it was poorly written. 00:04:11.244 --> 00:04:13.294 I had to go and do a second version of it. 00:04:13.654 --> 00:04:17.154 but one of the customers was Ducati North America, the motorcycle company. 00:04:17.664 --> 00:04:21.574 And I'd worked at a ton of dealerships and my hobby was racing motorcycles. 00:04:21.934 --> 00:04:24.294 And, you know, your dream is always like, Oh, if I could work for 00:04:24.294 --> 00:04:26.934 one of the big, you know, one of the big OEMs, that'd be awesome. 00:04:27.284 --> 00:04:29.354 And out of the blue, they called up one day and said, can you write 00:04:29.354 --> 00:04:30.744 us a course for service writers? 00:04:31.204 --> 00:04:35.064 and that led to a decade of working with Ducati, both as a contractor 00:04:35.064 --> 00:04:36.444 and as a full time employee. 00:04:36.454 --> 00:04:39.574 And then I graduated from Ducati to Suzuki. 00:04:40.274 --> 00:04:44.314 Branding wise, it seems like a big step backwards to go from Ducati to Suzuki, 00:04:44.644 --> 00:04:47.864 but what people don't recognize is Suzuki is so much bigger of a company. 00:04:48.244 --> 00:04:51.364 So then I was working with automotive, marine, motorcycle. 00:04:51.364 --> 00:04:56.234 I was in charge of publications and training and that e learning that you're 00:04:56.284 --> 00:05:00.684 hearing me talk about now, that became the foundation for the stuff that I do with WP 00:05:00.714 --> 00:05:03.744 Tonic, Lifter LMS, and of course, Manana 00:05:03.939 --> 00:05:07.259 Matt: There's an element to, what, what, what I like about the agency game. 00:05:07.459 --> 00:05:07.919 This might. 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:12.709 Not come off sounding too good, but there's an element to the agency 00:05:12.709 --> 00:05:17.459 space where you sort of you build up a portfolio You build up some brand 00:05:17.459 --> 00:05:21.319 recognition and it gives you a little bit of confidence and you can say 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:26.249 things like well Hey, you know when you come to me the website costs 5, 000. 00:05:26.249 --> 00:05:29.679 Well, the guy down the street says it's 2, 500 Yeah, okay great, but the guy down the 00:05:29.679 --> 00:05:31.589 street is not us and it's not our process. 00:05:31.589 --> 00:05:36.049 It's not our portfolio mine is 5, That was something that I learned, literally 00:05:36.049 --> 00:05:40.069 selling parts at, for, for General Motors because it was when you presented the 00:05:40.069 --> 00:05:44.959 problem to the customer, hey, you need a new, whatever, carburetor for your motor. 00:05:45.189 --> 00:05:50.664 you go, do you want the General Motors part or do you want Whatever the, I don't 00:05:50.664 --> 00:05:53.864 remember the name of the parts, AC Delco parts or whatever the, those parts were 00:05:54.034 --> 00:05:57.794 and you were selling on, do you want the brand recognition that's five times more 00:05:57.834 --> 00:06:00.184 expensive or do you want the cheaper one? 00:06:00.194 --> 00:06:04.914 And it just gets you into this, this mode of presenting the problem and 00:06:04.914 --> 00:06:06.704 massaging the brand and upset upselling. 00:06:06.705 --> 00:06:11.344 And I know it sounds tough, but these are, these are things that you go through in 00:06:11.354 --> 00:06:13.054 the automotive world, at least back then. 00:06:13.414 --> 00:06:17.074 Where that's what was profitable selling these parts selling this experience 00:06:17.134 --> 00:06:21.304 selling the service and ultimately if the customer trusted you They invested 00:06:21.304 --> 00:06:24.644 their dollars with you and as long as you're fixing the problem In the 00:06:24.644 --> 00:06:26.474 right way and delivering it back. 00:06:26.474 --> 00:06:27.894 And it's a nice clean car. 00:06:28.104 --> 00:06:29.014 It smells fresh. 00:06:29.014 --> 00:06:32.304 You don't hand it back to them filthy from the technician or, 00:06:32.494 --> 00:06:34.134 you know, or like oil stains. 00:06:34.294 --> 00:06:36.804 Like these are things that you just, people might just go over their heads, 00:06:36.804 --> 00:06:40.154 but from a brand and customer experience, these are, these are great stories. 00:06:40.854 --> 00:06:45.604 kurt: And it all stems from, you know, your, your root skills in communication. 00:06:46.114 --> 00:06:50.124 And leadership and I became a lifetime student of leadership and 00:06:50.124 --> 00:06:53.344 I studied, you know, all the big names, John Maxwell, especially I 00:06:53.344 --> 00:06:56.364 went and got my certification with that for public speaking and training. 00:06:56.764 --> 00:07:01.694 And that to me is what drives, you know, the root success of all 00:07:01.694 --> 00:07:05.764 of these different verticals and platforms that I've had experience in. 00:07:06.464 --> 00:07:11.634 Matt: The, I'd imagine, like, so writing the book, like you didn't 00:07:11.644 --> 00:07:13.644 have any expectations of selling it. 00:07:13.644 --> 00:07:15.824 Were you doing any other sort of online? 00:07:16.389 --> 00:07:20.469 Communication or blogging or podcasting at that time when you did 00:07:20.524 --> 00:07:23.804 kurt: put out a couple of Twitter posts, you know, back when it was Twitter. 00:07:24.074 --> 00:07:25.824 So that was 2007, right? 00:07:25.824 --> 00:07:27.264 So I put out a couple of Twitter posts. 00:07:27.654 --> 00:07:29.464 I made a website called service writer book. 00:07:29.734 --> 00:07:30.164 com. 00:07:30.194 --> 00:07:34.194 I thought, well, That sounds like it's SEO, you know, powered, right? 00:07:34.544 --> 00:07:34.994 What is it? 00:07:35.004 --> 00:07:36.054 It's a service writer book. 00:07:36.414 --> 00:07:38.884 and like I said, people just started buying it. 00:07:38.894 --> 00:07:43.064 And then I didn't even have it on Amazon for like the first five years. 00:07:43.104 --> 00:07:45.444 I just, I was just letting it do its own thing. 00:07:45.444 --> 00:07:47.774 And then finally, I said, you know, I should probably put it in Amazon 00:07:47.774 --> 00:07:49.064 and see if it does anything there. 00:07:49.414 --> 00:07:52.954 And what's really weird is sometimes I'll see used versions of it for sale. 00:07:53.354 --> 00:07:55.604 And I'm like, someone actually bought that paperback. 00:07:55.814 --> 00:07:57.224 And then wanted to sell it used. 00:07:57.924 --> 00:07:59.804 I'm kind of flattered, but I'm kind of mortified. 00:07:59.899 --> 00:08:03.469 Matt: Imagine if you signed it, how much more valuable that 00:08:03.484 --> 00:08:04.534 kurt: And that's weird. 00:08:04.544 --> 00:08:07.814 I used to have students at Ducati, bring me a copy of the book and ask me to 00:08:07.814 --> 00:08:09.564 sign it in class when I was the trainer. 00:08:09.894 --> 00:08:12.274 And I was like, it's such a surreal experience. 00:08:12.654 --> 00:08:14.844 I wrote my second book and published that in. 00:08:15.544 --> 00:08:17.464 And that one's a general leadership book. 00:08:17.734 --> 00:08:20.284 And I did the same kind of game plan for that. 00:08:20.324 --> 00:08:21.354 I made a website. 00:08:21.674 --> 00:08:24.744 I put up a sister course, obviously e learning is my game. 00:08:25.064 --> 00:08:28.684 put up a sister course and put out a couple of posts about action leadership 00:08:28.684 --> 00:08:31.204 from the edge and copy started to sell. 00:08:31.244 --> 00:08:34.154 In that case, I made it, also a digital book that you could 00:08:34.164 --> 00:08:35.924 download off of, Amazon. 00:08:36.449 --> 00:08:38.729 And it's, I just let it do its own thing. 00:08:38.729 --> 00:08:42.889 I didn't do any of that, you know, any of the scams to become a number one rated 00:08:42.889 --> 00:08:44.459 book or bestseller or any of that stuff. 00:08:44.459 --> 00:08:47.719 I just, I just let the book naturally organically do its thing. 00:08:48.019 --> 00:08:51.069 And I just focus on my day to day running my agency and my business 00:08:51.259 --> 00:08:55.509 Matt: I want to talk about what you do at Lifter and what you do at, Manana no mass, 00:08:55.509 --> 00:08:57.199 where you've titled yourself web dude. 00:08:57.529 --> 00:08:59.459 But before we get there, there's. 00:09:00.104 --> 00:09:03.834 I mean, what's in the WordPress air these days is, what is WordPress? 00:09:03.854 --> 00:09:05.584 WordPress is too challenging. 00:09:05.594 --> 00:09:07.214 WordPress doesn't know where it's going. 00:09:07.454 --> 00:09:10.904 There's a lot of, you know, debate back and forth of, are 00:09:10.904 --> 00:09:12.274 we still a publishing system? 00:09:12.274 --> 00:09:13.604 Are we a content management system? 00:09:13.604 --> 00:09:15.274 Are we a web building workflow tool? 00:09:15.294 --> 00:09:18.424 Are we a lifter or an LMS, basis for an LMS? 00:09:19.124 --> 00:09:21.534 What's missing here in your opinion? 00:09:21.534 --> 00:09:24.174 Like I had lengthy conversations. 00:09:24.174 --> 00:09:25.044 Is it marketing? 00:09:25.044 --> 00:09:26.054 Is it education? 00:09:26.054 --> 00:09:26.104 Like. 00:09:26.729 --> 00:09:29.709 What's missing, if anything, in your eyes of like, where 00:09:29.709 --> 00:09:32.109 WordPress sits for the end user? 00:09:32.109 --> 00:09:32.629 What is it? 00:09:32.629 --> 00:09:33.479 Who should be using it? 00:09:33.509 --> 00:09:35.159 What's the missing link for this stuff? 00:09:35.859 --> 00:09:36.449 kurt: to me. 00:09:36.459 --> 00:09:38.519 And these are just personal thoughts of Kurt, right? 00:09:38.539 --> 00:09:41.639 So, all those things that you said, what is WordPress? 00:09:41.689 --> 00:09:42.559 Is it a CMS? 00:09:42.579 --> 00:09:43.099 Is it this? 00:09:43.109 --> 00:09:45.969 Is it that is the sad part of it is, is that yes, yeah. 00:09:46.389 --> 00:09:50.789 Yes, yes, it's, it's, it's all of that, which makes the messaging 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:52.529 horribly muddled and spread out. 00:09:52.989 --> 00:09:56.289 I do challenge people that are seriously opinionated though. 00:09:56.299 --> 00:09:59.889 Like the folks that go, this is broken and this user user interface is wrong. 00:09:59.889 --> 00:10:01.309 And this is two clicks to get here. 00:10:01.309 --> 00:10:03.469 And, and I see that and I get that. 00:10:03.489 --> 00:10:03.949 I do. 00:10:03.949 --> 00:10:09.009 I, I, I've been in the platform since 2004 and I do understand a lot of the, 00:10:09.369 --> 00:10:12.989 you know, armchair quarterbacking that we can do on the product as it's built. 00:10:13.689 --> 00:10:20.089 But I've also introduced WordPress to literally hundreds of clients. 00:10:20.789 --> 00:10:21.669 As a new product. 00:10:22.369 --> 00:10:26.609 And to me, it is like handing and it's like hand handing a toddler 00:10:26.609 --> 00:10:30.739 an iPad, you know, within 5 or 10 minutes, they figure out what they're 00:10:30.739 --> 00:10:34.609 going to touch, click on or get to to make a cartoon go across the screen. 00:10:35.049 --> 00:10:37.269 And I find that almost. 00:10:37.839 --> 00:10:42.919 The dumber someone is, the more fresh they are to the platform, almost the easier the 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:47.569 adoption is someone that has come up with classic editor and then been through the 00:10:47.569 --> 00:10:50.309 block editor and the growth pains of that. 00:10:50.699 --> 00:10:55.379 And then to get into full site editing, it's almost like there's so many 00:10:55.829 --> 00:10:57.839 facets of things that have worked. 00:10:58.199 --> 00:11:01.049 In their past that create mental blocks to go forward. 00:11:01.589 --> 00:11:04.879 If I'm making any sense, I, it's for me to articulate that. 00:11:04.909 --> 00:11:08.149 And then you add to that, you know, you got the bricks conversation, 00:11:08.149 --> 00:11:11.319 the Elementor conversation, the Divi conversation, the beaver builder. 00:11:11.319 --> 00:11:14.999 It's, and, and sometimes I think, Oh, I definitely need a 00:11:14.999 --> 00:11:16.269 page builder to knock this out. 00:11:16.299 --> 00:11:17.509 And other times I go, you know what? 00:11:17.509 --> 00:11:21.099 I'm just going to try cadence and see what I can do in cadence and magically. 00:11:21.779 --> 00:11:23.379 Cadence seems to work pretty dang good. 00:11:23.954 --> 00:11:25.754 Matt: WordPress has been around for 20 years. 00:11:25.804 --> 00:11:28.844 I'll oversimplify this and then love your thoughts on this. 00:11:28.844 --> 00:11:31.424 So, for the first five years, like, you had to be hardcore. 00:11:32.124 --> 00:11:36.104 Techie developer like you weren't you know for the first five years was there the 00:11:36.114 --> 00:11:40.304 magic five minute install I'm not really sure I forget the first five years But you 00:11:40.304 --> 00:11:44.179 really had to be like super techie to get this thing off the ground From, you know, 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:49.089 years five through 10, then there were folks like, I think me, we're not, when I 00:11:49.099 --> 00:11:53.879 came into it, who I was not a developer, but I was able to use a lamp stack, 00:11:53.929 --> 00:11:58.029 Linux, Apache, my SQL and PHP, and like put this thing up there because remember 00:11:58.039 --> 00:11:59.989 there wasn't a managed WordPress hosting. 00:11:59.989 --> 00:12:04.139 Like we all enjoy today, there was a C panel one click installer, but not 00:12:04.139 --> 00:12:05.839 every web host was using that back then. 00:12:06.239 --> 00:12:07.919 so you had to be like a power user. 00:12:07.999 --> 00:12:10.579 Ultimately you were curious and willing to learn. 00:12:11.239 --> 00:12:11.649 And then the. 00:12:12.149 --> 00:12:17.769 Back half of the second decade is when we really saw, the user who came in 00:12:17.769 --> 00:12:21.589 through, let's say the Elementors and the page builders of the world that 00:12:21.589 --> 00:12:27.169 really exposed WordPress to building websites through their particular lens. 00:12:27.199 --> 00:12:30.459 Again, whatever it was, Beaver Builder, Elementor, Divi, Bricks. 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:37.244 And what I, my theory is, Why folks are so vocal in year 20 is that it's been 20 00:12:37.254 --> 00:12:45.404 years Which is an infinite amount of time in tech land, but it's this new core user 00:12:45.404 --> 00:12:51.544 of WordPress who came in from a product perspective who had all these issues that 00:12:51.544 --> 00:12:58.614 we all learned in the past smoothed over by UI and And UX albeit still challenging 00:12:58.764 --> 00:13:03.434 but much more easier to use than our first 10 years of WordPress Who are now like, 00:13:03.444 --> 00:13:05.184 Hey, I've been using this for five years. 00:13:05.194 --> 00:13:06.354 When is it getting better? 00:13:06.824 --> 00:13:11.724 And these folks, it's a largely attached to their livelihood, their web business, 00:13:11.744 --> 00:13:14.164 their marketing firm, their SEO practice. 00:13:14.714 --> 00:13:17.414 And they're like, we need to make this thing better. 00:13:17.794 --> 00:13:19.304 And they're a lot more vocal. 00:13:20.004 --> 00:13:22.964 Maybe not in the best ways, but they're a lot more vocal and they're doing 00:13:22.964 --> 00:13:25.224 it in pockets across the community. 00:13:25.264 --> 00:13:30.674 Facebook groups, YouTube live streams, like it's a whole new set of user. 00:13:30.774 --> 00:13:31.714 That's my feeling. 00:13:31.724 --> 00:13:33.984 That's why it's so pronounced these days. 00:13:34.324 --> 00:13:35.104 What are your thoughts? 00:13:35.804 --> 00:13:42.274 kurt: I agree with much of what you just said, but I drive back to use case 00:13:42.294 --> 00:13:44.584 and overall audience and community. 00:13:44.784 --> 00:13:45.144 Right. 00:13:45.154 --> 00:13:49.154 So like a lot of times I hear things about, and I'll just go right into 00:13:49.154 --> 00:13:51.474 like automations and CRM integrations. 00:13:51.474 --> 00:13:54.644 And, you know, is it's going to be a Zapier thing or a WP fusion 00:13:54.644 --> 00:13:56.014 thing, or why do I have to do this? 00:13:56.014 --> 00:14:00.384 And how come this doesn't come out of the box and you get these, Assumptions 00:14:00.394 --> 00:14:02.984 or these dang near entitlements, right? 00:14:02.984 --> 00:14:06.194 Where people are like, this should be this way out of the box. 00:14:06.564 --> 00:14:09.844 And there's a really major part of me. 00:14:09.904 --> 00:14:15.594 That's like, no, that's not what this was built for decades ago. 00:14:15.634 --> 00:14:19.124 Like even through its development, the idea that. 00:14:19.714 --> 00:14:23.824 Every single site can be a do it yourselfer, out of the box success, 00:14:24.284 --> 00:14:25.604 plug and play kind of thing. 00:14:25.884 --> 00:14:27.024 To me, it's kind of crazy. 00:14:27.024 --> 00:14:31.024 I mean, that's why there's experts and agencies around that do builds. 00:14:31.724 --> 00:14:35.524 A lot of times I find that I find myself telling potential 00:14:35.524 --> 00:14:37.574 clients how to do something. 00:14:37.959 --> 00:14:39.249 And this is a big mistake for me. 00:14:39.249 --> 00:14:42.539 I'll say, Oh, well, in this case, we're going to plug in the CRM 00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:45.319 and then we're going to take that CRM and hook it to an automation. 00:14:45.319 --> 00:14:47.619 We're going to use this recipe to automate this with this. 00:14:47.889 --> 00:14:51.149 And then people that sign into this form are going to get this tag and 00:14:51.149 --> 00:14:53.619 this tag is going to, and so, you know, the rest of the story, right? 00:14:53.619 --> 00:14:57.039 I'm, I'm telling us all out audience that I'm talking to 00:14:57.429 --> 00:14:58.639 doesn't care about any of that. 00:14:59.129 --> 00:15:00.379 They have a pain point. 00:15:00.409 --> 00:15:02.269 They want a web professional to fix it. 00:15:02.809 --> 00:15:04.809 And I think when we get into those level of. 00:15:05.024 --> 00:15:05.924 Conversations. 00:15:05.924 --> 00:15:09.414 We have to remember that we are the web professionals and we are the people that 00:15:09.414 --> 00:15:12.794 can answer those questions, solve those pain points and turn a profit doing it. 00:15:13.364 --> 00:15:17.824 I think we make the mistake like I've done multiple times myself of trying to 00:15:17.824 --> 00:15:23.664 explain all of this stuff to people from a do it yourself or perspective when that's 00:15:23.674 --> 00:15:27.874 not, if I was building SAS platforms, I wouldn't be explaining to everybody that 00:15:27.874 --> 00:15:29.494 bought the SAS platform, how I put it 00:15:29.504 --> 00:15:29.764 Matt: Right. 00:15:30.464 --> 00:15:32.514 kurt: I'd just be saying, what do you want? 00:15:32.544 --> 00:15:34.704 You want an automated calendar thing with an email function? 00:15:34.794 --> 00:15:35.344 I got that. 00:15:35.344 --> 00:15:35.914 Here you go. 00:15:36.234 --> 00:15:37.444 And that would be it. 00:15:37.464 --> 00:15:41.424 But in the WordPress space, we seem to get hooked on which plugins, 00:15:41.434 --> 00:15:43.074 which tools, which this, which that. 00:15:43.104 --> 00:15:48.614 And I think to the point that we drive a wedge of communication between 00:15:49.014 --> 00:15:51.264 professionals and potential clients. 00:15:51.564 --> 00:15:56.304 And when you give people That level of information that they didn't 00:15:56.314 --> 00:16:01.484 really ask for, you imply to them that they're responsible for their 00:16:01.484 --> 00:16:05.074 own website or that they must assume a do it yourself perspective. 00:16:05.434 --> 00:16:08.254 And sometimes we drive them away, we drive them to another source. 00:16:08.254 --> 00:16:11.164 I mean, not for nothing, I'm in the e learning space. 00:16:11.504 --> 00:16:15.434 So, I thought, you know what, everyone keeps asking for the Udemy experience, 00:16:15.464 --> 00:16:16.974 I should probably put a course on Udemy. 00:16:17.674 --> 00:16:19.284 What a nightmare. 00:16:19.694 --> 00:16:22.774 Like from a user perspective, you know, I had to add the course. 00:16:22.784 --> 00:16:24.314 I had to tick all their boxes. 00:16:24.314 --> 00:16:26.344 I had to verify who I was. 00:16:26.354 --> 00:16:28.874 I had all these things to do, and I'm not lying. 00:16:28.874 --> 00:16:30.454 I put that course up six months ago. 00:16:30.454 --> 00:16:34.164 And to this day, I'm still getting spam from putting a course on that website. 00:16:34.204 --> 00:16:36.354 Everybody wants to help me sell my Udemy course. 00:16:36.814 --> 00:16:38.344 I had a friend jump into Kajabi. 00:16:38.634 --> 00:16:41.364 I jumped into the back end of Kajabi to try and help them with something. 00:16:41.724 --> 00:16:44.354 And I thought, how in the world does what I'm seeing on 00:16:44.354 --> 00:16:45.804 the back end of this website? 00:16:46.504 --> 00:16:49.014 Resemble anything from the front end of the website. 00:16:49.714 --> 00:16:53.484 You know, it's just a huge disconnect compared to our experience in WordPress. 00:16:54.014 --> 00:16:56.944 But we've all made this assumption that SAS makes it easier. 00:16:57.474 --> 00:16:59.174 And that's not necessarily the case. 00:16:59.214 --> 00:17:03.554 I think it's very use case driven and we have to examine who our audience 00:17:03.554 --> 00:17:08.574 is for each instance, and in a lot of cases, the audience that we're talking 00:17:08.574 --> 00:17:12.044 to isn't even concerned with the stuff you and I were just talking about with 00:17:12.094 --> 00:17:14.934 the development of WordPress and the UX and the UI and the this and the that. 00:17:14.954 --> 00:17:15.984 They just want something that works. 00:17:15.989 --> 00:17:19.829 Matt: So from a user's perspective, especially in the learning, e learning 00:17:19.829 --> 00:17:25.659 world, is it, do they choose WordPress because they found a professional and 00:17:25.659 --> 00:17:30.049 that professional says, well, I only use WordPress or they look, or have they 00:17:30.049 --> 00:17:35.259 tried those other platforms and found the limitations and, and instead found 00:17:35.259 --> 00:17:39.269 WordPress to be much more flexible, but I'll be it with a bigger learning curve 00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:40.459 and maybe they need to hire somebody. 00:17:40.819 --> 00:17:42.259 What do you think from the user's perspective? 00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:46.879 Do they see, you know, choosing, you know, lifter and then hiring you at 00:17:46.879 --> 00:17:49.829 your agency, like from the user's perspective, where do they come in from? 00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:54.359 kurt: From the user's perspective, I am dealing with two very separate 00:17:54.399 --> 00:17:56.379 audiences, Matt, pardon me. 00:17:56.409 --> 00:18:00.279 And my agency, as far as I know, is one of the only ones really 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:01.399 going after the second one. 00:18:01.769 --> 00:18:04.579 So for agencies in the space, I'm giving you my magic sauce. 00:18:04.949 --> 00:18:07.769 The first one, those are course creators. 00:18:07.889 --> 00:18:10.959 Those are people that, you know, have, have either seen the dude 00:18:10.969 --> 00:18:14.179 posing next to his Lamborghini, you know, e learning is growing 00:18:14.179 --> 00:18:15.449 and you can make a million dollars. 00:18:15.449 --> 00:18:15.629 Right. 00:18:15.629 --> 00:18:16.949 And everyone goes, Oh, I want to do that. 00:18:16.949 --> 00:18:21.529 And they do the research and they come up with learn dash, Lifter, LMS, tutor, LMS, 00:18:21.549 --> 00:18:23.049 you know, being your top three searches. 00:18:23.399 --> 00:18:26.459 And then they, they start, you know, going down and then they start the, 00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:28.269 you know, feature benefit, right. 00:18:28.269 --> 00:18:30.159 Feature benefit versus dollar spent. 00:18:30.189 --> 00:18:30.989 What are they going to pick? 00:18:31.424 --> 00:18:34.264 And so in a lot of cases, I see people come to Lifter 00:18:34.284 --> 00:18:36.814 LMS from that type of search. 00:18:36.864 --> 00:18:40.424 And a lot of times, they really don't even know what they really want. 00:18:40.434 --> 00:18:44.844 They just heard somewhere that they can make a side hustle out 00:18:44.844 --> 00:18:46.474 of producing an online course. 00:18:47.174 --> 00:18:51.724 The other audience is completely the opposite of what you think. 00:18:51.724 --> 00:18:53.684 It's someone that doesn't want WordPress at all. 00:18:54.384 --> 00:18:54.754 Right. 00:18:55.024 --> 00:18:55.564 It is. 00:18:55.574 --> 00:18:57.804 So the first group is, they're the ones that may have sampled Kajabi or 00:18:57.804 --> 00:19:01.724 Udemy, but realize they need their own platform, which leads to WordPress. 00:19:02.244 --> 00:19:04.864 The second group are people that don't want WordPress. 00:19:04.894 --> 00:19:06.534 They explicitly do not want WordPress. 00:19:07.234 --> 00:19:10.014 And that's the group I am specifically targeting right now. 00:19:10.354 --> 00:19:15.479 Those are enterprise level, Corporations that have very, I'll 00:19:15.479 --> 00:19:18.829 say technical, but I don't believe it's technical, SCORM content that 00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:20.369 they make their learning content in. 00:19:20.699 --> 00:19:23.769 So there's a very specific, course authoring software. 00:19:24.169 --> 00:19:28.589 And typically these enterprise corporations would have a, special built 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.109 learning management system SCORM content. 00:19:32.589 --> 00:19:34.229 Typically those are very expensive. 00:19:34.649 --> 00:19:37.209 And newsflash, they usually kind of suck. 00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:39.149 So, they don't look good. 00:19:39.149 --> 00:19:40.199 They don't function good. 00:19:40.199 --> 00:19:43.229 They, they, they play the content and they do the reporting, but everything 00:19:43.229 --> 00:19:45.319 else is horrible and it's super expensive. 00:19:45.829 --> 00:19:48.819 So when I learned that I could take that SCORM content and I could 00:19:48.819 --> 00:19:52.899 effectively run it through a Lifter LMS website, for instance, and 00:19:52.899 --> 00:19:54.019 I'll just give you real numbers. 00:19:54.459 --> 00:19:59.799 I have a corporate client that spent 500, 000 developing their LMS, 400, 00:19:59.879 --> 00:20:02.549 000 a year for maintenance and hosting. 00:20:03.084 --> 00:20:07.214 The website barely worked and they only had 2, 500 users enrolled in the 00:20:07.364 --> 00:20:07.614 Matt: Hmm. 00:20:08.314 --> 00:20:11.054 kurt: By the time I worked it out, I told them, I said, you could hire me 00:20:11.054 --> 00:20:14.464 to drive across the country and teach people in person for that kind of budget. 00:20:15.064 --> 00:20:16.494 Look, what, what are we doing? 00:20:16.524 --> 00:20:17.274 That's crazy. 00:20:17.784 --> 00:20:20.974 And then I was like, you know, we could do this in Lifter LMS on a WordPress 00:20:20.994 --> 00:20:26.414 build, even with really good hosting and get you down to about five, maybe 50, 00:20:26.414 --> 00:20:30.584 000 a year, and they were like, we're not ready for that kind of change yet. 00:20:31.284 --> 00:20:32.604 And that was. 00:20:33.034 --> 00:20:37.264 The inspiration moment for me to go, I need to make this more public. 00:20:37.304 --> 00:20:42.504 I need to let more corporations understand that there's agencies like ours, that 00:20:42.504 --> 00:20:44.214 you don't have to be a do it yourself. 00:20:44.644 --> 00:20:45.024 Right. 00:20:45.084 --> 00:20:47.504 We can give you the service and the maintenance and the hosting, 00:20:47.504 --> 00:20:51.284 and we can do all that for you, but it ain't 400, 000 a year. 00:20:51.894 --> 00:20:53.024 It's like 50 grand a year. 00:20:53.024 --> 00:20:54.034 We update your plugins. 00:20:54.044 --> 00:20:55.314 You, you give us the content. 00:20:55.324 --> 00:20:56.084 We'll load it up for you. 00:20:56.084 --> 00:20:56.654 It's good to go. 00:20:57.074 --> 00:20:59.834 Matt: There's that whole enterprise world or bigger business side 00:20:59.834 --> 00:21:03.774 of, of, WordPress world is, is one that isn't explored enough. 00:21:04.204 --> 00:21:11.104 Um, I mean, as a decade long agency owner and then somebody who worked in at 00:21:11.104 --> 00:21:16.314 Pagely for enterprise hosting, I kind of know why, like technically, I know why. 00:21:16.314 --> 00:21:19.264 I also look, there's a lot of agencies that, that, that push 00:21:19.264 --> 00:21:20.774 into marketing for enterprise. 00:21:20.784 --> 00:21:22.994 This is a deeper conversation, but I, at the end of the day, I think 00:21:22.994 --> 00:21:25.024 it sort of boils down to maybe a lot of people are just afraid. 00:21:25.094 --> 00:21:28.514 Afraid to give away the secret sauce and give away maybe that blueprint, 00:21:28.754 --> 00:21:31.544 because they're also trying to approach that like they don't want to tell other 00:21:31.544 --> 00:21:34.454 people that there's a lot of opportunity in the upper markets of WordPress. 00:21:34.604 --> 00:21:37.304 You also have to deliver and be able to, to. 00:21:37.374 --> 00:21:40.924 to, to, package and present yourself where, an enterprise 00:21:40.964 --> 00:21:42.024 is going to say yes to you. 00:21:42.064 --> 00:21:44.204 Like in that example, where they might be spending half a million 00:21:44.204 --> 00:21:47.124 bucks, maybe somebody comes in and goes, I can do it for free. 00:21:47.124 --> 00:21:50.274 And they go, no, please, there's no, there's no time for that here. 00:21:50.474 --> 00:21:50.684 Right. 00:21:50.684 --> 00:21:51.744 And bigger business. 00:21:51.744 --> 00:21:54.354 I was just having this conversation with Mark Szymanski on, one of the recent 00:21:54.354 --> 00:21:59.354 episodes is what once a, a, a big corp, enterprise client says yes to WordPress, 00:21:59.584 --> 00:22:01.314 that's an investment for many years. 00:22:01.624 --> 00:22:01.824 Right. 00:22:01.824 --> 00:22:02.234 So it doesn't always. 00:22:02.234 --> 00:22:03.064 It's always, I think. 00:22:03.489 --> 00:22:07.059 The service provider in the WordPress space who's just learning 00:22:07.059 --> 00:22:09.249 these new levels of, of, client. 00:22:09.949 --> 00:22:11.579 You know, don't undercut yourself. 00:22:11.579 --> 00:22:15.139 Don't undersell yourself because there's a lot here. 00:22:15.199 --> 00:22:18.819 You might be thinking, Oh, the software is free, but managing and 00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:21.839 working with these clients is going to be a whole different ball game. 00:22:22.539 --> 00:22:26.669 Just to get through them to say yes and sign your contract is going 00:22:26.669 --> 00:22:29.539 to be an experience that you said, Oh, I should have added another 00:22:29.539 --> 00:22:31.939 zero to the end of this thing. 00:22:32.369 --> 00:22:33.479 kurt: the sales pipeline is 00:22:33.744 --> 00:22:34.954 Matt: Oh, absolutely. 00:22:35.044 --> 00:22:35.754 Absolutely. 00:22:36.064 --> 00:22:39.544 Do you have any, what is the experience when they say, Oh, you can 00:22:39.544 --> 00:22:41.414 do this stuff, but it's WordPress? 00:22:41.414 --> 00:22:45.944 Do you ever get that kickback where they go, Oh man, WordPress, but then you say, 00:22:45.944 --> 00:22:47.294 Well, I'm going to make it better for you. 00:22:47.294 --> 00:22:49.704 But is there an initial pushback on WordPress? 00:22:49.714 --> 00:22:50.674 Just the brand? 00:22:51.374 --> 00:22:52.954 kurt: I'm going to say five years ago. 00:22:52.984 --> 00:22:53.924 yeah, definitely. 00:22:53.989 --> 00:22:59.169 in 2024, not so much because now we're, now we're into pain point selling, right? 00:22:59.169 --> 00:23:01.149 We're, we're into what's your pain point. 00:23:01.249 --> 00:23:02.259 I can help fix that. 00:23:02.599 --> 00:23:06.529 You know, especially with COVID, a lot of these corporations were locked into 00:23:06.529 --> 00:23:09.899 these building deals and sent people to work from home and then they had these 00:23:09.899 --> 00:23:14.809 other expenses and, you know, in a lot of cases, Well, I worked at Suzuki and 00:23:14.809 --> 00:23:19.139 Suzuki right at the beginning of COVID had large layoffs, just huge layoffs. 00:23:19.459 --> 00:23:21.169 They closed the entire training division. 00:23:21.569 --> 00:23:25.259 You know, when you look at what some companies are having to make decisions 00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:30.169 with, when you can come in and say, Hey, for about 14 percent of what you're 00:23:30.179 --> 00:23:35.509 currently paying for your training tech, I can not only maintain it, but I can 00:23:35.509 --> 00:23:39.329 actually make it better, I can make it a better experience for your users. 00:23:39.639 --> 00:23:43.749 And if they give you any, you know, If they say, what's it on? 00:23:44.299 --> 00:23:47.459 And that conversation rarely comes up to be honest with you at the corporate level. 00:23:47.459 --> 00:23:49.139 They just want to know that the website works. 00:23:49.479 --> 00:23:54.039 But if they say on what platform and I say WordPress, if there's any backlash 00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:57.339 from that, it's gotten a lot easier when you say what was good enough for the 00:23:57.339 --> 00:23:58.959 White House, it was good enough for NASA. 00:23:59.644 --> 00:24:02.244 I'm pretty sure we can make, you know, your website work. 00:24:02.574 --> 00:24:06.284 And the thing to remember when I'm talking about enterprise e learning 00:24:06.284 --> 00:24:11.254 projects on SCORM, I'm not talking about millions of users and high bandwidth 00:24:11.254 --> 00:24:12.564 requirements and stuff like that. 00:24:12.874 --> 00:24:15.674 They typically have between one and 5, 000. 00:24:16.054 --> 00:24:20.064 Users and active users in a month might be four or 500 people. 00:24:20.414 --> 00:24:22.444 So I'm not dealing with huge, huge numbers. 00:24:22.444 --> 00:24:24.304 It's not like I'm running Facebook on WordPress. 00:24:25.004 --> 00:24:29.344 Matt: What, what are some use cases for these, these more enterprise types? 00:24:29.454 --> 00:24:34.034 Sales enablement comes to mind where there's a, there's a team 00:24:34.034 --> 00:24:37.814 that needs sales enablement training and education, typical onboarding, 00:24:37.824 --> 00:24:39.304 like, Hey, welcome to the company. 00:24:39.344 --> 00:24:39.594 Yeah. 00:24:39.594 --> 00:24:42.054 You know, take these five courses to learn what we do here. 00:24:42.734 --> 00:24:46.774 What are the samples of, of use cases that you've seen through your work? 00:24:47.474 --> 00:24:52.184 kurt: So my number one sales use case during COVID was exactly what you just 00:24:52.184 --> 00:24:56.394 said with the onboarding, because I would target companies and I would 00:24:56.394 --> 00:25:00.244 say, Hey, your ads are advertising that this is a remote position. 00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:01.959 How do you onboard people? 00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:04.589 And they would say, Oh, we bring them into the office for a week and blah, blah. 00:25:04.589 --> 00:25:07.269 But I said, so you hire someone for a remote position. 00:25:07.269 --> 00:25:09.569 And the first thing you do is bring them to the office for a week. 00:25:10.269 --> 00:25:11.899 It's probably not a good optic. 00:25:12.399 --> 00:25:15.129 What if we could take all that, make it digital, and you could do all 00:25:15.129 --> 00:25:18.359 that stuff through zoom and digital signatures and offer it through a 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:20.389 course and lesson structure better yet. 00:25:20.389 --> 00:25:23.779 What if I could put those zoom calls and embed those zoom calls into your course 00:25:23.779 --> 00:25:27.699 and lesson structure so that you keep everything organized and recorded properly 00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:29.329 and they're like, you can do that. 00:25:29.339 --> 00:25:30.149 And I go, yeah. 00:25:30.354 --> 00:25:34.894 And then when you say that's 15 grand or 18 grand or 50 grand, it's still 00:25:34.894 --> 00:25:39.114 a bargain compared to what their it department was paying before they met you. 00:25:39.814 --> 00:25:42.874 And that's the other thing to remember is that the numbers, the number, 00:25:42.874 --> 00:25:46.154 never be afraid of sharing the number, whatever the number is, you throw it 00:25:46.154 --> 00:25:48.594 out there because it is what it is. 00:25:48.714 --> 00:25:51.934 And, and amazingly, it's been pretty successful. 00:25:52.264 --> 00:25:55.764 The, the higher the number, the less aggravation I seem to 00:25:55.764 --> 00:25:56.854 have with the client as well. 00:25:57.329 --> 00:25:59.099 Matt: You might have a different answer, but I, I. 00:25:59.649 --> 00:26:04.419 I would imagine that it's less, this is going to be funny, but it might be less 00:26:04.419 --> 00:26:06.079 painful on the design side of things. 00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:10.479 Like when I was in the business, I was just largely selling marketing sites 00:26:10.789 --> 00:26:17.384 and it was just like, Oh, that shade of blue is not what, Can we look at 00:26:17.384 --> 00:26:21.144 many shades of blue and I'm like, Oh God, why do I keep doing this business? 00:26:21.844 --> 00:26:25.524 I would imagine building out these structural applications for 00:26:25.524 --> 00:26:29.624 people is a lot less painful on that side of things or maybe not. 00:26:30.324 --> 00:26:34.394 kurt: The better the enterprise is, I shouldn't say better. 00:26:34.714 --> 00:26:39.594 The more developed the enterprise is, the better the experience for the 00:26:39.594 --> 00:26:42.484 agency, meaning they have a style guide. 00:26:42.564 --> 00:26:43.804 They've got a branding guide. 00:26:44.294 --> 00:26:46.654 So I go to them and I say, you have a marketing department? 00:26:46.654 --> 00:26:47.234 They say, yes. 00:26:47.254 --> 00:26:48.264 I go, excellent. 00:26:48.584 --> 00:26:50.794 Send me a copy of your style and your branding guides. 00:26:50.814 --> 00:26:52.914 I want to make sure that what we create for you meets your style 00:26:52.914 --> 00:26:54.914 and branding guides and that your marketing department is going to be 00:26:54.944 --> 00:26:56.924 happy with what we develop for you. 00:26:57.384 --> 00:27:01.544 And then they're like, Oh, and then when they learn, cause remember most companies 00:27:01.544 --> 00:27:07.394 have A training site or an HR site and a sales site and a CRM site and a, and a, 00:27:07.404 --> 00:27:12.964 and a, and when you start to develop your LMS product, and then you start to say, 00:27:13.264 --> 00:27:16.434 Hey, this is an LMS, but it's also a CMS. 00:27:16.784 --> 00:27:20.364 And if you want to surround your learning, your learning channel with 00:27:20.364 --> 00:27:23.474 some of your marketing messaging or some of your sales pages or some of 00:27:23.474 --> 00:27:26.774 your landing pages, well, then you can start to see some of those windows in 00:27:26.774 --> 00:27:29.774 their brains open up and they go, wait a minute, we could do everything on this. 00:27:30.474 --> 00:27:31.874 Well, yeah, we're a full service agency. 00:27:31.874 --> 00:27:34.234 We can fill all the, we can fill all the blanks. 00:27:34.544 --> 00:27:36.614 My main focus was on getting your learning stuff up. 00:27:37.084 --> 00:27:39.834 And then we found that, this is Chris Badgett's line, by the way. 00:27:39.834 --> 00:27:40.854 I'm stealing from Chris. 00:27:41.134 --> 00:27:43.944 He says, Oh dude, I just love the way you land and expand. 00:27:44.644 --> 00:27:45.724 Matt: Does he say it in that voice? 00:27:46.424 --> 00:27:48.434 kurt: He doesn't say in that voice, that voice is kind of creepy. 00:27:48.434 --> 00:27:51.134 You know, Chris is much less creepy, but he says, I just love 00:27:51.134 --> 00:27:52.314 the way you land and expand. 00:27:52.734 --> 00:27:53.254 but that's it. 00:27:53.254 --> 00:27:55.834 It's it's, you know, see a need, fill a need, right? 00:27:55.834 --> 00:27:59.984 That's the thing with sales and just have a good relationship and provide value. 00:28:00.179 --> 00:28:01.439 Matt: Solution based selling. 00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:02.849 there's a lot of folks. 00:28:03.549 --> 00:28:06.619 that get into, into their WordPress services. 00:28:06.979 --> 00:28:11.319 Then they start building those, those websites and they really start to dislike 00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.359 that experience and they give up, right? 00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:15.639 It was just so stressful. 00:28:15.639 --> 00:28:20.049 They've, they've said, I, I started my web, my WordPress web agency because 00:28:20.049 --> 00:28:22.249 I didn't want a full time job and now I have this full time job and I 00:28:22.249 --> 00:28:23.169 don't like dealing with these clients. 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:24.924 This is why I like this. 00:28:25.344 --> 00:28:28.064 Like the agency structure you've built, the model you've built, 00:28:28.364 --> 00:28:30.674 because it's, it takes away or it can. 00:28:30.684 --> 00:28:33.594 I mean, it obviously depends on who you are and what you want to do, but when 00:28:33.594 --> 00:28:38.894 you're excited about solving problems with WordPress, it doesn't always have 00:28:38.894 --> 00:28:40.924 to be, let me make you a brochure site. 00:28:41.624 --> 00:28:43.874 It can be a Lifter LMS site. 00:28:43.964 --> 00:28:45.094 It can be e learning. 00:28:45.104 --> 00:28:48.254 And I talk about this all the time with my work at Gravity Forms. 00:28:48.504 --> 00:28:49.934 Gravity Forms allows you to do that too. 00:28:49.944 --> 00:28:53.974 You start selling, the ability to connect to different add ons that we have. 00:28:53.974 --> 00:28:55.334 And it just ranks you up. 00:28:55.334 --> 00:28:58.104 Like you, one day you're selling a website to somebody because you 00:28:58.114 --> 00:28:59.564 have a great MailChimp add on. 00:28:59.774 --> 00:29:02.004 And then the next day you're like, Oh, there's a HubSpot add on. 00:29:02.004 --> 00:29:05.064 And now I'm in this whole other echelon of, Of customers that I'm 00:29:05.064 --> 00:29:07.844 servicing because of gravity forms of this add on, et cetera, et cetera, 00:29:08.084 --> 00:29:11.984 solution based selling fantastic for the WordPress freelancer who's like, 00:29:12.474 --> 00:29:16.194 I'm not happy with where I'm at and I can build up this other solution. 00:29:16.194 --> 00:29:17.894 So kudos to you for, for finding 00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:22.339 kurt: Well, one of the most important things, distinctions and what you 00:29:22.339 --> 00:29:27.239 just said is the difference between a freelancer and an agency and I was a 00:29:27.239 --> 00:29:32.209 freelancer for the longest time and I was contracting with lifter and WP tonic 00:29:32.209 --> 00:29:35.179 and I was, you know, to your point, pumping out all these crazy hours. 00:29:35.179 --> 00:29:37.279 I would say yes to these projects and I thought we're going to be 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.469 easy and then they all expanded or scope creep or something. 00:29:40.829 --> 00:29:40.889 yeah. 00:29:41.289 --> 00:29:44.129 And then I realized what were my strengths in the corporate world. 00:29:44.229 --> 00:29:46.189 I was a really good project manager. 00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:50.499 I was a really good, I was really good at, at identifying people's 00:29:50.499 --> 00:29:53.359 skill sets and putting them to work on what they did best. 00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:57.249 And that's when I realized, Hey, just cause I'm working out of my home. 00:29:57.779 --> 00:30:01.269 Doesn't mean I can't leverage the skills and talents of other team members. 00:30:01.609 --> 00:30:05.309 And then I started adding to the team and I started networking with other people 00:30:05.309 --> 00:30:07.049 in the WordPress space in the community. 00:30:07.489 --> 00:30:07.809 Right. 00:30:07.809 --> 00:30:10.099 So me and Michelle Frechette, so like she actually referred 00:30:10.099 --> 00:30:11.259 me for a talk that I got. 00:30:11.579 --> 00:30:15.739 I mean, it's like, there's so many people, positive people in the 00:30:15.739 --> 00:30:17.259 space that you can connect to. 00:30:17.669 --> 00:30:19.569 And it everyone assumes it has to be for money. 00:30:19.569 --> 00:30:20.379 It's not for money. 00:30:20.389 --> 00:30:22.829 It's about making that connection. 00:30:23.159 --> 00:30:23.969 Who's good at what? 00:30:23.969 --> 00:30:26.089 Who's best at this thing or that thing? 00:30:26.389 --> 00:30:29.329 And there's been a lot of work that's come in through money on the no mosque that 00:30:29.329 --> 00:30:33.239 I've been able to farm out to other people through, you know, through post status 00:30:33.239 --> 00:30:35.099 and through the networking that we do. 00:30:35.539 --> 00:30:36.950 And, It's positive. 00:30:37.050 --> 00:30:38.600 It's positive net for everybody. 00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:39.710 Everybody gets the work. 00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:41.340 Everybody works in their strength zone. 00:30:41.590 --> 00:30:44.880 And in some cases, some of the profit sharing comes through 00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:46.440 money on an almost as an agency. 00:30:46.710 --> 00:30:49.510 And in other cases, it's just a referral, but I know that's going to come back 00:30:49.510 --> 00:30:50.930 to me tenfold for being the right guy. 00:30:50.930 --> 00:30:51.370 Anyway. 00:30:51.975 --> 00:30:55.365 Matt: Do you have a, a team at your agency or 00:30:56.065 --> 00:30:56.495 kurt: Yeah. 00:30:56.535 --> 00:30:59.975 So, I say this, I say this publicly a lot and I should probably stop 00:30:59.975 --> 00:31:03.565 saying it, but I'm, I consider myself graphically handicapped, Matt. 00:31:04.195 --> 00:31:05.395 I am not creative. 00:31:05.740 --> 00:31:06.010 Yeah. 00:31:06.010 --> 00:31:09.650 If someone, if someone gives me the style guide, gives me the branding 00:31:09.660 --> 00:31:13.070 guide, gives me a color palette, I will make you an amazing website. 00:31:13.490 --> 00:31:17.450 But if you come to me and go, Oh, we kind of got this idea for chicken sandwiches 00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:19.170 we're making on pretzel buns or whatever. 00:31:19.170 --> 00:31:22.990 And we, you know, we need you to come up with the logo and the, and the hero image. 00:31:22.990 --> 00:31:25.470 And I'm like, no, no. 00:31:25.470 --> 00:31:26.170 What you need is 00:31:26.420 --> 00:31:26.680 Matt: Yeah. 00:31:27.330 --> 00:31:29.070 kurt: Michelle's a graphic girl on my team. 00:31:29.080 --> 00:31:30.270 She is amazing. 00:31:30.570 --> 00:31:34.840 She's the only person I've met in my life where I can speak to her. 00:31:34.840 --> 00:31:34.880 Yeah. 00:31:35.235 --> 00:31:39.195 And the next day she'll show me a storyboard of what I said 00:31:39.570 --> 00:31:39.920 Matt: Hmm. 00:31:39.925 --> 00:31:41.745 kurt: I mean, she's just amazing. 00:31:41.745 --> 00:31:45.125 I've used her for curriculum development, you know, course development in the 00:31:45.125 --> 00:31:47.155 SCORM world and for marketing stuff. 00:31:47.175 --> 00:31:48.195 I've got another girl. 00:31:48.515 --> 00:31:49.885 I think she's up in Wisconsin. 00:31:50.245 --> 00:31:51.495 She is phenomenal. 00:31:51.535 --> 00:31:52.335 Young lady. 00:31:52.615 --> 00:31:54.045 I met her in the Marine industry. 00:31:54.075 --> 00:31:57.425 Turns out she did all the graphics for the Marine company I was contracted with. 00:31:57.875 --> 00:31:59.205 And I said, do you do side work? 00:31:59.205 --> 00:31:59.985 She said, yes. 00:31:59.995 --> 00:32:01.505 She's been a part of the team ever since. 00:32:02.205 --> 00:32:04.425 Yeah, and then I don't do a lot with code. 00:32:04.505 --> 00:32:08.505 I'm more of a plug and play kind of guy, so I've got a guy that I leverage 00:32:08.515 --> 00:32:12.585 for code work and customizations outside of my little home office 00:32:12.585 --> 00:32:12.855 here. 00:32:13.375 --> 00:32:16.705 Matt: there's, yeah, I mean, I think the whole, once again, like, this is 00:32:16.715 --> 00:32:21.420 really, should be eye opening to those who might be thinking about expanding 00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:25.450 their, you know, freelance work into an agency or refining the processes. 00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:30.570 Cause that was one of the most difficult things that I would run into at the 10 00:32:30.570 --> 00:32:33.680 years I ran the agency with my, with my father, agency still runs today. 00:32:33.760 --> 00:32:34.760 He runs it largely. 00:32:34.970 --> 00:32:37.560 He was in the auto, he grew up in the auto industry, owned 00:32:37.560 --> 00:32:39.030 the car dealerships and such. 00:32:39.300 --> 00:32:44.170 so there was always this natural, friction between he and I about like, 00:32:44.170 --> 00:32:48.110 you know, the things I wanted to like go after, which was what, you know, 00:32:48.600 --> 00:32:51.810 like a lot of us young foolish people at the time were thinking about like, 00:32:51.850 --> 00:32:53.130 I want to sell products too, man. 00:32:53.130 --> 00:32:54.500 I want to sell themes and plugins. 00:32:54.500 --> 00:32:56.850 I want to start a SAS business cause look at all these people 00:32:56.970 --> 00:32:58.210 starting a SAS business. 00:32:58.380 --> 00:32:59.150 Isn't it great? 00:32:59.410 --> 00:33:01.635 And he was just like, service work. 00:33:02.035 --> 00:33:06.045 There's, you know, the, the, the folks that can change the oils and then there's 00:33:06.055 --> 00:33:09.095 the, you know, the head technician and the head technician builds the 00:33:09.095 --> 00:33:11.095 custom site and priced at one point. 00:33:11.115 --> 00:33:13.665 And then there's the oil change type people who just put the sites 00:33:13.665 --> 00:33:15.365 together and keep them moving. 00:33:15.655 --> 00:33:19.705 And it was, it wasn't something that, I was truly interested in and of course 00:33:19.735 --> 00:33:23.155 agency life, you know, you're always like one paycheck away or one customer check 00:33:23.175 --> 00:33:27.485 away from bankruptcy When you're running like a custom agency So there was that 00:33:27.495 --> 00:33:31.955 like challenge of it plus having kids and like really, you know saying hey I just 00:33:31.955 --> 00:33:37.715 need to lower the stress level at home with kids But it's certainly like the 00:33:37.715 --> 00:33:39.835 no code tools where WordPress is headed. 00:33:39.855 --> 00:33:44.625 You don't need Custom coding for every, every solution and you don't need to 00:33:44.635 --> 00:33:46.925 have somebody on the, you know, I don't mean this in a bad way, but you don't 00:33:46.935 --> 00:33:51.505 always need to have like an expert engineer on the team for something 00:33:51.505 --> 00:33:52.965 that comes up 10 percent of the time. 00:33:53.105 --> 00:33:54.735 Maybe in customer engagements. 00:33:55.435 --> 00:33:57.315 kurt: Yeah, I would, I would go even further. 00:33:57.315 --> 00:33:59.225 It's for me and my agency. 00:33:59.225 --> 00:34:01.275 It's not even 10 percent of the time. 00:34:01.625 --> 00:34:03.965 There's so much out there that we can leverage. 00:34:04.225 --> 00:34:08.045 The hard part is staying educated on all of the different tools. 00:34:08.045 --> 00:34:08.875 What's a good tool? 00:34:08.875 --> 00:34:10.095 What's a tool to stay away from? 00:34:10.095 --> 00:34:11.425 What tools work good together? 00:34:11.735 --> 00:34:14.185 You know, I kind of have a dedicated tech stack that I'm 00:34:14.185 --> 00:34:15.755 familiar with that I'm happy with. 00:34:16.235 --> 00:34:20.195 and I think that that is a big key to what we what we do. 00:34:20.585 --> 00:34:24.555 The other thing is, When I'm talking to a client, for some reason, a lot 00:34:24.555 --> 00:34:27.365 of clients just come to the game, assuming that they need some kind 00:34:27.365 --> 00:34:29.815 of customization or they need this. 00:34:29.845 --> 00:34:30.935 They need that. 00:34:31.285 --> 00:34:35.295 And one of the best words I've learned, and that, that might be from 00:34:35.295 --> 00:34:37.655 Emily Middleton is just asking why. 00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:40.600 You just ask the client, why do you think you need that? 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:45.320 And they'll come up with something, but it's like, maybe we should just launch a 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.890 minimal viable product first, you know, do, do a proof of concept, make sure 00:34:49.890 --> 00:34:53.870 that your idea has traction, and then we can invest in your customizations 00:34:53.870 --> 00:34:55.190 and your dreams down the road. 00:34:55.500 --> 00:34:59.680 But, you know, for a lot of folks, what they're saying is a need at the beginning 00:34:59.680 --> 00:35:02.080 of a project is far from being a need. 00:35:02.275 --> 00:35:02.905 It's a distant 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:03.930 Matt: yeah, yeah. 00:35:04.490 --> 00:35:09.090 Is the is the world of, In your agency world, it is getting leads 00:35:09.130 --> 00:35:11.250 and showcasing what you can do. 00:35:11.250 --> 00:35:13.400 Is it done through the, through an LMS? 00:35:13.410 --> 00:35:14.620 Like, are you selling a course? 00:35:14.620 --> 00:35:17.270 And people are going, aha, this guy knows how to do a course. 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:20.670 Therefore I will want to hire him versus looking at a pretty 00:35:20.670 --> 00:35:22.260 portfolio of a graphic designer. 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:23.440 kurt: Yeah. 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:28.540 So for me, if my target is that SCORM client, that enterprise SCORM client, 00:35:29.030 --> 00:35:31.360 I do have a course, on SCORMpress. 00:35:31.390 --> 00:35:32.690 com and MananaNomas. 00:35:32.690 --> 00:35:37.390 com that, tells people how to put SCORM into their WordPress website. 00:35:37.930 --> 00:35:42.540 And so, so I have that, but Lifter LMS also asked me to make a very 00:35:42.540 --> 00:35:46.060 similar course and you can take that for free right at Lifter LMS. 00:35:46.760 --> 00:35:49.960 Honestly, I don't care if people take the free course or they come and buy the 00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:54.430 course from Manana Nomas, because I'm the author and the deliverer of the content. 00:35:54.580 --> 00:35:56.400 So that drives people to me anyway. 00:35:56.750 --> 00:36:00.060 You know, in a lot of cases, they'll see the content at Lifter LMS and 00:36:00.060 --> 00:36:01.230 they'll go, who's this Kurt guy. 00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:04.920 And if you Google Manana Nomas, you're going to see 68 pages 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:05.700 of Google stuff on there. 00:36:05.830 --> 00:36:07.040 Come up for money on a little mass. 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:08.540 There's just a ton of content. 00:36:08.890 --> 00:36:12.880 So I really don't worry about how the net works. 00:36:12.930 --> 00:36:15.860 I just worry that the net does work and funnels people to me. 00:36:16.300 --> 00:36:16.690 Right. 00:36:17.010 --> 00:36:20.480 the other thing is I just get as much exposure as I possibly can. 00:36:20.550 --> 00:36:22.600 You know, I, I'm talking to you today. 00:36:22.600 --> 00:36:24.540 I'll be talking to Jonathan on Thursday. 00:36:24.790 --> 00:36:26.690 work with Lifter LMS every Thursday. 00:36:26.970 --> 00:36:30.570 and people are starting to get to know me and it's Matt. 00:36:30.570 --> 00:36:34.850 I've only been connected in the community for four or five years. 00:36:35.445 --> 00:36:37.985 I mean, my first WordCamp was the one in San Diego. 00:36:38.685 --> 00:36:38.955 Matt: Yeah. 00:36:39.460 --> 00:36:41.240 kurt: So that was two years ago, three years ago, 00:36:41.295 --> 00:36:43.015 Matt: three years ago, I think. 00:36:43.100 --> 00:36:43.910 kurt: three years ago. 00:36:44.250 --> 00:36:44.470 Yeah. 00:36:44.470 --> 00:36:47.080 So that was my first WordCamp and I loved it so much that I 00:36:47.080 --> 00:36:48.860 started going to WordPress meetups. 00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:52.050 I didn't even know what a WordPress meetup really was before I went to WordCamp. 00:36:52.750 --> 00:36:54.510 I mean, I was in WordPress. 00:36:54.945 --> 00:36:57.955 For what, 15 years before I realized, Oh, there's a whole 00:36:57.975 --> 00:36:59.575 community out here to support us. 00:37:00.175 --> 00:37:03.215 And I think that's true for a lot of agencies and freelancers. 00:37:03.215 --> 00:37:07.585 I think so many don't get plugged in and the opportunity when 00:37:07.585 --> 00:37:11.015 you plug in is so, so large. 00:37:11.530 --> 00:37:13.340 You actually regret that you didn't do it earlier. 00:37:13.680 --> 00:37:17.770 to the point that I actually run, Pippin Williamson lives in my town. 00:37:17.770 --> 00:37:18.840 I just moved to Kansas. 00:37:19.250 --> 00:37:22.810 And so Pippin has a brewery here in town and I told him I wanted 00:37:22.810 --> 00:37:25.890 to do the WordPress meetup for Hutchinson, Hutchinson, Kansas. 00:37:26.240 --> 00:37:28.050 And he goes, Oh dude, if they give it to you, you could 00:37:28.050 --> 00:37:29.380 just use my brewery for that. 00:37:29.790 --> 00:37:34.810 So second Tuesday of every month, I'm at Pippin's brewery down at Sandhills 00:37:34.830 --> 00:37:36.570 drinking IPA and talking WordPress. 00:37:36.970 --> 00:37:39.880 Matt: That's instant, you know, instant audience built in. 00:37:40.580 --> 00:37:44.860 kurt: Yeah, yeah, but it's just get plugged in, get connected, 00:37:44.870 --> 00:37:46.370 meet as many people as you can. 00:37:46.790 --> 00:37:52.710 And if you have an agency that has a product that's unique, like my SCORM 00:37:52.740 --> 00:37:57.280 content, that's fairly unique or LMS work that's fairly unique in the space. 00:37:57.610 --> 00:38:00.050 it's that'll net people in that'll drive people to you. 00:38:00.050 --> 00:38:03.250 And as an agency, I mean, I don't know what other people are trying to do. 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.560 I mean, I see all kinds of weird things on post status health. 00:38:06.105 --> 00:38:07.635 People talk about their successes. 00:38:07.965 --> 00:38:10.655 in reality, I only need five or six clients a month. 00:38:11.275 --> 00:38:13.985 You know, I'm not looking to do hundreds of people a month. 00:38:14.300 --> 00:38:14.640 Matt: Yeah. 00:38:14.980 --> 00:38:19.110 wrapping up, I want to, I want to get your thoughts on AI, 00:38:19.250 --> 00:38:21.190 especially in the LMS space. 00:38:21.660 --> 00:38:25.490 half of me is like, you know, and I know Chris is, Chris Badgett 00:38:25.520 --> 00:38:29.420 is, A proponent on AI, or at least it seems that way on Twitter. 00:38:29.420 --> 00:38:31.980 I'm still very skeptical of it. 00:38:31.990 --> 00:38:34.690 I'm curious on how this whole thing plays out. 00:38:35.040 --> 00:38:38.930 Half of me is thinking, Oh God, I could use AI and build a whole course. 00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:41.590 The other half of me, like that's the evil side. 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:44.920 The angel side is saying, you don't know anything about that course. 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:45.440 Don't do it. 00:38:45.790 --> 00:38:50.100 Like AI will tell you and you don't really like, do you really know this content that 00:38:50.100 --> 00:38:52.090 you really passionate about this stuff? 00:38:52.100 --> 00:38:54.895 And I'm worried that, there are people who are like, Screw it. 00:38:54.935 --> 00:38:57.675 Like AI will print this whole course for me and I will just put 00:38:57.675 --> 00:38:59.105 it out there and people will come. 00:38:59.565 --> 00:39:03.225 that's the way that I kind of like see the impact of how AI is working right now. 00:39:03.255 --> 00:39:04.435 What are your thoughts on AI? 00:39:04.445 --> 00:39:05.865 How it impacts e learning? 00:39:06.085 --> 00:39:08.435 Do you have, you know, worries like I do on this stuff? 00:39:09.135 --> 00:39:13.955 kurt: Well, disclaimer, I use AI tools for certain things. 00:39:14.415 --> 00:39:18.125 So for, because what I'm about to say is going to sound like I'm a hypocrite. 00:39:18.565 --> 00:39:20.155 I use AI tools for certain things. 00:39:20.565 --> 00:39:25.445 The thing that I've noticed with AI is you have to, and people aren't going 00:39:25.445 --> 00:39:29.785 to agree with this, Matt, but to me, you, you have to recognize that these 00:39:29.785 --> 00:39:34.245 systems are biased in certain ways and that you have to recognize that 00:39:34.255 --> 00:39:37.045 bias, absorb that bias, and then. 00:39:37.310 --> 00:39:40.250 You know, adjust, adjust the rudder accordingly. 00:39:40.600 --> 00:39:45.660 So, I can remember when open AI first came out, chat GPT, I immediately 00:39:45.660 --> 00:39:46.990 jumped in, I was so excited. 00:39:47.300 --> 00:39:48.930 I'm an early adopter of a lot of things. 00:39:49.220 --> 00:39:51.920 And so I jumped in and I was like, Oh, let's ask it about this topic. 00:39:51.930 --> 00:39:54.180 And it said, I can't answer that question that way. 00:39:54.450 --> 00:39:56.660 And then I would ask it from another perspective and it's, Oh, here's 00:39:56.660 --> 00:39:58.010 an encyclopedia worth of stuff. 00:39:58.350 --> 00:40:00.140 And I was like, so it won't answer. 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:04.460 Questions from one angle, but I'll answer all the questions from a separate angle. 00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:06.570 I said, that's definitely a piece of bias. 00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:11.440 And then when people started saying that AI was going to train on stuff that's 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:15.240 available on the net, and then we were publishing content now at an exponential 00:40:15.240 --> 00:40:20.420 rate, that's AI generated and it keeps generating content eventually based on 00:40:20.420 --> 00:40:25.620 its own content, when, how much further until none of that content is really true. 00:40:26.260 --> 00:40:29.000 Like, I really worry because it's, there's a lot of hallucinations and all these 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:35.050 things that they talk about with AI and I go, so when I use AI, I only use AI 00:40:35.050 --> 00:40:38.770 on things that I consider myself to be knowledgeable, almost a quasi expert 00:40:38.790 --> 00:40:42.810 in, I use it to like, maybe make the outline. 00:40:43.470 --> 00:40:48.420 Maybe expand the outline and then I proof it, adjust it and edit it from there. 00:40:48.810 --> 00:40:51.870 often there are mistakes or there's verbiage or there's 00:40:51.870 --> 00:40:53.560 words I would not have selected. 00:40:54.010 --> 00:40:58.920 and it also writes at a grade level that's usually outside my scope of influence. 00:40:59.380 --> 00:41:04.480 So a lot of times I have to adjust the wording so that it meets. 00:41:05.180 --> 00:41:07.430 My projected audience at their grade level for 00:41:07.490 --> 00:41:07.770 Matt: Yeah. 00:41:08.470 --> 00:41:10.330 kurt: So there's a lot of work to do with AI. 00:41:10.350 --> 00:41:11.730 Like people go, Oh, it's so easy. 00:41:11.730 --> 00:41:12.750 Just plug it in and go. 00:41:13.010 --> 00:41:16.130 And it's like, no, that's not, it's not really how you use it. 00:41:16.160 --> 00:41:18.380 It's a great tool and it can save you time. 00:41:18.920 --> 00:41:22.990 But if you really use it correctly, you're going to come out with a superior product. 00:41:23.470 --> 00:41:25.130 But it's going to take almost as much time. 00:41:25.830 --> 00:41:26.450 Matt: Yeah, I agree. 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:27.270 I agree. 00:41:27.830 --> 00:41:28.860 Kurt, thanks for hanging out today. 00:41:28.860 --> 00:41:31.260 Where do you want folks to go to say thanks? 00:41:31.260 --> 00:41:31.350 Thanks. 00:41:32.050 --> 00:41:33.460 kurt: Well, manana nomas. 00:41:33.470 --> 00:41:36.240 com is where I want everybody to go and visit sooner or later. 00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:37.410 That's the website for us. 00:41:37.410 --> 00:41:38.490 Manana nomas. 00:41:38.510 --> 00:41:38.880 com. 00:41:39.240 --> 00:41:39.900 That's like tomorrow. 00:41:39.900 --> 00:41:40.360 No more. 00:41:40.610 --> 00:41:42.530 it's because I believe we should get everything done yesterday. 00:41:42.850 --> 00:41:45.450 but if it's on a personal thing and you just want to connect, I'm the 00:41:45.490 --> 00:41:47.220 only Kurt Von Ahnen on LinkedIn. 00:41:47.220 --> 00:41:51.040 It makes me super easy to find, Kurt Von Ahnen, LinkedIn, hit the 00:41:51.040 --> 00:41:54.830 connection button to connect and, we'll connect, maybe have a conversation.