1 00:00:00,230 --> 00:00:02,349 Welcome back to the episode of the Startup Therapy podcast. 2 00:00:02,349 --> 00:00:04,500 This is Ryan Rutan, joined as always by my friend, 3 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:07,650 the founder and CEO of Startups.com, Will Schroeder. 4 00:00:08,189 --> 00:00:12,199 Will, I don't think founders ever lie to anybody as much 5 00:00:12,279 --> 00:00:13,529 as they lie to themselves. 6 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,670 We tell the world- That's a great opener. 7 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:21,149 ... we're building to change everything, but I feel like most 8 00:00:21,149 --> 00:00:24,809 of us are really building to fix something that's been following 9 00:00:24,809 --> 00:00:26,260 us around since we were a kid. 10 00:00:26,319 --> 00:00:31,350 Will, w- why is it so damn hard for founders to admit 11 00:00:31,350 --> 00:00:35,189 their real why, and what happens when they finally do? 12 00:00:35,639 --> 00:00:37,209 I think we all know it, and I think a lot of people are 13 00:00:37,209 --> 00:00:40,500 kind of f- frankly afraid to, to admit it, and l- actually, 14 00:00:41,130 --> 00:00:42,229 to admit it to themselves. 15 00:00:42,490 --> 00:00:42,639 Yeah. 16 00:00:42,639 --> 00:00:42,900 Okay? 17 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:42,970 So- 18 00:00:42,970 --> 00:00:44,099 Themselves, exactly that. 19 00:00:44,750 --> 00:00:45,069 You're right. 20 00:00:45,069 --> 00:00:47,009 Here's what we tend to say, and we s- I mean, we've had these 21 00:00:47,009 --> 00:00:48,720 conversations a million times. 22 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:49,389 Here's what we tend to say. 23 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:51,770 We talk to a founder and we say, "Hey, what are you 24 00:00:51,770 --> 00:00:52,810 trying to build?" They're like, "Well, I'm trying to 25 00:00:52,810 --> 00:00:54,220 build this thing that'll change the world." Mm-hmm. 26 00:00:54,220 --> 00:00:54,950 And I'm like, "Cool." Yeah. 27 00:00:55,110 --> 00:00:57,110 "That's wonderful, but why?" Right? 28 00:00:57,290 --> 00:00:59,419 "Oh, because I think, you know, th- this problem should exi- 29 00:00:59,419 --> 00:01:01,970 " No, no, no, no, that's, that's, that's why the problem exists. 30 00:01:02,110 --> 00:01:02,310 Uh-huh. 31 00:01:02,340 --> 00:01:03,569 Why do you wanna build it? 32 00:01:03,569 --> 00:01:03,759 You. 33 00:01:03,790 --> 00:01:06,089 But, like- Yep ... what is it about this that if the 34 00:01:06,089 --> 00:01:10,080 company was one person big, 100 people big, or 1,000 35 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,370 people big would change you? 36 00:01:12,699 --> 00:01:14,819 Like- Yes ... like, w- where are you in this equation? 37 00:01:14,849 --> 00:01:15,010 Right. 38 00:01:15,010 --> 00:01:15,209 Right? 39 00:01:16,029 --> 00:01:18,870 And nine times out of 10, they're like, "I 40 00:01:18,870 --> 00:01:20,199 don't... Huh?" Right? 41 00:01:20,199 --> 00:01:20,440 Yeah. 42 00:01:20,669 --> 00:01:21,580 Like, "W- what do you mean?" 43 00:01:21,930 --> 00:01:25,199 And I say, "Look, man. All of us are building something 44 00:01:25,199 --> 00:01:27,680 in life, whether it's our business, our family, you know, 45 00:01:27,730 --> 00:01:31,419 everything, in order to fulfill something inside of us." Yeah. 46 00:01:31,730 --> 00:01:34,900 "But most of us have no idea what that thing actually 47 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:37,040 is, whether it's a demon, a void, or, you know, some 48 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,089 combination thereof. So we kind of blindly build-" Yeah 49 00:01:41,089 --> 00:01:44,330 toward a thing in order to like, like, fill that void, et cetera, 50 00:01:44,330 --> 00:01:47,940 or, or satisfy that need without ever defining what it is." Yeah. 51 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:49,220 And that's a huge problem. 52 00:01:49,269 --> 00:01:49,589 It's a 53 00:01:49,589 --> 00:01:50,110 huge problem. 54 00:01:50,110 --> 00:01:51,900 Because you're usually wildly miscalibrated. 55 00:01:52,309 --> 00:01:52,849 Yeah, man. 56 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,370 The public why is marketing, right? 57 00:01:55,370 --> 00:01:56,449 The private why- Yeah. 58 00:01:56,449 --> 00:01:58,680 Yeah ... is, is motive, right? 59 00:01:58,680 --> 00:01:58,750 Yeah. 60 00:01:58,750 --> 00:02:01,550 And if you don't know the motive, it's kinda tough to 61 00:02:01,550 --> 00:02:02,930 steer the machine, right? 62 00:02:03,260 --> 00:02:05,839 The, uh- Yep ... change the world, to me, that's 63 00:02:05,839 --> 00:02:06,769 the wrapper, right? 64 00:02:06,769 --> 00:02:07,470 It's not the product. 65 00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:07,599 Yep. 66 00:02:08,229 --> 00:02:08,300 Yep. 67 00:02:08,300 --> 00:02:10,699 The product is some version of, like, safety, 68 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:13,759 validation, freedom, revenge- Yep ... belonging. 69 00:02:13,759 --> 00:02:14,300 Yep, rev- yeah. 70 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:14,679 Right? 71 00:02:14,679 --> 00:02:15,580 Some, some- Revenge is a good one 72 00:02:15,580 --> 00:02:17,229 healing of deep inner wound. 73 00:02:17,229 --> 00:02:18,630 Insert inner wound here. 74 00:02:18,630 --> 00:02:18,720 Yep. 75 00:02:18,789 --> 00:02:20,759 You got your internal why. 76 00:02:21,490 --> 00:02:24,240 I, I saw a great quote, still call it Twitter, from, uh, 77 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,270 a while back from somebody, and they said something to 78 00:02:26,270 --> 00:02:28,919 the effect of, "A founder who wants to change the world is 79 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,259 exciting, but a founder who wants revenge is unstoppable." 80 00:02:32,339 --> 00:02:32,770 Yes. 81 00:02:33,110 --> 00:02:33,360 Right? 82 00:02:33,429 --> 00:02:34,210 So accurate. 83 00:02:34,210 --> 00:02:34,479 So 84 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:34,929 I'm like, 85 00:02:34,929 --> 00:02:35,589 " Hell yeah. 86 00:02:35,869 --> 00:02:36,949 Hell yeah." Absolutely. 87 00:02:36,949 --> 00:02:37,039 Right? 88 00:02:37,270 --> 00:02:40,520 And what we're talking about is the, the pure- 89 00:02:40,999 --> 00:02:44,560 unfiltered emotion that makes you do what you do. 90 00:02:44,830 --> 00:02:45,250 Yes. 91 00:02:45,690 --> 00:02:45,750 Right? 92 00:02:45,750 --> 00:02:48,389 And again, without getting, like, too Freudian about 93 00:02:48,389 --> 00:02:50,859 it, that's kind of what the... I gu- hell, dude, our 94 00:02:51,130 --> 00:02:52,239 podcast is Startup Therapy. 95 00:02:52,239 --> 00:02:52,319 Yeah, yeah. 96 00:02:52,319 --> 00:02:53,670 I guess we will get Freudian about it, right? 97 00:02:53,670 --> 00:02:53,769 Yes. 98 00:02:53,769 --> 00:02:55,069 Let's, I was gonna say- Um- Let's go, let's 99 00:02:55,069 --> 00:02:55,760 get Freudian about it. 100 00:02:55,849 --> 00:02:56,180 Yes. 101 00:02:56,679 --> 00:02:57,640 Let's get on the couch, right? 102 00:02:58,009 --> 00:03:02,599 We all have specific reasons why we act the way we act. 103 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:03,880 Nothing comes from nowhere. 104 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,259 I always tell my wife this, 'cause when she talks about, 105 00:03:06,259 --> 00:03:10,429 like, how our kids are behaving, I said, "Listen, our son or 106 00:03:10,429 --> 00:03:12,849 our daughter does not act the way they act out of nowhere." 107 00:03:12,849 --> 00:03:12,939 Right. 108 00:03:12,969 --> 00:03:14,579 "It comes from somewhere. 109 00:03:14,579 --> 00:03:17,169 There's a root cause to that behavior"- Yes ... "and 110 00:03:17,169 --> 00:03:19,289 we have to figure it out." It's a combination- And 111 00:03:19,289 --> 00:03:20,579 by the way, it's, it's usually us. 112 00:03:21,410 --> 00:03:21,820 Yeah. 113 00:03:21,849 --> 00:03:22,789 We are the root cause. 114 00:03:22,789 --> 00:03:23,500 We're, we're the parents. 115 00:03:23,500 --> 00:03:23,640 I'm sure of it. 116 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:23,840 I'm sure of it. 117 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:24,250 Like, where, where else does it 118 00:03:24,250 --> 00:03:24,480 come from? 119 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:24,759 Yeah, yeah. 120 00:03:25,250 --> 00:03:27,960 And, and that's fine, but, like, but we have to know what it is. 121 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:29,939 But here's what happens when you don't. 122 00:03:29,989 --> 00:03:31,879 This is what kind of gets re- really interesting to me. 123 00:03:32,329 --> 00:03:34,829 When you don't know what it is, you start making 124 00:03:34,829 --> 00:03:37,590 all of these decisions, again, miscalibrated, right? 125 00:03:37,759 --> 00:03:39,550 Again, you're like, "Hey, I wanna build a huge company." 126 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:42,070 A- actually, no, I'll, I'll, I'll be personal about it. 127 00:03:42,129 --> 00:03:44,279 Like, why do I wanna build a company? 128 00:03:44,279 --> 00:03:45,959 Why do I wanna be in en- entrepreneurship? 129 00:03:46,209 --> 00:03:49,840 Because I'm terrified of not being safe, right? 130 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:50,020 Yeah. 131 00:03:50,050 --> 00:03:51,689 Which is ironic- Yeah ... 'cause I picked, like, the most 132 00:03:51,740 --> 00:03:53,219 unsafe career path you could. 133 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:54,120 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 134 00:03:54,340 --> 00:03:56,569 But the reason for it, again, all this stuff comes from 135 00:03:56,569 --> 00:03:59,639 somewhere, is 'cause as a kid I didn't have any safety. 136 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:01,630 And by way of that, I didn't have any control. 137 00:04:02,009 --> 00:04:02,209 Right. 138 00:04:02,209 --> 00:04:06,530 So I looked at entrepreneurship as something I could control. 139 00:04:06,939 --> 00:04:08,740 When I say control, doesn't mean it's always gonna go 140 00:04:08,740 --> 00:04:10,630 well, but it was up to me. 141 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:11,100 Yeah. 142 00:04:11,209 --> 00:04:11,399 Right? 143 00:04:11,399 --> 00:04:12,740 And that's- Yeah ... all I cared about. 144 00:04:13,039 --> 00:04:14,770 Doesn't go well, it's at your hand, right? 145 00:04:14,770 --> 00:04:16,789 It wasn't somebody else making a decision of where 146 00:04:16,789 --> 00:04:18,270 you're gonna live, what you're gonna do, are you 147 00:04:18,270 --> 00:04:19,380 gonna eat dinner or not, yeah. 148 00:04:19,590 --> 00:04:20,450 Exactly, right? 149 00:04:20,499 --> 00:04:23,459 And so I looked at it as if I can control my 150 00:04:23,459 --> 00:04:26,100 own destiny, um, I don't care if it's good or bad. 151 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:27,969 I mean, ideally it's good, but, like, I don't care if 152 00:04:27,969 --> 00:04:30,569 it's good or bad, I care that it's mine, that it's in- Yeah 153 00:04:30,569 --> 00:04:33,370 ... within my control, because I grew up without control. 154 00:04:33,569 --> 00:04:33,630 Yeah. 155 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:35,969 A- and that was so deep in me. 156 00:04:36,550 --> 00:04:40,090 And even 50 plus years later, I don't feel any differently. 157 00:04:40,219 --> 00:04:43,069 Like, that same need has not changed. 158 00:04:43,615 --> 00:04:48,175 But if I map back every single one of my actions in 159 00:04:48,175 --> 00:04:50,704 life, like all the things I did with building companies, 160 00:04:50,704 --> 00:04:51,345 you know, blah, blah, blah. 161 00:04:51,345 --> 00:04:51,404 Yeah. 162 00:04:51,675 --> 00:04:53,255 It always maps back to that. 163 00:04:53,805 --> 00:04:54,104 Sure. 164 00:04:54,135 --> 00:04:55,414 Everything comes from somewhere. 165 00:04:55,845 --> 00:04:56,024 Yeah. 166 00:04:56,145 --> 00:04:58,045 We're, we're not just building a startup, right? 167 00:04:58,045 --> 00:05:00,614 We're, we're building a remedy, an antidote to- 168 00:05:00,614 --> 00:05:02,194 Perfect ... whatever happened in the past, and we need to- 169 00:05:02,194 --> 00:05:02,854 That's a good way to put it. 170 00:05:02,854 --> 00:05:05,395 Yeah ... a- and look, and naming it's super important, right? 171 00:05:05,395 --> 00:05:05,454 Yeah. 172 00:05:05,454 --> 00:05:06,954 Naming it's super important because if you 173 00:05:06,954 --> 00:05:10,534 don't name the real why, it's still gonna drive. 174 00:05:10,534 --> 00:05:10,625 Yep. 175 00:05:10,985 --> 00:05:13,725 It's just gonna drive from the trunk, whereas- Yep ... a lot 176 00:05:13,725 --> 00:05:15,354 less visibility and perspective. 177 00:05:15,395 --> 00:05:18,724 And look, investors aren't going to fund your inner story, right? 178 00:05:18,724 --> 00:05:19,604 That's not what they're there for. 179 00:05:19,604 --> 00:05:19,674 Yeah. 180 00:05:19,755 --> 00:05:20,014 Right. 181 00:05:20,375 --> 00:05:21,654 Uh, but your inner story- It's yourself. 182 00:05:21,654 --> 00:05:24,764 ... does drive the decisions that determine whether the 183 00:05:24,764 --> 00:05:25,834 company survives, right? 184 00:05:25,834 --> 00:05:28,244 As you said before, a founder out for revenge, 185 00:05:28,325 --> 00:05:29,625 unstoppable, right? 186 00:05:29,625 --> 00:05:29,965 Right. 187 00:05:29,965 --> 00:05:33,544 Because that's that inner story that's gonna drive them 188 00:05:33,544 --> 00:05:35,935 through all of the difficulty of building that company. 189 00:05:36,305 --> 00:05:36,575 Right. 190 00:05:36,575 --> 00:05:36,854 Right. 191 00:05:36,854 --> 00:05:39,465 And I, I think for a lot of us, you know, we look at it 192 00:05:39,494 --> 00:05:42,575 and we're like, "Oh," like, "I'm not insecure," or, you 193 00:05:42,575 --> 00:05:44,205 know, "Oh, I'm not trying to make up for, like, you know, 194 00:05:44,205 --> 00:05:45,415 being a dork in high school. 195 00:05:45,775 --> 00:05:49,584 I really care about this thing." I'm sure you do, but- 196 00:05:49,584 --> 00:05:51,565 It's funny that you brought up being a dork in high 197 00:05:51,565 --> 00:05:52,364 school, 'cause- Yeah. 198 00:05:52,364 --> 00:05:53,574 ... I wasn't. 199 00:05:54,565 --> 00:05:55,665 There's the Freudian slip. 200 00:05:55,665 --> 00:05:56,565 That's the tell right there. 201 00:05:56,565 --> 00:05:57,504 That's exactly what it is. 202 00:05:57,504 --> 00:05:57,684 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 203 00:05:57,684 --> 00:05:59,444 That thing that they tell you, it's not for this reason 204 00:05:59,444 --> 00:06:01,845 or for that reason, it's exactly for those reasons. 205 00:06:01,964 --> 00:06:02,864 Right, right, right, right. 206 00:06:03,144 --> 00:06:05,605 So all that said, I look at this, you know, when I, when 207 00:06:05,635 --> 00:06:08,324 I think about how people are making these decisions, but 208 00:06:08,324 --> 00:06:11,324 more so saying, "Here's what I'm trying to accomplish." 209 00:06:11,495 --> 00:06:11,665 Yeah. 210 00:06:11,915 --> 00:06:14,455 I think they're, without being intentional, they're 211 00:06:14,455 --> 00:06:15,334 disingenuous about it. 212 00:06:15,485 --> 00:06:19,184 I think that they look at this and they say, like I said, "I 213 00:06:19,184 --> 00:06:20,235 wanna build a big company." 214 00:06:20,535 --> 00:06:23,074 And it's like, if you could accomplish the same thing with 215 00:06:23,235 --> 00:06:25,404 two people and no one ever knew about it- Yeah ... would you 216 00:06:25,404 --> 00:06:26,635 still wanna build a big company? 217 00:06:26,845 --> 00:06:27,955 Like, maybe, right? 218 00:06:27,955 --> 00:06:29,654 And they're like, "Eh, maybe you're not solving the problem 219 00:06:29,654 --> 00:06:30,455 you think you're solving." 220 00:06:30,485 --> 00:06:30,894 Yeah. 221 00:06:30,925 --> 00:06:31,154 Right? 222 00:06:31,154 --> 00:06:31,495 Yeah. 223 00:06:31,644 --> 00:06:32,434 And that's dangerous. 224 00:06:32,665 --> 00:06:33,105 It is. 225 00:06:33,105 --> 00:06:36,105 I think it's, it's funny, but the modality is almost this 226 00:06:36,105 --> 00:06:38,495 foregone conclusion, which is, of course I must build big 227 00:06:38,495 --> 00:06:41,135 company because if it's big enough, then it will cover up 228 00:06:41,135 --> 00:06:43,794 whatever this hidden wound that I haven't even fully begun to 229 00:06:43,794 --> 00:06:45,154 understand in my, my own right. 230 00:06:45,644 --> 00:06:46,565 Sure, maybe. 231 00:06:46,595 --> 00:06:46,904 Yeah. 232 00:06:46,904 --> 00:06:50,205 But to your point, like, what's the less path of resistance 233 00:06:50,205 --> 00:06:51,714 to that same outcome, right? 234 00:06:51,714 --> 00:06:54,264 Do we have to take- Yeah ... the most difficult way at this? 235 00:06:54,264 --> 00:06:56,675 Does it have to be that big or could it be a 236 00:06:56,675 --> 00:06:58,035 medium or a small company? 237 00:06:58,695 --> 00:07:00,535 Well- Well- ... you said something important there 238 00:07:00,535 --> 00:07:03,304 though, which is that they're not being disingenuous. 239 00:07:03,835 --> 00:07:05,524 They're just not being fully honest with themselves, and 240 00:07:05,524 --> 00:07:09,645 therefore it becomes difficult to be honest externally and, and 241 00:07:09,645 --> 00:07:10,664 to talk to people about this. 242 00:07:11,354 --> 00:07:13,365 I've got a couple ideas of my own here, but what, what are 243 00:07:13,365 --> 00:07:18,235 the most common moments that you see where the founder's why, I'm 244 00:07:18,235 --> 00:07:19,824 gonna call it, leaks out, right? 245 00:07:19,824 --> 00:07:23,595 Where we start to see it escape, uh, the, uh, the, 246 00:07:23,595 --> 00:07:26,324 the sarcophagus and, and, and come to life and go, "Hey, 247 00:07:26,324 --> 00:07:28,285 this is why you're actually here." What are those moments? 248 00:07:28,285 --> 00:07:31,225 Is it fundraising, some sort of conflict, burnout? 249 00:07:31,225 --> 00:07:33,925 Where, where did these things actually start to seep through? 250 00:07:34,164 --> 00:07:35,625 You know, you and I have done episodes on this. 251 00:07:35,684 --> 00:07:37,085 It's when people sell the company. 252 00:07:37,294 --> 00:07:37,324 Oh. 253 00:07:37,554 --> 00:07:40,335 And you have that certain moment where they're no longer needed. 254 00:07:40,824 --> 00:07:43,014 All of us at some level need to be needed. 255 00:07:43,459 --> 00:07:43,710 Right? 256 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,649 So as the organization gets bigger and more reliant on 257 00:07:46,649 --> 00:07:48,410 us, on the one hand we're like, "Oh my God, this is 258 00:07:48,410 --> 00:07:50,819 such a crushing weight." But there's another part of us 259 00:07:50,819 --> 00:07:52,329 that appreciates being needed. 260 00:07:52,730 --> 00:07:54,869 We appreciate when people call on us and say, "Hey, 261 00:07:54,869 --> 00:07:57,510 we need your input. We need your d- direction. We need 262 00:07:57,510 --> 00:08:00,709 your decision." That is an incredibly validating feeling. 263 00:08:00,740 --> 00:08:00,800 Yeah. 264 00:08:00,910 --> 00:08:02,970 You know, for as much as- Yeah ... founders tend to write 265 00:08:02,970 --> 00:08:05,090 it off like, "Oh, I wish they didn't need me and could operate 266 00:08:05,090 --> 00:08:07,949 on their own." No, you wish they'd, like, you don't have 267 00:08:07,949 --> 00:08:10,429 to give them the information, but you want to be needed. 268 00:08:10,679 --> 00:08:13,420 You might not wanna go to the party, but you wanna be invited. 269 00:08:13,550 --> 00:08:13,750 Yeah. 270 00:08:13,929 --> 00:08:14,179 Right? 271 00:08:14,590 --> 00:08:18,149 And I remember, uh, early in my career when I was, uh, we had 272 00:08:18,149 --> 00:08:21,219 sold, uh, my, my agency, and I was basically cycling out of it. 273 00:08:21,759 --> 00:08:24,009 I remember going into a meeting with all of our senior 274 00:08:24,009 --> 00:08:26,969 staff, and everyone knew that I, like, 'cause it, the, 275 00:08:27,130 --> 00:08:28,119 the agency had been sold. 276 00:08:28,119 --> 00:08:29,340 Like, I, I was- Yeah ... gonna be gone. 277 00:08:29,739 --> 00:08:31,200 Everybody knew I was gonna be gone in, like, three months. 278 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:33,099 And I remember I walked into a meeting and I sat 279 00:08:33,099 --> 00:08:36,759 down, and our COO said to me, "Uh, what are you doing 280 00:08:36,759 --> 00:08:38,450 here?" And I'm like- Like, 281 00:08:38,590 --> 00:08:41,299 uh-oh ... "Huh? Great." Ouch. 282 00:08:42,189 --> 00:08:43,209 It's game day. 283 00:08:43,270 --> 00:08:45,399 Like, who, yeah, but why are you wearing a helmet? 284 00:08:45,570 --> 00:08:46,029 Yeah, yeah. 285 00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:48,060 She was being a matter of fact. 286 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:48,389 Yeah, 287 00:08:48,389 --> 00:08:48,480 yeah. 288 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:48,700 Right? 289 00:08:48,819 --> 00:08:50,560 Like, "Hey," like, "you, you don't need to be here." 290 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,420 And I remember, like, it hit me like a cannon. 291 00:08:53,889 --> 00:08:53,939 Mm-hmm. 292 00:08:53,939 --> 00:08:56,319 And I was like, "I'm not needed?" Right? 293 00:08:56,319 --> 00:08:58,329 Like, and, and to be fair, that was probably 294 00:08:58,329 --> 00:08:59,460 true two years prior. 295 00:08:59,999 --> 00:09:00,060 Yeah. 296 00:09:00,319 --> 00:09:01,960 I probably wasn't needed then, too. 297 00:09:02,389 --> 00:09:05,800 But that feeling that I wasn't needed w- was, was painful. 298 00:09:05,899 --> 00:09:06,179 Now- 299 00:09:06,179 --> 00:09:06,490 Sure 300 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,439 ... I'm not saying we have to, like, stitch this into every 301 00:09:09,439 --> 00:09:12,119 part of our day and every decision we have, but we kinda 302 00:09:12,119 --> 00:09:13,359 need to know what's happening. 303 00:09:13,689 --> 00:09:13,899 Yeah. 304 00:09:14,069 --> 00:09:18,179 Because whenever you see an extraordinary personality, 305 00:09:18,179 --> 00:09:20,100 extraordinary personality would be, like, Elon Musk today, 306 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:21,600 Steve Jobs back in the day- Yeah 307 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,929 literally every, uh, artist ever, that comes from a 308 00:09:24,929 --> 00:09:26,579 very specific place, right? 309 00:09:26,579 --> 00:09:26,670 Sure is. 310 00:09:26,670 --> 00:09:28,749 Steve Jobs didn't become Steve Jobs 'cause he's 311 00:09:28,749 --> 00:09:29,730 just a regular dude. 312 00:09:29,759 --> 00:09:29,819 Right. 313 00:09:29,950 --> 00:09:31,210 Nor did Elon Musk. 314 00:09:31,509 --> 00:09:35,340 It comes from a brutal history of, like, like, what's 315 00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:37,350 going through your head that you're trying to account for. 316 00:09:37,759 --> 00:09:40,280 And it allows you in many ways to do great things. 317 00:09:40,579 --> 00:09:43,719 You know, the artist's greatest pain becomes their greatest art- 318 00:09:43,780 --> 00:09:44,780 Yeah, yeah ... in, in many ways. 319 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:47,539 So this isn't me saying, like, pain is necessarily bad or, 320 00:09:47,539 --> 00:09:49,119 or insecurity is, are bad. 321 00:09:49,579 --> 00:09:51,359 It's let's know what they are. 322 00:09:51,430 --> 00:09:51,689 Yeah, yeah. 323 00:09:51,689 --> 00:09:53,309 Because they are gonna shape everything. 324 00:09:53,309 --> 00:09:53,559 Yes. 325 00:09:53,779 --> 00:09:53,900 Yeah. 326 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:54,150 Know, know your 327 00:09:54,150 --> 00:09:54,439 motivations. 328 00:09:54,439 --> 00:09:55,109 And it's, it's dangerous 329 00:09:55,109 --> 00:09:55,710 not to know that. 330 00:09:56,309 --> 00:09:56,439 Yeah. 331 00:09:56,439 --> 00:09:56,680 Yeah. 332 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:56,979 Yeah, yeah. 333 00:09:56,979 --> 00:09:57,130 Um, w- 334 00:09:57,350 --> 00:10:00,059 we- Yeah, well, I, I think you, you said it once, w- which was 335 00:10:00,059 --> 00:10:03,939 that these things essentially become your true North Star. 336 00:10:03,969 --> 00:10:04,010 Yeah. 337 00:10:04,199 --> 00:10:08,130 Whether it's conscious or not, these end up being that kind 338 00:10:08,210 --> 00:10:11,180 of guiding light, m- maybe more of a magnetic force, right? 339 00:10:11,270 --> 00:10:11,419 Yep. 340 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,650 Maybe it's the true magnetic north, uh, that 341 00:10:13,650 --> 00:10:14,699 we're pulled towards. 342 00:10:15,290 --> 00:10:16,050 Where does that come from? 343 00:10:16,439 --> 00:10:19,749 I think, like, at its core, you know, w- we all need some 344 00:10:19,749 --> 00:10:21,229 level of validation, right? 345 00:10:21,229 --> 00:10:23,770 So that's, that's one kind of big bucket, if we will, right? 346 00:10:23,770 --> 00:10:24,059 Sure. 347 00:10:24,270 --> 00:10:26,350 And, and I'm gonna go back to the you were the dork in 348 00:10:26,350 --> 00:10:27,660 high school type thing, right? 349 00:10:28,309 --> 00:10:31,020 There's no lack of founders out there, right, and, and 350 00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:34,689 whether they wanna admit it or not, that can't point back to 351 00:10:34,689 --> 00:10:38,529 high school and- Something in high school happened where, you 352 00:10:38,529 --> 00:10:40,720 know, they didn't get invited to prom or they didn't, you 353 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,170 know, they, they got laughed out of the locker room. 354 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:42,869 I don't know, right? 355 00:10:42,869 --> 00:10:44,949 You know, whatever your, your metaphor is, and they 356 00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:45,859 wanna make up for that. 357 00:10:46,079 --> 00:10:48,159 They wanna go back and show those people, and I'm 358 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:49,850 using high school as just like- Sure ... a metaphor. 359 00:10:50,190 --> 00:10:51,600 Show those people that they were wrong. 360 00:10:51,819 --> 00:10:54,149 Your parents leaned on you too hard and you wanna show them. 361 00:10:54,149 --> 00:10:55,920 You had a sibling that was always better than 362 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,790 you and you wanna show them, like, you name it. 363 00:10:58,129 --> 00:11:01,389 All of these things tend to, to develop, you know, what 364 00:11:01,389 --> 00:11:04,879 drives you and what motivates you beyond wanting to do 365 00:11:04,879 --> 00:11:05,950 great things in the world. 366 00:11:05,950 --> 00:11:08,579 And even sometimes wanting to do great things in the world come 367 00:11:08,579 --> 00:11:11,280 from somewhere very specific that you're trying to like, 368 00:11:11,309 --> 00:11:12,449 you know, map, make up for. 369 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,309 But I look at it and I'm like, "Okay, man. 370 00:11:15,949 --> 00:11:19,850 If your goal, if what you're trying to accomplish is 371 00:11:19,989 --> 00:11:23,600 validation, is recognition, is being seen in all these 372 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,309 things, there are a lot of ways to get there. 373 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,550 Let's map the best possible way to solve for that problem." 374 00:11:31,109 --> 00:11:31,339 Yeah. 375 00:11:31,609 --> 00:11:33,679 A- and know which one specifically it is, right? 376 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:34,929 Because you've- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... you've named off a 377 00:11:34,929 --> 00:11:35,670 whole bunch of things there. 378 00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:39,230 Safety and control, validation and status, autonomy. 379 00:11:39,230 --> 00:11:39,320 Yep. 380 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,920 You know, if you can't stand being managed, proving people 381 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,500 or silencing your critics, belonging, identity, you 382 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:45,600 know, we want to matter. 383 00:11:46,030 --> 00:11:48,869 Knowing which one of those things it is has a lot to 384 00:11:48,869 --> 00:11:52,540 do with being able to make sure that your strategy for 385 00:11:52,540 --> 00:11:54,680 how you grow that company, what you build, how you 386 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:57,189 grow it, and what money you take, who you choose to- Yep 387 00:11:57,189 --> 00:12:00,110 work with all becomes pretty damn important, right? 388 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:01,019 I agree. 389 00:12:01,070 --> 00:12:02,839 Uh, Ryan, when, when you think about it, w- 390 00:12:03,159 --> 00:12:03,960 what's your North Star? 391 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:05,309 My North Star. 392 00:12:05,610 --> 00:12:08,479 Look, uh, if... You mean the real one? 393 00:12:08,629 --> 00:12:10,030 The, the one I'm not allowed- Yeah, no ... to talk about? 394 00:12:10,030 --> 00:12:10,350 The, the fake one. 395 00:12:10,449 --> 00:12:10,640 Yeah. 396 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,150 Yeah, the, the, uh, the fake one is I wanna make 397 00:12:12,150 --> 00:12:12,799 a dent in the world. 398 00:12:12,799 --> 00:12:14,220 I wanna make my dent in the universe, Will. 399 00:12:14,220 --> 00:12:16,509 I just, you gotta figure out where the boundaries of 400 00:12:16,509 --> 00:12:18,019 the universe are so I know whether I'm denting it from 401 00:12:18,019 --> 00:12:18,920 the inside or the outside. 402 00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:24,389 Look, I, I think mine is probably a combination 403 00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:26,599 of, I think about the five core ingredients there. 404 00:12:27,130 --> 00:12:30,349 Autonomy, definitely a, a big part of it, right? 405 00:12:30,379 --> 00:12:30,969 It's, is a big one. 406 00:12:31,019 --> 00:12:31,210 What, what 407 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:31,849 pushes that though? 408 00:12:32,314 --> 00:12:36,235 I think that probably, like, a fairly controlled childhood. 409 00:12:36,275 --> 00:12:37,025 There was definitely that. 410 00:12:37,025 --> 00:12:38,915 And so the, this, it's all, it all goes back there, right? 411 00:12:38,915 --> 00:12:39,554 There were two things. 412 00:12:39,585 --> 00:12:39,645 Yeah. 413 00:12:39,645 --> 00:12:42,535 One, I mean, I've talked about this before, we were very much 414 00:12:42,535 --> 00:12:44,214 an achievement household, right? 415 00:12:44,245 --> 00:12:46,735 You know, there were lots of stories about, you know, my, 416 00:12:46,764 --> 00:12:50,144 my father's athletic escapades, the fact that, you know, he came 417 00:12:50,144 --> 00:12:51,594 from a single-parent household. 418 00:12:51,594 --> 00:12:52,914 Father died when he was quite young. 419 00:12:53,305 --> 00:12:54,924 Managed to put himself through university, put 420 00:12:54,924 --> 00:12:57,344 himself through medical school, uh, did all these 421 00:12:57,344 --> 00:12:59,615 amazing things, and achieved, and achieved, and achieved. 422 00:13:00,025 --> 00:13:01,914 There was very much a sense that that was, that was the 423 00:13:01,914 --> 00:13:02,705 track that I need to be on. 424 00:13:02,705 --> 00:13:05,995 And so, like, validation and status are definitely part 425 00:13:05,995 --> 00:13:07,214 of what drives it for me. 426 00:13:07,624 --> 00:13:11,304 But because autonomy was also a big part of it, right, not 427 00:13:11,304 --> 00:13:13,385 wanting to follow someone else's path, wanting to be 428 00:13:13,385 --> 00:13:16,414 able to say, "I did it my way," meant that the more 429 00:13:16,414 --> 00:13:19,214 traditional career path, like become doctor, right, become 430 00:13:19,214 --> 00:13:20,275 lawyer, become- Yeah, yeah 431 00:13:20,275 --> 00:13:21,545 wasn't gonna work, right? 432 00:13:21,545 --> 00:13:23,155 Because there wasn't enough autonomy in that. 433 00:13:23,225 --> 00:13:25,245 There was too many other, too many rule sets, too 434 00:13:25,245 --> 00:13:26,644 many other people telling me what I had to do. 435 00:13:27,034 --> 00:13:30,124 So I think for me, my north stars are some combination 436 00:13:30,124 --> 00:13:32,944 of the, the, the massive gravitational forces of 437 00:13:32,944 --> 00:13:34,335 validation and autonomy. 438 00:13:34,594 --> 00:13:35,094 What, what else? 439 00:13:35,094 --> 00:13:35,954 You said there were other buckets. 440 00:13:35,954 --> 00:13:36,485 I'm curious. 441 00:13:36,665 --> 00:13:37,964 For me in particular? 442 00:13:38,335 --> 00:13:41,905 You know, I think a big part of it was, um, the other... 'Cause 443 00:13:41,905 --> 00:13:44,045 I'm, I'm b- I'm just, I'm trying to remember how I labeled the, 444 00:13:44,045 --> 00:13:45,174 the ones that you listed off. 445 00:13:45,174 --> 00:13:46,945 It would be like the, well, a bit of the 446 00:13:46,945 --> 00:13:48,415 revenge narrative, right? 447 00:13:48,415 --> 00:13:51,024 So that, that proving and silencing the critics. 448 00:13:51,424 --> 00:13:52,454 As a, as a kid- It's a big 449 00:13:52,454 --> 00:13:52,615 part 450 00:13:52,615 --> 00:13:52,854 of being a 451 00:13:52,854 --> 00:13:53,244 founder. 452 00:13:53,814 --> 00:13:54,485 It is. 453 00:13:54,515 --> 00:13:56,024 It's a huge part- Yeah ... of it, and I think it's, it's 454 00:13:56,024 --> 00:13:57,564 one of those things that kind of sets you up for it. 455 00:13:57,805 --> 00:14:00,024 But I think in my case, it does. 456 00:14:00,024 --> 00:14:00,824 It goes back to childhood. 457 00:14:00,824 --> 00:14:03,384 There were a lot of people that, that doubted me or that 458 00:14:03,384 --> 00:14:05,744 wanted to look at me and go, "Oh, well, you're only that 459 00:14:05,744 --> 00:14:08,504 way because your, your father's a doctor," or whatever. 460 00:14:08,504 --> 00:14:10,695 And I was like, "Dude, I am the hardest-working 461 00:14:10,695 --> 00:14:12,265 kid." Like, I was called the little rich kid, right? 462 00:14:12,265 --> 00:14:14,024 Yeah, I was the hardest-working kid I knew. 463 00:14:14,365 --> 00:14:16,055 I was busting my ass on the farm. 464 00:14:16,055 --> 00:14:17,034 I was building stuff. 465 00:14:17,034 --> 00:14:19,865 I w- I was constantly doing something to prove 466 00:14:19,865 --> 00:14:21,634 them, them wrong in ways that they never saw. 467 00:14:21,634 --> 00:14:21,695 Sure. 468 00:14:21,695 --> 00:14:22,405 All right? 469 00:14:22,405 --> 00:14:24,384 So I was just the, uh, I was just the little, 470 00:14:24,415 --> 00:14:25,345 the little spoiled kid. 471 00:14:25,435 --> 00:14:26,485 I was anything but. 472 00:14:26,964 --> 00:14:28,104 And so I think that was part of it, too. 473 00:14:28,104 --> 00:14:30,924 It was sort of like, you know, "Well, I'll show you." I go back 474 00:14:30,924 --> 00:14:32,735 to that beautiful quote, right? 475 00:14:32,735 --> 00:14:34,534 This, this beautiful quote, and I've probably 476 00:14:34,534 --> 00:14:35,345 shared this before. 477 00:14:35,894 --> 00:14:38,845 I had overdone a project in high school 478 00:14:38,845 --> 00:14:41,024 significantly, significantly. 479 00:14:41,024 --> 00:14:41,084 Okay. 480 00:14:41,084 --> 00:14:42,765 And I was relatively new in high school at that point. 481 00:14:43,265 --> 00:14:45,974 I had overbuilt this little model by, like, 482 00:14:46,095 --> 00:14:47,485 I don't know, 30 hours. 483 00:14:47,524 --> 00:14:50,084 I spent a ton of time making this little panorama. 484 00:14:50,084 --> 00:14:50,854 It was beautiful. 485 00:14:51,485 --> 00:14:53,265 Everybody started making fun of this thing, 'cause some of 486 00:14:53,265 --> 00:14:55,985 them had, like, literally gone to the library and photocopied 487 00:14:55,985 --> 00:14:58,214 a, a piece of paper out of a book, and that was their, 488 00:14:58,244 --> 00:14:59,255 that was their presentation. 489 00:14:59,744 --> 00:15:00,895 So everybody was making fun of me. 490 00:15:00,925 --> 00:15:03,655 The teacher hears this as he walks in, and he stood 491 00:15:03,655 --> 00:15:05,265 outside and he listened to the narrative for a minute. 492 00:15:05,315 --> 00:15:07,925 And he walks in and he goes, "Go ahead, make fun of him. 493 00:15:08,345 --> 00:15:11,974 Laugh now while you can. When he's signing your paychecks-" 494 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:13,600 it won't be funny anymore. 495 00:15:14,079 --> 00:15:17,460 And I thought, like, that was such a beautifully validating, 496 00:15:17,460 --> 00:15:19,469 going back to validation, such a beautifully validating 497 00:15:19,469 --> 00:15:22,699 moment for me to say that like, look, putting in that extra 498 00:15:22,729 --> 00:15:25,510 effort, being autonomous and doing what I wanted to the way 499 00:15:25,510 --> 00:15:28,190 I wanted to was okay, right? 500 00:15:28,190 --> 00:15:29,930 Because up until that point, I'm not sure I'd heard that, 501 00:15:29,959 --> 00:15:32,940 and that was a really, really important moment in my life. 502 00:15:32,969 --> 00:15:33,969 Thanks, Mr. Adkins. 503 00:15:34,260 --> 00:15:34,799 You're the best. 504 00:15:35,270 --> 00:15:37,909 You know, something that's really funny about everything 505 00:15:37,909 --> 00:15:41,469 we talk about here is that none of it is new. 506 00:15:41,649 --> 00:15:44,119 Everything you're dealing with right now has been done a 507 00:15:44,119 --> 00:15:48,060 thousand times before you, which means the answer already exists. 508 00:15:48,060 --> 00:15:49,909 You may just not know it, but that's okay. 509 00:15:50,330 --> 00:15:52,029 That's kind of what we're here to do. 510 00:15:52,029 --> 00:15:54,729 We talk about this stuff on the show, but we actually 511 00:15:54,729 --> 00:15:58,990 solve these problems all day long at groups.startups.com. 512 00:15:58,990 --> 00:16:02,290 So if any of this sounds familiar, stop guessing 513 00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:03,279 about what to do. 514 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,630 Let us just give you the answers to the test and be done with it. 515 00:16:07,060 --> 00:16:09,220 I think it's fascinating, though, like again, 516 00:16:09,220 --> 00:16:10,950 I, I'm mentioning som- something like Steve Jobs. 517 00:16:11,009 --> 00:16:15,409 I remember, this is, I'm gonna date stamp it, like 2010. 518 00:16:15,409 --> 00:16:18,790 There used to be a, a media property called Valleywag, 519 00:16:19,029 --> 00:16:20,489 and it used to be like the TMZ- Oh, yeah ... of, 520 00:16:20,489 --> 00:16:21,629 of Silicon Valley, right? 521 00:16:21,669 --> 00:16:21,879 Yeah. 522 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:24,260 And so, and so there was a writer back then, 523 00:16:24,260 --> 00:16:27,029 uh, named Ryan Tate, and I'll never forget this. 524 00:16:27,419 --> 00:16:29,410 2010, 2011, it was r- right around then. 525 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:32,040 He gets into a spat with Steve Jobs. 526 00:16:32,434 --> 00:16:32,664 Right? 527 00:16:32,664 --> 00:16:32,835 Mm-hmm. 528 00:16:32,835 --> 00:16:35,164 He's criticizing, like, the iPad or something like that, right? 529 00:16:35,434 --> 00:16:35,654 Right. 530 00:16:35,785 --> 00:16:38,025 And Steve Jobs goes back to him and he goes, "Hey, what 531 00:16:38,025 --> 00:16:39,954 have you ever done? What have you ever built?" Mm-hmm. 532 00:16:39,954 --> 00:16:41,885 "First let's start with what you've built- Yeah 533 00:16:41,885 --> 00:16:43,805 and now let's talk about your criticisms." And, and what 534 00:16:43,805 --> 00:16:48,675 I loved about that, I loved that even Steve Jobs was still 535 00:16:48,675 --> 00:16:51,164 feeling that, like, like he was getting pushed into a locker. 536 00:16:51,195 --> 00:16:51,455 Yeah. 537 00:16:51,625 --> 00:16:51,845 Right? 538 00:16:51,845 --> 00:16:52,375 It hurt. 539 00:16:52,404 --> 00:16:52,935 It hurt. 540 00:16:52,974 --> 00:16:53,785 The, despite- It hurt, right? 541 00:16:53,785 --> 00:16:56,564 ... the absolute... And t- it's so funny because he literally 542 00:16:56,564 --> 00:16:59,564 in the next breath, like he's, he's telling you that hurt, in 543 00:16:59,564 --> 00:17:02,654 the next breath he's telling you why that person's opinion 544 00:17:02,654 --> 00:17:05,585 is completely irrelevant, and yet- That's my point 545 00:17:05,954 --> 00:17:07,485 and yet- Right ... it still hurt, right? 546 00:17:07,485 --> 00:17:08,395 It's so funny. 547 00:17:08,425 --> 00:17:09,765 So I wanna talk about that. 548 00:17:09,794 --> 00:17:12,445 I wanna talk about, like, let's say that Steve Jobs 549 00:17:12,445 --> 00:17:14,585 was, was guy that got pushed into the locker, right? 550 00:17:14,994 --> 00:17:17,305 And he wants to show the world that, you know, he's, 551 00:17:17,305 --> 00:17:19,105 he's bigger, smarter, you know, all these things. 552 00:17:19,314 --> 00:17:19,375 Yeah. 553 00:17:19,524 --> 00:17:20,145 Uh, which is fine. 554 00:17:20,145 --> 00:17:22,044 It's a perfectly understandable behavior. 555 00:17:22,044 --> 00:17:23,794 I'm not here to criticize that feeling. 556 00:17:24,114 --> 00:17:26,134 I'm here to, to explain it, right? 557 00:17:26,375 --> 00:17:26,645 Yeah. 558 00:17:26,645 --> 00:17:31,875 And in his mind, if he builds Apple, iPad, iPhone, uh, 559 00:17:31,875 --> 00:17:32,864 all these things, right? 560 00:17:33,314 --> 00:17:35,125 Then people won't be able to say these things 561 00:17:35,125 --> 00:17:36,254 to him anymore, right? 562 00:17:36,674 --> 00:17:40,144 And here this, you know, snarky Valleywag reporter, 563 00:17:40,385 --> 00:17:42,104 right, gets under his skin. 564 00:17:42,254 --> 00:17:43,324 Now here's why I say that. 565 00:17:43,824 --> 00:17:47,095 Truer words were never spoken by Jobs, right? 566 00:17:47,125 --> 00:17:47,305 Yeah. 567 00:17:47,474 --> 00:17:49,455 When he says, "What have you done?" 568 00:17:49,595 --> 00:17:49,875 Yeah. 569 00:17:49,904 --> 00:17:50,214 Right? 570 00:17:50,555 --> 00:17:51,945 That is exactly the right answer. 571 00:17:51,945 --> 00:17:52,015 It is. 572 00:17:52,065 --> 00:17:53,154 What have you done, dude? 573 00:17:53,184 --> 00:17:53,335 Yeah. 574 00:17:53,375 --> 00:17:54,974 You're talking to the guy that built Apple. 575 00:17:55,224 --> 00:17:55,515 Uh-huh. 576 00:17:55,904 --> 00:17:56,294 Fuck you. 577 00:17:56,835 --> 00:17:56,985 Yeah. 578 00:17:57,114 --> 00:17:58,394 Like, straight up, right? 579 00:17:58,445 --> 00:18:01,245 So w- when I say this, when people are like, "Hey, I have 580 00:18:01,245 --> 00:18:02,445 to build for the haters- Yeah 581 00:18:02,445 --> 00:18:04,544 I have to prove them wrong," pause. 582 00:18:04,875 --> 00:18:05,025 Yeah. 583 00:18:05,165 --> 00:18:08,815 Who are those people specifically, and what leg do 584 00:18:08,815 --> 00:18:12,345 they have to stand on to tell you who you are to begin with? 585 00:18:12,815 --> 00:18:12,995 Yeah. 586 00:18:13,025 --> 00:18:15,854 It took me a long time to figure that one out. 587 00:18:15,915 --> 00:18:15,974 Yeah. 588 00:18:15,974 --> 00:18:16,934 A long time. 589 00:18:17,329 --> 00:18:17,629 Right? 590 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,230 And I'm not sure I'm totally over it, but 591 00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:20,960 I know that- Criticism 592 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,269 still hurts, even, even when you know it's coming from a 593 00:18:23,269 --> 00:18:25,209 place of, of irrelevance, man. 594 00:18:25,209 --> 00:18:28,759 Like, uh, like, if it can still get to Steve Jobs, right? 595 00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:29,230 Yeah. 596 00:18:29,660 --> 00:18:30,040 Who's gonna be me? 597 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:30,589 That's my point. 598 00:18:30,589 --> 00:18:32,490 That guy could have literally been like, "You know the 599 00:18:32,660 --> 00:18:37,119 iPad and the iPhone and the iMac? I am the I in all of 600 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:38,330 those things, asshole." Yeah. 601 00:18:38,439 --> 00:18:41,090 "Who are you? Which part of Valley Wag? Are you the 602 00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:42,090 wag or are you the valley?" 603 00:18:42,090 --> 00:18:42,529 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 604 00:18:42,529 --> 00:18:42,930 Right. 605 00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:43,330 "Tell me." 606 00:18:43,719 --> 00:18:44,400 Unbelievable. 607 00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:47,650 The point though is that, like, that ego still fuels him, right? 608 00:18:47,650 --> 00:18:47,789 Yeah. 609 00:18:47,789 --> 00:18:50,119 And, and Jobs is, you know, famously an egomaniac, but- 610 00:18:50,220 --> 00:18:50,509 Yes 611 00:18:50,669 --> 00:18:53,610 ... I look at this a- and I think to myself, "What's the 612 00:18:53,610 --> 00:18:58,230 minimum viable product that we need, the path that we need 613 00:18:58,910 --> 00:19:00,340 to solve this ego problem?" 614 00:19:00,470 --> 00:19:00,590 Yeah. 615 00:19:00,590 --> 00:19:02,020 You know, minimum viable ego, right? 616 00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:02,610 There you go. 617 00:19:02,610 --> 00:19:06,989 Like, if my ego is that I feel like my parents always 618 00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:09,020 treated my, my sibling better than I did, and I 619 00:19:09,020 --> 00:19:10,290 have to show them, cool. 620 00:19:10,380 --> 00:19:10,759 That's fine. 621 00:19:10,759 --> 00:19:11,739 I don't care what it is, right? 622 00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:12,169 Yep. 623 00:19:12,549 --> 00:19:16,489 But let's be very deliberate about what path 624 00:19:16,489 --> 00:19:17,759 will solve that problem. 625 00:19:17,939 --> 00:19:18,200 Sure. 626 00:19:18,230 --> 00:19:18,540 Right? 627 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,359 And so I, I can tell you right now, it's, it's not 628 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:22,649 raising 200 million in VC. 629 00:19:22,649 --> 00:19:22,829 Right. 630 00:19:22,999 --> 00:19:23,600 Unless 631 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:24,689 Unless. 632 00:19:24,689 --> 00:19:24,749 Yeah. 633 00:19:25,219 --> 00:19:26,869 Unless your dad was Steve Jobs, right? 634 00:19:26,969 --> 00:19:27,200 Right. 635 00:19:27,369 --> 00:19:29,280 A- and, like, a- and you have to operate at that level. 636 00:19:29,310 --> 00:19:31,450 That's actually... Uh, just made me think about it. 637 00:19:31,829 --> 00:19:34,759 Early in my career when I was running the agency, I 638 00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:37,030 was very fortunate to have a great partner, a guy named 639 00:19:37,030 --> 00:19:38,140 Blaine, who you obviously know. 640 00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:38,689 Yeah, 641 00:19:38,689 --> 00:19:38,929 yeah. 642 00:19:38,929 --> 00:19:41,329 And the agency's doing phenomenally well, right? 643 00:19:41,329 --> 00:19:43,149 Like, we're making hundreds of millions of dollars. 644 00:19:43,439 --> 00:19:45,869 And, uh, Blaine, who was super young at the time, I 645 00:19:45,869 --> 00:19:49,480 think he was, like, 28, 29, was like, "Hey, that's great, 646 00:19:50,060 --> 00:19:53,039 but my dad, you know, started Cardinal Health," which is, 647 00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:54,829 like, what, like, the 15th largest company in the world or 648 00:19:54,829 --> 00:19:55,410 something like that- Oh, yeah 649 00:19:55,410 --> 00:19:56,289 in the, in the US, something like that. 650 00:19:56,289 --> 00:19:57,429 Like, Fortune 15 company. 651 00:19:57,429 --> 00:19:59,969 So, so we're basically a rounding error- Yeah, 652 00:19:59,969 --> 00:20:00,569 exactly ... at $100 million. 653 00:20:00,569 --> 00:20:00,910 Exactly. 654 00:20:00,910 --> 00:20:00,969 Yeah. 655 00:20:00,969 --> 00:20:03,950 So, so his threshold for what he had to get to was- 656 00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:05,810 Yep ... like, you know- Yep ... in the stratosphere. 657 00:20:06,410 --> 00:20:10,369 And it was interesting because I was like, "I don't think my dad 658 00:20:10,369 --> 00:20:11,969 made over $1,000 in a month." 659 00:20:12,530 --> 00:20:12,880 Right. 660 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:13,730 So, like- Yeah. 661 00:20:13,730 --> 00:20:15,649 So- ... my threshold of what I- Yeah ... needed to get over 662 00:20:15,649 --> 00:20:17,079 to satisfy that claim was very 663 00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:17,189 different. 664 00:20:17,189 --> 00:20:17,219 I, 665 00:20:17,219 --> 00:20:17,289 I have 666 00:20:17,289 --> 00:20:18,590 to clear so many bars. 667 00:20:20,069 --> 00:20:20,179 Right. 668 00:20:20,179 --> 00:20:20,619 Exactly. 669 00:20:20,619 --> 00:20:23,749 And so my point is everybody's got, like, a different threshold 670 00:20:23,810 --> 00:20:26,209 of what they- Sure ... think they need in order to clear. 671 00:20:26,730 --> 00:20:29,300 But what I always look at it and I say, "Let's get 672 00:20:29,330 --> 00:20:32,340 really specific about what your threshold needs to be." 673 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:32,450 What it is. 674 00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:32,649 Yeah, yeah. 675 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,509 'Cause I guarantee it ain't that high. 676 00:20:34,890 --> 00:20:35,149 Yep. 677 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,250 So I'm thinking, um, class of 2005 dork that got pushed 678 00:20:39,250 --> 00:20:41,310 into a, a locker and... I wish I was that young. 679 00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:44,209 I was gonna say, did, did we just get younger, Will? 680 00:20:44,399 --> 00:20:44,519 Yeah. 681 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,300 I think 20 years. 682 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:46,869 Nicerly done. 683 00:20:47,459 --> 00:20:49,339 And that's what I'm trying to like, like fight against. 684 00:20:49,339 --> 00:20:51,119 I, I gotta prove those haters wrong. 685 00:20:51,409 --> 00:20:53,329 Number one, you'll never prove them wrong, right? 686 00:20:53,329 --> 00:20:53,469 Right. 687 00:20:53,469 --> 00:20:55,619 It, actually, the Steve Jobs example, right? 688 00:20:55,989 --> 00:20:57,439 It- there are always gonna be haters. 689 00:20:57,439 --> 00:20:59,890 No matter what you do, those people were haters 690 00:20:59,890 --> 00:21:01,050 before you came around. 691 00:21:01,199 --> 00:21:01,260 Yeah. 692 00:21:01,319 --> 00:21:01,420 Yep. 693 00:21:01,420 --> 00:21:02,890 And they'll be haters long after you go around. 694 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,599 If, heaven forbid, today's your last day on Earth, it's 695 00:21:05,599 --> 00:21:07,640 not gonna change a thing about who those people are. 696 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:07,960 Correct. 697 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,040 So like, it's, it... Foolish to try. 698 00:21:09,599 --> 00:21:11,949 But the other side of it is, if really what you 699 00:21:11,949 --> 00:21:14,080 wanna do is prove to your old man that you can be 700 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,429 good enough, smart enough, et cetera- Yeah ... cool. 701 00:21:16,769 --> 00:21:18,499 What's the minimum that would take? 702 00:21:19,889 --> 00:21:20,690 Here's an example, right? 703 00:21:20,690 --> 00:21:21,249 Probably less than you think. 704 00:21:21,249 --> 00:21:21,510 Here's an example. 705 00:21:22,459 --> 00:21:26,690 If you had a business that was doing $5 million in revenue, on 706 00:21:26,850 --> 00:21:28,720 $2 million in net income- Yeah 707 00:21:28,929 --> 00:21:31,440 and you flew private, not all the time, but you, you know- 708 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:32,979 Right, but you can ... you could get your Marquis Jet 709 00:21:32,979 --> 00:21:34,519 Card or you know, whatever- Yep ... it was, right? 710 00:21:34,729 --> 00:21:36,310 Would that be more than your old man did? 711 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:36,720 Right? 712 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:37,209 Probably. 713 00:21:37,260 --> 00:21:38,670 Or depending on who your old man is, right? 714 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:39,100 Probably. 715 00:21:39,420 --> 00:21:40,429 Then just do that. 716 00:21:40,589 --> 00:21:40,690 Do that. 717 00:21:40,690 --> 00:21:40,749 Yeah. 718 00:21:40,749 --> 00:21:42,069 Dude, that's a consulting company. 719 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:42,600 Yep. 720 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:42,760 That's it. 721 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:42,949 Right? 722 00:21:42,949 --> 00:21:45,170 Like, like you don't need to raise 200 million in VC 723 00:21:45,170 --> 00:21:45,839 and go IPO- No, you do not. 724 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:46,850 You do not ... to get 725 00:21:46,850 --> 00:21:47,170 to that 726 00:21:47,170 --> 00:21:47,699 outcome. 727 00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:49,609 You don't need to build a rocket ship if all you're 728 00:21:49,609 --> 00:21:51,389 trying to do is cross the English Channel, right? 729 00:21:51,389 --> 00:21:52,620 You just need- That's what I'm saying, man ... a 730 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:53,150 speedboat, right? 731 00:21:53,150 --> 00:21:53,730 Just pick- 732 00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:54,359 That's what I'm saying. 733 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,389 You know, a lot of people, when they start a business, 734 00:21:56,389 --> 00:21:58,340 they're like, "My old boss was an asshole, I'm gonna, you 735 00:21:58,340 --> 00:21:59,760 know, prove to them," whatever. 736 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,849 Ironically, in many cases, that old boss- Yeah ... is 737 00:22:01,849 --> 00:22:02,679 probably you or I. 738 00:22:03,029 --> 00:22:03,679 Yep. 739 00:22:04,090 --> 00:22:05,319 And I get it, right? 740 00:22:05,349 --> 00:22:07,730 It's like, "I'm gonna show them that I've, I've 741 00:22:07,730 --> 00:22:09,540 done this thing." I, you know, I got a funny story. 742 00:22:09,879 --> 00:22:13,349 Years ago, this developer that worked for me, like 25 743 00:22:13,349 --> 00:22:15,900 years ago, maybe like 10 years ago, I saw him at a bar or 744 00:22:15,900 --> 00:22:16,940 something like that, right? 745 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,919 And he had built a new company, like a development 746 00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:20,889 shop- Mm ... and they're doing really well, right? 747 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,650 And he was like, "One day I knew we'd see each other again, 748 00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:27,220 and I needed to tell you, you know, that I would prove 749 00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:29,179 you wrong, that I did, you know, that I, I was able-" Oh 750 00:22:29,179 --> 00:22:30,120 "to do this," et cetera. 751 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:32,639 And I remember s- looking at him like, "What are 752 00:22:32,639 --> 00:22:33,970 you talking about?" Yeah. 753 00:22:33,999 --> 00:22:34,190 Right? 754 00:22:34,190 --> 00:22:36,370 'Cause he, this was like his moment to like- Uh-huh. 755 00:22:36,370 --> 00:22:39,340 Oh, God ... prove his old boss that he could really perform. 756 00:22:39,690 --> 00:22:40,370 And I was like- 757 00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:41,340 Talk about taking the wind out of his sails. 758 00:22:41,340 --> 00:22:44,419 He spent so much time hanging those sails, Will. 759 00:22:44,679 --> 00:22:45,050 Good Lord. 760 00:22:45,050 --> 00:22:45,429 I was 761 00:22:45,429 --> 00:22:48,770 like, "I would be the last person in the world- 762 00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:51,340 Yeah ... that would not wanna see you do that." Like, I 763 00:22:51,340 --> 00:22:53,520 would be... He was like, "No, you told me at the time it 764 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,750 could never be done." I'm like, "Dude, you fabricated 765 00:22:55,829 --> 00:22:57,120 all of that." Like, because- 766 00:22:57,579 --> 00:23:00,629 I'm glad I was the villain that drove you to s- your success, 767 00:23:00,679 --> 00:23:02,040 but, uh, I, I had no idea 768 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:02,429 it was- Yeah. 769 00:23:02,429 --> 00:23:02,500 Yeah. 770 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,110 I'm, I'm glad that you, you invented the evil version of me. 771 00:23:05,290 --> 00:23:09,135 Also, isn't it hysterical that like- So often when 772 00:23:09,135 --> 00:23:12,225 I see founders that are like, they've tried to 773 00:23:12,225 --> 00:23:13,245 prove they matter, right? 774 00:23:13,275 --> 00:23:13,335 Yeah. 775 00:23:13,594 --> 00:23:13,815 Yeah, yeah. 776 00:23:13,844 --> 00:23:16,655 Why do they pick the hardest possible way of doing it? 777 00:23:16,655 --> 00:23:19,185 It's like- That's what I'm saying ... like, there's 778 00:23:19,185 --> 00:23:21,725 so many other ways to have gotten around that, right? 779 00:23:21,725 --> 00:23:24,135 Like, maybe just a conversation with you 780 00:23:24,135 --> 00:23:25,174 probably would have done that. 781 00:23:25,174 --> 00:23:27,715 No, look, it- it's, he needed some motivation 782 00:23:27,824 --> 00:23:28,855 apparently, and so that's- Yeah 783 00:23:28,855 --> 00:23:30,465 ... that's- No, that's what it takes. 784 00:23:30,785 --> 00:23:31,004 Yeah. 785 00:23:31,035 --> 00:23:33,055 But, but I look at that and, and I think to myself, 786 00:23:33,355 --> 00:23:35,285 number one, I actually didn't feel that way, right? 787 00:23:35,285 --> 00:23:37,375 So like, uh- Yeah ... that was a false pr- premise. 788 00:23:37,605 --> 00:23:40,834 Number two, now that you know that you've done the 789 00:23:40,834 --> 00:23:42,015 thing, are you good now? 790 00:23:42,015 --> 00:23:42,075 Yeah. 791 00:23:42,285 --> 00:23:44,735 Because every single person I've ever met has not been. 792 00:23:45,114 --> 00:23:45,265 Uh-huh. 793 00:23:45,265 --> 00:23:47,195 It goes back to when we talk about founders who've, 794 00:23:47,195 --> 00:23:49,415 you know, finally sold or IPO'd or anything else like 795 00:23:49,415 --> 00:23:53,134 that, and they all think that it's that moment that's 796 00:23:53,134 --> 00:23:54,064 gonna change everything. 797 00:23:54,255 --> 00:23:56,924 Like, like, if I take company IPO, then I wasn't the kid 798 00:23:56,924 --> 00:23:57,915 that got pushed in the locker. 799 00:23:58,095 --> 00:23:58,285 No. 800 00:23:58,285 --> 00:23:58,415 Yeah. 801 00:23:58,415 --> 00:23:58,515 No. 802 00:23:58,774 --> 00:24:01,485 You took the company IPO and you were the kid that got- Yeah 803 00:24:01,485 --> 00:24:02,494 ... that got pushed in the locker. 804 00:24:02,494 --> 00:24:04,544 One doesn't like, you know, n- reset the other. 805 00:24:05,255 --> 00:24:06,814 And I look at that and, and I'm like- 806 00:24:07,044 --> 00:24:11,044 No matter how many zeros are behind the first digit 807 00:24:11,044 --> 00:24:14,284 in your exit number, that photo from middle school 808 00:24:14,284 --> 00:24:15,974 still exists somewhere. 809 00:24:16,004 --> 00:24:16,254 Yep. 810 00:24:16,345 --> 00:24:16,644 Right? 811 00:24:16,675 --> 00:24:17,284 Yeah, it does. 812 00:24:17,404 --> 00:24:18,665 It's not going away. 813 00:24:19,125 --> 00:24:20,964 I was talking to s- somebody the other day about this. 814 00:24:21,135 --> 00:24:23,084 I'm building this new house, and they're like, "Oh my God, you 815 00:24:23,084 --> 00:24:24,695 must be so proud of, you know, what you're building," stuff. 816 00:24:24,695 --> 00:24:28,044 I'm like, "I am, but like, I'm still price shopping 817 00:24:28,044 --> 00:24:30,574 the cost of the outlet covers that are going on- 818 00:24:30,644 --> 00:24:31,705 on every outlet," right? 819 00:24:31,834 --> 00:24:31,894 Yeah. 820 00:24:32,034 --> 00:24:35,175 "I'm gonna save exactly like $6, but like- Uh-huh ... hell, 821 00:24:35,175 --> 00:24:37,095 I'm gonna price shop all of those," right? 822 00:24:37,574 --> 00:24:39,735 And they said, "Why?" Like, you know, "You've got enough cash, 823 00:24:39,735 --> 00:24:40,625 like it doesn't matter." Mm-hmm. 824 00:24:40,625 --> 00:24:42,815 I was like, "Because I'm a poor kid that made money." Yeah. 825 00:24:43,084 --> 00:24:45,544 "But I'll always be the poor kid." I understand 826 00:24:45,544 --> 00:24:47,165 my DNA very well. 827 00:24:47,415 --> 00:24:47,565 Yeah. 828 00:24:47,604 --> 00:24:49,525 Doesn't mean I don't deal with it like everybody else. 829 00:24:49,584 --> 00:24:49,784 Uh-huh. 830 00:24:49,784 --> 00:24:51,305 But I definitely take account for it. 831 00:24:51,305 --> 00:24:52,214 But you, you recognize it. 832 00:24:52,214 --> 00:24:52,345 Right? 833 00:24:52,345 --> 00:24:52,544 Yeah. 834 00:24:52,754 --> 00:24:54,665 I recognize where these things come from. 835 00:24:55,364 --> 00:24:58,104 And when I rewind back and I look at earlier points in 836 00:24:58,104 --> 00:25:03,834 my career, it was hilarious how many of my decisions were 837 00:25:03,834 --> 00:25:07,125 driven by a version of me that didn't quite get it yet. 838 00:25:07,165 --> 00:25:07,224 Yeah. 839 00:25:07,404 --> 00:25:07,504 Right? 840 00:25:07,504 --> 00:25:07,595 Yep. 841 00:25:07,595 --> 00:25:09,334 That was me in the yellow Lamborghini, right? 842 00:25:09,334 --> 00:25:09,595 Right. 843 00:25:09,684 --> 00:25:12,184 It wasn't that I needed to get places faster, right? 844 00:25:12,184 --> 00:25:12,525 Right. 845 00:25:12,525 --> 00:25:14,415 That wasn't, that wasn't it, right? 846 00:25:14,824 --> 00:25:18,354 And what's funny is now that I don't have those same 847 00:25:18,354 --> 00:25:21,835 insecurities, the idea of owning a yellow Lamborghini 848 00:25:21,835 --> 00:25:23,765 makes absolutely no sense. 849 00:25:23,765 --> 00:25:23,994 It is funny. 850 00:25:23,994 --> 00:25:26,244 It, like, I almost look at it like in, like, 851 00:25:26,274 --> 00:25:27,255 what was I thinking? 852 00:25:27,444 --> 00:25:27,604 Yeah. 853 00:25:27,604 --> 00:25:27,854 Right? 854 00:25:28,044 --> 00:25:28,235 Yeah. 855 00:25:28,475 --> 00:25:30,804 Take the douchebaggery off the table for a second. 856 00:25:31,015 --> 00:25:31,164 Sure. 857 00:25:31,164 --> 00:25:33,214 I'm just looking at it now like, I own a pickup truck. 858 00:25:33,585 --> 00:25:33,934 Right. 859 00:25:34,524 --> 00:25:36,125 Because it's really practical. 860 00:25:36,404 --> 00:25:37,994 Well, that's not your best vehicle. 861 00:25:37,994 --> 00:25:40,524 Your best vehicle is by far the skid steer, right? 862 00:25:40,524 --> 00:25:42,714 The Bobcat is- But- ... by far the best vehicle that you own. 863 00:25:42,714 --> 00:25:42,994 That's even a 864 00:25:42,994 --> 00:25:43,154 level 865 00:25:43,154 --> 00:25:44,265 below- Like, that's my favorite ... in some 866 00:25:44,265 --> 00:25:44,785 way or level 867 00:25:44,785 --> 00:25:44,865 up. 868 00:25:44,865 --> 00:25:47,444 I wanna roll up to the club in that thing at some point. 869 00:25:47,444 --> 00:25:47,925 Yeah, right. 870 00:25:47,925 --> 00:25:48,194 Right. 871 00:25:48,235 --> 00:25:51,054 But I guess what I'm saying is, as we start to understand 872 00:25:51,054 --> 00:25:52,315 ourselves better, right? 873 00:25:52,315 --> 00:25:54,085 Like, as we understand where these motivations 874 00:25:54,085 --> 00:25:58,355 are coming from- It's incredible how different 875 00:25:58,425 --> 00:26:00,214 our journey becomes- Yes 876 00:26:00,214 --> 00:26:01,714 because we're solving for different things. 877 00:26:01,915 --> 00:26:02,014 Yeah. 878 00:26:02,014 --> 00:26:02,244 Right? 879 00:26:02,395 --> 00:26:05,264 I found, and I think a lot of people get here, I found that 880 00:26:05,294 --> 00:26:09,134 over time, the things that I'm, like, optimizing for have 881 00:26:09,134 --> 00:26:10,214 very little to do with wealth. 882 00:26:10,334 --> 00:26:12,735 It's how I spend my time, like, how I build my relationships, 883 00:26:12,735 --> 00:26:13,655 and everybody tells you that. 884 00:26:13,655 --> 00:26:13,854 That's 885 00:26:13,854 --> 00:26:14,405 it right there. 886 00:26:14,495 --> 00:26:15,065 Those two things. 887 00:26:15,065 --> 00:26:15,245 Yeah. 888 00:26:15,704 --> 00:26:15,835 Yeah. 889 00:26:15,835 --> 00:26:16,034 That's it. 890 00:26:16,255 --> 00:26:19,044 But that said, none of that stuff means shit until you've 891 00:26:19,044 --> 00:26:20,454 actually made some money, right? 892 00:26:20,454 --> 00:26:20,565 Yeah. 893 00:26:20,565 --> 00:26:23,024 Because until then- Yeah ... not having cash 894 00:26:23,024 --> 00:26:25,044 seems like the biggest problem, so all those things, 895 00:26:25,284 --> 00:26:25,925 you know, become a luxury. 896 00:26:25,925 --> 00:26:27,765 It is up to a point, and then, and then just isn't. 897 00:26:27,765 --> 00:26:29,815 I think we, we've talked about that before too, couple 898 00:26:29,815 --> 00:26:31,844 times on the podcast, where just, like, that number is not 899 00:26:31,844 --> 00:26:32,905 nearly as high as you think. 900 00:26:33,445 --> 00:26:36,274 But, but going back to this, the, the entire kind of 901 00:26:36,315 --> 00:26:37,815 minimum viable ego thing here. 902 00:26:37,975 --> 00:26:38,125 Yeah. 903 00:26:38,164 --> 00:26:40,155 I, I... In the way I think about, the goal isn't 904 00:26:40,155 --> 00:26:41,184 to eliminate the ego. 905 00:26:41,184 --> 00:26:42,605 We're not saying like, "Okay, you just almost- Yeah, right 906 00:26:42,605 --> 00:26:46,465 ... achieve ego death." The, the goal here is to, to right-size 907 00:26:46,504 --> 00:26:49,065 the plan to that motive, right? 908 00:26:49,065 --> 00:26:49,184 Yep. 909 00:26:49,184 --> 00:26:51,454 Whatever it is within the ego that's driving that. 910 00:26:51,484 --> 00:26:53,734 And so as we've been talking, as I was thinking of a couple 911 00:26:53,734 --> 00:26:56,285 of questions that I would, I would probably ask founders or 912 00:26:56,285 --> 00:27:00,125 myself, really try to get to the other side of this, which is, 913 00:27:00,125 --> 00:27:03,205 like, what am I trying to feel on the other side of success? 914 00:27:03,814 --> 00:27:03,924 Yeah. 915 00:27:03,924 --> 00:27:04,085 Right? 916 00:27:04,114 --> 00:27:06,055 Like, that, the un-dorking, right? 917 00:27:06,205 --> 00:27:08,354 Like- Yep ... what will actually make me not feel 918 00:27:08,354 --> 00:27:09,994 like the dork anymore, right? 919 00:27:09,994 --> 00:27:10,214 Right. 920 00:27:10,394 --> 00:27:13,485 Second, like, what's the smallest outcome that would 921 00:27:13,485 --> 00:27:15,155 genuinely satisfy that, right? 922 00:27:15,155 --> 00:27:15,714 To your point- 923 00:27:15,915 --> 00:27:16,055 Yep 924 00:27:16,244 --> 00:27:20,945 ... we don't need a $200 million raise from VC if what we need 925 00:27:20,945 --> 00:27:24,284 is a $5 million business with two million EBITDA and our 926 00:27:24,284 --> 00:27:25,814 Marquee Jet Card so we can make- 927 00:27:25,864 --> 00:27:27,225 Right, wh- which isn't a layup either. 928 00:27:27,225 --> 00:27:29,625 I, I don't wanna point that as th- like, that's a concession. 929 00:27:29,625 --> 00:27:31,754 Dude, if you get there, you're in the top 1% of people. 930 00:27:32,135 --> 00:27:34,975 Yes, but you're not in the top zero, zero, zero point, 931 00:27:34,975 --> 00:27:37,354 or .0001% of people, right? 932 00:27:37,394 --> 00:27:37,544 Yep. 933 00:27:37,835 --> 00:27:39,725 It, it's going back to, like, what, what path gets me there 934 00:27:39,725 --> 00:27:42,494 with the least risk, time, and self-destruction, right? 935 00:27:42,494 --> 00:27:43,254 I think is the other one. 936 00:27:43,254 --> 00:27:46,415 Because I watch so often, because founders don't 937 00:27:46,415 --> 00:27:49,915 acknowledge this ego that's driving from the trunk, that 938 00:27:50,044 --> 00:27:53,085 the self-destruction becomes a natural byproduct of that, and 939 00:27:53,085 --> 00:27:55,585 that's really, really hard to watch when you just understand. 940 00:27:55,585 --> 00:27:56,975 When you can see it from the outside, 'cause so very 941 00:27:56,975 --> 00:27:59,515 frequently you and I are talking to founders, and we can kinda 942 00:27:59,515 --> 00:28:02,335 see these motivations and go like, "This one's really got 943 00:28:02,335 --> 00:28:03,105 a chip on their shoulder. 944 00:28:03,105 --> 00:28:04,525 They've really got something to prove here." Yeah. 945 00:28:04,715 --> 00:28:07,105 And I hope they go prove it, but I don't wanna see them wreck 946 00:28:07,105 --> 00:28:08,945 themselves in, in the process. 947 00:28:09,295 --> 00:28:11,025 Do you know, Ryan, do you know that I've never 948 00:28:11,025 --> 00:28:11,945 seen anybody prove it? 949 00:28:12,545 --> 00:28:14,264 I mean, okay- Yeah ... you gotta understand, like, we're- 950 00:28:14,264 --> 00:28:15,814 Yeah ... in the business of seeing- In the business, yeah 951 00:28:15,814 --> 00:28:17,204 the most successful people become- Yes ... the 952 00:28:17,204 --> 00:28:18,154 most successful people. 953 00:28:18,374 --> 00:28:18,635 Yep. 954 00:28:18,685 --> 00:28:23,635 I have yet to see anybody at any level of success be like- 955 00:28:23,635 --> 00:28:24,864 Yeah ... "I'm good now." Right? 956 00:28:24,864 --> 00:28:25,045 Yeah. 957 00:28:25,045 --> 00:28:27,355 If anything, it actually made it worse. 958 00:28:27,795 --> 00:28:27,935 Right. 959 00:28:27,935 --> 00:28:31,435 Remember that quote from, uh, Chesky from Airbnb saying 960 00:28:31,435 --> 00:28:34,055 that, like, when he went public at Airbnb, it was, like, the 961 00:28:34,055 --> 00:28:35,445 loneliest, darkest- Oh, yes 962 00:28:35,445 --> 00:28:36,825 you know, moment of his life because- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... he 963 00:28:36,825 --> 00:28:38,545 thought that was gonna solve all these problems- Yep ... and 964 00:28:38,545 --> 00:28:41,234 it, like, it actually, it laid all the problems bare. 965 00:28:41,465 --> 00:28:41,665 Bare, 966 00:28:41,665 --> 00:28:41,764 yep. 967 00:28:41,764 --> 00:28:44,105 Because if, if you've checked all those boxes, and you've 968 00:28:44,105 --> 00:28:46,014 made all that money, or you've done whatever you said you're 969 00:28:46,014 --> 00:28:50,314 gonna do, and you still feel like crap, that makes it worse. 970 00:28:50,555 --> 00:28:52,704 Because now there's no s- there's no solve. 971 00:28:53,359 --> 00:28:53,560 Right? 972 00:28:53,589 --> 00:28:53,649 Yeah. 973 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,609 Like, you, you know, you're as- you assume that I don't 974 00:28:55,609 --> 00:28:59,300 have money, so if I have money, then these problems go away. 975 00:28:59,710 --> 00:28:59,820 Yeah. 976 00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:02,459 But all of a sudden you get the money and you still have 977 00:29:02,459 --> 00:29:05,299 the problems, and now you're like, "Shit, I actually can't 978 00:29:05,299 --> 00:29:06,030 get rid of these problems." 979 00:29:06,030 --> 00:29:06,089 Yeah. 980 00:29:06,089 --> 00:29:07,200 At least before you thought you might. 981 00:29:07,660 --> 00:29:07,990 Right. 982 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:08,259 Yeah. 983 00:29:08,259 --> 00:29:09,050 Before I see it- That's the thing. 984 00:29:09,079 --> 00:29:10,999 You get the hope of it, of it disappearing, and 985 00:29:10,999 --> 00:29:13,979 then when it doesn't, then desperation doesn't creep 986 00:29:13,979 --> 00:29:16,669 in, it comes, it comes crashing in big Pacific wave. 987 00:29:16,669 --> 00:29:16,729 You 988 00:29:16,729 --> 00:29:16,960 bet. 989 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,270 I see it in marriages all the time, right? 990 00:29:19,270 --> 00:29:19,370 Sure. 991 00:29:19,370 --> 00:29:20,950 I see it in marriages where there's, there's a lot of 992 00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:23,579 tension be- between the spouses because there's money 993 00:29:23,579 --> 00:29:24,370 problems and everything. 994 00:29:24,370 --> 00:29:25,589 And look, man- Yeah ... life's hard, right? 995 00:29:25,630 --> 00:29:25,990 I get it. 996 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:26,240 Yep. 997 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:27,999 And the idea is that if we had more money, the 998 00:29:27,999 --> 00:29:28,920 problems would go away. 999 00:29:29,069 --> 00:29:29,790 Don't get me wrong. 1000 00:29:29,790 --> 00:29:29,850 Yeah. 1001 00:29:29,889 --> 00:29:30,110 Right? 1002 00:29:30,110 --> 00:29:32,270 Like, while money doesn't solve every problems, 1003 00:29:32,529 --> 00:29:34,490 e- every problem, it sure does create plenty. 1004 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:35,029 Yeah. 1005 00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:36,760 Not having it creates a lot, right? 1006 00:29:36,929 --> 00:29:37,119 Yeah, yeah. 1007 00:29:37,150 --> 00:29:39,540 So I, I, I don't wanna take that off the table, but the idea 1008 00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:43,069 is that if we get the money, it'll solve all of our problems. 1009 00:29:43,130 --> 00:29:44,020 And it'll solve some of them. 1010 00:29:44,209 --> 00:29:44,249 Right. 1011 00:29:44,249 --> 00:29:45,619 It'll solve the ones that money can pay for. 1012 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,319 It won't solve any of the ones that money can't pay for. 1013 00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:47,479 Money 1014 00:29:47,479 --> 00:29:47,860 can't 1015 00:29:47,860 --> 00:29:48,049 pay for. 1016 00:29:48,049 --> 00:29:48,119 Yeah. 1017 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:48,249 Right? 1018 00:29:48,249 --> 00:29:50,130 Or like, "Hey, let's ha- let's have a kid and that'll bring us 1019 00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:51,549 closer together." No, it won't. 1020 00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:51,799 Yeah. 1021 00:29:51,959 --> 00:29:53,709 It's just gonna create a whole new problem set that you 1022 00:29:53,709 --> 00:29:54,799 didn't have five seconds ago. 1023 00:29:54,830 --> 00:29:54,970 Yeah. 1024 00:29:54,999 --> 00:29:55,319 Right? 1025 00:29:55,369 --> 00:29:55,429 Um- 1026 00:29:55,529 --> 00:29:55,720 Third 1027 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:56,409 person to argue 1028 00:29:56,409 --> 00:29:56,540 with. 1029 00:29:57,140 --> 00:29:59,200 No one's ever saved a marriage with a kid, right? 1030 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,740 S- And... But again, I look at that seeing, like, people 1031 00:30:02,810 --> 00:30:06,170 look at these external factors that can solve the things 1032 00:30:06,170 --> 00:30:07,060 that are personal to them. 1033 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:07,579 Yeah. 1034 00:30:07,770 --> 00:30:09,439 And it, like, kinda never works. 1035 00:30:10,140 --> 00:30:10,409 It doesn't. 1036 00:30:10,409 --> 00:30:12,469 And it's bananas to me to, to not take inventory of it. 1037 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:13,670 It's hard. 1038 00:30:13,869 --> 00:30:16,229 It's- Right ... hard work because it's 1039 00:30:16,229 --> 00:30:17,950 vulnerable work, right? 1040 00:30:17,950 --> 00:30:21,229 I think most of us, as founders, would rather just 1041 00:30:21,439 --> 00:30:24,299 continue to grind than to get honest- Yeah ... about 1042 00:30:24,299 --> 00:30:25,369 those things in particular. 1043 00:30:25,789 --> 00:30:29,689 But when you know what you're actually building for, I, I 1044 00:30:29,689 --> 00:30:33,609 think you stop wandering into the hardest possible version of 1045 00:30:33,609 --> 00:30:35,979 success, maybe that one that you don't actually need to achieve 1046 00:30:35,979 --> 00:30:39,079 to feel successful, and start building the right version 1047 00:30:39,079 --> 00:30:40,579 of success on purpose, right? 1048 00:30:40,579 --> 00:30:42,339 And, and the goal isn't to become- Imagine that 1049 00:30:42,339 --> 00:30:43,530 ... ego-less again, right? 1050 00:30:43,530 --> 00:30:45,030 It's to become- Yeah ... aligned. 1051 00:30:45,509 --> 00:30:47,960 You know, to me, the most unstoppable founders aren't 1052 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,409 the ones, you know, with just the, the biggest dreams, right? 1053 00:30:50,409 --> 00:30:51,399 We, we know that doesn't work. 1054 00:30:51,399 --> 00:30:53,159 It's, it's about the probability of it actually coming true. 1055 00:30:53,630 --> 00:30:56,930 It's people who are actually operating with some sense 1056 00:30:56,930 --> 00:30:59,339 of the truth behind what's driving them forward, right? 1057 00:30:59,339 --> 00:30:59,430 Yep. 1058 00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:00,779 They understand what fuels them. 1059 00:31:01,189 --> 00:31:02,990 They can harness that fuel and do something good with it. 1060 00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:03,579 Yeah. 1061 00:31:03,609 --> 00:31:06,559 I, I look at it, man, and I say, for me, at any point 1062 00:31:06,559 --> 00:31:09,510 in my life, whether I was making money or not, all 1063 00:31:09,510 --> 00:31:11,809 that mattered was my freedom and my autonomy and really- 1064 00:31:11,809 --> 00:31:14,279 Yeah ... my, my ability to control my own destiny, right? 1065 00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:14,350 Yeah. 1066 00:31:14,350 --> 00:31:14,710 That's it. 1067 00:31:14,710 --> 00:31:16,520 That's- That's it ... dude, that's all I cared about. 1068 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:16,710 Right. 1069 00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:18,260 To this day, it's still all I care about. 1070 00:31:18,329 --> 00:31:18,510 Yep. 1071 00:31:18,689 --> 00:31:20,290 If you were to say, "Look, you could take anything that 1072 00:31:20,290 --> 00:31:23,100 you have, and now you have a 10th of it, but the one 1073 00:31:23,100 --> 00:31:25,790 thing you still have is your autonomy," I'm like, "Shit, 1074 00:31:25,790 --> 00:31:27,010 that sucks, but I'll take- Yeah 1075 00:31:27,010 --> 00:31:30,505 the autonomy over everything." Conversely, if you said you 1076 00:31:30,505 --> 00:31:33,115 could have 10 times more than you have, but you have a boss, 1077 00:31:33,115 --> 00:31:35,354 so to speak, or you have, uh, you don't have control of, 1078 00:31:35,385 --> 00:31:37,775 of your own destiny anymore, I'm like, "Not interested." 1079 00:31:38,134 --> 00:31:41,004 Like, literally the only thing that matters to me is 1080 00:31:41,004 --> 00:31:43,384 having that control of, you know, of my destiny, of, 1081 00:31:43,424 --> 00:31:44,535 of whatever it's gonna be. 1082 00:31:44,565 --> 00:31:48,375 You know, even if the job sucks, so long as it's my job- My job. 1083 00:31:48,375 --> 00:31:50,275 ... I'm totally fine with that, right? 1084 00:31:50,275 --> 00:31:50,484 Yep, 1085 00:31:50,484 --> 00:31:50,744 yep. 1086 00:31:50,834 --> 00:31:54,895 And I think that honesty that I've developed over time has 1087 00:31:54,895 --> 00:31:58,604 served me incredibly well because it allows me to say, 1088 00:31:58,785 --> 00:32:01,765 "No, I'm doing these things for this specific reason." Uh-huh. 1089 00:32:01,795 --> 00:32:02,565 It sucks. 1090 00:32:02,565 --> 00:32:04,394 It puts me in a tough position a lot of the 1091 00:32:04,394 --> 00:32:06,515 times, but I understand why. 1092 00:32:06,605 --> 00:32:07,955 I don't think I did before, right? 1093 00:32:08,475 --> 00:32:09,815 And I think for a lot of people, they'll look 1094 00:32:09,815 --> 00:32:10,605 at this, right, Ryan? 1095 00:32:11,065 --> 00:32:13,925 And they'll say, "Yeah, but you shouldn't solve any of this 1096 00:32:13,925 --> 00:32:16,495 with work. You know, you should, you should be able to fill your 1097 00:32:16,495 --> 00:32:19,605 bucket with- Yeah ... life, with family, with all of those 1098 00:32:19,605 --> 00:32:22,304 things," and I think that's exactly the right answer, and 1099 00:32:22,304 --> 00:32:23,694 I think it works exactly never. 1100 00:32:23,694 --> 00:32:23,784 Yep, 1101 00:32:23,784 --> 00:32:26,225 0% of the time. 1102 00:32:26,705 --> 00:32:28,865 Yeah, it's, it's beautiful on paper. 1103 00:32:28,865 --> 00:32:30,934 It's a lovely, lovely sentiment. 1104 00:32:31,254 --> 00:32:33,334 Yeah, it's a great hallmark moment, and it- Yeah ... works 1105 00:32:33,334 --> 00:32:34,435 pretty much never, right? 1106 00:32:34,565 --> 00:32:37,584 For the rest of us who aren't quite that zen- Yeah ... um, 1107 00:32:37,584 --> 00:32:39,974 which is literally almost everybody, here's what I say. 1108 00:32:40,614 --> 00:32:42,294 It's okay to have these problems. 1109 00:32:42,325 --> 00:32:45,514 It's okay to be the dork in 2005 that got shoved into 1110 00:32:45,514 --> 00:32:46,535 a locker, and that's okay. 1111 00:32:46,535 --> 00:32:46,764 Yeah. 1112 00:32:47,194 --> 00:32:48,044 So long as you own it. 1113 00:32:48,044 --> 00:32:48,154 Right. 1114 00:32:48,414 --> 00:32:51,285 So long as you s- y- you say to yourself, if not 1115 00:32:51,285 --> 00:32:53,785 the world, "This is what I'm doing it for." Yeah. 1116 00:32:53,785 --> 00:32:55,745 "I, I'm getting up in the morning, right, and I'm 1117 00:32:55,745 --> 00:32:58,145 gonna prove to everybody that I wasn't that person. 1118 00:32:58,145 --> 00:33:00,105 I'm gonna prove to my old man that I was good enough. 1119 00:33:00,135 --> 00:33:01,794 You know, I'm gonna prove to whoever I have to prove 1120 00:33:01,794 --> 00:33:04,995 something to, but this is why I'm doing it, and this 1121 00:33:04,995 --> 00:33:08,014 is exactly how I'm gonna get there." And when that moment 1122 00:33:08,014 --> 00:33:11,715 comes that I can finally say to myself, "Yes, I am 1123 00:33:11,715 --> 00:33:14,185 no longer the dork of 2005. 1124 00:33:14,185 --> 00:33:18,105 I have officially un-dorked myself," then all of that effort 1125 00:33:18,255 --> 00:33:19,505 will probably be worth it. 1126 00:33:20,435 --> 00:33:22,484 Overthinking your startup because you're going it alone? 1127 00:33:22,885 --> 00:33:24,855 You don't have to, and honestly, you shouldn't. 1128 00:33:24,984 --> 00:33:27,614 Because instead, you can learn directly from peers 1129 00:33:27,614 --> 00:33:28,685 who've been in your shoes. 1130 00:33:28,974 --> 00:33:31,264 Connect with bootstrap founders and the advisors 1131 00:33:31,264 --> 00:33:33,694 helping them win in the Startups.com community. 1132 00:33:33,895 --> 00:33:38,625 Check out the Startups.com community at www.startups.com 1133 00:33:38,625 --> 00:33:39,584 to see if it's for you. 1134 00:33:39,795 --> 00:33:40,845 Could be just the thing you need. 1135 00:33:41,054 --> 00:33:41,924 I hope to see you inside.