Matt Abrahams: Clarity comes from action.
All of us need to be leap ready when it comes to our careers.
My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome the Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I am excited to speak with Ilana Golan.
Ilana is a barrier breaking leader and the founder of Leap Academy.
She focuses on resilience, reinvention, and building portfolio careers.
Ilana also hosts the top rated Leap Academy Podcast where I have been a guest.
Welcome, Ilana.
I look forward to our conversation.
Thanks so much for being here.
Ilana Golan: Oh, I love being here.
Thank you for inviting me, Matt.
Matt Abrahams: Alright, shall we get started?
Ilana Golan: Let's go.
Matt Abrahams: So you have quite an amazing and eclectic career,
including being a corporate executive, an entrepreneur, an
F16 flight instructor, and more.
I'm curious, is there a through line across all that you've done in your
career and what's motivated you for what you're doing and have done?
Ilana Golan: I would say the only pattern that I can see is a
little bit of breaking barriers.
I am very persistent, so I don't think I'm very talented, but I'm
very persistent, so I think that's a pattern that I'm very proud of.
And I think for me, a lot of it is pushing boundaries and seeing what's possible,
which is what I've been doing all my life.
Matt Abrahams: What advice and guidance do you provide to people
looking to make a change in their career, whether small or big?
Ilana Golan: The big thing for me was, I think that I was to some
extent sleepwalking through life.
To some extent, things were going okay and they're okay enough for
you to just continue with that okay status, and again, for everybody on
the outside, I had a perfect life.
I had a good career, two kids, beautiful husband and a home, right?
Like theoretically I should be happy, but it wasn't enough.
Now, obviously I needed like a big shove to my ego to really wake up, but I think,
you know, in hindsight, I wish more people would be more awake through their life.
And I think this is the big thing for Leap Academy because it used to be
a nice to have, but at the pace of change, it's not a nice to have anymore.
It's a must have.
And you need to be very intentional, very strategic.
Always be leap ready, right?
Always know where you're trying to go.
It could be in the same organization, by the way.
I'm not saying always leave, but what's next for me?
What responsibilities do I wanna take?
What other technologies do I wanna learn?
What is my growth opportunity?
So you always wanna be leap ready.
You always wanna kinda be a very awake of what's next.
And to start being very strategic about how do I build my personal brand to
take me there a lot faster, which is also a big thing that I wish I paid
more attention to earlier in my career.
Matt Abrahams: You've said several things I want to dive into there, so I
like this notion of being leap ready.
We've done a few other episodes where people have said you wanna hone your
skills, be connected, and build a social network, so that when you are ready
to move, that you have everything.
Your bags are packed, you've got the connections that can help.
So I like the idea of leap ready as a way of defining that.
I'd like to pull on two different threads.
First, I'd love for you to share what are the signs and signals
that can help us become more awake in your terms, in other words, to
say, hey, this is time to move on.
And then I want to come back after that and talk a little bit more
about personal branding, because I believe the brand you build in advance
of a leap can be really helpful.
So let's start with the signals and signs.
What should we be looking for when it's time for us to consider a pivot or a leap?
Ilana Golan: It's a great question because I think sometimes, like you
said, timing is everything and you don't, it doesn't mean that when
you're leap ready, it doesn't mean that I need to pack my bags and go.
But I still remember a time when one of my big bosses came to me and
said, what do you wanna do next?
Even within the organization, right?
And I had no clue.
Now that was a beautiful opportunity.
We were just acquired.
I could probably have maneuvered anywhere if I only knew, right?
So for me, a big part is I wanna get people into a habit of not necessarily
looking for a leap, but always being intentional, strategic with their
career and thinking, what's next?
Where am I trying to go?
And I do believe that in this space of change, people will change careers
even within, again, responsibilities, titles, whatever it is, right?
Even within the same organization.
But they will change it every year or two.
So, we will see a pace of change that we've never seen anything like it.
So knowing what's next is the first thing.
Now unrelated, I think, yes, there are definitely signs that either you're
more tired, you're more burned out, you're not as happy as you could be.
For me, a lot of it was waking up at three in the morning and
saying, this should be more to me.
What am I doing?
Why am I feeling small?
But it was good enough, right?
So I think a lot of times listen to the signs of is there more?
And the other thing that I'll say is life is in phases and
in different phases, different things will be important for you.
So the very first thing is to be okay with the fact that you're in a different phase.
And it could be that you care more about money.
It could be that you care more about growth and opportunity and possibilities
and fame, or you care about impact or balance, and you're not gonna have it all.
I don't believe in the myth, you're gonna have it all, just not at the same time.
So you're gonna pick a couple that are critical for you, knowing that the rest
will be a little bit compartment, right?
Like they're gonna take a backseat.
And as long as you're intentional about what's really critical
for me at that moment, now it's easier to make those leaps.
But at the pace of change, we shouldn't be looking at a career direction because
most of us are not gonna be deciding on something for the next twenty years.
We are deciding on something in a relatively short term.
So if we are gonna look at it as a career experiment, it's actually
freeing up a lot of the anxiety of deciding something very big.
Matt Abrahams: I really like the idea of framing it as an experiment,
and the horizon is not twenty, thirty year career, it's shorter.
I do like this idea of constantly scanning and being aware of what's
going on in your industry, or in the areas that you're interested in.
So that again, you can make a more intelligent choice.
And then finally, I think, so important is listen to how you're feeling, right?
And if you are waking up in the middle of the night or you're not feeling that
level of fulfillment that you'd like to feel, those are good signs and signals.
Before we get to the branding question, what if somebody feels like they've
missed their chance or they're too far along in their careers to start
over, what would you say to them?
So we've talked about what can initiate a change, but some of us have been
around a long time doing what we do.
Have we missed the boat?
Ilana Golan: In this era of change, we will see, I believe, a lot more
what we call portfolio careers.
And I do believe that Leap Academy is probably the only
one that really teaches that.
And I do believe that people will start, even if they have one stable job, which
I do believe is actually really handy, but are they gonna start, I don't know,
advising and sitting on boards and doing some public speaking and maybe open this
business and maybe investing a little bit.
Like they're gonna start having these multiple income streams so
that there's always a safety net, and it's just a lot more interesting.
Life, life just gets more exciting.
So I think there's a little bit of a combination, Matt.
Matt Abrahams: Can you briefly describe what a portfolio career is
and how we can go about building one?
Ilana Golan: So portfolio career is essentially, it's
just multiple streams of income.
And I think in today's world, there's just a lot of options
to create income these days.
And again, sometimes it's more about the income, but sometimes it's more
about exposure to new things or volunteering or sitting on specific
boards that you care about or like it, it's not necessarily income.
It's like ventures, if you will.
And what's really interesting in today's world, and we are gonna tie it to
personal branding, because sometimes it is more about the personal branding than
the actual money that comes with it.
But if you get involved with certain things, it can actually create a really
beautiful snowball on your personal brand, opportunities that come your
way, how you're perceived, et cetera.
This is probably one of the more powerful things that somebody can do, is you
have a classic portfolio, Matt, right?
Like you're lecturing, you have a book, you have a podcast, like you have all
these things that you're involved with, but the beautiful thing is they're
all under the same umbrella of making you an even stronger communicator,
more of a thought leader in your field, more invited to things, right?
So now it creates this beautiful synergy.
So if you can create this umbrella brand and tie these things together
and create a snowball, it's probably one of the strongest thing that
you can do to your personal brand and to the opportunities and what
kind of things will open your way.
Matt Abrahams: I think one of the things that has helped me, and I heard you
mention it, is that having some clear through line or some guiding principle,
I mean, everything I do is predicated on trying to help people hone and
develop their communication skills.
And the way I deploy that varies.
Sometimes it's in the classroom, sometimes it's through a podcast,
sometimes through writing, but all of it is really striving for the same thing.
And for me, you know, income is important.
Need to pay the bills, but for me it's just the ability to
impact and influence as well.
And my newly named portfolio career, I hadn't thought of it
that way, is really designed to help influence and impact people.
And thank you for helping us understand that.
And this idea that we can all build a portfolio career is really important.
So I want to bring this back to communication 'cause we've flirted
with branding a little bit.
When I switched careers, when I made a leap from high tech to teaching high
school, it was a big leap for me, and many people were like, why are you doing that?
That seems strange, or what's behind it?
What advice do you have to help people communicate their pivots, their
leaps, so that it tells a coherent story that helps others understand.
And I'm gonna extend the question, not just to the actual leap, but as you
build out your portfolio career, you have to be able to articulate that as well.
How do you think about the communication and branding around those choices and
are the best practices we can follow?
Ilana Golan: That's such a great question, and I think it will have a few
components, Matt, because I think the very first one is internally, because
you wanna convince yourself first, right?
Because when you're in peace with what you're trying to do, it's
a lot easier to convince others.
I think usually the hard parts come when you're still trying to figure
this out, and then there's people that are trying to help you and trying to
prevent you from doing the mistakes, and it has a tendency to keep you stuck.
But find your peace in what is the right pattern for you.
What do you wanna be known for?
Again, the more you think about it as an experiment, it's not as big of a
decision to make, so it's not as scary.
And then it's really about communicating it from the vision, but also the
pattern of why you, why this, why now?
Which we talked about structures, right?
Like why is this the right thing for me right now, and
why me, why this, right now?
And the more you can structure it in a very concise way, it basically lets
people understand, okay, she got this.
And this is what we were trying to get.
Because again, it's very rare that you'll get a very solid advice, so
somebody will say no to you if they've been where you're trying to go.
Usually you're gonna get it from the people who are trying to keep you safe.
So for those people, we're not trying to get their advice.
We're trying to show our peace and the idea and our vision, and to
explain to them that we are making decisions based on hope and dreams,
not necessarily fear and doubt.
And as long as you can make those decisions, everything changes.
Matt Abrahams: Lots of really insightful tidbits there.
So the first and foremost, you need to get clear with yourself.
You have to understand why this, why now, what's motivating me?
So it's hard to communicate something that you haven't
clearly articulated to yourself.
And this notion of reminding yourself that the people you're
communicating to care for you and they really wanna keep you safe.
And so helping them understand that the pivot, the change, the leap that you're
making is part of your, your hopes and your dreams I think is a wonderful
way to initiate the communication.
And of course your, music to my ears when you talk about a way to structure it, and
I like this, why this, why me, why now?
And that's a beautiful way to package up your story of the pivot,
the change, the leap, but also to help you position your brand.
So thank you for sharing so many insightful bits of
information in such a concise way.
I've listened and learned a lot from you.
And one of the things you talk about that really hit home for me is this
notion of clarity in reinvention.
What's your approach to helping someone figure out what
they really want to do next?
We've talked about how to figure out when the time is ready for that next thing.
But how do you really find that clarity about how you wanna reinvent yourself?
Do you have some specific advice?
Ilana Golan: First of all, I will just say, Matt, that not having
my clarity was probably one of the hardest times in my life.
And it sounds like weird because you've already been successful.
How, why would that take you down?
And I have to say that for high achievers and driven people that
kind of always knew what's next, this was a very alarming time for me.
And I was actually in that soapbox for a while, and I think that was a big calling
for Leap Academy and to try to help more people to figure out what's next in a
lot faster, in a lot more engineered way.
But in the general sense, what I would say is success leaves clues, and if
you're willing to look at the different clues in your life, and that can be all
the way from childhood and adulthood.
It's many times, not necessarily the skills, the learnable skills in
school, but it's more the patterns.
You talk about patterns, right?
It's more the patterns, is the transitions.
When did you get awards?
What are the people intrigued by you?
Where did you feel so happy and energized and excited?
And so we look at these clues and start creating again, experiments.
And when you look at these things as little experiments, they're not
heavy on a decision because you don't need to make a big decision.
You need to make, we call it the five days, five weeks, five months.
You just need to decide if this worth five days of my life to think about it, right?
That's all you need to decide.
And then is this worth five weeks of experiment a little bit and et cetera.
So it's a lot easier to make those decisions.
Really listen to what other people are telling you.
In many cases, these are the best clues that you have.
They wrote a review about you.
They sent you a thank you text.
Sometimes ask them like, what, what's the most intriguing
piece for you to work with me?
And you'll hear things that you didn't even think of.
And I think there's a lot of clues there as well.
And so for me, a lot of the ideas came from mentoring and some of the biggest
startup accelerators in the world like Google and Singularity University
and Carnegie Mellon, et cetera.
And what's interesting, when you look at startups, they need to do the same thing.
There's a plateau of opportunities and it's endless, which
direction should I go after?
And it's really more about these very engineered, structured experiments
that will give that clarity.
But I will also say, Matt, which is really important, that clarity comes
from action, not just thinking about it.
And I think we try to engineer the way or decide ahead of moving forward.
And that's actually really scary and it creates almost like a
prison and we can't move forward.
So the clarity actually comes from the momentum.
And I think the big thing in Leap Academy is we give people momentum
and suddenly the clarity kicks in.
Because sometimes you don't even know, like I'm sure you didn't
know, you're gonna have a podcast and a book and a thing, and a TEDx
that has millions of people, like you don't have all the recipe, but
with the clarity things click in.
Matt Abrahams: I really like the idea that a way to learn about reinvention
and what you should be focusing on is through the feedback the world gives
you, so your peers, your accolades.
We can become very internal focused when we're thinking about reinventing
ourselves and letting the external world, what people are saying about
us, how they're honoring our work, be a guide is really important.
And this notion that clarity comes from action, comes from the experiments.
And the experiments don't have to be super long.
They can be very short.
I totally hear you when you say we actually can prevent ourselves
from taking action because of all of our thinking, and really you
have to do to get some clear ideas.
Thank you for that.
So Ilana, this has been fantastic.
Before we end, I like to ask three questions.
One I create just for you and then the other two I ask to everybody.
Are you ready for that?
Ilana Golan: Of course.
Matt Abrahams: So as the expert of pivoting, leaping, changing careers, I'm
curious, what do you see next for you?
Do you have some ideas about what the next leap will be?
Ilana Golan: I do, just because my book is in the making and
it's at the final stages.
So there's a leap, uh, the art of leaping book that is like, uh, we're in the
book proposal phase, so it is coming.
I truly believe that in today's world, we're in front of a cliff
of millions of people that will need to reinvent themselves.
And I think there are a lot of re-skill schools, but not a lot of companies
that teach reinvention and creating portfolio career, and we just need to
grow fast enough to be able to help the millions of people that will need this.
Matt Abrahams: I love that idea of helping people reinvent rather than just re-skill.
And congratulations, writing a book is a big deal and it can be a lot of
fun, and it's certainly a lot of work.
Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Ilana Golan: I do love Simon Sinek and how he communicates in the sense that
he's very soft, articulate, and I think I have a lot to learn from that too.
Matt Abrahams: I agree that Simon Sinek is a very effective communicator and I
like that you are appreciating the things he brings, but also noting the things
that, the ways in which you're different and we all have to find our own style.
Alright, final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Ilana Golan: I will say peace of mind, knowing what you wanna say, basically,
and being okay with saying it, knowing your audience, very critical.
I mean, kind of, I'm repeating you because structuring the way you're saying
it, like I feel embarrassed because I was like, what can I say different?
But these are like, totally agree.
So I think I'm repeating what you're saying.
Matt Abrahams: There are some truisms, and I think structure,
knowing your audience, et cetera.
The piece you added that I think is really important for everyone to
consider is there's confidence in how you deliver information, but there's also
confidence in what you are delivering.
And you highlighted that in one of your ingredients, saying you have to
be comfortable with what you're saying.
And that's important.
That's important to feel confident in what you're saying.
Now, that's not to say that you can't change it, make adjustments,
but I appreciate you adding that little nuance to what we say.
We have to be confident in it.
Well, Ilana, you shared so many valuable tips.
You helped us to realize that the leaps that we make are experiments.
That clarity comes through the actions and experiments that we run, and ultimately,
that we all need to be helping ourselves by being leap ready and being ready
to communicate what it is we do or are planning to do to those around us.
Thank you so much for your time.
Ilana Golan: Thank you, Matt.
This was so fun and you're such a great interviewer.
Thank you so much.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about careers and pivoting, please listen to
episode 187 with Dorie Clark and episode 147 with Whitney Johnson.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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