WEBVTT 00:00:03.360 --> 00:00:06.120 Matt Abrahams: Clarity comes from action. 00:00:06.540 --> 00:00:10.230 All of us need to be leap ready when it comes to our careers. 00:00:10.650 --> 00:00:13.980 My name is Matt Abrahams and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:15.780 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.110 --> 00:00:19.265 Welcome the Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:20.400 --> 00:00:22.930 Today I am excited to speak with Ilana Golan. 00:00:22.930 --> 00:00:26.189 Ilana is a barrier breaking leader and the founder of Leap Academy. 00:00:26.459 --> 00:00:30.839 She focuses on resilience, reinvention, and building portfolio careers. 00:00:31.109 --> 00:00:36.120 Ilana also hosts the top rated Leap Academy Podcast where I have been a guest. 00:00:36.599 --> 00:00:37.419 Welcome, Ilana. 00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:39.269 I look forward to our conversation. 00:00:39.300 --> 00:00:40.560 Thanks so much for being here. 00:00:40.945 --> 00:00:41.995 Ilana Golan: Oh, I love being here. 00:00:41.995 --> 00:00:43.405 Thank you for inviting me, Matt. 00:00:43.735 --> 00:00:44.995 Matt Abrahams: Alright, shall we get started? 00:00:45.265 --> 00:00:45.895 Ilana Golan: Let's go. 00:00:46.225 --> 00:00:49.735 Matt Abrahams: So you have quite an amazing and eclectic career, 00:00:49.735 --> 00:00:53.215 including being a corporate executive, an entrepreneur, an 00:00:53.215 --> 00:00:56.455 F16 flight instructor, and more. 00:00:56.785 --> 00:01:00.475 I'm curious, is there a through line across all that you've done in your 00:01:00.475 --> 00:01:04.075 career and what's motivated you for what you're doing and have done? 00:01:04.425 --> 00:01:07.335 Ilana Golan: I would say the only pattern that I can see is a 00:01:07.335 --> 00:01:08.895 little bit of breaking barriers. 00:01:08.895 --> 00:01:14.295 I am very persistent, so I don't think I'm very talented, but I'm 00:01:14.295 --> 00:01:18.825 very persistent, so I think that's a pattern that I'm very proud of. 00:01:18.825 --> 00:01:23.115 And I think for me, a lot of it is pushing boundaries and seeing what's possible, 00:01:23.115 --> 00:01:25.035 which is what I've been doing all my life. 00:01:25.185 --> 00:01:28.065 Matt Abrahams: What advice and guidance do you provide to people 00:01:28.065 --> 00:01:31.485 looking to make a change in their career, whether small or big? 00:01:31.975 --> 00:01:36.175 Ilana Golan: The big thing for me was, I think that I was to some 00:01:36.175 --> 00:01:38.065 extent sleepwalking through life. 00:01:38.185 --> 00:01:42.475 To some extent, things were going okay and they're okay enough for 00:01:42.475 --> 00:01:47.815 you to just continue with that okay status, and again, for everybody on 00:01:48.125 --> 00:01:50.245 the outside, I had a perfect life. 00:01:50.275 --> 00:01:54.565 I had a good career, two kids, beautiful husband and a home, right? 00:01:54.565 --> 00:01:57.865 Like theoretically I should be happy, but it wasn't enough. 00:01:57.895 --> 00:02:03.714 Now, obviously I needed like a big shove to my ego to really wake up, but I think, 00:02:03.714 --> 00:02:08.595 you know, in hindsight, I wish more people would be more awake through their life. 00:02:08.595 --> 00:02:12.435 And I think this is the big thing for Leap Academy because it used to be 00:02:12.525 --> 00:02:16.125 a nice to have, but at the pace of change, it's not a nice to have anymore. 00:02:16.125 --> 00:02:17.025 It's a must have. 00:02:17.025 --> 00:02:19.755 And you need to be very intentional, very strategic. 00:02:19.845 --> 00:02:21.615 Always be leap ready, right? 00:02:21.615 --> 00:02:23.085 Always know where you're trying to go. 00:02:23.085 --> 00:02:25.005 It could be in the same organization, by the way. 00:02:25.005 --> 00:02:27.585 I'm not saying always leave, but what's next for me? 00:02:27.585 --> 00:02:29.355 What responsibilities do I wanna take? 00:02:29.355 --> 00:02:31.515 What other technologies do I wanna learn? 00:02:31.515 --> 00:02:33.195 What is my growth opportunity? 00:02:33.195 --> 00:02:35.295 So you always wanna be leap ready. 00:02:35.295 --> 00:02:38.745 You always wanna kinda be a very awake of what's next. 00:02:38.864 --> 00:02:42.375 And to start being very strategic about how do I build my personal brand to 00:02:42.375 --> 00:02:46.095 take me there a lot faster, which is also a big thing that I wish I paid 00:02:46.095 --> 00:02:48.495 more attention to earlier in my career. 00:02:49.005 --> 00:02:51.315 Matt Abrahams: You've said several things I want to dive into there, so I 00:02:51.315 --> 00:02:53.459 like this notion of being leap ready. 00:02:53.459 --> 00:02:56.760 We've done a few other episodes where people have said you wanna hone your 00:02:56.760 --> 00:03:01.350 skills, be connected, and build a social network, so that when you are ready 00:03:01.380 --> 00:03:03.179 to move, that you have everything. 00:03:03.179 --> 00:03:06.179 Your bags are packed, you've got the connections that can help. 00:03:06.179 --> 00:03:09.450 So I like the idea of leap ready as a way of defining that. 00:03:09.640 --> 00:03:11.679 I'd like to pull on two different threads. 00:03:11.709 --> 00:03:14.920 First, I'd love for you to share what are the signs and signals 00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:18.940 that can help us become more awake in your terms, in other words, to 00:03:18.940 --> 00:03:20.529 say, hey, this is time to move on. 00:03:20.589 --> 00:03:23.049 And then I want to come back after that and talk a little bit more 00:03:23.049 --> 00:03:26.619 about personal branding, because I believe the brand you build in advance 00:03:26.619 --> 00:03:28.060 of a leap can be really helpful. 00:03:28.060 --> 00:03:30.820 So let's start with the signals and signs. 00:03:30.880 --> 00:03:34.750 What should we be looking for when it's time for us to consider a pivot or a leap? 00:03:35.135 --> 00:03:38.195 Ilana Golan: It's a great question because I think sometimes, like you 00:03:38.195 --> 00:03:41.255 said, timing is everything and you don't, it doesn't mean that when 00:03:41.255 --> 00:03:44.315 you're leap ready, it doesn't mean that I need to pack my bags and go. 00:03:44.495 --> 00:03:48.695 But I still remember a time when one of my big bosses came to me and 00:03:48.695 --> 00:03:50.225 said, what do you wanna do next? 00:03:50.285 --> 00:03:52.145 Even within the organization, right? 00:03:52.145 --> 00:03:53.165 And I had no clue. 00:03:53.195 --> 00:03:55.055 Now that was a beautiful opportunity. 00:03:55.235 --> 00:03:56.255 We were just acquired. 00:03:56.820 --> 00:04:00.780 I could probably have maneuvered anywhere if I only knew, right? 00:04:00.780 --> 00:04:05.880 So for me, a big part is I wanna get people into a habit of not necessarily 00:04:05.880 --> 00:04:10.410 looking for a leap, but always being intentional, strategic with their 00:04:10.410 --> 00:04:12.450 career and thinking, what's next? 00:04:12.660 --> 00:04:13.829 Where am I trying to go? 00:04:13.829 --> 00:04:18.149 And I do believe that in this space of change, people will change careers 00:04:18.149 --> 00:04:21.659 even within, again, responsibilities, titles, whatever it is, right? 00:04:21.659 --> 00:04:23.130 Even within the same organization. 00:04:23.130 --> 00:04:24.690 But they will change it every year or two. 00:04:24.810 --> 00:04:28.930 So, we will see a pace of change that we've never seen anything like it. 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:31.990 So knowing what's next is the first thing. 00:04:32.230 --> 00:04:37.150 Now unrelated, I think, yes, there are definitely signs that either you're 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:40.660 more tired, you're more burned out, you're not as happy as you could be. 00:04:40.840 --> 00:04:43.780 For me, a lot of it was waking up at three in the morning and 00:04:43.780 --> 00:04:45.370 saying, this should be more to me. 00:04:45.370 --> 00:04:46.150 What am I doing? 00:04:46.210 --> 00:04:47.740 Why am I feeling small? 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:49.690 But it was good enough, right? 00:04:49.690 --> 00:04:54.280 So I think a lot of times listen to the signs of is there more? 00:04:54.280 --> 00:04:57.640 And the other thing that I'll say is life is in phases and 00:04:57.640 --> 00:05:00.730 in different phases, different things will be important for you. 00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:04.719 So the very first thing is to be okay with the fact that you're in a different phase. 00:05:04.719 --> 00:05:06.940 And it could be that you care more about money. 00:05:06.940 --> 00:05:10.150 It could be that you care more about growth and opportunity and possibilities 00:05:10.150 --> 00:05:14.230 and fame, or you care about impact or balance, and you're not gonna have it all. 00:05:14.230 --> 00:05:17.320 I don't believe in the myth, you're gonna have it all, just not at the same time. 00:05:17.375 --> 00:05:21.965 So you're gonna pick a couple that are critical for you, knowing that the rest 00:05:21.965 --> 00:05:24.065 will be a little bit compartment, right? 00:05:24.065 --> 00:05:25.805 Like they're gonna take a backseat. 00:05:26.135 --> 00:05:28.865 And as long as you're intentional about what's really critical 00:05:28.865 --> 00:05:32.705 for me at that moment, now it's easier to make those leaps. 00:05:32.735 --> 00:05:36.785 But at the pace of change, we shouldn't be looking at a career direction because 00:05:36.785 --> 00:05:40.535 most of us are not gonna be deciding on something for the next twenty years. 00:05:40.535 --> 00:05:43.835 We are deciding on something in a relatively short term. 00:05:43.955 --> 00:05:47.195 So if we are gonna look at it as a career experiment, it's actually 00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:51.730 freeing up a lot of the anxiety of deciding something very big. 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:55.150 Matt Abrahams: I really like the idea of framing it as an experiment, 00:05:55.300 --> 00:05:59.770 and the horizon is not twenty, thirty year career, it's shorter. 00:05:59.860 --> 00:06:04.930 I do like this idea of constantly scanning and being aware of what's 00:06:04.930 --> 00:06:08.675 going on in your industry, or in the areas that you're interested in. 00:06:08.855 --> 00:06:11.765 So that again, you can make a more intelligent choice. 00:06:11.765 --> 00:06:16.025 And then finally, I think, so important is listen to how you're feeling, right? 00:06:16.025 --> 00:06:19.115 And if you are waking up in the middle of the night or you're not feeling that 00:06:19.115 --> 00:06:23.165 level of fulfillment that you'd like to feel, those are good signs and signals. 00:06:23.285 --> 00:06:26.465 Before we get to the branding question, what if somebody feels like they've 00:06:26.465 --> 00:06:30.720 missed their chance or they're too far along in their careers to start 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:32.100 over, what would you say to them? 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:34.920 So we've talked about what can initiate a change, but some of us have been 00:06:34.920 --> 00:06:36.870 around a long time doing what we do. 00:06:37.020 --> 00:06:37.695 Have we missed the boat? 00:06:38.505 --> 00:06:42.825 Ilana Golan: In this era of change, we will see, I believe, a lot more 00:06:42.825 --> 00:06:44.505 what we call portfolio careers. 00:06:44.505 --> 00:06:47.054 And I do believe that Leap Academy is probably the only 00:06:47.054 --> 00:06:48.495 one that really teaches that. 00:06:48.585 --> 00:06:53.205 And I do believe that people will start, even if they have one stable job, which 00:06:53.205 --> 00:06:57.164 I do believe is actually really handy, but are they gonna start, I don't know, 00:06:57.164 --> 00:07:01.155 advising and sitting on boards and doing some public speaking and maybe open this 00:07:01.155 --> 00:07:02.745 business and maybe investing a little bit. 00:07:02.775 --> 00:07:07.180 Like they're gonna start having these multiple income streams so 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:10.840 that there's always a safety net, and it's just a lot more interesting. 00:07:10.900 --> 00:07:13.270 Life, life just gets more exciting. 00:07:13.270 --> 00:07:16.030 So I think there's a little bit of a combination, Matt. 00:07:16.270 --> 00:07:20.410 Matt Abrahams: Can you briefly describe what a portfolio career is 00:07:20.410 --> 00:07:23.080 and how we can go about building one? 00:07:23.320 --> 00:07:25.750 Ilana Golan: So portfolio career is essentially, it's 00:07:25.750 --> 00:07:27.340 just multiple streams of income. 00:07:27.340 --> 00:07:30.910 And I think in today's world, there's just a lot of options 00:07:30.910 --> 00:07:32.410 to create income these days. 00:07:32.590 --> 00:07:35.800 And again, sometimes it's more about the income, but sometimes it's more 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:40.539 about exposure to new things or volunteering or sitting on specific 00:07:40.539 --> 00:07:44.320 boards that you care about or like it, it's not necessarily income. 00:07:44.320 --> 00:07:46.090 It's like ventures, if you will. 00:07:46.299 --> 00:07:49.179 And what's really interesting in today's world, and we are gonna tie it to 00:07:49.179 --> 00:07:53.200 personal branding, because sometimes it is more about the personal branding than 00:07:53.200 --> 00:07:55.299 the actual money that comes with it. 00:07:55.390 --> 00:07:58.960 But if you get involved with certain things, it can actually create a really 00:07:58.960 --> 00:08:02.789 beautiful snowball on your personal brand, opportunities that come your 00:08:02.789 --> 00:08:05.070 way, how you're perceived, et cetera. 00:08:05.460 --> 00:08:10.289 This is probably one of the more powerful things that somebody can do, is you 00:08:10.289 --> 00:08:12.810 have a classic portfolio, Matt, right? 00:08:12.810 --> 00:08:16.680 Like you're lecturing, you have a book, you have a podcast, like you have all 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:19.440 these things that you're involved with, but the beautiful thing is they're 00:08:19.469 --> 00:08:23.940 all under the same umbrella of making you an even stronger communicator, 00:08:24.435 --> 00:08:27.855 more of a thought leader in your field, more invited to things, right? 00:08:27.855 --> 00:08:30.585 So now it creates this beautiful synergy. 00:08:30.705 --> 00:08:34.695 So if you can create this umbrella brand and tie these things together 00:08:34.695 --> 00:08:37.815 and create a snowball, it's probably one of the strongest thing that 00:08:37.815 --> 00:08:40.755 you can do to your personal brand and to the opportunities and what 00:08:40.755 --> 00:08:42.255 kind of things will open your way. 00:08:42.675 --> 00:08:45.075 Matt Abrahams: I think one of the things that has helped me, and I heard you 00:08:45.075 --> 00:08:49.935 mention it, is that having some clear through line or some guiding principle, 00:08:49.935 --> 00:08:53.385 I mean, everything I do is predicated on trying to help people hone and 00:08:53.385 --> 00:08:55.185 develop their communication skills. 00:08:55.335 --> 00:08:57.465 And the way I deploy that varies. 00:08:57.465 --> 00:09:00.075 Sometimes it's in the classroom, sometimes it's through a podcast, 00:09:00.075 --> 00:09:03.765 sometimes through writing, but all of it is really striving for the same thing. 00:09:03.765 --> 00:09:06.375 And for me, you know, income is important. 00:09:06.579 --> 00:09:09.489 Need to pay the bills, but for me it's just the ability to 00:09:09.489 --> 00:09:11.229 impact and influence as well. 00:09:11.229 --> 00:09:14.530 And my newly named portfolio career, I hadn't thought of it 00:09:14.530 --> 00:09:18.010 that way, is really designed to help influence and impact people. 00:09:18.010 --> 00:09:19.780 And thank you for helping us understand that. 00:09:19.780 --> 00:09:23.979 And this idea that we can all build a portfolio career is really important. 00:09:24.370 --> 00:09:27.160 So I want to bring this back to communication 'cause we've flirted 00:09:27.160 --> 00:09:28.449 with branding a little bit. 00:09:28.630 --> 00:09:32.620 When I switched careers, when I made a leap from high tech to teaching high 00:09:32.620 --> 00:09:37.540 school, it was a big leap for me, and many people were like, why are you doing that? 00:09:37.540 --> 00:09:39.760 That seems strange, or what's behind it? 00:09:39.850 --> 00:09:44.830 What advice do you have to help people communicate their pivots, their 00:09:44.830 --> 00:09:50.595 leaps, so that it tells a coherent story that helps others understand. 00:09:50.775 --> 00:09:54.255 And I'm gonna extend the question, not just to the actual leap, but as you 00:09:54.255 --> 00:09:57.885 build out your portfolio career, you have to be able to articulate that as well. 00:09:57.915 --> 00:10:02.535 How do you think about the communication and branding around those choices and 00:10:02.535 --> 00:10:04.365 are the best practices we can follow? 00:10:04.945 --> 00:10:07.795 Ilana Golan: That's such a great question, and I think it will have a few 00:10:07.795 --> 00:10:11.905 components, Matt, because I think the very first one is internally, because 00:10:11.905 --> 00:10:15.025 you wanna convince yourself first, right? 00:10:15.025 --> 00:10:18.535 Because when you're in peace with what you're trying to do, it's 00:10:18.535 --> 00:10:20.395 a lot easier to convince others. 00:10:20.395 --> 00:10:24.295 I think usually the hard parts come when you're still trying to figure 00:10:24.295 --> 00:10:28.135 this out, and then there's people that are trying to help you and trying to 00:10:28.295 --> 00:10:33.155 prevent you from doing the mistakes, and it has a tendency to keep you stuck. 00:10:33.454 --> 00:10:37.865 But find your peace in what is the right pattern for you. 00:10:37.865 --> 00:10:39.334 What do you wanna be known for? 00:10:39.635 --> 00:10:42.905 Again, the more you think about it as an experiment, it's not as big of a 00:10:42.905 --> 00:10:46.125 decision to make, so it's not as scary. 00:10:46.395 --> 00:10:51.704 And then it's really about communicating it from the vision, but also the 00:10:51.704 --> 00:10:54.435 pattern of why you, why this, why now? 00:10:54.495 --> 00:10:56.655 Which we talked about structures, right? 00:10:56.655 --> 00:11:00.344 Like why is this the right thing for me right now, and 00:11:00.344 --> 00:11:01.964 why me, why this, right now? 00:11:02.175 --> 00:11:07.765 And the more you can structure it in a very concise way, it basically lets 00:11:07.765 --> 00:11:09.805 people understand, okay, she got this. 00:11:10.015 --> 00:11:11.905 And this is what we were trying to get. 00:11:12.085 --> 00:11:17.635 Because again, it's very rare that you'll get a very solid advice, so 00:11:17.635 --> 00:11:21.625 somebody will say no to you if they've been where you're trying to go. 00:11:21.775 --> 00:11:25.195 Usually you're gonna get it from the people who are trying to keep you safe. 00:11:25.650 --> 00:11:29.820 So for those people, we're not trying to get their advice. 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:35.430 We're trying to show our peace and the idea and our vision, and to 00:11:35.430 --> 00:11:38.610 explain to them that we are making decisions based on hope and dreams, 00:11:38.610 --> 00:11:39.900 not necessarily fear and doubt. 00:11:40.350 --> 00:11:43.500 And as long as you can make those decisions, everything changes. 00:11:44.189 --> 00:11:46.500 Matt Abrahams: Lots of really insightful tidbits there. 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:50.010 So the first and foremost, you need to get clear with yourself. 00:11:50.069 --> 00:11:53.640 You have to understand why this, why now, what's motivating me? 00:11:53.640 --> 00:11:55.709 So it's hard to communicate something that you haven't 00:11:55.739 --> 00:11:57.479 clearly articulated to yourself. 00:11:57.689 --> 00:12:00.900 And this notion of reminding yourself that the people you're 00:12:00.900 --> 00:12:04.619 communicating to care for you and they really wanna keep you safe. 00:12:04.650 --> 00:12:08.745 And so helping them understand that the pivot, the change, the leap that you're 00:12:08.745 --> 00:12:12.314 making is part of your, your hopes and your dreams I think is a wonderful 00:12:12.314 --> 00:12:14.265 way to initiate the communication. 00:12:14.324 --> 00:12:18.584 And of course your, music to my ears when you talk about a way to structure it, and 00:12:18.584 --> 00:12:22.275 I like this, why this, why me, why now? 00:12:22.305 --> 00:12:26.875 And that's a beautiful way to package up your story of the pivot, 00:12:26.875 --> 00:12:30.340 the change, the leap, but also to help you position your brand. 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:33.520 So thank you for sharing so many insightful bits of 00:12:33.520 --> 00:12:36.010 information in such a concise way. 00:12:36.550 --> 00:12:38.710 I've listened and learned a lot from you. 00:12:38.710 --> 00:12:42.010 And one of the things you talk about that really hit home for me is this 00:12:42.010 --> 00:12:44.830 notion of clarity in reinvention. 00:12:45.160 --> 00:12:48.730 What's your approach to helping someone figure out what 00:12:48.730 --> 00:12:50.230 they really want to do next? 00:12:50.230 --> 00:12:54.335 We've talked about how to figure out when the time is ready for that next thing. 00:12:54.335 --> 00:12:58.895 But how do you really find that clarity about how you wanna reinvent yourself? 00:12:58.895 --> 00:13:00.155 Do you have some specific advice? 00:13:00.900 --> 00:13:04.199 Ilana Golan: First of all, I will just say, Matt, that not having 00:13:04.199 --> 00:13:07.260 my clarity was probably one of the hardest times in my life. 00:13:07.260 --> 00:13:11.400 And it sounds like weird because you've already been successful. 00:13:11.520 --> 00:13:13.620 How, why would that take you down? 00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:17.490 And I have to say that for high achievers and driven people that 00:13:17.490 --> 00:13:22.829 kind of always knew what's next, this was a very alarming time for me. 00:13:22.829 --> 00:13:27.900 And I was actually in that soapbox for a while, and I think that was a big calling 00:13:27.900 --> 00:13:32.040 for Leap Academy and to try to help more people to figure out what's next in a 00:13:32.040 --> 00:13:33.780 lot faster, in a lot more engineered way. 00:13:33.900 --> 00:13:39.089 But in the general sense, what I would say is success leaves clues, and if 00:13:39.089 --> 00:13:43.564 you're willing to look at the different clues in your life, and that can be all 00:13:43.564 --> 00:13:45.965 the way from childhood and adulthood. 00:13:46.235 --> 00:13:50.285 It's many times, not necessarily the skills, the learnable skills in 00:13:50.285 --> 00:13:52.655 school, but it's more the patterns. 00:13:52.685 --> 00:13:53.885 You talk about patterns, right? 00:13:53.885 --> 00:13:56.675 It's more the patterns, is the transitions. 00:13:56.944 --> 00:13:58.204 When did you get awards? 00:13:58.235 --> 00:14:00.365 What are the people intrigued by you? 00:14:00.425 --> 00:14:03.905 Where did you feel so happy and energized and excited? 00:14:03.905 --> 00:14:09.265 And so we look at these clues and start creating again, experiments. 00:14:09.415 --> 00:14:12.475 And when you look at these things as little experiments, they're not 00:14:12.475 --> 00:14:16.255 heavy on a decision because you don't need to make a big decision. 00:14:16.255 --> 00:14:19.165 You need to make, we call it the five days, five weeks, five months. 00:14:19.435 --> 00:14:23.125 You just need to decide if this worth five days of my life to think about it, right? 00:14:23.125 --> 00:14:24.700 That's all you need to decide. 00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:28.105 And then is this worth five weeks of experiment a little bit and et cetera. 00:14:28.105 --> 00:14:30.715 So it's a lot easier to make those decisions. 00:14:30.944 --> 00:14:33.495 Really listen to what other people are telling you. 00:14:33.495 --> 00:14:36.765 In many cases, these are the best clues that you have. 00:14:36.765 --> 00:14:38.265 They wrote a review about you. 00:14:38.324 --> 00:14:40.334 They sent you a thank you text. 00:14:40.665 --> 00:14:43.515 Sometimes ask them like, what, what's the most intriguing 00:14:43.515 --> 00:14:45.165 piece for you to work with me? 00:14:45.525 --> 00:14:48.074 And you'll hear things that you didn't even think of. 00:14:48.074 --> 00:14:51.165 And I think there's a lot of clues there as well. 00:14:51.405 --> 00:14:57.104 And so for me, a lot of the ideas came from mentoring and some of the biggest 00:14:57.104 --> 00:15:00.970 startup accelerators in the world like Google and Singularity University 00:15:00.970 --> 00:15:02.520 and Carnegie Mellon, et cetera. 00:15:02.520 --> 00:15:06.060 And what's interesting, when you look at startups, they need to do the same thing. 00:15:06.060 --> 00:15:09.570 There's a plateau of opportunities and it's endless, which 00:15:09.570 --> 00:15:11.070 direction should I go after? 00:15:11.070 --> 00:15:16.020 And it's really more about these very engineered, structured experiments 00:15:16.020 --> 00:15:17.580 that will give that clarity. 00:15:17.670 --> 00:15:21.060 But I will also say, Matt, which is really important, that clarity comes 00:15:21.060 --> 00:15:23.280 from action, not just thinking about it. 00:15:23.550 --> 00:15:29.185 And I think we try to engineer the way or decide ahead of moving forward. 00:15:29.425 --> 00:15:32.574 And that's actually really scary and it creates almost like a 00:15:32.574 --> 00:15:34.495 prison and we can't move forward. 00:15:34.915 --> 00:15:37.645 So the clarity actually comes from the momentum. 00:15:37.645 --> 00:15:40.944 And I think the big thing in Leap Academy is we give people momentum 00:15:41.095 --> 00:15:42.955 and suddenly the clarity kicks in. 00:15:42.955 --> 00:15:45.385 Because sometimes you don't even know, like I'm sure you didn't 00:15:45.385 --> 00:15:49.194 know, you're gonna have a podcast and a book and a thing, and a TEDx 00:15:49.194 --> 00:15:53.995 that has millions of people, like you don't have all the recipe, but 00:15:54.235 --> 00:15:56.125 with the clarity things click in. 00:15:56.455 --> 00:16:02.755 Matt Abrahams: I really like the idea that a way to learn about reinvention 00:16:02.755 --> 00:16:06.175 and what you should be focusing on is through the feedback the world gives 00:16:06.175 --> 00:16:09.025 you, so your peers, your accolades. 00:16:09.295 --> 00:16:13.165 We can become very internal focused when we're thinking about reinventing 00:16:13.165 --> 00:16:16.795 ourselves and letting the external world, what people are saying about 00:16:16.795 --> 00:16:20.430 us, how they're honoring our work, be a guide is really important. 00:16:20.430 --> 00:16:24.990 And this notion that clarity comes from action, comes from the experiments. 00:16:24.990 --> 00:16:27.630 And the experiments don't have to be super long. 00:16:27.630 --> 00:16:28.800 They can be very short. 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.699 I totally hear you when you say we actually can prevent ourselves 00:16:32.699 --> 00:16:35.579 from taking action because of all of our thinking, and really you 00:16:35.579 --> 00:16:37.530 have to do to get some clear ideas. 00:16:37.680 --> 00:16:38.520 Thank you for that. 00:16:39.030 --> 00:16:41.160 So Ilana, this has been fantastic. 00:16:41.160 --> 00:16:43.800 Before we end, I like to ask three questions. 00:16:43.800 --> 00:16:47.160 One I create just for you and then the other two I ask to everybody. 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:47.890 Are you ready for that? 00:16:48.510 --> 00:16:48.930 Ilana Golan: Of course. 00:16:49.590 --> 00:16:53.250 Matt Abrahams: So as the expert of pivoting, leaping, changing careers, I'm 00:16:53.250 --> 00:16:55.319 curious, what do you see next for you? 00:16:55.350 --> 00:16:57.725 Do you have some ideas about what the next leap will be? 00:16:58.349 --> 00:17:00.719 Ilana Golan: I do, just because my book is in the making and 00:17:00.719 --> 00:17:02.339 it's at the final stages. 00:17:02.339 --> 00:17:06.480 So there's a leap, uh, the art of leaping book that is like, uh, we're in the 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.579 book proposal phase, so it is coming. 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:13.139 I truly believe that in today's world, we're in front of a cliff 00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:16.760 of millions of people that will need to reinvent themselves. 00:17:16.760 --> 00:17:21.050 And I think there are a lot of re-skill schools, but not a lot of companies 00:17:21.050 --> 00:17:25.100 that teach reinvention and creating portfolio career, and we just need to 00:17:25.100 --> 00:17:28.520 grow fast enough to be able to help the millions of people that will need this. 00:17:29.060 --> 00:17:33.440 Matt Abrahams: I love that idea of helping people reinvent rather than just re-skill. 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:36.800 And congratulations, writing a book is a big deal and it can be a lot of 00:17:36.800 --> 00:17:38.570 fun, and it's certainly a lot of work. 00:17:38.930 --> 00:17:43.340 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:17:43.875 --> 00:17:48.315 Ilana Golan: I do love Simon Sinek and how he communicates in the sense that 00:17:48.315 --> 00:17:53.655 he's very soft, articulate, and I think I have a lot to learn from that too. 00:17:54.315 --> 00:17:57.585 Matt Abrahams: I agree that Simon Sinek is a very effective communicator and I 00:17:57.585 --> 00:18:01.845 like that you are appreciating the things he brings, but also noting the things 00:18:01.875 --> 00:18:04.995 that, the ways in which you're different and we all have to find our own style. 00:18:05.385 --> 00:18:06.915 Alright, final question. 00:18:07.065 --> 00:18:12.075 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:18:12.465 --> 00:18:17.175 Ilana Golan: I will say peace of mind, knowing what you wanna say, basically, 00:18:17.175 --> 00:18:21.795 and being okay with saying it, knowing your audience, very critical. 00:18:22.215 --> 00:18:25.995 I mean, kind of, I'm repeating you because structuring the way you're saying 00:18:25.995 --> 00:18:28.995 it, like I feel embarrassed because I was like, what can I say different? 00:18:28.995 --> 00:18:31.365 But these are like, totally agree. 00:18:31.395 --> 00:18:33.400 So I think I'm repeating what you're saying. 00:18:33.995 --> 00:18:36.035 Matt Abrahams: There are some truisms, and I think structure, 00:18:36.035 --> 00:18:37.175 knowing your audience, et cetera. 00:18:37.355 --> 00:18:40.385 The piece you added that I think is really important for everyone to 00:18:40.385 --> 00:18:45.635 consider is there's confidence in how you deliver information, but there's also 00:18:45.635 --> 00:18:47.855 confidence in what you are delivering. 00:18:47.855 --> 00:18:50.885 And you highlighted that in one of your ingredients, saying you have to 00:18:50.885 --> 00:18:52.595 be comfortable with what you're saying. 00:18:52.625 --> 00:18:53.615 And that's important. 00:18:53.705 --> 00:18:56.495 That's important to feel confident in what you're saying. 00:18:56.495 --> 00:18:59.465 Now, that's not to say that you can't change it, make adjustments, 00:18:59.465 --> 00:19:02.495 but I appreciate you adding that little nuance to what we say. 00:19:02.495 --> 00:19:03.695 We have to be confident in it. 00:19:04.055 --> 00:19:07.295 Well, Ilana, you shared so many valuable tips. 00:19:07.355 --> 00:19:12.095 You helped us to realize that the leaps that we make are experiments. 00:19:12.215 --> 00:19:17.585 That clarity comes through the actions and experiments that we run, and ultimately, 00:19:17.615 --> 00:19:22.255 that we all need to be helping ourselves by being leap ready and being ready 00:19:22.255 --> 00:19:26.129 to communicate what it is we do or are planning to do to those around us. 00:19:26.129 --> 00:19:27.300 Thank you so much for your time. 00:19:27.570 --> 00:19:28.230 Ilana Golan: Thank you, Matt. 00:19:28.230 --> 00:19:30.899 This was so fun and you're such a great interviewer. 00:19:30.899 --> 00:19:31.860 Thank you so much. 00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:36.179 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:19:36.179 --> 00:19:38.399 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:19:38.730 --> 00:19:41.340 To learn more about careers and pivoting, please listen to 00:19:41.340 --> 00:19:46.080 episode 187 with Dorie Clark and episode 147 with Whitney Johnson. 00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:51.270 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me Matt Abrahams. 00:19:51.510 --> 00:19:53.100 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:55.230 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:19:55.650 --> 00:19:58.980 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:19:59.070 --> 00:20:01.110 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:20:01.395 --> 00:20:06.195 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and check out fastersmarter.io for 00:20:06.195 --> 00:20:10.425 deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletters. 00:20:10.725 --> 00:20:14.264 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:20:14.325 --> 00:20:19.845 Ask Matt Anythings, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.