[00:00:08.19 - 00:00:10.22] Good morning, good afternoon and good
[00:00:10.22 - 00:00:13.20] evening. Welcome to Rethink Culture, the
[00:00:13.20 - 00:00:15.14] podcast that shines the spotlight on
[00:00:15.14 - 00:00:18.02] leaders of businesses that people love to
[00:00:18.02 - 00:00:21.05] work for. My name is Andreas Konstantinou
[00:00:21.05 - 00:00:24.08] and I'm your host and I see myself as a
[00:00:24.08 - 00:00:27.01] micromanager who turned servant leader and
[00:00:27.01 - 00:00:28.19] in the process developed a personal
[00:00:28.19 - 00:00:31.20] passion for culture. Our latest project at
[00:00:31.20 - 00:00:33.14] Rethink Culture is the Culture Health
[00:00:33.14 - 00:00:35.22] Check, an online service that lets you
[00:00:35.22 - 00:00:38.13] measure your culture so you can manage it.
[00:00:39.22 - 00:00:42.23] Today I have the pleasure of welcoming a
[00:00:42.23 - 00:00:47.01] special guest, Kristi Herold. Kristi is
[00:00:47.01 - 00:00:49.13] the founder and CEO of JAM. It's a
[00:00:49.13 - 00:00:50.22] business that has helped millions of
[00:00:50.22 - 00:00:53.22] people introduce play at work through more
[00:00:53.22 - 00:00:56.10] than 4,000 playful corporate events in
[00:00:56.10 - 00:01:00.02] over 30 countries. JAM has been awarded
[00:01:00.02 - 00:01:03.10] Canada's most admired culture award and
[00:01:03.10 - 00:01:05.04] Kristi has been awarded Canada's most
[00:01:05.04 - 00:01:09.14] powerful women top 100 and she's also the
[00:01:09.14 - 00:01:12.11] best-selling author of the book It Pays to
[00:01:12.11 - 00:01:14.04] Play, which is how I got to know about
[00:01:14.04 - 00:01:17.07] her. Her vision is to get to 1 million
[00:01:17.07 - 00:01:20.13] people playing annually. She also tells me
[00:01:20.13 - 00:01:22.19] she loves to sing and in her 40s she
[00:01:22.19 - 00:01:24.22] decided to teach herself how to play
[00:01:24.22 - 00:01:27.05] guitar so that she could sing along and
[00:01:27.05 - 00:01:29.04] she loves to play anything from cards to
[00:01:29.04 - 00:01:32.22] theater to singing. So with that
[00:01:32.22 - 00:01:34.07] introduction, with that playful
[00:01:34.07 - 00:01:36.07] introduction, very welcome to the Rethink
[00:01:36.07 - 00:01:38.14] Culture podcast, Kristi.
[00:01:38.14 - 00:01:40.01] Thanks so much for having me, Andreas.
[00:01:40.01 - 00:01:41.17] It's nice to be here.
[00:01:41.17 - 00:01:45.11] So where do we start? Tell us what
[00:01:45.11 - 00:01:48.17] JAM does and how you got to founding JAM.
[00:01:48.19 - 00:01:52.14] Well, I started JAM about 28 years ago
[00:01:52.14 - 00:01:55.22] now, in 1996. It was originally called the
[00:01:55.22 - 00:01:58.16] Sport and Social Club and I'd say the
[00:01:58.16 - 00:02:01.07] biggest portion of the organization,
[00:02:01.07 - 00:02:04.13] probably 85% of what we do, is actually
[00:02:04.13 - 00:02:07.10] operating adult recreational sports
[00:02:07.10 - 00:02:10.19] leagues. So think soccer, football,
[00:02:11.10 - 00:02:16.07] basketball, volleyball, curling, like
[00:02:16.07 - 00:02:20.13] ultimate frisbee, softball, kickball, all
[00:02:20.13 - 00:02:23.01] sorts of different types of sports. We
[00:02:23.01 - 00:02:26.07] operate in 25 cities now in Canada and the
[00:02:26.07 - 00:02:28.20] U.S. and I have a team of about 50 full
[00:02:28.20 - 00:02:32.04] -time employees and 500 part-time that are
[00:02:32.04 - 00:02:34.14] helping get thousands and thousands of
[00:02:34.14 - 00:02:38.10] people off the couch every day to play
[00:02:38.10 - 00:02:40.22] recreational sports. So that was the
[00:02:40.22 - 00:02:44.05] initial gist of what the business I
[00:02:44.05 - 00:02:45.22] started and when I started it, it was just
[00:02:45.22 - 00:02:50.16] me back in 1996 and it's grown over the
[00:02:50.16 - 00:02:54.01] years. But then during the pandemic, we
[00:02:54.01 - 00:02:56.10] were told the mandates in Canada were
[00:02:56.10 - 00:02:58.10] incredibly harsh and we lost about 18
[00:02:58.10 - 00:03:00.19] months of revenue. We were not allowed to
[00:03:00.19 - 00:03:02.16] operate our sports leagues. And so it was
[00:03:02.16 - 00:03:04.13] during that time that we started looking,
[00:03:04.16 - 00:03:06.04] well, how can we connect people through
[00:03:06.04 - 00:03:08.07] play, which is our core purpose? How can
[00:03:08.07 - 00:03:10.07] we do that differently because we can't
[00:03:10.07 - 00:03:12.19] play sports right now? And so we started
[00:03:12.19 - 00:03:15.08] these virtual team-building playful events
[00:03:15.08 - 00:03:17.22] online for corporations. We produced over
[00:03:17.22 - 00:03:19.22] 1500 events in that first year for
[00:03:19.22 - 00:03:21.23] companies all around the world and those
[00:03:21.23 - 00:03:24.22] are things like escape rooms, scavenger
[00:03:24.22 - 00:03:26.22] hunts, game shows, all these different
[00:03:26.22 - 00:03:28.23] types of corporate events. And now that
[00:03:28.23 - 00:03:31.13] the pandemic is behind us, we still do
[00:03:31.13 - 00:03:33.07] virtual corporate team-building events,
[00:03:33.08 - 00:03:36.13] but we also do in-person things like field
[00:03:36.13 - 00:03:41.04] days and office Olympics and gosh,
[00:03:41.07 - 00:03:43.10] scavenger hunts, amazing races. We do all
[00:03:43.10 - 00:03:44.16] these different types of corporate events
[00:03:44.16 - 00:03:47.07] for companies all around North America. So
[00:03:47.07 - 00:03:50.01] we're connecting people through play with
[00:03:50.01 - 00:03:51.11] both the adult recreational sports
[00:03:51.11 - 00:03:52.19] leagues, as well as the corporate team
[00:03:52.19 - 00:03:55.10] -building. And that's why I'm just a big
[00:03:55.10 - 00:03:58.11] believer in the power of play for both our
[00:03:58.11 - 00:04:00.22] personal lives and our work lives. And
[00:04:00.22 - 00:04:03.11] that's why I was inspired to write the
[00:04:03.11 - 00:04:05.10] book because we've always had a really
[00:04:05.10 - 00:04:09.02] playful culture at JAM. We have a lot of
[00:04:09.02 - 00:04:10.16] fun with the work we do. It's not just
[00:04:10.16 - 00:04:12.22] about stopping work to play. It's about
[00:04:12.22 - 00:04:15.16] having fun the way we do our work. Like
[00:04:15.16 - 00:04:18.01] every one of our meetings starts with, we
[00:04:18.01 - 00:04:20.10] press play to start. So there's three or
[00:04:20.10 - 00:04:21.20] four minutes where whoever's leading the
[00:04:21.20 - 00:04:24.07] meeting has a playful interaction to get
[00:04:24.07 - 00:04:26.22] things going. There's tons of ways that we
[00:04:26.22 - 00:04:29.07] play inside our day-to-day operations. And
[00:04:29.07 - 00:04:31.08] so I was inspired to write the book to try
[00:04:31.08 - 00:04:33.07] and inspire other people because I've just
[00:04:33.07 - 00:04:35.11] seen the results of it in our own
[00:04:35.11 - 00:04:38.01] organization and now with our clients, how
[00:04:38.01 - 00:04:41.05] powerfully play can impact the workplace culture.
[00:04:41.10 - 00:04:43.13] And what was your aha moment in getting
[00:04:43.13 - 00:04:46.02] into that business, starting that business?
[00:04:46.02 - 00:04:49.10] How did your childhood or your formative
[00:04:49.10 - 00:04:53.07] experiences affect your life's mission,
[00:04:53.07 - 00:04:55.17] which is what I'm hearing is play?
[00:04:58.11 - 00:05:01.02] It's funny. It was only about 10
[00:05:01.02 - 00:05:03.07] years ago that I sort of realized my
[00:05:03.07 - 00:05:05.16] life's purpose is really about connecting
[00:05:05.16 - 00:05:07.04] people through play. But now I'm
[00:05:07.04 - 00:05:09.11] constantly, when I look back, I can see
[00:05:09.11 - 00:05:13.02] all the examples over my life of how I
[00:05:13.02 - 00:05:17.17] connect people. Anyways. And so to answer
[00:05:17.17 - 00:05:19.19] your question, what inspired me to start
[00:05:19.19 - 00:05:21.16] what was originally the sport and social
[00:05:21.16 - 00:05:26.19] club now called JAM? So growing up, I was
[00:05:26.19 - 00:05:28.19] raised in an entrepreneurial household. My
[00:05:28.19 - 00:05:31.16] dad was an entrepreneur. And we were
[00:05:31.16 - 00:05:33.07] really encouraged to work for the things
[00:05:33.07 - 00:05:35.13] that we wanted in our lives. So I ran all
[00:05:35.13 - 00:05:36.22] sorts of little businesses when I was a
[00:05:36.22 - 00:05:39.07] kid, lawn cutting. And I had in
[00:05:39.07 - 00:05:41.11] university, I had a painting, a
[00:05:41.11 - 00:05:43.16] residential painting business. And I had a
[00:05:43.16 - 00:05:44.23] custom clothing business selling
[00:05:45.13 - 00:05:47.16] sweatshirts and baseball hats to teams on
[00:05:47.16 - 00:05:50.08] campus at university. So it was always, I
[00:05:50.08 - 00:05:53.07] knew I wanted to run my own business. And
[00:05:53.07 - 00:05:55.04] when I moved to Toronto, I had been raised
[00:05:55.04 - 00:05:57.04] in a small city about four hours north of
[00:05:57.04 - 00:05:58.13] Toronto. When I moved to Toronto after
[00:05:58.13 - 00:06:00.22] university, I was looking to meet people
[00:06:00.22 - 00:06:02.17] and I didn't know how to meet people. It
[00:06:02.17 - 00:06:05.13] was hard. And I wanted to make friends.
[00:06:05.19 - 00:06:08.19] And so I looked into joining soccer
[00:06:08.19 - 00:06:11.05] league. And there were only really
[00:06:11.05 - 00:06:13.05] competitive women's league. And I was a
[00:06:13.05 - 00:06:15.13] good athlete, but I wasn't a great soccer
[00:06:15.13 - 00:06:19.05] player. And so I'd heard about these adult
[00:06:19.05 - 00:06:21.20] recreational sports leagues in San
[00:06:21.20 - 00:06:23.17] Francisco and one in Chicago. And I
[00:06:23.17 - 00:06:25.22] thought, maybe I'll try starting that in
[00:06:25.22 - 00:06:28.16] Toronto. And that was the inspiration
[00:06:28.16 - 00:06:30.22] behind it. And it's true. The number of
[00:06:30.22 - 00:06:33.23] people who have joined our leagues and
[00:06:33.23 - 00:06:36.22] made best friends for life or have met
[00:06:36.22 - 00:06:39.04] their love match, there have been
[00:06:39.04 - 00:06:41.10] thousands and thousands of marriages and
[00:06:41.10 - 00:06:43.07] babies born because of the people that
[00:06:43.07 - 00:06:45.10] have played in our leagues and met that
[00:06:45.10 - 00:06:48.05] special someone. And just more that people
[00:06:48.05 - 00:06:49.23] are connecting and making great friends or
[00:06:49.23 - 00:06:52.16] people are signing up with a work, a group
[00:06:52.16 - 00:06:55.05] from work and getting to know their work
[00:06:55.05 - 00:06:58.05] colleagues, playing soccer or volleyball
[00:06:58.05 - 00:07:00.01] or basketball. It's a really different way
[00:07:00.01 - 00:07:02.05] to get to know people than sitting around
[00:07:02.05 - 00:07:03.19] a boardroom looking at a spreadsheet.
[00:07:03.19 - 00:07:06.19] Right. And it makes these really fosters
[00:07:06.19 - 00:07:09.10] an incredible relationship. So it's just
[00:07:09.10 - 00:07:12.01] always felt so good. I've loved what I've
[00:07:12.01 - 00:07:14.10] done. I just love what I get to do every
[00:07:14.10 - 00:07:16.08] day. I love what we're doing, how we're
[00:07:16.08 - 00:07:19.04] touching people's lives in such a positive way.
[00:07:19.05 - 00:07:23.07] Have you been able to inspire or how
[00:07:23.07 - 00:07:25.02] do you inspire people at a bigger scale?
[00:07:25.02 - 00:07:27.20] So you said you have lots of teams you're
[00:07:27.20 - 00:07:31.07] enabling and clients in North America.
[00:07:31.22 - 00:07:36.05] But how do you get people in businesses
[00:07:36.05 - 00:07:39.04] to play, to realize the value of play?
[00:07:39.04 - 00:07:42.04] I guess that's why you wrote the book.
[00:07:42.14 - 00:07:43.22] That's why I wrote the book. I do a
[00:07:43.22 - 00:07:46.23] lot of keynote speaking because it's a
[00:07:46.23 - 00:07:48.07] message I'm incredibly passionate about.
[00:07:48.10 - 00:07:50.07] And we have some culture consulting as
[00:07:50.07 - 00:07:51.13] well for companies that are interested,
[00:07:51.19 - 00:07:53.17] like that are kind of like, how how do you
[00:07:53.17 - 00:07:56.19] do this? Like, bring us in and we can it's
[00:07:56.19 - 00:07:59.19] we can help people make their
[00:07:59.19 - 00:08:02.16] organizations more playful and more fun in
[00:08:02.16 - 00:08:05.02] a without stopping the work, because we
[00:08:05.02 - 00:08:06.22] all we have to get the work done, right?
[00:08:06.23 - 00:08:08.14] Like you have to do your presentation.
[00:08:08.23 - 00:08:10.19] You've got to have those weekly touchpoint
[00:08:10.19 - 00:08:13.13] meetings. We need the spreadsheets in our
[00:08:13.13 - 00:08:16.16] lives to get business happening. But it's
[00:08:16.16 - 00:08:19.04] how you do it, how you have fun with the
[00:08:19.04 - 00:08:21.02] work you're doing is what we're really
[00:08:21.02 - 00:08:23.01] we're really good at, you know, and I
[00:08:23.01 - 00:08:25.14] think you were as that one example was the
[00:08:25.14 - 00:08:28.14] how we onboard new employees. You heard
[00:08:28.14 - 00:08:30.23] about that through Joey Coleman. You heard
[00:08:30.23 - 00:08:32.14] Joey Coleman talking about our
[00:08:32.14 - 00:08:36.04] organization. And yeah, like we we have a
[00:08:36.04 - 00:08:39.19] really fun celebration when people arrive
[00:08:39.19 - 00:08:42.07] for their first day of work with us. We're
[00:08:42.07 - 00:08:44.16] all wearing our veterans on our team. When
[00:08:44.16 - 00:08:45.20] you get to your one year mark, you get
[00:08:45.20 - 00:08:47.22] officially drafted to the team as a
[00:08:47.22 - 00:08:50.10] veteran and you get your JAM hockey jersey
[00:08:50.10 - 00:08:52.07] and it's got JAM logo on the front and
[00:08:52.07 - 00:08:54.07] your name and number on the back. And your
[00:08:54.07 - 00:08:57.04] number is the year you started with us. So
[00:08:57.04 - 00:09:00.04] to mine's mine's a 96 I've been around a
[00:09:00.04 - 00:09:03.13] long time. And anyway, so we're all
[00:09:03.13 - 00:09:05.04] wearing our veterans jerseys and anybody
[00:09:05.04 - 00:09:06.17] who's still a rookie has their rookie
[00:09:06.17 - 00:09:08.22] hoodie on. And when that new person walks
[00:09:08.22 - 00:09:11.07] in the door, we're there with the song
[00:09:11.07 - 00:09:13.07] their walk up song is blaring, which we've
[00:09:13.07 - 00:09:14.19] during their application. What's your
[00:09:14.19 - 00:09:16.19] favorite song? You know, we're high fiving
[00:09:16.19 - 00:09:20.01] them walking, welcoming them into they
[00:09:20.01 - 00:09:21.08] come into the boardroom and then they see
[00:09:21.08 - 00:09:22.20] up on the boardroom. All of our remote
[00:09:22.20 - 00:09:26.13] employees are up on the screen. Whoever's
[00:09:26.13 - 00:09:28.10] working from wherever is there to welcome
[00:09:28.10 - 00:09:30.13] them. And then we do a quick, very quick
[00:09:30.13 - 00:09:33.20] round of sort of three silly questions. It
[00:09:33.20 - 00:09:35.10] just gets passed around. Different people
[00:09:35.10 - 00:09:37.07] ask the question of the new the new
[00:09:37.07 - 00:09:38.19] teammate to get to know them very quickly.
[00:09:38.22 - 00:09:40.13] And then they start their day. It
[00:09:40.13 - 00:09:44.04] literally takes five minutes. It's costs
[00:09:44.04 - 00:09:47.16] us nothing. But that's a day those
[00:09:47.16 - 00:09:50.05] teammates will never forget. They're never
[00:09:50.05 - 00:09:52.08] going to forget their first day at JAM. It
[00:09:52.08 - 00:09:54.07] makes them feel welcomed to the team
[00:09:54.07 - 00:09:57.10] immediately and they realize this is a fun
[00:09:57.10 - 00:10:00.05] place to work. I like it here. Right. So
[00:10:00.05 - 00:10:02.20] it's just that's the kind of thing we have
[00:10:02.20 - 00:10:05.08] loads of ways that we integrate
[00:10:05.08 - 00:10:07.16] playfulness into the day to day work. You
[00:10:07.16 - 00:10:09.19] have to onboard people. How do you make
[00:10:09.19 - 00:10:11.10] it? How do you make them feel special?
[00:10:11.19 - 00:10:13.22] Because I want you go through so much work
[00:10:13.22 - 00:10:16.04] recruiting and hiring and training. You
[00:10:16.04 - 00:10:18.05] want them to stick around. Right. So
[00:10:18.05 - 00:10:21.14] you've got to start right away with with
[00:10:21.14 - 00:10:22.16] having them feel great.
[00:10:22.16 - 00:10:23.17] Yeah. The first
[00:10:23.17 - 00:10:26.10] day at work is very much underappreciated
[00:10:26.10 - 00:10:29.10] by most people. I think it's a rule in
[00:10:29.10 - 00:10:31.14] most businesses that you get just, you
[00:10:31.14 - 00:10:34.07] know, no thought put on the first day at
[00:10:34.07 - 00:10:36.04] work other than arranging a few meetings
[00:10:36.04 - 00:10:37.22] for you and, you know, handing you your
[00:10:37.22 - 00:10:39.07] desk and your laptop.
[00:10:39.07 - 00:10:40.16] Yeah.
[00:10:40.16 - 00:10:43.02] When connection is the most important thing you
[00:10:43.02 - 00:10:44.16] can do on your first day. Right?
[00:10:44.16 - 00:10:45.19] Absolutely.
[00:10:45.19 - 00:10:48.10] Joey puts it very well. Joey Coleman.
[00:10:48.10 - 00:10:50.20] That this is when you're starting
[00:10:50.20 - 00:10:56.08] on a new job. You've been really dreaming
[00:10:56.08 - 00:11:00.02] about this for a few weeks, at least, if
[00:11:00.02 - 00:11:03.04] not months. And, you know, if you think
[00:11:03.04 - 00:11:05.13] about what other events in life you really
[00:11:07.17 - 00:11:10.07] develop such an anticipation for, like a
[00:11:10.07 - 00:11:13.14] wedding, for example, or a very special
[00:11:13.14 - 00:11:16.10] anniversary. And there's so much attached
[00:11:16.10 - 00:11:19.19] to the social occasions. But we have
[00:11:19.19 - 00:11:23.10] literally no celebration
[00:11:23.10 - 00:11:24.17] Around that first day at work.
[00:11:24.17 - 00:11:26.10] around the first day at work. Yeah.
[00:11:26.13 - 00:11:28.19] It's really true. And yeah, and I
[00:11:28.19 - 00:11:31.10] think that connection piece is so
[00:11:31.10 - 00:11:33.19] important. In fact, something I don't
[00:11:33.19 - 00:11:35.07] think I've even told Joey about this yet,
[00:11:35.07 - 00:11:37.13] but we just started this in October. It's
[00:11:37.13 - 00:11:39.16] been really well received. I was thinking
[00:11:39.16 - 00:11:43.02] about when my kids started off at in high
[00:11:43.02 - 00:11:45.11] school, they were put in these houses,
[00:11:45.19 - 00:11:47.22] sort of like Harry Potter, you know, the
[00:11:47.22 - 00:11:49.19] Harry Potter, they have those four
[00:11:49.19 - 00:11:51.20] different houses. And I thought that that
[00:11:51.20 - 00:11:53.13] would be a really fun thing to do at JAM.
[00:11:53.23 - 00:11:57.04] So we created four houses, we launched in
[00:11:57.04 - 00:11:59.13] at our annual retreat, our Jamboree, we
[00:11:59.13 - 00:12:01.23] call it, we launched this, and everyone
[00:12:01.23 - 00:12:05.04] was drafted into a house. And so now when
[00:12:05.04 - 00:12:06.16] someone when it's someone's first day,
[00:12:06.19 - 00:12:08.04] right after we've done their high five
[00:12:08.04 - 00:12:11.10] welcome, we also inform them of what house
[00:12:11.10 - 00:12:13.19] they've been drafted into. And they get
[00:12:13.19 - 00:12:16.10] their house t shirt. So we have four
[00:12:16.10 - 00:12:18.04] houses, and they're all different colors.
[00:12:18.10 - 00:12:21.04] And whatever house you're in, you kind of
[00:12:21.04 - 00:12:23.22] compete throughout the year, doing
[00:12:23.22 - 00:12:27.08] community give back initiatives, or just
[00:12:27.08 - 00:12:30.02] playful competitions at health or health
[00:12:30.02 - 00:12:32.01] challenges. And we constantly have fun
[00:12:32.01 - 00:12:33.13] things going on. And we sort of do it
[00:12:33.13 - 00:12:36.04] house against house. So it creates
[00:12:36.04 - 00:12:38.13] stronger connections within smaller groups
[00:12:38.13 - 00:12:40.19] right away. And it's every house is
[00:12:40.19 - 00:12:42.22] divvied up so that you're not just getting
[00:12:42.22 - 00:12:45.07] to know the people you work with in your
[00:12:45.07 - 00:12:47.02] department, you're actually getting to
[00:12:47.02 - 00:12:49.19] know people cross departmentally, because
[00:12:49.19 - 00:12:51.19] you got these house opportunities to have
[00:12:51.19 - 00:12:54.20] fun competitions with and stuff. So it's
[00:12:54.20 - 00:12:56.07] just another really, again, it's like
[00:12:56.07 - 00:12:58.14] we're still getting the work done. But
[00:12:58.14 - 00:13:00.13] we've got these frameworks in place that
[00:13:00.13 - 00:13:02.11] allow us to have a lot of fun with the way
[00:13:02.11 - 00:13:04.20] we get our work done, which then form
[00:13:04.20 - 00:13:07.01] stronger connections and make people want
[00:13:07.01 - 00:13:09.02] to stay working with JAM because it's a
[00:13:09.02 - 00:13:10.01] great place to work.
[00:13:10.01 - 00:13:11.04] Do you get things
[00:13:11.04 - 00:13:13.22] wrong as you experiment and try new fun
[00:13:13.22 - 00:13:16.02] things to play? Is there something that
[00:13:16.02 - 00:13:18.05] you tried and didn't go as you expected?
[00:13:18.22 - 00:13:20.13] Do we get things wrong? I mean,
[00:13:20.16 - 00:13:23.04] absolutely. I'm sure we have. I can't, I
[00:13:23.04 - 00:13:24.22] can't think off the top of my head of
[00:13:24.22 - 00:13:27.01] anything that's gone, you know,
[00:13:27.01 - 00:13:30.13] desperately sideways. But certainly
[00:13:30.13 - 00:13:33.04] something we also have a mayor and the
[00:13:33.04 - 00:13:36.04] mayor, every three, the mayor's in place
[00:13:36.04 - 00:13:37.17] for four months, and the mayor gets a
[00:13:37.17 - 00:13:39.19] little budget. And it's their job to plan
[00:13:39.19 - 00:13:42.10] social events during their term as mayor.
[00:13:43.13 - 00:13:46.08] And, you know, over time, we've sort of
[00:13:46.08 - 00:13:47.22] learned that sometimes the mayor was
[00:13:47.22 - 00:13:49.10] starting to take a little too much
[00:13:49.10 - 00:13:51.10] initiative to, we sort of had to say,
[00:13:51.13 - 00:13:53.02] okay, come on, like, that's a bit much.
[00:13:53.07 - 00:13:55.11] Let's slow that down, you know, or let's
[00:13:55.11 - 00:13:57.19] dial that back a bit. We sort of the
[00:13:57.19 - 00:13:59.23] mayor's starting to get their, their
[00:13:59.23 - 00:14:02.20] groove. I mean, it's been years that we've
[00:14:02.20 - 00:14:05.04] been doing running these mayor campaigns,
[00:14:05.05 - 00:14:07.07] and they're super silly. I don't know,
[00:14:07.08 - 00:14:10.05] over time, everything morphs and changes.
[00:14:10.05 - 00:14:12.07] That's natural. And we just try and keep
[00:14:12.07 - 00:14:13.19] finding better ways. I mean, find a better
[00:14:13.19 - 00:14:15.23] way is one of our core values. So we just
[00:14:15.23 - 00:14:17.19] keep trying to find better ways to improve upon
[00:14:17.19 - 00:14:19.14] the fun that we have and the work we have,
[00:14:19.14 - 00:14:22.16] you know, all aspects of the business.
[00:14:22.16 - 00:14:24.14] And is play for everyone? So
[00:14:24.14 - 00:14:26.16] when the client comes and says, maybe it's
[00:14:26.16 - 00:14:28.22] not for us, because we're this, you know,
[00:14:28.22 - 00:14:32.01] very serious institution. But is it for
[00:14:32.01 - 00:14:34.04] everyone? Is it for every walk of life or
[00:14:34.04 - 00:14:35.22] every walk of employee?
[00:14:36.05 - 00:14:39.01] So I believe it's
[00:14:39.01 - 00:14:42.14] for everybody. And would you let me ask
[00:14:42.14 - 00:14:46.05] you this? Would you rather work with an
[00:14:46.05 - 00:14:49.01] accounting firm, very important, serious
[00:14:49.01 - 00:14:51.17] business, right? Or lawyers, your legal
[00:14:51.17 - 00:14:53.13] firm? Would you rather work with a legal
[00:14:53.13 - 00:14:56.13] team, or an accounting team that don't
[00:14:56.13 - 00:14:58.16] ever have any fun, and they don't know how
[00:14:58.16 - 00:15:00.05] to laugh at themselves and have some
[00:15:00.05 - 00:15:02.07] laughs? Or would you rather work with
[00:15:02.07 - 00:15:04.17] accountants and lawyers that are humans,
[00:15:05.01 - 00:15:07.13] that can have have some laughs and have
[00:15:07.13 - 00:15:10.08] some fun, and make a little time to have
[00:15:10.08 - 00:15:12.19] fun for themselves? I know what I would
[00:15:12.19 - 00:15:15.11] rather. And so, you know, as an example,
[00:15:15.16 - 00:15:17.17] our accounting firm, Henderson Partners,
[00:15:17.22 - 00:15:20.11] we've worked with them for 28 years. They
[00:15:20.11 - 00:15:22.22] are also one of our clients. They do
[00:15:22.22 - 00:15:25.04] corporate team building events all the
[00:15:25.04 - 00:15:27.19] time. They highlight their core values.
[00:15:27.22 - 00:15:29.13] They have so much fun with the work
[00:15:29.13 - 00:15:31.05] they're doing. And they're an accounting
[00:15:31.05 - 00:15:32.22] firm. So I'm kind of like, you know,
[00:15:32.23 - 00:15:34.17] anyone who says, Oh, we run a really
[00:15:34.17 - 00:15:36.22] serious business, we can't be having fun.
[00:15:37.08 - 00:15:40.08] Well, good luck. Good luck retaining your
[00:15:40.08 - 00:15:43.04] people. Because just because you run a
[00:15:43.04 - 00:15:46.01] serious business doesn't mean your people
[00:15:46.01 - 00:15:48.19] can't be having fun with the work they're
[00:15:48.19 - 00:15:50.10] doing every day and working with the
[00:15:50.10 - 00:15:51.14] people they work with. It's about
[00:15:51.14 - 00:15:54.23] fostering friendships. The easiest way to
[00:15:54.23 - 00:15:57.10] foster friendships is by spending some
[00:15:57.10 - 00:16:00.01] time playing together. That's how you get
[00:16:00.01 - 00:16:03.10] to know people as real people. And that's
[00:16:03.10 - 00:16:05.07] when people have friends at work, studies
[00:16:05.07 - 00:16:07.08] have shown, they're far more likely to
[00:16:07.08 - 00:16:09.07] want to stay working at your organization.
[00:16:09.08 - 00:16:11.01] If they don't have a close friend at work,
[00:16:11.05 - 00:16:13.02] far likelier they're looking for another
[00:16:13.02 - 00:16:14.22] job somewhere. Like the studies prove
[00:16:14.22 - 00:16:17.17] that. So I'm like, yeah, carry on running
[00:16:17.17 - 00:16:20.01] your boring, serious business. But if
[00:16:20.01 - 00:16:21.11] you're not going to have a little fun with
[00:16:21.11 - 00:16:23.11] the boring, serious work you do, you're
[00:16:23.11 - 00:16:24.19] not going to have a lot of people wanting
[00:16:24.19 - 00:16:28.08] to stay there for very long. So I think
[00:16:28.08 - 00:16:31.10] play is for everybody. I would go toe to toe
[00:16:31.10 - 00:16:34.22] with anyone who says they have no time for fun.
[00:16:35.19 - 00:16:37.07] There's a couple more benefits
[00:16:37.07 - 00:16:40.19] that I'm realizing as you were talking. So
[00:16:40.19 - 00:16:45.20] one is, it might be Socrates or some other
[00:16:45.20 - 00:16:47.19] ancient Greek philosopher who said that
[00:16:47.19 - 00:16:52.07] you can learn more about someone through
[00:16:52.07 - 00:16:54.14] an hour of play than a year of
[00:16:54.14 - 00:16:57.05] conversation.
[00:16:57.05 - 00:16:58.11] A hundred percent. I use
[00:16:58.11 - 00:17:00.22] that in my keynote. And that's thousands
[00:17:00.22 - 00:17:04.22] of years old, that quote, right? So true.
[00:17:05.01 - 00:17:07.22] You learn so much from playing together.
[00:17:08.11 - 00:17:10.19] You get to know people as human beings.
[00:17:11.07 - 00:17:13.19] People then, once you feel comfortable
[00:17:13.19 - 00:17:16.19] with someone, you're far more likely to
[00:17:16.19 - 00:17:19.17] trust them. So you're willing to be
[00:17:19.17 - 00:17:22.22] vulnerable with them, which then means if
[00:17:22.22 - 00:17:25.13] I have a crazy idea in my head, but I
[00:17:25.13 - 00:17:28.16] don't entirely trust you, I might not be
[00:17:28.16 - 00:17:29.22] willing to put it out there because I'm
[00:17:29.22 - 00:17:31.11] afraid you're going to laugh at me or make
[00:17:31.11 - 00:17:33.10] fun of me. And so then I'm just like, I'm
[00:17:33.10 - 00:17:35.20] going to keep that idea to myself. What if
[00:17:35.20 - 00:17:38.04] I have an idea to come up with this
[00:17:38.04 - 00:17:41.07] smartphone that can do all these fancy
[00:17:41.07 - 00:17:43.16] things? And I kept that to myself, right?
[00:17:43.22 - 00:17:46.02] You know what I'm saying? What if I have
[00:17:46.02 - 00:17:49.02] this groundbreaking idea? If I'm not
[00:17:49.02 - 00:17:51.20] comfortable with the people I work with to
[00:17:51.20 - 00:17:54.07] put it out there, what could the business
[00:17:54.07 - 00:17:57.04] be missing out on? Whereas if you have
[00:17:57.04 - 00:18:01.05] this workplace that embodies friendship
[00:18:01.05 - 00:18:03.16] and trust and vulnerability and safety
[00:18:03.16 - 00:18:06.05] amongst people are going to be very
[00:18:06.05 - 00:18:09.10] willing to throw out crazy ideas. 99% of
[00:18:09.10 - 00:18:11.20] them might be dumb, but there might be one
[00:18:11.20 - 00:18:14.01] piece of gold there that could drastically
[00:18:14.01 - 00:18:16.04] change your business. So that's why
[00:18:16.04 - 00:18:17.19] fostering friendships. It's another reason
[00:18:17.19 - 00:18:19.20] why fostering friendships is incredibly
[00:18:19.20 - 00:18:22.10] powerful. Another reason we're big
[00:18:22.10 - 00:18:24.16] believers in team, teamwork, team. I
[00:18:24.16 - 00:18:26.01] always talk about my team. They're my
[00:18:26.01 - 00:18:29.08] team. We are not a family to be clear. I
[00:18:29.08 - 00:18:32.07] don't believe that family has a place and
[00:18:32.07 - 00:18:34.13] it's important and it's outside of work.
[00:18:35.04 - 00:18:37.19] Work is a team. It's like a sports team.
[00:18:37.22 - 00:18:41.11] You must perform to stay on a team. You
[00:18:41.11 - 00:18:44.22] don't get unconditional love on a team
[00:18:44.22 - 00:18:47.07] like you should in your family. Family is
[00:18:47.07 - 00:18:49.13] for unconditional love. Team, you've got
[00:18:49.13 - 00:18:52.10] to perform. So being part of this team,
[00:18:53.13 - 00:18:56.01] you can still have lots of friends on your
[00:18:56.01 - 00:18:58.07] team, right? You think about these most
[00:18:58.07 - 00:19:00.07] professional sports teams in the world. A
[00:19:00.07 - 00:19:01.19] lot of these people are friends with each
[00:19:01.19 - 00:19:03.16] other. These women playing soccer together
[00:19:03.16 - 00:19:05.16] and men playing football together. They're
[00:19:05.16 - 00:19:07.17] good friends with each other, but they
[00:19:07.17 - 00:19:09.01] still have to perform to stay on that
[00:19:09.01 - 00:19:11.07] team. So what happens when you've built
[00:19:11.07 - 00:19:13.02] this fostered friendships inside your
[00:19:13.02 - 00:19:16.14] workplace, amongst your team, people are
[00:19:16.14 - 00:19:18.19] looking out for that. It's a shared goal.
[00:19:18.22 - 00:19:20.22] We're all working together towards the
[00:19:20.22 - 00:19:23.10] vision of the company, which hopefully the
[00:19:23.10 - 00:19:25.01] leaders of the company have laid out
[00:19:25.01 - 00:19:27.07] clearly. Everyone knows what we're trying
[00:19:27.07 - 00:19:29.11] to accomplish. How are we going to do
[00:19:29.11 - 00:19:32.23] this? I'm comfortable sharing ideas. If I
[00:19:32.23 - 00:19:35.05] feel like I've got a good handle on my
[00:19:35.05 - 00:19:38.04] work today and I look over at my friend,
[00:19:38.22 - 00:19:41.10] Steve, and I go, Steve looks kind of
[00:19:41.10 - 00:19:44.04] stressed. He's overwhelmed today. I'm kind
[00:19:44.04 - 00:19:45.23] of done what I need to do right now. I
[00:19:45.23 - 00:19:48.13] should see if he's okay. Hey, Steve, do
[00:19:48.13 - 00:19:50.07] you need a hand with anything? Can I help
[00:19:50.07 - 00:19:53.11] you? Cause you seem underwater. If I don't
[00:19:53.11 - 00:19:55.22] care about Steve as a friend, if he's, if
[00:19:55.22 - 00:19:58.10] I'm not close to him, I mean, look over at
[00:19:58.10 - 00:19:59.23] Steve to go, God, he looks stressed. I'm
[00:19:59.23 - 00:20:02.11] out of here. That's the difference. When
[00:20:02.11 - 00:20:05.13] you foster friendships amongst your team,
[00:20:05.14 - 00:20:07.20] you're fostering a willingness to want to
[00:20:07.20 - 00:20:10.11] help each other out. So pick each other up
[00:20:10.11 - 00:20:13.01] when you're down and, and help make
[00:20:13.01 - 00:20:15.01] everybody shine together. If you don't
[00:20:15.01 - 00:20:17.04] have friends amongst your teammates, that
[00:20:17.04 - 00:20:19.10] doesn't happen. So there's a lot of
[00:20:19.10 - 00:20:21.13] powerful reasons why integrating
[00:20:21.13 - 00:20:23.22] playfulness in the workplace makes huge,
[00:20:23.22 - 00:20:26.05] huge impacts at the end of the line on the
[00:20:26.05 - 00:20:27.13] business, you know.
[00:20:27.14 - 00:20:28.13] And to build on what
[00:20:28.13 - 00:20:31.13] you said earlier, vulnerability. So I'm a
[00:20:31.13 - 00:20:34.04] big believer. I consider it de facto
[00:20:34.04 - 00:20:37.06] actually trust is based on vulnerability.
[00:20:37.16 - 00:20:40.13] This is the notion and framework pioneered
[00:20:40.13 - 00:20:43.01] among others by Patrick Lencioni in his
[00:20:43.01 - 00:20:49.20] five dysfunctions of a team. And he
[00:20:49.20 - 00:20:52.04] explains it very nicely. And then also the
[00:20:52.04 - 00:20:54.10] other one, which I look up to is Brené
[00:20:54.10 - 00:20:56.10] Brown, who talks about that without
[00:20:56.10 - 00:20:58.22] vulnerability, you carry this 10 ton
[00:20:58.22 - 00:21:01.04] shield, which you pretend being someone
[00:21:01.04 - 00:21:04.02] else. And then you are because you want to
[00:21:04.02 - 00:21:06.05] protect yourself, but that essentially
[00:21:06.05 - 00:21:09.01] blocks you both from being in touch with
[00:21:09.01 - 00:21:11.08] your true self, but also from meaningful
[00:21:11.08 - 00:21:14.13] interactions with your colleagues. So
[00:21:14.13 - 00:21:19.10] whichever way you look at it, we know that
[00:21:19.10 - 00:21:22.02] play creates vulnerability naturally and
[00:21:22.02 - 00:21:25.11] creates trust therefore. And I've never
[00:21:25.11 - 00:21:30.04] ever heard of play as a technique for
[00:21:30.04 - 00:21:33.22] facilitating vulnerability and people do
[00:21:33.22 - 00:21:38.16] workshops and do kind of, um, you know,
[00:21:39.01 - 00:21:40.22] StrengthsFinders and various different
[00:21:40.22 - 00:21:43.17] things for creating trust, but play is such a
[00:21:43.17 - 00:21:45.07] natural way of creating vulnerability.
[00:21:45.07 - 00:21:47.04] It's so natural. Yeah. Think about like
[00:21:47.04 - 00:21:49.16] improv, you know, you do an improv class,
[00:21:49.16 - 00:21:51.01] you're playing, right? You're acting,
[00:21:51.05 - 00:21:53.05] you're making, and you have to be so
[00:21:53.05 - 00:21:57.02] vulnerable to perform in front of people.
[00:21:57.13 - 00:22:00.10] Right. So, um, like improv is a perfect
[00:22:00.10 - 00:22:03.01] example of, of playing and being
[00:22:03.01 - 00:22:05.13] vulnerable and trusting your teammates to
[00:22:05.13 - 00:22:07.13] be okay with you being vulnerable that
[00:22:07.13 - 00:22:10.10] way. And, and then at the end of a improv
[00:22:10.10 - 00:22:11.22] session, you know, you're having some
[00:22:11.22 - 00:22:14.08] laughs together and you're like, that was
[00:22:14.08 - 00:22:15.17] hilarious when, and all of a sudden now
[00:22:15.17 - 00:22:17.20] you've, you've fostered this friendship
[00:22:17.20 - 00:22:19.04] with someone that you may not have
[00:22:19.04 - 00:22:21.04] otherwise. And so then you bring that back
[00:22:21.04 - 00:22:24.22] into the office and what a powerful, you
[00:22:24.22 - 00:22:26.08] know, what a powerful connection you've
[00:22:26.08 - 00:22:29.22] just created. Um, I know if you ask any of
[00:22:29.22 - 00:22:32.01] my employees what their favorite thing
[00:22:32.01 - 00:22:33.19] about working at JAM is, they will a
[00:22:33.19 - 00:22:35.20] hundred percent, like I'd, I'd be willing
[00:22:35.20 - 00:22:38.10] to bet it's over 90%. The answer would say
[00:22:39.01 - 00:22:41.22] the people because they've fostered
[00:22:41.22 - 00:22:43.16] friendships with these people because
[00:22:43.16 - 00:22:46.01] we've created opportunities for them to
[00:22:46.01 - 00:22:49.13] foster friendships. Right. So it's a, it's
[00:22:49.13 - 00:22:51.10] a really powerful thing. And the people
[00:22:51.10 - 00:22:55.19] who join, are they naturally open to play
[00:22:55.19 - 00:23:01.00] or do they drop their shield when they join?
[00:23:01.23 - 00:23:05.16] Οur teammates? Um, well, that's a
[00:23:05.16 - 00:23:09.04] good question. I mean, we, when, when
[00:23:09.04 - 00:23:13.04] we're, when we hire new employees, we're
[00:23:13.04 - 00:23:15.20] always, there's some playful aspects to
[00:23:15.20 - 00:23:17.10] the interview process. Actually, our
[00:23:17.10 - 00:23:19.16] interview, the first interview anyone goes
[00:23:19.16 - 00:23:22.05] through is a group interview. So it's not
[00:23:22.05 - 00:23:24.13] a one-on-one interview. You're sitting in
[00:23:24.13 - 00:23:26.01] a room with eight or 10 people. So we're
[00:23:26.01 - 00:23:27.13] immediately watching how are people
[00:23:27.13 - 00:23:30.01] interacting with each other and are they
[00:23:30.01 - 00:23:31.11] willing to have some fun? And we taught,
[00:23:31.11 - 00:23:33.10] ask some silly questions right off the top
[00:23:33.10 - 00:23:35.13] to light, just loosen the mood a little
[00:23:35.13 - 00:23:38.13] bit. And you sort of see, and now we are
[00:23:38.13 - 00:23:40.23] never, ever looking for, we don't really
[00:23:40.23 - 00:23:43.20] call it, we don't look for cultural fit.
[00:23:43.20 - 00:23:47.01] We look for culture compliments. So we
[00:23:47.01 - 00:23:48.07] want, we don't, we're not looking for
[00:23:48.07 - 00:23:50.16] everyone to fit the exact same mold, but
[00:23:50.16 - 00:23:52.14] we want people who will compliment our
[00:23:52.14 - 00:23:55.19] culture and enjoy, you know, if someone
[00:23:55.19 - 00:23:58.02] doesn't enjoy play, they're probably not
[00:23:58.02 - 00:23:59.16] going to enjoy working at JAM. It's
[00:23:59.16 - 00:24:01.05] probably not the right thing. Like if
[00:24:01.05 - 00:24:03.19] they're just can't laugh or can't have
[00:24:03.19 - 00:24:05.14] some fun, it may not be the right place
[00:24:05.14 - 00:24:07.08] for them. And that's okay. Like JAM's not
[00:24:07.08 - 00:24:11.08] for everybody. But most people who join, I
[00:24:11.08 - 00:24:15.04] think immediately realize like with that
[00:24:15.04 - 00:24:17.08] onboarding, they're like, oh, this is a
[00:24:17.08 - 00:24:19.10] group that likes to have fun. And yeah, we
[00:24:19.10 - 00:24:21.08] do. We like to work hard and we like to
[00:24:21.08 - 00:24:24.13] have fun. And, and so I think it just
[00:24:24.13 - 00:24:27.13] helps finding ways to connect people, to
[00:24:27.13 - 00:24:30.01] get to know each other personally, a
[00:24:30.01 - 00:24:32.11] little like as fostering those friendship
[00:24:32.11 - 00:24:35.19] opportunities does allow for that shield,
[00:24:35.19 - 00:24:38.13] whether they've had it or not, it
[00:24:38.13 - 00:24:40.17] definitely allows for them to freedom of
[00:24:40.17 - 00:24:42.23] it because they realize it's a safe place
[00:24:42.23 - 00:24:44.14] to be who they are.
[00:24:44.14 - 00:24:45.10] Do you ever feel that
[00:24:45.10 - 00:24:47.17] performance antagonizes play?
[00:24:49.22 - 00:24:51.13] I'm not sure I understand the question.
[00:24:51.13 - 00:24:53.22] Performance antagonizes...
[00:24:53.22 - 00:24:56.01] Yeah. If performance go is at
[00:24:56.01 - 00:24:57.23] the detriment of play or plays at the
[00:24:57.23 - 00:25:01.04] detriment of performance, if one is in
[00:25:01.04 - 00:25:02.22] conflict with the other. Yeah. Have you
[00:25:02.22 - 00:25:04.14] ever seen that?
[00:25:05.07 - 00:25:06.01] I mean, there have
[00:25:06.01 - 00:25:07.17] definitely been times, I'm not going to
[00:25:07.17 - 00:25:10.10] lie. There have been times where, you
[00:25:10.10 - 00:25:12.02] know, because we do press play to start
[00:25:12.02 - 00:25:13.19] our meetings when we have four or more
[00:25:13.19 - 00:25:15.10] people in a meeting, there have been some
[00:25:15.10 - 00:25:17.23] times where I'm like, we're short on time
[00:25:17.23 - 00:25:19.13] today. Like we got to get this done. And
[00:25:19.13 - 00:25:22.11] we, you know, very occasionally we skip
[00:25:22.11 - 00:25:24.14] it, but it's not actually great to skip
[00:25:24.14 - 00:25:26.04] it. Like it doesn't feel good to skip it.
[00:25:26.04 - 00:25:29.14] During the pandemic. This is actually one
[00:25:29.14 - 00:25:31.02] of the reasons I wanted to write the book
[00:25:31.02 - 00:25:35.10] as well. During the pandemic, when we were
[00:25:35.10 - 00:25:38.05] lost 18 months, as I told you of, of
[00:25:38.05 - 00:25:40.10] revenue very early in the pandemic, I
[00:25:40.10 - 00:25:41.19] didn't know what was going on. I didn't
[00:25:41.19 - 00:25:43.22] know what was going to happen. We, we, we
[00:25:43.22 - 00:25:46.05] were very scared. It was a very scary
[00:25:46.05 - 00:25:48.13] time. I was worried that this business I'd
[00:25:48.13 - 00:25:50.19] built for 25 years might go bankrupt. I
[00:25:50.19 - 00:25:52.02] was scared that that could potentially
[00:25:52.02 - 00:25:54.20] happen. So we were cutting costs, left,
[00:25:54.20 - 00:25:57.05] right, and center. We stopped all our
[00:25:57.05 - 00:25:58.14] cultural initiatives. In fact, the
[00:25:58.14 - 00:26:00.22] veterans jersey I talked about, we had
[00:26:00.22 - 00:26:02.16] some people who should have been getting
[00:26:02.16 - 00:26:04.11] their veterans jersey within that first
[00:26:04.11 - 00:26:05.19] six months of the pandemic. And I was
[00:26:05.19 - 00:26:07.16] like, nope, we're not spending money on
[00:26:07.16 - 00:26:09.07] veterans jerseys. We're not spending money
[00:26:09.07 - 00:26:12.07] on, like we cut all additional culture
[00:26:12.07 - 00:26:14.10] expenses. We were, you know, we were at
[00:26:14.10 - 00:26:17.04] war effectively. I was like this general
[00:26:17.04 - 00:26:19.02] that was trying to keep the ship afloat.
[00:26:19.10 - 00:26:21.22] And it was really stressful and really
[00:26:21.22 - 00:26:24.05] hard. And we cut kind of all the fun got
[00:26:24.05 - 00:26:26.19] lost. And about six months into the
[00:26:26.19 - 00:26:29.07] pandemic, even though we still had, you
[00:26:29.07 - 00:26:31.10] know, lost a lot of revenue and business
[00:26:31.10 - 00:26:34.19] was still really brutal. I realized our
[00:26:34.19 - 00:26:38.05] culture was taking a huge hit. It wasn't
[00:26:38.05 - 00:26:40.22] fun to work at JAM anymore. People were
[00:26:40.22 - 00:26:44.04] down and I was thinking, why am I cutting
[00:26:44.04 - 00:26:48.13] these very small costs and time? We do a
[00:26:48.13 - 00:26:50.16] core value award once a month. We'd
[00:26:50.16 - 00:26:52.16] stopped with the core value awards because
[00:26:52.16 - 00:26:55.01] we just were like, so trying to serve. We
[00:26:55.01 - 00:26:58.08] were in survival mode. And so I realized
[00:26:58.08 - 00:27:02.08] we've, we've done something wrong. We've
[00:27:02.08 - 00:27:05.13] let play go because we thought if we put
[00:27:05.13 - 00:27:07.07] it aside, we'll be able to focus and get
[00:27:07.07 - 00:27:10.01] more performance. It wasn't true. Quite
[00:27:10.01 - 00:27:12.04] the opposite. We started to lose people
[00:27:12.04 - 00:27:13.23] during the pandemic. And we were like, Oh
[00:27:13.23 - 00:27:17.01] my, like it was, it was a horrible time.
[00:27:17.05 - 00:27:19.10] So I was like, we got to get this back.
[00:27:19.10 - 00:27:21.22] We've got to introduce reintroduce our
[00:27:21.22 - 00:27:23.17] culture initiatives. We brought back our
[00:27:23.17 - 00:27:25.07] mayor. We brought back our veterans
[00:27:25.07 - 00:27:27.10] jerseys. We brought back our core value
[00:27:27.10 - 00:27:29.07] awards. You know, these aren't expensive
[00:27:29.07 - 00:27:32.05] things to do, but it brought back, it
[00:27:32.05 - 00:27:34.07] started to rebuild our culture and
[00:27:34.07 - 00:27:36.16] reinvigorate. And now in hindsight, I
[00:27:36.16 - 00:27:39.01] realized like, I will never get rid of
[00:27:39.01 - 00:27:41.07] those things more important than ever
[00:27:41.07 - 00:27:42.23] actually, when things are stressful and
[00:27:42.23 - 00:27:45.14] people are down and it's a scary time for
[00:27:45.14 - 00:27:47.07] a business, it's actually more important
[00:27:47.07 - 00:27:49.16] than ever to be celebrating your core
[00:27:49.16 - 00:27:52.14] values and to be having some laughs and to
[00:27:52.14 - 00:27:54.22] be celebrating great work being done. And
[00:27:54.22 - 00:27:58.07] instead of cutting all of those things. So
[00:27:58.07 - 00:28:02.23] I lived it. I lived it. And we actually in
[00:28:02.23 - 00:28:04.23] my, in my book, I talk about two different
[00:28:04.23 - 00:28:07.08] employees who left during the pandemic
[00:28:07.08 - 00:28:09.22] because they, it'd be, you know, they
[00:28:09.22 - 00:28:11.19] wanted a new career opportunity. They
[00:28:11.19 - 00:28:14.04] have, they came back because of our
[00:28:14.04 - 00:28:15.07] culture. In fact, there's actually, we've
[00:28:15.07 - 00:28:16.22] had three different teammates in the last
[00:28:16.22 - 00:28:19.16] four years that left for new career
[00:28:19.16 - 00:28:22.05] opportunities and to earn more money. And
[00:28:22.05 - 00:28:24.07] they came back to JAM for culture because
[00:28:24.07 - 00:28:25.13] they were like, I've worked at this other
[00:28:25.13 - 00:28:28.05] place. I was making more money, but I was
[00:28:28.05 - 00:28:29.22] miserable because nobody cared about me as
[00:28:29.22 - 00:28:32.11] a friend. And they've come back because we
[00:28:32.11 - 00:28:34.13] have a, we're a fun place to work. We care
[00:28:34.13 - 00:28:38.11] about our people, as people, as friends.
[00:28:38.11 - 00:28:39.17] Yeah. I imagine it must be really
[00:28:39.17 - 00:28:43.16] hard to land on a job that doesn't care
[00:28:43.16 - 00:28:45.19] about culture if you've been working for
[00:28:45.19 - 00:28:48.10] JAM because you're all about fun and
[00:28:48.10 - 00:28:49.10] culture. Right?
[00:28:49.23 - 00:28:51.11] And we actually, I really
[00:28:51.11 - 00:28:53.04] try and impress upon our people and
[00:28:53.04 - 00:28:55.19] culture team when we are hiring, if it's
[00:28:55.19 - 00:28:57.13] possible, and it's not always possible,
[00:28:57.14 - 00:29:00.01] but if it's possible, try and hire,
[00:29:00.07 - 00:29:02.23] recruit and hire people, not fresh out of
[00:29:02.23 - 00:29:05.01] college or university, try and get people
[00:29:05.01 - 00:29:07.07] who are two or three, two or three years
[00:29:07.07 - 00:29:09.13] into their workplace experience, because
[00:29:09.13 - 00:29:11.23] then they have had experience and have
[00:29:11.23 - 00:29:14.04] something to compare to. If they start
[00:29:14.04 - 00:29:16.10] their career journeys at JAM, they'll
[00:29:16.10 - 00:29:17.22] never have anything else to compare to.
[00:29:17.23 - 00:29:19.17] And they might not realize how good it is.
[00:29:20.10 - 00:29:22.19] So that's why we, and I have a client that
[00:29:22.19 - 00:29:24.17] I write about in my book, Barry Glassman
[00:29:24.17 - 00:29:27.02] at Glassman Wealth in Washington, DC. He
[00:29:27.02 - 00:29:28.19] does the exact same thing. They are big
[00:29:28.19 - 00:29:32.07] believers in recruiting from people after
[00:29:32.07 - 00:29:34.08] they've had a few years of work, not fresh
[00:29:34.08 - 00:29:36.19] out of college. And now with certain jobs,
[00:29:36.19 - 00:29:38.10] you need someone fresh out of school,
[00:29:38.10 - 00:29:40.14] which is fine or internships or whatever,
[00:29:40.14 - 00:29:43.07] but it's always a great, I think it's a
[00:29:43.07 - 00:29:45.16] great strategy to try and make sure people
[00:29:45.16 - 00:29:48.07] know how good they've got it by having had
[00:29:48.07 - 00:29:49.19] some experience elsewhere.
[00:29:49.22 - 00:29:50.19] And you talked
[00:29:50.19 - 00:29:52.13] about the core value exercise. I'm
[00:29:52.13 - 00:29:54.18] curious. So tell me more.
[00:29:56.00 - 00:29:57.04] So the, we have
[00:29:57.04 - 00:29:59.13] a core value, we do core value awards. So
[00:29:59.13 - 00:30:01.17] we have, we've established our core values
[00:30:01.17 - 00:30:05.13] probably 12, 13 years ago. And our six
[00:30:05.13 - 00:30:07.17] core values are chase the vision, deliver
[00:30:07.17 - 00:30:09.14] what you promise, take pride in what you
[00:30:09.14 - 00:30:12.10] do, get shit done, treat everyone like
[00:30:12.10 - 00:30:15.07] your best friend and find a better way.
[00:30:15.07 - 00:30:17.06] Those are our six core values that we live and breathe.
[00:30:17.22 - 00:30:20.11] We hire people around, we fire people around.
[00:30:20.11 - 00:30:24.06] We look to all our decisions are made based on using those values.
[00:30:24.06 - 00:30:26.23] So once a month we, I got a trophy
[00:30:26.23 - 00:30:29.11] made years and years ago. It's a giant
[00:30:29.11 - 00:30:32.10] apple core. It's a half eaten apple core
[00:30:32.10 - 00:30:35.02] made out like at about 18 inches tall, a
[00:30:35.02 - 00:30:36.20] bronze apple core. And on the base of the
[00:30:36.20 - 00:30:38.16] trophy are the six, six core values. And
[00:30:38.16 - 00:30:42.11] once a month we send out a survey and ask
[00:30:42.11 - 00:30:45.05] people to nominate somebody for the core
[00:30:45.05 - 00:30:46.20] value award. It's totally optional. They
[00:30:46.20 - 00:30:48.11] don't have to, but almost everyone
[00:30:48.11 - 00:30:50.13] nominates somebody every month and they
[00:30:50.13 - 00:30:52.08] just write a quick, like I'm nominating
[00:30:52.08 - 00:30:54.07] them for this value and for this reason.
[00:30:54.07 - 00:30:56.16] And they give like a sentence or two. And
[00:30:56.16 - 00:30:58.22] then our people in culture team create a
[00:30:58.22 - 00:31:01.19] quick PowerPoint presentation. And at our
[00:31:01.19 - 00:31:04.05] daily huddle at the end of the month at
[00:31:04.05 - 00:31:07.04] the huddle, I wrap up the last, last day
[00:31:07.04 - 00:31:09.04] of the month's huddle with our core value
[00:31:09.04 - 00:31:11.05] award presentation. And I go through and I
[00:31:11.05 - 00:31:13.01] read out all the, I think it's about 10
[00:31:13.01 - 00:31:15.01] minutes. I read out all the nominations.
[00:31:15.04 - 00:31:18.01] So everyone has a chance to hear if
[00:31:18.01 - 00:31:19.10] someone has shouted them out for
[00:31:19.10 - 00:31:21.11] something, if they feel good hearing their
[00:31:21.11 - 00:31:25.07] name or someone who shouts out some, some,
[00:31:25.07 - 00:31:27.02] it makes them feel good that they're
[00:31:27.02 - 00:31:29.13] giving gratitude, right? So everybody
[00:31:29.13 - 00:31:32.10] hears all the nominations, sees their face
[00:31:32.10 - 00:31:34.08] on the screen and whoever got the most
[00:31:34.08 - 00:31:36.22] nominations wins the core value award for
[00:31:36.22 - 00:31:38.05] the month and they get the trophy and it
[00:31:38.05 - 00:31:40.02] sits on their desk. And any of our remote
[00:31:40.02 - 00:31:41.19] employees, they get a special zoom
[00:31:41.19 - 00:31:43.16] backdrop that is the core value backdrop
[00:31:43.16 - 00:31:46.07] winner for the month. And so at our daily
[00:31:46.07 - 00:31:48.07] huddle, you can see they've got their core
[00:31:48.07 - 00:31:50.19] value award winner zoom backdrop. Again,
[00:31:50.22 - 00:31:53.08] it's a really little thing. It doesn't
[00:31:53.08 - 00:31:55.19] cost us any money. It takes about 10
[00:31:55.19 - 00:31:59.01] minutes a month. It's something that it's
[00:31:59.01 - 00:32:02.20] playful, but it's recognizing great work.
[00:32:02.23 - 00:32:05.10] It's still, it's finding ways to integrate
[00:32:05.10 - 00:32:07.11] play into the way we're delivering our
[00:32:07.11 - 00:32:10.08] work, right? And it's, that's the part,
[00:32:10.08 - 00:32:12.13] it's not people who think that my book is
[00:32:12.13 - 00:32:14.19] about stop what you're doing and go play
[00:32:14.19 - 00:32:17.13] soccer. No, like definitely do that. Like
[00:32:17.13 - 00:32:19.04] have a soccer team for your company and
[00:32:19.04 - 00:32:20.20] have, you know, do some team building
[00:32:20.20 - 00:32:22.10] events, but it's about how you run your
[00:32:22.10 - 00:32:24.13] day-to-day. It's about making some playfulness
[00:32:24.13 - 00:32:27.13] with the work you're doing all the time.
[00:32:28.01 - 00:32:29.16] So Kristi, there's lots more I
[00:32:29.16 - 00:32:31.13] want to ask you, but I know you're limited
[00:32:31.13 - 00:32:35.14] for time. So I'll go straight to the
[00:32:35.14 - 00:32:37.23] question I'd like to end the podcast with,
[00:32:37.23 - 00:32:41.07] which is there's lots of people who are
[00:32:41.07 - 00:32:43.23] not intentional about their culture.
[00:32:44.07 - 00:32:45.20] There's leaders who are
[00:32:45.20 - 00:32:48.16] practicing or without knowing practicing
[00:32:48.16 - 00:32:51.16] culture by default, what would you whisper
[00:32:51.16 - 00:32:54.02] to the ear of such a leader? Now that
[00:32:54.02 - 00:32:56.13] you've been on the other end of a fully
[00:32:56.13 - 00:32:58.22] intentional culture.
[00:32:59.14 - 00:33:01.11] I would whisper the
[00:33:01.11 - 00:33:04.07] lesson my dad taught me, which I learned,
[00:33:04.07 - 00:33:06.22] I learned a very hard lesson in my early
[00:33:06.22 - 00:33:08.11] twenties when I was running my painting
[00:33:08.11 - 00:33:10.05] business. I had a lot of my painters quit
[00:33:10.17 - 00:33:13.01] partway through the summer and I didn't
[00:33:13.01 - 00:33:14.14] understand why they were quitting on me.
[00:33:14.19 - 00:33:16.22] And I realized after talking to my dad,
[00:33:16.22 - 00:33:18.19] who was a businessman and ran his own
[00:33:18.19 - 00:33:20.20] business, it was because of how I was
[00:33:20.20 - 00:33:24.08] treating them as people. I was dictating.
[00:33:24.08 - 00:33:27.22] I wasn't inspiring them. I wasn't sharing
[00:33:27.22 - 00:33:30.01] my vision with them or my goals. I wasn't
[00:33:30.01 - 00:33:31.16] treating them like teammates. I was being
[00:33:31.16 - 00:33:33.22] a dictator. And my dad said to me,
[00:33:33.22 - 00:33:38.20] Kristi, people are priority. If you don't
[00:33:38.20 - 00:33:41.17] have a great team of people, you've got
[00:33:41.17 - 00:33:44.13] nothing. So make people your priority. And
[00:33:44.13 - 00:33:46.16] so I would whisper in the ear to anyone,
[00:33:46.16 - 00:33:50.01] people are priority and play is powerful.
[00:33:52.10 - 00:33:57.01] Make people priority by having some fun
[00:33:57.01 - 00:33:59.08] with some play and because it's powerful,
[00:33:59.08 - 00:34:02.22] you'll get back a lot of value from doing so.
[00:34:02.22 - 00:34:05.22] Any book or any resource or any movie
[00:34:05.22 - 00:34:07.14] or anything you'd like to leave us, any
[00:34:07.14 - 00:34:09.04] parting thoughts you'd like to leave us with?
[00:34:10.05 - 00:34:12.08] Oh gosh, I think just you're never
[00:34:12.08 - 00:34:15.08] too old. You're never too old to play.
[00:34:15.16 - 00:34:19.19] It's another quote that I love. Oh my
[00:34:19.19 - 00:34:21.13] gosh, I say it all the time and I'm just
[00:34:21.13 - 00:34:26.10] blanking on the name right now. We don't
[00:34:26.10 - 00:34:29.07] grow old because we stop playing. We don't
[00:34:29.07 - 00:34:31.05] stop playing because we grow old. We grow
[00:34:31.05 - 00:34:34.04] old because we stop playing. So keep
[00:34:34.04 - 00:34:35.20] playing. I mean, I'm just a big believer
[00:34:35.20 - 00:34:38.04] in make time for play every day in your
[00:34:38.04 - 00:34:39.16] personal lives and in your work lives
[00:34:39.16 - 00:34:43.10] because there's just no reason not to. By
[00:34:43.10 - 00:34:45.22] the way, Andreas, I did have a link for you
[00:34:45.22 - 00:34:47.23] for your listeners if they'd like to get a
[00:34:47.23 - 00:34:50.19] copy of my 10-page playbook PDF. It's 10
[00:34:50.19 - 00:34:52.14] Ways to Integrate Play into the Day-to
[00:34:52.14 - 00:34:55.22] -Day. It's kristiherold.com. So K-R-I-S-T
[00:34:55.22 - 00:35:00.16] -I-H-E-R-O-L-D.com forward slash rethink
[00:35:00.16 - 00:35:05.17] 25. And inside that there's a 25% savings
[00:35:05.17 - 00:35:07.14] for anyone who might like to try a JAM
[00:35:07.14 - 00:35:09.19] virtual event for their company, a team
[00:35:09.19 - 00:35:11.20] building event. We'd love to offer that to them.
[00:35:11.20 - 00:35:13.23] Super. And we'll put it in the show notes.
[00:35:14.06 - 00:35:16.13] And where can people learn more
[00:35:16.13 - 00:35:17.19] about you, Kristi?
[00:35:18.10 - 00:35:19.16] On LinkedIn. I'm pretty active
[00:35:19.16 - 00:35:22.07] on LinkedIn and on my personal website,
[00:35:22.07 - 00:35:24.10] kristiherold.com or check out JAM.
[00:35:24.10 - 00:35:29.22] It's jamgroup.com. J-A-M-G-R-O-U-P .com.
[00:35:29.22 - 00:35:31.22] Kristi, thank you so much for
[00:35:31.22 - 00:35:35.13] inspiring us to play. I'm glad we got to
[00:35:35.13 - 00:35:39.04] meet and thank you to everyone who has
[00:35:39.04 - 00:35:40.16] been listening. Thank you for giving us
[00:35:40.16 - 00:35:43.19] your undivided attention. If you like the
[00:35:43.19 - 00:35:46.22] show, please do support us. And you can do
[00:35:46.22 - 00:35:49.01] that by leaving a comment so that more
[00:35:49.01 - 00:35:52.14] listeners and readers can get to it. You
[00:35:52.14 - 00:35:54.10] can also email me at andreas{
[00:35:54.10 - 00:35:56.14] rethinkculture.co with your thoughts or
[00:35:56.14 - 00:35:58.04] any guests you'd like to recommend for the
[00:35:58.04 - 00:36:00.20] show. And if you're just listening, but
[00:36:00.20 - 00:36:02.22] not watching us, you can also watch us at
[00:36:02.22 - 00:36:06.10] youtube.com/{rethinkculture
[00:36:06.10 - 00:36:09.23] and check out our episodes there or at
[00:36:09.23 - 00:36:13.22] rethinkculture.co/podcast. And as I
[00:36:13.22 - 00:36:16.10] love to say, keep on creating a happier
[00:36:16.10 - 00:36:19.11] workplace and more playful, I may add, for
[00:36:19.11 - 00:36:21.06] you and those around you.