WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.290 Melina: Traditional economics and business planning in general really assumes 00:00:05.380 --> 00:00:09.690 logical people making rational choices in everything that they do all the time. 00:00:10.250 --> 00:00:14.975 And as we're all human we know that that doesn't really work that way, right? 00:00:14.975 --> 00:00:19.795 We have great intentions and then don't follow through, um, or all sorts 00:00:19.825 --> 00:00:21.835 of implications that can come up. 00:00:21.855 --> 00:00:26.665 And a lot of the things that we don't think should matter at a logical level, 00:00:27.305 --> 00:00:27.465 the 00:00:27.515 --> 00:00:31.540 brain is picking up on and it's impacting behavior all the time. 00:00:35.962 --> 00:00:38.762 voiceover: A key component of the modern world economy, the chemical 00:00:38.762 --> 00:00:42.302 industry delivers products and innovations to enhance everyday life. 00:00:42.822 --> 00:00:47.262 It is also an industry in transformation where chemical executives and workers 00:00:47.282 --> 00:00:50.902 are delivering growth and industry changing advancements while responding 00:00:50.902 --> 00:00:55.432 to pressures from investors, regulators, and public opinion, discover how 00:00:55.432 --> 00:00:59.282 leading companies are approaching these challenges here on the chemical show. 00:00:59.752 --> 00:01:03.092 Join Victoria Meyer, president of Progressio Global and 00:01:03.102 --> 00:01:04.522 host of the chemical show. 00:01:04.797 --> 00:01:08.997 As she speaks with executives across the industry and learns how they are leading 00:01:08.997 --> 00:01:14.577 their companies to grow, transform, and push industry boundaries on all frontiers. 00:01:14.917 --> 00:01:17.167 Here's your host, Victoria Meyer. 00:01:19.922 --> 00:01:21.462 Victoria: Hi, this is Victoria Meyer. 00:01:21.492 --> 00:01:25.092 Welcome back to The Chemical Show Where Chemicals Means Business. 00:01:25.572 --> 00:01:30.992 Today, I am speaking with Melina Palmer, who is an applied behavioral economist 00:01:31.392 --> 00:01:33.382 and the CEO of The Brainy Business. 00:01:33.932 --> 00:01:37.312 So Melina has a passion for helping everyone from around the world to 00:01:37.312 --> 00:01:39.502 understand what behavioral economics is. 00:01:39.532 --> 00:01:41.362 And by the way, we're going to get into that. 00:01:41.392 --> 00:01:42.172 So stay tuned. 00:01:42.492 --> 00:01:46.862 And how it can be applied to communicate more effectively, run your 00:01:46.872 --> 00:01:48.902 business more effectively, et cetera. 00:01:49.602 --> 00:01:52.502 Melina is the host of The Brainy Business Podcast. 00:01:52.902 --> 00:01:53.572 Check it out. 00:01:53.882 --> 00:01:55.022 And has written three books. 00:01:55.492 --> 00:01:59.972 What Your Employees Want and Can't Tell You, What Your Customers Want and Can't 00:01:59.972 --> 00:02:02.032 Tell You, and The Truth About Pricing. 00:02:02.502 --> 00:02:04.832 We're going to be talking about The Truth About Pricing, but we may 00:02:04.842 --> 00:02:06.532 touch on those other things today. 00:02:06.887 --> 00:02:11.587 More importantly, Melina is one of our featured speakers at 00:02:11.587 --> 00:02:13.157 The Chemical Summit this year. 00:02:13.207 --> 00:02:19.497 So that's being held on October 8th and 9th, 2024 in Spring, Texas, um, 00:02:19.767 --> 00:02:23.947 the theme of one of the foundations of The Chemical Summit is thought 00:02:23.977 --> 00:02:27.847 leadership, creating connections and getting insights that you can apply. 00:02:28.257 --> 00:02:31.627 And Melina in combination with the conversations we'll have 00:02:31.627 --> 00:02:33.457 at the Summit brings all three. 00:02:33.997 --> 00:02:35.637 This is going to be a sellout event. 00:02:35.927 --> 00:02:38.367 Get your tickets today, TheChemicalSummit. 00:02:38.387 --> 00:02:43.447 com and Melina is going to give you some insights today, but you're really going to 00:02:43.447 --> 00:02:45.587 want to hear her in person at the summit. 00:02:45.747 --> 00:02:47.527 So Melina, thanks for joining us. 00:02:47.604 --> 00:02:48.464 Melina: Oh, absolutely. 00:02:48.464 --> 00:02:52.874 I'm delighted to be here now and, uh, in person, uh, coming up in October. 00:02:53.837 --> 00:02:54.117 Victoria: Yeah. 00:02:54.177 --> 00:02:54.507 Me too. 00:02:54.507 --> 00:02:54.947 Can't wait. 00:02:55.367 --> 00:02:58.137 So let's just start with your origin story. 00:02:58.267 --> 00:03:02.637 How did you get interested in the world of behavioral economics? 00:03:03.174 --> 00:03:07.854 Melina: Well, I look back to a particular point when I was doing my undergrad. 00:03:07.874 --> 00:03:11.964 So I was studying business administration and marketing, and there was this one 00:03:12.004 --> 00:03:16.674 section of one class, like little piece of one book that was talking about 00:03:16.904 --> 00:03:21.014 buying psychology and why people do the things they do and I thought it was 00:03:21.014 --> 00:03:25.264 just the most fascinating thing that I have ever seen and got really excited 00:03:25.264 --> 00:03:28.884 about it and said, Oh my goodness, I need to go get a master's in this. 00:03:28.884 --> 00:03:29.824 I I'm delighted. 00:03:30.124 --> 00:03:33.594 And I spent the better part of 10 years calling universities that 00:03:33.594 --> 00:03:35.064 said, uh, that's not a thing. 00:03:35.074 --> 00:03:35.754 It's not a program. 00:03:35.754 --> 00:03:36.584 It doesn't exist. 00:03:36.944 --> 00:03:37.984 We got nothing for you. 00:03:38.304 --> 00:03:41.184 So it kind of lived on a shelf somewhere, right? 00:03:41.184 --> 00:03:43.864 Put a pin in it of this thing I might study someday. 00:03:44.194 --> 00:03:48.554 Uh, and I was running a marketing department for a financial institution, 00:03:48.834 --> 00:03:55.624 and got involved with a group that was, uh, this like innovation fellowship. 00:03:55.674 --> 00:04:00.304 They brought in a team from the Center for Advanced Hindsight at Duke 00:04:00.314 --> 00:04:06.664 university, which is their behavioral economics wing And And as they were 00:04:06.664 --> 00:04:10.254 talking about the work they were doing and their research, I realized, Oh my 00:04:10.254 --> 00:04:13.654 goodness, this is exactly what I have been looking for all of this time. 00:04:14.044 --> 00:04:19.094 And I found myself a master's program and jumped in and I knew I was early 00:04:19.164 --> 00:04:22.484 because of that path that I had been on trying to find schools and things. 00:04:22.774 --> 00:04:26.244 But especially on the applied side, I didn't know how early I was 00:04:26.284 --> 00:04:29.924 and things that were so clear to me about how understanding human 00:04:29.924 --> 00:04:35.564 behavior is key to brand strategy and internal communication and pricing 00:04:35.564 --> 00:04:35.644 Victoria: Yeah. 00:04:35.644 --> 00:04:39.304 Melina: and all these things in business, just nobody was really talking about it. 00:04:39.324 --> 00:04:45.579 And so I started to do that and was just at the beginning of this like snowball of 00:04:45.589 --> 00:04:47.459 people discovering behavioral economics. 00:04:47.469 --> 00:04:51.209 So then people found The Brainy Business and that led to books 00:04:51.209 --> 00:04:54.619 and courses and, and trainings and all the things that we do today. 00:04:54.639 --> 00:04:55.029 Victoria: Yeah. 00:04:55.049 --> 00:04:55.449 That's cool. 00:04:55.459 --> 00:04:59.914 So first of all, the fact that Duke has a department about 00:04:59.924 --> 00:05:02.824 hindsight is an interesting thing. 00:05:02.874 --> 00:05:05.154 Advanced hindsight at that. 00:05:05.294 --> 00:05:08.824 It's like irony of all names, right? 00:05:08.834 --> 00:05:09.954 So that's, that's cool. 00:05:10.084 --> 00:05:11.404 And so I did wonder about that. 00:05:11.454 --> 00:05:13.204 Are there degree programs today? 00:05:13.244 --> 00:05:16.364 So you had to really work to seek it out, but is it becoming 00:05:16.694 --> 00:05:18.819 a more common opportunity? 00:05:19.236 --> 00:05:20.176 Melina: One of the big. 00:05:20.836 --> 00:05:25.276 Issues was that I didn't know the name that the field had given itself, 00:05:25.276 --> 00:05:25.496 right? 00:05:25.496 --> 00:05:30.556 So behavioral economics doesn't seem like a lot of what it is that 00:05:30.586 --> 00:05:34.346 we're, we're doing on the surface, especially coming in as a marketer. 00:05:34.396 --> 00:05:34.726 Right. 00:05:34.776 --> 00:05:40.166 Um, and so I didn't know what to ask for and it's not always and often 00:05:40.306 --> 00:05:41.966 not housed in the business school. 00:05:42.136 --> 00:05:43.546 So that's part of a problem. 00:05:43.796 --> 00:05:44.856 Two, right, as we're 00:05:44.889 --> 00:05:46.309 Victoria: Does it go with psychology? 00:05:46.396 --> 00:05:46.986 Melina: can, right? 00:05:47.016 --> 00:05:49.336 So my degree I got from a school of psychology. 00:05:49.376 --> 00:05:54.196 Um, and so yeah, psychology or econ, but sometimes it's in part of a philosophy 00:05:54.196 --> 00:05:56.746 department or, uh, there can be all sorts. 00:05:57.076 --> 00:06:01.276 So, yes, delighted that there are more and more programs that are coming 00:06:01.276 --> 00:06:05.576 up, um, including, uh, so I work with Texas A&M we have a certificate 00:06:05.576 --> 00:06:07.066 in applied behavioral economics. 00:06:07.236 --> 00:06:10.936 That's virtual and available for people all over the world so that 00:06:10.936 --> 00:06:13.786 they don't have to struggle through the same type of thing that I went 00:06:13.786 --> 00:06:15.696 through of trying to find a program. 00:06:15.696 --> 00:06:16.146 Victoria: That's cool. 00:06:16.396 --> 00:06:16.706 So alright. 00:06:16.726 --> 00:06:17.676 Let's tackle this. 00:06:17.716 --> 00:06:23.186 What is behavioral economics and why should leaders care? 00:06:23.329 --> 00:06:23.444 Melina: Yeah. 00:06:23.444 --> 00:06:27.004 For you to know why you want to go into all these programs that exist. 00:06:27.664 --> 00:06:29.872 Victoria: Why do I want to use it in my business? 00:06:30.104 --> 00:06:30.474 Melina: Yeah. 00:06:30.474 --> 00:06:35.784 So I like to say that if traditional economics and psychology had just 00:06:35.784 --> 00:06:40.604 the most adorable baby, we would have behavioral economics, um, and 00:06:40.724 --> 00:06:44.164 essentially the reason that the field came about why it matters is because 00:06:44.194 --> 00:06:49.484 traditional economics and business planning in general really assumes 00:06:49.574 --> 00:06:53.884 logical people making rational choices in everything that they do all the time. 00:06:54.444 --> 00:06:59.169 And as we're all human we know that that doesn't really work that way, right? 00:06:59.169 --> 00:07:03.989 We have great intentions and then don't follow through, um, or all sorts 00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:06.029 of implications that can come up. 00:07:06.049 --> 00:07:10.409 And a lot of the things that we don't think should matter at a logical 00:07:10.409 --> 00:07:15.734 level, the brain is picking up on and it's impacting behavior all the time. 00:07:15.744 --> 00:07:22.154 So what behavioral economics does is helps us to understand those rules that 00:07:22.164 --> 00:07:23.974 the brain is using to make decisions. 00:07:23.994 --> 00:07:29.434 And in applied behavioral economics, um, I help companies to understand how 00:07:29.454 --> 00:07:33.794 they can get, use that so that more customers buy and employees buy in. 00:07:35.752 --> 00:07:37.222 Victoria: So can you give us an example? 00:07:37.642 --> 00:07:40.872 Like just when do we see this in use? 00:07:41.352 --> 00:07:45.162 Like would I recognize it if it jumped up in bit me? 00:07:45.239 --> 00:07:46.099 Melina: well, it's, it's 00:07:46.102 --> 00:07:46.312 Victoria: to speak. 00:07:46.312 --> 00:07:49.709 Melina: a funny thing because, for the most part we don't notice it. 00:07:49.729 --> 00:07:54.779 And it's because all these things are happening on a subconscious level So one 00:07:54.779 --> 00:07:58.609 of the stats that I love to share with people, because it helps us, we learn 00:07:58.609 --> 00:08:05.359 about our brains, is that research shows we humans make 35, 000 decisions a day. 00:08:05.914 --> 00:08:09.804 Each of us, 35, 000 decisions. 00:08:10.034 --> 00:08:12.654 How many decisions do you remember making yesterday? 00:08:15.202 --> 00:08:17.152 Victoria: Probably like five or ten or who 00:08:17.484 --> 00:08:17.864 Melina: right? 00:08:18.062 --> 00:08:18.422 Victoria: Not that 00:08:18.554 --> 00:08:19.054 Melina: yeah, if I 00:08:19.054 --> 00:08:19.234 was 00:08:19.282 --> 00:08:20.112 Victoria: went out to dinner. 00:08:20.132 --> 00:08:21.392 Hey, there was a few decisions in 00:08:21.574 --> 00:08:21.924 Melina: right. 00:08:21.994 --> 00:08:22.604 If I was, 00:08:22.604 --> 00:08:26.054 to really stretch myself, I could come up with a hundred, right? 00:08:27.169 --> 00:08:30.869 At the most, but not thousands, let alone 35,000 00:08:30.892 --> 00:08:31.332 Victoria: yeah, 00:08:31.509 --> 00:08:31.879 Melina: of them. 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:32.159 Right. 00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:38.909 And so we know that really in this way, our lives are just a series of 00:08:38.949 --> 00:08:41.949 micro moments and micro decisions. 00:08:42.259 --> 00:08:46.909 And what behavioral economics is doing is understanding how your brain 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:49.119 is making those little decisions. 00:08:49.129 --> 00:08:51.549 I like to think about it like bumpers and bowling, right? 00:08:51.569 --> 00:08:55.979 As we're helping to guide someone down a path, something along those lines. 00:08:56.419 --> 00:09:01.169 And so understanding the rules, you can either be working with them. 00:09:01.579 --> 00:09:05.269 To make it easier to get through, or you can be working against them 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:06.549 in a way that can derail things. 00:09:06.549 --> 00:09:12.199 So the example that actually comes up funny enough is not from either of 00:09:12.209 --> 00:09:15.139 the two books that we've talked about talking about today, but it's, it's 00:09:15.139 --> 00:09:19.639 in my brain, so I'm going to bring it up, uh, which is, uh, thinking about. 00:09:20.079 --> 00:09:24.119 change and communicating change within an organization or sending 00:09:24.129 --> 00:09:25.799 even something as simple as an email. 00:09:25.809 --> 00:09:29.349 So there's this concept of framing and that how we say something 00:09:29.359 --> 00:09:31.349 matters more than what we say. 00:09:31.779 --> 00:09:36.729 And so in this case, I have this example from, uh, a boss. 00:09:37.339 --> 00:09:40.589 Years ago, and I got an email from her at 10 a. 00:09:40.589 --> 00:09:40.779 m. 00:09:40.819 --> 00:09:45.739 On a Thursday, I got an email that says, we need to talk be in my office at two. 00:09:48.049 --> 00:09:52.339 So that is one of the scariest emails I've ever gotten. 00:09:52.427 --> 00:09:52.687 Victoria: Yeah. 00:09:52.687 --> 00:09:54.337 It's going to trigger you in all kinds of 00:09:54.584 --> 00:09:54.914 Melina: Right. 00:09:55.024 --> 00:09:58.964 And I had been at this company for, you know, less than 90 days. 00:09:59.124 --> 00:10:02.754 And so, you know, I spent those four hours looking at every 00:10:02.764 --> 00:10:04.284 project I had been working on. 00:10:04.284 --> 00:10:05.994 Every person I had been talking to. 00:10:05.994 --> 00:10:09.914 I'm like binge eating all the snacks and texting everybody. 00:10:09.914 --> 00:10:11.104 I'm so stressed. 00:10:11.104 --> 00:10:11.324 Right. 00:10:11.334 --> 00:10:13.074 All the way through, uh, these 00:10:13.074 --> 00:10:13.844 Victoria: four hours. 00:10:14.124 --> 00:10:14.214 Right. 00:10:14.214 --> 00:10:14.274 Melina: Yeah. 00:10:14.294 --> 00:10:15.514 I get into her office. 00:10:15.524 --> 00:10:22.284 She has me sit down and says, I'm going to be out of the office tomorrow and wanted 00:10:22.284 --> 00:10:26.134 to let you know that yours is the email I'm putting on my out of office responder. 00:10:29.034 --> 00:10:30.484 And that was it, right? 00:10:30.504 --> 00:10:32.084 That was the point of this meeting. 00:10:32.534 --> 00:10:33.564 And so, 00:10:33.587 --> 00:10:34.627 Victoria: Which could have been an 00:10:34.874 --> 00:10:35.734 Melina: yeah, that could have 00:10:35.807 --> 00:10:36.427 Victoria: first place. 00:10:36.457 --> 00:10:40.084 Melina: the email if we had thought about the framing. 00:10:40.344 --> 00:10:43.634 So the thing, and what's really amazing about this is when I was 00:10:43.634 --> 00:10:45.134 writing about this for my book. 00:10:45.384 --> 00:10:49.004 Ten years later, I felt the stress, right? 00:10:49.004 --> 00:10:54.564 My blood pressure increasing as I'm thinking about this experience. 00:10:54.604 --> 00:10:57.484 And this was just a moment for her. 00:10:57.714 --> 00:10:58.354 I guarantee 00:10:58.354 --> 00:10:58.424 Victoria: Yeah. 00:10:58.424 --> 00:10:59.694 Melina: she not remember it. 00:10:59.704 --> 00:11:01.144 There wasn't any ill intent. 00:11:01.164 --> 00:11:04.734 I came to learn over the years, you know, there was a very specific meeting on 00:11:04.774 --> 00:11:09.364 Thursday mornings where I would get these sort of short emails, right, mid sort of 00:11:09.364 --> 00:11:11.364 thought stream, like boop, boop, boop. 00:11:12.084 --> 00:11:15.674 But, If she had been more thoughtful about that email, I 00:11:15.674 --> 00:11:17.414 lost hours of productive time. 00:11:17.424 --> 00:11:21.624 And even over the years, you know, and I get these types of emails, I would 00:11:21.624 --> 00:11:27.674 look at that and you say, it's probably nothing, but, what if it is right? 00:11:27.684 --> 00:11:28.584 It's always in back of 00:11:28.584 --> 00:11:28.644 Victoria: Yeah. 00:11:28.704 --> 00:11:29.324 Melina: your mind. 00:11:29.334 --> 00:11:32.724 You're living in this state of extra cognitive stress and strain, 00:11:32.944 --> 00:11:36.174 which makes it to where I'm less likely to be open to change. 00:11:36.334 --> 00:11:40.749 Like, can you imagine if she was going to be telling me about a change or 00:11:40.749 --> 00:11:44.759 something that she needed me to do in that meeting, uh, even if it's objectively 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:46.679 good, I'm not really ready to hear it. 00:11:46.959 --> 00:11:51.239 And so a simple reframe on that email to say, I'm going to be 00:11:51.239 --> 00:11:52.349 out of the office tomorrow. 00:11:52.349 --> 00:11:54.589 Do you have some time to talk about it too? 00:11:54.589 --> 00:11:55.279 yes, I do. 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:56.119 Victoria: Sure. 00:11:56.367 --> 00:11:57.307 Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:57.377 --> 00:12:00.937 And you would be in a positive state of mind as opposed to a 00:12:01.237 --> 00:12:02.547 negative state of mind for that 00:12:02.854 --> 00:12:03.134 Melina: right. 00:12:03.164 --> 00:12:06.364 And in this case, it's like the first time that she was entrusting for 00:12:06.374 --> 00:12:08.584 me to be the person on the email. 00:12:08.604 --> 00:12:12.084 It would have been this delightful thing, and I'm sure she thought it was great, 00:12:12.084 --> 00:12:16.164 but it was so stressful for me because of this simple way that this is framed. 00:12:16.534 --> 00:12:22.154 And so research shows that we spend 17 hours per person per week clarifying 00:12:22.184 --> 00:12:23.934 something that was previously said. 00:12:24.857 --> 00:12:25.277 Victoria: Wow. 00:12:25.667 --> 00:12:26.537 That's a lot of time. 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:27.869 Melina: Too much time, right? 00:12:28.309 --> 00:12:32.929 So if we can be a little bit more thoughtful in the way we send those 00:12:32.979 --> 00:12:38.479 emails in the points of communication and what we say to people and, um, how 00:12:38.479 --> 00:12:43.819 we say it and it frees up, we'll say five hours per person per week, like that. 00:12:44.314 --> 00:12:47.494 Amazing when you think about that across an organization. 00:12:47.494 --> 00:12:51.814 So where I say you don't necessarily notice it, like you said, you don't 00:12:51.954 --> 00:12:56.714 see it, but now that you can start to be looking for it, I, I like to 00:12:56.714 --> 00:13:00.354 talk about with communication to think about it like popcorn, right? 00:13:00.734 --> 00:13:03.144 Popcorn's this great scent that like draws you in when you're 00:13:03.174 --> 00:13:05.264 going to the movies and we love it. 00:13:05.284 --> 00:13:07.744 It can be exciting, enticing, all these things. 00:13:08.154 --> 00:13:11.634 And we've all been in the office when someone burnt a bag of popcorn. 00:13:12.897 --> 00:13:13.577 Victoria: No doubt. 00:13:13.814 --> 00:13:17.744 Melina: And it's all anyone can talk about for the rest of the day. 00:13:17.764 --> 00:13:18.794 And it lingers, right? 00:13:18.794 --> 00:13:22.124 It's like weeks later and you go, Oh, did Melina burn popcorn again? 00:13:22.124 --> 00:13:22.344 Right. 00:13:22.394 --> 00:13:24.044 It's, it's out there. 00:13:24.054 --> 00:13:24.314 Right. 00:13:24.674 --> 00:13:29.554 So you can look at your communication and say, is this going to be burnt popcorn? 00:13:29.704 --> 00:13:32.254 Like, how could I reframe it so that it's not right. 00:13:32.264 --> 00:13:37.114 That's just like simple question that you can ask to think about a reframe that 00:13:37.114 --> 00:13:39.464 can save tons of time across the team. 00:13:39.484 --> 00:13:41.914 And really, you know, that's money for the company. 00:13:42.937 --> 00:13:43.517 Victoria: Absolutely. 00:13:43.527 --> 00:13:45.137 And I, I've learned that along the way. 00:13:45.202 --> 00:13:54.502 Um, but number two, well, my, uh, so my second daughter just finished 00:13:54.502 --> 00:13:56.042 her freshman year at Texas A& M. 00:13:56.042 --> 00:14:00.372 So the Texas A& M connection, and I kid you not, it's like finals week 00:14:00.382 --> 00:14:02.602 and she said they got evacuated. 00:14:02.602 --> 00:14:04.632 There's a fire alarm at like 2 a. 00:14:04.632 --> 00:14:04.962 m. 00:14:04.972 --> 00:14:05.517 or 3 a. 00:14:05.517 --> 00:14:05.782 m. 00:14:05.982 --> 00:14:10.622 because somebody had burnt popcorn and set off the fire alarm. 00:14:10.622 --> 00:14:12.052 It was so bad and smoky and whatever. 00:14:12.052 --> 00:14:14.102 She's like, are you kidding me? 00:14:14.302 --> 00:14:18.002 We've been in the dorms for nine months and you still haven't 00:14:18.002 --> 00:14:20.052 figured out how to make popcorn. 00:14:20.342 --> 00:14:20.572 Right. 00:14:20.582 --> 00:14:24.122 Not to mention the fact that at some point during your Prior 19 years, you 00:14:24.132 --> 00:14:25.462 hadn't learned how to make popcorn. 00:14:25.462 --> 00:14:30.582 So, um, it's, that's interesting that the other piece, so that communications 00:14:30.582 --> 00:14:34.502 piece I've learned, um, and part of this is kind of the one to one learning and 00:14:34.502 --> 00:14:39.452 the one to many learning, but there's, um, with my marketing assistant, I've 00:14:39.452 --> 00:14:44.712 learned that when I send her ideas, she's ready to implement and I'm like, 00:14:44.712 --> 00:14:46.032 Oh no, no, no, that was just an idea. 00:14:46.092 --> 00:14:50.892 So I, I know to frame it as put this in your future folder. 00:14:51.437 --> 00:14:54.257 Not for today, but for future that we might want to look at this. 00:14:54.587 --> 00:14:58.197 Um, and then we eliminate the back and forth up front. 00:14:58.307 --> 00:14:59.757 She knows what I want to do with it. 00:14:59.767 --> 00:15:04.547 I can still get it off my desk, uh, and know that, okay, it's someplace where 00:15:04.547 --> 00:15:05.857 we can talk about it in the future. 00:15:05.867 --> 00:15:09.427 So it's, um, that, but it is, it's an extra. 00:15:09.657 --> 00:15:15.067 Um, probably a second at this point of thinking before I do 00:15:15.067 --> 00:15:17.127 something to make it more impactful. 00:15:17.324 --> 00:15:17.644 Melina: right. 00:15:17.834 --> 00:15:22.534 And having that little bit of space up front to be able to plan and 00:15:22.534 --> 00:15:24.004 say, Hey, what do we actually want? 00:15:24.329 --> 00:15:26.259 Out of this, like, what do I want someone to do? 00:15:26.259 --> 00:15:31.059 And if we're thinking in these micro moments instead of big moments 00:15:31.099 --> 00:15:31.159 Victoria: Yeah. 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:31.949 Melina: of change, right. 00:15:31.969 --> 00:15:34.989 And it's exactly the same when we're thinking about communicating with 00:15:35.009 --> 00:15:36.869 customers and getting people to buy. 00:15:36.929 --> 00:15:37.249 Right. 00:15:37.589 --> 00:15:37.969 And so 00:15:37.969 --> 00:15:38.029 Victoria: Yeah 00:15:38.059 --> 00:15:40.659 Melina: if we don't think about like, okay, well. 00:15:41.079 --> 00:15:45.789 I want to have like manifested this product and then eventually people buy it 00:15:45.789 --> 00:15:47.439 like that's what's going to happen, right? 00:15:47.669 --> 00:15:49.079 Well, no, right? 00:15:49.469 --> 00:15:53.449 There are lots of little moments along the way, some that are more important 00:15:53.449 --> 00:15:57.219 than others, some that are more nudgeable than others, and you can find. 00:15:58.334 --> 00:16:01.944 where you can be using numbers in a thoughtful way, where you can be 00:16:01.944 --> 00:16:06.164 incorporating a question, where you can be doing all these things that are helping 00:16:06.164 --> 00:16:12.099 to move them to that next micro moment, that next decision, and we know the way 00:16:12.099 --> 00:16:16.449 where we want them to go down the path, whether that's internal or external. 00:16:16.769 --> 00:16:21.249 And right now, if we just get one thing from this, what's the most 00:16:21.249 --> 00:16:25.419 important next thing to ensure that we're staying on track and on the path. 00:16:25.659 --> 00:16:29.929 And if we break things down in that way, then we're just that much more 00:16:29.929 --> 00:16:33.419 thoughtful and things really tie in together and you can start to 00:16:33.429 --> 00:16:35.279 say, what can be asynchronous here? 00:16:35.349 --> 00:16:37.759 Like what can we turn into a process? 00:16:37.969 --> 00:16:40.009 Because we thought about it one time. 00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:42.019 That's going to streamline everything down the way. 00:16:44.247 --> 00:16:44.557 Victoria: Cool. 00:16:44.737 --> 00:16:46.997 So how does this all tie into pricing? 00:16:46.997 --> 00:16:48.317 So I actually have your book here. 00:16:48.317 --> 00:16:51.657 So people that are watching the video, um, your most recent book 00:16:51.657 --> 00:16:54.877 is around The Truth About Pricing. 00:16:56.207 --> 00:16:59.327 So I guess the question is, what is the truth? 00:16:59.327 --> 00:17:03.409 Melina: Yes and don't worry I'm not like giving away the whole book in this case, 00:17:03.409 --> 00:17:07.189 because I actually share, I think it's on page three that I say what the truth 00:17:07.189 --> 00:17:12.129 about pricing is in the book, which is that pricing is generally not about 00:17:12.129 --> 00:17:18.219 the price and everything that happens before the price matters more than the 00:17:18.219 --> 00:17:21.879 number on the tag or however, or, you know, in the bid sheet or whatever it 00:17:21.879 --> 00:17:21.939 Victoria: Yeah. 00:17:21.939 --> 00:17:22.809 Melina: is that we have there. 00:17:22.809 --> 00:17:23.099 Right. 00:17:23.419 --> 00:17:25.019 And so all that stuff. 00:17:25.499 --> 00:17:28.889 That happens before the price is the psychology. 00:17:28.899 --> 00:17:33.559 It's the thoughtfulness of these things we're talking about and how you're framing 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:38.289 that message, how you're incorporating all these different aspects, uh, into 00:17:38.649 --> 00:17:43.844 really helping people down the path of by the time they're ready to buy. 00:17:44.804 --> 00:17:47.204 Doesn't even really matter what the price is. 00:17:47.214 --> 00:17:48.254 It's secondary. 00:17:49.907 --> 00:17:50.317 Victoria: Yeah. 00:17:50.437 --> 00:17:52.937 It's, it's kind of like the Birkin bag or the it bag. 00:17:52.937 --> 00:17:55.557 I was reading an article today in the Wall Street Journal, they 00:17:55.557 --> 00:17:59.597 were talking about what's the next it bag, um, in terms of handbags. 00:17:59.637 --> 00:18:04.547 And, um, by the way, I have none of those bags because I'm not willing to 00:18:04.547 --> 00:18:09.527 spend thousands of dollars, but there's a certain mystique around it that has 00:18:09.527 --> 00:18:11.477 nothing to do with its functionality. 00:18:11.607 --> 00:18:15.232 Um, and I think sometimes in the, It's certainly in our industry and the 00:18:15.232 --> 00:18:19.642 B2B industry and in chemicals, people often think about functionality as 00:18:19.682 --> 00:18:21.732 the only source of value and pricing. 00:18:22.192 --> 00:18:25.412 But what you're saying is it's the rest of the story. 00:18:25.444 --> 00:18:25.874 Melina: Yes. 00:18:26.134 --> 00:18:30.804 Well, and actually I have, uh, the Birkin is a case study that I have, uh, I give 00:18:30.804 --> 00:18:36.124 some examples at the end of the book and, um, yeah, the Birkin bag is one of them 00:18:36.124 --> 00:18:41.214 because as you're saying, it's such a, a fascinating and interesting example where, 00:18:41.374 --> 00:18:48.114 you know, when we think about utility, uh, you know, plastic bag from the, um, 00:18:48.514 --> 00:18:52.914 Grocery store that I'm reusing would do the same thing as that Birkin does, right? 00:18:53.104 --> 00:18:59.184 It holds things and has handles Done it right, but of course not that 00:18:59.204 --> 00:19:01.684 is not how this works works right? 00:19:01.684 --> 00:19:06.404 It's not about those things It's about my identity and 00:19:06.414 --> 00:19:08.304 knowing we're a herding species. 00:19:08.314 --> 00:19:13.764 So this piece of social proof is driven by scarcity Um, there's aspects 00:19:13.764 --> 00:19:19.694 of loss aversion and what it means, you know for me to be able to have 00:19:19.694 --> 00:19:22.974 this, this item, what it says about you and all these different aspects. 00:19:23.404 --> 00:19:29.544 And so what I really love about the Birkin too, is it's not just about 00:19:29.764 --> 00:19:31.764 being able to afford it, right? 00:19:31.794 --> 00:19:37.324 So that's another thing, because there are a lot of really expensive bags and things 00:19:37.324 --> 00:19:38.864 that someone could spend their money on. 00:19:39.244 --> 00:19:40.754 But in the case of, of. 00:19:41.309 --> 00:19:45.869 Hermes in the Birkin, they have actually set it up that the only way that you can 00:19:45.879 --> 00:19:53.039 get a Birkin bag is you have to spend now enough money with Hermes outside of this 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.749 to develop a relationship with a sales associate that they would then recommend 00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:02.729 you as someone who could get a bag and you don't get to customize the color 00:20:02.739 --> 00:20:05.309 or the size or anything for your bag. 00:20:05.309 --> 00:20:08.219 It's saying, Hey, this is now available. 00:20:08.239 --> 00:20:13.299 You're on the list and you're now eligible to spend thousands of dollars and pay us 00:20:13.299 --> 00:20:18.269 all this money for a bag in a color you hate that's too small to hold your stuff. 00:20:18.269 --> 00:20:18.999 Do you want it? 00:20:18.999 --> 00:20:20.939 And people say, heck yes, I do. 00:20:20.979 --> 00:20:22.179 And I am going change, 00:20:22.179 --> 00:20:22.239 Yeah. 00:20:22.409 --> 00:20:25.889 This is now my new favorite color and I'm updating my wardrobe to match the bag. 00:20:26.369 --> 00:20:30.189 Like, but you have to be essentially like nice enough to have the 00:20:30.189 --> 00:20:33.799 relationship that that sales associate wants to pass you along. 00:20:34.129 --> 00:20:34.429 Which. 00:20:34.784 --> 00:20:39.754 I love because so often we feel like we have to cater to people that maybe aren't 00:20:39.774 --> 00:20:43.794 so nice because they happen to have the, the money or, or whatever it is. 00:20:44.184 --> 00:20:44.704 And. 00:20:45.134 --> 00:20:47.884 If you think about, well, what if we don't do it that way? 00:20:47.884 --> 00:20:51.464 We could build the model however we want and have it to where people 00:20:51.464 --> 00:20:55.354 are knocking down our door to be able to spend money with us. 00:20:55.374 --> 00:20:56.544 Like, it's really cool. 00:20:56.544 --> 00:20:57.684 I, I love the Birkin. 00:20:57.684 --> 00:21:00.354 I'm glad you brought it up. 00:21:00.682 --> 00:21:04.752 Victoria: And, and, and being in a position where people are asking to do 00:21:04.752 --> 00:21:09.192 business with you and buy your products is a bit of a Holy grail, right? 00:21:09.222 --> 00:21:12.852 As opposed to having to sell, just being in the position that in 00:21:12.852 --> 00:21:14.112 some ways you're the gatekeeper. 00:21:14.294 --> 00:21:14.724 Melina: Yeah. 00:21:15.222 --> 00:21:19.367 Victoria: So how do we translate this to B2B markets? 00:21:19.607 --> 00:21:23.507 When we, uh, you know, chemical industry often thinks about, 00:21:24.007 --> 00:21:26.837 um, products being products. 00:21:26.837 --> 00:21:30.447 And in fact, I talk about this a lot to folks that nobody actually 00:21:30.447 --> 00:21:33.587 cares about the specification because there's just an assumption that that 00:21:33.587 --> 00:21:35.127 product is going to do what it does. 00:21:35.487 --> 00:21:36.637 Um, it's all the other things. 00:21:37.932 --> 00:21:42.122 Quality relationship where they perceived value, et cetera. 00:21:42.562 --> 00:21:46.912 But when you think about this and kind of just the, the lessons that 00:21:46.932 --> 00:21:51.162 from behavioral economics, how do they apply into B2B markets? 00:21:51.404 --> 00:21:51.754 Melina: Yeah. 00:21:52.024 --> 00:21:53.164 So at the end of the day. 00:21:53.639 --> 00:21:59.129 It is still a human person that is making the decision whether they're going to buy 00:21:59.129 --> 00:22:04.019 from you or not in the case of B2B, what you have is some more complexity that you 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:09.229 have multiple someone's multiple human persons that are various gatekeepers 00:22:09.229 --> 00:22:11.379 with differing levels of authority. 00:22:11.649 --> 00:22:14.929 And if you can understand what their motivations are. 00:22:15.089 --> 00:22:16.969 And can cater to those. 00:22:17.189 --> 00:22:18.879 It helps to streamline a process. 00:22:18.909 --> 00:22:22.179 So and knowing they don't all want to need the same things. 00:22:22.369 --> 00:22:25.499 So there are kind of different levers you want to pull at different points. 00:22:25.879 --> 00:22:29.919 So, you know, your CFO is going to be looking at something that's 00:22:29.969 --> 00:22:34.759 different than that power user or someone that's having to be running 00:22:34.994 --> 00:22:37.254 Something that could impact you, right? 00:22:37.254 --> 00:22:39.924 Where it's saying, well, we already have all these things input 00:22:39.924 --> 00:22:41.584 into a system that we're using. 00:22:41.584 --> 00:22:45.284 I'd have to change a bunch of these codes to switch to a new vendor. 00:22:45.534 --> 00:22:46.944 Uh, I'm not willing to do it. 00:22:46.994 --> 00:22:51.264 So like got to fire me or, and like, good luck. 00:22:51.994 --> 00:22:52.544 That person 00:22:52.544 --> 00:22:52.604 Victoria: Yeah, 00:22:52.604 --> 00:22:56.474 Melina: could derail everything if, and if you don't know, they 00:22:56.474 --> 00:22:59.844 exist up front to where you can be understanding what they need. 00:23:00.104 --> 00:23:04.129 It's like down the path, but if you can think about them in advance and 00:23:04.129 --> 00:23:08.419 what's going to help them to love this idea, uh, you know, getting them in 00:23:08.419 --> 00:23:13.099 the room is really key that they could derail your whole giant sale because 00:23:13.129 --> 00:23:17.059 they said, no, and you don't even know that they exist if you're not taking 00:23:17.059 --> 00:23:18.859 the time to be thoughtful about them. 00:23:18.889 --> 00:23:23.709 So, uh, you still need to understand what's going to be appealing to 00:23:23.709 --> 00:23:28.449 the CEO, the CFO, all these other people along the way and how you're 00:23:28.449 --> 00:23:29.799 going to communicate to them. 00:23:30.479 --> 00:23:34.199 , but understanding what behavioral levers to pull with each of them is really key. 00:23:34.199 --> 00:23:38.769 And so when you are in that B2B space, knowing that you have multiple 00:23:38.769 --> 00:23:44.229 humans that can interact in different ways, and you're just applying the 00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:47.479 same concepts, uh, to each of them, 00:23:49.482 --> 00:23:50.082 Victoria: I think that's right. 00:23:50.332 --> 00:23:52.582 Um, I just recorded an interview. 00:23:52.592 --> 00:23:56.732 So in fact today, so prior to our interview, um, and that actually 00:23:56.732 --> 00:24:00.322 gets published a couple of weeks before this, um, episode goes live 00:24:00.322 --> 00:24:03.022 with, um, Gaurab from Solugen. 00:24:03.042 --> 00:24:06.762 And one of the things they talked about was in terms of, 00:24:06.762 --> 00:24:07.772 and they're a startup company. 00:24:07.772 --> 00:24:11.982 So for your benefit, Melina there, and actually for other people's benefit who 00:24:12.042 --> 00:24:13.802 didn't listen to episode, go listen to it. 00:24:14.132 --> 00:24:16.322 Um, and aren't familiar with Solugen. 00:24:16.342 --> 00:24:21.042 They're a startup in chemicals and it's there, they found an enzymatic way to 00:24:21.042 --> 00:24:24.102 create chemicals and, uh, more carbon. 00:24:24.562 --> 00:24:29.012 Um, let's just call it carbon beneficial and more sustainable product. 00:24:29.432 --> 00:24:33.912 But, you know, we talked about how did they figure out how to go to market 00:24:34.012 --> 00:24:37.962 their customers, they went to the people that were actually using it, right? 00:24:37.992 --> 00:24:42.222 So often I think the conversations happen between sales and procurement, 00:24:42.682 --> 00:24:47.002 but actually getting down to where the actual users of the product are 00:24:47.062 --> 00:24:50.672 and what their pain points are, why they use it, what they like about it. 00:24:51.062 --> 00:24:52.672 They found to be really valuable, right? 00:24:52.672 --> 00:24:57.582 So the operator who's using the product has a very different need than the 00:24:57.582 --> 00:25:01.572 procurement manager, then the business manager, then the CFO, then the CEO. 00:25:01.852 --> 00:25:05.232 , and understanding all those various touch points becomes pretty critical. 00:25:05.419 --> 00:25:06.489 Melina: right, right. 00:25:06.489 --> 00:25:11.109 Well, and that's, so here where, what you said is a piece that's like down 00:25:11.109 --> 00:25:12.369 the line, other people that like it. 00:25:12.369 --> 00:25:15.419 And we're able to share and say, people like you like this thing and 00:25:15.419 --> 00:25:16.589 are seeing value from it, right? 00:25:16.589 --> 00:25:17.569 That's our testimonials. 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:18.739 That's social proof. 00:25:18.789 --> 00:25:21.629 That's the same thing I was talking about with the Birkin bag, right? 00:25:21.889 --> 00:25:23.939 So it's the same concept 00:25:23.939 --> 00:25:23.999 Victoria: Yeah. 00:25:24.199 --> 00:25:27.949 Melina: but we're thinking about it in a people like you have done. 00:25:28.149 --> 00:25:32.649 And trust this, it's the star ratings and reviews we see on Amazon and how 00:25:32.649 --> 00:25:38.239 many followers people have wherever else we humans are really motivated by that. 00:25:38.239 --> 00:25:40.849 And it helps us to feel safe in making a decision. 00:25:40.849 --> 00:25:45.039 And so accreditations and certifications certifications those 00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:48.329 are a form of social proof as well to show that you can trust us. 00:25:48.369 --> 00:25:51.989 Other people did some due diligence and vetted us were trustworthy. 00:25:52.339 --> 00:25:56.459 Even being able to say, you know, amongst our clients like you this 00:25:56.459 --> 00:25:58.869 is the most popular choice, right? 00:25:58.869 --> 00:25:59.489 That's, that's 00:25:59.649 --> 00:25:59.819 Victoria: Hmm. 00:25:59.819 --> 00:26:01.349 Melina: the social proof piece. 00:26:01.669 --> 00:26:05.959 And so it feels like sometimes we shouldn't have to say that 00:26:06.379 --> 00:26:07.659 it shouldn't be about that. 00:26:07.849 --> 00:26:08.979 Yeah, it is. 00:26:09.139 --> 00:26:09.299 Victoria: Right. 00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:10.069 Melina: It's about that. 00:26:10.209 --> 00:26:13.409 And if you omit those things, it just makes it so 00:26:13.409 --> 00:26:14.099 much harder to 00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:14.469 sell. 00:26:14.719 --> 00:26:18.839 And so if you can line up, so in The Truth About Pricing, I give these steps of how 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:21.859 you're going to be shaping out pricing, how to think about it, all the things 00:26:21.859 --> 00:26:23.189 that happen before the price, right? 00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:24.719 And. 00:26:24.994 --> 00:26:30.224 We can say, if you've built out what that best offer is, what, you know, is the best 00:26:30.264 --> 00:26:32.434 thing for most people to buy from you. 00:26:33.494 --> 00:26:35.974 And then you want to put all your eggs in making it obvious 00:26:35.974 --> 00:26:37.204 that this is the best choice. 00:26:37.594 --> 00:26:39.744 And it's the, you know, maybe it's the best value. 00:26:39.994 --> 00:26:43.324 Perhaps it's something that's most popular, but we're making it very 00:26:43.324 --> 00:26:44.554 clear that this is a good choice. 00:26:44.584 --> 00:26:46.414 Testimonials line up with it. 00:26:46.494 --> 00:26:49.304 It's also profitable for you and it's something that's really 00:26:49.304 --> 00:26:50.384 great for the customer, right? 00:26:50.384 --> 00:26:52.054 So we're layering all those things in. 00:26:52.684 --> 00:26:54.374 And then you want to create this. 00:26:54.809 --> 00:27:01.189 What I call the wingman product or service that is in addition to this and that 00:27:01.189 --> 00:27:06.439 wingman is typically something that is also going to be a high anchor, right? 00:27:06.499 --> 00:27:11.279 So it is more expensive and likely has more stuff in it than 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:13.519 what most people would need. 00:27:14.029 --> 00:27:14.819 And you 00:27:14.969 --> 00:27:15.079 Victoria: would 00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:15.259 Yeah. 00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:18.874 Melina: talk about that thing first so that we say, okay, we've got 00:27:18.884 --> 00:27:22.014 this thing and I'm going to use much lower, easier numbers here as 00:27:22.014 --> 00:27:23.034 we're saying, but it's like, this is 00:27:23.034 --> 00:27:23.094 Victoria: the 00:27:23.124 --> 00:27:23.314 Yeah. 00:27:23.314 --> 00:27:27.604 Melina: 10,000 dollar option, and it's got the extra deals and stuff in it. 00:27:27.784 --> 00:27:28.614 We also have this 00:27:28.614 --> 00:27:29.214 Victoria: 7,500 00:27:29.214 --> 00:27:29.574 Melina: dollar one 00:27:29.574 --> 00:27:29.634 Victoria: Yeah. 00:27:29.634 --> 00:27:31.414 Melina: and it's easy for most, right. 00:27:31.444 --> 00:27:34.624 Then like most people pick this one and that's a great option for you. 00:27:34.894 --> 00:27:39.864 If you started low and say, well, we can get in as low as 2, 500 and there's 00:27:39.864 --> 00:27:42.084 the 7, 500 thing I think you should get. 00:27:42.299 --> 00:27:46.629 Or we have something that's 10, 000 like, like those are way too expensive 00:27:47.159 --> 00:27:48.059 and they might've been the same 00:27:48.069 --> 00:27:50.189 thing, but when we start high, it makes a difference. 00:27:51.682 --> 00:27:52.162 Victoria: Yeah. 00:27:52.302 --> 00:27:52.582 Yeah. 00:27:52.582 --> 00:27:54.572 So that whole anchor, uh, anchor high, 00:27:54.912 --> 00:27:57.522 uh, as, as you do in negotiations, right. 00:27:57.522 --> 00:28:01.012 Or, or anchor low, depending on which direction you want to go. 00:28:01.372 --> 00:28:09.272 Um, so, you know, I think in the industry, there's often this belief that pricing 00:28:09.372 --> 00:28:15.992 is kind of almost solely based on supply demand or solely based on cost of goods 00:28:16.092 --> 00:28:18.762 sold, or maybe not solely, but it's 80%. 00:28:19.232 --> 00:28:23.922 Let's just say 80 percent of the price is supply demand or feedstock related. 00:28:24.582 --> 00:28:25.502 How do you respond? 00:28:26.137 --> 00:28:27.547 Respond to that. 00:28:27.547 --> 00:28:31.057 When you think about that as a pricing mechanism. 00:28:31.189 --> 00:28:31.489 Melina: Yeah. 00:28:31.999 --> 00:28:34.219 Um, I disagree clearly, right. 00:28:34.229 --> 00:28:37.579 In that I wrote a book saying something else. 00:28:37.979 --> 00:28:39.209 Um, and. 00:28:39.449 --> 00:28:44.219 In the way, but if, if it's all you think about, you can very 00:28:44.219 --> 00:28:45.899 easily make it about that, right? 00:28:45.899 --> 00:28:48.269 If you don't think about all the psychology, it comes down to 00:28:48.269 --> 00:28:51.699 price because people don't have anything else to be thinking about. 00:28:51.699 --> 00:28:56.569 If you're just looking at what your competitors are pricing at and you, or 00:28:56.679 --> 00:28:59.929 going, like you said, off cost of goods sold or whatnot, and you do a percentage 00:28:59.949 --> 00:29:05.229 above and you're talking to someone about this like nitty gritty numbers stuff. 00:29:05.699 --> 00:29:05.989 Sure. 00:29:05.989 --> 00:29:08.289 They're going to focus on that because you made it about that. 00:29:09.019 --> 00:29:13.029 But if you don't, it doesn't have to be. 00:29:13.159 --> 00:29:15.979 And that's where all these psychological principles from 00:29:15.979 --> 00:29:17.209 behavioral science come in. 00:29:18.267 --> 00:29:18.687 Victoria: Yeah. 00:29:18.987 --> 00:29:22.077 So that's when you start focusing in on how are you using it? 00:29:22.077 --> 00:29:23.817 What's the, what's the value? 00:29:23.817 --> 00:29:28.047 What do you, what do you value, and how are using that in our product 00:29:28.052 --> 00:29:29.457 or in this product, et cetera. 00:29:29.457 --> 00:29:30.627 Is that how you would go into it? 00:29:30.669 --> 00:29:31.099 Melina: Yeah. 00:29:31.149 --> 00:29:35.409 And I mean, just even my favorite example to show how this, how you 00:29:35.409 --> 00:29:36.889 can break yourself free of this. 00:29:36.899 --> 00:29:40.069 So there's a chapter in The Truth About Pricing, that's called you, right. 00:29:40.229 --> 00:29:44.999 And saying that you, the collective, you are really the biggest hurdle 00:29:45.289 --> 00:29:50.359 to pricing, working, you And being able to sell things at a higher price 00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:53.659 point, if that's what works for you, it's not all about raising prices. 00:29:53.919 --> 00:29:58.529 I have examples of, you know, for value businesses where you're, how can we 00:29:58.749 --> 00:30:00.679 bring this down as much as we can, right? 00:30:00.679 --> 00:30:01.309 What are, what are our 00:30:01.309 --> 00:30:02.099 options there? 00:30:02.099 --> 00:30:05.399 If you're wanting to sell, you know, lower margins, but higher 00:30:05.399 --> 00:30:06.529 quantities and things like that. 00:30:07.129 --> 00:30:08.369 Um, so it doesn't. 00:30:08.594 --> 00:30:09.474 Have to be about that. 00:30:09.474 --> 00:30:12.334 But if we're thinking about raising prices and getting, and 00:30:12.334 --> 00:30:13.994 we're so fixed on the cost, right? 00:30:13.994 --> 00:30:16.954 I want you to imagine that you're going to be selling grilled cheese sandwiches. 00:30:18.524 --> 00:30:22.144 So when we think about a grilled cheese sandwich, uh, you as a customer, you 00:30:22.144 --> 00:30:24.024 know, how much would you pay for one? 00:30:24.024 --> 00:30:25.954 You really want a grilled cheese, 00:30:28.222 --> 00:30:28.822 Victoria: Five bucks. 00:30:29.712 --> 00:30:30.172 I don't know. 00:30:30.452 --> 00:30:31.482 It depends on where I go. 00:30:31.812 --> 00:30:34.982 If I'm going to my kitchen, it's slave labor free, right? 00:30:35.674 --> 00:30:36.094 Melina: You're right. 00:30:36.254 --> 00:30:41.174 We know that the cost of items to make a grilled cheese is maybe a dollar, right? 00:30:41.464 --> 00:30:44.324 And even a terrible cook could probably. 00:30:44.484 --> 00:30:45.404 Put one together. 00:30:45.404 --> 00:30:48.454 You could, uh, you know, make your way through this sort of thing. 00:30:48.924 --> 00:30:51.404 Uh, and like you said, maybe you pay 5 for one. 00:30:51.404 --> 00:30:53.684 I've had people say 10, 15. 00:30:53.684 --> 00:30:56.064 Uh, I think even like 20 or 25 is the highest. 00:30:56.444 --> 00:31:00.024 Uh, I've heard someone say if it's like, uh, but I'm expecting a 00:31:00.024 --> 00:31:01.284 pretty fancy grilled cheese, right? 00:31:01.294 --> 00:31:02.484 And I really wanted one. 00:31:03.164 --> 00:31:05.364 Uh, there is a restaurant in New York City. 00:31:05.654 --> 00:31:07.024 It's called Serendipity Three. 00:31:07.094 --> 00:31:11.244 They have a 214 dollar grilled cheese sandwich that they sell. 00:31:12.192 --> 00:31:12.672 Wow. 00:31:12.909 --> 00:31:13.729 And yes, 00:31:13.932 --> 00:31:14.982 Victoria: What makes it special? 00:31:15.439 --> 00:31:16.889 Melina: but so aren't you intrigued now? 00:31:16.889 --> 00:31:18.169 Don't you feel like you kind of want to 00:31:18.232 --> 00:31:19.352 Victoria: I am intrigued. 00:31:19.439 --> 00:31:20.739 Melina: to know what the hype's about, right? 00:31:20.739 --> 00:31:21.889 I want to get in on this thing. 00:31:22.439 --> 00:31:22.829 Yeah. 00:31:22.889 --> 00:31:27.069 So there's a, you know, flex of gold in the crust and it's made with Dom 00:31:27.069 --> 00:31:32.199 Perignon champagne and this very special cheese from these cows that 00:31:32.199 --> 00:31:36.079 only lactate for a certain period of time and they graze on licorice and 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:38.079 strawberries and all this stuff, right? 00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:41.649 It's like a whole thing, but this is the framing. 00:31:41.649 --> 00:31:42.329 We're priming you 00:31:42.329 --> 00:31:43.702 Victoria: And there's a whole story around it. 00:31:43.702 --> 00:31:47.414 Melina: scarcity and we want to be a part of the thing, right? 00:31:47.414 --> 00:31:49.784 Like it's really, it's, I kind of would want to try. 00:31:49.784 --> 00:31:52.884 And if I'm in New York with a family, do we do, we want to share about 00:31:52.884 --> 00:31:55.674 it on social media and be posting 00:31:55.684 --> 00:31:56.324 about it, right? 00:31:56.324 --> 00:31:57.814 Our social proof coming back in. 00:31:58.644 --> 00:32:03.044 They also have 200 French fries that had a wait list of eight to 10 00:32:03.064 --> 00:32:06.674 weeks when they launched, they have a thousand dollar vanilla Sunday. 00:32:08.244 --> 00:32:11.694 They have more normally priced things too, but imagine you're going there. 00:32:11.694 --> 00:32:14.614 Maybe you're not going to get the 200 sandwich because. 00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:19.719 You know, but you might get a 35 sandwich to say you were there 00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:20.939 and you were part of the vibe. 00:32:20.939 --> 00:32:21.149 Victoria: Right? 00:32:21.399 --> 00:32:22.689 Melina: And you want to talk about it. 00:32:22.709 --> 00:32:23.039 Right? 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.849 So that's that high anchor of something that even with these extreme 00:32:26.929 --> 00:32:27.339 Victoria: Oh, interesting. 00:32:27.409 --> 00:32:32.689 Melina: examples, right, even with the most expensive ingredients, it's not like. 00:32:32.824 --> 00:32:35.874 They're only making 14 on the sandwich when they're spending 00:32:35.874 --> 00:32:37.444 200 on ingredients, right? 00:32:37.454 --> 00:32:43.314 That's not what's happening here, but they've turned it into this vibe about the 00:32:43.314 --> 00:32:46.124 brand that we want to invest to be a part 00:32:46.124 --> 00:32:46.404 Victoria: Mmm. 00:32:46.404 --> 00:32:48.874 Melina: of it because it's Serendipity Three, right? 00:32:48.874 --> 00:32:50.404 It's what, what it is. 00:32:50.404 --> 00:32:52.294 And, and I'm, I'm part of their clients. 00:32:52.344 --> 00:32:53.254 I'm cool. 00:32:53.354 --> 00:32:54.754 I'm, I'm in the in crowd. 00:32:54.754 --> 00:32:56.194 You just wish you were cool like me. 00:32:56.314 --> 00:32:59.224 And I got, they let me buy a sandwich for them for 30 bucks. 00:33:00.902 --> 00:33:04.532 Victoria: Yeah, actually, that's a really good example of anchoring, right? 00:33:04.532 --> 00:33:09.292 The hot anchoring high, because, um, I mean, apparently somebody 00:33:09.292 --> 00:33:10.902 buys a 200 grilled cheese. 00:33:10.902 --> 00:33:14.932 And if I think about if I take this back to the chemical industry, and 00:33:14.932 --> 00:33:21.052 it'd be to be example that there there are often products that are special. 00:33:21.062 --> 00:33:25.032 Maybe they're special because, um, of the way that they're made. 00:33:25.032 --> 00:33:27.862 Their sustainability profile today is obviously a big thing. 00:33:27.872 --> 00:33:29.822 Maybe their performance criteria. 00:33:30.282 --> 00:33:31.782 Uh, but am I okay? 00:33:31.782 --> 00:33:35.382 Well, I can't necessarily make that work in formulation, but I 00:33:35.382 --> 00:33:37.252 can make the next best thing work. 00:33:37.812 --> 00:33:41.202 Um, and then the next best thing in your case, a 35 grilled 00:33:41.202 --> 00:33:42.882 cheese seems like a bargain, 00:33:43.672 --> 00:33:44.512 even though. 00:33:45.157 --> 00:33:48.907 I would never normally spend $35 for a grilled cheese. 00:33:49.177 --> 00:33:53.307 Maybe I wouldn't normally spend a dollar a pound on a particular product, but by 00:33:53.312 --> 00:33:57.717 comparison, if I'm comparing it to the product I really want, that's $10 a pound. 00:33:58.157 --> 00:34:00.527 A dollar seems really affordable. 00:34:00.532 --> 00:34:00.842 Melina: Mm-Hmm. 00:34:01.084 --> 00:34:01.354 right. 00:34:01.694 --> 00:34:05.004 And even for that's why I talk about it as the wingman, right? 00:34:05.014 --> 00:34:08.104 Instead of sometimes throughout behavioral science, you'll see this 00:34:08.104 --> 00:34:10.384 referred to as decoy pricing, right? 00:34:10.634 --> 00:34:10.864 And I 00:34:10.864 --> 00:34:11.194 Victoria: Okay. 00:34:11.304 --> 00:34:14.654 Melina: don't love that term because decoy makes it sound like 00:34:14.654 --> 00:34:16.454 the other thing is bad, right? 00:34:16.604 --> 00:34:18.344 So it shouldn't be bad, 00:34:18.374 --> 00:34:18.434 Victoria: Yeah. 00:34:18.634 --> 00:34:20.369 Melina: but it's like it's whole job though. 00:34:20.399 --> 00:34:22.949 You should be delighted if someone buys the wingman, right? 00:34:22.949 --> 00:34:24.789 Like, Hooray, how cool. 00:34:24.799 --> 00:34:25.109 Right. 00:34:25.549 --> 00:34:30.399 And the wingman's job is to make the best offer look good, right? 00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:31.619 That's what it's there to 00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:31.679 Victoria: Hmm. 00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.109 Melina: do. 00:34:32.449 --> 00:34:35.729 In this case, if you have that sustainable option or whatnot, what 00:34:35.729 --> 00:34:38.439 I have found over the years too, sometimes it's bundling, right? 00:34:38.469 --> 00:34:41.749 So you can bundle two things that you offered together. 00:34:41.989 --> 00:34:44.169 And that becomes this high anchor price. 00:34:44.179 --> 00:34:46.829 People didn't even know they could get this other thing, but like, cool. 00:34:46.839 --> 00:34:49.599 Like that's nice to know you don't have to discount it. 00:34:49.799 --> 00:34:50.539 Anything else. 00:34:50.569 --> 00:34:52.089 It can just be something that's already there. 00:34:52.089 --> 00:34:54.719 You talk about first say, or you could just start with one of them. 00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.399 And this is how much that thing would cost. 00:34:56.399 --> 00:34:56.679 Right. 00:34:57.229 --> 00:35:01.919 And people are amazed time and time again, as you create that, that wingman, you 00:35:01.919 --> 00:35:04.909 know, you have the high anchor, whether it's a bundle or something people go, Oh 00:35:04.909 --> 00:35:06.389 my, I didn't even know I could get this. 00:35:06.389 --> 00:35:08.289 Like, yes, I want this thing. 00:35:09.379 --> 00:35:10.869 Like, and then you realize, 00:35:10.869 --> 00:35:11.139 Victoria: Got it. 00:35:11.139 --> 00:35:13.129 Melina: actually the thing I thought was the high anchor is 00:35:13.129 --> 00:35:14.179 what we should really be selling. 00:35:14.189 --> 00:35:15.749 And now we can create a new wingman. 00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:16.459 Like, 00:35:16.819 --> 00:35:20.849 and it's an easy way to raise your prices as you get some, some wins. 00:35:22.037 --> 00:35:22.367 Victoria: Yeah. 00:35:22.417 --> 00:35:25.957 And as you talk about the bundling, it makes me think about, we used to, uh, and 00:35:25.957 --> 00:35:30.247 this is a practice that, um, I learned when I was at Shell and I know other 00:35:30.247 --> 00:35:35.847 companies probably followed around, um, MISO, multiple equivalent simultaneous 00:35:35.847 --> 00:35:37.707 offers, but part of the deal is that. 00:35:37.707 --> 00:35:37.777 Yeah. 00:35:38.957 --> 00:35:43.007 You know, it's not just product, it's pricing terms, it's delivery, maybe level 00:35:43.027 --> 00:35:48.887 of R and D and being able to actually pull those multiple pieces together that you 00:35:48.887 --> 00:35:50.977 may or may not have valued individually. 00:35:51.267 --> 00:35:57.587 Um, that you may or may not have considered as part of your offer, but 00:35:57.597 --> 00:36:01.307 having it be part of your offer bundle, and then being able to compare bundle 00:36:01.327 --> 00:36:02.907 A with bundle B, what do you really. 00:36:03.232 --> 00:36:08.122 What's really important to you, that as a seller, I'm happy to offer and 00:36:08.122 --> 00:36:10.132 as the buyer, you're happy to receive. 00:36:10.512 --> 00:36:13.542 And it makes it all feel more valuable. 00:36:13.794 --> 00:36:14.564 Melina: Absolutely. 00:36:14.634 --> 00:36:17.792 Victoria: And you could theoretically get a better price for it no 00:36:17.792 --> 00:36:18.952 matter how you define better. 00:36:19.644 --> 00:36:20.564 Melina: Yes, for sure. 00:36:22.582 --> 00:36:26.472 Victoria: So, you know, I've got a lot of questions for you on this, 00:36:26.492 --> 00:36:28.102 but we're going to run out of time. 00:36:28.472 --> 00:36:30.752 Um, so let me just, let me start with this. 00:36:30.802 --> 00:36:35.427 There seems to be a strong element of linguistics, right? 00:36:35.427 --> 00:36:40.797 When I think about part of your early example about how you write an email, 00:36:41.087 --> 00:36:45.377 and the response that that creates, what I might happen to say about a 00:36:45.377 --> 00:36:52.177 product or service or, um, how, I identify you as the hero in the story 00:36:52.427 --> 00:36:53.857 about getting this product or service. 00:36:53.857 --> 00:36:57.127 There seems to be a strong element of linguistics in this. 00:36:57.727 --> 00:36:58.727 Is it true? 00:36:58.747 --> 00:37:05.527 Is this about language as much as it is about value and pricing and negotiations? 00:37:05.917 --> 00:37:06.197 Hmm. 00:37:06.574 --> 00:37:10.154 Melina: And, um, you know, we've potentially opened the Pandora's 00:37:10.154 --> 00:37:12.584 box of one of my like passion spots. 00:37:12.624 --> 00:37:16.964 So we'll like, I'm going to rein myself in at least a 00:37:16.964 --> 00:37:21.884 little bit but it definitely is. 00:37:21.924 --> 00:37:26.119 And showing the power of the right word can change so much. 00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:30.879 So our brains work in associations when we're talking about things 00:37:30.899 --> 00:37:34.339 and the right word can either keep us moving forward and the wrong 00:37:34.349 --> 00:37:35.739 word can kind of throw things off. 00:37:35.759 --> 00:37:39.639 So even something as simple as if you want someone to know 00:37:39.989 --> 00:37:41.939 that it's expensive, right? 00:37:41.959 --> 00:37:43.219 For whatever you're talking about, but you don't want to 00:37:43.219 --> 00:37:44.619 be like, Hey, it's expensive. 00:37:44.669 --> 00:37:46.739 So don't talk to me unless you have money, right? 00:37:46.749 --> 00:37:49.384 Because that's, It doesn't really feel great, even just saying 00:37:49.384 --> 00:37:51.414 the word investment, right? 00:37:51.424 --> 00:37:54.434 So this would be an investment in, in your, you and whatnot, right? 00:37:54.724 --> 00:37:57.254 That one word can make a real difference. 00:37:57.674 --> 00:38:02.774 And there's an entire kind of adjacent field that is emerging that is known 00:38:02.774 --> 00:38:07.584 as cognitive semiotics, which is essentially how the mind makes meaning 00:38:07.594 --> 00:38:10.384 and understanding the power of metaphors. 00:38:10.794 --> 00:38:16.204 And the choices that we use in words and images and how that is impacting 00:38:16.264 --> 00:38:17.774 decisions people are going to make. 00:38:18.144 --> 00:38:24.624 And so the, um, research shows that every, the 20, every 25th 00:38:24.634 --> 00:38:27.964 word that we use is a metaphor. 00:38:28.604 --> 00:38:32.274 Every 25th word we say is actually a metaphor. 00:38:32.744 --> 00:38:33.494 And so 00:38:33.767 --> 00:38:34.017 Victoria: All right. 00:38:34.017 --> 00:38:37.177 Give me an example of this cause give me an example of that. 00:38:37.177 --> 00:38:37.427 Yeah. 00:38:37.427 --> 00:38:38.797 Cause I'm having a hard time believing it. 00:38:38.837 --> 00:38:40.397 Melina: Inflation is rising. 00:38:43.967 --> 00:38:44.267 Yeah. 00:38:44.267 --> 00:38:44.767 Okay. 00:38:45.614 --> 00:38:48.324 It's not, but it is right. 00:38:48.334 --> 00:38:49.904 That's how we can understand it. 00:38:50.214 --> 00:38:50.574 Right. 00:38:50.894 --> 00:38:54.474 And so we're making these associations to these sort of 00:38:54.474 --> 00:38:56.194 physical properties all the time. 00:38:56.354 --> 00:38:58.804 We talk about funds as being liquids. 00:38:59.314 --> 00:38:59.624 Right. 00:38:59.644 --> 00:39:03.734 So we have liquid assets, funds are frozen, we're drowning in debt, right? 00:39:03.734 --> 00:39:05.704 We, we use these terms all the time. 00:39:06.164 --> 00:39:11.514 We're not actually doing those things, but they are the way that we think 00:39:11.524 --> 00:39:13.324 about them and how we talk about things. 00:39:13.744 --> 00:39:19.004 And so when you can align your metaphors in a proper way, it reduces 00:39:19.344 --> 00:39:21.314 the cognitive load for someone. 00:39:21.314 --> 00:39:25.984 And so there was some research done talking about like, so if you talk about, 00:39:26.024 --> 00:39:28.349 um, Make medication for depression. 00:39:28.349 --> 00:39:29.599 And you can say it's either. 00:39:29.829 --> 00:39:32.929 So if you talk about someone being coming into the light, or 00:39:32.929 --> 00:39:34.339 they're going to be more uplifting 00:39:34.339 --> 00:39:34.399 Victoria: Yeah. 00:39:34.399 --> 00:39:34.459 Yeah. 00:39:34.479 --> 00:39:34.769 Melina: right. 00:39:35.029 --> 00:39:38.609 And when you align the metaphor, it's more impactful than if you say 00:39:38.609 --> 00:39:43.449 like, you know, depression brings you down and this medication can help. 00:39:43.669 --> 00:39:48.409 Bring you into the light, like, ok what, like that feels weird 00:39:48.479 --> 00:39:48.589 Victoria: Yeah. 00:39:48.589 --> 00:39:48.819 Right. 00:39:48.889 --> 00:39:49.179 Melina: right? 00:39:49.179 --> 00:39:53.899 But when you can line the two things up and say, you know, the problem is like 00:39:53.899 --> 00:39:58.129 this, we do this and they match, right? 00:39:58.129 --> 00:40:00.379 So depression is bringing you down. 00:40:00.449 --> 00:40:02.569 This medication will help you feel uplifted. 00:40:02.609 --> 00:40:04.009 You're going to be on the rise. 00:40:04.019 --> 00:40:06.119 You're, you're coming out of this thing, right? 00:40:06.944 --> 00:40:09.644 People just naturally go, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 00:40:09.924 --> 00:40:10.424 I get it. 00:40:11.114 --> 00:40:12.564 if we don't even realize 00:40:12.594 --> 00:40:12.744 Victoria: Got it. 00:40:12.744 --> 00:40:16.084 Melina: that we're using a metaphor, every 25th word, 00:40:16.284 --> 00:40:16.344 Victoria: Yeah. 00:40:16.724 --> 00:40:22.424 Melina: guaranteed you're mixing them up a lot and it's not lining up. 00:40:22.604 --> 00:40:22.924 Right. 00:40:23.164 --> 00:40:27.464 So if you just even think, what do we want to be and say, like here for 00:40:27.464 --> 00:40:30.634 The Brainy Businesses that we help you unlock what's possible, right. 00:40:30.924 --> 00:40:35.814 And making sure we have keys and locks and things. 00:40:36.219 --> 00:40:38.189 Open being unlocked. 00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:42.259 Uh, you know, or it's in the vault, it's not available right now, that 00:40:42.259 --> 00:40:46.019 sort of metaphor we want to go all in on because it helps with 00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:48.009 that consistency in the brain. 00:40:48.269 --> 00:40:51.629 And so again, it comes back to thoughtfulness, knowing what you're 00:40:51.629 --> 00:40:55.419 going to be about, what that means and how you can line all that up. 00:40:55.759 --> 00:40:57.419 So yes, linguistics is a part of it. 00:40:57.439 --> 00:40:58.499 Imagery is a part of it. 00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.649 And it all comes down to thoughtful alignment. 00:41:03.062 --> 00:41:03.452 Victoria: Yeah. 00:41:04.412 --> 00:41:07.842 So I know you work with a lot of companies, um, helping them 00:41:08.472 --> 00:41:10.522 understand all of these elements. 00:41:13.132 --> 00:41:18.192 And it strikes me that, you know, obviously this is introducing a 00:41:18.192 --> 00:41:21.892 new approach, um, some of which may already be happening is in, in 00:41:22.072 --> 00:41:23.742 some cases it's instinctive, right? 00:41:23.752 --> 00:41:27.622 I think for some people, some of this is instinctive. 00:41:27.707 --> 00:41:31.587 In terms of how they frame things, position things, et cetera, 00:41:31.987 --> 00:41:33.547 for others, it's not right. 00:41:33.547 --> 00:41:36.457 And I think, uh, you know, I think about The Truth About Pricing. 00:41:36.457 --> 00:41:40.187 When I think about what your customers want, it's aligning 00:41:40.287 --> 00:41:43.867 your business, you know, whether it be the salespeople, business 00:41:43.867 --> 00:41:45.897 managers, product plant, et cetera. 00:41:47.507 --> 00:41:53.527 And it's not necessarily easy to wrap your head around this and align it. 00:41:54.127 --> 00:41:59.157 So are there a couple of like easy suggestions in terms of how you 00:41:59.157 --> 00:42:05.457 find, um, the steps to get companies in their organizations aligned to 00:42:05.467 --> 00:42:07.217 being, to be thinking of this way. 00:42:07.537 --> 00:42:10.897 Um, and to be framing their conversations in this way. 00:42:11.179 --> 00:42:11.599 Melina: Yeah. 00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:12.359 And so so much. 00:42:12.579 --> 00:42:12.959 Of course. 00:42:12.969 --> 00:42:13.949 Thank you for asking that. 00:42:13.949 --> 00:42:17.109 And, you know, for us, The Brainy Business, we're at, we're teaching 00:42:17.109 --> 00:42:18.689 and mentoring organization. 00:42:18.699 --> 00:42:25.199 And so what we specialize in is helping align those trainings for organizations 00:42:25.219 --> 00:42:28.219 so they can be having, like, these are the concepts that you and your 00:42:28.219 --> 00:42:29.419 team should know around leadership. 00:42:29.699 --> 00:42:32.399 These are the concepts you should know if you're looking at pricing, or 00:42:32.399 --> 00:42:36.209 if you're looking at experience and brand design, and to be able to say, 00:42:36.269 --> 00:42:39.029 these are a few things that you should know, this is what's really going on, 00:42:39.179 --> 00:42:40.449 here's how you can start to use it. 00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:43.909 That is the core of what we do here at The Brainy Business. 00:42:43.919 --> 00:42:48.569 So people can, you don't have to go get the PhD in this and, you know, way 00:42:48.569 --> 00:42:52.029 down the road, maybe someone's going to be able to apply this for you. 00:42:52.579 --> 00:42:57.249 And so, What I recommend for people as you're getting started, right. 00:42:57.259 --> 00:42:59.029 And trying to figure out a couple things. 00:42:59.249 --> 00:42:59.309 Victoria: Yeah. 00:42:59.309 --> 00:43:02.889 Melina: you know, we talked about the email as a point that we 00:43:02.889 --> 00:43:04.709 can, we can start with, right. 00:43:04.709 --> 00:43:07.789 And if you think you like this idea of framing, right. 00:43:07.809 --> 00:43:10.239 And you, that resonated with you. 00:43:10.479 --> 00:43:11.249 You say, you know what? 00:43:11.719 --> 00:43:14.579 I'm going to be thoughtful about one more email this week, right? 00:43:14.579 --> 00:43:16.269 We micro moments too, right? 00:43:16.289 --> 00:43:18.929 It's not that we're going to go try and do everything all at once. 00:43:19.479 --> 00:43:25.079 If I'm going to do one thing, one email, every email this week, I'm going to try 00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.329 to be really thoughtful about the subject line and what I'm wanting somebody to 00:43:28.329 --> 00:43:31.269 do, or, you know, going into my sales. 00:43:31.699 --> 00:43:33.439 Calls for the next month. 00:43:33.739 --> 00:43:37.289 I'm going to think about anchoring and how I can create, what's my wing 00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:40.139 man going to be, and I'm going to try that out for a month and I'm 00:43:40.139 --> 00:43:41.519 going to see what happens, right? 00:43:41.569 --> 00:43:42.809 Test one thing. 00:43:43.524 --> 00:43:48.224 And, and go in on it, know why you're doing it and just see, right? 00:43:48.224 --> 00:43:51.264 What you can get, but you want to know what the end result is, 00:43:51.264 --> 00:43:52.714 what you're trying to accomplish. 00:43:52.914 --> 00:43:57.264 You're going to do that little test and you'll start to see some 00:43:57.274 --> 00:43:59.024 lift in a really exciting way. 00:44:00.537 --> 00:44:00.957 Victoria: Yeah. 00:44:01.447 --> 00:44:01.937 That's cool. 00:44:02.957 --> 00:44:03.337 All right. 00:44:03.397 --> 00:44:06.377 Um, my final question, and I could ask you some more, but we're going 00:44:06.497 --> 00:44:09.527 to maybe make this the final one. 00:44:09.937 --> 00:44:16.032 Um, Maybe I'm going to have to actually, um, what do you see? 00:44:16.032 --> 00:44:18.512 So you obviously work with a lot of different business leaders. 00:44:18.682 --> 00:44:24.192 What are the characteristics that stand out, um, in business leaders that are 00:44:24.192 --> 00:44:28.742 most effective in maybe leading their business, their companies or businesses 00:44:28.762 --> 00:44:36.982 or in helping them, um, Um, turn the tide towards more behavioral centricity and 00:44:36.982 --> 00:44:38.102 how they're running their businesses. 00:44:39.204 --> 00:44:40.074 Melina: I love this question. 00:44:40.104 --> 00:44:43.034 I don't, I don't think I've ever been asked this specific question 00:44:43.054 --> 00:44:44.094 and it's one of my favorite ones. 00:44:44.104 --> 00:44:44.654 So thank you. 00:44:44.814 --> 00:44:50.894 I would say that it is this, um, openness to learning. 00:44:51.174 --> 00:44:51.444 Right. 00:44:51.494 --> 00:44:58.084 Being, uh, and this like coachability feedback sort of space and knowing 00:44:58.094 --> 00:45:03.184 that, you know, this, uh, it starts with you opportunity, right? 00:45:03.184 --> 00:45:07.914 So the ripples of change start with that one thing, right? 00:45:07.914 --> 00:45:11.904 And it's nice to say, Oh, wouldn't it be great if someday we did that, but until 00:45:11.904 --> 00:45:14.004 they do this, there's nothing to be done. 00:45:14.394 --> 00:45:17.714 Those who take an action, like I'm talking about that one email, that 00:45:17.714 --> 00:45:18.994 one change you're going to make. 00:45:19.479 --> 00:45:23.379 Go do it and then you can talk about it and being able to look at yourself and 00:45:23.379 --> 00:45:25.819 saying, you know What might I be doing? 00:45:25.879 --> 00:45:30.269 That's not helping me on this journey and how might I change that and I want 00:45:30.269 --> 00:45:34.309 to learn more about that and I want to Tell other people about the value. 00:45:34.309 --> 00:45:38.639 I'm seeing you get inspired excited It's making people want to be a part of that. 00:45:38.649 --> 00:45:42.749 They want to try that little change because you are successful too, 00:45:42.819 --> 00:45:48.164 right so that openness to learning to knowing that You The way that you've 00:45:48.164 --> 00:45:53.214 done it isn't necessarily perfect and the only way or whatever that is, but 00:45:53.504 --> 00:45:58.624 opportunities for change and testing some new things out, they are, and 00:45:58.624 --> 00:46:03.204 just a general interest in humans. 00:46:04.804 --> 00:46:09.024 people and their behavior and knowing that when you work with people, 00:46:09.034 --> 00:46:14.194 things just can work better and trying to be generous with others. 00:46:14.194 --> 00:46:19.294 I, those sorts of mindsets, um, are the ones that are most receptive to 00:46:19.314 --> 00:46:24.754 behavioral economics and, uh, see lots of successes they start to implement. 00:46:26.052 --> 00:46:26.392 Victoria: Yeah. 00:46:26.482 --> 00:46:26.832 Love it. 00:46:26.902 --> 00:46:28.122 And experimentation. 00:46:28.122 --> 00:46:30.692 That's what comes to mind when you say that is being willing to 00:46:30.692 --> 00:46:33.332 experiment, um, and keep learning. 00:46:34.012 --> 00:46:34.312 Great. 00:46:34.692 --> 00:46:36.692 Well, Melina, this was really cool. 00:46:36.862 --> 00:46:40.462 Um, thank you for sharing, uh, your insights and I, you know, we 00:46:40.462 --> 00:46:43.822 touched on a lot of topics around behavioral economics and other things. 00:46:43.842 --> 00:46:46.572 I think there's a lot of food for thought here and I know you're going 00:46:46.572 --> 00:46:50.482 to be imparting some different wisdom, um, especially as we think about 00:46:50.482 --> 00:46:54.222 customers, uh, when you come to The Chemical Summit later this year. 00:46:54.262 --> 00:46:55.052 So thank you. 00:46:55.324 --> 00:46:55.644 Melina: course. 00:46:55.644 --> 00:46:56.304 Thanks for having me. 00:46:57.742 --> 00:46:57.982 Victoria: Yeah. 00:46:57.982 --> 00:46:59.662 And thank you everyone for joining us today. 00:46:59.662 --> 00:47:02.352 Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will 00:47:02.352 --> 00:47:03.932 talk with you again soon. 00:47:06.393 --> 00:47:08.173 voiceover: We've come to the end of today's podcast. 00:47:08.583 --> 00:47:11.133 We hope you enjoyed your time with us and want to learn more. 00:47:11.542 --> 00:47:13.802 Simply visit TheChemicalShow. 00:47:13.812 --> 00:47:16.562 com for additional information and helpful resources. 00:47:17.252 --> 00:47:21.302 Join us again next time here on The Chemical Show with Victoria Meyer.