WEBVTT 00:00:03.180 --> 00:00:08.070 Matt Abrahams: Communication really works when people feel comfortable speaking up 00:00:08.189 --> 00:00:10.080 and knowing that they'll be listened to. 00:00:10.350 --> 00:00:13.620 I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford 00:00:13.620 --> 00:00:14.970 Graduate School of Business. 00:00:15.270 --> 00:00:18.455 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:18.755 --> 00:00:20.805 Today I look forward to speaking with Megan Reitz. 00:00:20.915 --> 00:00:24.064 Megan is an associate fellow at the University of Oxford Business 00:00:24.064 --> 00:00:27.355 School and an adjunct professor of leadership and dialogue at Hult 00:00:27.424 --> 00:00:28.714 International Business School. 00:00:29.075 --> 00:00:32.705 Her work focuses on creating workplaces where all voices are heard 00:00:32.705 --> 00:00:36.875 and valued, especially in the face of employee activism and change. 00:00:37.205 --> 00:00:41.405 She has written several books, the most recent of which is "Speak Out, Listen Up". 00:00:41.915 --> 00:00:42.785 Welcome, Megan. 00:00:42.785 --> 00:00:45.275 I am really excited to learn from you today. 00:00:45.644 --> 00:00:46.665 Megan Reitz: Lovely to be here. 00:00:46.875 --> 00:00:48.885 I've been looking forward to this conversation. 00:00:49.214 --> 00:00:49.515 Matt Abrahams: Great. 00:00:49.515 --> 00:00:50.565 Shall we get started? 00:00:50.745 --> 00:00:51.375 Megan Reitz: Let's go. 00:00:51.614 --> 00:00:55.095 Matt Abrahams: In your work, you talk about our conversational habits. 00:00:55.095 --> 00:00:58.875 I'm curious what are these and why do we have them and can you 00:00:58.875 --> 00:01:01.785 share what your truth framework is? 00:01:01.875 --> 00:01:02.625 Megan Reitz: I can. 00:01:02.625 --> 00:01:09.470 So Matt, you and I and everybody listening right now have habits, lots of habits, 00:01:09.470 --> 00:01:13.550 but the habits I'm interested in are the habits that we have around when 00:01:13.550 --> 00:01:16.250 we speak up and when we stay silent. 00:01:16.730 --> 00:01:21.740 And also, definitely, the habits that we have around when we listen 00:01:22.010 --> 00:01:26.600 and who we listen to and what we listen to and when we don't. 00:01:27.050 --> 00:01:33.179 And those conversational habits, what we hear and what we say, they define 00:01:33.179 --> 00:01:35.009 our lives when you think about it. 00:01:35.220 --> 00:01:37.710 And they certainly define the lives of the people that are 00:01:37.710 --> 00:01:39.990 around us at work and also at home. 00:01:40.229 --> 00:01:43.920 Now, in a organizational settings, conversational habits 00:01:44.009 --> 00:01:48.210 define organizational success and our capacity to flourish. 00:01:48.390 --> 00:01:51.690 Ethical conduct depends on what we're able to say and what we aren't, 00:01:51.690 --> 00:01:52.890 and whether we're heard or not. 00:01:53.160 --> 00:01:58.330 Innovation depends on our capacity to speak up and challenge, and disrupt, 00:01:58.570 --> 00:02:00.190 and whether that is heard or not. 00:02:00.610 --> 00:02:04.870 And of course, our engagement and our ability to perform depends 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:08.680 on a feeling that our opinion is valued and that we're respected. 00:02:08.949 --> 00:02:13.120 So that's the territory that I'm most interested in terms of our habits 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:16.390 and what our habits mean, and of course, how we disrupt our habits. 00:02:16.630 --> 00:02:20.230 And in our research, we've asked thousands and thousands of 00:02:20.230 --> 00:02:22.265 people, why don't they speak up? 00:02:22.565 --> 00:02:25.804 So I'll just ask again, the people that are listening, think about something 00:02:25.804 --> 00:02:31.174 right now that you feel you could or should speak up about, but you haven't. 00:02:31.565 --> 00:02:34.924 And then think about why haven't you spoken up about them? 00:02:35.195 --> 00:02:39.334 And I've asked lots and lots of people that question and come up with what we 00:02:39.334 --> 00:02:43.655 call the TRUTH framework, which is five factors that affect our choice around 00:02:43.655 --> 00:02:45.755 whether we speak up or stay silent. 00:02:45.960 --> 00:02:48.720 And whether we choose to listen or not. 00:02:48.990 --> 00:02:51.780 And very briefly, the T stands for trust. 00:02:51.990 --> 00:02:55.500 So to speak up, I have to trust in the value of my opinion. 00:02:55.740 --> 00:02:59.640 And to listen, I have to trust the value of other people's opinions. 00:02:59.790 --> 00:03:01.500 R stands for risk. 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:06.090 So when I'm speaking, I tend to think about what the consequences are and 00:03:06.090 --> 00:03:10.200 of course we can catastrophize about that, but we're often worried about 00:03:10.200 --> 00:03:13.605 our relationship, we're worried about being perceived negatively. 00:03:13.785 --> 00:03:20.025 If we are listening, we need to understand how those speaking to us experience risk. 00:03:20.265 --> 00:03:22.035 U stands for understanding. 00:03:22.035 --> 00:03:25.545 And it's understanding power and politics because speaking up and 00:03:25.545 --> 00:03:28.245 listening is political, a political act. 00:03:28.565 --> 00:03:32.015 The second T is for titles and labels, 'cause if there's one thing 00:03:32.015 --> 00:03:36.605 that affects what gets said and who gets heard, it's our construction of 00:03:36.605 --> 00:03:39.274 status and authority within a system. 00:03:39.394 --> 00:03:41.195 And the H is the how to. 00:03:41.255 --> 00:03:45.515 I, I may have something to say, but unless I have the words and the person and the 00:03:45.515 --> 00:03:48.145 time and the place, I'll stay silent. 00:03:48.340 --> 00:03:52.000 And similarly, I may want to invite other people to speak, but unless 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.570 I know how to do that skillfully, I'm not gonna hear a thing. 00:03:55.900 --> 00:03:57.370 So that's the TRUTH framework. 00:03:57.370 --> 00:04:00.820 We really use it to help people to understand why they do what they do 00:04:00.820 --> 00:04:02.650 and how to disrupt it if they need to. 00:04:02.950 --> 00:04:06.040 Matt Abrahams: Everybody knows I love a good acronym and I want to dive deeper 00:04:06.040 --> 00:04:11.140 into it, but the broader point here, our willingness to share our opinions, 00:04:11.140 --> 00:04:18.044 to speak up, as you say, is inhibited and restricted due to a lot of things 00:04:18.164 --> 00:04:20.654 beyond our control, some in our control. 00:04:20.925 --> 00:04:26.265 And if we really want to be functional in an organization and in our relationships, 00:04:26.265 --> 00:04:27.854 we have to really work on this. 00:04:27.854 --> 00:04:29.835 And I appreciate you highlighting the problem. 00:04:30.044 --> 00:04:33.380 I'd like to dive into the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth. 00:04:33.740 --> 00:04:37.250 A couple things stand out to me that I'd love for you to just to dive deeper into. 00:04:37.490 --> 00:04:40.880 So you talk about understanding, you talk about titles and labels, 00:04:40.880 --> 00:04:44.330 so there's a political status, performative nature in this. 00:04:44.330 --> 00:04:46.730 I'd love for you to share a little bit more about how we can be 00:04:46.730 --> 00:04:50.270 sensitive to this, and what we can do when we feel that we are being 00:04:50.270 --> 00:04:54.530 restricted in our communication and not listened to, as a result of the 00:04:54.530 --> 00:04:56.570 politics and status that are at play. 00:04:57.105 --> 00:04:57.615 Megan Reitz: Yes. 00:04:57.615 --> 00:05:01.275 As I said, if there is one thing that affects the conversations that we have 00:05:01.275 --> 00:05:06.015 at work and outside of work, it's how we are busy constructing our status and 00:05:06.015 --> 00:05:07.905 authority in relation to other people. 00:05:08.295 --> 00:05:11.865 So a kind of practical way to think about this is, think about all the 00:05:11.865 --> 00:05:15.705 titles and labels that we throw around in an organizational system. 00:05:15.975 --> 00:05:19.665 So we've got things like hierarchy, of course, hierarchical labels. 00:05:20.340 --> 00:05:22.560 We have things like gender. 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:28.289 We have things like expertise, department, the number of years you've been in an 00:05:28.289 --> 00:05:33.630 organization, we've got reputational labels, you name it, we label, it 00:05:33.690 --> 00:05:35.460 inside an organizational system. 00:05:35.460 --> 00:05:39.480 And depending on organizational culture, fascinating thing is that 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:44.340 these labels and titles convey relative levels of status and authority. 00:05:44.664 --> 00:05:48.205 Depending on the context, so you can't really generalize about them. 00:05:48.414 --> 00:05:53.395 So I often in my work ask, people which titles and labels affect 00:05:53.395 --> 00:05:55.650 voice in your organization. 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:00.390 For example, people might say, if you're in the executive management board, 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:05.190 obviously everybody listens to you, but not if you are further down the hierarchy. 00:06:05.430 --> 00:06:10.260 Or they might say, if you are in commercial, you lucky person, you 00:06:10.260 --> 00:06:14.010 kind of rule, everybody listens to you, but if you're in HR, you have 00:06:14.010 --> 00:06:16.560 a more tricky time, or vice versa. 00:06:16.799 --> 00:06:19.349 Yeah, there, there isn't really any patterns here. 00:06:19.650 --> 00:06:24.510 So these titles and labels and our understanding of power, in particular 00:06:24.510 --> 00:06:29.580 help, not only when we're speaking up, but also really when we are listening up. 00:06:29.909 --> 00:06:33.210 So this brings me just to something that we have in our research 00:06:33.210 --> 00:06:34.859 called advantage blindness. 00:06:34.859 --> 00:06:40.710 So when we have the in inverted commas "right" labels in a system, in other 00:06:40.710 --> 00:06:46.065 words, the high status labels, we are actually very unlikely to notice the 00:06:46.065 --> 00:06:48.045 impact that they have on other people. 00:06:48.285 --> 00:06:52.335 If we have the wrong labels, or the underdog labels, the less 00:06:52.335 --> 00:06:58.230 status labels, it's actually really obvious to us the impact that has. 00:06:58.450 --> 00:07:02.490 And advantage blindness is the fact that when we're, I don't know, chief 00:07:02.490 --> 00:07:06.420 executive, and we come from commercial and we've been in the organization 00:07:06.420 --> 00:07:10.860 for 10 years and we have a good reputation, our experience is that we 00:07:10.860 --> 00:07:12.920 can speak up and everybody listens. 00:07:13.110 --> 00:07:17.560 And we tend to then assume that's everybody else's experience too. 00:07:17.860 --> 00:07:21.700 So what it means, particularly, as you go up the hierarchy, is you are very 00:07:21.700 --> 00:07:26.260 likely to overestimate the degree to which other people are speaking up around you. 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:31.420 You'll probably overestimate as well how approachable you are, and you're 00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:34.659 almost certainly overestimating your listening skills as well. 00:07:34.930 --> 00:07:39.310 So this means that we can have this what I call an optimism bubble going 00:07:39.310 --> 00:07:43.470 on, and that's ever so important, particularly if you're in positions of 00:07:43.470 --> 00:07:48.330 power and your leaders and managers, and frankly, to do your job well, you 00:07:48.330 --> 00:07:50.640 need to hear what you need to hear. 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:52.860 Matt Abrahams: I think you hit the nail on the head there 00:07:52.860 --> 00:07:54.240 with this notion of awareness. 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:58.140 Everything I'm hearing you say certainly rings true, in terms of 00:07:58.380 --> 00:08:02.520 where you are in the hierarchy, your experience, your title, that all 00:08:02.520 --> 00:08:07.230 influences how much you perceive others listen to you and understand. 00:08:07.230 --> 00:08:12.900 And we carry that idea that others have that same experience, even though their 00:08:12.900 --> 00:08:15.060 rank status experience is different. 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:16.440 So it's about awareness. 00:08:16.440 --> 00:08:19.020 So I'm curious, how do we build awareness? 00:08:19.020 --> 00:08:24.810 How do we burst that opportunity bubble and really leverage advantage blindness? 00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:25.710 What do we do? 00:08:26.055 --> 00:08:27.405 Megan Reitz: Yes, it's a good question. 00:08:27.615 --> 00:08:31.725 The first thing is that, as I said, power probably affects our 00:08:31.725 --> 00:08:36.255 conversations more than anything else, and wonderfully, ironically, if there 00:08:36.255 --> 00:08:39.855 is a conversation we are least likely to have at work, it's about power. 00:08:40.155 --> 00:08:44.174 It's this capacity to open up an understanding of how this is 00:08:44.385 --> 00:08:50.055 influencing our conversations at work in a way that sparks curiosity and 00:08:50.055 --> 00:08:51.945 interest as opposed to defensiveness. 00:08:52.215 --> 00:08:54.825 And a lot of my research is about doing exactly that. 00:08:55.215 --> 00:08:59.505 But I talk about three traps in particular, that people in positions 00:08:59.505 --> 00:09:00.975 of power need to be aware of. 00:09:00.975 --> 00:09:04.965 And the first trap is around knowing that you're probably more 00:09:04.965 --> 00:09:06.255 intimidating than you realize. 00:09:07.185 --> 00:09:10.965 So, as I said, we tend to think we're lovely and approachable, but 00:09:10.965 --> 00:09:14.835 because of the titles and labels we wear, actually, it's not so much. 00:09:15.045 --> 00:09:18.885 Our first article in Harvard Business Review, which is about probably nearly 00:09:18.885 --> 00:09:23.415 10 years ago now on this research was called "The Problem with Saying My Door 00:09:23.415 --> 00:09:27.855 Is Always Open." And it's not a problem to say that, it's a problem if you think 00:09:27.855 --> 00:09:30.705 anybody's actually gonna walk into your office and tell you what you need to hear. 00:09:30.885 --> 00:09:36.135 So first thing is just be aware of power and be aware about how those 00:09:36.135 --> 00:09:38.895 labels mean you might be intimidating. 00:09:39.045 --> 00:09:41.745 And then you need to put the other person at their ease. 00:09:41.955 --> 00:09:46.365 Choosing environments, choosing your moments, choosing your questions, we might 00:09:46.365 --> 00:09:48.195 come onto that, there's lots to say there. 00:09:48.405 --> 00:09:50.745 But how can you reduce the risk for the other person? 00:09:51.265 --> 00:09:55.045 The second trap is around echo chambers, essentially. 00:09:55.345 --> 00:09:59.305 So we often go to the same people for opinions and advice. 00:09:59.515 --> 00:10:03.505 Of course we do, because we trust them, but we need to question that list of 00:10:03.505 --> 00:10:05.485 people that we tend to go to all the time. 00:10:05.635 --> 00:10:10.435 And even more so, you know, cast our attention a little bit wider and ask 00:10:10.435 --> 00:10:16.695 ourselves, actually, who am I not hearing from right now that in order to be a 00:10:16.695 --> 00:10:21.555 brilliant manager, leader, whatever, I really need to know what they're thinking? 00:10:21.585 --> 00:10:23.325 So who aren't I including? 00:10:23.325 --> 00:10:27.045 An echo chamber is a very dangerous place for a leader to be, but it 00:10:27.045 --> 00:10:30.225 can be all too common, especially as you go up the hierarchy. 00:10:30.530 --> 00:10:34.730 And the third trap I refer to, very pragmatically, is 00:10:34.790 --> 00:10:37.040 the signals that we send. 00:10:37.045 --> 00:10:42.560 I, I often say we send what I call shut up signals rather than speak up signals. 00:10:42.949 --> 00:10:46.790 And I'll give you one example, and I'll use myself as an example here. 00:10:46.969 --> 00:10:50.540 I have this rather unfortunate habit, and maybe some of the people 00:10:50.540 --> 00:10:54.319 listening can relate to this, when I happen to be very thoughtful and 00:10:54.319 --> 00:10:58.610 interested in what somebody's saying, I can on occasion have, what is 00:10:58.690 --> 00:11:02.410 politely known as, a thinking face. 00:11:02.680 --> 00:11:07.480 And I frown and I can look a little bit intimidating, actually. 00:11:07.870 --> 00:11:10.060 And I know that that's one sort of signal. 00:11:10.060 --> 00:11:14.680 You know, another signal, a classic signal, is when we are meeting virtually. 00:11:15.340 --> 00:11:20.350 We can absolutely tell, can't we, who's doing their emails, trying to be subtle 00:11:20.350 --> 00:11:21.940 about them, but failing miserably. 00:11:21.940 --> 00:11:25.450 I don't know why we all think we can do our emails without anybody else noticing, 00:11:25.630 --> 00:11:27.580 but of course, it's always noticeable. 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.160 And if you have somebody around you that is trying to build up the confidence 00:11:33.160 --> 00:11:37.420 to say something important, and then they look at you and you either 00:11:37.420 --> 00:11:42.340 look really intimidating or clearly, completely distracted by something else. 00:11:42.565 --> 00:11:43.105 Guess what? 00:11:43.105 --> 00:11:44.305 They're gonna stay silent. 00:11:44.605 --> 00:11:48.445 Knowing our signals, as Nancy Kleiner, past colleague of mine, 00:11:48.685 --> 00:11:50.965 beautifully said, know your face. 00:11:51.175 --> 00:11:53.935 Do you know what signals you are sending? 00:11:54.115 --> 00:11:58.405 Particularly, and I'll, let me underline this one, Matt, particularly 00:11:58.405 --> 00:12:00.235 when somebody has spoken up. 00:12:00.415 --> 00:12:03.444 And you know what, maybe they've not done it very well because 00:12:03.444 --> 00:12:04.735 they've been really nervous. 00:12:04.885 --> 00:12:09.355 The signals we send in the next couple of seconds determine whether 00:12:09.355 --> 00:12:10.855 that person's gonna speak up again. 00:12:11.095 --> 00:12:16.194 So that bit of self-awareness is utterly vital. 00:12:16.194 --> 00:12:17.995 And actually, we can train it. 00:12:18.270 --> 00:12:21.030 A lot of my research is on mindful leadership. 00:12:21.090 --> 00:12:25.110 I know we can train our attention, we can train our levels of self-awareness. 00:12:25.350 --> 00:12:28.650 We can also make sure that there are people around us that can dig us in the 00:12:28.650 --> 00:12:34.199 ribs at the right opportunity to make sure that we keep altering our habits and let 00:12:34.199 --> 00:12:36.300 us know about the impact that they have. 00:12:36.689 --> 00:12:40.050 Matt Abrahams: I really appreciate you identifying the traps that we all 00:12:40.050 --> 00:12:45.045 fall into that that really accentuate and bring, in some cases, adversity 00:12:45.045 --> 00:12:49.695 to our communication around the ideas of status and power and politics. 00:12:50.025 --> 00:12:54.255 So this idea that we are often perceived as more intimidating than we are. 00:12:54.465 --> 00:12:58.035 I have had that experience in my own life where people have told me, or I've 00:12:58.035 --> 00:13:01.455 learned that people find me intimidating and I feel that's not the case. 00:13:01.635 --> 00:13:05.055 The notion of echo chambers, who we're actually seeking information from. 00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:08.420 And then how we show up and what we show people. 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.960 All of these can work against inviting others to speak up. 00:13:11.990 --> 00:13:15.290 I like the term of shut up signals, and it's important, 00:13:15.290 --> 00:13:16.520 again, that self-awareness. 00:13:16.520 --> 00:13:21.110 And it strikes me that having trusted others who can give you genuine feedback 00:13:21.170 --> 00:13:25.040 about how you're showing up and perhaps even digitally recording yourself and 00:13:25.040 --> 00:13:29.840 watching and seeing it would be two key ways to enhance your own self-awareness. 00:13:30.275 --> 00:13:35.975 I'm curious if the mindfulness work that you do fits into how we can 00:13:35.975 --> 00:13:40.865 better set up psychological safety and be present in those moments. 00:13:40.865 --> 00:13:41.824 Do you have some thoughts? 00:13:41.824 --> 00:13:45.425 I, I was curious about this mindful leadership idea 00:13:45.425 --> 00:13:46.595 that you mentioned earlier. 00:13:47.175 --> 00:13:50.805 Megan Reitz: I'll actually just get people listening to pause at that moment 00:13:50.805 --> 00:13:57.495 and notice their response to the word mindful and mindfulness, because it 00:13:57.495 --> 00:14:02.985 carries quite a lot of baggage, sometimes incredibly positive and sometimes less. 00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:05.510 And there's quite a lot of misunderstanding around what 00:14:05.510 --> 00:14:08.330 it means, similar actually, to the word psychological safety. 00:14:08.690 --> 00:14:11.210 I am interested in habit change, right? 00:14:11.630 --> 00:14:18.110 Now, to change your habits, you have to have the capacity, when you are 00:14:18.110 --> 00:14:24.470 about to do what you've always done, to notice that in the moment and 00:14:24.470 --> 00:14:26.510 then choose to do something else. 00:14:27.105 --> 00:14:30.615 So that is at the heart of all habit change. 00:14:30.885 --> 00:14:36.135 And we know from our research, from wide selection of research now, that it is 00:14:36.135 --> 00:14:44.250 possible with practice to train our brain to be more aware in that present moment. 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:50.610 So to have that, what we might call metacognition, that notices our thoughts, 00:14:50.610 --> 00:14:55.020 our feelings, our sensations, our actions in the moment when we're doing it. 00:14:55.350 --> 00:15:00.090 And the research that we did, I did with Michael Chaskalson, examined 00:15:00.090 --> 00:15:02.400 whether we can train leaders in that. 00:15:02.550 --> 00:15:08.385 And our research found that with 10 minutes or more, preferably, practice 00:15:08.385 --> 00:15:13.155 a day with certain sorts of practices with the brain, you can indeed build 00:15:13.155 --> 00:15:15.225 that level of in the moment awareness. 00:15:15.645 --> 00:15:22.319 So that you open up actually a very small space where you can choose your 00:15:22.319 --> 00:15:26.040 response rather than being on autopilot. 00:15:26.339 --> 00:15:30.930 Now, we'll never do that all the time, but if we could do it just 10% 00:15:30.930 --> 00:15:34.949 more of the time, of course, that would have potentially quite profound 00:15:34.949 --> 00:15:36.990 impact on ourselves and on others. 00:15:37.349 --> 00:15:41.490 The very interesting thing is that we could argue that attention is the 00:15:41.490 --> 00:15:47.715 most valuable thing that we feasibly have, and nearly all of us don't train. 00:15:48.135 --> 00:15:50.655 How crazy is that if you ask me? 00:15:51.015 --> 00:15:51.855 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:15:51.975 --> 00:15:53.745 I really like the way you define mindfulness. 00:15:53.745 --> 00:15:57.015 I have been somebody who has been attempting to practice mindfulness 00:15:57.015 --> 00:16:00.944 for many years now, and a few things that you've mentioned that 00:16:00.944 --> 00:16:03.735 I think are critical is really, it's where you put that attention. 00:16:04.095 --> 00:16:08.495 And giving yourself that little bit of space to distance yourself from 00:16:08.495 --> 00:16:11.225 the interaction from the emotion you're feeling, from whatever, to then 00:16:11.225 --> 00:16:13.235 make a choice is really important. 00:16:13.715 --> 00:16:17.825 When I coach people who have extreme anxiety in speaking in front of 00:16:17.825 --> 00:16:21.065 others or communicating with others, a really powerful mindfulness 00:16:21.065 --> 00:16:24.425 tool is simply to say, this is me feeling nervous in this moment. 00:16:24.875 --> 00:16:27.365 And that distance that gives you that opportunity. 00:16:27.365 --> 00:16:31.925 And I can see as leaders or as people who are really trying to be in the 00:16:31.925 --> 00:16:35.835 moment, just reminding yourself, this is me doing this, gives you 00:16:35.835 --> 00:16:38.205 that perception and that opportunity. 00:16:38.355 --> 00:16:41.265 So I very much appreciate you highlighting the fact that we 00:16:41.265 --> 00:16:42.495 need to train that attention. 00:16:42.765 --> 00:16:47.265 What I have found in my own life is finding physical activities, help me 00:16:47.265 --> 00:16:50.805 train my attention, that I can then bring that learning into my interaction. 00:16:50.805 --> 00:16:54.015 So many people listening know I've done martial arts for a long time. 00:16:54.015 --> 00:16:57.045 Sometimes people do a sport, sometimes they play music, 00:16:57.045 --> 00:16:58.455 sometimes they walk in nature. 00:16:58.455 --> 00:17:01.935 All of those are ways of training your attention and you can then 00:17:01.935 --> 00:17:05.025 bring that to the communication and the interactions we have. 00:17:05.355 --> 00:17:07.694 You know, Megan, this has been a fascinating conversation. 00:17:07.694 --> 00:17:11.115 I think what you study is really interesting and really, really helpful. 00:17:12.375 --> 00:17:14.805 Before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions. 00:17:14.805 --> 00:17:17.295 One I make up just for you and the other two I've been asking 00:17:17.355 --> 00:17:20.595 everyone as long as this podcast has existed, are you up for that? 00:17:20.655 --> 00:17:21.105 Megan Reitz: Yes. 00:17:21.105 --> 00:17:21.845 Go for it, Matt. 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:25.290 Matt Abrahams: So you had mentioned that one of the things you have become 00:17:25.290 --> 00:17:31.230 aware of is how you appear, your face if you will, in interactions. 00:17:31.260 --> 00:17:36.150 I'm curious, how did you learn about that in hopes that others can follow the 00:17:36.150 --> 00:17:38.070 process so we can learn how we come off? 00:17:38.430 --> 00:17:40.440 And what have you done to change that? 00:17:40.740 --> 00:17:43.950 Megan Reitz: Yeah, that's a lovely question and I'm grinning from ear to 00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:47.730 ear because do you know, I think 'cause there is an irony with this, okay. 00:17:47.730 --> 00:17:51.630 Because if you are in a position of power or you're a little bit intimidating, 00:17:52.215 --> 00:17:55.455 nobody's going to tell you that you've got a thinking face because they're too 00:17:55.455 --> 00:17:59.355 intimidated to tell you, and you are none the wiser, and so you can just stay in 00:17:59.355 --> 00:18:01.215 this beautiful bubble without a clue. 00:18:01.485 --> 00:18:04.725 And I do come across many people that discover it for the first time in an 00:18:04.725 --> 00:18:07.125 anonymous 360, and they go, what the hell? 00:18:07.335 --> 00:18:11.115 I would say that the person that really landed that 00:18:11.115 --> 00:18:12.945 feedback with me was my husband. 00:18:13.665 --> 00:18:17.865 I remember particularly, we were on a train journey and I can't, I think 00:18:17.865 --> 00:18:20.565 there was somebody in the carriage obviously that was either having a 00:18:20.565 --> 00:18:23.835 very loud conversation or behaving in a way that I didn't agree with, and I 00:18:23.835 --> 00:18:27.225 clearly had it written all over my face. 00:18:27.225 --> 00:18:31.245 And I remember my husband just saying, honestly, it's like a loud 00:18:31.245 --> 00:18:33.315 speaker coming from you at the moment. 00:18:33.375 --> 00:18:35.505 Do you know how much you are communicating? 00:18:35.895 --> 00:18:40.400 And so it got me quite interested and I think I have practiced 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.920 mindfulness 25 years, I think. 00:18:43.370 --> 00:18:48.140 And as you will see videos of me in various places, goodness me, I 00:18:48.140 --> 00:18:51.680 don't get this right all of the time, but I'm better than I used to be. 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.730 So, I do have a little bit of that awareness that just says, 00:18:55.730 --> 00:18:59.000 hang on, Megan, what are you doing with your face right now? 00:18:59.390 --> 00:19:03.680 And so I have built that practice through my husband and my mindfulness work. 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:07.610 Matt Abrahams: So the take home message there is that trusted others can give 00:19:07.610 --> 00:19:11.510 us this feedback, and perhaps sometimes we have to solicit it to learn about it. 00:19:11.690 --> 00:19:14.750 And I can certainly tell you as somebody who has had the pleasure of being able to 00:19:14.750 --> 00:19:18.290 see you and not just listen to you, many of folks listen to this without watching 00:19:18.290 --> 00:19:20.480 the videos, I do not see that face at all. 00:19:20.520 --> 00:19:23.670 You have been very engaged, so well done on you. 00:19:23.670 --> 00:19:27.120 But the notion that we have to hear from others external to us, and 00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:30.270 then consciously work on it and give ourselves a little bit of grace that 00:19:30.270 --> 00:19:31.560 we're not gonna get it right every time. 00:19:31.560 --> 00:19:32.070 Megan Reitz: Absolutely. 00:19:32.070 --> 00:19:37.500 And a little bit of humor helps, a bit of lightness and curiosity helps rather 00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:39.120 than taking it all a bit too seriously. 00:19:39.120 --> 00:19:39.210 Matt Abrahams: Yes. 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:43.320 A little dash of levity in all interactions can make things better. 00:19:43.710 --> 00:19:47.700 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:48.060 --> 00:19:52.320 Megan Reitz: So there are so many people I could list here, but my mind went straight 00:19:52.350 --> 00:19:57.975 to my co-researcher and co-author, John Higgins, and I'll tell you why. 00:19:58.245 --> 00:20:03.675 Not only is he, he's absolutely superb communicator himself in terms of how he 00:20:03.675 --> 00:20:07.845 describes our research and advocates, but the reason why he comes straight 00:20:07.845 --> 00:20:14.025 to my mind as a amazing communicator is because of his capacity and 00:20:14.025 --> 00:20:17.205 skill in helping me to communicate. 00:20:17.535 --> 00:20:23.055 So when we walk, we have a practice where every couple of weeks we go for long walks 00:20:23.205 --> 00:20:26.175 together without a particular agenda. 00:20:26.265 --> 00:20:33.250 And John, through his capacity to utterly turn his attention to me, his 00:20:33.250 --> 00:20:42.690 curiosity and his amazing questions he helps me to then discover stuff that he 00:20:42.690 --> 00:20:48.450 then responds to, and then together we can create some really amazing things. 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:50.590 So John is the person that comes to mind. 00:20:51.270 --> 00:20:54.060 Matt Abrahams: I love that you answered that question not because 00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:57.930 he's a good communicator, although you say he is, but that he brings 00:20:57.930 --> 00:21:00.060 out good communication in you. 00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.630 And what a treasure to have people like that in our lives. 00:21:03.630 --> 00:21:07.080 And I hope all of us can find people who can help us in that capacity. 00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:12.600 So my final question for you, what are the first three ingredients that go 00:21:12.600 --> 00:21:15.180 into a successful communication recipe? 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:23.400 Megan Reitz: So I would say number one is genuine curiosity that requires our 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:30.660 ability to turn our attention and also to something I call mutuality, to really 00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:34.440 see and value the other person in that. 00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:37.889 And to be honest, I don't think you can do that via techniques. 00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:42.210 I think that's something that's more of a kind of orientation and a value. 00:21:42.570 --> 00:21:48.690 The second thing in a recipe would be a, an understanding awareness and a 00:21:48.690 --> 00:21:54.870 deep fascination with power dynamics because of the way that that affects 00:21:55.060 --> 00:21:56.830 what gets said and who gets heard. 00:21:57.220 --> 00:22:02.170 And the third thing I would say is creating the space to have 00:22:02.170 --> 00:22:04.210 different sorts of conversation. 00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:09.580 Having the courage within systems that are tight and busy and in the doing 00:22:09.580 --> 00:22:15.670 mode, how do you create that space for yourself and others to have those really 00:22:16.050 --> 00:22:18.990 meaningful and important conversations. 00:22:18.990 --> 00:22:20.790 So those are my three ingredients. 00:22:21.120 --> 00:22:21.780 Matt Abrahams: I love them. 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:26.070 Curiosity, I like this notion of mutuality, appreciation of the 00:22:26.070 --> 00:22:29.820 power and status that's at play in the moment, and then thinking about 00:22:29.820 --> 00:22:34.620 ways to allow for spaciousness so the connection can really occur. 00:22:34.890 --> 00:22:39.000 Megan, this has been a really insightful and fascinating 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:40.650 conversation in so many ways. 00:22:41.040 --> 00:22:43.170 You've helped us understand the truth. 00:22:43.410 --> 00:22:47.970 I love the acronym T.R.U.T.H., and you really helped us think through 00:22:48.120 --> 00:22:54.000 how we can truly allow ourselves to speak up and speak out and help others. 00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.225 And I wish you well with your book, "Speak Out, Listen Up". 00:22:57.735 --> 00:23:00.375 Thank you so much for your time and for your insight. 00:23:00.675 --> 00:23:01.425 Megan Reitz: Thank you, Matt. 00:23:01.425 --> 00:23:02.445 I've really enjoyed it. 00:23:04.965 --> 00:23:06.824 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:23:06.824 --> 00:23:08.925 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:23:09.165 --> 00:23:13.044 To learn more about psychological safety, listen to our episode 132 00:23:13.064 --> 00:23:16.514 with Amy Edmondson and to learn more about leadership, listen to 00:23:16.514 --> 00:23:19.034 episode 148 with Irv Grousbeck. 00:23:19.514 --> 00:23:23.955 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:23:24.495 --> 00:23:25.965 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:23:25.965 --> 00:23:28.365 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:23:28.605 --> 00:23:32.025 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:23:32.085 --> 00:23:34.035 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:23:34.395 --> 00:23:37.395 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:23:37.815 --> 00:23:41.865 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:23:41.865 --> 00:23:43.875 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:23:44.355 --> 00:23:47.805 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:23:48.075 --> 00:23:53.685 AMAs, Ask Matt Anything, and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.