[00:00:09.12 - 00:00:11.21] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:11.22 - 00:00:15.19] Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on leaders of
[00:00:15.21 - 00:00:19.06] businesses that people love to work for.
[00:00:19.16 - 00:00:21.22] My name is Andreas Konstantinou.
[00:00:22.00 - 00:00:26.19] I see myself as a micromanager turned servant leader who developed a passion for
[00:00:26.21 - 00:00:28.07] workplace culture.
[00:00:28.09 - 00:00:31.09] I'm also the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that helps businesses create
[00:00:31.10 - 00:00:35.12] healthier workplace cultures by turning their culture into a KPI.
[00:00:36.18 - 00:00:40.15] Today I have the pleasure of welcoming Lisa Gill.
[00:00:40.19 - 00:00:45.04] Lisa is an organizational and self-management coach and trainer with Tuff
[00:00:45.06 - 00:00:46.12] Leadership Training.
[00:00:46.18 - 00:00:51.22] She was included in the Thinkers 50 Radar 2020 for her work with self-managing
[00:00:52.00 - 00:00:52.21] teams.
[00:00:53.06 - 00:00:57.09] Lisa is also the host of the Leadermorphosis podcast for which she has
[00:00:57.10 - 00:01:01.10] interviewed almost a hundred future of work pioneers.
[00:01:01.12 - 00:01:05.18] And she's also the author of Moose Heads on the Table.
[00:01:05.21 - 00:01:10.01] stories about self-managing organizations from Sweden.
[00:01:10.09 - 00:01:15.04] And she tells me she has lived in Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, and Singapore as a
[00:01:15.06 - 00:01:15.15] child.
[00:01:15.16 - 00:01:17.16] So quite a diverse experience.
[00:01:17.18 - 00:01:22.10] And she's also learning the ukulele, if I'm pronouncing that correctly.
[00:01:23.13 - 00:01:27.03] So very welcome to Rethink Culture, Lisa.
[00:01:27.04 - 00:01:28.15] Thank you for having me.
[00:01:29.22 - 00:01:31.10] So where do we start?
[00:01:31.12 - 00:01:39.04] Tell us a little bit about who is Lisa and what are self-managing organizations
[00:01:39.06 - 00:01:45.22] for those that haven't heard the term before and what got you here?
[00:01:46.19 - 00:01:49.15] Wow, a trio of big questions.
[00:01:52.09 - 00:01:54.07] So, who am I?
[00:01:54.09 - 00:02:00.12] Well, I'm from the UK, as you can perhaps hear in my accent.
[00:02:01.04 - 00:02:07.03] But as you said, I grew up from the age of five in Southeast Asia, and I currently
[00:02:07.04 - 00:02:08.10] live in Barcelona.
[00:02:08.12 - 00:02:12.22] So I suppose I'm someone that has always been interested in cultures, because I've
[00:02:13.00 - 00:02:16.03] been exposed to very different ones
[00:02:16.21 - 00:02:18.03] my whole life.
[00:02:19.07 - 00:02:23.22] And in fact, there's a term for what I am, which I find interesting, which is third
[00:02:24.00 - 00:02:26.06] culture kid, TCK.
[00:02:26.12 - 00:02:31.01] So because I because I don't really identify with the culture of where I was
[00:02:31.03 - 00:02:33.04] born or the culture of my parents.
[00:02:34.00 - 00:02:36.01] I'm like this third culture kid.
[00:02:36.03 - 00:02:37.21] So I'm sort of
[00:02:38.12 - 00:02:40.04] Yeah, I don't feel very English.
[00:02:40.06 - 00:02:45.03] So maybe that also has informed who I am because I've always felt a little bit of
[00:02:45.04 - 00:02:49.07] an outsider or a bit of an anthropologist trying to figure out what the cultural
[00:02:49.09 - 00:02:51.07] norms are so that I can fit in.
[00:02:51.21 - 00:02:55.09] And maybe you weren't attached to any particular culture, so it's easier to put
[00:02:55.10 - 00:02:57.04] yourself in an observer position.
[00:02:57.06 - 00:02:58.07] Yeah, yeah, maybe.
[00:02:58.09 - 00:02:59.07] Yeah, that's true.
[00:02:59.09 - 00:03:01.22] Yeah.
[00:03:02.12 - 00:03:05.16] And then I went on to study drama at university.
[00:03:05.18 - 00:03:10.19] So I think that continued this interest in people and I really enjoyed...
[00:03:10.21 - 00:03:11.22] I'm an introvert.
[00:03:12.00 - 00:03:15.18] So I'm... sometimes people are surprised when I say I was an actress because I'm quite
[00:03:15.19 - 00:03:16.18] shy.
[00:03:17.03 - 00:03:22.19] But for me, it was an opportunity to sort of inhabit other people, know, people
[00:03:22.21 - 00:03:24.09] nothing like me
[00:03:25.12 - 00:03:30.07] on stage and really try and understand why did they do what they do and also the
[00:03:30.09 - 00:03:34.13] kind of miracle of ensembles coming together for a short amount of time.
[00:03:34.15 - 00:03:39.10] People often write about like Hollywood teams and how they create these incredibly
[00:03:39.12 - 00:03:42.07] complex productions so I was very interested in that too.
[00:03:42.09 - 00:03:45.22] And then I took a while to find out what my thing was.
[00:03:46.00 - 00:03:50.16] So I tried working in the arts, but I found that very frustrating and ironically
[00:03:50.18 - 00:03:54.01] quite uncreative if you're at the bottom of the ladder.
[00:03:54.10 - 00:03:57.00] And then I tried a number of different sectors.
[00:03:57.01 - 00:04:00.19] I worked for a software company, travel company, all kinds of things.
[00:04:00.21 - 00:04:03.12] I was a very frustrated employee.
[00:04:03.13 - 00:04:09.22] So think that's also informed my passion for helping kind of create the conditions
[00:04:10.00 - 00:04:14.04] for people to be their best selves instead of having lots of frustrated employees
[00:04:14.06 - 00:04:18.00] that are kind of constrained by the structure of an organization.
[00:04:19.12 - 00:04:22.19] And then I worked in learning and development for a while and then I read
[00:04:22.21 - 00:04:26.07] this book Reinventing Organizations by Frederic Laloux.
[00:04:26.18 - 00:04:29.13] And that really spoke to me.
[00:04:29.15 - 00:04:33.18] It was this very soulful business book and it pointed to that there's another way of
[00:04:33.19 - 00:04:38.00] organizing behind besides the sort of hierarchical pyramid.
[00:04:38.15 - 00:04:43.01] And that was where I learned for the first time about self-managing organizations.
[00:04:43.03 - 00:04:50.19] So organizations where authority is kind of fully distributed and decentralized is
[00:04:50.21 - 00:04:52.06] one definition.
[00:04:52.12 - 00:04:55.01] So you have self-managing teams sometimes, but a self-managing
[00:04:55.03 - 00:04:56.19] organization for me is super interesting.
[00:04:56.21 - 00:05:03.03] mean, that's like at the radical end of the spectrum where, yeah, there's no,
[00:05:03.16 - 00:05:04.18] there are hierarchies.
[00:05:04.19 - 00:05:06.09] That's one thing I learned.
[00:05:07.03 - 00:05:12.15] But they're much more dynamic hierarchies and they are, you could say, hierarchies
[00:05:12.16 - 00:05:13.19] of choice.
[00:05:13.21 - 00:05:18.22] So there is leadership in bossless organizations, but it is a different kind
[00:05:19.00 - 00:05:26.01] of leadership and it's a leadership that kind of flows to and where it's needed and
[00:05:26.03 - 00:05:29.00] leaders know when to step in and when to step out.
[00:05:29.18 - 00:05:34.09] So that's been like a key thread of things that I've been exploring.
[00:05:34.12 - 00:05:37.22] Does that, I think I answered in a very roundabout way, perhaps all three of those
[00:05:38.00 - 00:05:39.12] questions, I'm not quite sure.
[00:05:39.19 - 00:05:43.09] And for those who haven't heard about self-managing organizations, a fairly
[00:05:43.10 - 00:05:44.19] widespread concept now, right?
[00:05:44.21 - 00:05:50.12] I'm not sure if it's early adopter or about to hit mass market, where is it in a
[00:05:50.13 - 00:05:53.07] spectrum, but it's fairly well adopted, right?
[00:05:53.09 - 00:05:55.13] What's some examples in your mind?
[00:05:55.15 - 00:05:56.10] Hmm.
[00:05:56.12 - 00:06:02.04] Well, it's interesting because it's, I mean, one thing is that it's not new.
[00:06:02.06 - 00:06:03.16] So you're right to say that.
[00:06:03.18 - 00:06:08.04] There have been versions of self-managing organizations for decades.
[00:06:08.06 - 00:06:10.19] And you could say maybe pre-industrial revolution.
[00:06:10.21 - 00:06:13.15] Perhaps that was much more how we used to organize.
[00:06:14.22 - 00:06:16.09] And now there's much more interest.
[00:06:16.10 - 00:06:20.01] So it is more established now in companies like Bayer, the big pharmaceutical
[00:06:20.03 - 00:06:21.21] company, B-A-Y-E-R.
[00:06:21.22 - 00:06:26.10] They are now making this big move towards what they call dynamic shared ownership,
[00:06:26.12 - 00:06:32.15] DSO, inspired by the company that originated in China, Hire, that also did a
[00:06:32.16 - 00:06:36.00] similar thing with like micro enterprises.
[00:06:36.07 - 00:06:41.13] So big organizations now are kind of, you know, looking in that direction.
[00:06:42.01 - 00:06:44.18] But it's still a very small percentage, very
[00:06:44.19 - 00:06:46.12] small percentage of companies.
[00:06:46.13 - 00:06:51.15] I think I'm aware of about maybe a hundred or so that are working in this way, which
[00:06:51.16 - 00:06:53.12] is not that much.
[00:06:53.16 - 00:06:58.18] But I think my favorite example is probably Buurtzorg, which is a nursing
[00:06:58.19 - 00:07:03.18] organization in the Netherlands that has, at this point, I think somewhere between 10
[00:07:03.19 - 00:07:07.22] and 14 ,000 employees and no managers.
[00:07:08.00 - 00:07:12.03] And they have a very small back office staff of about 50 people, I think, last I
[00:07:12.04 - 00:07:12.22] checked.
[00:07:13.18 - 00:07:18.19] And so they work in self-managing teams of 12 and all of those self-managing
[00:07:18.21 - 00:07:23.04] teams of nurses they decide everything they decide their
[00:07:23.12 - 00:07:29.04] schedule, they decide which patients they look after, they organize everything
[00:07:29.06 - 00:07:36.18] supported by a team coach and Buurtzorg has the best results in the Netherlands in
[00:07:36.19 - 00:07:41.13] terms of employee satisfaction, patient satisfaction, their overhead costs are
[00:07:41.15 - 00:07:47.01] like a third of their competitors because they're so efficient, they don't have all
[00:07:47.03 - 00:07:49.12] of this bureaucracy kind of bogging them down.
[00:07:49.22 - 00:07:53.19] So it's a really great case study that many kind of business schools have studied
[00:07:53.21 - 00:07:57.13] because it proves that this can really work, even at scale.
[00:07:57.15 - 00:08:00.06] So that's very exciting.
[00:08:00.21 - 00:08:06.01] And Morningstar as well, the biggest tomato manufacturer in the US.
[00:08:07.09 - 00:08:11.09] I don't know how many thousands of employees they have, but they also work on
[00:08:11.15 - 00:08:13.07] self-managed principles.
[00:08:13.09 - 00:08:14.04] Yeah, they do.
[00:08:14.06 - 00:08:16.07] And seasonal employees too.
[00:08:16.09 - 00:08:20.09] So that's kind of tricky and complex to manage, but they have some very clever,
[00:08:20.10 - 00:08:24.22] simple but powerful principles and practices that help them do that.
[00:08:25.13 - 00:08:29.18] Do you think self-managing cultures are for every company?
[00:08:29.19 - 00:08:32.01] Is it a niche?
[00:08:34.15 - 00:08:36.07] Is it a niche thing?
[00:08:36.12 - 00:08:38.07] Or is it something that...
[00:08:41.21 - 00:08:47.18] Given enough time, where do you think this paradigm of leadership will end up?
[00:08:49.03 - 00:08:50.22] Yeah, it's a really good question.
[00:08:51.18 - 00:08:55.12] I kind of mentioned before that I had learned that self-managing organizations
[00:08:55.13 - 00:08:57.10] do have hierarchies.
[00:08:57.12 - 00:09:01.07] And that was because I, in the beginning of me discovering self-managing
[00:09:01.09 - 00:09:04.21] organizations, I was very anti-hierarchy.
[00:09:05.19 - 00:09:09.00] And in my mind, it was like, hierarchy is the problem.
[00:09:09.01 - 00:09:11.04] We need to eliminate hierarchy.
[00:09:11.06 - 00:09:13.15] If we do that, everything will be wonderful.
[00:09:14.09 - 00:09:20.04] And I realized that that was a very limited and constraining worldview because
[00:09:20.06 - 00:09:21.09] hierarchy is just
[00:09:21.10 - 00:09:26.21] technology, could say it's neither good nor bad and it really depends on how...
[00:09:27.03 - 00:09:31.16] how you do it and with what purpose and intention.
[00:09:31.22 - 00:09:37.10] And I think similarly, my original thinking was all organizations should be
[00:09:37.12 - 00:09:38.04] self-managing.
[00:09:38.06 - 00:09:40.03] This is surely what everyone wants.
[00:09:40.04 - 00:09:43.04] This is, why isn't every organization doing this?
[00:09:44.03 - 00:09:47.04] And I met someone early on in my journey, actually, who challenged me on that and
[00:09:47.06 - 00:09:51.03] said, well, you think that because you like this way of working, you know, this
[00:09:51.04 - 00:09:51.19] suits you.
[00:09:51.21 - 00:09:56.18] Like I'm quite independent and I'm a very like self-directed learner and
[00:09:58.06 - 00:10:02.01] And I've since realized that I think my current working theory is I don't think it
[00:10:02.03 - 00:10:03.12] is for everyone.
[00:10:04.13 - 00:10:05.18] And I don't think it should be.
[00:10:05.19 - 00:10:09.04] I think there are probably some organizations where it makes sense to have
[00:10:09.06 - 00:10:13.09] a more traditional management hierarchy.
[00:10:13.10 - 00:10:16.18] And in other contexts, it might really make sense to have a more self-managed
[00:10:16.19 - 00:10:17.10] one.
[00:10:17.12 - 00:10:22.13] And there's some research now, there's an academic called Michael Lee, and he's been
[00:10:22.15 - 00:10:23.19] researching
[00:10:24.12 - 00:10:26.12] decentralized ways of organizing for a while.
[00:10:26.13 - 00:10:29.00] I really admire his work.
[00:10:29.04 - 00:10:34.19] And he did one study where they found that for certain types of people, if the
[00:10:34.21 - 00:10:39.01] organization transformed to self-management, it really worked for them.
[00:10:39.03 - 00:10:40.01] They really thrived.
[00:10:40.03 - 00:10:45.16] And those people were people who were already interested in the idea, that were
[00:10:45.18 - 00:10:47.15] competent at their job.
[00:10:48.21 - 00:10:54.04] And I think it was that they also had a degree of kind of being able to manage
[00:10:54.06 - 00:10:55.01] themselves.
[00:10:55.03 - 00:11:00.10] But for people who were not so interested or unaware of it or who were not so
[00:11:00.12 - 00:11:04.12] competent or confident in their job, it actually made things worse.
[00:11:04.21 - 00:11:07.01] So I think there is definitely...
[00:11:08.12 - 00:11:13.09] It's also the case that many organizations like Zappos, for example, when they adopt
[00:11:13.10 - 00:11:20.00] this way of working, usually somewhere between 10 and 20 % of employees leave for
[00:11:20.01 - 00:11:24.04] that reason, that some people don't like to work in that way.
[00:11:24.06 - 00:11:26.18] Either you're a manager and you like
[00:11:28.03 - 00:11:32.16] managing or you're an employee and you like having a manager you don't want to
[00:11:32.18 - 00:11:38.01] have extra responsibility or you know be working on governance and stuff like that
[00:11:38.03 - 00:11:44.06] so so I think it's important that people have choice so that's like where I am with
[00:11:44.07 - 00:11:45.09] that I think
[00:11:46.16 - 00:11:54.06] I think any cultural transformation will end up losing the people that were...
[00:11:56.04 - 00:12:00.21] orienting themselves to a very different, the original culture.
[00:12:01.07 - 00:12:07.13] I experienced it in my company when I was in a default culture versus an intentional
[00:12:07.15 - 00:12:08.01] culture.
[00:12:08.03 - 00:12:13.03] And there were people, actually some of the people who were in the original
[00:12:13.04 - 00:12:17.03] culture were the ones that got me thinking because something inside of me was telling
[00:12:17.04 - 00:12:25.19] me this is not the culture I want to experience and help others experience.
[00:12:25.21 - 00:12:27.00] as a leader.
[00:12:27.15 - 00:12:33.10] And so it was kind of a counter will or a conscious knowing that this is not the
[00:12:33.12 - 00:12:35.03] culture I wanted to have.
[00:12:35.06 - 00:12:41.00] But when the culture transformed, a lot of these people did end up leaving because
[00:12:41.01 - 00:12:44.01] they were the people that didn't like the new culture.
[00:12:44.03 - 00:12:50.10] And it's like, you know, it's like a relationship, you you always have a very,
[00:12:50.12 - 00:12:52.00] very particular
[00:12:53.04 - 00:12:57.15] affinity and choice for a kind of person that you want to have a relationship with.
[00:12:57.16 - 00:12:59.18] No one is for everyone.
[00:13:00.18 - 00:13:08.04] And so, you know, we might maybe extrapolate and say that self-managing
[00:13:08.06 - 00:13:16.01] cultures for sure are for people who love to take responsibility and ownership for
[00:13:16.03 - 00:13:23.04] their intentions and actions and not those for who those that would rather
[00:13:23.06 - 00:13:26.00] rely on someone else to take responsibility.
[00:13:26.01 - 00:13:29.04] And you know, that's all works of life and all works of people.
[00:13:29.06 - 00:13:29.22] Yeah, exactly.
[00:13:30.00 - 00:13:33.10] I don't want to imply that one is good or bad or better than the other.
[00:13:33.12 - 00:13:38.03] And it's, I like your metaphor of the relationship because I think it's also...
[00:13:38.15 - 00:13:43.01] Maybe people listening can also relate to having a relationship where one of the
[00:13:43.03 - 00:13:48.06] people in the relationship grows, develops in some way, has either some life
[00:13:48.07 - 00:13:53.09] experience or does some course or something and grows in another direction.
[00:13:53.10 - 00:13:59.04] And the other person, they kind of drift apart. And that's, it doesn't mean that the
[00:13:59.06 - 00:14:02.15] relationship was bad and you shouldn't try and force it.
[00:14:02.16 - 00:14:06.16] So I think those people that left your organization, for example, of course it's
[00:14:06.18 - 00:14:08.12] sad when people leave, but then
[00:14:08.13 - 00:14:13.01] good to support them to find something that aligns with them and where they are
[00:14:13.03 - 00:14:17.00] either at that stage in their life or just in terms of their values and I think
[00:14:17.01 - 00:14:18.12] that's a healthy thing.
[00:14:19.00 - 00:14:25.06] And on a personal note, as a person, I love learning and evolving.
[00:14:25.12 - 00:14:28.13] And I mentioned I'm part of this Entrepreneur Organization.
[00:14:28.15 - 00:14:31.15] A lot of us are in it for learning and developing.
[00:14:31.21 - 00:14:38.15] And one of the issues with that is if your spouse or if your employees are not
[00:14:38.16 - 00:14:44.13] developing at the same velocity that you are, then you're creating a gap that keeps
[00:14:44.15 - 00:14:45.16] increasing over time.
[00:14:45.18 - 00:14:46.06] Yes.
[00:14:46.15 - 00:14:49.16] And that creates distance and misunderstanding and...
[00:14:53.06 - 00:14:56.15] you know, dissatisfaction and everything that comes with it.
[00:14:56.19 - 00:14:59.06] Yeah, I always say to people that it's...
[00:14:59.16 - 00:15:03.15] That's something to be aware of, especially if you're the founder or the
[00:15:03.16 - 00:15:07.21] CEO and you've read some book like Reinventing Organizations or you've been
[00:15:07.22 - 00:15:13.19] on this personal development trajectory to remember that if you come back to the
[00:15:13.21 - 00:15:17.00] company and announce, hey, we're going in this direction or we're doing this, that
[00:15:17.01 - 00:15:19.10] that's the first they're hearing of that.
[00:15:19.12 - 00:15:21.22] And people will grow at different rates.
[00:15:22.00 - 00:15:27.01] So then I think it's super important to create spaces for people to process that
[00:15:27.03 - 00:15:29.16] together, to be compassionate,
[00:15:29.18 - 00:15:35.10] to be curious about what people need, to watch out for like us versus them camps.
[00:15:35.12 - 00:15:39.01] I've seen that a lot where you have the people who are really excited by self
[00:15:39.03 - 00:15:42.16] -management and reading all of the stuff and listening to all of the podcasts and
[00:15:42.18 - 00:15:47.07] then the people who are a bit more skeptical, tentative, hesitant and it's
[00:15:47.09 - 00:15:52.04] easy to form this us versus them like, they're slowing things down or they're
[00:15:52.06 - 00:15:53.10] speeding ahead.
[00:15:53.12 - 00:15:58.15] So again, like creating these spaces for people to raise these what we call in
[00:15:58.16 - 00:15:59.22] tough moose heads,
[00:16:00.00 - 00:16:06.10] and talk them through, put them on the table and make sure we keep communicating
[00:16:06.12 - 00:16:10.18] through that instead of interpreting or projecting.
[00:16:12.06 - 00:16:18.01] Yeah, this problem of the CEO reading or learning of something and coming in and
[00:16:18.03 - 00:16:22.03] announcing is a classic case.
[00:16:23.06 - 00:16:28.04] I mentioned before the earlier guest Arnie Malham talks about it and he created the
[00:16:28.06 - 00:16:31.04] Better Book Club to solve this as a problem.
[00:16:31.06 - 00:16:35.03] So he says, know, if you're hungry for learning, you're going to read lots of
[00:16:35.04 - 00:16:38.21] stuff and some of it will be very useful and some of it will resonate, some of it
[00:16:38.22 - 00:16:40.16] will be very applicable.
[00:16:40.18 - 00:16:45.09] So what you do, you can't tell people, you know, go and read that book and start
[00:16:45.10 - 00:16:50.06] applying it because that's where the resistance starts kicking in.
[00:16:51.09 - 00:16:53.06] You need to create the safe spaces like you said.
[00:16:53.07 - 00:16:58.22] So what he's done is something maybe original or counterintuitive.
[00:16:59.00 - 00:17:01.03] He's paying people to read books.
[00:17:02.00 - 00:17:06.22] And you pay people to read books just to get off the friction, to reduce the
[00:17:07.00 - 00:17:09.15] friction of saying, why should I read a book?
[00:17:09.16 - 00:17:11.22] Well, actually, you know, there's a benefit.
[00:17:12.00 - 00:17:15.12] There's very, you know, materialistic benefit to me reading a book.
[00:17:15.13 - 00:17:17.12] But once you get the habit of it, then
[00:17:18.00 - 00:17:19.06] you have a learning organization.
[00:17:19.07 - 00:17:23.09] Another approach is what I hear you say, which is create safe spaces.
[00:17:23.18 - 00:17:28.22] So how do you create safe spaces for people to learn your skills and develop
[00:17:29.00 - 00:17:30.03] shared language?
[00:17:31.03 - 00:17:31.19] Mmm.
[00:17:31.21 - 00:17:34.16] Yeah, well in
[00:17:35.01 - 00:17:40.01] in Tuff, like that's really been the big question for us is like why we're called
[00:17:40.03 - 00:17:46.13] Tuff leadership training, for example, is because it's tough to shift your mindset
[00:17:46.15 - 00:17:51.22] and to transform your way of being, which is what we believe is, is needed if we
[00:17:52.00 - 00:17:56.13] want to have a new paradigm of leadership, because we're very much still in this
[00:17:56.15 - 00:18:00.19] paradigm of leadership, which you could characterize as like a parent child
[00:18:00.21 - 00:18:02.00] dynamic,
[00:18:03.09 - 00:18:07.06] where if I'm the manager, how I'm being is a bit like a parent.
[00:18:07.07 - 00:18:11.09] I'm kind of swooping in, solving things, taking care of you.
[00:18:11.22 - 00:18:16.12] And it's very comfortable for employees in a parent-child culture because I can just
[00:18:16.13 - 00:18:19.04] sort of wait for my manager to solve things or...
[00:18:21.21 - 00:18:28.01] But if we want to move to something that's more adult to adult, that's more distributed
[00:18:28.03 - 00:18:30.06] leadership, then that takes a big shift.
[00:18:30.07 - 00:18:34.04] And that you can't get from reading a book, we would claim.
[00:18:35.09 - 00:18:40.13] And so what we've tried to do over the last 20 years is create these safe spaces
[00:18:40.15 - 00:18:48.21] and also brave spaces where people can try out new ways of being with each other,
[00:18:48.22 - 00:18:53.13] practicing difficult conversations, like how to give feedback, like tough feedback,
[00:18:53.15 - 00:18:57.06] or how to have a relationship conflict if there's like a relationship breakdown
[00:18:57.07 - 00:18:59.00] between you and a colleague.
[00:19:00.18 - 00:19:05.13] And getting lots and lots of feedback from your Tuff trainer or your Tuff coach.
[00:19:05.15 - 00:19:12.09] So we're trained to pick up people's ways of being and their kind of pitfalls.
[00:19:12.21 - 00:19:15.12] So most managers tend to be people who are
[00:19:16.10 - 00:19:21.19] fast, smart, responsible, you know, all these great qualities.
[00:19:21.21 - 00:19:25.16] But when it's too much of those things, it becomes a pitfall.
[00:19:25.18 - 00:19:30.13] So then it's like, if I'm leading someone and they sense that I'm going to solve
[00:19:30.15 - 00:19:34.04] something, then they don't draw on their own capacity to solve things.
[00:19:34.06 - 00:19:35.16] I kind of train them to be helpless.
[00:19:35.18 - 00:19:36.10] So...
[00:19:43.12 - 00:19:44.19] like or a dojo space, right?
[00:19:44.21 - 00:19:49.19] Where you try out things that are new, scary, or using new muscles.
[00:19:50.12 - 00:19:55.21] So of course having a beginner mindset is really important, making it safe to make
[00:19:55.22 - 00:19:56.09] mistakes.
[00:19:56.10 - 00:19:57.21] We encourage that.
[00:19:58.00 - 00:20:05.10] Getting feedback, getting support, being challenged, seeing your blind spots, you
[00:20:05.12 - 00:20:06.21] know, all of this stuff.
[00:20:07.12 - 00:20:09.01] And we encourage people to keep doing that.
[00:20:09.03 - 00:20:10.15] So we have these workout sessions.
[00:20:10.16 - 00:20:14.06] So anyone that does a course with us can then join these workout sessions, which
[00:20:14.07 - 00:20:18.16] are like two hours online where you retrain again, like going back to the gym.
[00:20:18.18 - 00:20:19.19] You know, it's never done.
[00:20:19.21 - 00:20:22.15] You always have to keep working those muscles, right?
[00:20:24.07 - 00:20:30.16] So we think those spaces where it's safe to say, this is scary, this is hard.
[00:20:30.18 - 00:20:33.15] I mean, it's an identity crisis really.
[00:20:33.21 - 00:20:40.13] So many people it's sharing things like, I didn't realize how much I don't listen or
[00:20:40.15 - 00:20:44.21] how automatic it is for me to come with solutions.
[00:20:45.03 - 00:20:46.19] And that's, that's quite scary.
[00:20:46.21 - 00:20:50.03] That's quite confronting because I don't know how to stop doing that or how to
[00:20:50.04 - 00:20:51.13] interrupt that.
[00:20:51.15 - 00:20:53.18] And also what is my value
[00:20:53.21 - 00:20:56.03] as a leader if I'm not doing that.
[00:20:56.04 - 00:21:01.19] Like that's very confronting for people often so to have a space where they can
[00:21:01.21 - 00:21:08.01] say that and feel heard in that and feel seen in that helps the brain I think
[00:21:08.03 - 00:21:10.07] digest these difficult things.
[00:21:10.09 - 00:21:15.15] I'm reading this book at the moment called Hospicing Modernity by I think her name is
[00:21:15.16 - 00:21:18.09] Vanessa Machado de Oliveira.
[00:21:18.18 - 00:21:25.04] And she talks about probiotic education, which I love, whish is like, traditional
[00:21:25.06 - 00:21:28.13] education is about like mastery and achievement and control.
[00:21:28.15 - 00:21:34.12] Probiotic education is like an education that helps people be with and digest
[00:21:34.13 - 00:21:37.09] difficult things, uncomfortable things.
[00:21:38.15 - 00:21:41.10] So I think that's what we're trying to do and I think that's why we're called Tuff.
[00:21:41.12 - 00:21:46.12] It's like to put you in situations that push you out of your comfort zone,
[00:21:46.13 - 00:21:51.16] confront you with your blind spots so that you have access to more choice.
[00:21:52.19 - 00:21:58.21] Is there something people can try at home or at work, like one framework that you
[00:21:58.22 - 00:22:04.06] use for getting everyone to feel comfortable about sharing weaknesses?
[00:22:05.03 - 00:22:07.00] Or it's not formula based?
[00:22:07.18 - 00:22:10.01] Well, I mean, so one...
[00:22:10.15 - 00:22:16.06] Actually, another thing that I learned language for from a paper that Michael Lee
[00:22:16.07 - 00:22:21.06] wrote, who I mentioned earlier, he did a study where they were trying to support
[00:22:21.07 - 00:22:28.03] teams to improve their dynamics to create more positive relational dynamics, I think
[00:22:28.04 - 00:22:29.07] was how they framed it.
[00:22:29.09 - 00:22:33.01] And they found that two things made a difference.
[00:22:33.03 - 00:22:35.01] One was safe spaces.
[00:22:35.03 - 00:22:39.12] In other words, spaces that are separate to the day to day work.
[00:22:39.13 - 00:22:40.22] So they created these
[00:22:41.03 - 00:22:47.13] calls I think once a week or something like that where they weren't talking about
[00:22:47.15 - 00:22:48.10] work.
[00:22:48.15 - 00:22:52.09] And then the second thing was interaction scripts.
[00:22:52.12 - 00:22:58.16] So then they gave them these little mini scripts or prompts to help them take kind
[00:22:58.18 - 00:23:01.00] of interpersonal risks.
[00:23:01.06 - 00:23:04.19] And those can be really simple things like, you know, many people listening to
[00:23:04.21 - 00:23:08.00] this would be familiar with like check-ins and checkouts, right?
[00:23:08.01 - 00:23:11.15] So a check-in question is an example of an interaction script.
[00:23:11.18 - 00:23:15.10] So you might ask someone, what is something that you're afraid of in your
[00:23:15.12 - 00:23:16.13] leadership?
[00:23:17.09 - 00:23:19.19] Or say, you know, finish the sentence.
[00:23:19.21 - 00:23:23.22] One thing I'm afraid of in my leadership is, and you can have people either say it
[00:23:24.00 - 00:23:27.16] out loud or you can have them type it in the chat if you're in a remote meeting, or
[00:23:27.18 - 00:23:32.22] you can use like liberating structures, which is another set of structures that I
[00:23:33.00 - 00:23:33.13] really like.
[00:23:33.15 - 00:23:36.07] And there's one called one, two, four, all,
[00:23:36.22 - 00:23:41.04] where you could ask a question like that, for example, and for one minute people
[00:23:41.06 - 00:23:43.21] reflect on it silently, individually.
[00:23:44.04 - 00:23:49.01] Then they get into pairs and for two minutes they share what came up for them.
[00:23:49.03 - 00:23:53.10] Then they join another pair and they become a four and for four minutes they
[00:23:53.12 - 00:23:55.01] share highlights from that.
[00:23:55.03 - 00:23:59.03] And then you get the whole group back together and just for five minutes you
[00:23:59.04 - 00:24:02.01] hear, one highlight from each of the groups of four.
[00:24:02.03 - 00:24:06.22] So within 15 minutes everyone has had some time.
[00:24:07.00 - 00:24:11.00] You know, if you're an introvert like me, you've had a bit of time by yourself first,
[00:24:11.04 - 00:24:15.13] you've processed it through a pair and then a four and then in the whole group.
[00:24:16.21 - 00:24:22.04] So you can ask quite provocative questions, like the one I mentioned, in a
[00:24:22.06 - 00:24:24.13] structure like that that makes it safe.
[00:24:26.01 - 00:24:27.09] So that's like a simple thing.
[00:24:27.10 - 00:24:31.09] And I guess the other thing I would say what we start all our courses with is
[00:24:32.00 - 00:24:33.03] agreements.
[00:24:33.09 - 00:24:39.00] So we ask people, what would you need in order to feel safe here?
[00:24:39.03 - 00:24:44.15] We're going to be trying out things that are new and uncomfortable and what would
[00:24:44.16 - 00:24:45.19] help you to do that?
[00:24:45.21 - 00:24:50.03] And we have some suggestions, but people then become responsible, co-responsible
[00:24:50.04 - 00:24:52.10] for creating the container together.
[00:24:52.12 - 00:24:55.09] So it's like a very simple, basic thing, but very powerful.
[00:24:55.10 - 00:25:03.21] Another framework I've heard, inspired by Patrick Lencioni, I think it was in the
[00:25:03.22 - 00:25:12.16] book Advantage if I'm not mistaken, he talks about getting a team to discuss
[00:25:12.18 - 00:25:17.01] their weaknesses and something you can do is you can take something like Gallup's
[00:25:17.03 - 00:25:23.12] StrengthsFinder, which basically rates your strengths or least strengths by
[00:25:23.13 - 00:25:24.06] a scale.
[00:25:24.16 - 00:25:28.06] 34 of them and which are the top and which are the bottom and then you get people to
[00:25:28.07 - 00:25:30.01] talk about the bottom ones.
[00:25:30.12 - 00:25:34.19] You get them to talk about the the top ones of course because that's kind of who
[00:25:34.21 - 00:25:41.12] we are and reveals a bit about how we think and make choices but the least
[00:25:41.13 - 00:25:50.18] strong ones, effectively the weakest ones, are essentially giving everyone permission
[00:25:51.09 - 00:25:57.01] to talk about something that, it's not something I admitted, but it's something
[00:25:57.03 - 00:26:03.06] that someone else told me that they see in me and I can kind of resonate with it.
[00:26:04.13 - 00:26:07.18] And so getting people to talk about their weaknesses or least strengths, I think
[00:26:07.19 - 00:26:13.03] gives permission to everyone to be more empathetic and understanding.
[00:26:13.12 - 00:26:18.16] Like, oh no, now I know why you made that decision or that's why you spoke to me
[00:26:18.18 - 00:26:20.16] that way last week.
[00:26:20.18 - 00:26:22.19] And gives people understanding.
[00:26:26.09 - 00:26:35.18] I want to go back to you, Lisa, and one thing that transformed your life you
[00:26:35.19 - 00:26:39.13] mentioned to me earlier in the pre-show was meeting Karin.
[00:26:42.06 - 00:26:48.03] Walk me through that story and how it changed the way you approach your work
[00:26:48.04 - 00:26:49.00] now.
[00:26:49.09 - 00:26:50.13] Yeah.
[00:26:51.18 - 00:27:03.01] So I, um, in 2015, I had set up my own company by this point, Reimaginaire, and I
[00:27:03.03 - 00:27:06.10] was starting to work with companies that were interested in exploring new ways of
[00:27:06.12 - 00:27:10.12] working, but I was very much focused on structures and processes.
[00:27:10.13 - 00:27:15.00] As I said, I was like, hierarchy, evil, smash hierarchy, good.
[00:27:16.21 - 00:27:22.00] And then I met this woman, Dunia Roberta, at an event that was called Why Aren't
[00:27:22.01 - 00:27:23.16] Organizations Shifting?
[00:27:23.18 - 00:27:25.15] Which is a great name for an event.
[00:27:25.19 - 00:27:28.00] And she and I hit it off right away.
[00:27:28.01 - 00:27:34.10] And she invited me to her house in Portugal in January 2016, along with a
[00:27:34.12 - 00:27:41.09] group of 10 other people who were interested in the idea of
[00:27:41.10 - 00:27:47.00] buying companies and transforming them into self-managing or TEAL companies.
[00:27:47.01 - 00:27:50.03] TEAL is the term from the book Reinventing Organizations.
[00:27:50.21 - 00:27:54.19] Because her theory was if we wait for leaders, CEOs, founders to become
[00:27:54.21 - 00:27:56.19] enlightened, it's going to take too long.
[00:27:58.21 - 00:28:02.19] In Portugal, one of the people in this group, there were 12 of us, was Karin,
[00:28:02.21 - 00:28:04.09] Karin Tenelius.
[00:28:04.19 - 00:28:07.16] And she had been doing exactly that since the 90s.
[00:28:07.18 - 00:28:12.19] So first of all, I was like, wow, I'm only just learning about this in 2014.
[00:28:12.21 - 00:28:15.04] And she's been doing it since the 90s.
[00:28:15.06 - 00:28:16.07] She's a pioneer.
[00:28:16.09 - 00:28:19.22] She was very inspired by Ricardo Semler and his book Maverick.
[00:28:20.00 - 00:28:26.03] She had applied those ideas to a few small businesses in Sweden, like a hotel and an
[00:28:26.04 - 00:28:27.12] education company.
[00:28:28.09 - 00:28:32.09] And her approach was not at all to do with structures and processes.
[00:28:32.10 - 00:28:38.22] It was starting from the mindset, from how we communicate the kind of conversations
[00:28:39.00 - 00:28:46.01] that we have, and coaching people to have cultures of much higher trust and
[00:28:46.03 - 00:28:46.15] openness.
[00:28:46.16 - 00:28:48.18] That was like a key pillar.
[00:28:49.10 - 00:28:54.06] So I was mesmerized by this woman and these stories that she was telling.
[00:28:54.07 - 00:28:55.18] I was like, this is amazing.
[00:28:56.10 - 00:28:59.15] And so she and I decided to write a book together.
[00:28:59.16 - 00:29:03.03] She wanted my help in kind of pulling together all of these stories of the
[00:29:03.04 - 00:29:05.00] organizations she'd transformed.
[00:29:05.01 - 00:29:09.19] And in the process of writing that book, I also joined a course of her company, Tuff
[00:29:09.21 - 00:29:11.06] Leadership Training.
[00:29:11.12 - 00:29:16.13] And I fell in love with this company and what they were doing and decided to become
[00:29:16.15 - 00:29:18.01] a trainer with them.
[00:29:18.09 - 00:29:22.13] And Karin is like, she's such a beautiful example of what we've been talking about
[00:29:22.15 - 00:29:22.22] so far.
[00:29:23.00 - 00:29:31.07] On paper, she's the CEO of Tuff, but she's not a CEO in any traditional
[00:29:31.09 - 00:29:32.00] sense.
[00:29:32.01 - 00:29:33.13] She's really just a coach.
[00:29:33.15 - 00:29:38.22] I mean, she is so passionate about people finding their thing and developing.
[00:29:39.06 - 00:29:41.01] And that's the whole culture of Tuff.
[00:29:41.03 - 00:29:45.13] It's like, we're so oriented around developing together.
[00:29:46.15 - 00:29:48.18] And that's been, that was really what I was craving.
[00:29:48.19 - 00:29:50.07] I was craving to be challenged.
[00:29:50.09 - 00:29:53.16] I think I've always been a learning enthusiast, but I really wanted to be
[00:29:53.18 - 00:29:54.10] challenged.
[00:29:54.12 - 00:30:01.01] And even the trainers in Tuff who've been there for 20 years, we all meet once a
[00:30:01.03 - 00:30:04.19] month on a Friday afternoon from one to five.
[00:30:04.21 - 00:30:06.04] And we train together.
[00:30:06.06 - 00:30:09.22] Doesn't matter if you're like, you know, a super senior trainer, everyone trains
[00:30:10.00 - 00:30:11.07] together always.
[00:30:11.09 - 00:30:12.06] Yeah.
[00:30:13.00 - 00:30:15.22] And we, yeah, and we push each other.
[00:30:16.00 - 00:30:18.15] So sometimes we'll train in our allergies.
[00:30:18.21 - 00:30:22.10] So like, you know, me, I am quite a quiet person.
[00:30:22.12 - 00:30:28.10] So sometimes I'll be challenged to, okay, Lisa train being like really arrogant, or,
[00:30:28.12 - 00:30:32.16] know, try, try like leading a course where you're like super loud and taking up too
[00:30:32.18 - 00:30:34.21] much space and, and doing
[00:30:34.22 - 00:30:39.16] that it feels really uncomfortable and maybe it's too much but then I from that
[00:30:39.18 - 00:30:43.18] can discern something but I would I like that there was something about that
[00:30:43.19 - 00:30:46.10] element and I get feedback from my colleagues where they're like, to you it
[00:30:46.12 - 00:30:51.12] seemed too much to us it was great. Really? Wow, what was it that made it great?
[00:30:51.13 - 00:30:56.10] You know, so we do things like that together all the time when we meet in person twice
[00:30:56.12 - 00:31:00.00] a year as well where we do more intensive training together.
[00:31:02.01 - 00:31:06.16] Yeah, I think that's really changed my life and it's really become my home for
[00:31:06.18 - 00:31:07.19] development, Tuff.
[00:31:07.21 - 00:31:09.21] My lifelong home for development.
[00:31:10.00 - 00:31:17.16] You remind me of leadership styles and how we learn and develop our own leadership
[00:31:17.18 - 00:31:18.13] style.
[00:31:18.15 - 00:31:25.21] So my personal leadership style was sadly inspired by everyone, everything I was
[00:31:25.22 - 00:31:28.13] reading, being in a tech business.
[00:31:28.18 - 00:31:33.16] And for many, many years, probably still, the tech business and CEOs in the tech
[00:31:33.18 - 00:31:36.21] business are inspired by California style leadership.
[00:31:37.07 - 00:31:50.19] And Steve Jobs and the kind of high performer geek alpha male type leadership.
[00:31:51.19 - 00:31:57.06] Very dominant, not very empathic, entirely performance driven.
[00:31:57.15 - 00:32:03.03] And I thought that was kind of, you know, the role model for people.
[00:32:03.04 - 00:32:05.10] And that's what I should be adopting.
[00:32:05.12 - 00:32:06.07] But then
[00:32:06.09 - 00:32:11.13] When joining the Entrepreneurs' Organization I mentioned earlier, I was in
[00:32:11.15 - 00:32:16.16] retrospect fortunate to have served in other people's teams and boards.
[00:32:16.18 - 00:32:21.07] And so by looking at the leadership style for each of these four five people I've
[00:32:21.09 - 00:32:27.19] served under, I picked and cherry picked aspects of their leadership style that I
[00:32:27.21 - 00:32:31.18] thought resonated and sounded really like me.
[00:32:32.00 - 00:32:33.19] And unless someone had
[00:32:33.21 - 00:32:38.15] shown it in front of me and said, you know, look at this person and what you
[00:32:38.16 - 00:32:40.04] like from their leadership style.
[00:32:40.06 - 00:32:42.01] I would never have guessed.
[00:32:42.19 - 00:32:48.22] You know, it's like a little cord inside of me that starts resonating to a certain
[00:32:49.00 - 00:32:49.15] frequency.
[00:32:49.16 - 00:32:54.06] And unless I get exposed to that frequency or that experience, I will never know.
[00:32:54.15 - 00:33:00.10] And so, like for me, the best way to learn your own leadership style, anyone's own
[00:33:00.12 - 00:33:02.21] leadership style is through exposure.
[00:33:04.15 - 00:33:08.10] And it's rare as leaders that we're exposed to a lot of different leadership
[00:33:08.12 - 00:33:13.22] styles because you have to work a lot of different companies or have opportunities
[00:33:14.00 - 00:33:17.21] to switch managers, you know, every year, every few months or whatever.
[00:33:19.16 - 00:33:25.06] So, yeah, it's fascinating to think about leadership styles and also how leadership
[00:33:25.07 - 00:33:29.06] styles are really how we think and act because we're leaders,
[00:33:29.12 - 00:33:32.16] in our work environment, we're leaders in our family, we're leaders in our
[00:33:32.18 - 00:33:34.22] community, we're leaders of self.
[00:33:35.09 - 00:33:42.12] And so who I am as a leader and the type of person I am as a leader will reflect in
[00:33:42.13 - 00:33:45.00] all of these aspects of my life.
[00:33:45.01 - 00:33:46.09] Yeah, exactly.
[00:33:46.10 - 00:33:53.10] And we have people on our courses who say all the time, you know, I came on this
[00:33:53.12 - 00:33:56.09] training to improve my leadership, but actually it's transformed the
[00:33:56.10 - 00:33:58.22] conversations that I have with my teenage son.
[00:33:59.00 - 00:34:02.06] Well, like how I talk to my partner now is totally different.
[00:34:02.07 - 00:34:07.07] I realized how much I was, whenever she was struggling, I would just go to solutions
[00:34:07.09 - 00:34:09.07] and I've stopped doing that now.
[00:34:09.15 - 00:34:14.00] And the other thing I wanted to say is about being exposed to leadership styles.
[00:34:15.07 - 00:34:20.01] One thing I learned was that I was cherry picking the leadership styles that were
[00:34:20.03 - 00:34:25.19] most like me, that resonated with me, which I felt like, those are good ones
[00:34:25.21 - 00:34:27.16] because they're like me.
[00:34:28.03 - 00:34:32.15] And actually my biggest learning has come from seeing what I can learn from
[00:34:32.16 - 00:34:36.16] leadership styles that are not like me and even that might repel me initially.
[00:34:36.18 - 00:34:40.09] So this is why I like this allergy thing, which comes from a model called Core
[00:34:40.10 - 00:34:43.07] Quality Quadrant by Daniel Ofman.
[00:34:43.09 - 00:34:45.07] So we do that in our courses and we also
[00:34:45.09 - 00:34:46.10] do that in Tuff.
[00:34:46.12 - 00:34:54.12] So Karin for example, she has a core quality which is drive, which is not
[00:34:54.13 - 00:34:58.22] surprising really, she's a CEO, she's a founder and when it's too much she becomes
[00:34:59.00 - 00:35:00.19] like a bulldozer.
[00:35:00.21 - 00:35:04.15] So that's her pitfall, bulldozer and we will lovingly tell her if she's being a
[00:35:04.16 - 00:35:05.01] bulldozer.
[00:35:05.03 - 00:35:06.21] Now you're being a bulldozer Karin.
[00:35:06.22 - 00:35:11.01] Where she's like going so fast and we all feel like we're being kind of dragged
[00:35:11.03 - 00:35:15.03] behind and so she's learned over the years to develop
[00:35:15.04 - 00:35:20.09] the third box which is your challenge which is kind of like a complementary
[00:35:20.10 - 00:35:26.10] quality that you don't have access to in a natural way but you might admire in others
[00:35:26.12 - 00:35:30.09] so for her it's been patience so she's learned
[00:35:31.06 - 00:35:35.13] that sometimes she has like this great idea and the energy isn't there yet in the
[00:35:35.15 - 00:35:40.10] organization and rather than pushing it she waits and she has a bit of patience
[00:35:40.12 - 00:35:46.12] and then quite often down the line people might say yeah that is a good idea and had
[00:35:46.13 - 00:35:51.16] Nathan Donaldson on your podcast saying something similar that he said the time
[00:35:51.18 - 00:35:55.03] horizon of people thinking his idea that he suggested was a good one was like three
[00:35:55.04 - 00:35:57.15] years or something like that.
[00:35:58.03 - 00:36:03.06] And then of course her allergy is if it's like all talk and no action.
[00:36:03.07 - 00:36:06.10] So if it starts to become too much patience, then it becomes that.
[00:36:07.00 - 00:36:10.10] So it's good to know like for each of us, like what is our core quality quadrant.
[00:36:10.12 - 00:36:12.22] It's a bit like what you said with the Strengthsfinders.
[00:36:13.00 - 00:36:17.22] If you talk about it with your colleagues, then you can sort of lovingly share, you know,
[00:36:18.00 - 00:36:20.09] this is my pitfall, this is what I want to develop.
[00:36:20.10 - 00:36:24.22] And I can tell you when you're in your pitfall or I can give you feedback when I
[00:36:25.00 - 00:36:27.00] see that you're developing your challenge.
[00:36:27.01 - 00:36:29.03] Like that was a really great example of that.
[00:36:29.04 - 00:36:32.15] And also be aware of when I might be triggering your allergy.
[00:36:33.09 - 00:36:37.13] But I've started looking for the people who are in my allergy box and then seeing
[00:36:37.15 - 00:36:42.19] what's the quality that corresponds to that allergy that I might like to take a
[00:36:42.21 - 00:36:44.15] little bit of for myself.
[00:36:45.06 - 00:36:49.22] So I have an allergy to leaders who are like super arrogant and like take up a lot
[00:36:50.00 - 00:36:51.03] of space.
[00:36:51.12 - 00:36:56.01] But also there's a gift there for me, which is like learning to be more
[00:36:56.03 - 00:36:59.18] expressed, more authentic.
[00:37:00.00 - 00:37:04.19] More powerful because I have a quadrant where my pitfall is being a bit like a
[00:37:04.21 - 00:37:05.19] clam.
[00:37:06.06 - 00:37:10.10] Where this is feedback that I got from my colleagues that I can be too quiet and
[00:37:10.12 - 00:37:15.01] people don't know what I'm thinking or feeling and that actually makes people
[00:37:15.03 - 00:37:18.21] feel a little bit unsafe or that they don't know if they want to open up.
[00:37:19.00 - 00:37:23.03] So my challenge at the moment that I'm working on is what I'm calling hippo
[00:37:23.04 - 00:37:29.16] ballerina which for me represents like being much more expressed, more playful,
[00:37:29.18 - 00:37:36.03] more authentic, daring to share what I'm feeling, unfinished thoughts that don't need
[00:37:36.04 - 00:37:42.12] to be really articulate and beautiful and profound so that people can be more in
[00:37:42.13 - 00:37:44.00] contact with me.
[00:37:45.10 - 00:37:49.10] But if it's too much of that then of course I start to worry that I become too
[00:37:49.12 - 00:37:50.09] much.
[00:37:50.12 - 00:37:57.06] So that space between challenge and allergy is very uncomfortable but there's
[00:37:57.07 - 00:37:59.12] like very rich learning there.
[00:38:01.04 - 00:38:06.09] I'm also uncomfortable in front of arrogant and larger than life leaders.
[00:38:08.12 - 00:38:18.06] And the phrase I use whenever I'm uncomfortable is love not fear.
[00:38:19.19 - 00:38:23.10] Because everything in life we either approach with love or with fear.
[00:38:23.12 - 00:38:29.04] Every single feeling if you drill down into it is caused at the root of it by
[00:38:29.06 - 00:38:30.03] fear.
[00:38:30.16 - 00:38:34.07] Fear of losing something, fear of disappointing someone, fear of not being
[00:38:34.09 - 00:38:36.15] accepted, fear of losing control.
[00:38:36.16 - 00:38:39.07] Every single feeling has fear at the bottom of it.
[00:38:39.09 - 00:38:46.09] So my lack of comfort, if someone who's really confrontational, is fear.
[00:38:46.10 - 00:38:52.12] So I'm trying to turn it around and saying, how can I approach this with love?
[00:38:52.18 - 00:39:00.15] And love starts with, for example, nonviolent communication principles.
[00:39:01.03 - 00:39:07.09] So sharing feelings, sharing a common understanding, starting with facts and
[00:39:07.10 - 00:39:10.06] stripping away the story from the facts.
[00:39:10.19 - 00:39:20.12] And approaching people as people and not as titles or expectations.
[00:39:21.06 - 00:39:22.07] Or judgments.
[00:39:22.09 - 00:39:24.19] Or judgements, yes, preconceptions.
[00:39:24.21 - 00:39:25.15] For sure.
[00:39:26.06 - 00:39:27.01] Yeah, I love that.
[00:39:27.03 - 00:39:33.21] Something I touched on in our pre-show, Lisa, is I'm really inspired by the
[00:39:34.10 - 00:39:39.10] purpose, the very meaningful purpose of the work that you do, which is helping
[00:39:39.12 - 00:39:40.04] transform leaders.
[00:39:40.06 - 00:39:41.22] That's in my own words.
[00:39:43.06 - 00:39:46.09] What is stopping you from doing the best work of your life?
[00:39:46.10 - 00:39:50.13] What is stopping you from really helping people transform?
[00:39:51.18 - 00:39:57.16] If you had the magic wand, what would you change so you can affect the lives of
[00:39:57.18 - 00:39:58.22] thousands?
[00:40:02.06 - 00:40:04.12] Such a juicy question.
[00:40:06.16 - 00:40:12.15] What is coming up for me now that's something that's very current for me as
[00:40:12.16 - 00:40:17.22] I'm going into the summer season which in my work life is often in a season where
[00:40:18.00 - 00:40:24.22] things like wind down I take time off to go offline and like try and tune into my
[00:40:25.00 - 00:40:28.12] creativity again like recrystallize my purpose
[00:40:29.21 - 00:40:31.04] So I'm right at the beginning of that.
[00:40:31.06 - 00:40:40.10] So right now what's stopping me is I think a lack of clarity that I feel somewhat
[00:40:40.12 - 00:40:48.03] overwhelmed sometimes because I have a lot of knowledge and examples and stories by
[00:40:48.04 - 00:40:51.10] virtue of my podcast and writing.
[00:40:53.09 - 00:40:57.19] And sometimes what stops me is like, how do I contribute with this?
[00:40:57.21 - 00:41:02.10] Like, what's the best way to channel my energy to make the most meaningful
[00:41:02.12 - 00:41:03.04] contribution?
[00:41:03.06 - 00:41:05.15] Because there are a lot of different things I could do.
[00:41:05.16 - 00:41:10.13] And one of my pitfalls is to get drawn into too many projects because I'm so
[00:41:10.15 - 00:41:12.13] interested in lots of things.
[00:41:13.09 - 00:41:18.10] But I've been very inspired by Miki Kashtan, who's a nonviolent communication
[00:41:18.12 - 00:41:22.04] practitioner actually, and also has this organization called Nonviolent Global
[00:41:22.06 - 00:41:25.19] Liberation, which is a super interesting radical organization.
[00:41:26.04 - 00:41:34.09] And she has been a teacher for me in the work around the capacity lens, which is
[00:41:34.10 - 00:41:35.15] all about
[00:41:36.03 - 00:41:42.06] that we as human beings have a finite amount of capacity in terms of our energy,
[00:41:42.07 - 00:41:44.07] our resources to do things.
[00:41:44.10 - 00:41:52.13] And we're in a paradigm of kind of capitalism and perpetual growth and productivity and
[00:41:52.15 - 00:41:56.04] stuff and it's really hard to unlearn that.
[00:41:56.09 - 00:42:00.16] So every time I take time off, I find it so hard to have an empty calendar.
[00:42:00.18 - 00:42:02.16] I find that very confronting.
[00:42:02.22 - 00:42:05.15] This need to, I have to be productive today.
[00:42:07.01 - 00:42:13.18] But what happens if we don't pay attention to our capacity limits and what's happened
[00:42:13.19 - 00:42:17.07] for me and what's happened actually for a lot of people who work in self-managing
[00:42:17.09 - 00:42:21.04] organizations or just very purpose-driven organizations, a shadow side of that is
[00:42:21.06 - 00:42:24.13] that people can end up burning out, right?
[00:42:24.15 - 00:42:27.19] Because if you're so passionate and committed to it, this happens in Buurtzorg
[00:42:27.21 - 00:42:29.16] with the nurses, for example.
[00:42:31.09 - 00:42:32.19] So that's kind of a learning edge, is like
[00:42:32.21 - 00:42:39.09] how can we also be responsible for our own wellbeing?
[00:42:39.10 - 00:42:42.10] It's kind of a funny thing, like to be responsible in a self-managing team for
[00:42:42.12 - 00:42:47.01] the organisation, but also that means being responsible for my wellbeing,
[00:42:47.03 - 00:42:51.15] because if I burn out, that has an impact on the organisation.
[00:42:52.00 - 00:42:56.07] And sometimes me feeling like, I shouldn't take this time off because that's not me
[00:42:56.09 - 00:42:57.22] being a good colleague.
[00:42:58.00 - 00:43:02.04] It's like seeing that actually that's a responsible thing for me to do so that I
[00:43:02.06 - 00:43:06.13] can come back nourished and refreshed and be a good colleague.
[00:43:06.15 - 00:43:09.04] I'm no good to anyone if I burn out, you know.
[00:43:09.21 - 00:43:17.00] So I think this capacity, what is in my capacity right now, based on my kind of
[00:43:17.01 - 00:43:21.13] purpose and my values, what can I contribute with, with the capacity I have
[00:43:21.15 - 00:43:23.12] available to me right now?
[00:43:23.19 - 00:43:29.19] Without judgment, I might feel sad about, well, there are 500 things I want to do
[00:43:29.21 - 00:43:31.10] and I only have capacity for one.
[00:43:31.12 - 00:43:36.01] So then I have to kind of grieve for those 499 that I can't do.
[00:43:36.03 - 00:43:39.06] But then that helps me channel my energy into that one.
[00:43:40.12 - 00:43:43.04] So I think, yeah, that's my biggest barrier right now.
[00:43:43.06 - 00:43:50.01] And hopefully this time that I'm taking over the summer will help me re-tune into
[00:43:50.03 - 00:43:53.15] what's important and what I can contribute.
[00:43:55.21 - 00:43:58.12] I see it from the lens of intentionality.
[00:43:59.06 - 00:44:07.01] So I'm incredibly intentional about my work and where I put my time.
[00:44:08.22 - 00:44:14.07] But I'm also, in the last five or so years, very intentional about my personal
[00:44:14.09 - 00:44:15.10] well-being.
[00:44:15.12 - 00:44:21.15] So I'm very intentional about exercise, about sleep, about the little habits that
[00:44:21.16 - 00:44:24.15] bring me balance from, you know,
[00:44:24.22 - 00:44:38.09] meditation to having time for my wife to be able to have a quiet understanding
[00:44:39.04 - 00:44:42.12] conversation where we have time to connect.
[00:44:44.22 - 00:44:52.16] I think intentionality is something that I don't see in a lot of people.
[00:44:54.03 - 00:45:01.04] And I see that as the source of confusion and of as...
[00:45:01.06 - 00:45:04.09] I think it's a quote in Alice in Wonderland, if you don't know where you're
[00:45:04.10 - 00:45:06.15] going, every road will take you there.
[00:45:07.22 - 00:45:10.15] Which is, we end up not...
[00:45:11.09 - 00:45:19.21] We end up having our lives run by default and following the course that the events
[00:45:20.09 - 00:45:22.21] that appear to us...
[00:45:25.03 - 00:45:28.01] take us through, rather than designing our own environment.
[00:45:28.03 - 00:45:34.21] You talked earlier about characteristics and allergies and challenges and all of
[00:45:34.22 - 00:45:35.16] that.
[00:45:35.18 - 00:45:42.07] I mean, if we could find the job or the partner or the home or the place or the
[00:45:42.09 - 00:45:48.22] environment where all our characteristics are strengths, that would be the place
[00:45:49.00 - 00:45:50.19] that would give us the most energy.
[00:45:52.13 - 00:45:54.06] We can do that.
[00:45:55.03 - 00:45:58.22] A lot of us, most of us perhaps, we can do that to an extent.
[00:45:59.15 - 00:46:07.03] And the intentionality of saying, how can I find a partner, a job, house, whatever
[00:46:07.04 - 00:46:13.16] it is, safe space where I can grow and my characteristics are all strengths?
[00:46:13.18 - 00:46:17.04] And how would that lead to a much happier life?
[00:46:18.09 - 00:46:25.03] I think, you know, this is, this would really positively impact lives for people.
[00:46:25.09 - 00:46:26.03] Yeah.
[00:46:26.04 - 00:46:33.16] And I would add also where my pitfalls and insecurities and shortcomings are also
[00:46:33.18 - 00:46:34.16] okay.
[00:46:35.03 - 00:46:39.09] Because I always hesitate a bit when organizations are like, you know,
[00:46:39.10 - 00:46:41.15] happiness, happiness, happiness, which is great.
[00:46:41.16 - 00:46:48.13] But I think psychological safety is also spaces where people can, because our
[00:46:48.15 - 00:46:50.04] pitfalls will never go away.
[00:46:50.06 - 00:46:54.07] So even if, you know, when you do that exercise and you identify your pitfalls,
[00:46:54.12 - 00:46:56.18] It's not about eliminating that.
[00:46:56.19 - 00:46:58.19] Like I will always have those pitfalls.
[00:46:58.21 - 00:47:04.03] But if I can become conscious and intentional, as you say, then I can start
[00:47:04.04 - 00:47:08.10] to own my pitfalls instead of my pitfalls owning me.
[00:47:08.19 - 00:47:11.18] And I can start to take responsibility for them.
[00:47:12.03 - 00:47:16.12] So it gets to a place where like in Tuff, for example, we can share with each other.
[00:47:16.13 - 00:47:22.12] We talk all the time like, this is me falling into my pitfall of taking responsibility
[00:47:22.13 - 00:47:24.13] and I want to stop doing that.
[00:47:24.15 - 00:47:26.22] I want to recommit to da da da.
[00:47:27.00 - 00:47:28.10] So we can call each other out.
[00:47:28.12 - 00:47:32.03] We can talk about it together and no one ever...
[00:47:33.04 - 00:47:35.22] punishes someone for being in their pitfall.
[00:47:36.00 - 00:47:40.22] It's like we might lovingly make someone aware of it, give them feedback or
[00:47:41.00 - 00:47:42.09] encourage them.
[00:47:43.03 - 00:47:47.19] But it's like in one of our value statements we say like, we see the five-year
[00:47:47.21 - 00:47:54.07] -old you and we love them and we also lovingly support you to be bigger than
[00:47:54.09 - 00:47:55.04] that.
[00:47:55.19 - 00:47:57.13] So it's kind of a paradox.
[00:47:57.15 - 00:48:00.19] It's like, those are the most inspiring places for me.
[00:48:00.21 - 00:48:06.01] And I try and practice that in my personal relationship with my partner too, that we
[00:48:06.03 - 00:48:10.04] try and have these spaces where we can talk about our pitfalls without trying to
[00:48:10.06 - 00:48:10.22] change the other one.
[00:48:11.00 - 00:48:13.15] I think that's very much a paradigm of romantic relationships, right?
[00:48:13.16 - 00:48:17.07] Like you try and stop being the things that annoy me.
[00:48:17.09 - 00:48:19.15] It's like, no, like you are those things.
[00:48:20.01 - 00:48:23.13] You know, the core quality quadrant, we often pick partners that are in our
[00:48:23.15 - 00:48:24.07] allergy.
[00:48:24.09 - 00:48:28.12] And so my partner is able to be very honest and direct and always can ask for
[00:48:28.13 - 00:48:29.18] what he needs.
[00:48:29.21 - 00:48:33.09] And I was attracted to that because I don't have that naturally.
[00:48:34.03 - 00:48:35.04] And it's also my allergy.
[00:48:35.06 - 00:48:37.06] Sometimes it really annoys me.
[00:48:37.07 - 00:48:42.10] But it's part of the package of who he is and I can tell him and give him feedback
[00:48:42.12 - 00:48:43.16] if it doesn't work for me.
[00:48:43.18 - 00:48:48.22] But I'd never would try and, you know, in a violent way, try and force him to change
[00:48:49.00 - 00:48:49.19] that.
[00:48:51.09 - 00:48:52.06] Yeah.
[00:48:52.12 - 00:48:53.12] Lisa, we are...
[00:48:57.09 - 00:49:00.21] It's been a fantastic conversation.
[00:49:00.22 - 00:49:06.07] I've almost got lost in it, but I'm also aware of the time and I do want to keep
[00:49:06.09 - 00:49:09.06] these podcasts short and juicy.
[00:49:09.18 - 00:49:13.12] Hopefully we can reschedule so we can hear much more about your story.
[00:49:13.13 - 00:49:20.15] But for now, where can people find out more about you and is there anything like
[00:49:20.16 - 00:49:26.01] a book or a movie or anything that you'd like to leave us with?
[00:49:27.09 - 00:49:31.12] Yes, so people can find me on LinkedIn.
[00:49:31.13 - 00:49:34.03] I guess that's a good place to find me.
[00:49:37.12 - 00:49:42.13] As I said, I've written a book and the website for that is mooseheadsonthetable.com.
[00:49:42.15 - 00:49:47.13] So if anyone's interested to read that, there are stories and cases of
[00:49:47.15 - 00:49:52.16] organizations and then some principles about self-managing organizations.
[00:49:53.15 - 00:49:58.15] And my podcast, leadermorphosis.co is the website for that, where I have
[00:49:58.16 - 00:50:04.01] conversations similar to this, talking to people about their journeys and the
[00:50:04.03 - 00:50:06.03] cultures they've created.
[00:50:08.03 - 00:50:10.07] Yeah, that's probably what I would recommend.
[00:50:10.18 - 00:50:14.15] Lisa, I'm really grateful we got to meet.
[00:50:14.16 - 00:50:19.03] I've been following your podcast for a while, as I mentioned, and your work.
[00:50:19.21 - 00:50:23.21] And I look forward to learning more about Tuff actually, because a lot of the
[00:50:23.22 - 00:50:29.13] principles resonate deeply with leadership development and how I like to help other
[00:50:29.15 - 00:50:33.06] leaders, myself included, transform.
[00:50:34.21 - 00:50:37.16] To those that made it to the end of
[00:50:37.18 - 00:50:38.04] episode.
[00:50:38.06 - 00:50:41.07] Thank you for giving us your undivided attention.
[00:50:42.00 - 00:50:45.13] If you like the show, you can support us by telling your friends about the show.
[00:50:45.15 - 00:50:50.06] You can leave a comment in your favorite podcast app, or you can email me directly
[00:50:50.07 - 00:50:54.22] at andreas at rethinkculture .co with your thoughts.
[00:50:55.21 - 00:50:59.13] If you like to watch and not just listen to the podcast, you can tune into our
[00:50:59.15 - 00:51:07.07] YouTube channel, which is youtube .com slash at sign rethink culture and keep on
[00:51:07.09 - 00:51:12.07] creating a happier, healthier workplace for you and for those around
[00:51:16.15 - 00:51:17.08] All