WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.166 --> 00:00:02.291 Welcome to the Color Timer podcast. 2 00:00:02.625 --> 00:00:04.333 I am your host, Vincent Taylor. 3 00:00:04.708 --> 00:00:06.916 This is the podcast where we speak to professionals 4 00:00:07.125 --> 00:00:08.083 who work with color. 5 00:00:09.291 --> 00:00:11.583 Today, I am speaking to Mr. Steve Shaw. 6 00:00:12.125 --> 00:00:15.208 He is CEO of a company called Light Illusion, 7 00:00:15.958 --> 00:00:17.458 although you'll see he gets a 8 00:00:17.541 --> 00:00:19.291 bit shy when I call him CEO. 9 00:00:20.458 --> 00:00:24.791 He's a fascinating fellow and he deals, 10 00:00:25.708 --> 00:00:27.458 and how do I water this down 11 00:00:27.541 --> 00:00:29.625 into a couple of little bite-sized sentances? 12 00:00:29.875 --> 00:00:32.708 But basically, very, very basically, 13 00:00:33.250 --> 00:00:36.708 they deal with color management, color calibration, 14 00:00:37.958 --> 00:00:39.250 that whole world of making sure 15 00:00:39.333 --> 00:00:40.625 that you trust what you're looking at. 16 00:00:40.875 --> 00:00:43.125 But it's a great conversation, so let's go. 17 00:00:45.250 --> 00:00:46.916 Take your seats because the 18 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:49.291 hourglass is about to turn. 19 00:00:49.958 --> 00:00:53.541 We are entering the world of the micro podcast. 20 00:00:54.500 --> 00:00:57.458 Explore the craft, creativity, and 21 00:00:57.541 --> 00:00:59.000 science of professionals 22 00:00:59.083 --> 00:01:01.916 who use color to tell stories. 23 00:01:02.708 --> 00:01:06.625 Welcome to The Color Timer with Vincent Taylor. 24 00:01:08.166 --> 00:01:10.791 [MUSIC] 25 00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.958 Steve, hi, thank you for joining me. 26 00:01:18.916 --> 00:01:19.625 Pleasure, mate, pleasure. 27 00:01:20.708 --> 00:01:21.541 Yeah, good to see you. 28 00:01:21.875 --> 00:01:25.375 I stumbled onto your work because 29 00:01:25.458 --> 00:01:27.833 I keep seeing posts on LinkedIn and 30 00:01:28.333 --> 00:01:29.750 instantly intrigued by 31 00:01:29.833 --> 00:01:31.375 what you're working on and so 32 00:01:31.458 --> 00:01:33.416 then became a little bit quietly obsessed. 33 00:01:36.500 --> 00:01:37.583 You're classified as a 34 00:01:37.666 --> 00:01:39.583 specialist in critical color management. 35 00:01:39.875 --> 00:01:41.708 Well, when I started to do some research, you come 36 00:01:41.791 --> 00:01:42.875 from a heck of a background, 37 00:01:42.958 --> 00:01:43.958 like you've worn a lot of hats. 38 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:46.750 And I'd love to go through some stepping stones as 39 00:01:46.833 --> 00:01:49.500 to how you got to where you are 40 00:01:49.583 --> 00:01:49.833 now. 41 00:01:50.416 --> 00:01:53.333 Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't classify myself as being 42 00:01:53.416 --> 00:01:55.208 the specialist in color stuff. 43 00:01:55.291 --> 00:01:57.666 I've ended up doing color and I 44 00:01:57.750 --> 00:02:01.041 happen to have guys that work with us 45 00:02:01.291 --> 00:02:04.291 that are very much specialists in color. 46 00:02:04.958 --> 00:02:06.708 Cuz that's kind of where we've ended up. 47 00:02:07.083 --> 00:02:08.375 But that was certainly not 48 00:02:08.458 --> 00:02:10.500 where things started out. 49 00:02:11.458 --> 00:02:13.041 I've been in the film and TV 50 00:02:13.125 --> 00:02:16.625 industry for more years than I care t-- 51 00:02:16.708 --> 00:02:18.083 yes, there you go, yeah, for the timer. 52 00:02:18.791 --> 00:02:20.708 Otherwise, I just waffled on forever. 53 00:02:21.208 --> 00:02:27.333 Yeah, no, I'm 59, give or take now. 54 00:02:28.083 --> 00:02:30.541 And I started in this industry when I was 16. 55 00:02:31.583 --> 00:02:32.000 Wait, wait, wait. 56 00:02:32.666 --> 00:02:34.666 You're 59 years old, you're looking good, mate. 57 00:02:34.875 --> 00:02:35.583 You're looking good. 58 00:02:36.208 --> 00:02:37.041 Yeah, that's lack of stress. 59 00:02:37.625 --> 00:02:37.791 Yeah. 60 00:02:39.208 --> 00:02:44.041 I just happened to grow up in a town where at that 61 00:02:44.125 --> 00:02:46.375 time, a young and upcoming company 62 00:02:46.458 --> 00:02:50.166 was starting out doing the very early days of 63 00:02:50.250 --> 00:02:53.500 digital TV, which was Quantel. 64 00:02:54.291 --> 00:02:58.666 And I ended up basically getting a job at the age 65 00:02:58.750 --> 00:03:01.833 of 16 with them rather than going to 66 00:03:01.916 --> 00:03:04.416 college and university, which was the plan. 67 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:06.500 I mean, at that time, companies 68 00:03:06.583 --> 00:03:07.708 actually were quite successful. 69 00:03:07.958 --> 00:03:10.666 Keen to get hold of people younger so they could 70 00:03:10.750 --> 00:03:13.291 kind of train them in this kind of new 71 00:03:13.541 --> 00:03:16.416 concept of digital imaging that really wasn't being 72 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:18.833 taught because it didn't exist in college 73 00:03:18.916 --> 00:03:19.875 universities and that. 74 00:03:20.625 --> 00:03:24.458 And basically went in as an electronics engineer 75 00:03:24.541 --> 00:03:28.750 and ended up doing that kind of side of things 76 00:03:28.833 --> 00:03:30.666 for some considerable time. 77 00:03:31.125 --> 00:03:34.208 I ended up in Los Angeles, well, 78 00:03:34.291 --> 00:03:36.333 actually New York first, and then L.A. 79 00:03:36.750 --> 00:03:39.958 in the very early days of kind of things that were 80 00:03:40.041 --> 00:03:41.750 called Harry and Encore and what have 81 00:03:41.833 --> 00:03:44.958 you, the Paint Box and that as an engineer doing 82 00:03:45.041 --> 00:03:48.916 installations, doing service work, whatever. 83 00:03:49.708 --> 00:03:52.916 So got into it very much from the hands on 84 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:54.250 electronic side of things. 85 00:03:55.750 --> 00:03:57.666 And from there, it just kind of 86 00:03:57.750 --> 00:03:59.375 that was it for quite some years. 87 00:03:59.666 --> 00:04:03.291 And then I decided when we started getting into the 88 00:04:03.375 --> 00:04:07.375 kind of greater level of image manipulation, 89 00:04:07.625 --> 00:04:10.041 which was in my view was film. 90 00:04:10.250 --> 00:04:12.041 So we got into digital film through 91 00:04:12.125 --> 00:04:15.166 the development of Domino with Quantel. 92 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:20.041 And that side of it was at that time pretty 93 00:04:20.125 --> 00:04:22.291 interesting because it was a whole new game, 94 00:04:22.708 --> 00:04:25.458 scanning film, digitizing it, doing the visual 95 00:04:25.541 --> 00:04:27.250 effects, putting your class of film 96 00:04:27.666 --> 00:04:30.250 and cutting it back into the original negative. 97 00:04:31.333 --> 00:04:33.166 And I ended up setting up a 98 00:04:33.250 --> 00:04:36.208 facility or a few facilities in Soho. 99 00:04:36.291 --> 00:04:38.000 Many White Coats was the first one 100 00:04:38.083 --> 00:04:40.583 doing pretty much that kind of work. 101 00:04:41.166 --> 00:04:42.250 - Such a great name for a company. 102 00:04:43.458 --> 00:04:46.166 - Yeah, we did a lot of work on films like 103 00:04:46.250 --> 00:04:47.708 Elizabeth, Lost in Space, 104 00:04:48.083 --> 00:04:50.416 Deep Blue Sea, things like that. 105 00:04:51.083 --> 00:04:53.750 And it was those early days, we were physically 106 00:04:53.833 --> 00:04:56.500 handling camera, original negative, scanning it, 107 00:04:57.666 --> 00:04:58.541 doing the digital effects 108 00:04:58.625 --> 00:05:00.208 work, putting it back to film. 109 00:05:00.291 --> 00:05:02.000 And it was being spliced in and 110 00:05:02.083 --> 00:05:04.416 then the whole chain was still film. 111 00:05:06.500 --> 00:05:11.250 I left there, to be fair, I just got fed up working 112 00:05:11.333 --> 00:05:14.125 in dark rooms 24 seven for two years. 113 00:05:15.458 --> 00:05:20.041 And I actually joined, yeah, I joined Cinetel as 114 00:05:20.125 --> 00:05:22.875 technical director on the telecine side. 115 00:05:23.708 --> 00:05:26.291 But it was at the end of that era. 116 00:05:26.500 --> 00:05:27.166 And if I'm truthful, 117 00:05:27.625 --> 00:05:32.625 I didn't look into what was happening with the 118 00:05:32.708 --> 00:05:35.958 company and the whole film industry. 119 00:05:36.041 --> 00:05:37.750 I should have known because obviously I was already 120 00:05:37.833 --> 00:05:39.666 working with digital cameras at that time. 121 00:05:40.333 --> 00:05:44.375 And I ended up in Rome at Trinity to Film Studios 122 00:05:44.458 --> 00:05:48.208 at the beginning of what is now just true digital 123 00:05:48.291 --> 00:05:51.208 cinematography and digital post-production in the 124 00:05:51.291 --> 00:05:52.041 film side, in the 125 00:05:52.125 --> 00:05:53.708 resolutions that we now talk about 126 00:05:53.791 --> 00:05:58.875 as 3k, 4k, what have you nowadays. And I was out 127 00:05:58.958 --> 00:06:02.291 there on and off for a good 18 months and started 128 00:06:02.375 --> 00:06:06.333 travelling again to act as a consultant in the same 129 00:06:06.416 --> 00:06:07.916 business but all around the world. 130 00:06:08.625 --> 00:06:11.083 And I ended up again starting another post house 131 00:06:11.166 --> 00:06:15.041 called Axis Post in Shepparton Studios with another 132 00:06:15.125 --> 00:06:19.541 partner company which was Axis Films and carried on 133 00:06:19.625 --> 00:06:22.291 doing that side of it. But at the same time 134 00:06:22.375 --> 00:06:25.625 doing this consultancy work and bouncing around all 135 00:06:25.708 --> 00:06:27.541 over them and I've worked on and off in 136 00:06:28.125 --> 00:06:33.083 pretty much everywhere Africa, Japan, China, Hong 137 00:06:33.166 --> 00:06:35.958 Kong, you name it I've probably been there. 138 00:06:36.708 --> 00:06:39.541 That's amazing. And while I was doing that we 139 00:06:39.625 --> 00:06:43.500 basically started, well I started developing a 140 00:06:44.375 --> 00:06:47.875 very simple, what was effectively a spreadsheet 141 00:06:47.958 --> 00:06:51.416 with VBS scripting and that to do color 142 00:06:51.500 --> 00:06:54.666 manipulation. And we were using it just back in the 143 00:06:54.750 --> 00:06:58.000 days of the Viper camera and we were working 144 00:06:58.083 --> 00:07:01.583 on a film, one of the Highlander films which was 145 00:07:01.666 --> 00:07:04.791 shot with Viper, another film that was called 146 00:07:04.875 --> 00:07:08.000 Silence Becomes You which was the very first film 147 00:07:08.083 --> 00:07:13.541 ever shot entirely digital that wasn't video. 148 00:07:13.875 --> 00:07:16.500 It was all captured with what were called S2 disc 149 00:07:16.583 --> 00:07:20.666 recorders in pure digital imagery non-video. 150 00:07:21.750 --> 00:07:23.958 And I did a lot of work on the color science of 151 00:07:24.041 --> 00:07:27.041 that using this kind of VBS script, 152 00:07:27.125 --> 00:07:29.208 Excel spreadsheet stuff that I'd been playing with 153 00:07:29.291 --> 00:07:33.416 for my own application. And people started 154 00:07:33.500 --> 00:07:36.291 to hear about it and then started to ask if they 155 00:07:36.375 --> 00:07:39.000 could get their hands onto it. So I ended up 156 00:07:39.083 --> 00:07:41.833 selling it for not a lot but just as something to 157 00:07:41.916 --> 00:07:45.875 do. And effectively that's grown into what we do 158 00:07:45.958 --> 00:07:50.833 today as Light Illusion. So now you are the CEO of 159 00:07:50.916 --> 00:07:54.166 Light Illusion and I had... Wow, come on. 160 00:07:54.375 --> 00:07:58.166 I love titles, actually I don't. And I had a look 161 00:07:58.250 --> 00:08:01.166 at the website and the home page is filled with 162 00:08:01.250 --> 00:08:04.375 graphs and numbers and it's like it looks awesome. 163 00:08:05.208 --> 00:08:07.916 And it's such a great kind of overview 164 00:08:08.125 --> 00:08:12.250 of what you guys do in just one picture, with Light 165 00:08:12.333 --> 00:08:14.708 Illusion and what you guys are doing at a 166 00:08:14.916 --> 00:08:18.875 very base level. Who is it for? I mean, it's not 167 00:08:18.958 --> 00:08:21.250 for the people necessary that we intended it. 168 00:08:21.750 --> 00:08:24.625 I mean, originally it was always... We were in the 169 00:08:24.708 --> 00:08:26.541 professional world. I mean, everybody that works 170 00:08:27.083 --> 00:08:30.500 with us. And I mean, Light Illusion is just a front 171 00:08:30.583 --> 00:08:33.833 company. There are no real employees other 172 00:08:33.916 --> 00:08:36.416 than myself and my wife who is the company 173 00:08:36.500 --> 00:08:39.666 secretary, just for legal purposes, the two of us. 174 00:08:40.583 --> 00:08:42.416 And the people we work with are effectively 175 00:08:42.500 --> 00:08:45.833 freelance associates, consultants, whatever 176 00:08:45.916 --> 00:08:48.125 you want to call them. But we've been working 177 00:08:48.208 --> 00:08:52.666 together for many years on different aspects 178 00:08:52.833 --> 00:08:55.000 of the product. And it goes back to people that 179 00:08:55.083 --> 00:08:57.541 you may recognize. I mean, Walter Valpatto, 180 00:08:58.041 --> 00:09:01.208 who's a well-known colorist in LA. Well, when I was 181 00:09:01.291 --> 00:09:03.000 working in Cinicito in Rome, 182 00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:07.250 he was actually the engineer for Quantel at the 183 00:09:07.333 --> 00:09:10.000 time. He was their support engineer. And because 184 00:09:10.083 --> 00:09:12.833 I was at Cinicito with a guy called David Bush, who 185 00:09:12.916 --> 00:09:15.583 was well-known for using Quantel kit over the 186 00:09:15.666 --> 00:09:20.708 years, Quantel sent us the early days of the IQ 187 00:09:20.791 --> 00:09:24.583 system when they didn't understand what they 188 00:09:24.666 --> 00:09:27.125 were going to do with it. So Walter would come in 189 00:09:27.208 --> 00:09:30.541 and babysit this hardware that just turned up, 190 00:09:30.625 --> 00:09:33.250 that we were playing with. And we ended up 191 00:09:33.333 --> 00:09:36.333 consulting with Quantel to develop the color 192 00:09:36.416 --> 00:09:39.416 side of IQ and turn it into the system it became. 193 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:42.125 So I ended up doing a lot of freelance consultancy 194 00:09:42.458 --> 00:09:47.458 work back with Quantel at that time. And Walter was 195 00:09:47.541 --> 00:09:49.875 very much involved with us because he was 196 00:09:49.958 --> 00:09:52.208 there in Rome. So he would come into Cinicito 197 00:09:52.291 --> 00:09:53.416 because he hadn't anything else to do. 198 00:09:55.000 --> 00:10:00.250 And one of the very early IQ installations for 199 00:10:00.333 --> 00:10:05.125 color work was at Fotokem in LA. And I went out 200 00:10:05.208 --> 00:10:08.333 there because I kind of knew it inside out because 201 00:10:08.416 --> 00:10:10.083 of the work I'd been doing in the development of 202 00:10:10.166 --> 00:10:14.208 it as kind of a trainee colorist as in to train 203 00:10:14.291 --> 00:10:16.958 them up. And we did a film that was called 204 00:10:18.291 --> 00:10:21.166 America Heart and Soul, which is kind of a 205 00:10:21.250 --> 00:10:24.083 documentary on different aspects of American 206 00:10:24.208 --> 00:10:26.750 life. And there was lots of different footage shot 207 00:10:26.833 --> 00:10:29.625 in different ways. And we edited it together and 208 00:10:29.708 --> 00:10:31.625 graded it all through the IQ. And I was the 209 00:10:31.625 --> 00:10:32.541 graded it all through the IQ. And I was the 210 00:10:32.708 --> 00:10:34.916 colorist on it because it was the first real 211 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:38.666 kind of project that Fotokem put through. But I 212 00:10:38.750 --> 00:10:41.125 couldn't finish the project off. So I arranged 213 00:10:41.208 --> 00:10:45.541 for Walter to come over as a standing colorist to 214 00:10:45.625 --> 00:10:48.500 take over while I couldn't be there. And basically 215 00:10:48.583 --> 00:10:52.208 that's how he got his start as a colorist in LA. 216 00:10:53.166 --> 00:10:56.666 And Fotokem took him on full time at the end of 217 00:10:56.750 --> 00:11:01.291 the project. And obviously he's become this very, 218 00:11:01.375 --> 00:11:04.666 very, very successful colorist on the back of that. 219 00:11:04.750 --> 00:11:07.583 And he's done brilliantly well. But he was actively 220 00:11:07.666 --> 00:11:09.833 involved in the development of the early 221 00:11:09.916 --> 00:11:12.458 days of what is now ColourSpace was then Light 222 00:11:12.541 --> 00:11:16.375 Space. So, you know, we've had a whole host of 223 00:11:16.458 --> 00:11:21.166 different people involved in the products over the 224 00:11:21.250 --> 00:11:23.666 years. And many of them, you know, we are still in 225 00:11:23.750 --> 00:11:26.833 touch with. I'm amazed to hear backstories of where 226 00:11:26.916 --> 00:11:29.666 people got their starts and how they have kind of 227 00:11:29.750 --> 00:11:32.291 ended up where they are. I mean, Walter's amazing. 228 00:11:33.125 --> 00:11:37.333 He turned that into his own thing and he's ended 229 00:11:37.416 --> 00:11:40.125 up being very good at it. But again, like me, he 230 00:11:40.208 --> 00:11:43.708 was an engineer. Not a creative initially, 231 00:11:44.125 --> 00:11:46.333 but obviously he's turned out to be able to merge 232 00:11:46.416 --> 00:11:49.666 those two together in a very impressive way. 233 00:11:50.083 --> 00:11:51.625 And that's kind of where I come from. You know, I'm 234 00:11:51.708 --> 00:11:53.916 an engineer, but I ended up doing visual effects 235 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.375 for real. And I've supervised visual effects on 236 00:11:56.458 --> 00:11:58.375 set. I've done the color grading. I've done 237 00:11:58.458 --> 00:12:02.083 visual effects work for real. So, you know, we've 238 00:12:02.166 --> 00:12:04.541 done all of that. And all of that has helped 239 00:12:04.625 --> 00:12:07.916 develop ColourSpace. And going back to your 240 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:10.958 question, that was kind of where originally it 241 00:12:11.041 --> 00:12:13.833 was intended, that it would be used by 242 00:12:13.916 --> 00:12:17.541 professionals for color management. Both, you know, 243 00:12:18.250 --> 00:12:21.166 calibration of displays came a little later. 244 00:12:21.583 --> 00:12:23.500 Initially, it was more about color management 245 00:12:23.791 --> 00:12:26.708 for pipelines, for workflow from cameras. 246 00:12:26.875 --> 00:12:28.875 through into the editing and 247 00:12:28.958 --> 00:12:31.291 grading side of it and the calibration. 248 00:12:31.583 --> 00:12:35.416 side kind of has been added onto that later. Just 249 00:12:35.500 --> 00:12:37.541 one of the reasons we completely rewrote 250 00:12:37.625 --> 00:12:40.708 the program from Light Space to ColourSpace so 251 00:12:40.791 --> 00:12:42.833 that we could effectively invert it because 252 00:12:42.916 --> 00:12:44.958 the calibration has become a bigger part of the 253 00:12:45.041 --> 00:12:46.916 product rather than the color management 254 00:12:47.125 --> 00:12:50.958 per se. But in doing that, it's ended up being used 255 00:12:51.041 --> 00:12:53.541 in places we never thought of. We sell 256 00:12:53.625 --> 00:12:56.041 into medical because calibration for medical 257 00:12:56.125 --> 00:12:58.333 displays is huge, something called DICOM. 258 00:12:59.583 --> 00:13:03.041 Home cinema users, we sell an extraordinary amount 259 00:13:03.125 --> 00:13:05.041 of software to home cinema users that 260 00:13:05.125 --> 00:13:07.000 want to have their... 261 00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:08.083 home cinema. 262 00:13:08.625 --> 00:13:11.291 mirroring the environment and that includes the 263 00:13:11.375 --> 00:13:12.750 color and all the rest of it that you 264 00:13:12.833 --> 00:13:15.666 get in grading houses. So the 265 00:13:15.750 --> 00:13:19.000 application has grown astronomically. 266 00:13:19.916 --> 00:13:23.875 And then with ColourSpace, I mean I know it's 267 00:13:23.958 --> 00:13:25.625 always so difficult to squeeze, and I 268 00:13:25.708 --> 00:13:26.916 knew this was going to be hard with you anyway 269 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:28.083 because there's so many things I want to talk 270 00:13:28.166 --> 00:13:30.958 about, but if we focus on ColourSpace for a 271 00:13:31.041 --> 00:13:34.000 second, someone comes to you, say they've 272 00:13:34.083 --> 00:13:36.500 got a home cinema or maybe they're a studio and 273 00:13:36.583 --> 00:13:38.208 they go, "Alright, we want to get this 274 00:13:38.291 --> 00:13:41.541 right." So where do they start in working with you? 275 00:13:42.458 --> 00:13:45.041 Realistically, it comes down to what level of 276 00:13:45.125 --> 00:13:46.916 calibration accuracy they're aiming for 277 00:13:47.166 --> 00:13:49.791 and realistically what their budget is. You know, 278 00:13:49.875 --> 00:13:51.500 the software is one part of it, but 279 00:13:51.583 --> 00:13:54.541 the hardware associated with that can be an even 280 00:13:54.625 --> 00:13:57.291 bigger part in cost terms. And at the 281 00:13:57.375 --> 00:14:00.333 end of the day, the measurement devices that you're 282 00:14:00.416 --> 00:14:02.583 using dictate the level of accuracy 283 00:14:02.708 --> 00:14:06.916 you can attain no matter what software you use. We 284 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:08.333 will obviously say that our software 285 00:14:08.416 --> 00:14:11.041 is the best on the planet for doing calibration and 286 00:14:11.125 --> 00:14:13.875 color workflows and things, but it is 287 00:14:13.958 --> 00:14:16.958 always limited by the ability of the devices that 288 00:14:17.041 --> 00:14:19.250 you're using. That includes the display, 289 00:14:20.125 --> 00:14:23.416 probes and to be fair, the actual color pipeline. 290 00:14:23.500 --> 00:14:25.000 You'll be surprised how many times there are 291 00:14:25.083 --> 00:14:27.750 distortions put into it just through having a 292 00:14:27.833 --> 00:14:29.541 color pipeline that just isn't configured 293 00:14:29.708 --> 00:14:33.000 correctly. But that's the kind of thing that we can 294 00:14:33.083 --> 00:14:36.208 fix. And the level of fixing is down 295 00:14:36.291 --> 00:14:40.500 to the end user and what they are trying to attain 296 00:14:40.583 --> 00:14:42.458 and how much money they actually want 297 00:14:42.541 --> 00:14:43.583 to spend at the end of the day. 298 00:14:46.125 --> 00:14:48.625 I've got my list of questions here. I see my sand 299 00:14:48.708 --> 00:14:50.875 timer. I'm going, "Shh, what do I 300 00:14:50.958 --> 00:14:56.250 do?" But okay, here's a selfish one for me. With 301 00:14:56.333 --> 00:14:58.125 this revolution of remote colour grading, 302 00:14:58.250 --> 00:15:01.041 I'm constantly dealing with clients who are, you 303 00:15:01.125 --> 00:15:02.541 know, they're not in my suite and they're 304 00:15:02.625 --> 00:15:05.208 looking at on something else. I'd love to hear your 305 00:15:05.291 --> 00:15:09.041 thoughts about how do you tackle 306 00:15:09.416 --> 00:15:11.916 something like that when you can't always manage 307 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:13.500 what people are looking at things on? 308 00:15:13.958 --> 00:15:16.541 Yeah, realistically, it's almost an impossible 309 00:15:16.625 --> 00:15:20.875 question because unless you have hands-on 310 00:15:20.958 --> 00:15:24.416 with whatever display devices they're using, it's 311 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:26.250 impossible to guess what they are, how 312 00:15:26.333 --> 00:15:29.666 they're set up, what their colorability really is. 313 00:15:30.416 --> 00:15:32.583 I mean, we have clients that will 314 00:15:32.666 --> 00:15:38.208 send a probe, just a small one just to get at least 315 00:15:38.291 --> 00:15:41.708 better. So something like a Spyder 316 00:15:41.833 --> 00:15:45.708 X2 or an i1-D3 or something like that that's not 317 00:15:45.791 --> 00:15:47.958 overly expensive. But they're still good. 318 00:15:49.041 --> 00:15:53.458 They're capable of reasonably good color accuracy 319 00:15:53.541 --> 00:15:55.833 if they're managed correctly. So 320 00:15:55.916 --> 00:15:59.833 they'll send that to the client with one of our 321 00:15:59.916 --> 00:16:03.041 software licenses that is the low-end 322 00:16:03.833 --> 00:16:06.750 side of it because you can remote access to it. So 323 00:16:06.833 --> 00:16:09.333 the post house that's got our full 324 00:16:09.416 --> 00:16:12.291 ColourSpace, XPT or whatever, they can actually 325 00:16:12.375 --> 00:16:15.208 control this other version of it at the client's 326 00:16:15.291 --> 00:16:17.458 location with a probe and they can measure the 327 00:16:17.541 --> 00:16:20.708 display remotely. That measurement data 328 00:16:20.791 --> 00:16:23.708 comes back to the post house in ColourSpace. They 329 00:16:23.791 --> 00:16:25.708 can actually then generate an offset 330 00:16:25.791 --> 00:16:31.125 LUT within ColourSpace and just burn that into the 331 00:16:31.208 --> 00:16:33.000 imagery before they send it to the 332 00:16:33.083 --> 00:16:36.000 client. They don't have to calibrate their display, 333 00:16:36.291 --> 00:16:38.833 they just have to know what the display 334 00:16:38.916 --> 00:16:42.500 is like, what its parameters are. In doing that, 335 00:16:42.583 --> 00:16:44.500 you can build a lookup table and burn 336 00:16:44.583 --> 00:16:46.875 it into the footage before you send it. That's very 337 00:16:46.958 --> 00:16:50.666 clever. That's quite common, common approach 338 00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:55.250 nowadays. And obviously you're finding this is... 339 00:16:56.041 --> 00:16:58.125 Well, no, it's not obvious, but I'm assuming 340 00:16:58.291 --> 00:17:00.875 this is much more common now, right? Because so 341 00:17:00.958 --> 00:17:02.500 many more people are doing remote work. 342 00:17:02.958 --> 00:17:05.666 Yeah, I mean, if people are doing remote work where 343 00:17:05.750 --> 00:17:08.625 they really are colluding on a project, 344 00:17:09.250 --> 00:17:11.666 that needs to be handled differently because they 345 00:17:11.750 --> 00:17:13.500 all need to know that the monitors that 346 00:17:13.583 --> 00:17:17.791 they're using are properly calibrated and are of a 347 00:17:17.875 --> 00:17:20.500 consistent level of capability. So 348 00:17:20.583 --> 00:17:23.250 in those situations, everybody involved 349 00:17:23.333 --> 00:17:25.375 realistically has got to be 350 00:17:25.458 --> 00:17:26.708 calibrating their displays. 351 00:17:27.083 --> 00:17:30.166 Otherwise, there's too many variables to go wrong. 352 00:17:30.666 --> 00:17:34.500 Yeah, that's exactly it. And of course, my sand 353 00:17:34.583 --> 00:17:36.875 time has run out, but as always, I'm 354 00:17:36.958 --> 00:17:39.041 going to cheat and just, I'm going to throw one 355 00:17:39.125 --> 00:17:41.416 more. And again, it's a selfish question. 356 00:17:42.208 --> 00:17:44.208 Folks who have listened to my podcast have probably 357 00:17:44.291 --> 00:17:45.708 already gathered that I'm obsessed 358 00:17:45.791 --> 00:17:47.666 with black and white, which is ironic as a 359 00:17:47.750 --> 00:17:51.000 colorist. But I want to talk to you or ask 360 00:17:51.083 --> 00:17:54.333 you about, does calibration play 361 00:17:54.416 --> 00:17:57.250 a role in black and white images? 362 00:17:58.833 --> 00:18:04.208 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there is no such thing as 363 00:18:04.291 --> 00:18:06.375 a black and white image. I don't 364 00:18:06.458 --> 00:18:08.375 mean that in the sense that they've got 365 00:18:08.458 --> 00:18:09.791 chromaticity values in them, 366 00:18:09.875 --> 00:18:11.458 because they don't. But when 367 00:18:11.541 --> 00:18:14.958 you're displaying them, there isn't a single 368 00:18:15.041 --> 00:18:17.583 channel that is black and white that goes 369 00:18:17.666 --> 00:18:21.583 to the monitor. It's still using the standard RGB 370 00:18:21.666 --> 00:18:25.000 concept of displaying an image. It's just 371 00:18:25.083 --> 00:18:28.125 that it is balancing them out to try to neutralize 372 00:18:28.208 --> 00:18:30.458 the chromaticity, reduce the saturation and 373 00:18:30.541 --> 00:18:34.166 so on. But a black and white image isn't as simple 374 00:18:34.250 --> 00:18:37.875 as just desaturating the color. The 375 00:18:38.166 --> 00:18:40.208 amount of red, green and blue, if you're talking 376 00:18:40.291 --> 00:18:43.041 about emissive displays, will actually 377 00:18:43.208 --> 00:18:46.708 significantly alter your perception of a black and 378 00:18:46.791 --> 00:18:49.083 white image, because the balance dictates 379 00:18:49.416 --> 00:18:52.375 how much of one color is affecting the actual 380 00:18:52.458 --> 00:18:54.208 density of the black and white image, as it 381 00:18:54.291 --> 00:18:57.708 were. So you can still do some seriously 382 00:18:57.791 --> 00:18:59.833 interesting things with 383 00:18:59.916 --> 00:19:01.541 black and white by understanding 384 00:19:01.708 --> 00:19:05.000 the mix, the ratio mixture of the three color 385 00:19:05.083 --> 00:19:07.000 channels being used to generate the black 386 00:19:07.083 --> 00:19:10.125 and white image, or to control the black and white 387 00:19:10.208 --> 00:19:12.166 image when you're adjusting it. 388 00:19:13.416 --> 00:19:16.333 I have just got to stop myself because I've got so 389 00:19:16.416 --> 00:19:18.375 many more, but I'll finish off with 390 00:19:18.458 --> 00:19:21.875 this last one. So say somebody, maybe it's a home 391 00:19:21.958 --> 00:19:24.166 cinema, or maybe they're a colorist 392 00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:27.708 who are setting up their studio, and they want to 393 00:19:27.791 --> 00:19:29.541 work with you guys. So where would 394 00:19:29.625 --> 00:19:31.958 they start? Obviously, they look you guys up on the 395 00:19:32.041 --> 00:19:34.041 web, and then what happens normally? 396 00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:36.666 Or just reaches out? I guess 397 00:19:36.750 --> 00:19:38.666 normally they email or phone. 398 00:19:39.291 --> 00:19:42.791 Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of different 399 00:19:42.875 --> 00:19:45.500 options as to what kind of services you guys 400 00:19:45.583 --> 00:19:49.583 can offer. If somebody knows exactly what they 401 00:19:49.666 --> 00:19:53.250 want, they're setting up the classic 402 00:19:53.541 --> 00:19:56.250 one, they're setting up a home studio to grade, 403 00:19:56.708 --> 00:20:00.125 maybe because they're doing work that is outside 404 00:20:00.375 --> 00:20:03.041 of a post studio, or they're doing stuff that they 405 00:20:03.125 --> 00:20:05.083 want to work remotely at home, 406 00:20:05.416 --> 00:20:08.000 and then go in and finish it later. They know that 407 00:20:08.083 --> 00:20:10.458 they've bought this monitor that's got 408 00:20:10.541 --> 00:20:13.041 3D LUT capability, and it needs to be calibrated 409 00:20:13.125 --> 00:20:15.583 to give them a chance to be consistent with 410 00:20:15.666 --> 00:20:17.125 what they're doing in the post house or whatever. 411 00:20:17.541 --> 00:20:19.125 And they'll go, right, I need a probe, I need 412 00:20:19.208 --> 00:20:22.333 software, and I just get an order. Because they 413 00:20:22.416 --> 00:20:25.208 know exactly what it is they need. But 414 00:20:25.791 --> 00:20:28.875 more often than not, people will go, we don't know 415 00:20:28.958 --> 00:20:31.708 where to start. We are looking to do 416 00:20:31.833 --> 00:20:34.083 this, we're looking to get into doing this kind of 417 00:20:34.166 --> 00:20:36.750 color critical work. And we have 418 00:20:36.833 --> 00:20:40.791 discussions. And dialogue is a lot of what we're 419 00:20:40.875 --> 00:20:43.666 about. I mean, the number of emails 420 00:20:43.791 --> 00:20:46.875 and phone calls and things that I get daily is 421 00:20:46.958 --> 00:20:49.833 unbelievable. But that's part of it. The 422 00:20:50.041 --> 00:20:52.791 whole concept of education, training, 423 00:20:53.083 --> 00:20:55.333 understanding, and getting 424 00:20:55.416 --> 00:20:58.791 people to realise what it is that 425 00:20:58.875 --> 00:21:02.333 you can do is as big a part of just making a sale. 426 00:21:03.208 --> 00:21:04.916 Because it makes the world easier 427 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:07.333 if people really understand what it is they're 428 00:21:07.416 --> 00:21:10.291 trying to do and how best to approach it. I 429 00:21:10.375 --> 00:21:13.083 mean, this, you know, talking about sales pitching, 430 00:21:13.166 --> 00:21:14.708 but this this latest thing that we've 431 00:21:14.791 --> 00:21:17.166 literally just announced in the last few days, this 432 00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:20.375 thing called a Image Sequence Pro is 433 00:21:20.541 --> 00:21:23.375 changing the way that you can deal with virtual 434 00:21:23.458 --> 00:21:26.916 sets, the ability to match video walls to 435 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.666 foreground objects, such that the camera captures 436 00:21:30.750 --> 00:21:33.333 the two within the same concept of colour 437 00:21:33.416 --> 00:21:37.125 imagery has been critical. And we just come, you 438 00:21:37.208 --> 00:21:39.375 know what, we'll fix this problem. And it took 439 00:21:39.458 --> 00:21:41.750 us a week or two to do the software. I've got it 440 00:21:41.833 --> 00:21:44.000 here. I've not released it yet. It may get 441 00:21:44.083 --> 00:21:46.583 released today. It certainly will get released in 442 00:21:46.666 --> 00:21:49.000 the next couple of days. But basically, it's 443 00:21:49.083 --> 00:21:54.583 using a camera as a probe to measure the video wall 444 00:21:54.666 --> 00:21:57.166 and make sure that what the camera sees from 445 00:21:57.250 --> 00:21:59.375 the video wall is the same as what it would see off 446 00:21:59.458 --> 00:22:01.916 the foreground objects. So you can cancel out 447 00:22:02.125 --> 00:22:05.166 as much as is possible. The metameric issues 448 00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:09.375 between, you know, what are RGB LED walls and 449 00:22:10.041 --> 00:22:13.416 foreground objects that are lit with better CRI 450 00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:16.000 lighting. There are other ways around it. Brompton 451 00:22:16.666 --> 00:22:19.666 using LED walls now that have got a white pixel to 452 00:22:19.750 --> 00:22:22.291 try to infill some of the CRI value, you know, 453 00:22:22.583 --> 00:22:25.083 infill colours. But even then, you still got to 454 00:22:25.166 --> 00:22:28.208 have the same approach, the camera will never see 455 00:22:28.458 --> 00:22:32.291 the different, you know, an emissive light from an 456 00:22:32.375 --> 00:22:35.000 LED wall with an illuminated foreground isn't 457 00:22:35.083 --> 00:22:37.208 going to be seen the same. Whereas, you know, our 458 00:22:37.291 --> 00:22:40.083 software can fix that. Steve, you are so 459 00:22:40.166 --> 00:22:44.791 interesting. I'm really, really glad that we... Too 460 00:22:44.875 --> 00:22:49.125 bad, too bad it's out there, man. Thank you so 461 00:22:49.208 --> 00:22:51.583 much, so very much for coming on the show and 462 00:22:51.666 --> 00:22:54.791 having me, you know, having this rapid chat with 463 00:22:54.875 --> 00:22:57.458 me. I know there's a lot to dig into, but I'm 464 00:22:57.541 --> 00:22:58.166 really grateful. Thank 465 00:22:58.250 --> 00:22:59.958 you. That's right. No problem. 466 00:23:00.625 --> 00:23:00.916 Cheers, mate. 467 00:23:01.583 --> 00:23:02.708 Steve, thank you so much for 468 00:23:02.791 --> 00:23:04.000 chatting to me. That was fantastic. 469 00:23:04.791 --> 00:23:08.333 After I hit stop on the recording, we continued to 470 00:23:08.416 --> 00:23:10.291 chat for a bit longer about some cool stuff 471 00:23:10.375 --> 00:23:13.458 and I kind of wish I just kept it going. Yeah, a 472 00:23:13.541 --> 00:23:15.500 really fascinating fellow to speak with. 473 00:23:16.750 --> 00:23:19.125 Thank you for joining me everybody. I will put 474 00:23:19.208 --> 00:23:23.750 notes as to where you can find all of Steve Shaw's 475 00:23:24.333 --> 00:23:26.666 information and some of the stuff he's been working 476 00:23:26.750 --> 00:23:29.041 on. Thank you very much to my executive 477 00:23:29.166 --> 00:23:31.666 producer MixingLight.com. If you don't know who 478 00:23:31.750 --> 00:23:34.375 they are, they can help you all things color, 479 00:23:34.458 --> 00:23:36.541 MixingLight.com. To my friend of the show, 480 00:23:36.916 --> 00:23:40.291 Filmlight, thank you very much. To my producer, 481 00:23:40.666 --> 00:23:43.250 Kayla, and to you, thank you for listening. Thank 482 00:23:43.333 --> 00:23:44.833 you so much for listening. We've got one more 483 00:23:44.916 --> 00:23:47.375 episode to go and that's the end of season one. So 484 00:23:47.458 --> 00:23:50.125 yeah, join me next time. Thanks. See you. 485 00:23:51.958 --> 00:23:55.291 The Colour Timer, a micro podcast experience.