391 mrna vax
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[00:00:00] Kevin Folta: Hi everybody, and welcome to another week of Talking Biotech podcast by Collabora. Now, recently there's been a buzz in social media about the new dangers. Of mRNA vaccines in livestock, and of course there's nothing to worry about there, but the buzz is all about the risk. And it started with some tweets by Robert Malone, the guy who claims to be the inventor of the technology and is starting to grab some sort of attention, especially in the anti-vaccination and anti mRNA vaccination circle.

Recent legislation that's been brought to the fore in Missouri and Idaho and Arizona, uh, seek to. The deployment and access to this new technology, which really could potentially hurt farmers and ranchers. So I wanted to talk to two experts on this particular topic. So today we're speaking with Dr.

Allison Van Inan. She's a cooperative extension specialist in Animal Genomics and biotechnology at the University of California Davis. So welcome back for what, the eighth or ninth time, Alison. Nice to 

[00:01:07] Alison Van Eenennaam: be back. 

[00:01:08] Kevin Folta: Yeah. And today we're also joined by Dr. Terry LeBauer. He's a professor in the School of Veterinary Medicine at the University of California Davis.

So welcome to the podcast, Terry. Thank 

[00:01:18] Terry Lehenbauer: you for having me. Yeah, 

[00:01:20] Kevin Folta: thank you very much. This is really an important topic because it's hot. It's in the news. And it's really important that we help fortify the listeners and the other communicators with the proper information so they can help diffuse the false information.

So let's, um, start at the beginning. Can we just revisit mRNA vaccines? Um, why are there, why are they useful, and what advantages do they have over traditional inactivated or attenuated viral vaccine? 

[00:01:47] Terry Lehenbauer: The main advantages of mRNA vaccines is their, of their custom nature, and I'm talking in the livestock area, so when there are existing commercial vaccines for a number of diseases, but when the existing vaccines aren't effective or not specific for the disease problem.

The mRNA vaccine technology provides an option to veterinarians and their their producers to create a custom vaccine in a relatively short period of time that offers a chance for being effective against dealing with diseases. And mostly in this regard, we're talking about viral diseases rather than bacterial diseases.

So it's the custom nature how quickly they can be develop. And when they're relatively potent or effective regarding the immune response that they generate. And so that's the main advantages and and reasons for. Considering the mRNA vaccines in, in the livestock world, 

[00:02:49] Alison Van Eenennaam: maybe, maybe I could just, um, pipe in here, Kevin, in that, just to make sure everyone's on the same page, what an mRNA vaccine is, basically you're introducing, uh, the messenger rna, which tells the body to produce a particular protein, and you want that protein to be an antigen.

To which the body will then produce antibodies. So it's introducing an antigen in a way that is very targeted for the protein that's associated with whatever, um, virus you're trying to eliminate without actually having to introduce either an inactivated virus or an attenuated virus. And so it's a, it's a very targeted way to just produce a protein.

And the mRNA, once it's produced, the protein breaks down really quickly. Um, in fact, Kind of hard to keep RNA around. It's a very, uh, easily destroyed molecule. And so after it's been, um, given it is quickly broken down. And so it's, it's really a targeted way to introduce, um, an antigen that the body then produces antibodies to.

And that is what gives you protection from the, the particular, um, virus that you're trying to protect against. 

[00:03:56] Kevin Folta: And we know that in Covid the discussion was around how agile the, the, uh, this technology was in terms of ge uh, responding to new variants or even the original, uh, variant being, uh, available as a vaccine within 42 days of the sequence occurring.

Is that really why they're so attractive in livestock as well? 

[00:04:17] Terry Lehenbauer: Right. Uh, again, it's the, for situations like for example, in the swine industry, There can be some GI diseases related to, uh, rotaviruses and different, different strains of those. And so there are no existing vaccines or other treatments that are effective.

So the m RNA vaccine platform that Allison described is a very unique way to take, uh, virus from the, the swine operation that's having problems and developing. Messenger RNA vaccine product so that it will be specific for that farm and, and be effective for dealing with the disease. And so that's, that's kind of the main, one of the main advantages is existing products aren't available or effective.

And so veterinarians and producers are looking for other solutions. And so the mRNA provides that opportu. 

[00:05:18] Kevin Folta: I, I think the other one that I see is that it makes it much easier to produce than to produce viruses and then purify the, the proteins from them or to attenuate them that here you're just producing a nucleic acid and then encapsulating that in a nanoparticle and just the manufacture side is so much easier and faster, less, uh, onerous regulation that it just makes us so much more agile.

But what are some of the examples of diseases in livestock? Really on the drawing board to be addressed by mRNA vaccines. 

[00:05:50] Terry Lehenbauer: Currently, they're, I'm only aware of two different companies that are actually producing mRNA vaccines for, for livestock use through their veterinarians. And so one of those companies is Med Gene Labs, which happens to be located in Brooking, South Dakota.

And it, you know, it's been around for 10 years or so, as I understand. And then the other one is, uh, Merck Animal Health. And right now all of the messenger RNA vaccines that are available, uh, to, to be de produced are for swine and swine diseases. There's obviously work being done to develop some for cattle, but none currently are available at this time.

Again, they're all viruses in the swine industry. The ones that are being used, uh, swine influenza is one in particular. And then as I mentioned, rotavirus and some other viral, uh, diseases. Particularly it seems like respiratory and, and diseases that cause problems with the digestive system are the main pathogens or disease-causing viruses where there's the greatest need and opportunity for the mRNA vaccines.

So it's, it's actually relatively new. Uh, they haven't been available very long. It's fairly recently, but I would expect with time that they'll become available for other, other livestock besides swine cattle and others. And, uh, as we learn more about them, they'll probably have wider avail, wider usage, uh, going, going forward in time.

Well, when we look 

[00:07:34] Kevin Folta: at examples of, uh, swine diseases, for instance, um, I think it's, uh, is it East African Swine Fever virus, which was endemic in China that reduced their, uh, swine herd by half or by pers in the states, which has huge economic impact. How much does viral disease really cost the animal? 

[00:07:54] Alison Van Eenennaam: Oh, it's a lot, Kevin.

So, you know, African swine fever decimated the Chinese, uh, swine industry and pers is, um, endemic here in America. And I think it, it's, it's around about a billion dollars in, um, losses from that. It's both a respiratory and reproductive. Syndrome virus. So it affects both ends of it. Um, and certainly it's something that, um, if we had a solution to it, and there are a couple of different approaches, obviously the viral vaccines that we're talking about.

Um, but also there is actually, um, a genome edited pig that's being, um, Taken through, um, authorization that actually has inactivated the actual gene that enables the virus to gain access to the pigs that produces pigs that are no longer susceptible to the virus. And I guess as a, as a geneticist, I think that if you can produce pigs that aren't susceptible or use a vaccine to make pigs that are no longer gonna suffer from that virus, that's a better solution than having pigs that get sick and needed to get.

Treated with antibiotics and, you know, these are solutions to problems. Um, and to me, let's not stop progress and innovation from addressing these problems because to me, that's better than having pigs getting sick and dying and better for the farmer, better for the pigs, better the environment. 

[00:09:14] Kevin Folta: Yeah, I, I agree a hundred percent.

And as a guy who periodically has to vaccinate chicks against Merrick's disease, If there was a way that I could have a chicken that was genetically not susceptible to it, that would be the much. Possibility. So this idea of having genetically engineered pigs, that's a great topic for another, actually we did that on the series, but when didn't we talk about the vaccines and we're giving vaccines to livestock in general.

Isn't there a withdrawal period before the animal can be processed for food? Uh, 

[00:09:46] Terry Lehenbauer: yes, that's true. Uh, all vaccines that are administered to livestock have a withdrawal period of, of 21 days. There are some vaccines that may have a 60 day withdrawal period, and that's for, for animals going into meat production.

Uh, the withdrawal periods don't apply for, for the milk production aspect. And it's, it's directly related to the fact that the vaccines are injected into the animal or applied to the animal through other routes. And so, The 21 day withdrawal has been around for a long time in the law, and it's just, uh, an extra measure of caution.

And the ones that are 60 days that are longer are most of the time due to the, what's called the adjuvant that's in the vaccine to provide a stronger immune response. Those specific vaccines, uh, with certain adjuvants have a, a longer period of 60 days, so all vaccines have a withdrawal period. Of at least 21 days for, uh, animals intended for meat 

[00:10:55] Kevin Folta: product.

And mRNA, like you mentioned, a relatively unstable molecule. And even these vaccines which are manufactured with pseudo uridine as a substitute for uridine or sil, are they still, um, relatively fast to turn over? Yeah. 

[00:11:11] Alison Van Eenennaam: I mean, I presume you had some RNA vaccines during covid, and remember how they were brought in on minus 80 and then they had to be used very quickly.

Because they do break down very quickly. And, um, you know, when I look at some of the information, or I would argue misinformation around the mRNA vaccines as it relates to livestock, is that somehow this would be transferred to humans via their diet in meat and milk. It's just, it's, first of all, there aren't any mRNA vaccines for cattle, but just the, the whole concept, it, it just, it just makes me concerned about science education because that's not how it works.

Like when. DNA from an animal, you don't get the DNA transforming you in the same way rna, which is much more, um, kind of, you know, sensitive than, than dna. It, it can't survive the digestive process. And it's just this idea that this is an issue or a safety concern just, just is not. What biology suggests is true, and it's, uh, you know, I feel like we're, we've just substituted a different three letter acronym for GMOs, and now we're just using, you know, our, uh, mRNA, um, as a kind of a, a trigger for fear, um, when in fact biology doesn't suggest that's the case.

And, uh, It's frustrating and I, as a science communicator, I, I don't know how to address it cuz we've, we've been dealing with this for 20 years and we still have a lot of, um, you know, kind of misinformation around this type of technology. So, um, yeah, RNA is, is hard to keep around, ask anybody that works in a molecular lab because, you know, uh, doing a, doing a blot with with RNA is always difficult.

So I, um, it's. Hard to get that narrative, um, away from fear, unfortunately. 

[00:13:00] Kevin Folta: Well, one of the ways we might be able to start that equation is by talking about the good things that can come from it. And besides for applications in livestock, we know that Ebola, that SARS Mers and probably SARS COV two, they all apparently came from animal intermediates and that there was some sort of zoonotic transfer to humans.

And doesn't mRNA based strategy like this mean that we could possibly even inoculate wild populations for when zoonotic potential variants are detected? I mean, really solve these problems before they start? 

[00:13:36] Terry Lehenbauer: Yeah. That, that's an interesting concept. I think it, it's certainly. Interesting to think about. I think from a clinical perspective as a veterinarian, one of the challenges in, in those kinds of approaches is how do you get the mRNA vaccine into the, the animal that you're trying to, to vaccinate, to change the disease situation and the disease outcome.

And so that always for wildlife is, is a problem. And, uh, My understanding that all the mRNA vaccines have to be injected. We have other diseases where we can provide vaccines orally. Uh, rabies is an example of that where oral vaccines can be given, but I'm not, I might have to defer to Alison, but I don't think any of our mRNA technologies allow that.

They would require the animal to be confined enough so that it could be injected in a certain way before they, before they could be vaccin. 

[00:14:32] Alison Van Eenennaam: Yeah, I, I think an oral mRNA would be digested pretty quickly. Um, so maybe you know, Terry, that's a good point cuz that that's part of the concern or the fear here is that eating animals that have had an mRNA vaccine somehow gonna vaccinate the consumer.

And so maybe you could speak a little bit about the oral vaccine. So you mentioned rabies, so what's different about that vaccine relative to mRNA vaccines? Can put to rest this concern that somehow mRNA vaccines are gonna be, um, transmitted via milk and meat. What is it about the rabies vaccine that can be fed?

[00:15:08] Terry Lehenbauer: Yes, so obviously, as you indicated, just the normal eating and digestion process, the acids in the stomach and enzymes will break down substances or particles that are sensitive to those things, such as the mRNA for its it for itself. But for other vaccines like the rabies, it's a. Component that will bypass the effects of that and then will be taken up by the animal, through the digestive system, and then produce the immune response.

And so with those that dealing more with the entire, the virus particle and, and not as subs, Particle like it is with the mRNA. So it's a, the very different approach from, from a vaccination strategy, and that's why it can work for rabies. For an oral vaccine, it would not work for an mRNA through an oral, oral route for, as for the reasons that you just explained.

[00:16:07] Kevin Folta: Now. Very good. Well, we're speaking with Dr. Allison Van Enum and Dr. Terry LeBauer. Uh, they're both from University of California Davis, and we're speaking about mRNA vaccines in Livestock and attempting to diffuse a manufactured controversy. Uh, unfortunately that's happening again, but this is a Talking Biotech podcast by Collabora, and we'll be back in just a.

And now we're back on the Talking Biotech Podcast by Collabora, and we're speaking with Dr. Allison Van Inan and Dr. Terry Landauer of the University of California Davis. And we're speaking about mRNA livestock vaccines, and really the manufactured controversy around this excellent modality, which shows tons of promise.

Beating a whole host, diseases and animals as well as humans, but lots of interesting things happening in the veterinary world. I was, I was pretty amazed to see the large amount of, uh, vaccines and diseases that are being targeted with this technology. Um, and what I'm interested in is what's happening in social media and in state legislatures.

So what's going on right now with respect to potential? Legislation policy changes around mRNA vaccines and the animals they're delivered too. 

[00:17:24] Terry Lehenbauer: A lot of times what seems to happen is some comment or statement is made and it may be perhaps, uh, misspoken or misinterpreted or misapplied, and I think that's kind of the fundamental problem and.

When, when there's fear or apprehension around a topic or a concern such as there has been with vaccination with Mr. RNA vaccines and people related to covid, then I think that just kind of a, unfortunately a spillover process when, when. People hear about another application in livestock and, and because of the unknown, uh, or lack of knowledge, may cause actions to happen that from a scientific standpoint are not really justified or reasonable.

And so that's, that's kind of my general perspective. 

[00:18:16] Alison Van Eenennaam: Uh, I mean, I, I think Kevin, what I've seen is, is this proposed legislation, I think in Missouri that wants to label the meat from cattle inoculated with mRNA vaccines to be a gene therapy product. Um, and it, it reminds me a little bit of the G M O labeling debate.

It's like we just wanna let people know as if there is something inherently dangerous there. Um, and I, I think we're going down that same pathway, um, and the. That I think it's concerning. The gene therapy product concept is really not what's happening here. Well, what's happening is if, if it was being used in cuddle, which is not, as Terry just alluded to, it's being used in pork, so pigs, um, if it was being used, it's introducing a, a short term r n a, that produces a protein that elicits an antibody response, and that's what protects the animal.

It is not modifying the DNA of that animal in any way, and it's certainly not. Capacity to modify the DNA of the consumer who's subsequently gonna eat that animal, you know, 60 days later or something like that. So I feel like the whole premise is set up on incorrect understanding of basic biology. Um, and it always sounds very inno.

We just wanna give consumers a choice, but just imagine. So, okay, I've, I wanna label product that's had a certain vaccination. That in requires entire supply chain separation for something that is not any different in terms of inherit risks and, and there's a very big cost associated with that. And so I feel a little bit like we're going to Groundhogs Day as it relates to G M O labeling as it relates to.

This animal was treated with mRNA. So if there's an inter hazard, fine, um, you know, if it's got a peanut allergy in it, I wanna know that because maybe my kid has a peanut allergy. But if there's no difference in the safety of the product, just requiring labeling as a kind of a concept. Does come with these huge supply chain segregation issues, especially when you're talking about, for example, you know, meat and milk, which by definition are combination of, of products from multiple animals.

And so I think that it sounds innocuous, but it's actually quite difficult to implement and it should be done in situations when there's an actual risk involved rather than just, it will be nice to know, and I think that's what concerns me around this legislation. 

[00:20:46] Kevin Folta: Yeah. Also the fact that if they do it one way in Missouri and say you have to label it as gene therapy in Missouri, which it's not gene therapy, but then Arizona comes up with different rules, or Idaho comes up with different rules.

Now you have to have special packaging in every state. Which you can imagine would be a problem. It's, it's, it's, 

[00:21:05] Alison Van Eenennaam: it's GMO labeling 1 0 1. Like we've, we've been through this and it was painful already, and, and it's like, yeah, here we go again, kind of thing. So yeah, I think that the concept of Gene, if it was that easy to do gene therapy, how amazing would that be to cure?

People that have genetic issues like sickle cell disease, like that is not how this, if it was that easy that we would've solved that problem. And, and it's not that easy. And I think it's a just a fundamental misunderstanding of, of how the technology's being used and it seems to be an intentional, um, scare a technique by certain groups to, to create a drama or a controversy where none really should exist.

[00:21:47] Kevin Folta: Yeah, and I guess the big thing that bothers me is that, This is technology that really is designed to help, uh, poultry farmers and ranchers and could have tremendous benefit. And when you look at things like avian influenza and the fact that they, you know, bulldoze how many, you know, millions of birds every year, um, uh, fish farming, there are mRNA vaccines that are now target.

Fish farming. So there's so many different, and these are all in development, but there are so many good options that would be outstanding for the farm and for the ranch that we're on the cusp of potentially losing if this kind of fear campaign gains hold and we have to start segregating products. I 

[00:22:29] Terry Lehenbauer: think that's a great point.

Uh, you know, our, our agriculture system and particularly our livestock system, has made great progress over time with advances in science and technology, and it's really critical that that continues so that we can continue to feed a, an expanding population with products that are safe and wholesome and at an affordable cost.

So if we lose. The advantages of some of these technologies such as mRNA, vaccine technology that will potentially decrease the food supply, make it more expensive and less available, and so that's clearly going in the wrong direction. One of the advantages of the mRNA vaccine technology is just like we saw, we've seen to some extent with Human Covid or sars COV two is.

Viruses by nature tend to change or mutate. And so this technology allows the veterinarian and the producer to quickly develop a, a new strain of the vaccine using this technology. And without it, that capability would not exist. And so again, it's really important to, for these diseases caused particularly by viruses, that we can be able to respond in a very timely and an effective way.

Uh, We don't have other tools that are as good at doing that as we as the mRNA technology potentially provides. 

[00:23:54] Kevin Folta: Well, Dr. Allison Van, Dr. Terry Landauer, thank you very much for joining me today on The Talking Biotech Podcast, and I hope we can revisit this topic again sometime soon because this seems like technology that's here to stay and, and I'm amazed at how many.

Solutions are in development for animal diseases, which really are going to help the farmer and help animal husbandry, which is really important. So thank you for joining me today. 

[00:24:18] Terry Lehenbauer: Thank you, Kevin. 

[00:24:19] Alison Van Eenennaam: Oh, thanks for having me on the program again, Kevin. And, uh, it was fun to talk about this 

[00:24:24] Kevin Folta: with Terry. And as always, thank you for listening to another week of the Talking Biotech podcast, learn about mRNA vaccines in livestock and in conservation.

This is a really important topic and unfortunately, the manufactured controversy is gaining ground. We see this throughout social media right now. And it's time for us to put a wet blanket on this problem before it gets any worse. So share this podcast. Share the story with friends and family. It's really important to share the science.

Thank you for listening to Collaborators Talking Biotech podcast, and we'll talk to you again next week.