1
00:00:04,368 --> 00:00:07,998
On this episode, I'm joined
by my friend David Flanagan.

2
00:00:07,998 --> 00:00:11,628
You know him as RawKode on
YouTube and around the internet.

3
00:00:11,928 --> 00:00:16,218
And we've known each other for years
in the Kubernetes and KubeCon scene.

4
00:00:16,578 --> 00:00:18,828
Uh, seeing each other at the
conference about twice a year, at

5
00:00:18,828 --> 00:00:20,718
least once a year for many years now.

6
00:00:20,718 --> 00:00:21,168
So.

7
00:00:21,458 --> 00:00:27,548
We've got together a few times and talked
in streams and just, uh, in videos about

8
00:00:28,568 --> 00:00:34,178
what's going on in Kubernetes, and he's
back to talk about a big launch of his

9
00:00:34,178 --> 00:00:37,898
that I'm very excited for us to cover
and get into the weeds because it's

10
00:00:37,898 --> 00:00:42,968
something that every team deals with
and everyone who's learning Kubernetes.

11
00:00:43,773 --> 00:00:48,063
Has to deal with and we
are gonna get into it.

12
00:00:48,303 --> 00:00:53,613
So what this is about is that the
landscape, the CNCF landscape, that's

13
00:00:53,613 --> 00:00:56,853
the thing that we all point everyone
to when they are curious about all the

14
00:00:56,853 --> 00:00:59,103
projects in the Kubernetes community.

15
00:00:59,103 --> 00:01:03,333
And we go send them off to landscape
that c ncf.org, and then they

16
00:01:03,333 --> 00:01:06,753
look at this giant list of over
a thousand open source project.

17
00:01:06,753 --> 00:01:09,783
Well, they're not all, all
open source, but mostly open

18
00:01:09,783 --> 00:01:11,913
source projects that relate.

19
00:01:12,188 --> 00:01:16,268
To Kubernetes or they provide an
additional functionality to Kubernetes

20
00:01:16,524 --> 00:01:18,324
And other cloud native technologies.

21
00:01:18,324 --> 00:01:21,384
I guess it's not just about
Kubernetes, but the challenge

22
00:01:21,384 --> 00:01:23,394
there is where's the happy pass?

23
00:01:23,454 --> 00:01:25,314
Where are the recommended stacks?

24
00:01:25,314 --> 00:01:26,724
Where's the mean stack?

25
00:01:26,724 --> 00:01:31,349
The PHP plus MySQL stack, like
there's all these, in history,

26
00:01:31,349 --> 00:01:33,959
typical stacks of usable technologies.

27
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,429
I was one of those early guys that was
using node js with Mongo because they

28
00:01:38,429 --> 00:01:42,989
seemed like they both sort of rose to
fame in the early 2010s at the same time.

29
00:01:43,086 --> 00:01:46,836
I was developing a lot of backend
JavaScript apps that ran on

30
00:01:46,836 --> 00:01:50,946
Mongo and learning how to use
NoSQL in times where it was cool.

31
00:01:50,946 --> 00:01:54,816
Although now looking back, I probably
could have just stayed with Postgres.

32
00:01:55,176 --> 00:01:59,016
But the point here is that we
all struggle with this, and

33
00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:01,866
especially as you're learning, you
don't know what to learn first.

34
00:02:01,896 --> 00:02:07,961
And RawKode has created an entire website
that we will talk about through this.

35
00:02:08,716 --> 00:02:13,486
Episode on his preferred stack,
and it's not just a list.

36
00:02:13,696 --> 00:02:15,736
This app is quite in depth.

37
00:02:15,736 --> 00:02:20,896
I'm gonna call it an app because it's more
than just a display of listing projects.

38
00:02:21,106 --> 00:02:25,486
It's got commentary, it's got
spicy takes, and he breaks down

39
00:02:25,486 --> 00:02:27,616
his tech matrix solution of.

40
00:02:27,841 --> 00:02:29,371
Cloud native ecosystem.

41
00:02:29,521 --> 00:02:33,631
The way he sees it, the things you need
to evaluate, the things you need to

42
00:02:33,631 --> 00:02:38,941
skip and the things that he advocates
you check into his advocate list are

43
00:02:39,121 --> 00:02:41,446
the must have technologies, and that's.

44
00:02:42,106 --> 00:02:46,396
What we go through in detail is
each of his must haves and why.

45
00:02:46,576 --> 00:02:51,526
Maybe a little bit of his why on how
that came to the list of must-have.

46
00:02:51,526 --> 00:02:52,876
Kubernetes technologies.

47
00:02:53,266 --> 00:02:57,466
We also cover other topics like
Flux versus Argo CD, the HashiCorp

48
00:02:57,466 --> 00:03:02,297
slash IBM controversy and the
CD k deprecation of Terraform.

49
00:03:02,514 --> 00:03:05,514
content creation challenges that
we've both had because we're both

50
00:03:05,514 --> 00:03:08,664
making courses and YouTube videos
and podcasts and all that stuff.

51
00:03:08,694 --> 00:03:12,204
And he's launched all this on
his website at RawKode Academy.

52
00:03:12,414 --> 00:03:17,334
So check it out and go check out his
resources because he's making fun

53
00:03:17,334 --> 00:03:21,744
stuff and I, I really appreciate the
level of effort he's giving to the

54
00:03:21,744 --> 00:03:23,304
community in his open source work.

55
00:03:23,964 --> 00:03:24,504
Here we go.

56
00:03:26,307 --> 00:03:27,157
David, welcome to the show.

57
00:03:27,157 --> 00:03:27,807
Thanks for being here.

58
00:03:28,307 --> 00:03:29,907
no, it's an absolute pleasure to be here.

59
00:03:29,907 --> 00:03:31,087
Thank you so much for having me.

60
00:03:31,407 --> 00:03:34,207
I'm excited to sit down
and talk tech with you.

61
00:03:35,060 --> 00:03:35,460
Yeah.

62
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,380
we've also talked this year a little
bit about course making and the struggle

63
00:03:39,380 --> 00:03:41,150
of being a full time content creator.

64
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,340
we both suffer together and not alone.

65
00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:44,750
In this content game.

66
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:45,270
I mean,

67
00:03:45,364 --> 00:03:46,791
yeah, I'm still not sure.

68
00:03:46,791 --> 00:03:47,411
It's a good idea

69
00:03:47,411 --> 00:03:49,241
it's like the whole
DevRail paradox, right?

70
00:03:49,241 --> 00:03:50,361
Everyone thinks it's glamorous.

71
00:03:50,361 --> 00:03:53,511
You go on planes, fly business
class, stay in hotels have meals

72
00:03:53,511 --> 00:03:55,751
cocktails and just travel the world.

73
00:03:55,751 --> 00:03:58,681
But really underneath, it's a
very difficult job where you

74
00:03:58,681 --> 00:04:01,661
have to be face all of the time.

75
00:04:01,701 --> 00:04:07,091
Putting yourself into, the public
eye and social situations that don't

76
00:04:07,091 --> 00:04:08,591
come easy to a lot of developers.

77
00:04:08,631 --> 00:04:09,451
it's not easy for me.

78
00:04:09,501 --> 00:04:13,191
even doing this online being vulnerable
on YouTube your website LinkedIn and

79
00:04:13,421 --> 00:04:16,611
making content, it's so difficult.

80
00:04:16,661 --> 00:04:20,221
Yeah,

81
00:04:20,377 --> 00:04:21,977
I, don't think I'd change it for anything.

82
00:04:22,007 --> 00:04:25,167
It's, a whole lot of fun when you
get to make up the content that you

83
00:04:25,177 --> 00:04:28,047
love and enjoy and hopefully find
that others love and enjoy it too.

84
00:04:29,231 --> 00:04:31,831
the creation process, I think
is the most rewarding thing.

85
00:04:31,881 --> 00:04:33,741
you just shipped a video this morning.

86
00:04:33,771 --> 00:04:37,881
little discussion of HashiCorp and
some stuff they're doing over there, I

87
00:04:37,881 --> 00:04:40,631
haven't seen that video yet, but it's
always nice to click publish, because

88
00:04:40,651 --> 00:04:44,331
now you know it's out there and you could
take it back, but you probably won't.

89
00:04:44,331 --> 00:04:45,741
So it's only forever on the internet.

90
00:04:45,741 --> 00:04:46,361
what could go wrong?

91
00:04:46,861 --> 00:04:52,451
I very specifically and purposely
content creation life, which is now

92
00:04:52,751 --> 00:04:56,501
six or seven years, have never really
had strong opinions on my channel.

93
00:04:56,501 --> 00:05:00,671
I focus on showing people the tools and
how to be successful with these tools,

94
00:05:00,971 --> 00:05:06,121
and I very rarely say here is my opinion
on something the video I published today.

95
00:05:07,141 --> 00:05:08,171
where the title is, fuck you.

96
00:05:08,171 --> 00:05:11,051
HashiCorp dash dash dash an IBM company.

97
00:05:11,651 --> 00:05:13,861
That gives you all the context
that you need right off the bat.

98
00:05:14,490 --> 00:05:14,760
Right.

99
00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:14,880
We're

100
00:05:15,021 --> 00:05:18,266
but I, I mean, I have been
burned with this announcement,

101
00:05:18,306 --> 00:05:21,106
of the deprecation and CDK.

102
00:05:21,106 --> 00:05:26,026
So I felt it was time to make it personal
for once which again, I don't rarely do.

103
00:05:26,026 --> 00:05:26,506
So I'm very

104
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:27,080
Yeah.

105
00:05:27,146 --> 00:05:28,116
I hope it is well received.

106
00:05:28,616 --> 00:05:32,256
Well, it'll certainly mean more when
it comes from someone who's not posting

107
00:05:32,256 --> 00:05:34,556
that kind of video daily or ever.

108
00:05:34,902 --> 00:05:36,722
Either that or it's the end
of my career, and I'll have a

109
00:05:36,722 --> 00:05:38,572
full time job by January 26.

110
00:05:38,572 --> 00:05:38,952
Who knows?

111
00:05:39,678 --> 00:05:42,558
I give a lot of opinions, but I don't
tend for them to be negative because I

112
00:05:42,558 --> 00:05:45,868
also know a lot of these people, a lot
of times I'm talking about something

113
00:05:45,868 --> 00:05:49,478
where I know someone that works there
and they're all doing hard work.

114
00:05:49,488 --> 00:05:53,298
It's just the company's overall
decisions impact things, and

115
00:05:53,748 --> 00:05:54,918
it's not individual's fault.

116
00:05:55,238 --> 00:05:59,998
So I tend to hate throwing
shade at companies in my videos.

117
00:06:00,018 --> 00:06:02,678
But yeah, sometimes
it's warranted, I think.

118
00:06:02,928 --> 00:06:06,268
I give my opinion on the sunset of
that project and what the next steps

119
00:06:06,268 --> 00:06:10,428
are for people I am angry with the
whole thing, but not at the individual

120
00:06:10,428 --> 00:06:13,978
developers who are working on Terraform
CDK, or even Terraform or anything else.

121
00:06:13,978 --> 00:06:15,288
The same with the license change, right?

122
00:06:15,288 --> 00:06:17,863
I'm not angry the people
doing the real work.

123
00:06:17,913 --> 00:06:22,283
It's the C suites and the executives
on their yachts with their billions

124
00:06:22,283 --> 00:06:25,393
who just get to sit and make decisions
that affect an entire community

125
00:06:25,423 --> 00:06:27,533
without a face in that community.

126
00:06:27,533 --> 00:06:29,913
So why should I worry
about offending them?

127
00:06:29,943 --> 00:06:31,633
It's kind of my perspective now.

128
00:06:31,693 --> 00:06:32,523
It's like, I'm sorry

129
00:06:32,773 --> 00:06:35,472
you don't have the community's best
interest at heart and I don't have yours.

130
00:06:55,831 --> 00:06:56,951
you're, talking in more detail.

131
00:06:56,951 --> 00:07:01,601
I tend to pay attention to those topics,
but there's so many companies in our

132
00:07:01,651 --> 00:07:05,991
field that it's hard for me to really
keep track of who's in the C suite, you

133
00:07:05,991 --> 00:07:08,481
know, what company's situation is like.

134
00:07:08,881 --> 00:07:10,581
I totally forgot they
were being bought by IBM

135
00:07:10,881 --> 00:07:11,291
you're right.

136
00:07:11,301 --> 00:07:14,071
Sometimes you do forget that, IBM
has swallowed up Red Hat as well.

137
00:07:14,121 --> 00:07:15,481
red Hat is an IBM company now,

138
00:07:16,210 --> 00:07:16,580
Yeah.

139
00:07:16,830 --> 00:07:17,690
and around we go.

140
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,890
I think we're, especially in the AI
space, watching a lot of acquisitions

141
00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:26,380
and it's hard to keep track of
who now is part of who, but today.

142
00:07:26,690 --> 00:07:34,235
I reached out to David because we
have seen attempts before at trying

143
00:07:34,235 --> 00:07:39,045
to take the giant CNCF landscape,
hundreds and hundreds of projects.

144
00:07:39,565 --> 00:07:40,855
are we over a thousand yet?

145
00:07:41,205 --> 00:07:43,665
Like of all the things in
that landscape website?

146
00:07:43,665 --> 00:07:44,295
I'm trying to remember,

147
00:07:44,995 --> 00:07:45,175
is.

148
00:07:45,175 --> 00:07:45,465
Yeah.

149
00:07:46,059 --> 00:07:46,469
yeah.

150
00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:51,689
it's daunting for those of us that
live at full time and if you aren't

151
00:07:52,029 --> 00:07:57,374
wanting to buy a vendor's prescribed
stack They tend to have certain tools

152
00:07:57,374 --> 00:08:00,694
that they either bundle or, work with.

153
00:08:00,704 --> 00:08:02,884
So you kind of get a chosen stack there.

154
00:08:03,374 --> 00:08:06,924
A lot of us that have been teaching and
educating others have been frustrated

155
00:08:06,934 --> 00:08:10,674
since the beginning of all of this, the
number of projects continues to climb.

156
00:08:10,684 --> 00:08:12,754
I don't, there's no sign of stopping.

157
00:08:13,269 --> 00:08:18,019
And, we, occasionally see
projects deprecated or archived.

158
00:08:18,449 --> 00:08:22,739
And even if you thought you were
current a year ago or six months

159
00:08:22,739 --> 00:08:24,119
ago, you're no longer current.

160
00:08:24,129 --> 00:08:26,469
And what's possible
with all of these tools?

161
00:08:26,989 --> 00:08:30,199
And we do, I think, tend sometimes
as engineers to just have this

162
00:08:30,199 --> 00:08:33,389
like candy land approach a
little bit, where we want to,

163
00:08:33,545 --> 00:08:33,935
tuning

164
00:08:33,989 --> 00:08:36,179
oh man, this exists, so I
must check it out and go,

165
00:08:36,190 --> 00:08:36,580
support

166
00:08:36,619 --> 00:08:37,829
I might need to put this in my cluster.

167
00:08:37,829 --> 00:08:38,099
Right.

168
00:08:38,109 --> 00:08:38,849
And I think

169
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:39,350
reach

170
00:08:39,379 --> 00:08:40,479
I'm going to guess you're one of those

171
00:08:40,690 --> 00:08:41,080
my

172
00:08:41,089 --> 00:08:41,359
that

173
00:08:41,470 --> 00:08:41,860
at

174
00:08:42,019 --> 00:08:45,559
years it's been more of
a less is more approach.

175
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,150
year.

176
00:08:46,150 --> 00:08:46,540
very

177
00:08:46,649 --> 00:08:50,269
you put out your opinionated
Kubernetes stack.

178
00:08:50,709 --> 00:08:54,089
tell me about that, like the original
inset, like why did you want to

179
00:08:54,089 --> 00:08:56,949
do this in such a, detailed way?

180
00:08:56,979 --> 00:09:00,529
it was more than just a single post that
says, here's a list of tools I recommend.

181
00:09:00,829 --> 00:09:03,879
I think you and I have something in common
and, that we talk a lot, we talk to a lot

182
00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:07,929
of people, when we go to conferences where
we're in discards, whether we're on social

183
00:09:07,929 --> 00:09:11,719
media, a lot of people
value our opinions on stuff.

184
00:09:11,749 --> 00:09:14,439
as a result of that, you know, I have
a public office I always think we're

185
00:09:14,439 --> 00:09:17,749
people big time and they just want to
talk about what they should be learning.

186
00:09:18,089 --> 00:09:19,389
What's their next step in their career?

187
00:09:19,539 --> 00:09:21,189
What tools should they
be paying attention to?

188
00:09:21,569 --> 00:09:25,859
When I go to conferences, it's the same
again there It's okay, I be using Loki?

189
00:09:25,869 --> 00:09:26,719
Should I be using Meemer?

190
00:09:26,719 --> 00:09:27,759
Should I be using Cortex?

191
00:09:27,759 --> 00:09:29,589
Like what does my
observability stack looks like?

192
00:09:29,589 --> 00:09:30,969
What does my security stack look like?

193
00:09:31,409 --> 00:09:35,459
These are questions people have,
because the CNCF and the cloud

194
00:09:35,489 --> 00:09:36,689
native landscape make a lot of money.

195
00:09:36,689 --> 00:09:39,569
They attract a lot of companies who
build products that solve problems.

196
00:09:39,839 --> 00:09:40,849
there's a lot of competition.

197
00:09:41,349 --> 00:09:44,309
I used to send people to the
CNCF landscape document before

198
00:09:44,349 --> 00:09:45,879
it got to what it is now.

199
00:09:46,639 --> 00:09:49,629
But it doesn't really make
sense if you send someone to it.

200
00:09:49,689 --> 00:09:53,379
There is just boxes and boxes
and boxes of decision fatigue.

201
00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:56,569
not like you go there and you go,
oh, well how, about application

202
00:09:56,569 --> 00:09:58,289
delivery components should I use?

203
00:09:58,299 --> 00:09:59,989
Because you get presented 30 options.

204
00:10:00,039 --> 00:10:03,419
How do you make that decision of
which one is right for me and my team?

205
00:10:04,339 --> 00:10:05,789
I decided there had to be a better way.

206
00:10:05,819 --> 00:10:06,609
I realized.

207
00:10:08,334 --> 00:10:11,694
for the best part of, I think
nearly 20 years, 15 years, been

208
00:10:11,694 --> 00:10:12,814
putting out their tech radar.

209
00:10:12,954 --> 00:10:17,714
And I used to use this all the time back
in 2013 to 2015 when I was, director

210
00:10:17,714 --> 00:10:19,154
of development for a software company.

211
00:10:19,494 --> 00:10:22,004
I wanted to know they were doing the
hard work, researching, kicking the

212
00:10:22,014 --> 00:10:23,974
tires, doing all the, syncing with salt.

213
00:10:24,003 --> 00:10:24,283
Right.

214
00:10:24,724 --> 00:10:28,814
So I trusted them for that opinion, but
I realized that they're not really in

215
00:10:28,814 --> 00:10:31,874
a position to cover something that's
as broad or as specific that I want.

216
00:10:31,884 --> 00:10:34,824
And I know I use broad and specific at
the same time, but Kubernetes, Cloud

217
00:10:34,824 --> 00:10:36,514
native is broad, but it's also a niche,

218
00:10:36,564 --> 00:10:36,814
Yep.

219
00:10:36,944 --> 00:10:38,214
tech radar, like ThoughtWorks?

220
00:10:38,714 --> 00:10:39,994
And then I tried to copy it.

221
00:10:40,064 --> 00:10:41,644
Not the code, but the idea.

222
00:10:41,644 --> 00:10:43,574
And I was like, okay, here's my quadrants.

223
00:10:43,574 --> 00:10:44,907
And I was like, this has to be simpler.

224
00:10:44,907 --> 00:10:48,217
So I sat down with my good friend
Claude, and my good friend ChatGPT

225
00:10:48,217 --> 00:10:51,097
and my other friend, Gemini I
had a conversation for days.

226
00:10:51,387 --> 00:10:55,957
This, discussion was massive, it was
like, what do I care about in this space?

227
00:10:55,997 --> 00:10:57,327
What decisions am I making?

228
00:10:57,327 --> 00:10:59,917
If I were going to build a stack
tomorrow, what would that look like?

229
00:10:59,927 --> 00:11:01,087
What are the trade offs that I make?

230
00:11:01,627 --> 00:11:03,927
And eventually I got to the point where
these discussions really hit home.

231
00:11:04,807 --> 00:11:07,957
are the properties of a project
that are important to me.

232
00:11:08,807 --> 00:11:10,677
Here's why they're important to me.

233
00:11:10,697 --> 00:11:15,037
I made, a database of the things that
are important with the technologies

234
00:11:15,307 --> 00:11:16,467
and then grouped them together.

235
00:11:17,007 --> 00:11:20,727
I didn't want to deviate too much
from the CNCF landscape because

236
00:11:20,727 --> 00:11:22,257
there is a lot of information there.

237
00:11:22,567 --> 00:11:25,847
The only thing that's really
missing is that opinionated piece.

238
00:11:25,977 --> 00:11:27,547
Why should someone adopt FluxDV?

239
00:11:28,302 --> 00:11:31,142
over Argo CD that is not on the landscape?

240
00:11:31,142 --> 00:11:34,632
It will never be on the landscape
because the CNCF is Switzerland, right?

241
00:11:34,642 --> 00:11:36,782
They are there to home these projects.

242
00:11:36,782 --> 00:11:38,532
They're not there to tell
people how to do anything.

243
00:11:39,032 --> 00:11:40,322
And that was kind of the start of it.

244
00:11:40,372 --> 00:11:43,812
I called it the tech matrix because
it is a matrix and that we have,

245
00:11:43,862 --> 00:11:47,772
different criteria and groupings and
everything that we need to balance

246
00:11:47,892 --> 00:11:50,702
two projects against each other,
or two segments against each other.

247
00:11:51,332 --> 00:11:53,162
that was really the start of it.

248
00:11:53,532 --> 00:11:56,272
I was also in a very fortunate
position where the Rockwood Academy,

249
00:11:56,952 --> 00:11:59,152
you know, I've done over 400.

250
00:11:59,852 --> 00:12:03,852
300 videos now, covering a
lot of these technologies.

251
00:12:03,852 --> 00:12:06,042
I already had some of the
database just sat there in

252
00:12:06,042 --> 00:12:07,622
YAML file in a Git repository.

253
00:12:07,622 --> 00:12:09,732
I just had to enrich it
with some more information

254
00:12:10,102 --> 00:12:12,972
and then add my flavor
to each of them as well.

255
00:12:13,022 --> 00:12:16,842
And then sitting down with my good
friends, Claude, gemini and I and

256
00:12:17,062 --> 00:12:19,702
ChatGPT, I was like, here's my idea.

257
00:12:19,752 --> 00:12:25,312
Let's build it into the website
Voila, we, got the tech matrix, and

258
00:12:25,312 --> 00:12:26,772
we can go through it in more detail.

259
00:12:26,772 --> 00:12:30,982
I can talk about how some of the decisions
were made and my opinionated stack, but

260
00:12:31,222 --> 00:12:35,412
the whole point of it is I can update
this matrix whenever I want, my opinion

261
00:12:35,412 --> 00:12:40,262
changes, as new technologies come out
just give people a little bit of guidance.

262
00:12:40,652 --> 00:12:43,742
the opinions that are here should you
be paying attention to our technology.

263
00:12:43,892 --> 00:12:47,502
And I break it down into should you be
just keeping an eye on this technology?

264
00:12:47,702 --> 00:12:49,762
Should you be exploring
it and kicking the tires?

265
00:12:49,792 --> 00:12:52,722
Should you be actively learning
this because it will be a

266
00:12:52,722 --> 00:12:54,582
net positive on your career.

267
00:12:55,282 --> 00:12:59,722
Then into the more of the team dynamic,
is this safe for me to adopt with my team?

268
00:13:00,357 --> 00:13:04,467
And lastly, the advocate, do I
specifically say this is the one

269
00:13:04,497 --> 00:13:07,787
technology that everyone should be using,
and if you're not, you're doing it wrong.

270
00:13:08,147 --> 00:13:10,967
That is kind of where I went with
the matrix, right down to that.

271
00:13:11,357 --> 00:13:13,747
You need to use these tools
if you are serious about

272
00:13:13,747 --> 00:13:16,157
platform and Kubernetes in 2026.

273
00:13:16,657 --> 00:13:22,007
So would you say this is a good
resource, for someone getting started?

274
00:13:22,107 --> 00:13:25,837
is this meant for people that are
sort of, do you come at it from like

275
00:13:25,837 --> 00:13:29,867
a problem fixed perspective of like,
I'm thinking about service mesh.

276
00:13:29,907 --> 00:13:32,077
Let me see what David has
to say about service mesh.

277
00:13:32,107 --> 00:13:32,857
is it more like that

278
00:13:33,107 --> 00:13:35,517
So it's multifaceted, right?

279
00:13:35,527 --> 00:13:39,377
If you are new to cloud, native to DevOps,
to platform engineering, to observability,

280
00:13:39,377 --> 00:13:43,117
any of these things, Any of these niches
within the niche, you can go to the tech

281
00:13:43,117 --> 00:13:47,997
matrix and I will give you an opinionated
handful of technologies that you should

282
00:13:48,007 --> 00:13:49,897
be watching, exploring and learning.

283
00:13:50,337 --> 00:13:54,192
And if you stick to that, I hope you
will get enough value to make the

284
00:13:54,192 --> 00:13:57,092
next 12 months of your career come
by in six months, We're trying to

285
00:13:57,292 --> 00:13:59,172
cut down that mean time to progress.

286
00:13:59,862 --> 00:14:02,562
very difficult for someone coming
into Cloud Native to take a

287
00:14:02,562 --> 00:14:04,542
look at that landscape and know
what technologies to play with.

288
00:14:04,552 --> 00:14:07,862
Should they invest six weeks
learning flux and then go spend

289
00:14:07,862 --> 00:14:10,382
another six weeks learning Argo
and building their own opinions,

290
00:14:10,382 --> 00:14:12,322
I want to speed that up for them.

291
00:14:12,372 --> 00:14:12,642
Yeah.

292
00:14:12,804 --> 00:14:16,084
If you learn that, you learn everything
that you need to learn, and I don't want

293
00:14:16,084 --> 00:14:18,914
to say anything bad about Argo, but it's
just not a tool I'm ever going to use.

294
00:14:19,354 --> 00:14:21,394
So I'm not going to tell
other people to use it either.

295
00:14:21,684 --> 00:14:23,894
it's safe to adopt, but I
would never encourage it.

296
00:14:25,614 --> 00:14:30,414
If you are a team or you've already been
doing Kubernetes for 7 years, you still

297
00:14:30,414 --> 00:14:32,654
need to keep up to date with, the changes.

298
00:14:32,909 --> 00:14:37,449
my tech matrix is still valuable
because as technologies are announced,

299
00:14:37,459 --> 00:14:40,959
as they are released, as they are
evolving, you can just subscribe

300
00:14:40,959 --> 00:14:42,199
to a technology and get updates.

301
00:14:42,199 --> 00:14:46,209
on has it moved from my kick the
tires explorer into my learn phase?

302
00:14:46,229 --> 00:14:49,539
Have I now decided to start
adopting it and advocating it?

303
00:14:49,869 --> 00:14:52,539
you can just get the alerts for the
things that are important to you.

304
00:14:52,539 --> 00:14:54,999
You can just get alerts on get
ups if you want, or you can just

305
00:14:54,999 --> 00:14:56,709
scroll very niche into Flux cd.

306
00:14:57,059 --> 00:15:00,224
the way that you consume it is going to
be different from person to person, but it

307
00:15:00,224 --> 00:15:01,894
depends on what you want to get out of it.

308
00:15:02,324 --> 00:15:05,994
I hope that I've structured it
and composed it in the right way

309
00:15:05,994 --> 00:15:08,994
where you can just get what you
want from it without the noise.

310
00:15:09,024 --> 00:15:10,354
that is the problem of the landscape.

311
00:15:10,594 --> 00:15:13,684
It comes one way, the noisy
way, and it's very difficult to

312
00:15:13,684 --> 00:15:15,484
get the signal out sometimes.

313
00:15:15,589 --> 00:15:15,859
Alright,

314
00:15:15,943 --> 00:15:16,486
have

315
00:15:16,489 --> 00:15:17,179
definitely,

316
00:15:17,522 --> 00:15:18,607
And that's

317
00:15:18,816 --> 00:15:19,456
you're right.

318
00:15:19,456 --> 00:15:22,406
I'm now thinking about my
own use of, the landscape

319
00:15:22,406 --> 00:15:22,949
it.

320
00:15:23,056 --> 00:15:24,126
website and

321
00:15:24,862 --> 00:15:26,892
not something I send people to anymore.

322
00:15:27,043 --> 00:15:27,586
week.

323
00:15:27,772 --> 00:15:32,012
it hasn't been that way for years To
me, it feels like it's only there for

324
00:15:32,012 --> 00:15:35,852
people who are in the CNCF and are who
are aware of a lot of the projects and

325
00:15:35,852 --> 00:15:39,982
are looking for what's new, browsing
through some of the categories and

326
00:15:40,392 --> 00:15:42,262
identifying what we don't know about yet.

327
00:15:42,272 --> 00:15:46,922
But that's a far cry from
implementation or a decision on product.

328
00:15:46,932 --> 00:15:50,652
And, especially when we start talking
about platform engineering stacks,

329
00:15:51,002 --> 00:15:52,682
there's a lot of expectation in what's.

330
00:15:53,322 --> 00:15:56,152
What features exist in that stack
versus someone's just saying,

331
00:15:56,172 --> 00:15:57,722
I, need to deploy Kubernetes.

332
00:15:58,302 --> 00:16:01,992
And that there's a lot, I feel like
there's a lot more minimum decision

333
00:16:01,992 --> 00:16:06,762
amount for a platform engineering
stack, I feel like is, a much higher

334
00:16:06,762 --> 00:16:10,342
bar than I've got a working Kubernetes
cluster that's in production.

335
00:16:11,802 --> 00:16:13,742
so why don't we go through some of it.

336
00:16:13,742 --> 00:16:15,512
I'd love to, get some of your thoughts.

337
00:16:15,797 --> 00:16:19,617
we can read them on the website, but
I'd love to discuss some of them for our

338
00:16:19,627 --> 00:16:22,277
podcast audience and get some of your

339
00:16:22,628 --> 00:16:23,168
if you don't mind.

340
00:16:23,847 --> 00:16:24,157
let's do it.

341
00:16:24,268 --> 00:16:25,258
we'll do an experiment, right?

342
00:16:25,258 --> 00:16:28,728
Let's go to the, landscape, and
assume we want to decide which

343
00:16:28,728 --> 00:16:30,338
service mesh we should adopt.

344
00:16:30,648 --> 00:16:31,098
All right?

345
00:16:31,208 --> 00:16:34,278
So we come here and we're like,
okay, we're looking at projects

346
00:16:34,318 --> 00:16:35,708
and products, side by side.

347
00:16:36,588 --> 00:16:40,078
We need to find where service
mesh is, or networking,

348
00:16:40,078 --> 00:16:41,418
depending on how it's structured.

349
00:16:41,828 --> 00:16:44,138
we see we've got a service mesh
section here, so we can group in.

350
00:16:44,638 --> 00:16:47,708
Now we do see Istio and Linkerd
because they're graduated projects and

351
00:16:47,728 --> 00:16:49,768
everything else is a paid for product.

352
00:16:50,238 --> 00:16:55,368
There are no opinions here to tell you
whether you should use Istio over Linkerd.

353
00:16:56,143 --> 00:16:56,743
right now.

354
00:16:56,793 --> 00:16:59,923
STL for a start says simplify
observability traffic managed security

355
00:16:59,923 --> 00:17:01,293
policy with the STL service mesh.

356
00:17:01,703 --> 00:17:04,103
STL simplifies nothing, that is just.

357
00:17:05,023 --> 00:17:07,393
Wrong, can see how many
GitHub stars it's got.

358
00:17:07,413 --> 00:17:08,233
What does that tell me?

359
00:17:08,233 --> 00:17:09,553
Well, not really much.

360
00:17:10,233 --> 00:17:13,123
then we've got Linkerd, which is
drastically less GitHub stars,

361
00:17:13,123 --> 00:17:16,643
which I think is, an absolute train,
but it is an ultra light, ultra

362
00:17:16,643 --> 00:17:18,273
simple, ultra powerful service.

363
00:17:18,273 --> 00:17:18,493
mesh.

364
00:17:18,513 --> 00:17:19,233
I would agree with that.

365
00:17:19,873 --> 00:17:20,853
I'm a fan of Linkerd.

366
00:17:20,863 --> 00:17:22,203
I'm always going to side with Linkerd.

367
00:17:22,933 --> 00:17:24,253
then we've got all
these paid for products.

368
00:17:24,253 --> 00:17:26,113
when should I build or buy?

369
00:17:26,143 --> 00:17:29,073
When should I own my own service mesh and
when should I pay someone else to maintain

370
00:17:29,073 --> 00:17:30,943
it for me that isn't really covered.

371
00:17:31,383 --> 00:17:31,653
Yeah.

372
00:17:31,890 --> 00:17:34,750
It's valuable for a content creator,
right, where you want to come and see what

373
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,600
random technology will I cover this week?

374
00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:39,220
You know, close your eyes and move
them out and see what you get.

375
00:17:39,230 --> 00:17:39,800
But from

376
00:17:40,478 --> 00:17:42,138
for joining us today.

377
00:17:42,138 --> 00:17:46,702
Please make sure to sign in and
have your registration information.

378
00:17:46,702 --> 00:17:51,585
We've got a lot to be
doing So I'm going to go

379
00:17:51,835 --> 00:17:56,325
We have all of the technologies that
I've ever covered or ever had any opinion

380
00:17:56,325 --> 00:17:58,565
on within the cloud native landscape.

381
00:17:59,535 --> 00:18:03,345
I tried to make it very obvious
what these categories are so you

382
00:18:03,345 --> 00:18:05,100
can expand how to read the matrix.

383
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,450
I explain what watch, explore, and learn
are, those are the most important ones.

384
00:18:19,011 --> 00:18:35,402
right

385
00:18:35,414 --> 00:18:38,484
very easy just to come here
and get what is my stack.

386
00:18:38,514 --> 00:18:40,004
It's everything in this column.

387
00:18:40,214 --> 00:18:41,664
There's no other decisions to be made.

388
00:18:42,164 --> 00:18:48,184
The adopt is a bit broader, and that's
because I made the decision that CNCF

389
00:18:48,214 --> 00:18:53,084
graduated project, it is probably safe
for any organization, no matter how

390
00:18:53,134 --> 00:18:54,324
big or small in the world to adopt.

391
00:18:54,804 --> 00:18:58,218
I am confident that CNCF will
keep that project, active and

392
00:18:58,218 --> 00:18:59,988
maintained for as long as they can.

393
00:19:00,591 --> 00:19:04,705
I have never seen them sunset or
graveyard, any project that has ever

394
00:19:04,705 --> 00:19:07,151
been graduated, I could be wrong, but
I don't think that has ever happened.

395
00:19:07,412 --> 00:19:10,122
They put a lot more effort into trying
to save it if it got into trouble.

396
00:19:10,752 --> 00:19:11,262
I imagine.

397
00:19:11,413 --> 00:19:11,753
Well, yeah.

398
00:19:11,753 --> 00:19:13,583
Plus the conditions to graduate, right?

399
00:19:13,593 --> 00:19:15,273
You can't be a single vendor project.

400
00:19:15,323 --> 00:19:17,883
There has to be multiple people
that are actively invested in

401
00:19:17,883 --> 00:19:19,313
making that a successful project.

402
00:19:19,323 --> 00:19:21,983
So, you know, the likelihood
of one company going bankrupt.

403
00:19:22,993 --> 00:19:24,343
50 50 probably worse.

404
00:19:25,113 --> 00:19:28,473
multiple, within a single thing,
I think it should be safe.

405
00:19:28,973 --> 00:19:30,707
So where do Do you wanna
start in my graveyard?

406
00:19:30,767 --> 00:19:31,997
Do you wanna start on my watch list?

407
00:19:31,997 --> 00:19:34,967
Do you wanna start with what I'm
advocating my opinionated guide to

408
00:19:34,997 --> 00:19:36,287
platform engineering Kubernetes.

409
00:19:36,287 --> 00:19:37,457
What would you like to learn?

410
00:19:37,957 --> 00:19:38,337
Yeah.

411
00:19:38,337 --> 00:19:42,931
So, for the audio audience, I'm going to
mention the numbers at the top, the live

412
00:19:42,931 --> 00:19:47,821
totals where it says skip, watch, explore
at the very top are those your totals

413
00:19:48,321 --> 00:19:50,546
Yeah, so I mean, I

414
00:19:50,659 --> 00:19:53,119
For the audio audience, I wanted to
mention you've actually gone through

415
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,416
and deselected essentially 169.

416
00:19:57,416 --> 00:19:58,002
projects,

417
00:19:58,052 --> 00:19:58,272
Yeah,

418
00:19:58,431 --> 00:20:00,541
that's 169 CNCF projects Correct.

419
00:20:01,041 --> 00:20:05,971
so in total we had 320 projects
that I have stored data on in the

420
00:20:06,031 --> 00:20:08,761
Rockwood Academy, 169 of them.

421
00:20:08,781 --> 00:20:13,230
I have put straight into Skip Technologies
that I am not, really interested in,

422
00:20:13,730 --> 00:20:17,520
doesn't mean they're not useful, doesn't
mean you can't be interested in them.

423
00:20:17,850 --> 00:20:21,220
These are personally things that I
do not give two hoots about because

424
00:20:21,220 --> 00:20:25,200
they do not fit in to my stack or
my production or anything else.

425
00:20:25,490 --> 00:20:28,480
doesn't mean they're not good, I have
already made my opinions on observability.

426
00:20:28,481 --> 00:20:30,310
Thanos is a great project.

427
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,020
But I'm just not interested in that.

428
00:20:32,220 --> 00:20:37,220
So it's in Skip, we've got
Holmes, GPT, just not interested

429
00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:38,430
in bringing AI into my cluster.

430
00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:39,830
I use AI everywhere else.

431
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:41,310
I do not want it in my cluster.

432
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,500
bank Vaults, Aqua
Project, ClusterNet, Dex.

433
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,700
I mean, I know some of these and some
of them are just not, if someone were to

434
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:52,370
click on it and say Go check, oh, OpenTofu
is going to move, that's, a no brainer.

435
00:20:52,550 --> 00:20:52,750
Yeah,

436
00:20:53,047 --> 00:20:54,377
because I was always Team Terraform.

437
00:20:54,377 --> 00:20:56,927
motivations change right,
right, right, right.

438
00:20:57,613 --> 00:21:01,423
So I get to update this and people
can follow along with my Stack It

439
00:21:01,423 --> 00:21:03,023
doesn't mean anything in Skip is bad.

440
00:21:03,033 --> 00:21:04,593
It just means I haven't got around to it.

441
00:21:04,633 --> 00:21:07,463
It's not for me right now,
or I don't have a use case.

442
00:21:08,127 --> 00:21:08,507
Yeah.

443
00:21:08,773 --> 00:21:11,313
I wish I could be in a position where
I could add opinions on everything,

444
00:21:11,813 --> 00:21:13,773
but again, that is a risky game.

445
00:21:13,773 --> 00:21:15,603
This is a volatile ecosystem.

446
00:21:15,853 --> 00:21:17,723
I've always felt, for me it's
always felt like a little bit

447
00:21:17,723 --> 00:21:18,743
of like, stay in your lane.

448
00:21:18,803 --> 00:21:22,603
there's different areas where I'm
like, you can have opinions, but they

449
00:21:22,603 --> 00:21:27,768
would not be based on full production
experience and knowledge of running

450
00:21:27,768 --> 00:21:29,458
clusters long term with these products.

451
00:21:29,508 --> 00:21:32,278
I'd hate to have opinions when I
have a cursory knowledge or I've

452
00:21:32,278 --> 00:21:34,568
done a sample install in my closet.

453
00:21:34,598 --> 00:21:36,478
that's not enough for me to
feel like I have an opinion.

454
00:21:36,788 --> 00:21:38,338
You also have graveyard on the other end.

455
00:21:38,582 --> 00:21:38,792
Yeah.

456
00:21:38,792 --> 00:21:42,708
So the graveyard, is projects that
are either abandoned, so people should

457
00:21:42,708 --> 00:21:43,958
just get a warning not to use this.

458
00:21:44,028 --> 00:21:46,148
I'm going to have to add
Terraform, CDK to it today.

459
00:21:46,648 --> 00:21:48,038
or projects that have burned me.

460
00:21:48,408 --> 00:21:51,048
and I feel bad by that, but
you know, sometimes a project

461
00:21:51,158 --> 00:21:53,298
is just, shouldn't adopt it.

462
00:21:53,298 --> 00:21:58,228
And I'm just graveyarding it so people
know, SaltStack, is not a dead project,

463
00:21:58,778 --> 00:22:02,018
but it was bought by VMware then
Deprioritized and now that it's Broadcom.

464
00:22:02,933 --> 00:22:08,013
I think you would be absolutely, crazy
to adopt SaltStack in 2026, but you

465
00:22:08,122 --> 00:22:09,312
I was a fan a decade ago.

466
00:22:09,562 --> 00:22:12,792
It was, my go to over
puppet, Ansible, everything.

467
00:22:12,842 --> 00:22:15,702
I feel, very disappointed that
it's not my go to anymore.

468
00:22:16,482 --> 00:22:19,202
And I felt bad about putting
cadence here because it literally

469
00:22:19,202 --> 00:22:20,772
just got moved to the CNCF.

470
00:22:21,772 --> 00:22:26,012
that worked on cadence went to Temporal
and Cadence was deprioritized by Uber

471
00:22:26,072 --> 00:22:29,202
this was their last chance to try
and save the project by donating it.

472
00:22:29,862 --> 00:22:32,892
I just don't see anyone actively
contributing or using it.

473
00:22:32,932 --> 00:22:36,432
maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think
anyone picking that today over anything

474
00:22:36,432 --> 00:22:38,632
else, is making a very naive mistake.

475
00:22:39,382 --> 00:22:41,772
the graveyard is just there
as a, you know, make sure

476
00:22:41,772 --> 00:22:42,832
your projects aren't in it.

477
00:22:43,002 --> 00:22:47,582
And the nice thing is, you can come here,
and if we go to advanced mode, for the,

478
00:22:48,492 --> 00:22:52,102
audience, it gives you search and the
ability to group and slice and dice.

479
00:22:52,872 --> 00:22:56,142
you can just search, cadence won't
show up because it's graveyard.

480
00:22:56,392 --> 00:22:58,922
is the NGINX Kubernetes project?

481
00:22:59,422 --> 00:23:00,252
Controller

482
00:23:00,363 --> 00:23:00,883
I don't think

483
00:23:01,172 --> 00:23:01,662
in there.

484
00:23:01,813 --> 00:23:03,883
The only one I've got is Emissary on Skip.

485
00:23:03,903 --> 00:23:06,143
the ngres controller did
not make the cut, but I

486
00:23:06,143 --> 00:23:07,483
guess I should add it to graveyard.

487
00:23:07,533 --> 00:23:07,993
I was.

488
00:23:08,464 --> 00:23:10,924
I do have to try and keep
on top of this now as well.

489
00:23:10,974 --> 00:23:12,084
It's going to keep you sharp.

490
00:23:12,084 --> 00:23:13,144
It's going to keep you sharp.

491
00:23:13,644 --> 00:23:17,194
Is this a open source repo where
people can help you make corrections

492
00:23:17,194 --> 00:23:20,014
or is it, I guess this isn't really
corrections, it's more like your opinion.

493
00:23:20,014 --> 00:23:22,584
So how could other people
help you with that?

494
00:23:22,634 --> 00:23:23,284
That's a great point.

495
00:23:23,324 --> 00:23:26,444
So, we're on the GitHub repository
for the Rockwood Academy.

496
00:23:26,454 --> 00:23:28,334
There is this wonderful content folder.

497
00:23:29,159 --> 00:23:32,939
And you can go to technologies and
every technology is in here, If we just

498
00:23:32,939 --> 00:23:38,009
grab, let's use salt, we'll just pick on
salt today, you can open the MDX file.

499
00:23:38,059 --> 00:23:40,209
as you just marked it
with, a YAML front matter.

500
00:23:40,679 --> 00:23:42,829
It's very easy for anyone
to come and change this.

501
00:23:42,829 --> 00:23:46,349
If you need to update the, logo for
whatever reason, you can do that.

502
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:49,489
we have a matrix graveyard
here, and this is where I can

503
00:23:49,489 --> 00:23:51,029
store my opinions under matrix.

504
00:23:51,389 --> 00:23:55,359
But one of the things I would love to do
sooner rather than later, like before the

505
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,629
end of the year, is to just allow other
people to come and put their opinions

506
00:23:58,629 --> 00:24:02,539
here so that you can actually click on a
face and it's like, what's david stack?

507
00:24:02,549 --> 00:24:03,599
What's brett stack?

508
00:24:03,799 --> 00:24:04,559
You know, what's X

509
00:24:04,559 --> 00:24:08,419
y stack And just make
it this community driven

510
00:24:08,479 --> 00:24:09,709
Stack

511
00:24:09,913 --> 00:24:10,323
Yeah.

512
00:24:10,839 --> 00:24:14,229
tool because my opinion, is
my opinion and it's my path.

513
00:24:14,489 --> 00:24:16,439
And I hope other people find that useful.

514
00:24:17,239 --> 00:24:18,379
we should have everyone's opinion.

515
00:24:18,439 --> 00:24:20,619
Anyone who wants to contribute their
opinion should be able to do that.

516
00:24:21,309 --> 00:24:23,399
the reason I didn't launch with
that is how do we allow this

517
00:24:23,409 --> 00:24:26,319
to visualize if it grew beyond
four or five people's opinions?

518
00:24:26,669 --> 00:24:28,639
Does it start to devalue the, matrix?

519
00:24:28,858 --> 00:24:29,718
I need to work that out.

520
00:24:29,788 --> 00:24:32,983
So there's a lot of things I would
love to do, but, getting more opinions

521
00:24:32,983 --> 00:24:34,733
into it, and it is all open source.

522
00:24:34,863 --> 00:24:36,043
People can come and contribute.

523
00:24:36,143 --> 00:24:38,743
so lots of things on my mind
about how to push that forward.

524
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,520
Yeah, it feels like one of those things
where you could spend 40 hours a week,

525
00:24:42,660 --> 00:24:46,760
on this, Cause I'm sitting here thinking,
yeah, you could probably make that it

526
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,885
shows opinions on the project I'm like,
I'm already trying to work out your

527
00:24:49,885 --> 00:24:52,705
exact, your actual ui ux about that.

528
00:24:52,915 --> 00:24:53,995
Let's get everybody's opinion.

529
00:24:53,995 --> 00:24:54,545
Let's bring them on in.

530
00:24:54,545 --> 00:24:56,865
But, but let's not elevate
everyone's opinion.

531
00:24:57,055 --> 00:24:58,635
let's elevate certain voices.

532
00:24:58,635 --> 00:25:02,375
Maybe if they've opinionated on five
projects, they somehow get to a different

533
00:25:02,375 --> 00:25:05,045
tier there's a lot you could do with
that, we know about all these product

534
00:25:05,045 --> 00:25:06,605
review websites on the internet that suck.

535
00:25:06,605 --> 00:25:10,215
They all these, G2, there's all these
things that I find on the internet that

536
00:25:10,215 --> 00:25:13,155
are like, well, we have user opinions
and we think this is better than that.

537
00:25:13,455 --> 00:25:16,675
I might be comparing like, you
know, Excel to Google Sheets

538
00:25:16,675 --> 00:25:17,355
or something, I don't know.

539
00:25:17,785 --> 00:25:22,295
But those websites always felt
suspect to me and lacked genuine,

540
00:25:22,335 --> 00:25:23,755
like, who is saying all this?

541
00:25:24,095 --> 00:25:29,015
it does feel like a cool idea to
see opinions of different projects.

542
00:25:29,215 --> 00:25:33,725
It would be interesting to even some of
those opinions could link, is it possible

543
00:25:33,725 --> 00:25:36,625
to add other people's opinions that
they have put out publicly if someone's

544
00:25:36,625 --> 00:25:41,105
wrote a blog post about it in the past
where they've had an opinion on, like

545
00:25:41,715 --> 00:25:47,425
for me it's the classic Argo versus flux
discussion around which tool or both.

546
00:25:47,765 --> 00:25:50,735
in that case it's I'm sure there's
a lot of opinions on both sides.

547
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,140
There's probably a very few amount of
people that have actually used both.

548
00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:56,510
so that would be cool to see
their opinions or to have

549
00:25:56,510 --> 00:25:58,190
links to their blog posts.

550
00:25:58,190 --> 00:26:02,260
But yeah, this is the kind of thing where
there is no end, there's no end for you.

551
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:04,090
No, there definitely is not.

552
00:26:04,290 --> 00:26:07,120
But, find ways to bring in more opinions.

553
00:26:07,150 --> 00:26:10,200
It could even be that if you're just
on the Academy website, it pops up

554
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,590
and you pick between two technologies.

555
00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:14,770
We can still collect information
that is valuable to people,

556
00:26:14,770 --> 00:26:17,200
We can still build up
community scores for stuff.

557
00:26:17,250 --> 00:26:19,690
lots of ideas and I'll push that forward.

558
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:20,790
Yeah.

559
00:26:21,226 --> 00:26:23,786
there's 169 skips, there's
14 in the graveyard.

560
00:26:23,836 --> 00:26:26,776
So, I've been working very
explicitly 14 of these technologies.

561
00:26:26,806 --> 00:26:30,746
And then the rest of them are on
that gradient of be keeping an eye

562
00:26:30,746 --> 00:26:33,686
on this one until you should start
actively learning this technology.

563
00:26:34,186 --> 00:26:34,506
Yeah.

564
00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:38,276
for the audio audience, can we run
real quick through the advocate?

565
00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:41,896
The 14 and just list them for
the audience so they know of

566
00:26:41,896 --> 00:26:43,266
these are, the heavy hitters.

567
00:26:43,706 --> 00:26:46,506
everybody should be at least
a little curious about it.

568
00:26:46,716 --> 00:26:48,546
Is that how you're
approaching it for teams?

569
00:26:48,686 --> 00:26:50,316
It, doesn't mean they
have to implement it.

570
00:26:50,326 --> 00:26:53,996
It's not like a foundational technology
that they would always, you're not

571
00:26:53,996 --> 00:26:57,206
saying this is required, you're
just saying I'm a huge fan of this.

572
00:26:57,476 --> 00:26:58,396
I'm a huge fan.

573
00:26:58,426 --> 00:27:02,316
I would never build a production
platform without, these tools.

574
00:27:02,316 --> 00:27:02,896
This is what

575
00:27:03,010 --> 00:27:03,460
Oh, okay.

576
00:27:03,535 --> 00:27:06,406
for joining us today.

577
00:27:06,406 --> 00:27:13,585
we hope you have a great rest of your day.

578
00:27:13,585 --> 00:27:17,174
We'll see you next time.

579
00:27:17,174 --> 00:27:18,610
Take care.

580
00:27:18,791 --> 00:27:19,921
you need a common format.

581
00:27:19,921 --> 00:27:21,691
And cloud events is just so simple.

582
00:27:21,691 --> 00:27:22,471
It's just a spec.

583
00:27:22,481 --> 00:27:24,701
They have implementations
for serialization across

584
00:27:24,711 --> 00:27:25,881
all different languages.

585
00:27:26,301 --> 00:27:30,121
if you have any sort of semantic
data that travels over a network just

586
00:27:30,121 --> 00:27:31,621
wrap it in a cloud events envelope.

587
00:27:31,661 --> 00:27:32,651
It doesn't matter who you are.

588
00:27:32,851 --> 00:27:35,831
everyone should have it in their
NPM, go dependencies, REST, Cargos,

589
00:27:37,161 --> 00:27:39,931
It's one of those understated,
underutilized technologies that

590
00:27:39,931 --> 00:27:43,681
saves a lot of downtime, bugs,
regressions, So yeah, amazing project.

591
00:27:44,551 --> 00:27:46,521
I'm a huge fan of CUE.

592
00:27:46,591 --> 00:27:49,461
I literally just published a
video on it two days ago for,

593
00:27:49,761 --> 00:27:51,131
making GitHub Actions easier.

594
00:27:51,461 --> 00:27:54,041
I use CUE across my entire monorepository.

595
00:27:54,411 --> 00:27:57,861
I even released a tool called QNV,
QENV, whatever you want to call it.

596
00:27:58,301 --> 00:28:03,941
last week to replace my, disparate
tools of Justfiles, Bazels, CI

597
00:28:03,951 --> 00:28:06,251
CD pipelines, Dart env, configs.

598
00:28:06,271 --> 00:28:08,111
All of it is now solved by one tool.

599
00:28:08,451 --> 00:28:09,111
powered by CUE.

600
00:28:09,221 --> 00:28:09,771
very, very cool.

601
00:28:10,570 --> 00:28:15,927
Hello, and welcome back to the
DockerCon Monthly Dev Session.

602
00:28:15,927 --> 00:28:23,427
My name is Matt Granitz and I'm the
Chief Editor of DockerCon, I'm joined

603
00:28:23,427 --> 00:28:31,463
by Matt from Github, and Matt has been
really helping us out on this project.

604
00:28:31,463 --> 00:28:33,070
How are you?

605
00:28:33,070 --> 00:28:35,213
I am doing well.

606
00:28:35,213 --> 00:28:35,645
I'm

607
00:28:35,695 --> 00:28:38,655
The Zanzibar paper came out of
Google, nearly a decade ago.

608
00:28:38,985 --> 00:28:40,685
SpiceDB is an implementation of that.

609
00:28:40,695 --> 00:28:43,705
It will simplify your life if you
have permissions across the board.

610
00:28:44,525 --> 00:28:45,855
don't reinvent the wheel here.

611
00:28:45,855 --> 00:28:47,055
Use the tools that are out there.

612
00:28:47,555 --> 00:28:51,270
I never have SSH on any machines,
so teleport is always right there.

613
00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:52,500
I use Teleport for clustered.

614
00:28:52,510 --> 00:28:55,080
I have done since 2019 when
we did the first episode.

615
00:28:55,486 --> 00:28:59,736
again, you run a small binary
on every machine and cluster on

616
00:28:59,746 --> 00:29:02,396
databases and it commoditizes access.

617
00:29:02,715 --> 00:29:03,815
Yeah, I'm a fan of Teleport.

618
00:29:03,886 --> 00:29:04,826
need to get a logo there.

619
00:29:04,906 --> 00:29:05,196
Yeah,

620
00:29:05,577 --> 00:29:06,747
I need to get the logo in for that.

621
00:29:06,757 --> 00:29:09,847
Maybe someone on the teleport team will
contribute that to the repository for me.

622
00:29:09,847 --> 00:29:10,576
They,

623
00:29:11,357 --> 00:29:12,607
also gave away Yeti cups.

624
00:29:12,607 --> 00:29:17,167
So, you know, they got the swagger
in their swag a little bit.

625
00:29:17,257 --> 00:29:20,977
by the way, for those listening,
we've done cloud events, Q Flux

626
00:29:20,977 --> 00:29:26,972
cd, spice db, teleport, and you're
breaking these out into areas you

627
00:29:26,972 --> 00:29:30,172
mentioned that the, first three are
in app definition and development

628
00:29:30,612 --> 00:29:31,406
rest

629
00:29:32,133 --> 00:29:34,553
SPICE db, teleport, we've got
a few more to get through.

630
00:29:34,863 --> 00:29:38,643
are any of these, it sounds like
these are all technologies that

631
00:29:38,643 --> 00:29:39,913
aren't necessarily competitive.

632
00:29:40,213 --> 00:29:43,783
So when you recommend or advocate
for something, are you picking

633
00:29:43,783 --> 00:29:47,303
what you consider your favorite
or your winner in a category?

634
00:29:47,303 --> 00:29:48,263
Or would you

635
00:29:48,295 --> 00:29:49,607
see

636
00:29:49,763 --> 00:29:52,453
there's two good service
meshes or whatever?

637
00:29:53,262 --> 00:29:54,022
I'm, trying, again.

638
00:29:54,022 --> 00:29:55,282
I'm trying not to be swissolent.

639
00:29:55,302 --> 00:29:57,632
like there are more than two
good service meshes, but there's

640
00:29:57,632 --> 00:29:59,372
only one I would adopt and that's

641
00:29:59,372 --> 00:29:59,662
the

642
00:29:59,901 --> 00:30:00,181
Okay.

643
00:30:00,362 --> 00:30:01,212
I'll have under advocate.

644
00:30:01,232 --> 00:30:01,982
I wouldn't have two there.

645
00:30:01,982 --> 00:30:06,842
and funnily enough, we're now
into where Linkerd pops up, right?

646
00:30:06,882 --> 00:30:08,212
Like that is my service mesh.

647
00:30:08,212 --> 00:30:08,882
I use it everywhere.

648
00:30:09,957 --> 00:30:14,017
it's simple enough that I don't
need to overcomplicate the setup.

649
00:30:14,417 --> 00:30:17,237
It does what I want it to do, again,
without too much configuration.

650
00:30:17,237 --> 00:30:18,307
It works by default.

651
00:30:18,567 --> 00:30:21,877
It's lightweight, it's got a proxy
written in rust, like it ticks all the

652
00:30:21,877 --> 00:30:23,627
boxes on the Dave Book of technology.

653
00:30:23,927 --> 00:30:25,767
Like when I say, would I use this?

654
00:30:26,007 --> 00:30:26,927
It's got all the ticks.

655
00:30:27,337 --> 00:30:28,657
doesn't mean STO is not great.

656
00:30:28,697 --> 00:30:31,087
Everyone uses STO successfully
in the enterprise.

657
00:30:31,127 --> 00:30:32,377
Lots of banks use STO.

658
00:30:33,197 --> 00:30:35,827
they have requirements that lean them
more towards it over something like

659
00:30:35,867 --> 00:30:39,257
Linkerd, but to me, Linkerd is just
where we should be service mesh wise.

660
00:30:39,687 --> 00:30:44,007
And it's that balance of power,
defaults and, doing the right

661
00:30:44,007 --> 00:30:45,307
thing, like it's really important.

662
00:30:46,127 --> 00:30:47,367
Obviously Kubernetes is here.

663
00:30:47,457 --> 00:30:50,187
I've been advocating for
Kubernetes since, day one.

664
00:30:50,317 --> 00:30:51,647
Will that be replaced at some point.

665
00:30:51,972 --> 00:30:52,852
Yeah, probably.

666
00:30:52,902 --> 00:30:54,092
But that day is not today.

667
00:30:54,592 --> 00:30:56,342
These categories, by the
way, are from the landscape.

668
00:30:56,362 --> 00:30:57,742
I didn't want to reinvent the wheel.

669
00:30:57,801 --> 00:30:58,151
okay.

670
00:30:58,482 --> 00:31:01,892
my own categorization of software,
which we can take a look at, but the

671
00:31:01,892 --> 00:31:05,702
landscape is, I'm, trying to make
the landscape simpler, but again, I

672
00:31:05,712 --> 00:31:12,042
haven't deviated too far from, that, we
then have cilium and EBPF, is my CNI.

673
00:31:12,082 --> 00:31:16,382
I discourage people using any other
CNI because I feel like you're

674
00:31:16,382 --> 00:31:17,762
just throwing out too much power.

675
00:31:18,137 --> 00:31:19,907
EBPF is phenomenal.

676
00:31:19,977 --> 00:31:21,337
XDP is phenomenal.

677
00:31:21,417 --> 00:31:24,607
Hubble, who does not want Hubble in
their cluster, you're just missing

678
00:31:24,607 --> 00:31:30,797
out on so much and making your life
easy EBPF, while not a product or a

679
00:31:30,797 --> 00:31:34,087
project that one can just adopt as
something that solves the problem.

680
00:31:34,357 --> 00:31:35,027
You have to learn it.

681
00:31:35,027 --> 00:31:36,047
It's like a programming language.

682
00:31:36,727 --> 00:31:37,957
I do advocate for EBPF.

683
00:31:38,067 --> 00:31:40,757
It's a superpower to anyone that's
willing to invest the time to learn it.

684
00:31:41,712 --> 00:31:43,052
then we get down to observability.

685
00:31:43,112 --> 00:31:43,892
My stack is FluentBit.

686
00:31:44,192 --> 00:31:45,002
I love FluentBit.

687
00:31:45,062 --> 00:31:45,632
It's lightweight.

688
00:31:45,642 --> 00:31:46,012
It's written.

689
00:31:46,012 --> 00:31:47,112
C it's fantastic.

690
00:31:47,132 --> 00:31:48,692
Just use it if it works.

691
00:31:48,982 --> 00:31:50,762
There are times where
you can't use FluentBit.

692
00:31:51,402 --> 00:31:52,122
use FluentD.

693
00:31:53,032 --> 00:31:55,642
but FluentBit now I think has
enough parity that you're probably

694
00:31:55,642 --> 00:31:56,932
safer using FluentBit anyway.

695
00:31:57,411 --> 00:31:58,821
I've used it for a long time.

696
00:31:59,321 --> 00:31:59,721
right on you

697
00:31:59,850 --> 00:32:00,900
FluentBit, I've, yeah.

698
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:03,910
I felt like when it started getting
traction, I thought, well, I'm, going

699
00:32:03,910 --> 00:32:05,680
to switch from FluentD, so, yeah.

700
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:07,850
Because who wants something
written in Ruby when they can

701
00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:08,940
have something written in C

702
00:32:09,050 --> 00:32:09,550
Yes.

703
00:32:09,631 --> 00:32:11,391
Grafana needs no introduction.

704
00:32:11,481 --> 00:32:13,301
Everyone probably has
Grafana on their stack.

705
00:32:13,541 --> 00:32:17,311
OpenTelemetry is like CloudEvents,
it is now the universal language

706
00:32:17,321 --> 00:32:20,371
for metrics, logs, traces, and
anything that comes in the future.

707
00:32:20,371 --> 00:32:22,341
So just adopt it and simplify your life.

708
00:32:22,841 --> 00:32:26,821
The last two are Spin
and WebAssembly and WASI.

709
00:32:26,821 --> 00:32:28,911
I've been a big advocate
of WebAssembly for a while.

710
00:32:28,911 --> 00:32:30,011
I do think it is the future.

711
00:32:31,001 --> 00:32:33,561
we're not quite there yet, but I
will advocate the hell out of them

712
00:32:33,561 --> 00:32:36,651
any opportunity I get because the
developer experience of building

713
00:32:36,681 --> 00:32:41,531
applications that way is second to
none It is absolutely wonderful.

714
00:32:42,031 --> 00:32:45,201
rust, I struggled with not
putting this in advocate.

715
00:32:45,321 --> 00:32:48,521
I put it in learn because I do feel,
it's not that I should be telling

716
00:32:48,521 --> 00:32:52,881
people to put rust in their production,
but everyone should learn rust.

717
00:32:53,241 --> 00:32:55,231
It will teach you to
be a better developer.

718
00:32:55,531 --> 00:32:59,001
This is just broken down
into a Trello board, Kanban.

719
00:32:59,111 --> 00:33:00,961
you come along and pick the ones you want.

720
00:33:01,601 --> 00:33:04,071
if you want advanced mode, you
can say, show me one of these.

721
00:33:04,121 --> 00:33:06,491
I can just say, I only want to see.

722
00:33:06,991 --> 00:33:08,031
What should I be learning?

723
00:33:08,091 --> 00:33:11,351
you get this learn column, and these
are all the technologies that I think

724
00:33:11,351 --> 00:33:14,491
will make you a better engineer,
developer, and operator if you spend

725
00:33:14,491 --> 00:33:18,681
some time and invest in learning
them dagger for one as we click on

726
00:33:18,681 --> 00:33:18,771
it.

727
00:33:18,785 --> 00:33:21,620
Yeah, that's a good list for me.

728
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,780
because my students one of
the most common questions.

729
00:33:25,660 --> 00:33:30,020
We get in our Discord server, we get
people in there every day joining

730
00:33:30,020 --> 00:33:33,640
through the, discord discovery
when, they let us be in discovery.

731
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,980
because we get kicked out often
because of activity issues.

732
00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:36,569
the IoT

733
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,660
we go into discovery, we get a
bunch of people and they're like,

734
00:33:38,660 --> 00:33:40,550
onboarding is, low or whatever.

735
00:33:40,550 --> 00:33:41,570
We're going to kick you out of discovery.

736
00:33:41,570 --> 00:33:43,450
and then they're like, you meet
the requirements for discovery.

737
00:33:43,556 --> 00:33:43,781
Project.

738
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,450
But anyway, the people
show up and I would say

739
00:33:47,609 --> 00:33:47,834
an

740
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:48,810
I need a bot.

741
00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:53,460
So when you say I'm learning DevOps,
I have bots that send you a whole

742
00:33:53,460 --> 00:33:57,420
bunch of links in a dm. I, never set
it up, but I need to do that because

743
00:33:57,470 --> 00:34:01,350
there's a lot of people, especially
in India, coming into tech and wanting

744
00:34:01,350 --> 00:34:05,300
to go directly to DevOps activities
or platform engineering activities,

745
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,280
either at the beginning of their career
or very early in their career, you and

746
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,630
I have been doing this a long time.

747
00:34:10,740 --> 00:34:15,080
these those terminology, those
concepts of the job role specifically

748
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,800
for that existed 15 years ago, but
it's not the same as it is now.

749
00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:23,280
And the, what we call, what we think
of when we think you have a DevOps

750
00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:25,880
role or a platform engineering role
today are different than they were.

751
00:34:26,340 --> 00:34:29,230
And certainly the technology list is
completely different than 15 years ago.

752
00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:35,060
there's very few places that are,
I think, good opinionated paths.

753
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,830
of course we've got roadmaps sh or
roadmap sh and they do a lot of good

754
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:43,950
work there, but even their simple
version of the learning path can be

755
00:34:43,950 --> 00:34:46,420
quite intimidating, for new people.

756
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:50,240
these are the core foundations
for your overall IT learning.

757
00:34:50,740 --> 00:34:54,760
When we get into platform engineering
or caring about clustering technologies.

758
00:34:55,260 --> 00:35:00,840
There's nothing I can point people
to until today that says, okay,

759
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,210
I know there's a lot going on.

760
00:35:02,210 --> 00:35:03,620
yes, you need to go learn Kubernetes.

761
00:35:04,260 --> 00:35:06,900
But people often ask me about
what CNI, they should learn.

762
00:35:07,330 --> 00:35:11,340
They often ask, about which logging
or monitoring tool they might learn.

763
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:14,460
I think those are maybe some
of the most common ones.

764
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,310
The Flux versus Argo
conversation comes up a lot.

765
00:35:17,340 --> 00:35:20,170
I'm an Argo fan, but it's mostly
because that's what I've used.

766
00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:24,860
I've used Flux very few times and it was
definitely before the last major version.

767
00:35:24,870 --> 00:35:25,910
It was years ago.

768
00:35:25,950 --> 00:35:29,350
So I don't even feel like I can have a
strong opinion on one versus the other.

769
00:35:29,350 --> 00:35:30,330
I just know what I like.

770
00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:36,330
So for the, is that kind of what
your audience this learning part?

771
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,730
I need a short link to send people
to the learning path because that's

772
00:35:40,740 --> 00:35:44,440
something that we could put into our
Discord server for people to find quickly

773
00:35:44,450 --> 00:35:45,810
for what they need to check up on.

774
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,860
I guess if they're brand new to all this,
they start with the advocate stuff, right?

775
00:35:50,670 --> 00:35:52,950
I guess that's the challenge here
where do you meet your people?

776
00:35:53,450 --> 00:35:55,120
you've given me an idea for.

777
00:35:55,810 --> 00:35:58,100
How to frame the start of the matrix.

778
00:35:58,130 --> 00:36:00,630
I mean, there should be
a, button, Why am I here?

779
00:36:00,660 --> 00:36:01,170
I want to know

780
00:36:01,379 --> 00:36:01,849
Hmm.

781
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,900
I want to know what
technologies are on the horizon.

782
00:36:03,940 --> 00:36:07,130
I want to know what I put into production,
and I want to know what your stack is.

783
00:36:07,220 --> 00:36:09,490
Those, are the different questions
that I'm trying to answer.

784
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:13,380
Just because these are my
opinions and this, is my stack.

785
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:13,760
Yeah.

786
00:36:13,831 --> 00:36:18,191
you will actually get my blurb of
why I use this over the other tool.

787
00:36:18,201 --> 00:36:21,811
I do try to explain why FluxCD is
the tool that I use for GitOps.

788
00:36:22,721 --> 00:36:25,991
to make it a bit more fun, I've added a
spicy take to everything that I advocate.

789
00:36:26,491 --> 00:36:30,161
I don't know if this applies to you as an
Argo user, but since you did say you use

790
00:36:30,161 --> 00:36:34,461
Argo, you're getting the spicy take, and
for the audio audience, I'll read it out,

791
00:36:34,461 --> 00:36:40,441
Yeah,

792
00:36:40,578 --> 00:36:44,408
Flux CD is the grown up option, and most
teams don't realize it because they're

793
00:36:44,408 --> 00:36:46,008
busy clicking around their dashboard.

794
00:36:46,718 --> 00:36:51,778
sorry if I've offended you there at
the same time, but I, do Argo CD won

795
00:36:51,848 --> 00:36:57,523
the GitOps wars because it had that UI
made the delivery of your image updates

796
00:36:57,533 --> 00:37:00,053
very visual and people loved that.

797
00:37:00,353 --> 00:37:00,643
I'm,

798
00:37:00,654 --> 00:37:01,104
see

799
00:37:01,353 --> 00:37:02,063
I am one of those people.

800
00:37:02,294 --> 00:37:02,824
of flux.

801
00:37:03,354 --> 00:37:04,544
I mean, yeah, you're not offending me.

802
00:37:04,564 --> 00:37:07,134
And it's a great
conversation to have because,

803
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:09,225
We hope

804
00:37:09,604 --> 00:37:11,964
that's stuck with me for years is that

805
00:37:12,540 --> 00:37:14,270
I talk to teams that use both,

806
00:37:14,769 --> 00:37:15,606
time.

807
00:37:15,690 --> 00:37:20,210
that they use Flux to manage
the systems and they use Argo to

808
00:37:20,210 --> 00:37:22,600
show the dashboard to the devs.

809
00:37:23,260 --> 00:37:27,000
I've never implemented
both, at the same time.

810
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:32,530
But with Argo, I make the
dashboard read only so a lot of the

811
00:37:32,530 --> 00:37:37,170
functionality is, just, you can't use
it because it creates bad behavior.

812
00:37:37,290 --> 00:37:38,030
It's click ops.

813
00:37:38,370 --> 00:37:43,730
And yet I still love the, I love
giving developers a way to see into my

814
00:37:43,730 --> 00:37:48,300
clusters Giving them a regular dashboard
that would show a list of pods that

815
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:52,430
they maybe aren't, they're maybe more
concerned of, Hey, did the thing that

816
00:37:52,470 --> 00:37:56,190
the job, that run, finish and is my app
actually being served on the website?

817
00:37:56,190 --> 00:37:58,640
that was a common thing with a
couple of projects and they needed

818
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:59,620
something to tell them that.

819
00:37:59,630 --> 00:38:03,540
And I was like, well, we got this
dashboard with Argo, I'll give it to you.

820
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:06,720
So I started giving it read only, and
then I got a lot of success with people.

821
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:11,730
So really my own path to liking
Argo was through trying it first.

822
00:38:11,740 --> 00:38:15,120
Even though I was hoping at the beginning
I was like, well, flux seems cooler.

823
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:16,700
I'd like, I think I like this approach.

824
00:38:17,190 --> 00:38:21,580
But you're right, I think the web
project, the web ui originally it was

825
00:38:21,590 --> 00:38:25,720
shelved or it was a third party thing,
but it wasn't well kept or something.

826
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:28,230
I can't remember the
origin of the UI part.

827
00:38:28,366 --> 00:38:28,596
Yeah,

828
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:29,800
I just remembered it wasn't,

829
00:38:29,996 --> 00:38:30,466
one,

830
00:38:30,670 --> 00:38:31,130
yeah.

831
00:38:31,186 --> 00:38:36,196
the Weaveworks, enterprise one, was
available for people that did that.

832
00:38:37,491 --> 00:38:40,341
it was really difficult to get that
web UI for Flux back in the day,

833
00:38:40,361 --> 00:38:43,861
but now you're spoilt for choice
because our purpose built Web UIs I

834
00:38:43,861 --> 00:38:45,711
know the Gimlet team, shipped one.

835
00:38:46,061 --> 00:38:49,271
But not only that, headlamp has first
class support for Flux CD as well.

836
00:38:49,271 --> 00:38:50,611
if you really want it, it's there.

837
00:38:51,031 --> 00:38:53,941
But I'm of the opinion that, you have
to trust your GitOps pipeline and

838
00:38:53,951 --> 00:38:55,181
you don't really need to watch it.

839
00:38:55,521 --> 00:38:56,631
I tend not to have one.

840
00:38:56,736 --> 00:39:00,786
when, you have two great projects,
or at least two popular projects, I,

841
00:39:00,796 --> 00:39:04,146
sympathize with people because they
feel like they have to go super deep

842
00:39:04,166 --> 00:39:06,036
in order to make an educated choice.

843
00:39:06,356 --> 00:39:08,686
And who's got the time
to do that a dozen times.

844
00:39:08,686 --> 00:39:12,036
So that's exactly what you just stated
earlier about why you created this people

845
00:39:12,036 --> 00:39:16,006
shouldn't have to spend six months to
a year making decisions about the basic

846
00:39:16,006 --> 00:39:17,576
technologies that go in their stack.

847
00:39:18,056 --> 00:39:20,556
like you said earlier,
these are plumbing to us.

848
00:39:20,916 --> 00:39:25,086
They are, essential components
of a modern IT stack.

849
00:39:25,526 --> 00:39:28,866
And you need a lot of the things
you mentioned, We didn't really go

850
00:39:28,886 --> 00:39:30,736
deep into logging or monitoring.

851
00:39:31,176 --> 00:39:34,776
I think you did say Grafana, but you
didn't talk about Loki versus others.

852
00:39:34,776 --> 00:39:37,526
And, I don't know if I saw
Prometheus on the list,

853
00:39:37,536 --> 00:39:40,886
I wouldn't say that I specifically
always run one or the other.

854
00:39:41,146 --> 00:39:43,776
when it comes to observability,
I tend to use a SAS product

855
00:39:43,806 --> 00:39:45,086
rather than run on my own.

856
00:39:46,236 --> 00:39:50,191
because I'm happy to, I'm happy to
pay the price there want more sleep

857
00:39:50,251 --> 00:39:53,766
and I'm a team of one, so I don't,
really need to make that trade off.

858
00:39:54,466 --> 00:39:57,346
If I were back in a company tomorrow
and responsible for a production

859
00:39:57,346 --> 00:40:00,866
cluster, I'd probably be running Lokey.

860
00:40:01,086 --> 00:40:04,861
I think it's such an amazing piece of
software and I'd probably running meur

861
00:40:05,221 --> 00:40:06,931
because I know Grafana are gonna back that

862
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:18,823
Yeah.

863
00:40:26,403 --> 00:40:29,033
Because InfluxDB have done
three major rewrites in.

864
00:40:29,733 --> 00:40:30,373
Six years.

865
00:40:30,373 --> 00:40:33,573
that's a scary prospect for
people putting it into a critical

866
00:40:33,573 --> 00:40:34,573
part of their infrastructure.

867
00:40:34,573 --> 00:40:36,943
I'm willing to take that risk
because I'm a big fan of InfluxDB.

868
00:40:36,943 --> 00:40:38,863
I used to work there, which
is also why I'm a fan of it.

869
00:40:39,458 --> 00:40:42,238
but I'd struggle to put it
in Advocate when's Influx 4

870
00:40:42,268 --> 00:40:43,258
going to be written in Zig?

871
00:40:43,278 --> 00:40:44,578
is that going to come
out in two years time?

872
00:40:44,598 --> 00:40:45,838
I don't think they would ever do that.

873
00:40:45,878 --> 00:40:49,978
I, think they have found the vision
that Paul Dex, the founder had.

874
00:40:49,978 --> 00:40:54,708
I think he's now there and it's a safe
bet now, but would I bet my career on it?

875
00:40:54,758 --> 00:40:55,258
I don't know.

876
00:40:55,758 --> 00:40:58,298
So, to wrap this up because
we could talk for hours.

877
00:40:58,378 --> 00:41:00,308
what are some key takeaways?

878
00:41:00,348 --> 00:41:04,458
Do you have any key takeaways
for people this is for both new

879
00:41:04,458 --> 00:41:06,248
people and experienced engineers.

880
00:41:06,258 --> 00:41:09,638
If they're wanting to learn, if they're
looking for what they should learn next,

881
00:41:09,638 --> 00:41:11,338
this will help them, I guess with that.

882
00:41:11,838 --> 00:41:12,258
With that,

883
00:41:12,288 --> 00:41:15,468
if you go to advanced mode and filter
for what's important to you, If you're

884
00:41:15,468 --> 00:41:18,758
looking for application delivery and
want to know what to watch, learn,

885
00:41:18,758 --> 00:41:22,688
explore and adopt, it's all right
there, plain black and white with my

886
00:41:22,708 --> 00:41:24,368
feedback on as much things as I can.

887
00:41:24,528 --> 00:41:26,198
And do you know my goal?

888
00:41:26,503 --> 00:41:29,913
Is to add 10 pieces of feedback
to each project, or at least

889
00:41:29,923 --> 00:41:31,513
every day, add 10 more pieces.

890
00:41:31,753 --> 00:41:33,773
this is the V1 of the tech matrix.

891
00:41:34,382 --> 00:41:34,742
yeah.

892
00:41:34,792 --> 00:41:35,782
on major developments.

893
00:41:36,192 --> 00:41:40,382
I, will do that as, things change
a usability point right now.

894
00:41:41,327 --> 00:41:42,267
feedback is great.

895
00:41:42,277 --> 00:41:46,577
Please hit out on socials if something
isn't right or I can make your life

896
00:41:46,607 --> 00:41:48,577
easier or give you more opinions on stuff.

897
00:41:48,627 --> 00:41:51,047
those questions that go to
your discord, send them my way.

898
00:41:51,397 --> 00:41:52,827
I'll update the matrix to include that.

899
00:41:53,327 --> 00:41:56,297
but yeah, know it's not going
to help for people that are,

900
00:41:56,767 --> 00:41:58,647
listening, but use the advanced mode.

901
00:41:58,677 --> 00:42:01,887
That's my one piece of advice to anyone,
no matter what journey you're at, go

902
00:42:01,887 --> 00:42:06,207
to pipeline stage and just clear it
and select the one that makes sense.

903
00:42:06,677 --> 00:42:10,147
if you just want to know what is
cool and upcoming, the watch pile,

904
00:42:10,157 --> 00:42:12,117
there's 35 pieces of technology there.

905
00:42:12,822 --> 00:42:17,732
Daytona is gaining a lot of ground
in ai, and development environments.

906
00:42:17,992 --> 00:42:19,372
Start kicking the tires on that.

907
00:42:20,262 --> 00:42:21,892
we've got Dalec with a

908
00:42:21,980 --> 00:42:28,518
much for joining us today, Bye.

909
00:42:28,524 --> 00:42:31,474
confirm that it's worth watching,
but I am still keeping an eye on it.

910
00:42:32,634 --> 00:42:36,574
if we progress from watch to explore,
things that are safer bets might

911
00:42:36,574 --> 00:42:37,954
be right for you and it may not be.

912
00:42:37,954 --> 00:42:39,124
It just depends what you're trying to do.

913
00:42:39,134 --> 00:42:41,044
One that I think is
really cool is Perseus.

914
00:42:41,045 --> 00:42:43,484
This is like the Grafana replacement.

915
00:42:43,484 --> 00:42:46,254
It's an amazing project,
but it's so early.

916
00:42:46,344 --> 00:42:52,104
and it's not really got that multi
vendor contributions yet, They show me

917
00:42:52,104 --> 00:42:53,834
that it's going to have that longevity.

918
00:42:54,314 --> 00:42:55,624
So I think it's amazing.

919
00:42:55,664 --> 00:42:58,814
I hope they do amazing things and
keep going, but it's very much

920
00:42:58,814 --> 00:43:00,084
in that explorer phase right now.

921
00:43:00,134 --> 00:43:01,764
I can't encourage people
to go and learn it.

922
00:43:02,504 --> 00:43:05,554
another amazing project is Kairos
from the Spectral Cloud team.

923
00:43:06,054 --> 00:43:10,884
this allows you to take any Linux
operating system and make it an immutable.

924
00:43:11,284 --> 00:43:15,134
Cloud native Kubernetes running machine,
It's such a cool project and then of

925
00:43:15,134 --> 00:43:19,034
course if you ditch the explore and
learn, these are technologies that I

926
00:43:19,074 --> 00:43:21,224
think will pay dividends on your career,

927
00:43:21,284 --> 00:43:24,744
So that question of, I'm new
to DevOps and I want to learn.

928
00:43:25,369 --> 00:43:28,779
I hope I could guarantee that if you
pick anything on this list, it'll

929
00:43:28,779 --> 00:43:30,359
be a net positive on your career.

930
00:43:30,369 --> 00:43:34,059
Flatcar is an amazing piece of technology
that I think if you learn it and

931
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:35,879
learn how to use it, great things.

932
00:43:36,209 --> 00:43:37,139
Same with Knative.

933
00:43:37,169 --> 00:43:39,929
If you want serverless on Kubernetes,
there's probably no better choice

934
00:43:39,979 --> 00:43:46,304
than, the Knative Project And Dagger,
an up and coming CICD pipeline,

935
00:43:46,584 --> 00:43:50,094
that is all as code and TypeScript
and all of that really good stuff.

936
00:43:50,964 --> 00:43:52,624
This isn't just new shiny tech.

937
00:43:53,064 --> 00:43:55,894
Has anyone ever lost their
job from learning Postgres?

938
00:43:56,669 --> 00:44:00,889
No chance, everybody
should learn Postgres.

939
00:44:00,909 --> 00:44:02,649
it's going to make you a better DBA.

940
00:44:02,649 --> 00:44:04,099
It's going to make you
design better schemas.

941
00:44:04,109 --> 00:44:06,879
It's going to make you think about
indices and optimizations and

942
00:44:06,879 --> 00:44:08,319
performance at the database layer.

943
00:44:08,609 --> 00:44:11,649
You can even go down a rabbit hole of
learning P-L-S-Q-L, and that will still

944
00:44:11,649 --> 00:44:13,649
pay you dividends later on in your career.

945
00:44:13,999 --> 00:44:14,399
The way.

946
00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:14,950
of software.

947
00:44:15,143 --> 00:44:17,563
I love that you're like, I, still
have the, 'cause I love that.

948
00:44:17,773 --> 00:44:19,743
you also have the Kubernetes
project listed there, which I

949
00:44:19,743 --> 00:44:21,383
think is, an assumed, an assumed.

950
00:44:21,383 --> 00:44:21,723
Yes.

951
00:44:21,870 --> 00:44:21,880
I?

952
00:44:22,133 --> 00:44:24,993
I want to do a little plug
for my friend Aaron Francis.

953
00:44:24,993 --> 00:44:29,373
He just launched a Postgres
course called Mastering Postgres.

954
00:44:29,853 --> 00:44:33,463
he has built a bunch of database
courses at databaseschool.

955
00:44:33,493 --> 00:44:33,923
com.

956
00:44:34,313 --> 00:44:36,343
That's an unpaid ad for my friend Aaron.

957
00:44:36,343 --> 00:44:40,233
He's a wonderful guy and, he's
making really good content

958
00:44:40,243 --> 00:44:42,223
and he's making me jealous.

959
00:44:42,253 --> 00:44:46,423
because he rented an apartment,
built a whole studio in it, put an

960
00:44:46,433 --> 00:44:50,533
actual blackboard in there, like a,
teacher's classroom and is killing

961
00:44:50,533 --> 00:44:51,713
it in the content game right now.

962
00:44:51,713 --> 00:44:52,037
think,

963
00:44:52,121 --> 00:44:53,861
courses with a lot of technical

964
00:44:54,062 --> 00:44:54,386
little

965
00:44:54,531 --> 00:44:55,221
deep insight.

966
00:44:55,261 --> 00:44:56,011
I, feel like the same way.

967
00:44:56,041 --> 00:44:56,365
actually

968
00:44:56,396 --> 00:44:56,916
it's like.

969
00:44:57,013 --> 00:44:57,337
the

970
00:44:57,446 --> 00:44:58,116
To me,

971
00:44:58,308 --> 00:44:58,956
you need

972
00:44:59,001 --> 00:45:02,301
networking, getting a Cisco
cert early in my career, in the

973
00:45:02,301 --> 00:45:04,781
nineties, was pivotal foundational.

974
00:45:04,821 --> 00:45:06,311
I still use that knowledge every day.

975
00:45:06,453 --> 00:45:07,100
of that

976
00:45:07,151 --> 00:45:11,251
I don't necessarily have to break down
my, subnets into binary a whole lot

977
00:45:11,251 --> 00:45:16,821
anymore, but understanding that stuff
has always helped me in every level

978
00:45:16,831 --> 00:45:18,711
above that in the technology stack.

979
00:45:18,711 --> 00:45:23,211
And that's to me, like TCP IP is one
of those things that it's almost feels

980
00:45:23,211 --> 00:45:27,511
like people learn last now because the
cloud just sort of glosses over it.

981
00:45:27,851 --> 00:45:29,351
But databases are the same thing.

982
00:45:29,351 --> 00:45:33,011
you and I could probably walk
into a typical cloud native shop

983
00:45:33,021 --> 00:45:36,981
of a small team that's maybe in a
little startup I'm presuming that

984
00:45:36,981 --> 00:45:38,461
you've never been a full time DBA.

985
00:45:38,691 --> 00:45:42,411
I would never have called myself that,
but I've managed lots of databases over

986
00:45:42,411 --> 00:45:44,531
the years and I bet you I could still.

987
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:45,575
see

988
00:45:45,651 --> 00:45:48,601
after I first ranted about
indexes, I could probably still

989
00:45:48,601 --> 00:45:51,051
walk into a team today and they're
having performance problems.

990
00:45:51,051 --> 00:45:52,521
And I'm like, yeah,
you're not doing indexes.

991
00:45:52,531 --> 00:45:53,571
let's do some indexing.

992
00:45:54,011 --> 00:45:57,121
to me that's like a foundational
understanding of that anyone

993
00:45:57,121 --> 00:45:57,971
should have a database.

994
00:45:57,971 --> 00:46:01,961
It's Like even if you're just a, DevOps
engineer a full time ops engineer running

995
00:46:01,961 --> 00:46:04,341
Kubernetes clusters, like, you should
probably understand the basics of how

996
00:46:04,341 --> 00:46:09,641
SQL works and how SQL databases have
logs and how they flush some of these

997
00:46:09,691 --> 00:46:14,706
sort of basic technologies that we
can't avoid even if you outsource it.

998
00:46:15,126 --> 00:46:17,686
So it's cool that you had that stuff
in there because that's key stuff too.

999
00:46:17,686 --> 00:46:21,156
I mean, it's like you're, you're getting
right on the edge of almost being.

1000
00:46:21,946 --> 00:46:23,326
it's you're the cloud native stack.

1001
00:46:23,326 --> 00:46:27,796
So I go to DevOps sh for my, which
programming language should I

1002
00:46:27,796 --> 00:46:31,786
learn for DevOps, which, you know,
it's got the typical Ansible,

1003
00:46:31,786 --> 00:46:34,596
Terraform, blah, blah, blah, Docker,
Kubernetes, learn all these things.

1004
00:46:34,656 --> 00:46:37,166
learn a cloud, get a
cert in DevOps somewhere.

1005
00:46:37,266 --> 00:46:42,316
And then now it's like, okay, now you
need to be actually productive and make

1006
00:46:42,316 --> 00:46:45,316
decisions on how you're going to run
your web servers and your databases.

1007
00:46:45,716 --> 00:46:49,116
And that's maybe where the cloud native,
like we jump over to David's website

1008
00:46:49,116 --> 00:46:50,726
and that's where it starts off with.

1009
00:46:50,746 --> 00:46:52,836
And I feel like there's
a continuity there.

1010
00:46:52,836 --> 00:46:53,476
We could sell that.

1011
00:46:53,976 --> 00:46:57,316
I hope there is value to
everyone who is trying to learn.

1012
00:46:57,356 --> 00:46:58,316
the learning doesn't stop.

1013
00:46:58,316 --> 00:47:00,906
This isn't people, you know, when I
say people trying to learn, it's not

1014
00:47:00,906 --> 00:47:02,776
people that have got 10 days experience.

1015
00:47:03,046 --> 00:47:05,901
You know, even people that have been
doing this for 20 years, like us.

1016
00:47:05,951 --> 00:47:08,681
is there ever a day or a week that
goes by where you're not learning?

1017
00:47:09,181 --> 00:47:10,961
and the Postgres thing, right?

1018
00:47:11,311 --> 00:47:13,661
what you were just talking about
indexes and all of that, You've

1019
00:47:13,661 --> 00:47:14,751
got to get the basics right.

1020
00:47:14,761 --> 00:47:17,271
You've got to master the
basics 10, 000 times.

1021
00:47:17,561 --> 00:47:20,541
like the old, I can't remember his name.

1022
00:47:21,356 --> 00:47:22,806
The martial artist that died

1023
00:47:22,806 --> 00:47:23,094
Bruce

1024
00:47:23,377 --> 00:47:23,857
Bruce Lee.

1025
00:47:24,124 --> 00:47:27,294
he said he didn't fear someone who
practiced 10, 000 kicks one time.

1026
00:47:27,484 --> 00:47:30,454
He feared a person who practiced
one kick 10, 000 times it's true in

1027
00:47:30,454 --> 00:47:34,054
development and engineering, you've
got to get those basics down and then

1028
00:47:34,064 --> 00:47:35,143
that gives you the, ability to do it.

1029
00:47:35,604 --> 00:47:38,284
the freedom to go and explore
all these other technologies.

1030
00:47:38,284 --> 00:47:40,724
The T shaped developer is
a very important paradigm.

1031
00:47:41,114 --> 00:47:43,114
that changes when we bring AI into it.

1032
00:47:43,124 --> 00:47:44,494
is my matrix already useless?

1033
00:47:44,514 --> 00:47:46,284
Because people can just sit
down with Gemini and say,

1034
00:47:46,694 --> 00:47:47,994
what should I learn this week?

1035
00:47:47,994 --> 00:47:48,824
It's like, I don't know.

1036
00:47:48,894 --> 00:47:54,424
But I still think there's a lot of value
and, you know, the human touch and our

1037
00:47:54,424 --> 00:47:56,654
opinions and sharing that with people.

1038
00:47:56,684 --> 00:47:59,324
And this is my way to try and
ease that burden for people.

1039
00:47:59,824 --> 00:48:00,194
Nice.

1040
00:48:00,524 --> 00:48:01,974
Well, thanks for creating this yet.

1041
00:48:02,174 --> 00:48:07,194
Another thing for the community, I feel
like your list is ever growing of, of

1042
00:48:07,214 --> 00:48:13,094
things you've, you're giving away in terms
of content and advice and edutainment,

1043
00:48:13,144 --> 00:48:14,834
which I also have used that word before.

1044
00:48:14,834 --> 00:48:17,614
So that's good that you think that, 'cause
I think that is key is a lot of this

1045
00:48:17,614 --> 00:48:21,444
stuff can, can be dry and dull and we've
already got that in a thousand conference

1046
00:48:21,444 --> 00:48:24,044
talks every, well, every three months now.

1047
00:48:24,464 --> 00:48:26,554
I guess it was definitely more
than a few thousand a year of

1048
00:48:26,564 --> 00:48:28,364
conference talks on YouTube.

1049
00:48:28,374 --> 00:48:31,634
So we don't need more
technical content necessarily.

1050
00:48:31,634 --> 00:48:33,894
We need something that's a
little better, higher produced.

1051
00:48:33,914 --> 00:48:37,194
And you are one of those gentlemen
that I. I like to watch your videos.

1052
00:48:37,194 --> 00:48:39,984
I watched your cue video,
from a couple of days ago.

1053
00:48:40,024 --> 00:48:41,164
last night actually, I think I,

1054
00:48:41,410 --> 00:48:41,800
So,

1055
00:48:41,854 --> 00:48:42,504
up in my feed.

1056
00:48:42,554 --> 00:48:42,944
be

1057
00:48:43,095 --> 00:48:46,560
you're somehow YouTube knows
that if it talks about cloud

1058
00:48:46,570 --> 00:48:47,890
native, it needs to show up

1059
00:48:48,202 --> 00:48:48,593
later.

1060
00:48:48,650 --> 00:48:50,580
next to late night comedy
and stand up comedy.

1061
00:48:50,580 --> 00:48:52,460
Like those are my three things on YouTube.

1062
00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:54,150
They're all nice and mixed together.

1063
00:48:54,290 --> 00:48:59,810
Oh, and, EVs, anything ev and it throws
you and Victor Farsik and some other,

1064
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,000
Sid and some other good YouTubers.

1065
00:49:02,030 --> 00:49:03,450
it throws them all in there in the mix.

1066
00:49:03,671 --> 00:49:04,371
great content.

1067
00:49:04,471 --> 00:49:04,881
Yeah.

1068
00:49:05,371 --> 00:49:09,491
So thanks for doing this and I'm looking
forward to getting this podcast out.

1069
00:49:09,521 --> 00:49:13,481
And you can find more of this at, rawcode.

1070
00:49:13,491 --> 00:49:16,301
Academy and all the links are
gonna be in the show notes.

1071
00:49:16,591 --> 00:49:17,851
David, where can people find you?

1072
00:49:17,851 --> 00:49:19,461
I know you've also got a Discord server.

1073
00:49:19,611 --> 00:49:21,741
do you want to tell the people
where they can find you at?

1074
00:49:22,241 --> 00:49:22,571
Yeah.

1075
00:49:22,621 --> 00:49:25,051
you can go to Discord, GG slash rawcode.

1076
00:49:25,051 --> 00:49:30,001
I'll go to Discord server, I am
rawcode on every reputable social site.

1077
00:49:30,871 --> 00:49:33,291
and, you know, even know what's there.

1078
00:49:34,021 --> 00:49:34,121
the.

1079
00:49:34,121 --> 00:49:35,051
way the world is right now.

1080
00:49:35,051 --> 00:49:37,821
I find myself on LinkedIn a whole
lot more, which I never thought would

1081
00:49:37,821 --> 00:49:41,551
happen, but I am active on LinkedIn
sharing my opinions there too.

1082
00:49:41,551 --> 00:49:43,321
So I try to be everywhere.

1083
00:49:43,411 --> 00:49:45,681
and I'm always happy to
sit down with people.

1084
00:49:45,681 --> 00:49:47,801
I have a very public office hours link.

1085
00:49:47,851 --> 00:49:49,541
I'll make sure Bret has
that for the show notes too.

1086
00:49:49,541 --> 00:49:51,671
if you ever just want 20 minutes
to sit down and talk tech,

1087
00:49:52,471 --> 00:49:53,561
it's there for the community.

1088
00:49:53,631 --> 00:49:54,401
I have nothing but time.

1089
00:49:55,140 --> 00:49:55,890
Yeah, that's great.

1090
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:56,490
That's perfect.

1091
00:49:56,860 --> 00:50:01,960
this is the exact DM I sent to a group
of, cloud native friends recently.

1092
00:50:02,230 --> 00:50:03,010
Random thought.

1093
00:50:03,260 --> 00:50:06,510
I get more value from scrolling
LinkedIn than any other platform.

1094
00:50:07,010 --> 00:50:08,430
I actually enjoy it.

1095
00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:11,090
I think 90% percent of
what I see is good quality.

1096
00:50:11,220 --> 00:50:13,130
What a strange world we live in.

1097
00:50:13,630 --> 00:50:16,430
Oh, never thought I
would see the day either.

1098
00:50:16,430 --> 00:50:17,220
And here I am.

1099
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:21,270
I'm not only consuming LinkedIn,
I'm now posting to LinkedIn,

1100
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,000
which is a very new thing for me.

1101
00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:27,900
But I do think it's given people a voice
and I want more voices in the community.

1102
00:50:27,900 --> 00:50:29,810
I want to get more opinions,
more feedback, all of that.

1103
00:50:29,850 --> 00:50:31,550
And it is one of the
better places right now.

1104
00:50:31,650 --> 00:50:32,090
Definitely.

1105
00:50:32,894 --> 00:50:35,234
yeah, Low, drama, high quality.

1106
00:50:35,234 --> 00:50:36,184
that's at least my feed.

1107
00:50:36,184 --> 00:50:37,634
I'm very lucky in there,
at least right now.

1108
00:50:38,044 --> 00:50:41,514
I, didn't do a lot of work to get
it there, so I assume that that's, a

1109
00:50:41,514 --> 00:50:43,294
experience that others might have in tech.

1110
00:50:43,664 --> 00:50:44,744
I know Blue sky is a thing.

1111
00:50:44,744 --> 00:50:48,024
I'm a big fan of Blue Sky, but,
the community at least the cloud

1112
00:50:48,034 --> 00:50:50,464
native community, And the, the
container and cloud community

1113
00:50:50,464 --> 00:50:53,024
feels more active on LinkedIn than
on, BlueSky, at least currently.

1114
00:50:53,434 --> 00:50:55,484
thanks for being here and I'm
sure we'll do this again and

1115
00:50:55,484 --> 00:50:56,194
see each other at KubeCon,

1116
00:50:56,624 --> 00:50:59,912
bye.

1117
00:51:00,185 --> 00:51:01,575
You can sign up for my newsletter at bret.

1118
00:51:01,755 --> 00:51:05,195
News to get this and more
cloud native content.