Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
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Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
Jason Barrett has put his life in service to people with special needs.
Obviously, that's dear to my heart because I've done a rather similar thing.
But I kind of had to do it because I, obviously, I'm an autism dad, Jason
and his wife Sise, who by the way, you will want to go across to our equine
assisted world podcast and listen to her incredible interview and story there.
But even though she's the sort of horse person behind that, Jason
has built an extraordinary family business around theater performance,
special needs, neuroplasticity.
And living life sort of on his own terms along the way.
And when I first met Jason, which I think was in 2018 he struck me as somebody who
would see no obstacles in life because you really can't, you shouldn't be able to
make a living through this sort of weird mix of equestrian theater autism living
life on the road as a sort of performance gypsy, let alone like raise a family and
the whole thing and, and make a go of it.
And yet he has.
And I think we all kind of wanna run away with the circus, so as the man that
we might be running to if we do that.
I wanna welcome Jason to the show.
And so Jason, thanks so much for coming on.
You're one of my heroes.
Tell us.
Super.
I'm excited to be here.
Thanks for having me.
It's always fun to, to talk.
Are you talk with, you hang out with like-minded people, what
possessed you to do something?
So on the face of it, impossible to make a living at when you could have
just gone to law school or something?
Jason Barrett: Well, I, I, I could have done that.
That would've been an option.
I think first of all, you, you've gotta look all the way back and I have to
give credit to a, a fortunate life.
I was born under great conditions.
I was born in the United States with a family who loved and cared for me under
conditions that that allowed for growth.
You know, there's a lot of people that don't start that way.
So that would be the first thing.
You know, obviously you gotta have a decent start, otherwise you may have
some obstacles to go to overcome.
And as far as my life was gone, has gone there's been no real obstacles like that.
Rupert Isaacson: You know, that's a very honest thing to say because a lot of
people want to sort of virtue signal by saying, well, you know, I bootstrapped
it and I came outta poverty and so on.
I do know that you did bootstrap it.
I know that you're being very modest there, but it's interesting that you start
with gratitude for the life circumstances.
I think so many of us just completely, who grew up in the West completely
take for granted and have a bit of a sense of entitlement to just
the fact that we are born here and not in Wartorn Sudan or something.
And it is a very valid point.
Okay, so you're born in, in the us Where are you born?
Jason Barrett: Born in Jacksonville, Florida, down on the
beautiful east coast of Florida.
Moved shortly thereafter to Mobile, Alabama.
Were home.
WW became home from three years old, o old on.
And and I guess as far as attention with the with the special needs world and that,
and that type of, how, that became such a huge part of my life, which it absolutely
did was, I was introduced and we're in the Southern Baptist Bible Belt down here.
So we were, we were good baptists.
Amen.
Coming to school to play basketball or up to the church to play
basketball and and hear the word.
And so I was part of the youth group at that time, and there was
a really great youth pastor, you know, a lot of a lot of preachers
get condemnation from some folks.
This was one of those honest, true to true to life people, you know, a heartfelt guy.
Okay.
He recognized in me just from our interactions with the youth group
and, and things and went to my mother and said, Hey, you know what?
I've had this camp call and they need hands on deck.
It's for mentally retarded children and adults, which
was the term used at the time.
Mm-hmm.
And and we think, I think that Jason has a good heart for this kind of work.
He could probably help, but I was 12 years old at the time, so 12 years old.
Wow.
That's, that's what he, that's what they thought.
So he said, yeah, let's, let's give it a try.
I was willing, I, I wanted to do that.
I, I did it already.
Enjoy.
Helping others and, and found the joy and, and satisfaction
and, and serving other people.
And, and so anyway, I went, gave it a shot, had no idea what I was walking into.
I walked into a line of full grown man.
There was a six foot three black dude that was twice as wide as I was, who
was getting pretty irate in the line.
And then they introduced me to my 40-year-old camper, 49-year-old camper.
This old man who could, who can't speak, and he is drooling on himself.
And this was my introduction to the special needs community at 12 years old.
So, wow.
It was perfect.
Absolutely perfect.
What was your reaction?
My reaction was just shock and awe at first.
Oh boy, what did I get myself into here?
You know, but I was willing.
I showed up.
I'm not one to, you know, turn away when I, when I tried.
There must
Rupert Isaacson: have been a little bit of fear, though.
I mean big autistic adults, it's not easy.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
Shocking.
It was a little bit of fear but it calmed down very soon.
The, the air in the place at that time, you know, this
was, this was before internet.
This was before you, you had to show up in person to sign your documents.
You had to meet everyone who passed through the line.
You know this.
Yeah.
That was going on.
So it's a different era.
It's hard to talk about things now in that, in the light of that, but the
air from that moment was just this big cooperative scene of happy people
waiting to get in the lunch line.
And everybody's kind of herding cats, you know, they're, they're doing
their part to help whoever they're working with do the best job they can.
And, and I jumped right in feet first, and stayed there from 12 to about 20 each year
for about five weeks out of the summer.
I and a bunch of others showed up there to be volunteers and, and
help was, this was Camp Smile,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Opportunities
Jason Barrett: Camp Smile.
This was Camp Smile, also called Camp.
Why did it grab
Rupert Isaacson: you so much?
I can tell you I, at 12 or my teens, I would've run.
I just, I would've run a mile.
Yeah.
And most people do.
Jason Barrett: I, I don't know, it just, it was just innate, a part of
me, even when I tried to transfer out into the regular workforce, the idea
of not helping someone directly just, it just didn't make me feel like I was
in sync with what I should be doing.
So help, direct help is something I could, can you just tell us a
Rupert Isaacson: little bit though about what, what was the internal process?
I mean, what do you think made you go, yes, this is for me.
Jason Barrett: I would've probably, I, it would, it was be after
the fact that I got started.
So maybe a week into that first week, I knew where I was after that
first week of working with that man.
His name was David De Rocher and he was, he was very mild behavior,
like I said, 49-year-old man.
And during the time that I worked with him that week, it opened my eyes to the fact
that most of us don't have any problems.
You can, you can pretend you do, but until you've worked in this, in this
world and you see what families go through and you see the lack of hope that just
wells up and how the tiniest effort can change everything in those situations,
you really learn to be grateful.
You learn.
So I really attribute.
My basic character to my understanding at that camp with those, and I give a
lot of credit to everything we've done to the special needs humans who raised me
while I was a young teenager helping them.
How do you think they raised you?
How did the special needs people raise you?
There's this you know, the, it, it depends 'cause everyone is an individual.
So you, you're talking about a group of people that are indeed
incredibly individualistic and some of those you learn lessons, you learn
lessons from some of these folks.
You know, when one, just the lifestyle of them and their family, the, the
need to get up and put your next foot forward regardless, sometimes shaking
off the problem is exactly what you do.
In this population.
Some people don't even see the problem.
There is no problem.
So you, there's these tiny, tiny lessons you can learn from a
population that doesn't think and breathe and live the same way you do.
And you've learned that for, obviously from your travels around the world.
We are so different.
And yet there's all these tiny connections.
If you're paying enough attention, that can build something new in you.
So for me, it was that, it was seeing that these folks are willing
to smile, have a great time.
The forgiveness and the kindness that you see, the, the, the connection that
you can make because of the lack of layers of humanity that's grown on top
of our faces as we go through life.
You know, those, those layers are peeled back much like working with the horses.
It's just you get an easy answer from a horse, yes or no, I
like this, I don't like this.
And it builds room for communication the same thing.
This communication between us was so simple at the time.
Sometimes it's just to sit and a stare and a look, and you're waiting for that.
For something, a light in the eye that changes.
And when you notice it and then you notice it again, then you
realize, hey, there's a person in there, there's a personality there.
And that just, just grabbed me.
I wanted to help that, I wanted to be a part of helping that.
Rupert Isaacson: You used the word forgiveness just now.
That's an interesting choice of words.
What did you learn about forgiveness as a, as a teen
growing up with these, these folks?
Jason Barrett: It just seemed like, you know, intention really means something.
Intention means something.
And a lot of people can get caught in the action or the word and
ignore the intention that was meant.
And maybe that was a mistake, a wrong word.
Maybe you did the wrong thing at the wrong time.
But the forgiveness aspect, learning, learning from them is that whatever
mistakes there were to happen if you were late, if, if you lost their
shirt or they, they didn't come back with their favorite cup the next day.
If you were still investing in them in their time that was gone.
There was, there was an opportunity to rebuild almost immediately in most cases
of the people that I've worked with, it seems like that that's able, now I could
imagine through nature, nurture nurture that you could be developed in a different
way and somebody could be very skittish.
And there have been people that I've met that I've seen that may have been abused
along the way or, or were hurt people that, that don't respond the same way.
But in general, that's it.
You get a, you get a second chance without a slap in the face or,
you know, without the grief.
Rupert Isaacson: So you're saying you are really talking about people
forgiving you, your mistakes.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
People forgiving.
Yeah.
Just learning to forgive.
Right.
Basically.
Learning to forgive because either it's a non-issue and you shouldn't
have made that big of a deal of it in the first place, Uhhuh, or it's
something that can be passed over for the value of your relationship.
Or it's something you have to handle directly.
Maybe they're doing something wrong that day and you really have
to, to make sure they understand this is not a safe behavior.
You cannot do this.
Mm-hmm.
That may be different, but, and they may hate you in the moment, but it just seems
like there's always that opportunity to start over in that population.
You have a chance to help.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you talk about how did you work with these people at camps?
Smile, like how did you organize their day?
What was the, yeah, what was the structure of it?
And then through that and those activities, how did you, what did
you learn about human development?
Neuroplasticity, how the brain works.
Jason Barrett: We had a structure, like a typical camp program.
You'd wake up and have a day full of activities and, and scattered in
between breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
But it was a little different in that the, the, the intimacy of
the closeness to each other was.
Was necessary because you had to take care of these.
They had, they couldn't shower themselves, bathe themselves,
use the restroom by themselves.
A lot of times we had wheelchairs that worked total
paraplegics that, and diapers.
So you've got a range of at that time, 12 to 20 year olds who are leading this under
a couple of incredible mentors in my life.
CSY Lowell and Martha White.
They were two of the directors that were at the time, and, and they had
a, a real heart for it, you know, and, and the social ability, I really
learned a lot from both of them about being open, leading a group, you know,
trying, keeping engagement involved.
So anyway, that's, that's the days we're set up like that.
We get up, have bre, get everybody ready, have breakfast, and start some events.
And that event would depend on what your.
Camper was capable of doing.
Not everybody could do the same thing.
So you might be playing baseball that day and your camper can't hold
a bat, or maybe it doesn't have arms.
There's, there's no talent.
So you're gonna find some creative way to play that game with them and you'll
follow, we'd follow them through the game.
So nothing was necessarily required outside of the organization of
having people in the right places.
But you'd be introduced to an activity, to a dance just like any other normal camp.
So the point was to give them a opportunity at a life that felt like what
us normies get the opportunities that we may have at a camp situation like that.
How do you
Rupert Isaacson: help someone with no arms play baseball?
Jason Barrett: Well, you could do a lot of things.
You can hold the bat between your knees.
If they're sitting in a wheelchair, they could hold the bat between their
knees, drop the T down low, and you turn the wheelchair and let 'em smack it.
And it's a small hit.
And these tiny victories, you know, sometimes that's a, that's
a problem with some of these young kids that look at these games and
look at what these people can do.
And it's, it's so limited.
It's, you know, they may laugh at it or they may think it's you
know, what is the point of it.
But when you spend the time with the person who's engaged in it, and they've
never had the opportunity to do that before, it becomes a whole new thing.
So you can find a joy and excitement in that if you're willing to look.
So, yeah, there's, there's ways you could do that.
You may, it may be a situation where you slide your arms around him and hold the
bat for them or her and hit the ball.
Mm-hmm.
Whatever you have to do to make them a part of the thing so that
they're not sitting on the sidelines.
That was my introduction to the special needs world and, and that population.
And, and it was always, as you mentioned before, nothing stops.
You.
You're gonna get to the next event.
You're gonna go to the next thing.
Everybody's gonna get a chance to participate.
We're gonna make it happen in whatever that, whatever that obstacle is.
And man, those are some great foundations.
Those great foundations that are I
Rupert Isaacson: how, but it still blows my mind that you as a.
American Teen Boy or whatever nationality,
Jason Barrett: right.
Rupert Isaacson: Dealing with, you know, adult diapers.
What, what do you think was your special superpower that you could
do that and be required to do that?
And at that age, not with some later maturity, but at that age.
'cause 'cause the teenage years, we are hardwired as you know, the human
brain is hardwired to be self-absorbed.
The, you know, brain is not growing you know, all, at all
the same pieces at the same time.
And we know that nature designs us at sort of toddlerdom and adolescence
to go through these periods of self-absorption where you sort of
formulate first the personality of childhood and then the personality.
That will lead you into adulthood, but they come with this.
Yeah.
Almost a kind of a built in narcissism
that doesn't really usually go with like adult diapers.
That blows my mind.
It makes sense.
Why?
What, what was different about your brain?
Jason Barrett: There was no, now there's no, there are no saints in the room here.
So there's plenty of looking back and, and thinking, man, that was a stupid
decision or Wow, I could have been a little more considerate about that.
So there's, first of all, let's right the ship.
There was no perfect role going there.
But we had a great community at the time.
So coming into the, the camp, it was already established.
So I think that would be the, that would be, there had to be mentorship.
There had to be somebody that directed that path, because that wasn't
intrinsic to me yet at the time.
Yeah.
You know, I took these things from those opportunities.
So that would be the thing.
Mentorship.
And it's something we learned, especially when we started developing Alisa School
of Equestrian Arts for therapeutic horseback riding, was that it just,
it really dawned on me later in life as I got involved in other states and
places in special with the special needs community, that there is just a timeframe
that just like everything else, and I believe fully between eight, 10 years
old, 14, 15 years old, that is a special time in development and that is a time
you can take a child and inspire them.
That inspiration stick and become something I feel like, and I'm not,
obviously things can happen at any time, but man, that is a sweet spot and I've
learned that over and over again as we've sent generations of teenagers through
our volunteer program that you know, if you catch 'em at 16 or, you know, they
might be a little too late when they're driving around and have their own interest
in their own life and they can be fully self-absorbed, you know, they can be.
But I was doing this, like I said, at 12.
I wasn't going anywhere on my own.
Camp was the place where I made my friends as well.
So it was definitely a community involvement.
And when I walked in, the leadership at the time maintained enthusiasm.
I mean, that's a, it's a big deal in all of these programs that we see around the
country and, and what we've done ourself.
If there's no enthusiasm in it, it's short.
It's going to be short-lived.
And so that enthusiasm is infectious.
So I, I believe that with it being that it was a, it was a perfect storm for me.
It's not the normal story.
For sure as you're alluding to, it's not the normal story, but there were hundreds
of other kids that helped out in the same way I did that were all teenagers.
So, it's not a lone story.
So I think it was the community, the factor that we came in there that I was
interested in doing in the first place.
I had a heart and mind for that, just, that's just how I grew up.
And then coming in there and meeting like-minded people with some leadership
that were really heartfelt, involved all the way through every aspect of it.
To be there walking with you through the steps.
That was an infectious time.
We had an incredible time at that time period.
I've watched it change through the years and there's been pros and
cons that have come and developed, but there was a magic time there.
I'm sure you remember some of those times before there were cell phones and
recordings and everybody had to second guess everything with a thousand choices.
Yeah, it was just something special in that time.
So that was probably what instilled it in me.
Like I said, it didn't just start there, but it grew.
That's, that's the place that grew my character and, and the direction that I
hope to take my life and future family.
Rupert Isaacson: I've got a question.
It's a bit of a provocative question.
You say that this happened through the Southern Baptist Church?
Yeah.
Yep.
Well, you know, Southern Baptist Church I lived, I've lived in the South.
Mm-hmm.
A lot.
And I've observed some not good things.
Through that church.
Yeah.
And one of the issues of it is it was one of only two churches that
I know of that sort of wrote a theology designed to justify slavery.
The other one is the, is the church of some of my ancestors, which is the Dutch
Reform Church in South Africa, which sort of rewrote its rules to allow for
apartheid in South Africa, you know, the separation of whites and blacks.
And there's a, you know, an age old joke where, you know, the white
priest, the PE as they call them, is coming to church and there's a
black person down on their knees.
Mm-hmm.
And they said, what are you doing in here?
Was like, you know, I'm, I'm cleaning the floor boss.
And he goes, well, all right, but don't let me catch you praying.
And yeah, but you know, we know that the Southern Baptist Church
was related to the Ku Klux Klan.
We know that it, it was, and even pre that, you know, came out very,
very much in favor of a theology.
And, you know, you don't actually have to try very hard because the Old
Testament is actually full of slavery because the old Hebrews kept slaves.
As did actually the early Christians in the Roman Empire
Jason Barrett: been around for a long
Rupert Isaacson: time.
Slaves, sometimes they kept slaves.
But point being, you understand what I'm saying?
There has been a really toxic relationship with compassion, anti compassion, really
through the Southern Baptist Church.
But you clearly have had a, an, an experience with it that
was completely the opposite.
I find that intriguing.
Why do you think that was
Jason Barrett: one?
I was 12.
So these thoughts and these contemplations, but they
were clearly these thoughts would've been there at the time.
Two, obviously like everything, it's made up of individuals with different character
and different principles, and you can't throw out the baby with the bath water.
Hmm.
So, that's, I guess that's it For me, it was just, that's just who I was.
I was about, my family was full of love.
There was no abuse.
And my immediate family where there were and degenerations before where there
was trauma and stuff, and my immediate household, my parents protected us.
We were loved.
We had family and friends.
So, to be.
There, the church, that was it.
I went, it was a comforting place and all that as I grew and learned
more and more about things.
And actually one of the biggest things that, that kind of, well, there was,
there's plenty, there's plenty of things to shake your mind on the
formulation of human's idea of, of religion but in all its aspects.
But the actual camp that we're talking about, camp Smile was
based out of a campgrounds that was known as the Baptist Assembly.
It was owned and operated by them, and so it was a charitable venture.
So growing up I'm just like, oh, this is great.
They're helping these people and we're doing this thing and this camp,
you know, as I grew up, later on I realized that that, well, that cost a.
Shit ton of money.
They're, they're making bank down here in this tiny little town
where there is no other option.
And it's, and all, all the efforts to keep these programs alive.
At that time, it wasn't backed by any larger groups.
Now it's backed by United Cerebral Palsy and they run and they're well
funded and, and all that stuff.
So back then it was grassroots still.
And so every dime was going to pay this place off, and none of the
investment that went back into the property helped the camp at all.
For instance, a building was built without wheelchair regulations, so you
couldn't fit all the campers in and out of air and the shower houses and stuff.
Ridiculous.
So anyway, long story short.
There's plenty of bad in each of the religions I've, I've visited.
So, so yeah.
So for me, that was it.
There was I didn't have any other situations I knew of in that church.
There was a problem with a pastor who had messed, who had defiled a child or
there was a, there was an issue late.
I mean, it's just disgusting.
You hear it all the time and it's, it's, it's disheartening.
But at the same time, in that building, there are mothers and families who
are loving and accepting and trying to help their kids grow and don't
think an ill thought about anyone.
So I find that to be true.
Most places I go, unfortunately, the ugly stuff sticks out and you have to
pay attention to it because it may be a part of the whole program, you know?
But
Rupert Isaacson: you, you say a particular youth pastor that
you had was not like that.
He was actually a particularly good.
Person,
Jason Barrett: particularly Good person.
Yeah.
A sweet spirit.
You know, when you meet somebody that has a sweet spirit, that has a kind
spirit, a kind disposition and he was, that, he was, he was young at the time.
I think he was probably only in his early twenties recently married.
He was married.
While it was just a, a sweet guy.
I actually met him years later.
I, I found him.
We had, I took him to lunch to tell him how much I appreciated him making
that moment or seeing whatever he did and said that to me and how much
it's developed and how it's helped me build and grow my family and, and
the network of acquaintances we have that are as close as family, so.
Mm-hmm.
So yeah, he was, he was a genuine guy.
He in that, he was one of the guys who brought out that situation
against one of the pastors that had happened in the place.
So it was tough.
It was a tough thing then.
I was a child.
I knew nothing about it.
Heard things later on.
But it seems to be pretty normal everywhere.
Yeah.
So I.
I gave up the organized religion thing a while ago.
I, I believe there's something amazing and bigger out there, but I'm not
smart enough to tell you or anybody else what it is, so we keep looking.
Well, at
Rupert Isaacson: what point did you, you know, I, I want to go in obviously
to the career that you've had and how you've built this, this incredible world
that you, you have with this thing called equestrian chaos, which is of course,
actually anything but chaotic, because yeah, it requires ridiculous amounts of
structure, but it's a spectacular, a lot of organizations thing that you guys do.
But just before we start going to how you and Sise put that together
and made a go of it at what point did you move away from religion?
Because, you know, it, it can be very difficult when you
grow up with those supports.
To not become really attached to them just culturally.
Mm-hmm.
And also from a point of view of, you know, safety or perceived
safety, you know, security, perceived security and that sort of thing.
It, it, it's, it's difficult to leave.
What was the process?
I
Jason Barrett: think first I'd have to say our relationship
with the church was casual.
In, in the beginning it was, I mean, we were there.
I was, I was young and, and filled with the Holy Spirit and everything
that was going on in the room.
But my family's relationship was fairly casual with the church.
So we weren't every Sunday goers and all that stuff.
Me,
Rupert Isaacson: so you, you, you are very much in this
church-based thing from 12 to 20.
But yet at a certain point, you away from it, right?
The church thing
Jason Barrett: faded.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm back, back with you.
The church thing sort of faded during those years as a teenager would grow and,
and do things that a teenager would enjoy to do that go against the, the Holy Bible.
But but so that, there was a little decline there.
And, but still that was in my heart, you know?
It was, it was a desire, you know, I wanted people to have the best thing
in the world and the best thing in the world was going to heaven, you know?
Yeah.
That's what I, that's what I learned.
Why would you not wanna do that?
That's the best thing you could have, is to end your life in paradise.
So that was that was it.
But like I said, it, it faded away.
Really wasn't much of a consequence on becoming a graduate.
Parents divorced.
I'm kind of doing my own thing back and forth out of college.
And then I I had a instance where a guy knocked on my door.
One of Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on the door, he said to me.
So just, we're just walking through the neighborhood and talking today about,
you know, where do you see the state of the world and it, where it's going.
And I said, well, I, I think it's it's good, but it's kind of rough now.
It's probably gonna get worse and it'll get a lot better.
And that was my, it's get him out the door finish this conversation quickly.
And he was like, oh man, that's a very insightful thing.
Anyway, that conversation led to two years of studying the scriptures with this guy.
Couple days a week.
How old?
I was 18.
Okay.
18, 19 or so.
Then
Rupert Isaacson: the Jehovah's Witnesses got you for a while?
Jason Barrett: Oh yeah, they got me for a little bit.
Sure did.
So we studied the Bible a little bit and that's when the pictures
of religion started to crumble.
What I liked about.
That is that they were doing the work that I had heard all these churches were
supposed to be doing the whole time I was in church where they were actually
walking around and really talking to people at telling 'em about Jesus and
how great life was, stuff like that.
So that was appealing that they were actually doing the work.
I was sort of in turmoil 'cause I wasn't sure where I was gonna go from there.
University was a drag, you know?
I did not enjoy the things I was learning at the time.
Didn't seem to have a place to go with it.
I wanted to be an occupational therapist.
And then I did some work in the field and realized that turned
into very specific work that you do over and over again forever.
So that appeal was gone.
So anyway, so then I decided I'd help people find their way to forever.
So then I started with the Jehovah's Witness preaching and teaching.
I did that for about two years.
Moved to Georgia.
Where I did this, walking through the streets, held Bible studies with
folks and, and and as much as I look back at that and go, yeah, that's just
another religion created by men after the fact, the lessons I learned at
that time, I would've hate to give up.
I learned to speak to people under.
The worst circumstances.
You know, you're going door to door speaking interpersonally with
folks, giving lectures in big halls.
All the things that came to be something that would be a valuable contribution
to my family and my life in the future.
Were nailed in strong in two years.
You know, you, you walk up to somebody's who door who doesn't
wanna talk about the Bible.
That's, that's a tough conversation.
And you walk up to somebody's door who wants to talk about the Bible?
That's a tough conversation.
You gotta, there's a lot that could happen in between there.
So, so yeah, what a, what a learning opportunity that was for me.
But in the big picture of religion and all that stuff, it just boiled down to
these are, these are, you know, men's, they're taking a stab at things older
than everything they know, and decisions and words passed down through generations
by mouth before they ever hit the pen.
It, it just all kind of flows the same.
So from then on, I, I, I vowed to, engage my surroundings.
Everything in my world that I could touch or influence.
There's, there's, there's my religion, there's my spirituality.
I want to give much.
But How did you, how did you go?
Rupert Isaacson: The Jehovah's Witnesses don't like to let people go.
How did you, how did you get away from that?
Jason Barrett: You know,
Rupert Isaacson: there's a lot of,
Jason Barrett: there's a lot of stories in both directions about how things work.
It was very simple.
I just didn't go anymore.
It was no, there was no lockdown procedures or things like that.
What
Rupert Isaacson: was the deciding factor?
For me, the
Jason Barrett: deciding factor was well, the contemplations that I
was having about, okay, where does, where do the roots of this go?
What drew me in was the tight-knit community, the appreciation for
learning and for understanding, for actually doing the work.
That's what, that's what drew me in.
I even traveled to London with a family, stayed there for a while,
and learned same thing regardless of what continent we were on.
They had a similar thing.
There was lots of dark things in there too that I've learned over the
years afterwards or have heard about.
But anyway, that was what drew me in the beginning.
That's what it was.
It was a good community and they were teaching and doing, doing the stuff
they said they were gonna be doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
But what then made you think you wanted to leave?
Jason Barrett: That was when I was realizing that all of these things are
just, are just the contemplations of men.
You know, these things.
It doesn't matter how you get there.
It doesn't matter if they're right or they're wrong.
They could be.
And they came from the thoughts of men trying to organize ideas that
were too big for them to grasp.
And that's, that began it.
And then I saw in that particular situation, there was a friend of mine
that was working for a guy who was, I didn't like those situations so well.
I thought he was kind of being taken advantage of.
And I said, you know what?
I think we're just right back at square one again.
So, we're out.
Okay.
And that was it.
That was, that was the end of it.
Rupert Isaacson: And then, then you're twenties, so you went,
did you go off to college?
Jason Barrett: I did.
I went to college for a little while at University of South Alabama.
And then after I left the witnesses, I started in the corporate world
went to like I mentioned, I wanted to do occupational therapy.
Found out that wasn't it.
I got a job right after working with the witnesses with Kohl's department
stores, traveling the country and setting up new stores and new areas and stuff.
So that was great.
I got a taste of travel, but then that became the same thing as everything else.
Retail, you're filling shelves with shit so that people can
pick it up and throw it away.
So I just can't see where that could be satisfying life for me.
Anyway, so that had to go.
And then of course, I, I decided to it's a wildlife.
I've changed a lot of things.
So from there I decided that I needed to be interacting with people.
I wanted to help people individually again, so I decided
to be a massage therapist.
However actually a, a, a note that I am proud of.
During that time with Kohls, I was able to, when it was getting
depressing to be in that type of work lifestyle, I was able to integrate a
special needs program at the store.
Okay.
So we were able to bring in employees with special needs.
Had a guy with Down syndrome and a guy with traumatic brain
injury and a guy with autism.
They, they were able to come in the store and they were working
with a local organization there.
But that ended up working out and even 15 years later, one of those
guys still had his job at that store.
So it was pretty cool.
We did a couple of foundation walks, met some really beautiful people.
And, and more importantly than that, I got people in the store accustomed
to being around those people with special needs and finding something
cool about 'em, you know, where they could slap PI five and, and be in a
store with people that worked there for 15 years and have a relationship.
So that was really fun.
So that was a little touch back into the special needs department while
I was trying to find myself again.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so
tell us now.
What you do now, and then we're gonna backtrack to how you got that going.
In a nutshell, tell us what you do.
So now, if we scratch
Jason Barrett: everything I've just told you, we are a traveling, performing
family through equestrian chaos.
I am the mc from my family.
We perform on stage doing horseback, archery, and
acrobatics around the country.
We're in our fourth year of coast to coast national travels.
All that spawned from the heart of everything we do.
Alisa's School of the Equestrian Arts our therapeutic horseback riding program.
And equestrian Chaos was just the backyard fundraiser for
that ended up saving the day.
So right now we both run both equestrian chaos and incredible
trick riding troop and archery troop that travels the country.
And we run Ali School Equestrian Arts and innovative therapeutic
horseback riding program that marries trick riding and performance
arts with therapeutic horseman.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And you, the mc and of course the person that you know,
organizes it and keeps going.
In that story you told us about childhood, adolescence and early adulthood.
I didn't hear anything about horses.
Jason Barrett: Not a drop.
There were two stories.
We were at a party, a barn party, and one of my buddies says, Hey, you
think we could ride those horses?
So we hopped on the horses and came off very quickly.
And then one other time I was trying to date a girl and she had horses,
so I went for a ride with her.
Same result truck flew by on the road, horse jumped.
I came off and walked my way back to the bar to find the horse and the girl.
But that was it.
So yeah, horses were a new concept to me when I met my beautiful bride.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
So
Jason Barrett: talk to us about that.
So that would take us back to leaving a job that was, not for
me, for something I wanted to do.
I wanted to help people.
So I decided to become a massage therapist.
Another, another line which again helped me incredibly later on.
So I, I took a job went to a school in Florida near Orlando, who was
owned by the parent company that owns all the spas on the cruise ships.
So I had an idea to travel internationally to find the next step while I was
doing something I could enjoy doing.
That was the whole plan.
Everything was set and done.
That was where it was going to go, and it started that direction,
but it didn't finish there.
So I flew down to Orlando, started training found a job at the Dolly Parton,
Dixie Stampede no longer called such.
'cause those words are bad, but,
and what was
Rupert Isaacson: the Dolly?
Partons Dixie Stampede.
And why'd you get a job?
So it's a's.
It was a dinner show.
Jason Barrett: It was a, it was a theater Dinner show
was Stampede.
Definitely.
So Massage Therapy school during the day, working at the Stampede at night.
I was a waiter there.
They were a huge theater.
Oh.
So it was like a dinner show?
It was a dinner theater.
Massive dinner theater.
And it was an equestrian show.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Jason Barrett: it was an equestrian show.
Yeah.
They did a north, north versus the south type of trick riding and flags
and dance and all kinds of stuff.
That's, that's the way it ran.
And, and Sise was a performer in there, and I, I noticed her very quickly from
the stands above as she was riding around.
And so we made our acquaintance and turned that into a hot and
heavy eight month romance with, with our own plans and intentions.
She had painted the backdrop for an a seventh generation Italian circus family,
and was planning to go on the road with their youngest troops heading out.
And I had made arrangements in London to train and travel the world.
So we took off willing to separate and leave our lives behind for the new
lives we had in different directions.
Different directions, completely.
So I make it to London.
And on a payphone I found out there's a bun in the oven.
She, we've got a little baby cooking down there in mama's belly.
So we had no intention of getting back together and at the time, you know,
finding that, that news very striking and quite uncomfortable considering I'd
sold my car and moved to, we were gone.
Total separation.
So, anyway, it was a tough time.
Finding that beautiful bit of information out can sometimes be
tough and it was tough for us.
So we didn't want to commit to each other just because of that.
We wanted to commit to each other for the reasons of love and a desire
to live together and strive for it.
So we didn't make that commitment right away.
But I did return, got my contract cut short.
We met each other in Tampa, Florida, where she was living at the time.
And that's about it.
That's pretty much the transition where we brought it to mobile and
began building everything we have.
So we were in Tampa, big city, not the place for us.
I knew the connections I had here in mobile with some incredible
people and opportunities.
So I took us, we, we, we sold everything we had at a yard sale.
This is fun.
We made 1300 bucks.
We had a Honda element that she had bought on the a earlier before I
come back from the cruise ship, we bought a $900 two horse trailer.
We piled everything we had into the back of the Honda Element, hooked up a trailer
and two horses, and drove to mobile to see what we could do on 1300 bucks.
So that was the start of our adult life.
And you with
Rupert Isaacson: no horse experience,
Jason Barrett: zero horse experience whatsoever, but
Rupert Isaacson: you found yourself hooked to a very driven and
organizationally minded, horse person.
Jason Barrett: Oh yeah, sure, sure.
I did.
You know so well.
Yeah.
We had a, we had a plan.
She had everything organized.
We had, we had no, yeah, not none of that.
There was no plan.
We had, as you could tell, the life just keeps changing from one Yeah.
Interesting dimension to the next.
So this was the next, so I brought her home.
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.
Also as a, she's, she's at this stage a performer.
Equestrian performer.
Well, that's not gonna happen when you're pregnant, and it might not happen
for a while after the baby arrives.
So what was the plan economically at that point?
Jason Barrett: Economically was come back and I'd work as a massage
therapist, she'd, we'd get side jobs.
We had a connection through camp that was happy to have us come and, and have
our horses on their property for a while.
The camp mom came through, get self established camp,
came through again, connect.
Yeah.
Camp Staple, the horses.
These,
yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
There was a, one of the old camp moms that was a mother of one of the guys
that was same age I was at the time.
She had a husband that was a horseman.
They had a property and a farm with plenty of room and two horses wasn't too much.
So we came back and knowing nothing, we pull into the yard at two o'clock in the
morning way late, you know, about four or five hours late the first time we met
'em, you know, in, in 10 years or so.
That's kind of the way we rolled.
We had no idea what we were doing.
We just kept pushing and, and made it happen and, and found incredible
people to help us along the way.
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
people with neurodivergence, either who are professionals in the field.
Are you a therapist?
Are you a caregiver?
Are you a parent?
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
I really didn't know what to do.
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
Temple Grandin.
And she told me what to do.
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings.
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
approach, it's called Movement Method.
You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply.
It's almost laughably simple.
The important thing is to begin.
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
Grandin and see what results can follow.
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
com Sign up as a gold member.
Take the online movement method course.
It's in 40 countries.
Let us know how it goes for you.
We really want to know.
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
Okay.
Now I know your daughter Marley.
And I think we can all agree that it's a very good thing
that she came into the world.
Damns an incredible performer.
On horseback.
She's also an incredibly talented musician.
And just a general all round, you know, radically amazing person.
And of course is a, a big part of, of your family business.
How did equestrian chaos begin and how did you get something that really shouldn't
be economically viable unless your Dolly Parton can put a couple of million into
it and then probably still just walk away with 1 million of the two that you put in?
How did this come about and how did you make it work?
Jason Barrett: Nothing happened just from our efforts.
We've had a great.
Community of people involved in what we've done so that there is credit
to be given and, and making great relationships, you know, and taking the
time to care about people enough that they in turn care about you and that
it's you, you see purpose together.
So yeah, between family and the people have helped grow it.
That's, that's, that's where that was.
But equestrian chaos became what it was actually as a saving.
I mean, it became the saving grace of everything we were doing.
We, we began as Ali's School of Equestrian Arts before we were a nonprofit.
And, it started first taking Kristen to Camp Smile again.
So when we first moved back to Mobile, as mentioned, I took her to Camp Smile.
We had her do some tricks on her, on her horse.
Oh, like a performance for the kids, for the campers.
Yeah.
We did a little performance across the field for the campers, maybe
three or four runs, doing some tricks while they were out there.
They loved it and everything.
It was, it was a great opportunity.
It gave me the chance to, to show her and have my daughter
in the place that built me.
Okay.
So that was a very important moment.
And then the next year it.
They were able to leave that Baptist assembly facility by the
grace of another family in town.
The Davis and Debbie Pilot family, they offered this remarkable campground
to them and four other camps.
They're very affluent family here in town.
And, and they made this new campground available, 200 acres well built, put
together everything that you could need accessible bathhouses, just,
they sunk a ton of money into making this beautiful place for these camps.
And, and that's where we did a lot of our work for nearly 14 years.
So, those, those those places were built.
And then, as, as the camp died off there.
The the horseback rider, which this is something we could get into
too, is horseback camp programs.
Man, they're tough to run.
Yeah, they're so the camp was changing changing properties and
the, the director of the horseback program couldn't make it happen.
So we got the calls Sessie, the mentor I mentioned before, called me and said,
Hey, do you think you guys could do this?
You know, I was like, I'm sure she can.
I was working somewhere else that time.
She's capable, she could do it, you know, I'll help.
So, and she had had some relationship and, and interaction
with the special need population.
She had a cousin that she grew up with in the po and so she, she knew, but she
hadn't had that day to day lifestyle.
Whatever happens, everything goes, there's a way to work around it that,
that I had developed in that area.
So that worked out really well.
So we got into, we got into the program there.
That's how we started.
And had no idea about business or the cost of horsemanship or anything at that point?
Absolutely no idea.
No idea which would turn around to bite us in the ass.
Big time, a couple years down the road.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
You know,
how did it turn?
How did it bite you in the ass?
Jason Barrett: Well, you don't know what to expect.
You don't know what to ask for any, any new venture without market
research and knowing what it is.
And when you're in such an niche, niche area, there's not a lot of market research
for what we would do and how we would grow that and how it works seasonally.
What do you do in the off times and these things?
So, for an entire week of.
Programming at a camp where we would use 15 to 20 horses, we would
see a hundred special needs or disabled children or adults per week.
And we'd go on a mile and a quarter trail ride around a lake.
We, we went big.
I mean, we went really big.
We gave everything that we had at the time and that, and that with about
12 volunteers trained a couple months beforehand and kept up with throughout
the year so they know what they're do.
That was a $3,000 week,
and it's embarrassing to say that we thought that could actually work.
You know, years later we found out we were actually spending money from our rest of
our budget just to keep the camps going.
Yeah.
I'm sure when we finally learned to, to count it and ask and count the
cost and, and look forward we were like, wow, this is not sustainable.
That was about the time when we we're we, but it's also a passion.
We needed it to happen.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And a learning curve and apprenticeship,
Jason Barrett: learning curve, all that stuff.
But it was, it had to happen.
It was, it was so good, so good at the place, you know, we're gonna
keep working and make it happen.
And we, we negotiated to change things, but you know, when you come in, you come
in and it's all for nonprofits and they're supposed to be nonprofit organizations
and nobody makes money, right?
You just falls out of the air and works in the programs.
So that's the impression that a lot of people get.
But that wasn't the case.
We were we were running dry.
We had big programs through the year where we'd have 50, we'd do a
spring, winter, and fall session at home where we had our own therapeutic
riding program that was running.
And even with 50 regular students at, at times, three instructors half of those at
times were in special needs population.
We could not make ends meet.
We were just, the only reason that we made it work was because of the
generosity of the family that I mentioned that gave us a property after seeing
the work we did at those campgrounds.
Mm.
With those populations.
And seeing, actually seeing equestrian chaos show our first shows out
there, he was a horse minded person and he thought it was incredible.
He said one of his comments were, you know, when you're looking to
invest in something, you want to find something that you've never seen before.
You know, that was one of the things he said.
And this was something he definitely never seen before.
So with the things we had and the fit, it was absolutely perfect.
Him and his family offered us this beautiful property to start our program.
Eight Stall Barn, beautiful little house.
And we lived on that property raising our family.
For 12, 12 years we were on that property.
Amazing opportunity.
Rupert Isaacson: However, I remember I visited you on that property.
Yeah, it was, it was, it was lovely with the big oaks.
Jason Barrett: Absolutely.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: You knew nothing about horses.
I know.
You suddenly go into the specialist end of professional horsemanship serving
special needs, which is a specialist thing that takes lots of training by itself.
And usually people get into that after they've already got a couple of days,
decades of horsemanship under their belt.
Because as we know, the dangers are huge.
How did you accelerate that learning curve
Jason Barrett: experience?
Well, we went right at the need was there, and there was
no one else to fill the need.
So on the one hand, I guess least
Rupert Isaacson: your wife could, could mentor you to a large degree.
Jason Barrett: She filled the need for the, she's an incredible horseman.
I mean, she's, yeah, she
Rupert Isaacson: is.
Jason Barrett: She's, she's been at it for a long time.
She's passionate, she's connected to the animals.
She, she just knows things that I don't pick up or see 'cause
of her lifetime of experience.
Mm-hmm.
Although I've learned, I learned a lot.
You know, there's a lot more to learn.
But yeah, so she, she was all of that, everything that we needed for horses.
She could be that we needed to calm horses.
We needed rhythmic horses.
We didn't know at the time, but the rhythmic horses that we were
used to training for the, for the performances and the work we did
she did was were just right and I knew how to communicate and to work.
Very closely with the community and the family.
I've had years of over a decade of experience already in that realm.
Mm-hmm.
So the two coming together was, was perfect.
And under the, the, like I said, under the mentorship of CEESI, the director
of Camp Smile at the time, she brought Kristen in, and after that first.
We did a first trial year just to kind of work with it.
We'd already been working with some kids and it went great.
We had a great summer season with them.
And then so then she worked it out with, as the camp had been purchased,
our, our owned now by United Cerebral Palsy, she worked out a grant for
her to go to Equest and trained in the Path International Program.
Right.
That was then it was named something else, but it's become Path International.
It's called
Rupert Isaacson: NARA back then.
Yeah,
Jason Barrett: yeah.
Nara, yeah, that's exactly what it was.
So that's where she trained other, she became the first PATH certified instructor
in Mobile, Alabama when we came back.
Okay.
So that's where we started.
Then she got her credentials there.
My knowledge was all experiential.
I, I'd been there, lived there, done that.
So I was key in training our people on how to treat the
population as one of their own.
You know, there's, you can only go so far with gloves on, you know?
Yes.
You have to be in the mix.
You know, it only gets so personable when you're still
wearing the blue rubber gloves.
So, you need to know how to talk and feel and, and help others be
comfortable around these loud noises or erratic actions and things like that.
It's very uncomfortable for people.
I didn't know that because I grew up as a child engulfing, you
know, there's drool falling on me.
We gotta clean up a diaper, somebody laugh because, I mean, it didn't matter
to me, which was, which was something I had to learn that it really didn't
matter to a lot of other people.
Those things kind of set 'em back a little bit.
Rupert Isaacson: I, with all my experience with autism and so on, I
still shy away, you know, if I never see another diaper in my life, I'm,
Jason Barrett: I'm good.
I'm good.
Hey, look, I'm fine with that too.
Don't get me wrong.
I'm not signing up for diaper change, but if it's gotta be done, we'll get it done.
Yeah.
So, yeah, that was it.
So we came back, we started the program there.
Running our program at home.
We were not making ends meet though we were making enough to survive.
Hmm.
It's kind of like the, you know, it's the, the blessing
and the curse, the golden egg.
You know, if it's always there, do you have the drive to strive
further than, than what's set?
So we had that beautiful place to, to be provided for us.
It made all of our budgeting make believe, you know, in the real world.
So we had to adjust for that.
And then when we started to try and adjust costs and pricing from that to try to be,
there was no chance to bridge that gap.
So we were pretty close.
And then then the COVID, the COVID came, ah, that was our big switch up.
That really switched things for us.
Rupert Isaacson: So what happened?
What did you do?
Because the whole business must have collapsed.
Yeah.
Jason Barrett: Yeah, it was huge.
I mean, all, most of our programming was large group oriented programming.
You know, we couldn't be in large groups anymore, so we lost all of our
spring and fall camps all of our summer camp programming and all in all, and
over three years, we, we, we ended up operating at a third of our budget,
which if we were not in that home, there would've been, it was done deal.
And it was close to the point of being a done deal.
As nothing was coming online fast enough.
The horses gotta stay, keep eating.
We've got 10 horses at the time, 10, 12 horses at the time.
So that was tough.
We were still doing, so 2019, we did our last as I mentioned, e equestrian chaos
was the fundraiser, backyard fundraiser for our therapeutic riding school.
We'd make, you know, a thousand dollars.
What did you
Rupert Isaacson: do in this backyard fundraiser, because this
has gone on to become a huge show.
So
Jason Barrett: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: tell us about this.
Backyard fundraiser, sequestering chaos,
Jason Barrett: Paper mache masks and kids hopping around over
each other's back at, at a camp.
That's just the silliest little playful thing.
Introducing horses for those who could start to ride.
And, and eventually we, we have a team of, you know, at our biggest
show, 15, 15 to 16 members on the stage, and half of those are part of
our rr Therapeutic writing students.
So we, it began very slow.
It was like a, it was the it was the, the fun and excitement of the do good work
that kept, kept people coming back, you know, for more so our, our volunteers.
Would you putting
Rupert Isaacson: special needs kids into an equestrian circus performance many
people would say this can't be done.
Others would say it's too dangerous.
How did you do it and how did you do it safely?
Jason Barrett: My wife is incredible for one.
So she, she, she did a lot working together.
You just take your time.
It's little steps, baby steps.
So, for instance, we have one of our students was autistic and he was he
is, he is a hitter or runner, you know, he likes to, likes to smack
and get out of the way at times.
Lash out and then un split.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's quick shot and then gone.
And the man, he talk about a runner, man, you gotta, you
gotta work, catch that dude.
But that we would work at time, you'd find something he liked, you'd find
he happened to like hot Cheetos.
So we'd sit him on a horse and hold out a bag of hot Cheetos and he'd reach down low
and start to work on the, the abdominal side muscles to worry about actually
being able to stand up on a moving horse and move his leg off the saddle.
Lots of little baby steps starting at
Rupert Isaacson: And what did you eventually get him?
What did you eventually get him doing?
Jason Barrett: He did, he performed in the show.
He was in our last performance he was standing on the horse in
what they call the Hippodrome.
So he is standing on the, on the shoulders of the horse, is feeding some
straps tall above the sky in a full extension with lights and sound and
everything jamming around the arena.
The horse going in a
Rupert Isaacson: run
Jason Barrett: in a run in a circle around you.
Be
Rupert Isaacson: incredible.
Jason Barrett: And this is someone who's barely verbal.
He's nonverbal.
Yeah, absolutely nonverbal.
It's certainly incredible.
Even I is
Rupert Isaacson: a special needs dad who runs equestrian programs.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Looking on in impressed, flabbergasted.
Yeah.
You guys could do.
I remember when I brought Rowan, my son out to you guys in 2019.
And Ali and the team Brooke, you know, is also part of
your team who's so incredible.
Shout out to Brooke.
I had my son standing up.
On the back of a horse.
And this is a, despite the fact that, you know, he's grown up
with horses around me, he has the normal sort of autistic anxiety.
Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And but the little micro structured micro steps that
Sise and Brooke took him through, and then the absolute rock solid training
that was in that horse, that there was just no question in anyone's mind
that one could trust this animal.
Was like something I, you know, I, I, I travel in 40 countries
doing trainings all the time.
You just don't see this, you know.
Jason Barrett: We're aware now, you know, it's, it's always that adage, you,
you, you don't, you can't see yourself, you don't see your children grow up.
They're right there with you.
All of a sudden they're grown up.
It's the same thing with this type of work.
It's, for us, it is so normal and so possible.
It's hard to imagine someone thinking it's not possible.
Yeah.
Which, which is, you know, a different, it's hard to see both sides of that
coin, you know, when you've already been to this side of it's just a
matter of slow steps and, and taking your time and following their lead.
Much like you've learned in all of your work.
It's all about following them.
Rupert Isaacson: It is and
Jason Barrett: following, finding who they are and what they're attracted to
Rupert Isaacson: following their and for us, their passion.
Yeah.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
You gotta have their passion and, and, and it's got to it's got to engage them.
It has to engage them.
And what we found a lot of times in our ther therapeutic writing program
is that, yeah, we'd be good for a few weeks, maybe a few months, maybe
even a whole year, but eventually it wasn't enough to keep them engaged.
Some, some could do the same thing over and over forever.
Yeah.
But many would lose interest, or especially if they were on the autism
spectrum or, or a DHD really high, high functioning, high energy, you know,
those people needed something more.
I some agree.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one, one of the difficulties that I so often
encounter with the whole therapeutic writing thing is that it's, it's boring.
You know, it's, it's dumbed down.
I mean, who wants to be led around in circles slowly,
Jason Barrett: right.
Rupert Isaacson: For more than a few times.
Jason Barrett: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: And then if it's not gonna develop into anything, well,
yeah, you're probably gonna let it go.
And then, you know, the work we do with.
Veterans and so on.
And you know, you get someone back from ex special forces guy back
from a hot zone and you tell him to put a helmet on for safety.
Yeah, yeah.
And lead him or her around in a slow circle and they're just
laughing at you, you know?
It only goes so
Jason Barrett: far like no wife.
Yeah.
That's, that's, that's that's the way it is.
I think that people intend well but there's another horrible consequence of it
being boring is that the horses get bored.
Rupert Isaacson: As you may know, if you've been following my work,
we are also horsey folk here.
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
the old classical dressage masters.
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and
really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
com Sign up as a premium member.
and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground.
And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to.
Heliosharmony.
com to unlock the secrets of the old masters.
Jason Barrett: They do.
I mean, the horses lose enthusiasm as well.
These are living creatures just like us.
They gotta have a purpose and a reason as well.
And, and if you live with them enough, you actually know that firsthand.
Yeah.
So for us.
I mean, without our herd.
I mean, fortunately Kristen is an incredible horse person, and she had that
training for the type of circus riding the rhythmic movement of the horse that is
required to accomplish all the other feats that you would see them do on a stage.
Was just the basic, you know, we came here and put a, put a hay ground, hay
hay ringing on the ground and we're free lunging horses in a hay ringing out there.
And everyone in town is like, what the hell?
How do you do that?
Why is your horse not jumping out of the hay ringing or
stepping over the hay ringing?
And it, and for me not being a horsepower, I didn't know
what they were talking about.
I didn't know you had to have a round pin with walls and panels.
I was like, our horses do that in this circle.
It is perfectly fine.
So there is a measure of training that matters.
You know, we, we, yeah, we have, they were just incredible.
She did a wonderful job with our legacy herd, that first one that started us.
It's so sad watching them.
It's sad and fulfilling watching them move into the retirement life.
'cause we're at that point where we're transitioning to the next herd and Yeah.
And the work that they've done was just incredible.
Without the horses, there's nothing.
There was
Rupert Isaacson: nothing.
No.
A hundred, I wholeheartedly agree.
But yet the skill levels are insane.
So just for, to paint a picture for listeners and viewers.
When you go and see an equestrian chaos show, and I think you might
wanna Google equestrian chaos, what you're gonna see is badass shit.
You're gonna see this team of expert girl riders doing mounted archery,
but really difficult mounted archery while in the craziest positions
on running horses accurately.
And then you're gonna see them pull all kinds of stunts that are incredibly
dangerous in life threatening.
And yet you're gonna see them Roman riding, standing on the back of two
horses doing extraordinary things.
And then you're gonna see them bringing special needs people into the show.
It's a mindblower.
And one of the things which has been so rewarding for me, kind of
cheering you guys from the sidelines.
I'm sort of feel like a bit of a little cheerleader with my pompoms is you've
now achieved this level of success where you travel nationally with this show as
well as maintaining this program at home.
How did it, how did it transform from this backyard of, I know
COVID happened, you had to rethink.
Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: But that was it.
But you suddenly achieved a kind of level of success, which many
aspire to, I think, but few achieve.
Well, how did you, how did you do it?
Jason Barrett: I, I, you have to venture outside of your
comfort zone and where you start.
For sure.
Well, indeed, but give
Rupert Isaacson: us, give
Jason Barrett: us, that's a big part actually.
How, so?
The reason where that matters is that we didn't know what we had here.
We didn't know how spectacular what we were doing was, we really didn't.
We knew it was great, but we grew it around our family and friends who just
saw, oh, that's what you do, you know, that's what you're doing out there.
You know, so there's a girl hanging upside down from one foot, shooting
a bow and hitting the target.
Well, you know, they do that all the time.
So this was our back, this was our everyday life and everyone that we knew
in this small town of 200,000 that that would be around to see it, there was
no real growth or excitement there.
The minute COVID hit and we had to shut down our programs
with the therapeutic writing.
We took our act to a circus as an act.
We put it in the show, and then from.
A real performance audience.
An audience who came for paid professional performances, they went nuts.
You know, they thought it was absolutely incredible.
The performers we were working with, they thought it was incredible.
They, you know, it was like we pulled things off that they
didn't think would happen.
If something looked like it was going to go wrong, it was fixed.
You know, we're very, we run a tight ship, aside from the chaos in the name
we expect our show to be like clockwork.
We're gonna, yeah.
The chaos
Rupert Isaacson: comes from the, the audience sitting on the edge of their
seat, you know, expecting a wreck.
Jason Barrett: They don't know what they're about to see it.
No one knows it.
We've found on the road that even if you go, so we're online everywhere.
Equestrian, chaos equestrian chaos.com
is our website.
We've got a video, talks about our family and some really cool vi There's
lots of stuff out there, but traveling around the country, we've come to find
that at any location we go to, it's a two to three year lull before they
actually figure out what the hell they're
on
the stage.
So we'll have, it's been really exciting.
This in our third year in some of our locations, people are showing up.
So we'll do a series of two to four shows a day depending on what
we're, what we're engaged with.
And that first show is generally lagging a little bit.
But not anymore.
Now people know who we are and we're showing up at the very first show.
They're just packed out with people and, and they, they've come to see it.
So it's really neat.
So in that vein, while we were home, you got, there was none of that.
Yeah.
The minute we went out to the circus, we heard that.
We're like, wow, that's something.
Then we got a job for the, somebody called us.
We got a job for another fair.
We went and tried that blew their minds.
That's when we had I think that was the first one.
We had a lady walk up to the side of the arena after the show.
And she was in her seventies and she was, she was a stout
woman, an intimidating woman.
Like she could probably whoop my ass.
And and she had a grimace on her face and she came to the rail and,
and she was already tearing up, like trying to hold her grimace
for some reason, but still crying.
And she said she said you guys.
Have just put on display for me, a 70 year dream.
I was the first woman to ever compete in the United States and mounted horseback
archery when they didn't want us to ride.
And what you just did, as she's crying the whole time and I'm
like, damn, I had no idea.
You know, that's the connection I'm used to because of our life
with the work and the population.
We'll win.
You, you get to feel heart very often.
Mm-hmm.
In that population, when you give, you get it.
And so this was that under this new circumstance.
So for me that was a big moment big moment to credibly.
I don't know, just to impress on me how.
This can affect people, how people can take this art so deeply and
now since then, hundreds of other conversations similar to that children
just in awe and inspired to see you little girls looking at my daughter
out there absolutely killing it.
Thinking that, Hey, I could do that serious.
Yeah.
She's a role model for, you know, it's like, it's, it's just what a
life, you know, what a life, yeah.
In,
Rupert Isaacson: in terms of female empowerment, you know, because I
don't think you guys ever really started it with that in mind.
I think it's just, if can correct me if I'm wrong, but it was just
that those, that was the team you decided get, there's more horse.
It could have just as easily been some boys in the team.
It just happened not to be, but I think you guys have become a bit
of an icon of female empowerment.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
It's, it's it's exciting.
I mean, it's my, my.
My wife and my daughter out there.
And Brooke, as you mentioned Brooke Barre.
She leads our therapeutic writing programming.
Now.
She's a, a graduate of the University of South Alabama.
She's going into this therapeutic sports recreation.
Mm-hmm.
So she could continue this work from a preteen years.
I need question,
Rupert Isaacson: Equine Assisted World podcast, actually.
I think yeah.
Yeah.
She's,
Jason Barrett: she's just a beautiful person.
But to see her out there my wife and my daughter feeling that, and then
having the background of working with her and seeing the need in the world
from people and being willing to share that, it's a different, it's just
we've got a different thing going.
You know, there's, there's something, it's not just performance.
There's a whole lot of heart behind it that's been built for decades, you know?
Well, naturally,
Rupert Isaacson: because,
Jason Barrett: I mean,
Rupert Isaacson: you've got, it's really neat.
You've got, you know, you talked about this one autistic boy,
getting him to be standing up on the running horse and pulling stunts.
I remember seeing at your show, which you were actually still running as
a backyard fundraiser at that point.
Tim, the the, the, the African American young man who had
the traumatic brain injury.
And I, I watched you guys able to get him up in a Viking costume able to handle and
act with the staff and the, and the spear.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
He's an
Jason Barrett: incredible character, incredible guy.
We we love him and, and hopefully with the soundtrack of a rap
Rupert Isaacson: song that he had written,
Jason Barrett: he
Rupert Isaacson: had written Right.
You know, people just don't do this kind of thing.
You talk about heart.
Yeah, absolutely.
Alright, so just backtrack a little bit.
So you said COVID hit the it for a while, the therapeutic.
Program collapsed.
You've since rebuilt it.
Clearly.
Jason Barrett: We never, it never collapsed.
Okay.
It just shrunk to much smaller measures.
We have.
I mean, we've got kids that have been with us since they were in preschool, you know?
Oh yeah.
One of our girls is a professor now at the University of Florida.
Wow.
Know who started in our, in our program.
So we, we don't wanna lose anybody.
So a few of those people that, so here's question,
Rupert Isaacson: but, but you said you, you had to rethink.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
And you say you, you went to a circus.
Mm-hmm.
That sounds like there were a bunch of small steps that you've sort of left
out because it's hard thing to take.
One's act out there.
You didn't have a sort of existing track record of, I know, I know that Sise had
been riding in that equestrian show some years before and so on and so on, but it's
another thing to then go to a professional outfit and say, we need a job.
We're amazing.
Give us a job.
How, how did you do that?
Jason Barrett: Well, the, the connection with the family made that possible, and he
knew the quality of what we could produce.
And so that was an, that was an easy one.
We got lucky on the next one, the West Virginia Renaissance Festival.
We had a friend that suggested us to 'em.
They were a small fair and they wanted something new, so we went up and did it.
And they had no idea what they were getting.
They were very well pleased.
So, so yeah, so that, that was pretty much, it happened just that quickly.
Honestly, there was not a lot.
We were in a, we were in a very tough situation at the time.
The property that we were well, one, we were bottoming out in every direction.
We had spent every dime of our savings just to keep things going.
So it was, it was serious conversations about, Hey, did we get rid of some horses?
We try this again later.
That kind of thing.
Equestrian chaos saved Ali's school, equestrian arts.
We would have closed, we did not have to.
But once EC got on the road, we hit that next job.
Every job we've done, somebody saw us and wants us.
It's just that unique and that different, so that's, that's how fast.
What's your show
Rupert Isaacson: circuit currently?
Jason Barrett: Right now we do Florida to Oregon, Washington, Ohio, Texas.
I mean, it's a big loop.
I think we did 2,800 miles out to Oregon, Washington, 2,400 miles back
to Ohio, another thousand back here.
You know, a thousand down to Florida.
We're heading to Texas in a week and a half for three weekends out there.
Very soon.
That'll be another 900 miles or so.
So we are cooking.
The goal is to right now, it's just, it's just been amazing to be able to breathe.
Yeah, we've always, we've had some, we've had some help along the way for sure.
Some, some great help, but no.
Change your life.
Okay, you can do this now, help.
You know, we've got the funding and the budgeting to have employees.
We gotta, you know, that's never happened.
So we've always been earning it.
So then we turned around and to see equestrian chaos all of a sudden earn it.
And again, we're starting in a field we don't know.
You know, we've, there's all that.
I mean, people have been performing for 20 years to the point where we are
jumping in at, you know, at that level.
So we don't know what the rates are.
We don't know, you know, so we've so we've done very well in the last
three years finding out our value and our worth and pushing and, and
so in all, and in the long run.
The funding from Equestrian Chaos.
We take donations from every show that we do that goes directly to the
school, as well as our contract prices.
Everything funnels right back into the nonprofit organization to
try and keep it alive and going.
And we are making progress.
Finally, we're finally able to do some work on the new property.
We have a beautiful 20 acre property that we'll be able to develop now to put
the things we need in place to, to do the kind of work we were doing before.
But yeah, we still keep it going.
We have about 14 special needs students that come to our program.
When we're home, we want to cut our road time down.
Right now we're on the road better than eight months, which is too long.
We wanna do six and six and be able to keep it going and then eventually
have the staff we need to run both for the, at the same time so we can keep
the word going out, keep expanding the awareness, showing it off in a
big way, and then bringing it home and growing it deeper and bigger and better.
So it's exciting, it's fun.
It
Rupert Isaacson: is exciting.
So people listening and watching, I'm talking to you, listeners and watchers.
You can donate to equestrian chaos.
You can help them with their nonprofit special needs work
because what I've seen is
you set people free.
The mind blowing
with that, you know, that's not a flippant use of the word
I, radical life change that I've seen you guys bring into the lives of people who
had been written off, liked him after his.
Life shattering traumatic brain injury where he was, I know he was being
scouted, you know, as a pro football player or not from a wealthy family,
African American southern boy made good through football, getting scouted
on that track and then wham and, and
in a wheelchair for life and barely able to talk and unable to be independent.
And rocky, the impossible, nonverbal, autistic boy that you
got being a star in the show.
And numerous, numerous others that I've seen.
There just aren't many people out there
giving opportunities like this where it's not just like, you know, be the
best you can be and all those cliches.
It's, it's doing stuff that if you were able-bodied and neurotypical, you might
very, very well never be able to do.
That's a, that's a big bragging point for them.
Like that.
It's a massive bragging point.
And you should brag that, be Jesus out of it.
Because, you know, I, I, I see some good programs out there.
I've never seen anything like you guys.
Jason Barrett: Wow.
Rupert Isaacson: And you, not me, you know, in Texas they say I shack,
I shacked twice and fell down in it.
Jason Barrett: That's,
that's
very Texas.
Yeah.
Well, it, we feel that way.
We know, we've come to know that through it, we know the value of it.
We are excited to watch it grow.
Okay.
I mean, we're looking generationally, generationally now.
You know, my daughter's growing up, she's 18, Brooke is on her way.
You know, there is no reason we can't drive this thing to influence thousands
more lives in the same way that Tim felt like a superstar on top of that horse.
He's finally, he's on the stage, he's in the limelight again.
Yeah.
Even if it's just for a moment, anyone who's ever been there knows
that's a moment you hold onto.
It's one of the ones you talk about at the end of your days.
You know?
So we want those moments for as many people as we can get 'em.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Validation, self-belief.
You, so the obvious question now is, you know, where's it going?
This is one of the hottest shows, equestrian shows that's,
that's out there in the world.
Where's it?
What are you gonna do with it?
What's next?
Jason Barrett: We are continuing to, to book shows.
We are working to build enough shows in a shorter period where we can spend
more time at home growing the program.
While we are on the road though, we have programs where we do trainings.
We do we can do trainings for clinics.
If you're out there and you're therapeutic horseback riding program
may be dragging a little bit or it's not working the way you want, or you just
wanna try something spicy new, something different find us, keep in touch with us.
Once we settle into a place, a lot of the gigs that we do performing keep us in
an area for a month or two or or longer.
So that gives us opportunities.
And most of the time we perform are on the weekends.
So our hope is to get out there and to find other organizations that
need this kind of training and help.
We can bring programming in.
For you that's established that we've done show you ways to change things up, to
give new people an opportunity, maybe make you feel comfortable doing things that
you weren't before, helping train horses.
So we're looking to do a lot of that work on the road and even in the circuit,
I mean, we're traveling with other performers and vendors who travel the
same circuits and they have special needs population in those circuits.
So we have kids at each of the fairs that we work with in the time,
so they're getting an opportunity for something that they don't have
because of their transient lifestyle.
And horses are kind of a in one place thing, you know, for most people.
So, it's an opportunity for them to taste it.
Then we, they, we can bring 'em up through the ranks.
They can help with, we can introduce other.
People to helping people.
We, we bring the program to the stage, introduce that community.
There's more people now that see how well this works, this
communication between horse and humans.
So that's where we're at.
We're out there just, just pushing everything we do.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm hoping that you guys will go international and I,
I was talking to your wife about this.
So, you know, we spoke a couple of years ago about getting equestrian chaos
to do a show of the horse boy story.
Which I still would like instantly.
Last year there's a special needs theater in London called Chicken Shed.
'cause it actually started in a chicken shed Nice.
And has now become this huge, huge thing.
And they now also are affiliated with a university there where they
have the first degree program for.
Performing arts for the special needs.
And I feel that's a way, that's a direction you guys would, could also
logically go because you, you could really show, train people, I think, how
to work in the circus arts, not just with horses, you know, in, in, in so many ways.
Also with special needs.
And I want them to do the show of the horse boy because as well,
because their cast is about half autistic and wow, I really wanna
see what they do with that story.
But what they lack is.
Understanding of the horse and understanding of how to you would
bring that experience that would look a little bit like equestrian
chaos into like a London theater.
And I was chatting with, with Ali about this, and she said, oh,
well, you know, she immediately goes, oh, well here's the solution.
Yeah.
And she goes, well, you know, you, you put them on vaulting barrels,
which you then have, you know, to look like horses, and you can move those.
And then those are, you know, your Mongolian riders or your
spirits or your, you know, and, you know, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You guys need to be consultants on this.
Okay.
That's clear.
That's the,
Jason Barrett: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: so I'm hoping lightning, lightning thoughts
on that, you guys to London?
Jason Barrett: Yeah, that sounds great.
Yeah, we'd, we'd love to.
We we've had a couple stabs.
We had somebody from Ride on Festival interest one time we had
something out of Brazil interest.
So there's, there's, there's something gonna hit out there, but we'd love to
do anything with you Ru It'd be great.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so, you know, viewers.
Listeners, equestrian chaos.com.
They're a nonprofit.
There is a donate button, I believe.
Donate to them because this is, this is work.
You know, for example, if you've got a birthday coming up or something, get
your friends to donate to them as a birthday gift to you, because I frankly
have not seen in all the 20 years that I've been doing this work, I haven't
seen anything as badass as equestrian chaos, including my own work, by the
way, I thought that was pretty badass
Jason Barrett: until Yes, sir.
Indeed you are.
But like-minded birds man.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
This idea of of, of expanding what is possible so far outside, people talk about
outside the box and that kind of cliche.
It is like you created your own boxes, threw them away, created new
ones, threw those ones away, and they created a parallel universe, in fact.
Jason Barrett: Yeah, yeah.
You know,
Rupert Isaacson: stood on the opposite
Jason Barrett: of a box, A quantum box stood outside running around it.
It's, have you guys thought
Rupert Isaacson: about doing life coaching as well?
Because I, I, I feel that the way you've also done it sort of on a wish and
a prayer financially, where you, you never had the silver spoon, you never
had the big organization backing you.
You never had any of that.
And yet you did this show that was just so incredibly polished
on little resources and so on.
I, I, I feel that people could consult with you guys about
how to get their lives unstuck.
Jason Barrett: It's, I love people.
I, I love them.
We're so deep and so different and and yet so the same.
And it seems to be, it just kind of follows in the course of what we're doing.
We've had a lot of influence on, on people's lives from, from the experiences
they've had with our family Yeah.
That are tangible and leave a mark.
So, so yeah, I, I don't know where that goes, but we're always happy to help.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Now as we sort of draw to, to a close here, you started your whole life
with this within a spiritual context.
Although you, yourself.
W by, if I get this right, we're not so personally religious.
I mean, to some degree, but it was more that, that was the structure that,
of that church that was around you at the time that created that camp.
But of course, later the Jehovah's Witnesses got their teeth into
your jugular, but then you managed to extract yourself and but came
away with some great life skills.
Where are you at now spiritually?
What's your spirituality and, and what tips have you got for
people who are feeling stuck, who are feeling that they can't?
Jason Barrett: You can, you absolutely can.
However we can beat that thought into you.
You can, you're not stuck.
There is opportunity and if you look around in the world, you
will see people with far less opportunity than you have making it.
You're, they're out there.
You can absolutely do it.
You have to be patient, kind to yourself.
You gotta forgive yourself and your ignorances, you, you, you
have to, you have to have a, a purpose, find a purpose without it.
You'll be forever lost.
You've gotta find some kind of purpose.
And that can be any number of things, but you'll know it.
Find a purpose and ask people who have found a purpose.
Talk to folks like yourself and me who have found a talk to folks
Rupert Isaacson: who found a purpose.
Yeah.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
Talk to folks who found a purpose, because you may not know how to get there.
You may not even know what strikes you until you've had a
conversation with somebody who knows the right questions to ask.
You know, you can't see yourself as well as you think you do.
So it's always good to talk to somebody, you know?
Rupert Isaacson: I think, you know, and it's interesting 'cause you are the mc
and your job is to communicate the show.
And I've watched you do it.
I've also watched you structure it.
I've watched you create the music for, I've watched you
create the backdrops for it.
I've watched you create the aesthetic.
I've watched you run the thing, develop the thing.
You are a very good organizer.
But yeah.
Back to the spirituality, what's your relationship with
the big GOD at this point?
Jason Barrett: I'm, I'm grateful for this incredible life I have.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, I think if you live in gratitude, you're, you're already
on your way to spirituality.
I think that gratitude gives you the opportunity to see.
The beauty in each person, regardless of their shortcomings.
I take the principles that I learned from the life of Jesus, the idea of
total peace and, and zen whatever.
All those religions have thoughts that have spawned from men or from
some higher power with ideas that are, that are great and some that aren't.
You have to, you have to source it out.
You have to try it.
But there's nothing will ever go wrong with finding a purpose, lending a
helping hand sharing your heart with someone or making the opportunity
for someone to feel comfortable enough to share their heart with you.
If you do those things, it's going to lead to something, something better.
Even if it's uncomfortable, even if it stings, it hurts so spiritually.
I'm just looking forward to the future.
I don't know what the big guy has in store, but I'm grateful
for what I have so far.
If he is had a part in that, I'm, I'm really thankful.
I'm looking forward to being exciting ride.
Rupert Isaacson: It seems that what you're saying is, a formula of cultivate
gratitude and seek active mentorship, talk to people who have a life purpose.
It seems that you've almost coming up with that as an equation.
Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.
That's, that's, that's the, that's the, if there's a third part,
it's don't quit ruminating the, the negative things in your life
or the bad problems in your head.
That would be the third part.
You've gotta shut that shit down somehow.
And how did you shut that shit down?
Trying over and over again, you know?
Yeah.
You know, you, you, you made the wrong decision.
Something, something you did bitch you in your ass and your wife told
you you shouldn't have done that.
You know, you're going to have to let it go at some point.
You can't be upset about it forever.
You, you gotta roll past it.
You, you know, same thing if anything can happen in your life, but there
is tomorrow, there is today, there are the people standing around you
that are attached to you and by you and you've got to let, I hear so
many times people just say the same thing over and over and it's the bad
thing that they have in their life.
Mm-hmm.
You've gotta cut that cycle.
So yeah, those three things.
Find a purpose, talk to someone with a purpose.
Don't regurgitate your troubles over and over again.
Tell your confidant and then let it be.
And then
Rupert Isaacson: I feel that, yeah, that gratitude certainly helps me with that.
Mm-hmm.
You know, you, you're probably familiar with this phrase from the
Bible 'cause you spent so much time.
In the Bible.
But from New Testament one, you know, the idea of turning the
other cheek if someone slaps you.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's always been interpreted, you know, I, I always
had a problem with that one.
It's like, no man.
Mm-hmm.
Punch 'em in the face.
Yeah.
No way.
Yeah.
And it's bat kick him in the nut.
And then I was listening to the work of, I dunno if you've ever
come across Neville Godard.
He was a really interesting sort of early law of attraction dude who
was active in the sort of, in the forties and fifties and sixties.
If you go on YouTube, you can find recordings by him.
And what's really interesting about him is he interprets the
whole thing through a New Testament lens, but not in any dogmatic way.
In fact, what he's saying is the entire Bible is just an allegory for.
Effectively the law of attraction.
And he, he explains turning the other cheek as when you are looking in a
direction that slaps you in the face, turn your face and look in a direction
of where you actually want to go.
And because where your attention is is where you're gonna go.
You're gonna move towards the thing you're looking at.
You know, that's a good way
Jason Barrett: of looking at it.
Rupert Isaacson: Energy goes where attention flows, where
attention goes or whatever.
So you literally must, it's telling you, no, not here, like touching the hot stove.
Jason Barrett: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Turn your gaze.
Really?
It would be better if they said gaze.
Jason Barrett: Yeah.
Yeah.
I could take that.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Jason Barrett: Yeah, that works.
That works well.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Turn the other cheek.
Look the other way.
Go where you wanted.
And that's a huge thing that we've learned, you know, the way you want.
If you're forcing it, if you're forcing it to happen, you have to recognize
whether you are or you're not.
You have to have the insight to be able to tell.
But man, if you're forcing something, you're probably not in the right place.
Because when it fits you, you know when it comes Right.
And somebody's after you and they want you.
Yes.
That, that this, that's where you go.
Make sure you move when that happens, you know?
But,
Rupert Isaacson: well, it's been a pleasure.
I'm gonna nag my listeners to donate.
Jason Barrett: I appreciate that.
We could certainly make good use of it.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
And more than that, I really, really strongly urge anyone who's
listening or watching this go and check out an equestrian chaos show.
Absolutely.
You might think, oh yeah, I've seen circus acts.
You haven't seen one like this.
We'll be in
Jason Barrett: Glad Water Texas here.
The next three weekends starting November 5th or December 5th, we'll
have three weekends of shows out there at the, is that Tyler Viking
Festival?
Tyler?
It's near Tyler.
Near Tyler.
Okay.
It's in a town called Glad Water.
It's, it's the Yue Viking Festival.
We've got three weekends of shows out there.
We're gonna kill it out there.
They've been incredible to us.
That's one of the ones where you like, wow.
They built their stage for us.
They call it the equestrian Arena.
I mean, the Chaos Arena.
They put some beautiful stalls up for our horses.
I mean, they set up our, our area for our camp and our rigs, and it
just, and that's running through
Rupert Isaacson: December, 2025
Jason Barrett: through December?
Yep.
December, 2025.
That'll be our last performances this year.
And then we'll kick off.
We'll have some announcements about next year's performances coming up real soon,
but we'll be all over the country again.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
I'll get on my Texas people.
Yeah.
To go up.
Sounds good.
All right.
Jason Barrett: Yeah, man.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, listen, my friend, it's been a real pleasure.
I can't wait to reconnect again.
In person soon.
Jason Barrett: Absolutely.
I was thinking the same thing.
It'll be good to hang.
Rupert Isaacson: Like I say, you, you and Sise are massive heroes of mine.
I'm always, I'm in awe.
Goes both ways brother.
Project going,
Jason Barrett: goes both ways.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
All right.
Well, until the next time.
Equestrian chaos.com.
That's right.
You can find them there.
If you're listening now in December 2nd, 2025, you're in the South.
Head on over to Glade Water.
Is It?
Jason Barrett: Glad Water, Texas Biking Festival,
Rupert Isaacson: And near Tyler.
Get your mind blown.
Jason Barrett: Yeah, come on.
We'll do it.
Appreciate you Rupert, man.
It was awesome.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Till the next time.
Jason Barrett: Alright, later.
Bye.
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
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