WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:07.218 --> 00:00:08.328 Colin: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:08.328 --> 00:00:09.198 My name is Colin. 00:00:09.678 --> 00:00:12.588 CJ: Hey, and I'm CJ and we're here with our first guest and 00:00:12.588 --> 00:00:14.368 my good friend Mike Bifulco. 00:00:14.778 --> 00:00:19.728 We're talking about building a personal brand as a developer, and before 00:00:19.728 --> 00:00:22.428 we get into peppering Mike with all kinds of questions about how to do 00:00:22.433 --> 00:00:25.805 that, I'm just curious Mike, if you could give us a little rundown about 00:00:25.805 --> 00:00:29.825 things you're working on right now that you're building and or learning. 00:00:30.755 --> 00:00:31.175 Mike B: Sure. 00:00:31.175 --> 00:00:31.535 Yeah. 00:00:31.591 --> 00:00:35.041 So Colin, CJ, thanks so much for having me to start with. 00:00:35.082 --> 00:00:37.753 Yeah, so up until, around abouts a month ago, CJ and I were 00:00:38.173 --> 00:00:40.767 teammates working together at Stripe, on, on developer advocacy. 00:00:40.802 --> 00:00:44.505 I was a victim of the, the unsweet culling of Stripe's recent 00:00:44.505 --> 00:00:45.645 layoffs for better or worse. 00:00:45.645 --> 00:00:47.275 And so I've kind of moved on to other things. 00:00:47.275 --> 00:00:51.822 As background, I am, sort of a reformed, software developer turned, designer 00:00:51.822 --> 00:00:55.932 turned, startup founder and then developer advocate and a bunch of other things. 00:00:55.932 --> 00:00:59.263 So, I've kind of been thrown back into the fray and, although I, I 00:00:59.268 --> 00:01:01.835 haven't, really gone public with the details of what I'm doing next, 00:01:01.835 --> 00:01:03.162 I am, founding another company. 00:01:03.162 --> 00:01:04.572 So I've started another company with. 00:01:04.639 --> 00:01:07.736 some, some friends and some, folks who I've known for a while from the industry. 00:01:07.803 --> 00:01:11.437 And we'll be making noise about that sort of, sometime early on next year. 00:01:11.504 --> 00:01:14.507 and for the time being, we're in, the, sometimes too promiscuous 00:01:14.507 --> 00:01:17.507 stealth mode, which is kind of a funny thing because it's not a secret. 00:01:17.507 --> 00:01:18.407 I just don't have anything 00:01:18.437 --> 00:01:19.427 useful to say yet. 00:01:19.957 --> 00:01:20.437 CJ: Got it. 00:01:20.527 --> 00:01:22.256 Yeah, I think that's totally cool. 00:01:22.256 --> 00:01:25.526 Well, and when it launches we'll go and tell everyone about it. 00:01:25.526 --> 00:01:29.486 And one of the cool, I don't know if we haven't used this, but I think transistor. 00:01:29.891 --> 00:01:33.756 The podcast The podcast host that we use lets you come back 00:01:33.756 --> 00:01:35.616 and like insert dynamic stuff. 00:01:35.616 --> 00:01:40.116 So maybe if we remember to do so, we could come back and insert some like, 00:01:40.116 --> 00:01:41.466 Hey, go check out Mike's new thing. 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:42.269 Mike B: Perfect. 00:01:42.269 --> 00:01:44.249 Maybe I should have been more specific about which next year. 00:01:44.249 --> 00:01:48.239 I mean, then early 2023 is when I'm hoping to start talking about this stuff. 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:51.239 And in all honesty, in the meantime, I've been publishing quite a bit of, 00:01:51.297 --> 00:01:54.557 writing and demos and things like that under my own site, which is 00:01:54.617 --> 00:01:56.467 my, my own name, mikebifulco.com. 00:01:56.747 --> 00:01:59.327 And that's kind of where I publish anything that I think might be interesting 00:01:59.327 --> 00:02:01.247 for someone of any description to read. 00:02:01.282 --> 00:02:03.479 And that usually means it's something that either I've had to look up a 00:02:03.479 --> 00:02:06.029 bunch of times or it's just been weighing on my mind and I need to 00:02:06.119 --> 00:02:07.769 get it on paper and, and put it out 00:02:07.769 --> 00:02:08.369 into the world in. 00:02:09.284 --> 00:02:09.824 CJ: Awesome. 00:02:09.884 --> 00:02:10.814 Yeah, I think there's ton. 00:02:10.994 --> 00:02:14.744 I wanted to just kind of enumerate all the things that you're doing, cuz 00:02:14.744 --> 00:02:18.434 that I think sets the stage pretty well for building a personal brand. 00:02:18.434 --> 00:02:23.144 So you've got your personal site that people can find, and on there you're 00:02:23.144 --> 00:02:27.614 also doing tiny improvements, which is a newsletter and a podcast for. 00:02:28.834 --> 00:02:31.364 learning about and designing and building great products. 00:02:31.814 --> 00:02:35.084 And it's also talking about your philosophy for living a life you 00:02:35.084 --> 00:02:36.644 love in an ever-changing world. 00:02:36.674 --> 00:02:41.009 And what's cool about this is there's so many like psychology bits and 00:02:41.009 --> 00:02:44.369 pieces in the writing that you do, and so I've really enjoyed all that. 00:02:44.909 --> 00:02:46.769 You've also got your personal blog. 00:02:47.329 --> 00:02:48.754 , which you write a ton on. 00:02:49.144 --> 00:02:52.564 You've got APIs you won't Hate, which is a podcast, a blog, a 00:02:52.564 --> 00:02:56.794 community . You've got Software Engineering Daily, which is a podcast. 00:02:56.834 --> 00:02:59.924 You've got your personal YouTube channel, your personal TikTok, 00:02:59.924 --> 00:03:03.254 Mastodon, like, there's just so many things that you're publishing on. 00:03:03.854 --> 00:03:08.444 And so yeah, like setting the stage, Mike is everywhere online 00:03:08.444 --> 00:03:11.954 and in all the places, in all the podcasts and all the, the written. 00:03:12.459 --> 00:03:14.139 Video and all, all the things. 00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:15.039 And I was checking out. 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:19.629 I know like you've been posting a ton on TikTok lately in 00:03:19.629 --> 00:03:20.782 like this vertical format. 00:03:20.782 --> 00:03:23.186 But I also, when I was checking out your YouTube today, I was 00:03:23.191 --> 00:03:24.776 like, oh, these are also shorts. 00:03:24.836 --> 00:03:26.156 And they're so good. 00:03:26.156 --> 00:03:27.906 They're just like these concise little nuggets. 00:03:27.973 --> 00:03:32.575 So hopefully that sort of gives everyone the frame around the kinds of stuff that 00:03:32.575 --> 00:03:37.045 you're publishing online and through that lens, I'm curious if we could just kind 00:03:37.045 --> 00:03:42.085 of jump into how you think that others can successfully build a personal brand 00:03:42.085 --> 00:03:44.213 like that that is just so strong online. 00:03:44.274 --> 00:03:50.106 So yeah, I don't know if you want to kind of add any or like fill in any gaps. 00:03:50.106 --> 00:03:51.676 Did I miss anything or like 00:03:51.722 --> 00:03:54.954 Mike B: I think it's fair to say that most of what I do can be categorized 00:03:54.959 --> 00:03:56.404 as audio, video, or writing. 00:03:56.404 --> 00:03:58.917 And I kind of spray it out onto the internet in whatever place 00:03:58.917 --> 00:04:00.187 I think someone might find it. 00:04:00.187 --> 00:04:03.830 With the overarching thing being that I try and own as much of the stuff that I've 00:04:03.830 --> 00:04:07.070 written under my own domain name, because I think that my domain, hopefully in 00:04:07.070 --> 00:04:08.630 the long term will be the most valuable. 00:04:09.155 --> 00:04:11.517 for me because I have the most control over it, as, as evidenced 00:04:11.517 --> 00:04:14.817 sort of by recent things going on with Twitter, which I expect we'll probably 00:04:14.817 --> 00:04:16.227 get into at some point here too. 00:04:17.857 --> 00:04:20.472 . I also kind of want to couch this entire discussion with the fact that 00:04:20.472 --> 00:04:25.332 like, I'm very lucky to be able to spray my, my feelings in writing and, 00:04:25.332 --> 00:04:26.802 and creations all over the internet. 00:04:26.802 --> 00:04:30.372 And a lot of the time that I have to do these things is couched in like a 00:04:30.372 --> 00:04:31.992 massive amount of my own privilege. 00:04:32.078 --> 00:04:34.478 And, and so, you know, throughout the discussion of this, like I 00:04:34.478 --> 00:04:37.838 don't aim to say that anyone should be doing the same things as I do 00:04:37.838 --> 00:04:39.848 because it, everyone can and should. 00:04:39.848 --> 00:04:42.783 It's sort of like, I have the ability and time to do these things, 00:04:42.783 --> 00:04:46.054 and I feel like, I'm driven by a need to give back what I can. 00:04:46.054 --> 00:04:49.694 So sharing what I know, sharing my, expertise and advice and thoughts 00:04:49.694 --> 00:04:52.844 and feelings, whatever with people is really meant to take all the luck that 00:04:52.844 --> 00:04:55.770 I've had in my life that I've kind of stumbled into is, the person that I 00:04:55.770 --> 00:04:56.745 am and kind of give it back to people. 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:00.799 So, I do a lot of things in a lot of places because some, modes 00:05:00.799 --> 00:05:04.053 of communication are, are more suited for some types of, the 00:05:04.053 --> 00:05:05.163 things that I make than others. 00:05:05.229 --> 00:05:08.427 probably a good example is the, the writing and podcast that I do, called 00:05:08.427 --> 00:05:11.596 Tiny Improvements is my newsletter, which, is, is something that I write 00:05:11.596 --> 00:05:14.698 for people to, share information and thoughts on building products. 00:05:14.758 --> 00:05:16.948 Something I've been doing for a while, it's something I really care about. 00:05:17.398 --> 00:05:20.602 But, it's also a real privilege to have access to someone's inbox. 00:05:20.602 --> 00:05:22.732 So like, I try not to send garbage to people. 00:05:22.732 --> 00:05:27.303 I send out short, concise recommendations and, sort of philosophical breakdowns 00:05:27.308 --> 00:05:30.153 of like, what it's like to build a product that people trust for. 00:05:30.176 --> 00:05:32.726 And when I, when I write a newsletter that I think is good enough or 00:05:32.726 --> 00:05:36.386 meaningful enough for someone to want to have heard it through podcast, 00:05:36.386 --> 00:05:39.476 I'll sit down and literally just read the newsletter into my microphone 00:05:39.476 --> 00:05:41.472 and, and, spit that out as a podcast. 00:05:42.732 --> 00:05:44.577 and maybe people like that, maybe they don't. 00:05:44.577 --> 00:05:47.427 But for me it's at least one way that like, if one more person hears 00:05:47.427 --> 00:05:48.645 that, I think it's really useful. 00:05:48.645 --> 00:05:52.056 I was at a, a conference recently where Scott Hanselman gave a keynote. 00:05:52.086 --> 00:05:54.498 He's a, super, super talented developer. 00:05:54.498 --> 00:05:56.238 He's been working for Microsoft for Eons. 00:05:56.243 --> 00:05:58.938 He's like the godfather of technical blogging in a lot of ways. 00:05:58.938 --> 00:06:01.687 And, is a, is a super congenial and sort of wise guy and. 00:06:01.754 --> 00:06:04.633 During his keynote, he gave the advice that, sharing your wisdom 00:06:04.633 --> 00:06:06.973 is one of the best things you can do to leave a legacy behind. 00:06:07.333 --> 00:06:10.153 And like Colin, for example, if you and I were talking and you asked 00:06:10.153 --> 00:06:11.233 me, Hey, how do you do this thing? 00:06:11.233 --> 00:06:14.563 And I told it to you, suddenly the thing I know, both you and I know, 00:06:14.581 --> 00:06:17.584 and that's great, but it sort of ends there if I don't write it down. 00:06:17.584 --> 00:06:19.984 And so if I write it down and then share that with you, then 00:06:19.984 --> 00:06:21.094 I know it and you know it. 00:06:21.094 --> 00:06:23.914 And anyone who stumbles on this thing that I wrote down and put on a public 00:06:24.124 --> 00:06:25.624 URL somewhere benefits from it too. 00:06:25.924 --> 00:06:30.139 So you go from like, One person having information to two, to any, you know, 00:06:30.269 --> 00:06:32.299 multiple of the, the, of that from there. 00:06:32.364 --> 00:06:34.704 And I think there's something really powerful in that and I try to remind 00:06:34.704 --> 00:06:38.094 myself just to share whenever I can and whenever I have time, and 00:06:38.334 --> 00:06:39.534 honestly, the mental energy to 00:06:39.534 --> 00:06:40.314 do so as well. 00:06:40.974 --> 00:06:41.544 Colin: Absolutely. 00:06:41.544 --> 00:06:41.724 Yeah. 00:06:41.724 --> 00:06:44.424 And I, I like to encourage even people who are learning, like, I don't 00:06:44.429 --> 00:06:47.584 think you have to wait till you, you know, a thing to share it with CJ. 00:06:47.604 --> 00:06:47.814 Right. 00:06:47.814 --> 00:06:48.084 It's 00:06:48.444 --> 00:06:49.104 Mike B: Yeah. 00:06:49.124 --> 00:06:51.744 Colin: teaching it to CJ might help you better understand 00:06:51.744 --> 00:06:53.244 it as you're learning it. 00:06:53.724 --> 00:06:56.844 And then someone who is gonna be in your shoes a year later is gonna now 00:06:56.844 --> 00:06:58.674 learn it from, from your perspective. 00:06:58.744 --> 00:07:01.384 I always think about this back when I was like learning math in 00:07:01.389 --> 00:07:04.174 school, like I did not do so well. 00:07:04.294 --> 00:07:04.654 Right. 00:07:04.654 --> 00:07:06.844 And then I got a different teacher that when I had to take 00:07:06.844 --> 00:07:08.134 the class over again and I was. 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:11.119 Okay, this is clicking because like the way they were teaching 00:07:11.119 --> 00:07:12.229 it was completely different. 00:07:12.359 --> 00:07:15.689 And so I could have given up right there and been like, yeah, I'm just not gonna 00:07:15.689 --> 00:07:17.699 get this algorithms thing or whatever. 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:19.199 But it's just perspective. 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:20.484 And I think that that really helps. 00:07:20.484 --> 00:07:22.734 And then, yeah, like you said, you're putting it out in the world. 00:07:22.734 --> 00:07:25.764 And some of the people I've followed with, I guess you. 00:07:25.939 --> 00:07:28.729 Could say they have quote unquote developer brands today. 00:07:28.729 --> 00:07:31.999 Like they were just kind of learning in public for a really long time 00:07:32.004 --> 00:07:33.709 and, and no one was paying attention. 00:07:33.709 --> 00:07:37.369 So they got really good at sharing because no one was paying attention. 00:07:37.374 --> 00:07:41.984 And you kind of have to do that for a long time before, it almost looks effortless. 00:07:41.984 --> 00:07:45.453 But I'm sure, we all kind of get a little bit of jitters right before the 00:07:45.458 --> 00:07:47.643 microphone light goes on and all that too. 00:07:47.723 --> 00:07:48.113 Mike B: Yeah. 00:07:48.173 --> 00:07:49.193 Yeah, absolutely. 00:07:49.305 --> 00:07:51.975 One of the things that I've learned throughout the years is that the best 00:07:51.975 --> 00:07:55.005 way to get smarter at something is to publish something anywhere on the internet 00:07:55.010 --> 00:07:56.205 and say it's the right way to do it. 00:07:56.262 --> 00:07:59.742 Because smarter people will always show up and tell you where you're wrong 00:07:59.892 --> 00:08:02.847 of all of the technical failings of your assumptions and this and that. 00:08:03.057 --> 00:08:04.639 And that's actually something that I really like. 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:07.636 You know, if I put something out on the internet, I'll go and publish it to 00:08:07.636 --> 00:08:11.446 three or four subreddits and say like, Hey, this is, you know, this is what, 00:08:11.446 --> 00:08:12.766 how I think you should do this thing. 00:08:12.766 --> 00:08:16.666 And it's very cool that people will come along and say, well actually it's broken 00:08:16.666 --> 00:08:19.406 here, or You shouldn't do this, or it's insecure, or whatever the case may be. 00:08:19.406 --> 00:08:22.720 Cuz that makes me better at, at doing whatever it is I'm doing. 00:08:22.806 --> 00:08:25.776 Other side of that though is that you have to be prepared to be wrong and be wrong 00:08:25.776 --> 00:08:27.276 publicly and admit when you're wrong. 00:08:27.366 --> 00:08:30.727 And those are really hard things to do if you, are not prepared 00:08:30.727 --> 00:08:32.287 for, for what that feels like. 00:08:33.742 --> 00:08:33.743 CJ: Yeah. 00:08:33.942 --> 00:08:39.382 I think one of the sort of common themes when I. 00:08:39.937 --> 00:08:40.957 Searched and researched. 00:08:40.957 --> 00:08:43.027 Building a personal brand is that you wanna be authentic. 00:08:43.507 --> 00:08:47.527 And that trustworthiness and that authenticity really comes through 00:08:47.527 --> 00:08:49.627 when you say, I got that wrong. 00:08:49.837 --> 00:08:55.304 And so I actually, I, I don't wanna like call you out, Mike, but we, there was 00:08:55.304 --> 00:08:58.214 something recently, right, where you published something and then someone in 00:08:58.214 --> 00:09:00.824 the comments on dev two said, oh, there's. 00:09:01.344 --> 00:09:02.244 A different way to do that. 00:09:02.244 --> 00:09:04.164 And you're like, oh yeah, complete correction. 00:09:04.374 --> 00:09:07.014 Like at the very top, like, oh, this, there's like this better way to do it. 00:09:07.014 --> 00:09:09.384 And I was like, oh, that is so awesome and authentic. 00:09:09.414 --> 00:09:12.978 And also it comes off as like, yeah, I'm not yeah, it was 00:09:12.978 --> 00:09:14.898 semantic H T M L headings, right? 00:09:14.898 --> 00:09:17.327 Like or using the subtitle tag or something, right? 00:09:17.327 --> 00:09:19.097 Like there was, there was, yeah. 00:09:19.187 --> 00:09:19.547 Okay. 00:09:19.687 --> 00:09:20.497 Mike B: yeah, exactly. 00:09:20.497 --> 00:09:23.437 I, I posted a little tutorial about how to make it so that when you have 00:09:23.437 --> 00:09:26.977 a blog post and you publish it, it the headings for your blog post link, 00:09:27.007 --> 00:09:28.387 like provide links to themselves. 00:09:28.387 --> 00:09:32.197 So when you click on, like the subtitle in a post, you get a URL that zips 00:09:32.197 --> 00:09:33.337 you right to that part of the page. 00:09:33.340 --> 00:09:35.268 And I posted like, here's how I found out how to do this. 00:09:35.268 --> 00:09:38.088 I think the title of the article was even the correct way to do this. 00:09:38.109 --> 00:09:41.409 And, and someone came along and said, well, actually, like, that's not useful 00:09:41.409 --> 00:09:42.909 for people who use screen readers. 00:09:43.014 --> 00:09:47.016 You know what, that's a very important thing and a super, like, fapa thing to do 00:09:47.016 --> 00:09:50.333 is to, to ignore accessible, accessible technologies and the things people use to 00:09:50.333 --> 00:09:53.688 read the web who aren't, you know, fully cited or can't hear, things like that. 00:09:53.688 --> 00:09:57.706 So I literally went in and I updated this post with a, a new subsection 00:09:57.706 --> 00:10:00.436 that says, Hey, look, I was wrong and here's how, what I learned here. 00:10:00.448 --> 00:10:03.868 And I think doing that and leaving that on the record is an important thing because. 00:10:04.983 --> 00:10:07.213 honestly, like there's a lot of things you can glean from a post like that, 00:10:07.213 --> 00:10:10.063 but one thing is for people who are doing things online and writing things 00:10:10.063 --> 00:10:13.813 online, it's better to say when you were wrong than to sort of dig your heels 00:10:13.813 --> 00:10:17.263 in and, and be wrong for eternity or to hide the fact that you were wrong. 00:10:17.297 --> 00:10:18.287 Nobody's perfect. 00:10:18.287 --> 00:10:19.607 We all make lots of mistakes. 00:10:19.607 --> 00:10:23.027 I make tons of mistakes and, you know, people call me out on it and I'm, 00:10:23.027 --> 00:10:24.557 I'm happy to learn from other people. 00:10:24.557 --> 00:10:27.718 I think that's the mark of, someone who's been through the ringer a few times. 00:10:27.718 --> 00:10:27.838 You. 00:10:28.603 --> 00:10:29.083 CJ: Totally. 00:10:29.743 --> 00:10:29.893 Yeah. 00:10:29.898 --> 00:10:34.153 I think back in Colin, I think we did in episode eight, we talked about 00:10:34.153 --> 00:10:36.193 our process for content creation. 00:10:36.193 --> 00:10:40.393 And I think personal brand, especially like developer, personal brand, is tied 00:10:40.393 --> 00:10:46.073 pretty closely to regularly sharing your knowledge and expertise with others. 00:10:46.073 --> 00:10:49.853 And we talked about how the Tailwind team did this really well with showing 00:10:49.853 --> 00:10:53.093 like a bunch of hot tips about here's how you do things with CSS to build up 00:10:53.483 --> 00:10:57.773 that sort of like authority, but also the authenticity that they have with 00:10:57.778 --> 00:11:02.153 their brand and the trustworthiness that they were able to build up this 00:11:02.153 --> 00:11:05.150 huge audience that would then go and buy the stuff that they were selling. 00:11:05.188 --> 00:11:08.591 And so I'm curious, like if you have any thoughts about. 00:11:08.625 --> 00:11:13.695 Maybe having a way to differentiate yourself in a really crowded market 00:11:13.695 --> 00:11:17.335 with other content creators who are making the same stuff, or, if you're, 00:11:17.709 --> 00:11:22.749 next js dev, how do you think about maybe making stuff that's unique 00:11:22.749 --> 00:11:24.339 to you, or does that even matter? 00:11:26.094 --> 00:11:27.654 Mike B: Yeah, that's a really good question. 00:11:27.654 --> 00:11:31.354 So I, I'd start with the authenticity part of it, and I think that, 00:11:31.370 --> 00:11:34.610 one of the, the, the thing that I identify with fundamentally with 00:11:34.610 --> 00:11:37.310 creators online of any description, whether it's someone who's making. 00:11:37.610 --> 00:11:41.270 YouTube videos about video games or someone who does cooking stuff 00:11:41.270 --> 00:11:43.070 or you know, a software developer. 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.935 The thing that I h hook into the most is the person, the, entity. 00:11:46.935 --> 00:11:49.485 Creating the things and the personality behind it is what I 00:11:49.485 --> 00:11:51.795 find to be gratifying about someone. 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:54.663 When I find someone, you know, that I follow one way or the other, I think that 00:11:54.663 --> 00:11:56.283 tends to be the thing that I land with. 00:11:56.553 --> 00:11:59.291 So, in that sense, I think it's really important to be who you 00:11:59.291 --> 00:12:01.775 are and kind of like include in. 00:12:01.791 --> 00:12:05.721 online content, your own personality, wherever you can, because, that's 00:12:05.721 --> 00:12:06.681 the only person you can be. 00:12:06.681 --> 00:12:09.531 And if people like you, they're gonna kind of stick on to you and follow 00:12:09.531 --> 00:12:12.567 and on on in your, Yeah, they'll follow what you create, right? 00:12:12.567 --> 00:12:16.756 And so, everything I do, reeks of my own personality, my, my Twitter 00:12:16.756 --> 00:12:19.846 handle, and now my Mastodon handle is, is irreverent Mike, because 00:12:19.846 --> 00:12:21.226 I can't be serious for too long. 00:12:21.226 --> 00:12:23.566 Like, I have to be a sarcastic idiot at some point in the day. 00:12:23.566 --> 00:12:25.757 Or, you know, I'll, I'll start vibrating out of discomfort. 00:12:25.834 --> 00:12:30.686 . And on my own site, like I tend to try and include content that, I find interesting, 00:12:30.686 --> 00:12:34.736 but also like always has a little bit of a, a, a less serious bent to it. 00:12:34.736 --> 00:12:38.396 Like a lot of the cover images from my articles include stupid 00:12:38.396 --> 00:12:39.536 jokes and stuff like that. 00:12:39.536 --> 00:12:42.767 That just kind of keeps me entertained, because that's what I'm like in real life. 00:12:42.767 --> 00:12:45.317 You know, I get things done, but I also do it in a lighthearted way. 00:12:45.317 --> 00:12:48.852 And, I think that's really the, the best way for me to make things that I find, 00:12:48.955 --> 00:12:50.425 that, that other people find interesting. 00:12:51.670 --> 00:12:54.550 I have a couple of heuristics for like when I create something 00:12:54.610 --> 00:12:55.750 that I'm gonna put online. 00:12:55.780 --> 00:12:58.030 One, like I said before, is if it's something I've looked up more 00:12:58.030 --> 00:13:00.906 than once, and, and I've found it as something like every time 00:13:00.906 --> 00:13:01.956 I do this, I need to look it up. 00:13:01.956 --> 00:13:04.836 It's really helpful for me to write it down because one, I'll know that 00:13:04.836 --> 00:13:08.136 I can go to my site to find it in the future, but also I tend to just 00:13:08.136 --> 00:13:10.346 remember things once I've written them down for someone else to see. 00:13:10.358 --> 00:13:13.398 The, the other types of things that I create are ones where, it's an 00:13:13.748 --> 00:13:17.088 interesting idea or something that I haven't seen discussed much, and I think 00:13:17.088 --> 00:13:18.468 that I've got unique perspective on it. 00:13:19.483 --> 00:13:21.763 Doesn't mean I'm the only one who's written about these things. 00:13:21.763 --> 00:13:25.273 I don't mind overlapping with what other people have written, especially 00:13:25.273 --> 00:13:29.288 if there is, something I can add or something I can, even contrast 00:13:29.293 --> 00:13:30.618 with other people's experiences in. 00:13:30.618 --> 00:13:34.347 So, I, gosh, I can't even think of a concrete example, but often you'll see the 00:13:34.347 --> 00:13:36.447 same kind of tutorial from lots of people. 00:13:36.447 --> 00:13:39.977 And I think it's interesting to see, like, for example, maybe the, CJ a Villa 00:13:39.977 --> 00:13:43.912 Ruby tutorial on how to, Cover images for your site, with open graph, and the 00:13:44.122 --> 00:13:45.892 next JS version that I write is useful. 00:13:45.892 --> 00:13:48.800 But there's people who do Gatsby and Laravel and, Hugo 00:13:48.800 --> 00:13:49.670 and all these other things. 00:13:49.670 --> 00:13:54.230 And even if like the gist of the, the content is the same, the applied 00:13:54.230 --> 00:13:55.730 science is different for each one. 00:13:55.820 --> 00:13:59.006 And I think that's okay to be, as, as the outcome of what you do, in terms 00:13:59.011 --> 00:14:00.476 of like overlap with other people. 00:14:00.766 --> 00:14:04.586 Honestly, I don't care like the, the, size of our audiences on the internet is 00:14:04.586 --> 00:14:09.596 so incomprehensibly large that I can cut out a big enough slice of the pie to, 00:14:09.656 --> 00:14:11.515 you know, create my own little, empire. 00:14:11.520 --> 00:14:12.475 That will be fine. 00:14:12.595 --> 00:14:15.355 And, you know, it's, it's great if there are other people like me 00:14:15.355 --> 00:14:18.025 because that just means we have shared interests and like, it means I can 00:14:18.025 --> 00:14:21.055 get on a podcast with Colin and cj and we have lots of shared things to talk 00:14:21.055 --> 00:14:22.285 about and we have things in common. 00:14:22.356 --> 00:14:24.606 And, and there's no reason to let that hold you back. 00:14:24.728 --> 00:14:27.848 To, to be honest, when I started creating things online, the reason I did it was 00:14:27.848 --> 00:14:31.298 because I, I had a lot of knowledge that I wanted people to know I had. 00:14:31.332 --> 00:14:33.852 Not because I'm the best or the fastest or whatever. 00:14:33.852 --> 00:14:35.412 There are people who are that, that's not me. 00:14:35.472 --> 00:14:35.962 That's cool. 00:14:35.962 --> 00:14:38.904 But because I wanted to be able to create conversations with people where 00:14:38.909 --> 00:14:41.724 I could connect to you and say like, Hey, yeah, I write about this stuff too. 00:14:41.724 --> 00:14:42.654 Like I'm interested in it. 00:14:42.654 --> 00:14:44.284 I have this whole body of stuff that I've written. 00:14:44.284 --> 00:14:44.488 We. 00:14:44.883 --> 00:14:45.693 Similar people. 00:14:45.693 --> 00:14:48.524 Let's talk, you know, let's, let's create those conversations and, having 00:14:48.524 --> 00:14:51.865 your name, like Colin, I think you and I, actually all three of us, honestly, 00:14:51.870 --> 00:14:53.755 like I I, I met CJ within the last year. 00:14:53.755 --> 00:14:56.605 And this is the first time Colin and I have chatted in person, but both 00:14:56.605 --> 00:15:00.040 of your names were, floating around in the gray matter of my brain in 00:15:00.040 --> 00:15:03.550 some way or another because I've just seen you online one way or the other. 00:15:04.210 --> 00:15:07.482 And that creates a lot of momentum, and a lot of opportunity for people, 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:08.849 when you start to do things like that. 00:15:09.572 --> 00:15:12.262 Colin: Yeah, and I think with all the, like various Slack communities 00:15:12.267 --> 00:15:15.802 and Discords and all that stuff, it's like you almost have to. 00:15:16.162 --> 00:15:18.193 Like, think of your name tag at a party. 00:15:18.193 --> 00:15:20.923 Like, talk to me about X, Y, and Z, right? 00:15:20.923 --> 00:15:22.333 So like, what is that gonna be for you? 00:15:22.333 --> 00:15:27.378 And you've kind of planted those flags about like, everything from APIs that 00:15:27.378 --> 00:15:29.598 you, is it, you won't hate, don't hate 00:15:29.733 --> 00:15:30.033 Mike B: you won't 00:15:30.033 --> 00:15:30.273 hate. 00:15:30.273 --> 00:15:30.813 Yeah. 00:15:30.918 --> 00:15:31.428 Colin: won't hate, 00:15:31.458 --> 00:15:33.138 you know, I've got a lot of APIs I do hate. 00:15:33.138 --> 00:15:33.989 So it's uh, one of those. 00:15:33.989 --> 00:15:35.789 I was like, let's, let's talk about that, right? 00:15:35.794 --> 00:15:38.140 So it's like you know, being very opinionated, right? 00:15:38.140 --> 00:15:38.800 It's very easy. 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:42.040 Be very generic and say like, let's talk about APIs. 00:15:42.040 --> 00:15:44.890 But it's like, okay, but if you say APIs you won't hate. 00:15:44.890 --> 00:15:47.380 Like, people are like, oh, I know exactly what we wanna talk about right here. 00:15:47.800 --> 00:15:48.650 Let's dig in. 00:15:48.651 --> 00:15:51.915 Or even, you know, like you did write an article here that I'm 00:15:51.920 --> 00:15:54.225 gonna just throw out and we can talk about Twitter a little bit. 00:15:54.308 --> 00:15:58.868 Twitter and the perils of obedience and I don't know if you have any 00:15:58.868 --> 00:16:02.678 direct inspiration, but I, I, I get a sense of a little bit of. 00:16:03.653 --> 00:16:06.842 Like James, clear inspiration from your writing style. 00:16:06.842 --> 00:16:08.012 I don't know if you're a fan of him. 00:16:08.105 --> 00:16:10.545 Maybe a little Malcolm Gladwell, a little bit of Seth Goden. 00:16:10.596 --> 00:16:15.660 But I can, I like how you went into the Stanley Milgram experiment as 00:16:15.660 --> 00:16:20.040 like, instead of just giving your take on Twitter, you kind of based it in 00:16:20.490 --> 00:16:22.420 something that that we can relate to 00:16:23.260 --> 00:16:23.710 Mike B: Sure. 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:24.010 Yeah. 00:16:24.010 --> 00:16:24.310 God. 00:16:24.310 --> 00:16:26.110 Talk about standing on the shoulders of giants. 00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:28.900 I feel like being named in the same sentence as any of those people is like, 00:16:28.900 --> 00:16:31.390 makes me a, a bank error in my own favor. 00:16:31.390 --> 00:16:35.307 There, Yeah, so, so this is an article I wrote recently, Twitter and the perils of 00:16:35.307 --> 00:16:39.357 obedience that I published shortly after Elon Musk took over Twitter, and shortly 00:16:39.357 --> 00:16:43.047 after he started making rules that just made things worse and worse and worse. 00:16:43.047 --> 00:16:45.926 And like, there's, there's a lot of sort of meta experiences 00:16:45.926 --> 00:16:47.425 that went into, my decision. 00:16:47.430 --> 00:16:49.855 But the, the long short of it is that I have for the time 00:16:49.855 --> 00:16:51.175 being left Twitter completely. 00:16:51.216 --> 00:16:55.481 And I've moved on to using Mastodon as my, like micro bloggy 00:16:55.481 --> 00:16:56.912 Twitter parallel that I'm using. 00:16:56.928 --> 00:17:00.245 .And the, the reason for that is largely because I feel like, 00:17:00.245 --> 00:17:03.142 Twitter is becoming a place that is enabling, danger in a lot of ways. 00:17:03.142 --> 00:17:05.242 Like it's misinformation is really dangerous. 00:17:05.247 --> 00:17:08.962 If, if there's anything I've seen since 2016 and really since like, I don't 00:17:08.962 --> 00:17:12.907 know, let's call it March of 2020 for some reason, allowing people to believe 00:17:12.907 --> 00:17:14.557 things that they don't have evidence for. 00:17:15.662 --> 00:17:16.892 is very dangerous. 00:17:16.892 --> 00:17:20.762 Like it's hard to put your hands on that and, and really describe the impact 00:17:20.762 --> 00:17:21.932 that these sorts of things have had. 00:17:21.932 --> 00:17:25.068 But, I've found Twitter to be a place where like the people running it are 00:17:25.068 --> 00:17:26.748 scary to me and so I'm out of there. 00:17:26.749 --> 00:17:30.093 It's possible that Elon's views may change and its rules may change 00:17:30.093 --> 00:17:31.563 in some, some point in the future. 00:17:31.568 --> 00:17:34.593 Maybe Twitter will dissolve as a company and go bankrupt. 00:17:34.623 --> 00:17:37.383 Maybe it'll go under different leadership and I'll show up back again. 00:17:37.683 --> 00:17:39.573 But for the time being, it's not a place for me to be. 00:17:39.693 --> 00:17:41.493 And, and the long and short of the article is that. 00:17:42.863 --> 00:17:45.893 It made me think of this, this Milgrim experiment, which was kind of like a 00:17:45.893 --> 00:17:50.593 psychological test that happened in the, sixties, that is maybe questionably 00:17:50.598 --> 00:17:54.918 ethical, but really put to the test, people's ability to like defy leadership. 00:17:54.978 --> 00:17:59.252 So with the found essentially was that, by hooker, by crook, most 00:17:59.252 --> 00:18:02.102 people are more inclined to follow. 00:18:02.111 --> 00:18:05.785 The leader than they are to defy leadership, even when they have some 00:18:05.785 --> 00:18:09.175 strong feeling that what they're being told to do is incorrect or ethically 00:18:09.175 --> 00:18:10.525 wrong, or whatever the case may be. 00:18:11.017 --> 00:18:13.532 And the, the reason I know about this experiment is I, I studied 00:18:13.532 --> 00:18:14.582 human computer interaction. 00:18:14.582 --> 00:18:16.982 I studied human psychology and all these things in grad school. 00:18:16.982 --> 00:18:19.382 And so this was kind of sitting with me and it's one of these things that 00:18:19.382 --> 00:18:22.432 kind of just floats up to the, the top of my, mind every once in a while. 00:18:22.437 --> 00:18:25.481 And, I was feeling more and more that like the experience of being on Twitter 00:18:25.486 --> 00:18:28.751 and being told that, like, okay, well this is a place that you love, but now 00:18:28.751 --> 00:18:31.901 like, we're gonna open up the gates and let all the monsters in and you're still 00:18:31.901 --> 00:18:35.561 gonna love it here because you do, and this is okay now, really made me feel. 00:18:36.081 --> 00:18:39.559 It's probably time for a change and, and I need to, publicly announce my 00:18:39.564 --> 00:18:43.099 departure because maybe that'll get one other person to leave and maybe that 00:18:43.104 --> 00:18:46.339 creates some momentum or maybe it, it at least tells one other person that 00:18:46.339 --> 00:18:48.749 their decision to leave was vindicated. 00:18:48.772 --> 00:18:50.282 And so that's kind of why I put that out there. 00:18:50.325 --> 00:18:53.496 The structure of the article is really long, compared to what I, I tend 00:18:53.496 --> 00:18:57.186 to write for the most part because it's kind of involved explanation 00:18:57.186 --> 00:19:00.156 and it, it involves a bit of history and my own perspective on things. 00:19:01.271 --> 00:19:02.411 and it was really hard to get it written. 00:19:02.411 --> 00:19:05.441 Like I sat down and I probably spent 30 hours writing this thing over 00:19:05.441 --> 00:19:07.884 the course of a couple of weeks just trying to get it outta my brain. 00:19:07.884 --> 00:19:12.561 And I feel like this is not a tutorial, this isn't a web, you know, like react 00:19:12.651 --> 00:19:16.071 thing, a next JS thing that anyone will benefit from, but it's something 00:19:16.071 --> 00:19:18.738 that, ,I'm happy to have on the record as like, this is my philosophy and 00:19:18.738 --> 00:19:19.998 this is what I'm thinking right now. 00:19:20.238 --> 00:19:21.318 It's possible that I'm wrong. 00:19:21.318 --> 00:19:24.931 It's possible that, that the, the web I spun with this article is like a little 00:19:24.931 --> 00:19:28.820 hard to follow and not super logical for some people, but for me it was, a 00:19:28.825 --> 00:19:31.430 cleansing moment and something I could put out there and say, okay, cool. 00:19:31.430 --> 00:19:32.090 I did this. 00:19:32.120 --> 00:19:34.910 I posted one last tweet linking to this article, and then I just 00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:38.000 logged outta Twitter, shut off all my notifications and just moved. 00:19:38.026 --> 00:19:39.446 and it's been really interesting to do that. 00:19:39.446 --> 00:19:42.264 and honestly in a lot of ways, kind of showed me that like the 00:19:42.264 --> 00:19:45.414 internet is a big place and people will still find my nonsense one 00:19:45.414 --> 00:19:46.014 way or the other. 00:19:46.874 --> 00:19:49.244 Colin: Yeah, I mean, I brought that article up cuz I think a lot 00:19:49.244 --> 00:19:52.664 of people think that they have to be on Twitter, and I think that's 00:19:52.664 --> 00:19:53.924 part of that experiment, right? 00:19:53.924 --> 00:19:56.264 Is that they're like, well, I have to fall in line here 00:19:56.534 --> 00:19:57.704 and follow the Twitter things. 00:19:57.704 --> 00:20:01.934 But what's really complicated about Twitter is it's not new, right? 00:20:01.964 --> 00:20:05.384 Some of us have been on there for a very long time, and in some ways, like 00:20:05.384 --> 00:20:09.704 I really liked the original founders and their philosophies and it's why. 00:20:10.114 --> 00:20:14.644 Was using Twitter a little bit of like founder startup worship for sure. 00:20:14.644 --> 00:20:14.884 Right? 00:20:14.914 --> 00:20:17.464 Like we, you know, even things like GitHub now or. 00:20:18.119 --> 00:20:19.889 Owned by and run by Microsoft. 00:20:19.889 --> 00:20:23.429 It's not run by the original founders, but Twitter's had a lot 00:20:23.429 --> 00:20:26.699 of leadership changes and the, the vibe of it has changed with each of 00:20:26.699 --> 00:20:28.319 those kind of changing of the guard. 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:31.889 And I think like what you hit on there is the internet is big. 00:20:31.894 --> 00:20:34.559 People are gonna find you, you can leave some breadcrumbs for people 00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.819 to come find you on dev two on, you know, wherever that might be. 00:20:39.821 --> 00:20:42.531 CJ: I think that when people are thinking about building their 00:20:42.881 --> 00:20:46.041 personal brand, they might think that Twitter has to be a really core 00:20:46.041 --> 00:20:48.081 component of that, especially in tech. 00:20:48.501 --> 00:20:54.132 But I think that looking at your developer brand, they'll recognize that there's 00:20:54.132 --> 00:20:57.852 so many other channels and ways to reach people that are not on Twitter. 00:20:58.392 --> 00:21:01.332 And so I wanted to kind of like loop back to, to one of the things you 00:21:01.332 --> 00:21:04.032 said earlier about like heuristics for publishing stuff, because 00:21:04.032 --> 00:21:06.492 I, I noticed that on LinkedIn. 00:21:07.017 --> 00:21:10.677 , you had reposted the same, like you, you reposted your post on LinkedIn and 00:21:10.677 --> 00:21:15.117 I was like, oh, I wonder if you have sort, and like not only metrics or 00:21:15.117 --> 00:21:18.027 like ways that you determine whether or not you wanna publish something, 00:21:18.027 --> 00:21:22.407 but then also like, oh, I'm, I'm hoping that this post will get X views. 00:21:22.412 --> 00:21:26.367 Or kind of like, maybe that's just kind of like amplifying and hoping again 00:21:26.367 --> 00:21:28.207 that you kind of continue to influence. 00:21:28.207 --> 00:21:30.980 But also like giving people. 00:21:31.355 --> 00:21:35.825 The idea that they can publish both technical things that they care 00:21:35.830 --> 00:21:39.605 about, their like tech stack, but also sharing their own philosophy, 00:21:39.605 --> 00:21:41.135 their own views, their own vision. 00:21:41.435 --> 00:21:44.615 And that can be part of their personal brand intermingled with like their 00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:48.673 other thoughts that are, unrelated to whatever stack of the day. 00:21:49.523 --> 00:21:49.873 Mike B: Yeah. 00:21:50.713 --> 00:21:53.953 Nothing in this world makes me angry, quite like when I go online 00:21:53.953 --> 00:21:56.983 and I see someone saying like, Hey, you should stick to tech stuff. 00:21:56.983 --> 00:22:01.573 Don't talk about politics or don't talk about sports, or don't talk about your tv. 00:22:01.578 --> 00:22:05.323 Well, I'm here to, to see your tech stuff like nothing in this world will make 00:22:05.323 --> 00:22:10.813 me be spinning around doing judo in my office alone, out of anger than that. 00:22:10.813 --> 00:22:14.894 Because people are so complex and everyone has so much t hat feeds into 00:22:14.894 --> 00:22:17.624 their personality and their interests and what makes them want to build 00:22:17.624 --> 00:22:20.624 software or what makes them like music or whatever the case may be. 00:22:20.659 --> 00:22:23.470 And by, by filtering someone down to one dimension, it's like such 00:22:23.470 --> 00:22:25.144 a, a lame thing to do to someone. 00:22:25.164 --> 00:22:28.324 It, it makes your experience of the world so much less interesting than it could be. 00:22:28.345 --> 00:22:30.770 And I'm a pretty firm believer that you can publish whatever you want, 00:22:30.770 --> 00:22:34.610 wherever you want, and the people who are interested in this stuff, you're writing. 00:22:34.616 --> 00:22:37.531 On any topic, we'll find it because they're gonna search for the thing, right? 00:22:37.531 --> 00:22:39.751 Someone will find it, someone will recommend it, and the network 00:22:39.751 --> 00:22:41.054 effect will take over from there. 00:22:41.081 --> 00:22:44.291 So like for example, my, I, I publish about tech stuff. 00:22:44.291 --> 00:22:46.661 I write about React and JavaScript and building companies. 00:22:46.931 --> 00:22:49.691 I write about cycling, I write about coffee, I write about APIs. 00:22:49.696 --> 00:22:50.771 I write about climate change. 00:22:50.801 --> 00:22:52.061 I write about psychology. 00:22:52.091 --> 00:22:56.635 And from time to time, I, I publish a post that's, helping my wife with her work. 00:22:56.635 --> 00:22:57.925 She's a, a content creator. 00:22:57.925 --> 00:22:59.455 She has a YouTube channel that she's running. 00:22:59.755 --> 00:23:03.055 All of those things are so varied and so different, and like the only person who's 00:23:03.055 --> 00:23:04.975 interested in all of those things is me. 00:23:05.425 --> 00:23:09.325 But there's lots of people who are interested in some of those things and 00:23:09.325 --> 00:23:10.585 they'll find it one way or the other. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:11.169 And, and. 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.249 . If you are a person who's sitting here listening to this podcast, think 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.955 thinking like, Hey, I would really like to, create a, brand for myself 00:23:17.955 --> 00:23:21.135 online, but I haven't yet because I don't have enough to write about. 00:23:21.525 --> 00:23:22.545 Doesn't matter, Ruby. 00:23:22.638 --> 00:23:23.838 You have enough to write about. 00:23:23.928 --> 00:23:27.618 Maybe just not Ruby to start with, but you'll bump into things from time to time. 00:23:27.738 --> 00:23:31.158 And so I, I think maybe the challenge instead is like, During 00:23:31.158 --> 00:23:33.798 the week, think about the things that you've talked to people about. 00:23:33.798 --> 00:23:35.208 Like, Hey, did you hear about this? 00:23:35.238 --> 00:23:38.058 And try and find a running theme in those things for you that you think 00:23:38.058 --> 00:23:39.648 you could sit and write something down. 00:23:39.708 --> 00:23:42.468 Doesn't matter how long it is, doesn't matter how detailed it is, 00:23:42.468 --> 00:23:44.818 or if you're bringing something entirely new to the table. 00:23:44.831 --> 00:23:46.181 But share your opinion on things. 00:23:46.186 --> 00:23:49.850 Get into the process of writing or at least, sort of dicing up your own 00:23:49.855 --> 00:23:52.400 thoughts and creating discussions and share those with the world. 00:23:52.460 --> 00:23:55.520 And you'll find a thread that that gets you into creating 00:23:55.525 --> 00:23:56.768 things, one way or the other. 00:23:59.143 --> 00:23:59.473 Colin: Awesome. 00:23:59.473 --> 00:23:59.683 Yeah. 00:23:59.683 --> 00:24:02.353 Is there anybody that kind of comes to mind for you that 00:24:02.353 --> 00:24:04.463 you follow because of that? 00:24:04.468 --> 00:24:10.123 Like, you know, some brands, creators that also love espresso and APIs, things like 00:24:10.208 --> 00:24:11.438 Mike B: Yeah, for sure. 00:24:11.438 --> 00:24:11.798 Yeah. 00:24:12.178 --> 00:24:15.292 Actually a lot of, in my active days on Twitter, I maintained a 00:24:15.322 --> 00:24:19.132 list on my personal profile that was Tech plus cycling, which is just 00:24:19.132 --> 00:24:20.512 tech nerds who are into cycling. 00:24:20.512 --> 00:24:23.572 And the only way I found that is one way or the other, I saw them talking 00:24:23.572 --> 00:24:24.682 about both of those two things. 00:24:24.682 --> 00:24:25.912 And so I dumped them into a list. 00:24:25.950 --> 00:24:29.928 And so like for me, that's a very pleasant internet to have this like filtered 00:24:29.928 --> 00:24:33.408 list of people who are gonna probably be talking about tech recycling for the most. 00:24:33.483 --> 00:24:35.393 . And, and that was a really nice thing to, to see. 00:24:35.394 --> 00:24:38.419 There are a lot of creators who I follow because I think that they 00:24:38.629 --> 00:24:42.439 have an authenticity or a sort of facet of their personality that I 00:24:42.444 --> 00:24:43.759 can get into one way or the other. 00:24:43.939 --> 00:24:46.789 For some people it's, it may be just that they're like very relaxing and 00:24:46.789 --> 00:24:49.399 they have a nice voice and it's nice to listen to while I'm clattering away 00:24:49.399 --> 00:24:51.289 and writing or, or coding something up. 00:24:51.356 --> 00:24:55.348 For other people, I like to challenge my own perspectives and hear like, what, 00:24:55.348 --> 00:24:58.294 what is it like right now to be someone who's building software, for Linux or 00:24:58.294 --> 00:25:00.394 for Windows or entirely an Android? 00:25:00.834 --> 00:25:03.024 Parts of the world that I'm, I'm not super involved in. 00:25:03.099 --> 00:25:04.929 And then even still, there's definitely creators who I like 00:25:04.929 --> 00:25:07.279 to listen to who just talk about things that are interesting to me. 00:25:07.306 --> 00:25:09.326 I'll name a few kind of off the top of my head. 00:25:09.326 --> 00:25:11.750 Monica Lent is one of my favorite people online. 00:25:11.750 --> 00:25:15.432 She, runs a number of, companies and sites, but, I've recommended 00:25:15.432 --> 00:25:18.420 to CJ a couple of their courses, over, over the past few months here. 00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:22.184 One is called Blogging for Devs, which is if you're a software developer 00:25:22.184 --> 00:25:25.214 person and you wanna learn about blogging, she has a great free. 00:25:25.253 --> 00:25:28.013 Course on how you can figure out how to do that as a developer. 00:25:28.042 --> 00:25:31.187 And just as well, I think the, the advanced version of that course, or 00:25:31.187 --> 00:25:34.607 maybe the next step after that course, she has one called SEO for Devs, which 00:25:34.612 --> 00:25:37.847 is how to start to own your presence on search engines as a software developer. 00:25:37.911 --> 00:25:39.744 They're both tremendous courses and it turns out she's a 00:25:39.749 --> 00:25:40.914 really interesting person too. 00:25:40.919 --> 00:25:44.178 Like she's a, developer, she's spoken at events, she does all kinds of 00:25:44.178 --> 00:25:46.938 public speaking and stuff like that, but she runs a company that does. 00:25:46.997 --> 00:25:50.542 , analytics and, tooling for people who use affiliate marketing, which is not 00:25:50.542 --> 00:25:54.352 something I do or really probably will ever find my way into doing, but I think 00:25:54.357 --> 00:25:55.832 it's something interesting that she does. 00:25:55.832 --> 00:25:58.602 Another sort of similar, creator is Paul Jarvis. 00:25:58.676 --> 00:26:02.936 Paul Jarvis is one of the co-founders of an analytics company called Fathom. 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:05.829 He's also an author and he wrote a really great book called Company of 00:26:05.834 --> 00:26:07.689 One, which I found to be super helpful. 00:26:07.689 --> 00:26:11.649 And Company of one is about building a company that can be run by one person 00:26:11.949 --> 00:26:13.839 and can sustain the life of one person. 00:26:13.839 --> 00:26:17.769 So we, you, you know, the three of us and certainly probably a lot of 00:26:17.769 --> 00:26:20.019 the people listening live in this world, were like, the ideal is to 00:26:20.019 --> 00:26:21.339 start a billion dollar company. 00:26:22.784 --> 00:26:25.374 , I don't need a billion dollars to live happily for the rest of my life. 00:26:25.404 --> 00:26:25.644 Right? 00:26:25.644 --> 00:26:29.094 If I could start a company that made me, you know, I don't know, a hundred thousand 00:26:29.094 --> 00:26:30.744 dollars a year, that would be great. 00:26:30.744 --> 00:26:32.904 If I could start a company that made me $50,000 a year and I 00:26:32.904 --> 00:26:35.454 didn't have to do anything to maintain it, that'd be even better. 00:26:35.514 --> 00:26:38.034 And so his book kind of touches on a lot of that stuff and what it's like 00:26:38.034 --> 00:26:42.596 to run a, a hyper-focused micro company that, can, can pay for your life. 00:26:42.613 --> 00:26:45.507 And an interesting thing about him too is that he's come and gone from. 00:26:46.237 --> 00:26:47.077 publicly online. 00:26:47.167 --> 00:26:50.977 Like he runs Fathom, which is a cool company, and over the past two or three 00:26:50.977 --> 00:26:54.613 years, he has turned on and off his Twitter profile, because he's found it 00:26:54.613 --> 00:26:56.743 to be infuriating one way or the other. 00:26:56.743 --> 00:26:59.503 And I, I don't wanna take his words because I, you know, I think he's, he's 00:26:59.503 --> 00:27:03.411 got his own perspective on it, but, Him and his, co-founder of, fathom have a 00:27:03.411 --> 00:27:06.561 podcast where they talk about like their marketing strategies and stuff like that. 00:27:06.561 --> 00:27:09.107 And, what it comes down to for him is that he's got a mailing list. 00:27:09.107 --> 00:27:12.317 He has a, a newsletter list with thousands of people on it, that when he needs 00:27:12.317 --> 00:27:14.387 to promote something, he can use that. 00:27:14.387 --> 00:27:18.017 And he finds that to be far more successful, gratifying, useful, 00:27:18.147 --> 00:27:21.424 whatever, than trying to deal with Twitter and, you know, seeing who's 00:27:21.424 --> 00:27:24.677 overthrowing what country at this point because of, nonsense ruling on there. 00:27:24.677 --> 00:27:25.562 Those are sort of two good 00:27:25.567 --> 00:27:26.042 examples. 00:27:26.637 --> 00:27:30.987 Colin: Yeah, you get a few less mentions about whatever new N f T drop 00:27:30.987 --> 00:27:34.437 has happened or whatever is happening in your, in your newsletter as well. 00:27:35.262 --> 00:27:36.042 Mike B: yeah, yeah. 00:27:36.042 --> 00:27:36.762 Precisely. 00:27:37.722 --> 00:27:37.932 Yeah. 00:27:37.932 --> 00:27:38.802 There's lots of those folks. 00:27:38.807 --> 00:27:42.102 And honestly, maybe one of the things I, I owe it to the world to do is to 00:27:42.102 --> 00:27:45.112 sit down and write out these things and say like, here, if you, if you 00:27:45.112 --> 00:27:47.652 like me, you should go read these other people's stuff first, because 00:27:47.652 --> 00:27:49.182 I find them more interesting than me. 00:27:49.191 --> 00:27:51.909 And you know, there's, there's lots of people I could recommend, and that's just 00:27:51.909 --> 00:27:53.329 kind of off the top of the dome piece. 00:27:53.379 --> 00:27:56.049 Colin: What was it called when we, we had like web rings and the 00:27:56.049 --> 00:27:57.789 blog, like the little links list. 00:27:57.789 --> 00:27:58.149 Little link 00:27:58.154 --> 00:27:58.629 lists. 00:27:58.629 --> 00:28:00.009 Like let's bring the link list 00:28:00.014 --> 00:28:00.429 back. 00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:03.139 CJ: I was thinking, and I was. 00:28:04.534 --> 00:28:09.814 Have recently been interacting with the brand design team at Stripe to like redo 00:28:09.814 --> 00:28:11.284 the thumbnails for the YouTube channel. 00:28:11.284 --> 00:28:15.124 And I thought it was kind of funny how we're 30 minutes into the podcast and we 00:28:15.129 --> 00:28:20.164 haven't talked about colors and fonts and like images and layouts and there's a lot 00:28:20.164 --> 00:28:23.164 of stuff that like a lot of people might have preconceived notions about brand. 00:28:23.164 --> 00:28:30.214 And I think we kind of got into the true meat of a brand, which is kind of find 00:28:30.219 --> 00:28:31.864 your own values, find your own niche. 00:28:32.749 --> 00:28:35.899 Go out and share your knowledge and expertise with others. 00:28:36.289 --> 00:28:39.559 Be authentic, but also just like be whatever other things you 00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:42.089 value if authenticity doesn't happen to be one of them. 00:28:42.097 --> 00:28:42.722 But yeah. 00:28:42.722 --> 00:28:43.532 What is your take? 00:28:43.532 --> 00:28:46.682 I know you, you actually have like a very consistent color scheme and 00:28:46.682 --> 00:28:49.532 everything for your site, but like, does that matter for a personal brand? 00:28:49.537 --> 00:28:50.942 Like, should anyone care about that? 00:28:51.482 --> 00:28:56.066 And like, is that, is that irreverent, Mike Pink, like a custom thing that you've 00:28:56.138 --> 00:28:58.868 like figured out or what's the Yeah. 00:28:58.873 --> 00:28:59.408 What, what's your. 00:28:59.813 --> 00:29:03.473 Mike B: So a lot of the things I build are, are pink is sort 00:29:03.478 --> 00:29:06.473 of the accent color or the most forward color that I use in them. 00:29:06.653 --> 00:29:08.363 And that's because no one else uses it. 00:29:08.663 --> 00:29:10.643 Like, I don't know, I kind of like the way pink looks. 00:29:11.273 --> 00:29:13.043 in a lot of ways, and I think it's something that just 00:29:13.043 --> 00:29:14.123 stands out on the internet. 00:29:14.166 --> 00:29:17.676 You've probably seen grids of corporate logos that are all 00:29:17.676 --> 00:29:20.436 like shades of blue because blue is a comfortable color to use. 00:29:20.706 --> 00:29:23.916 And I also think it's kind of funny to fly in the face of like people's expectations 00:29:23.916 --> 00:29:27.336 that pink is this, IM masculine color and you know, men don't like it or whatever. 00:29:27.336 --> 00:29:29.256 Like, nah, it kind of just stands out to me as funny. 00:29:29.309 --> 00:29:30.301 and it turns out I like it. 00:29:30.436 --> 00:29:33.076 In, in terms of the importance of like color and theme and brand and 00:29:33.076 --> 00:29:35.146 all that, my perspective on it. 00:29:35.986 --> 00:29:36.856 Complicated. 00:29:37.156 --> 00:29:40.531 But, I think the best thing you can do is be consistent in whatever you do. 00:29:40.621 --> 00:29:44.117 So, you may not be someone who's super, visuals forward, right? 00:29:44.117 --> 00:29:47.237 I make a lot of images and things that I share with my stuff because I'm, 00:29:47.267 --> 00:29:50.641 that's a skillset I have, and it's also something that I find, rewarding to do. 00:29:50.641 --> 00:29:51.721 And, and I think it helps. 00:29:51.721 --> 00:29:54.799 But, I know there's lots of people who, super technical blog posts that 00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.829 never have a single image on them at all, and their whole site might not 00:29:57.829 --> 00:29:59.449 have any images on it, and that's fine. 00:29:59.542 --> 00:30:03.082 Be yourself and, and come up with who you are based on kind of what you 00:30:03.082 --> 00:30:06.875 actually are doing and feeling, and, that's gonna be okay because it's you. 00:30:06.883 --> 00:30:10.573 But the, the underlying thing that I think is super important no matter 00:30:10.573 --> 00:30:14.053 what the size and shape and color of your brand is, is consistency. 00:30:14.083 --> 00:30:16.513 Like pay attention to the small details and do the things 00:30:16.513 --> 00:30:18.103 you're doing consistently. 00:30:20.378 --> 00:30:22.998 Actually, an example I can think of that's a super off the wall brand 00:30:22.998 --> 00:30:25.884 is I've been, I've taken a couple of courses with this, startup called 00:30:25.944 --> 00:30:27.444 Build Space over the past few years. 00:30:27.449 --> 00:30:28.854 Their side is build space dot. 00:30:28.854 --> 00:30:31.205 So, so, really interesting. 00:30:31.205 --> 00:30:34.355 Like I think it's a a a Y Combinator startup. 00:30:34.355 --> 00:30:35.235 Maybe it might not be. 00:30:35.303 --> 00:30:39.545 Their founder is, I believe a, gen Z, fellow by the name of, FARA. 00:30:39.845 --> 00:30:43.361 And, he's one of the most off the wall wild people I've ever seen 00:30:43.366 --> 00:30:44.814 being technically professional. 00:30:44.814 --> 00:30:48.834 And one thing that he does consistently is he sends emails to the, the 00:30:48.834 --> 00:30:52.404 mailing list for Build space, and I've never seen him send an email with a 00:30:52.404 --> 00:30:53.844 capital letter in the subject line. 00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.589 Like that's, that's, nobody will tell you to do that, but that is his brand. 00:30:58.589 --> 00:30:59.729 It's all lowercase stuff. 00:30:59.729 --> 00:31:04.049 And it's like very like lingo forward and sort of like meme forward and all that. 00:31:04.049 --> 00:31:08.042 And because it's consistent, it feels like that brand, they're doing great stuff. 00:31:08.042 --> 00:31:10.133 They're helping educate thousands of people at a time. 00:31:10.156 --> 00:31:13.876 And he is sending out, you know, subject lines with like memes and, and all 00:31:13.876 --> 00:31:15.046 lowercase letters and stuff like that. 00:31:15.046 --> 00:31:17.026 And it, which just doesn't feel like something you would ever see 00:31:17.026 --> 00:31:19.936 recommended anywhere, but through and through that is who he is. 00:31:19.936 --> 00:31:21.046 That is who their brand is. 00:31:21.081 --> 00:31:23.325 And yeah, on, on their homepage it says they just raised 10 million 00:31:23.685 --> 00:31:25.423 from, Anderson Ho Horowitz. 00:31:26.113 --> 00:31:27.253 So it's gotta be working right. 00:31:27.253 --> 00:31:28.813 And that's all just consistency for me. 00:31:28.843 --> 00:31:29.563 That's the underlying 00:31:29.563 --> 00:31:30.043 message. 00:31:31.293 --> 00:31:33.903 Colin: Well, those probably stand out in your inbox too, right? 00:31:33.903 --> 00:31:36.363 Like it's something a little bit different than, than what 00:31:36.363 --> 00:31:37.923 everyone else is, is posting. 00:31:37.923 --> 00:31:41.683 And I know there's like a few newsletters that have that. 00:31:41.683 --> 00:31:45.719 I also run a co-working space and we like to use like, like we'll try, we just use 00:31:45.719 --> 00:31:47.669 the lightning emoji in all of our emails. 00:31:47.854 --> 00:31:50.854 And it tends, people are like, oh, that's the collective. 00:31:50.854 --> 00:31:52.084 Like here it comes. 00:31:52.084 --> 00:31:55.684 And I think Morning Brew had a pretty, I don't subscribe to them anymore, but 00:31:55.684 --> 00:31:59.674 it was like always something I would look for because it was always like, I 00:31:59.674 --> 00:32:02.644 think it was like the little money bag or something like that, and it's like, 00:32:02.644 --> 00:32:04.684 oh, it's a new New Morning brew here. 00:32:05.104 --> 00:32:09.034 So you know, you don't have to like go hire, like to CJ's point, like a 00:32:09.034 --> 00:32:12.354 whole marketing team to like do up, your head shots and you could just 00:32:12.354 --> 00:32:14.724 use emojis or not, or lowercase. 00:32:15.224 --> 00:32:17.351 You know, pick a color that you really like. 00:32:17.351 --> 00:32:22.115 I like that your, your pink is pretty close to the, the viva magenta 00:32:22.115 --> 00:32:25.080 the, the new Pantone color of 2023 00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:26.430 Mike B: Yeah. 00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:28.050 Colin: You can say you were there before. 00:32:28.050 --> 00:32:28.830 It got cool though, 00:32:29.630 --> 00:32:30.200 Mike B: That's right. 00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:34.160 I've, I'm omnipresent when it comes to, to pink on the internet, I think. 00:32:34.760 --> 00:32:35.330 Yeah. 00:32:35.510 --> 00:32:39.790 It's funny how the, the mind works and how we create associations with things, but, 00:32:39.795 --> 00:32:41.450 but consistency really helps with that. 00:32:41.450 --> 00:32:42.170 Like that. 00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:44.870 It is really weird to think that you could tie your brand to an emoji. 00:32:44.925 --> 00:32:48.297 But for sure there are newsletters that I get that I see the emoji in their subject 00:32:48.297 --> 00:32:52.017 liner in that little preview that that happens in my inbox and I know it's them 00:32:52.017 --> 00:32:53.817 without reading any of the words, right? 00:32:53.817 --> 00:32:56.727 Your mind can scan and see that little glyph and you have this association 00:32:56.727 --> 00:33:00.606 and you're primed to, expect that sort of experience that you get from the 00:33:00.606 --> 00:33:02.016 thing that you know, you already like. 00:33:02.016 --> 00:33:04.626 And so you're like getting a happy little boost of endorphins before 00:33:04.626 --> 00:33:07.026 you even ingest any real information. 00:33:07.093 --> 00:33:08.745 And it doesn't take a lot of work to do that. 00:33:08.745 --> 00:33:10.335 The consistency is the important part. 00:33:11.750 --> 00:33:12.325 CJ: Yeah, totally. 00:33:12.325 --> 00:33:15.715 I, I think Colin like, well, both you and Mike are really good designers, 00:33:15.715 --> 00:33:18.919 and I'm super jealous anytime I see anything that you make on the front end. 00:33:18.919 --> 00:33:23.032 But something I think also that I've noticed in your design, 00:33:23.032 --> 00:33:25.822 Colin, I, I'm assuming that you like designed a lot of the. 00:33:26.047 --> 00:33:29.767 Stuff for the collective co-working space, but also your own design. 00:33:29.797 --> 00:33:34.357 It seems like it has a lot of like Scandinavian inspiration, like Ikea 00:33:34.357 --> 00:33:39.217 style, like super thin lines, like really minimalist, super clean, 00:33:39.217 --> 00:33:41.132 like, which I've always appreciated. 00:33:41.132 --> 00:33:43.652 I'm like, damn, it's everything that you put out is always like 00:33:43.652 --> 00:33:46.912 so fresh, so, Yeah, I think, yeah. 00:33:46.912 --> 00:33:50.992 The, the, the point, the end at the end of the day is like consistency. 00:33:51.232 --> 00:33:55.413 So we've got authenticity, consistency I wanted to throw out colors 00:33:55.413 --> 00:33:58.923 or coolers.co, c o o l o rs.co. 00:33:59.283 --> 00:34:03.728 You can just like generate or, you know, generate a template or a 00:34:03.728 --> 00:34:05.708 pallet or just look at a trending. 00:34:06.643 --> 00:34:08.108 , pick a couple colors off there and be like, all right, this 00:34:08.108 --> 00:34:09.368 is my colors for my site. 00:34:09.368 --> 00:34:12.608 And use those as highlights and then just use white for everything else if 00:34:12.608 --> 00:34:14.792 you're yeah, not sure about colors. 00:34:14.842 --> 00:34:15.202 Mike B: Yeah. 00:34:15.262 --> 00:34:18.802 One of the most astonishing things I've ever learned in my life, let alone my 00:34:18.802 --> 00:34:21.142 career, is that colors are just math. 00:34:21.622 --> 00:34:25.972 Like you don't have to have some internal imbued special thing where you're an 00:34:25.977 --> 00:34:29.295 art person or a design person to be able to do good with color, and that 00:34:29.295 --> 00:34:32.505 there's lots of like great calculators and tools online to, to help you come 00:34:32.505 --> 00:34:34.123 up with colors that work well together. 00:34:34.123 --> 00:34:36.179 And are accessible that like, you know, if you're colorblind, 00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:37.572 they work for, for you as well. 00:34:37.576 --> 00:34:41.050 But like the realization that you could be good at colors without having to, I don't 00:34:41.050 --> 00:34:44.920 know, been born an artist was something that like, hit me like a ton of bricks 00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:48.255 and that was, you know, well after I got outta college, I was, working at the time 00:34:48.255 --> 00:34:51.375 and when I sort of like stumbled across this, it was like, oh, everything changed. 00:34:51.375 --> 00:34:55.635 That was when I started to feel like I could design things that looked nice and 00:34:55.635 --> 00:34:57.105 that felt like I wanted them to feel as. 00:34:58.860 --> 00:34:59.134 CJ: Totally. 00:34:59.134 --> 00:34:59.549 And. 00:35:01.139 --> 00:35:04.259 Thing to like tie into, to, to personal brand and like loop back 00:35:04.259 --> 00:35:09.269 is that it seems like through being yourself and building up this corpus 00:35:09.274 --> 00:35:13.769 of content that you're writing about, you'll back into a clear value 00:35:13.769 --> 00:35:15.659 proposition for people to follow you. 00:35:15.929 --> 00:35:21.479 But I, I'm curious if there's ways that you can sort of communicate that upfront. 00:35:21.479 --> 00:35:23.249 I know like APIs, you won't. 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.409 In the name itself, you know? 00:35:26.439 --> 00:35:26.859 Okay. 00:35:26.919 --> 00:35:29.409 We're gonna talk about API design stuff here and we're 00:35:29.409 --> 00:35:30.939 gonna learn about building APIs. 00:35:30.983 --> 00:35:33.909 Are there any other sort of techniques you can think about in terms of 00:35:34.029 --> 00:35:37.149 just like making your, the value prop really clear about what people 00:35:37.149 --> 00:35:38.919 are gonna get when they follow you? 00:35:39.609 --> 00:35:39.759 Mike B: Yeah. 00:35:39.759 --> 00:35:41.589 It's actually really funny that you bring that up. 00:35:41.589 --> 00:35:46.202 I've been, this week, helping test a course with my friends over@gymnasium.com. 00:35:46.276 --> 00:35:49.664 I worked there for a while, a a couple of, employers ago at this point. 00:35:49.714 --> 00:35:52.727 but gymnasium.com is, online courses for creatives who wanna learn 00:35:52.727 --> 00:35:53.777 how to build things for the web. 00:35:53.844 --> 00:35:57.037 .And so they're testing a course on, on a workshop, essentially 00:35:57.037 --> 00:35:58.417 on improving your portfolio. 00:35:58.417 --> 00:36:01.387 And one of the steps in that is writing an about me page that 00:36:01.387 --> 00:36:02.807 is like useful and meaningful. 00:36:02.807 --> 00:36:05.710 And it was a really helpful bit of knowledge to get from 00:36:05.715 --> 00:36:07.180 that, that if you picture. 00:36:08.205 --> 00:36:08.805 , you're about me. 00:36:08.805 --> 00:36:13.249 Page on the web, as a, a link that gets shared with you, on Slack, on Twitter, 00:36:13.249 --> 00:36:15.799 wherever, like you, one of those services where someone pays the link, 00:36:15.799 --> 00:36:18.919 you get the cover image, and you get a title and a couple of lines of text. 00:36:19.459 --> 00:36:23.833 If you can't fit enough into that to, convey why you're interesting, 00:36:23.893 --> 00:36:27.133 like you're, you've failed in creating that brand for yourself. 00:36:27.157 --> 00:36:28.777 So if. 00:36:29.542 --> 00:36:30.652 There's one thing to take away from it. 00:36:30.652 --> 00:36:35.332 It's like you should be able to fit the interesting part in the tweet and the, 00:36:35.403 --> 00:36:38.733 fleshing out what that means in the rest of your sort of brand statement or 00:36:38.733 --> 00:36:40.323 your about me page or whatever that is. 00:36:40.623 --> 00:36:45.189 And so if I printed off, you know, mike by folco.com/about and ripped off everything 00:36:45.189 --> 00:36:49.156 but the first hundred, you know, first four inches of that page, let's say you. 00:36:50.101 --> 00:36:52.426 . Either think I'm interesting or not from that, and I don't have to be 00:36:52.426 --> 00:36:54.526 interesting to everyone, but you should get an idea of whether you're 00:36:54.526 --> 00:36:57.356 in the right place by just seeing the first little bit of what I've shared. 00:36:57.384 --> 00:37:01.059 And so the way I do that is, Try and write as much as I can. 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:03.879 Distill the common themes outta that, and then start like shredding 00:37:03.884 --> 00:37:06.599 things away until I can get to like what are the most interesting 00:37:06.604 --> 00:37:07.659 things that have written about me. 00:37:08.169 --> 00:37:10.449 APIs you won't hate is really cool because it does that, it's 00:37:10.449 --> 00:37:11.739 kind of funny and sarcastic. 00:37:11.739 --> 00:37:14.049 It talks about APIs, it talks about the problems that a lot 00:37:14.049 --> 00:37:15.459 of people ha have with APIs. 00:37:15.464 --> 00:37:18.219 Is that like, I don't know, A lot of 'em really suck to use. 00:37:18.337 --> 00:37:19.927 For my own brand. 00:37:19.927 --> 00:37:22.477 I think the challenge there is, is like, how do I tell people that? 00:37:22.477 --> 00:37:24.727 Like, I don't know, I'm just trying to help, man. 00:37:24.877 --> 00:37:27.307 Like that's the whole dream here is I wanna help and, and give back 00:37:27.367 --> 00:37:30.943 with, whatever ways I can about building software, building companies, 00:37:30.943 --> 00:37:32.143 designing products and all that. 00:37:32.503 --> 00:37:34.273 And so I don't think I've answered that question for 00:37:34.273 --> 00:37:35.980 myself yet, in a succinct way. 00:37:35.980 --> 00:37:38.854 But the challenge is really like, what are the, what, what are the 10 words I 00:37:38.854 --> 00:37:42.544 can say to get you interested in what I have to say, as opposed to navigating away 00:37:42.544 --> 00:37:44.364 from this link, this page, whatever it. 00:37:46.009 --> 00:37:46.489 Colin: Definitely. 00:37:46.489 --> 00:37:46.819 Yeah. 00:37:47.129 --> 00:37:51.266 To kind of put a bow on this conversation, we kind of have talked around it, 00:37:51.271 --> 00:37:55.716 but why ultimately, should someone think about building their dev brand? 00:37:55.721 --> 00:37:58.176 Or have you seen any benefits of doing that, that have 00:37:58.181 --> 00:38:00.426 helped you and your career? 00:38:00.576 --> 00:38:03.306 You know, now you're thinking building a new company. 00:38:03.306 --> 00:38:06.376 What does that bring to the table for you and why Should. 00:38:06.696 --> 00:38:10.446 Maybe should, or maybe even shouldn't someone consider building out their. 00:38:12.281 --> 00:38:12.576 Mike B: Sure. 00:38:12.846 --> 00:38:15.333 At its most basic, it creates opportunities for you. 00:38:15.333 --> 00:38:16.815 And that can come in a lot of different ways. 00:38:16.820 --> 00:38:19.695 By, by having a u r URL I can point people to, to say like, these are 00:38:19.695 --> 00:38:22.215 the things I'm interested in and that I've done and that I thought about. 00:38:22.233 --> 00:38:25.219 It automatically gives me credibility in the subject 00:38:25.224 --> 00:38:26.239 matter that I've written about. 00:38:27.104 --> 00:38:31.647 So like I've skipped a lot of, lines for applying for jobs, for example, by 00:38:31.647 --> 00:38:33.357 saying like, oh yeah, I do react stuff. 00:38:33.357 --> 00:38:36.432 Like, here's this corpus of posts I have on React, online. 00:38:36.612 --> 00:38:39.446 That could also be, you know, contributions to open source stuff. 00:38:39.446 --> 00:38:42.026 By the way, you could just point someone to your GitHub profile and say, go look 00:38:42.026 --> 00:38:44.816 at all the things I've done, you know, if, if you need credibility, The, the 00:38:44.816 --> 00:38:47.696 most important thing for me, I think, is that it's going to create a longer 00:38:47.696 --> 00:38:50.096 lasting brand for me than Mike Works. 00:38:50.156 --> 00:38:51.866 Mike worked at Stripe, right? 00:38:51.866 --> 00:38:54.787 Like, it was very useful and, and helpful for me to say, Hey, I'm 00:38:54.787 --> 00:38:56.017 a developer advocate at Stripe. 00:38:56.051 --> 00:38:58.961 But I knew before I started that job that that wasn't going to 00:38:58.961 --> 00:39:00.341 be a thing that lasted forever. 00:39:00.761 --> 00:39:04.001 And so being able to say like, I worked at Stripe because I did all this 00:39:04.391 --> 00:39:07.119 interesting stuff, like that's why I'm an interesting person, is really helpful. 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:08.791 I, I do sort of fundamentally believe that. 00:39:08.791 --> 00:39:12.317 Site that you own, whatever it is, is maybe one of the most valuable things 00:39:12.317 --> 00:39:15.677 you can create as a developer because you create an audience for yourself. 00:39:15.977 --> 00:39:20.267 My personal site generates something like 10 to 20,000 views a month at this point. 00:39:20.323 --> 00:39:23.024 And that's 10 to 20,000 opportunities to sell things to people. 00:39:23.029 --> 00:39:26.692 If one day I decide I wanna sell things to people, Just as well, I think even more 00:39:27.092 --> 00:39:29.872 valuable than my own site is the people who've given me access to their inbox. 00:39:29.872 --> 00:39:32.692 And that's, you know, the, the newsletter that I've been writing and focusing a lot 00:39:32.692 --> 00:39:37.132 of energy in is because I want people to remember that I exist now that I'm not 00:39:37.137 --> 00:39:41.162 tweeting as often or at all, really, I want to expand that list so that when I 00:39:41.167 --> 00:39:44.067 have something, if I ever have something that I wanna sell, I can do that. 00:39:44.067 --> 00:39:45.509 and I, I can also. 00:39:45.577 --> 00:39:47.240 , Show people that I'm trustworthy, right? 00:39:47.240 --> 00:39:49.010 I'm not gonna spam you with garbage. 00:39:49.010 --> 00:39:51.500 Like I, I'll only send a newsletter if I have something interesting 00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:53.750 to say, and I'll try and be regular about how I do that. 00:39:53.750 --> 00:39:55.940 But like, also feel free to unsubscribe. 00:39:55.940 --> 00:39:56.480 I'll be here. 00:39:56.600 --> 00:39:59.150 You know, I'm, I don't have any secrets to keep from you and it's a 00:39:59.160 --> 00:40:00.930 privileged relationship to begin with. 00:40:00.945 --> 00:40:04.769 And so zooming out and backpedaling from all of that, like, I think the 00:40:04.769 --> 00:40:08.529 important thing to do is to find out the things that you are energized by. 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:10.749 For me, it tends to be writing more than making videos. 00:40:10.796 --> 00:40:13.377 And I think I, I would characterize maybe as cj, you seem to be a 00:40:13.377 --> 00:40:14.967 very natural, like video producer. 00:40:14.982 --> 00:40:18.063 and and that's something that, is a hard-earned skill for me. 00:40:18.063 --> 00:40:21.334 I'm not good at making videos in the same way as, I am writing so, 00:40:22.074 --> 00:40:25.224 Find what's good for you, do it, and do it as regularly as possible. 00:40:25.284 --> 00:40:28.387 In the early days of owning my own site, I had a rule for myself 00:40:28.387 --> 00:40:31.387 that every Friday I would publish something, and for something like 20 00:40:31.387 --> 00:40:32.857 weeks straight, I published articles. 00:40:32.862 --> 00:40:35.707 And that what gave me a really, really good springboard to jump off of. 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.527 And I think if you can be consistent with yourself and honest with yourself 00:40:38.527 --> 00:40:41.887 in that consistency, doesn't matter if it's a podcast or a YouTube channel 00:40:41.887 --> 00:40:46.226 or a blog or TikTok or whatever, being consistent for, I don't know, 00:40:46.226 --> 00:40:47.666 half a year puts you in the top. 00:40:48.001 --> 00:40:50.011 2% of most of those things. 00:40:50.083 --> 00:40:52.283 And, and you'll eventually build momentum from that. 00:40:52.327 --> 00:40:56.240 You just have to, to be dedicated to it and also be, you know, consistent and 00:40:56.300 --> 00:40:59.300 have, have your own thoughts and feelings and be an interesting person and all those 00:40:59.300 --> 00:41:01.520 other things that I, stated as easy facts. 00:41:01.606 --> 00:41:02.086 It's work. 00:41:02.146 --> 00:41:04.726 It really is work, but it's, it's fun and I think it's really rewarding. 00:41:04.788 --> 00:41:07.128 And so you should start, start like straight away, like if 00:41:07.128 --> 00:41:09.018 you're listening to this and thinking, what could I write about? 00:41:09.528 --> 00:41:11.508 Write down the next three things that you find interesting this 00:41:11.508 --> 00:41:12.438 week, and write about those. 00:41:13.993 --> 00:41:14.248 CJ: Totally. 00:41:15.035 --> 00:41:17.250 That's a great little bow on top, I think. 00:41:17.670 --> 00:41:19.636 I think it's, it's a good place to wrap it up. 00:41:19.636 --> 00:41:24.732 So yeah, as always, you can head over to build and learn.dev to check out all the 00:41:24.732 --> 00:41:26.442 links and resources in the show notes. 00:41:26.892 --> 00:41:30.356 This has been basically an episode plugging tons and tons of Mike's stuff. 00:41:30.356 --> 00:41:32.606 But Mike, do you have anything else that you wanted to, to 00:41:32.611 --> 00:41:34.346 drop in before we, we close out? 00:41:36.381 --> 00:41:36.758 Mike B: Yeah. 00:41:36.776 --> 00:41:39.552 You know, i, I, I will beg you kindly to include, a link to 00:41:39.552 --> 00:41:41.007 my site in your show notes. 00:41:41.056 --> 00:41:43.636 Beyond that, I think, like I don't have all the answers. 00:41:43.636 --> 00:41:46.216 You shouldn't be coming to me for answers if you're a, a person 00:41:46.216 --> 00:41:47.326 online looking to do things. 00:41:47.331 --> 00:41:50.446 But if you think I can help you, if you think what I've said is 00:41:50.446 --> 00:41:51.899 interesting, feel free to reach out. 00:41:51.899 --> 00:41:55.008 I have a million ways to contact me on my site, and I'm always 00:41:55.008 --> 00:41:58.042 interested in talking to people who, have, have interesting thoughts and 00:41:58.042 --> 00:41:59.242 have interesting things to share. 00:41:59.242 --> 00:42:01.031 So, feel free, I try to be an open door. 00:42:01.092 --> 00:42:01.752 Colin: Fantastic. 00:42:01.872 --> 00:42:03.192 Thanks for joining us, Mike. 00:42:04.062 --> 00:42:04.482 Mike B: of course. 00:42:04.487 --> 00:42:05.442 Thank you so much for having me.